to the washington journal on this sunday, march 13. washington is grappling with how to deal with record high gas prices as the cost is causing short-term inflation with other goods as well. this morning, we want you to tell the president and lawmakers how this is impacting you. if you live in the eastern part of the country, (202) 748-8000. if you live in the mountain pacific area, (202) 748-8001. you can also text us with your

thoughts with your first name, city and state at (202) 748-8003 . you can join us on facebook. you can send a tweet. as the gas a price was going up before russia's invasion of ukraine it, now that the u.s. and the u.k. banned oil imports from russia, the price has gone up every day since. here is the president morning americans of surging prices. >> the decision today is not without cost at home. the war his hurt american families of the gas pump. since putin began his military buildup, the price of gas has gone up $.75. with this action, it's going to go up further. i'm going to do every thing i can to minimize his price hike here at home. in coordination with partners,

we are releasing 60 million barrels of oil from our reserves. half of that is coming from the united states. we are taking steps to ensure a reliable supply of global energy. we are going to keep working with every tool to protect american families and businesses. let me say this. to the oil and gas companies and the finance firms that back them, we understand prudence war is causing prices to rise. that is self-evident. but, it's no excuse to exercise excessive price increases. for any kind of effort to exploit the situation for american consumers. his aggression has cost us all. there is no time for price gouging. i want to be clear about we will not tolerate. i will also acknowledge those

firms are pulling out of russia and joining the other businesses that are reading by example. this is a timer we have to do our part. host: president biden to americans earlier this week. how are rising gas prices impacting you. take a look at some of the headlines. this is npr. record gas prices hitting americans with inflation already surging. we have this from usa today. americans will feel the pain of high gas prices. will they be ok to pay more to support ukraine. here is market watch. it feels like we are being robbed. no more driving grandkids, americans adapt to rising gas prices. we will go to rob in new york. what is it like for you? how are you feeling the pinch?

caller: i think it cost me $15 more to fill up my tank yesterday. that was two days ago. it's a patriotic thing to do at this point. if you compared to the sacrifices that ukrainians are making, being bombed out of their homes, it's a lot less of a sacrifice. could you imagine if we had to go to war? what the cost would be to -- how we would take a hit? what do we spend in afghanistan in a rack? i pay $15 more, i have a few extra bucks. some families are tighter. it's a sacrifice i think we have to make for what's going on in the world at the moment. it's a small sacrifice to make.

host: how will you adjust? you pay $15 more, how would you adjust? caller: everything is the same. if i have to work an extra hour a week here or there, if i need to make a few extra dollars, look at the wages, how wages have come up. i salary has come up. the cost of living is up. we have extra income. the unemployment situation is good. god bless america, god bless you, greta. you do a great job. god bless c-span. let's all be in this together and not throw fiery arrows at each other. let's hope that the ukrainians come out of this well, in better

form than they are currently in. host: here is one of our viewers with a tweet to us. cj in minneapolis, let's go to you. how are you feeling? caller: good morning to you, c-span. i just want to add in, i drive a 2018 kia forte. my car is so economical that i get 392 miles to a gas -- tank of gas. i pay about $40. i get such good gas mileage that it doesn't hurt me that much.

other people that don't have that luxury with older vehicles, i can understand their concern. the political people that are in charge, they are doing this to make the current administration look bad. i could be wrong. host: how are you feeling it in other places? it's not just high gas prices. caller: i'm a veteran. i go to the v.a. for all of my health care and things i need. right now, i am retired. for me, i do help a lot of people out. there's nothing i can do but just do the best we can with what we've got to work with. host: we will go to new bedford, massachusetts. paul is watching us there. caller: good morning.

regarding your question it, yesterday, the gas price went up while i was at the pump. host: you saw the numbers turn? caller: yes. the initial sign was $4.25. at the pump it was flashing $4.35 a gallon. like the first caller from new york, it's a small sacrifice to make in the bigger picture. i totally agree with him. what we should do anyway to be responsible, fink of it as an efficiency thing. i make my shopping rounds as efficiently as i can. don't joyride. cut back. cut back on the way you use gas. that's what i can offer. host: you heard the president say he is going to release 50

million gallons of oil. the united states will be releasing 30 million barrels of oil. this is from business insider. the u.s. release will come from the strategic petroleum reserve, a network of underground oil storage units meant to stabilize oil supply in times of need. this was written a week ago. the average price rose to $3.61.

it now sits nearly $.90 higher than one year ago. it goes on to talk about how their strategic reserve works. the release would represent a relatively small share of oil production and demand. according to the eia, the u.s. consumed 18 million barrels per day in 2020. the newly announced release would cover less than two days of domestic demand. roy is in georgia. good morning. caller: good morning. i have a small car and an suv. we drive the small car a lot more than the suv. instead of going into the drive and restaurants, we go in because it takes less time and

we save more gas. i just want to mention one thing. if a watchman sees a sword coming and he doesn't warn the people, the blood is on their own hands. president trump warned nato and he warned germany about dependence on oil from russia. he warned of the increase in gas prices. all these warnings came before they manifested. i wish c-span would try to bridge the division in the country. he really could. if you would show some of the truth. we know for a fact that the truth is not shown on certain networks. if you would show trump talking to nato and warning them about this. that would do a lot to bridge

this division between us. host: i'm going to show you from axios, who imports the most oil from russia. the biggest importer is china, followed by journey and the netherlands. many eastern european countries are heavily dependent on russia. take a look at these countries and their imports as we hear from danny in colorado. caller: good morning. how are you doing? i sent an email to the white house in january concerning the price of gas. the republicans and trump threatened that the price would go up.

host: how is this impacting you? caller: it's not impacting me right now. i am retired. i don't drive around all that much. i do drive to a part-time job to go to work. it will affect me as far as the price of gas goes. what the consumer should realize we can boycott the oil companies and corporations. they don't win a give up their profit earnings or their shareholders. those of people need to bite the bullet right now. the shareholders and the profiteers, the prophet should be cut back. the president -- back in the nixon era, he froze the price of goods. as a matter of national security, the president should issue a 399 it, a price freeze

on gas. the consumer should help by organizing some type of boycotts of the profits the oil companies make could be cut. we to organize a boycott where we shop for gas certain days of the week. until the companies start to realize they need to bring prophets down to help us get through this crisis of war, we could have gas rationing back in world war ii. the president should issue a price freeze on the price of gas i let the oil companies take a cut in profits and let them bite the bullet instead of the consumer. host: one about a gas tax holiday? caller: i don't know if we should do that. we are taking money away from our tax base on different things. i don't know that yet. we should release some of the oil reserve to bring the gas down.

when the republicans are not an office, they raise the price of gas. host: we will listen to the leader of the republicans in the house, kevin mccarthy talked about various proposals to bring down the price of gas. >> not only did republicans warn this would happen, we offered solutions to the problem. build a pipeline, increase production, fast-track energy exports to our allies. democrats plan to lower prices by blaming russia. by electric vehicles, beg opec for a bailout. you've watched time and again where the democratic leadership goes after american companies that produce energy. they ask countries with dictators and other leaders to produce more.

the president said the buck stops with me. he said he can't do much about it now, russia is responsible. the secretary of transportation says to buy a $56,000 electric car. the state department was to trade one dictator for another. host: why are gas prices rising before the russian invasion? the new york times reports, starting with a quote. covid changed the game. u.s. oil production fell the last eight months of president trump's tenure. is that his fault? no. when the virus took hold, demand right up and prices plummeted. the bench park price fell to

negative $37 63 cents. -- $37.63. demand outpaced supply. most attributable to opec, an alliance of oil producing companies that control the supply to limit increases in production according to energy information administration. domestic production remains low, as capital spending declined and investors remained reluctant to provide financing for the oil industry. axios reports that the financiers are reluctant to continue to invest in a boom and bust industry. since production is low, it takes a long time to get the rigs back online. tom in maryland, we are asking you to tell washington how the

gas prices are impacting you. go ahead. caller: good morning. number one it, i'm going to show my age ever so slightly. this isn't the first time that gas prices have soared. during the bush era, they went flying skyhigh in price. americans really changed their way of driving. you didn't see as many cars on the roads. today's problem, people are complaining. you still see a lot of cars on the road. as far as the way i've changed, i am retired. i did change the way instead of going to the store to pick up a gallon of milk, you pick up other things so you don't have to make that trip so many times.

what people have to do, they have to change the way they are driving. we blame russia, but to my understanding, we were only taking 3% from russia. that's what i am seeing. there might be price gouging, once again in the gas company did price gouging. i do have oil stocks. i am doing very well. if we are having a problem with pricing with russia, why is my stock price doing so well? thank you for listening to me. host: u.s. oil imports from russia in 2021 were 245 million barrels. 7.9% imports. who sends the most oil to the

united states? it is canada, mexico, saudi arabia, russia. here is john on twitter. mike in ohio. caller: good morning, credit. thank -- greta. my heart goes out to the people of ukraine and russia also. what is sad is the one narrative we are hearing, for over 20 years while we devastated the middle east in several countries, driven by the greed of the military-industrial complex and the oil companies, the same players. there was not much coverage of that.

illegal invasions of countries that had nothing to do with 9/11 or hurting an american. it's entirely different, the narrative is like the covid coverage. anyone who deviates from that script is canceled or deplatformed, suppressed. host: tie this to gas prices and how it is impacting. caller: it is war on the working poor. we've been under siege for two years through a shocking event that we are not totally sure what the origins are. here we have inflation rising with no ceiling already. the fuel prices, for anyone who drives for living, they understand. it's very difficult. your margins are squeezed.

it's almost not worth going to work if you are for living. truck divers number one, that convoy it was covered up. there was 24/7 coverage of this invasion by russia. host: joan sends us a text this morning. higher gas, higher food, higher insurance prices. wendell is in california. caller: what's going on? host: how are you feeling the pinch? caller: we live in a capitalistic society. people want to make money here. the big companies are going to make their money. all americans have to do is just stop.

don't pay your bills for a week and see what they do. we have to have strong leadership that stands up for us. we've got joe biden, he's the king of america. he's got to stand up for the people. they've got enough oil. we shouldn't be paying this much . all he's got to do is put cap on it. they will make it up down the road like they've always done. host: what about a gas tax holiday? caller: it should be taken away. why are we paying taxes on gas? host: there are calls for washington make that happen. the federal gas tax and there are state gas taxes well. they vary across the country. gary is in virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. it's amazing, the horses of the

apocalypse, it's like there's a rodeo. we've got famine in yemen. we've got the plague and its worldwide. we've got war. what a situation we are in. about this gas, if we stitched -- switched out buses and trucks to natural gas, it is 85% cleaner than diesel fuel. it is one third cheaper. it is locally produced. when we are producing it, we are producing it with fracking. we shouldn't be fracking with water in sand. host: we lost you. caller: those are finite diminishing resources. we should be fracking with co2.

that is what is giving us a lot of these -- the coronavirus. you put co2 into a jar and cover it up, in 17 weeks you will have multi colored fungi, unlike if you just use air without extra co2. it will be blue, great, that's it. you get some exotic strains. that's the reason we've got to get rid of this co2. use it for fracking. host: frank is in oregon. good morning to you. caller: good morning.

a lot of callers already stole my thunder. the point that i wanted to make is that right now as of today, it's not affecting me. i filled up last week. it's amazing when we thought $3.99 was cheap gas. that is going to affect me in the future. one truck driver said one tank of diesel fuel for his tractor-trailer was $1300. were going to pay that for each truck. it's going to affect us. what needs to be done is they need to put a freeze on it. when i start driving, gas was 22.3 cents. capitalism, the price is always going to rise. host: gregory in illinois.

good morning to you. caller: how are you? i don't know what to say. i'm 64. we've been through this so many times. it goes up, it goes down. there are no price controls. a lot of people are thinking different things. i understand that. i don't want to be political, when trump was here we had to dollar gas -- two dollars per gallon gas. they won us to lead. when we -- when gas is down to $30 a barrel and they do something bad? host: i just read from the new

york times and other outlets that demand plummeted during covid. people weren't driving as much. they weren't going out. production fell. caller: that's true. covid had a lot to do with everything. even before that, prices were more in line. it's kind of ridiculous. knowing what we can supply. i don't think it's a political thing. yes, it is a political thing. biden declared war against the fuel companies. now we are talking about price freezes. that didn't work back years ago when we had gas lines in the

70's. host: the president defended his record against republican criticism on domestic production. >> it is simply not true that my administration or policies are held holding back -- are holding back affection. even in the pandemic, companies pumped more oil during my first year than my predecessors first year. we have record levels of production and we are on track to set a record for next year. in the united states, 90% of onshore oil production takes place on land that isn't owned or the federal government. of the remaining 10% that occurs on federal land, the industry has millions of acres leased. they have 9000 permits to drill now. they could be drilling right now.

they have 9000 permits to drill onshore that are already approved. let me be clear. they are not using them for production now. these are the facts. we should be honest about the facts. host: president biden defending his record. we are asking you to tell him and the lawmakers how gas prices are impacting you. what are you seeing at the pump? what are you cutting back on? what are you doing without? that is our conversation with all of you this morning. if you live in the eastern central part of the country, (202) 748-8000. if you live the mountain pacific area, (202) 748-8001. we would love for you to join us via text. include your first name, city, and state at (202) 748-8003.

you can also post on facebook. steven in michigan sends us a text. axios writes this:

let's hear from brett in indiana. good morning. caller: good morning. it's affecting everybody here in rockport, at the store, at the gas station, everything you do. what i think is the truck drivers need to unite in this country and shut this country down for week until biden if he doesn't open up the oil production again and have us energy independent, if we don't see no improvement, we are going to shut her down again longer. that's all i have to say.

host: jeff in florida. caller: hi there. i'm a big statistics person. i take a lot of pictures. on election day, gas was $1.69. everybody is talking about how to year ago. as of today, it is triple that. the end of the year, it was nearly double that. to use the cdc numbers, more people died last year than the year before. were we really improving? the only difference is joe biden. the people that voted for joe biden don't want to take credit for what he did. we should set the price of oil at something. what if the food service people take five dollars an hour.

that's not how it works. if you just stop making things and let the economy work, we will work our way out of this. host: you just heard the president say there are -- that the companies have the permits, that they are choosing not to drill. this is from axios. drillers haven't returned to 2019 levels because investors are calling for an end to boom and bust cycles. the industry is suffering from supply chain problems and labor shortages that make it harder to rapidly scale up production. how do you respond to that? caller: the drilling permits that they've given, when they drill for oil, you have to test. even though it costs money to do that, there may not be any oil where you test. you don't know.

the science that he is decided these of the permits we are going to give you our insights where there is no oil. when he's talking about labor, we weren't having this problem. can nobody sit there and look at that. all you had to do was nothing. trump had the border shut down. prices were low. he gave a vaccine to work with. russia wasn't doing anything. host: let's take this to a personal level. how is this impacting you? what are you doing differently? caller: i have had to up my prices. from going from $1.69, i travel 1000 miles to get my product, it

pushes my price up. i have to price -- push that on to my consumer. these big rigs, electric doesn't work on those. the trucks that haul things, these are running off diesel, which is more than gas. people want to make an argument out of this. host: this is what roseanne in san diego has to say. j in virginia. caller: how are you? i really like what you have to say. if everybody would stop and back

up just a little bit, the gas prices were going up anyway before the war started. that's what i don't understand. joe biden is blaming him for all of this. the gas prices was going up before the war started. host: we read that earlier. how are you responding? caller: i am lucky. i don't have a car. not yet. host: do you see it in other goods? caller: everything has gone up. what's really good for everybody , they got a raise. if they raise all the other stuff up, why even have a raise? host: this is from the new york times. higher prices and higher interest rates, new data that shows prices of food and rent continue their climb.

jeff, good morning. >> the first day biden was in office, he canceled and war, enough petroleum for the u.s. for 100 years. you can't say it's not his fault. he also canceled keystone. you are super o quick defending this administration and axios,

they are the ones were pushing for the collusion. that all turned out to be lies. host: you don't believe the company that was building a keystone stopped the project in 2021? you don't believe that? caller: they go with futures. that's what the market is all about. brain-dead biden, he canceled everything. if he would've stayed in the basement, this country would be running smoothly. host: let's listen to steve scalise. he also made similar arguments to that viewer about what the president needs to do with his energy policy. >> the highest price in the

history of america is today. you are feeling the pain of a failed strategy on energy. he has made our country dependent on foreign sources when we can produce here enough in america, of course, the keystone pipeline it, that is oil from canada. they can send more than we get from russia. he said no to that. there is just days before prudent invaded ukraine. federal lands, private lands, he can reverse that today. not a single new permit for a pipeline anywhere in america. there are dozens of those permits sitting on their desk ready to go.

send energy to our allies so they don't need to get it from any bad dictator. host: steve scully's of louisiana. bonnie is in mississippi. caller: how are you? host: how are gas prices impacting you in mississippi? caller: very high. too much. host: what are you doing? caller: you have to buy it if you have to go to work. host: how much more is it costing you? caller: probably about $30. i use to philip for -- fill up for 25. host: what you trying to do to make up for that? caller: you can't make up for it. biden started when he went into

office and he signed the bill to stop the keystone pipeline. he planned what he was going to do. he wanted the other countries to be able to buy for him. if we had stayed in business with where trump set us up, we could supply the world. he cut us off intentionally, he is going to do saul this energy. we don't have our energy system. how could he do that? why would he use all the resources you have in america until you could produce cars. he is supposed to represent everyone. he wouldn't contact tesla. this is why he was buying it from russia. host: here is joseph in north

port florida. gas prices aren't impacting me. adjusted for inflation, gas should be three dollars $.50. this could be reduced. diesel prices need to come down. this affects all industries. others are calling for a gas tax holiday. the federal gas tax. richard in florida, how is this impacting you? caller: very much so. i am disabled. i am on a fixed income. everything is difficult in the world. it all comes from the top. who is in the top seat? i don't want to be disrespectful.

it starts with him and and our government. the people in the united states are losing faith in the government. host: john is in oregon. caller: we are the bad over here. our local gas station just went up to five dollars per gallon. you find a video of biden saying to the young girl on stage that he is going to shut the oil industry down if elected. now, he's saying it isn't my fault. that's all i've got to say. host: kenneth, good morning.

caller: it's amazing how this country is so divided and so uneducated about this oil. oil is a global commodity. it does not stay here. when they started sending checks out, every thing started going out. they started price gouging. they are trying to wreck this presidency. all of those big people to top started checking prices up. they are doing a lot of price gouging right now. that keystone pipeline, it would take years to build it. we were not energy dependent. they believed that lie. all of those -- oil is on the global market.

that oil was going down to those refineries and going overseas. it was never going to stay here to start with. you need to get educated and stop being a grin and let people fool you that we were energy independent. the people that run the oil market are the ones jacket up. host: from the energy information agency, since 2010, the united states is exported more refined petroleum products including diesel fuel, gas liquids, gasoline then it has imported. net exports of refined trillium grew to 3.3 million -- petroleum grew to 3.3 million. we have exported more than we have imported. good morning. caller: these high gas prices

hit us hard, especially us retirees that are on a fixed income. with social security and some of us have pensions from the union. the stimulus checks under president trump really helped the situation. he kept the gas prices down. in florida, we were paying, the low was one dollar 43 per gallon. that was good. now it's like five dollars per gallon. when you are on social security, it's really tough making mortgage payments, car payments, insurance. host: are you making an

adjustment? are you doing without? caller: there are a few things we have to do without. we have no choice. host: like what? what are you doing without? caller: we used to go out to eat at restaurants and things like that. now, that's been cut back severely. with our economy, one thing affects another. it's like a big round circle. pretty soon, what goes around comes around. host: let's hear from gary in san diego. caller: hello. good morning. it is essentially changed our budget.

food prices, clothing, home repair, everything is on the rise. i've been a democratic constituent for most of my life. at this point, i am confused. he doesn't seem to have the best interest of his constituents. he is catering to big pharma, to the oil industry, why are we causing the problem with ukraine. we've got no strategic interest over there. the thing is, if russia tries to put missiles in cuba, we were talking about nuclear war.

he's not politically savvy. he knows that russia is not going to stand by and let us put bases on their border with ukraine. host: we are going to talk about the fear of nuclear war coming up. we've got about 10 minutes left in this conversation about how higher gas prices are impacting you. as with everything, prices affect those with little extra to spend. it affects people with jobs who require driving. choice in seattle. how are you today? caller: i am fine. it's the first time i've ever called in. we can't always blame it on the president. this has been going on for years.

like that person said, big cars take more gas. just be grateful. we don't have anybody attacking us over here. if we have to pay more for gas right now, we will go down. we've got to worry about nothing happening. be blessed that we are safe. host: what are you doing to adjust? caller: when i go, i try to make a circle. if i have to go out, i go to the doctor, i go to the bank. i make a trip and do it in one day. i have metro miles. i pay so much for using my car.

i saved myself not wasting time going every day out and running around. i limit to what i need to do. host: you've seen prices of medicine and food go up in seattle? caller: it's going to happen. i called to complain about a product. i couldn't get my crackers. no one had any crackers on the shelf. i called the company. they told me we are not getting people to come into work. they are fighting wages. we've got truck drivers that are not picking up the product to deliver to the stores. you've got people all over doing stuff. it isn't just the price of gas. host: greg is in colorado. let's hear from you. caller: good morning. i would just like to say it's a

small town of about 5000. our gas price right now is $3.99. we complain about gas prices. we've got it made. in europe, gas is $10 a gallon. i am so sick of hearing these people calling in, especially republicans, driving around in their giant pickup trucks, diesel trucks, the gentleman from arkansas said it well. people need to learn what's going on with oil. the keystone pipeline was not for us. that oil was going right through the country ready to pollute anywhere it leaked and it was going to china. i am so sick of hearing people

say we need to reopen the keystone pipeline. it was never open, not even close. we have never been energy independent. host: when you say it was never open, are you referring to what percent of it was built? caller: yes. 10% was built. you hear the other gentlemen calling insane the truckers should stop trucking for a week. guess what? you know where most of them are disappearing to three usually carrying our products? they are working for amazon. the biggest price gouges in the world. i'm sorry. we all just need to accept the fact that oil prices go up and down. joe biden has nothing to do with it. thank you very much. have a great show.

host: cleveland? caller: yes. i haven't seen the price of gas for one dollar 60 in about five years. host: gas last year was what? caller: it was $2.41. when this idiot said he makes people not trust the government, people stopped tromping the government would donald trump got to be president. host: south carolina, what are you doing to adjust to higher gas prices? caller: i've had to re-sign contracts.

i do a lot of home repairs. i have to drive a bigger truck to carry heavy products back and forth. it affects small business when you're doing repairs, when you have signed contracts and the price of wood and miscellaneous becomes higher. you have to go back to the homeowner in order to readjust the price. sometimes you have to kill the deal. they don't want to pay for the adjustment on it. it affects you in many different ways. having the government fix it, bring the prices down. it affects one direction in a business deal. host: you say the government

needs to bring the price down it, how can they do that? would a gas tax holiday help? caller: you see gas is back down , they do seem to figure out a set price where it doesn't keep going up and down. that falls back on your local senators and how they are doing their bids. each senator has their own job for each state. everyone needs to come together and play the violin and do the right thing. host: how are your customers reacting when you need to revise the contract? caller: they tell you you should've thought of that six months ago. they put the blame on you. they need the work done. i need to stay working. you kind of have to eat it.

sometimes, it's between $5,000 and $10,000. the stores are not going to change prices. host: that was stewart in south carolina. pennsylvania, linda is next. caller: i just want to say for me, it's a double-edged sword. with higher gas prices, you have typical chain reactions. higher prices at the restaurant, at the department store. on one side, you have to plan every trip. i live in a very rural farming county. our stores are geared for that. you really have to plan each trip. that is one side of it. the other side is positive.

before this, we had a huge influx of people coming up from downtown to our local stores, cleaning out our store shelves faster. we had a large influx of new york people coming up into the county. all of that seems to have died back. we don't have that influx coming in. the streets are back to normal. the traffic is down everywhere. it is a double-edged sword for this rural community. host: what is it like where you live? caller: it's pretty expensive. i will probably end up spending just to get to work and back,

$6,000 this year. just on fuel. host: what are you doing to adjust? caller: i call diet -- the bidet . i'm getting skinny. host: you are cutting back on food? caller: it is all we can do. we have no control over it, that type of thing. right now, $30 gets you five gallons of gas. how far would even the little car get you on five gallons of gas? before a year ago, $30 would get a little car almost a full tank

of gas, and you could probably run it for a couple of week. now you might run it for two days. host: we will return to this conversation later. we are going to take a break right now. when we come back we will talk to ian johnson about china and russia' growing alliance and whats it means for the russia- ukraine conflict. later we are joined by the author of the book " the rise of nuclear fear." we will be right back. ♪ >> this week on the c-span network, both chambers of congress are in session. the house votes to revoke russia's regular trade relations

. they will also take up the emergency coronavirus pandemic relief bill. on monday at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span poland's foreign minister who chairs the organization for security and cooperation in europe briefs the european security council. tuesday at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span state officials testify on their response to the rising authoritarianism around the globe. senior pentagon officials speak before the armed forces committee. defense department intelligence leaders testify before the house armed services committee. watch on c-span now, our free

video app. head over to c-span.org anytime. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> there are a lot of places to get political information, but only at c-span do you get it from the source. no matter where you are from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, outward forward. america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: ian johnson is with us this morning. he is the china studies senior

fellow on the council of foreign relations. does china have a role? guest: china has forged a tight partnership with russia and i think it is quite concerned that it has tied itself to this country that is now engaged in a debacle but it does not seem to be able to change its position too much. it wants to position itself as a neutral mediator but it is not able to play that role. a lot of people wish it would have a direct role. host: how is china tied to russia? guest: china and the soviet union were tight allies until

the 60's. they fought a border war and then in the 80's, 90's and 2000s the relationship normalized and now it has gotten warmer. china's problem is that it does not have allies in the world. it does not have any major allies like the united states does. in russia the chinese thought they had found a major player that was sort of on its side. it was also authoritarian. it is a nuclear power. they thought it had a big military. vladimir putin and xi jinping had some chemistry as children of this communist system. they have gotten themselves hedged to a somewhat dysfunctional -- hitched to a

dysfunctional country that may not even have the firepower they thought they had. . host: why can't china disentangle themselves from russia? caller: they rely on each other. the chinese rely on russians for natural resources. it is the factory of the world. it needs oil, gas, and it can get a lot of it from russia. it needs it for that reason. on a more ideological point of view, they both want to poke at the west in the eye. russia wants to overturn the table but china does not want to destroy the system but it would

not mind re-balancing it. both of them are disruptors in the international system. host: what is president xi's calculus here? what does he hope happens? guest: i think he hopes it will go away. this is not what they bargained for. people speculate did the chinese know about this ahead of time or not. i do not know what the chinese new but what they are thinking now is " even if russia ends up significantly weakened, it could still turn out well for china." russia could sell the nord stream 2 to china. a weakened russia will be

desperate to sell its natural resources and china may be able to lock in some of this on the cheap. it is not a good look for xi jinping's foreign policy. host: we want to get your thoughts on the china-russia alliance. we have divided the lines regionally. if you live in the eastern part of the country, (202) 748-8000. if you live in the mountains or pacific time zone, (202) 748-8001. we will also take your text messages. just include your city, state, and name at (202) 748-8003.

they were asked about the russia-china alliance. here are thoughts from lawmakers about how china is watching this situation. [video clip] >> director code said that russia and china are more aligned than at any other point before the 1950's. do you still believe that is the case? was it more so they case before this invasion? has this changed the calculus? we believe that beijing is looking at this with surprise. >> thank you, representative. director was exactly right. -- director coats was exactly right. they get closer.

there is a limit to which it will go but nevertheless that remains a concern. in terms of the current crisis, it is not yet clear to me exactly how it will affect the trajectory of their relationship. it is clear china has not come out and criticized russia for their actions and at the same time they did abstain in the context of the un security council resolution. it does seem as if they are potentially paying a price for not criticizing russia and that may have an impact on how this trajectory moves forward. others may have thoughts. >> i think director coats was right and if anything the

partnership between russia and china has strengthened since 2019. i think president xi and the chinese leaders are unsettled by what they have seen in ukraine. they did not anticipate the -- i think they are unsettled by the damage done by their association with president putin. they are facing lower growth rates than they have faced in decades. i think they are unsettled by the way vladimir putin has driven ukrainians and americans closer together. they have valued what they believed was their capacity to drive wages between us and the europeans. -- wages between us -- wedges

between us and the europeans. guest: it seems sensible to me. i think they are unsettled. they see a hostile international environment. they have said that on multiple occasions. more and more countries around the world are questioning foreign policy. xi jinping is not popular around the world. now they see yet another problem they have to deal with. they talk about being neutral and being a mediator by fundamentally china has never gotten involved in big international, issues unless it has to do with china. this is difficult for them to

play some major roland turn it around. i think it is -- major role and turn it around. they are kind of stuck in a conundrum watching this disaster unfold. host: questions that you have about china -- ian johnson is here to answer them. he is the senior china studies fellow. give us your experience. guest: i went to china in 1984 when i was an undergraduate. i lived in beijing. that was the first time russian students were allowed to go to china and study. some of my classmates were soviets.

i went to taiwan, studied chinese, went back to china in 1994, worked as a journalist off and on then went back to china around the time of the summer olympics in 2008, that i stayed there until 2020. i have spent a lot of my adult life in china. i like the country a lot. it is a great country, but there are things about the government one may not find so great. host: what is your view on what china may do with taiwan watching the situation in ukraine? guest: china has been thinking about taiwan for a long time. china has had as its goal since

1949 to reunify with taiwan. taiwan for all intents and purposes is a separate country but they want to reunify. this is perhaps one reason why they feel sympathy for putin. putin represents the soviet union. the soviet union lost ukraine. they feel like they lost taiwan. they want to get it back also. you have to look at the international response. they will realize it is easier to put sanctions on russia then it would be to put sanctions on china. russia has a small, inconsequential economy.

china has a deeply integrated economy. if china were to invade taiwan, it will be hard to put together sanctions. it is amazing how western europe, the united states and japan came together. a lot of countries have had trade disputes but on this issue we have been able to come together and implement these sanctions regime. that would be impressive to china to see that. host: cornelius in louisiana. you are up. good morning. caller: good morning. i trained as a military police officer in alabama. it seems like the russians with the communist chinese have tried with this biological virus and

stuff. you were talking about probably taking taiwan. the ukrainians are fighting so hard and everything. i think the taiwanese will fight twice as hard. i do not think china would risk it. i am really enjoying the show. god bless c-span. go ukraine! guest: he has a great point. as hard as the ukrainians are fighting, the taiwanese will fight just as hard. taiwan is across a long stretch of water. it would be hard to launch that kind of amphibious assault. taiwan has a small population relative to china, but it would be very complicated. you would have to assume that the united states would

intervene, unless taiwan completely went off the rails, declared independence and provokes the chinese, the thinking is that the u.s. would get involved if there was an unprovoked attack on taiwan. i have hope that that information is what is flowing into xi jinping's office. we don't know what kind of information flow he has on a lot of areas. when you live in china, it is a very well-run country. it is not the number two economy in the world for nothing. it has a vibrant economy, and good civil service, but on foreign policy you see a series of missteps over the past five years, and you begin to wonder what kind of information

feedback they are getting. a lot of wars begin because of mistakes. we do not know if xi jinping thinks taiwan is getting more weapons. this is the great unknown. host: you wrote in an op-ed recently that china's reticence is not neal. for decades the west pushed china to be a stakeholder -- not new. for decades the west pushed china to be a stakeholder. the reality is that china is so obsessed with a narrow set of issues that it is unable to be more than a character actor on the world stage, appearing in a few minor roles, but otherwise out of its depth." what do you mean?

guest: there are a lot of things china is interested in. climate change should be of interest to china because so many of its people live on the coast china rarely takes the lead on any of these things. the communist party has wrapped up its legitimacy in a series of narrow nationalistic issues. one is taiwan. even observer status at teh wh -- the who, china comes down like a sack of bricks. if you want relations at all with taiwan, you have to jump through a bunch of hoops or china well cut you off economically. they will stomp all kinds of

criticism. they get very involved in u.n. bodies about human rights but on other issues china does not get involved. the communist party does not have a lot of ideals. communism is about international revolution and the fraternity of people but when it comes right down to it, china's foreign policy is self-centered, but much more than other countries. it does not give a darn about these other issues. that is what we see in the ukraine. it is not playing much of a role even though it could. i think they are happy to sit in the background, bide their time, see who is going to win and strike a deal with the winter. -- with the winner.

host: next caller is from new york. caller: the thing that always has bothered me is the fact that over the past four decades, american corporations have more or less sold out. they have gone to china and they want short-term gains, transferring technology. the thing that bothers me the most is they do not seem to understand that the chinese will reverse engineer whatever they manufacturing china. this is a group of people who are raised in the image of mao zedong. they do not have any respect for democracy. they are an authoritarian, totalitarian government, and

quite frankly these companies in the united states knew this, and basically have sold this country out. host: let's get ian johnson's reaction to that. guest: a lot of companies went into china naively thinking they could sell a lot of stuff. this has been an issue going back to the 1940's and 50's. there was a book called " 19 million customers," which was the population of china at the time. technology transfers ended up putting some companies out of business or china was able to reverse engineer staff. companies are in the business of making profit. you cannot expect companies to

represent our national interests. it is up to the government to determine what is essential technology, what cannot be transferred? the fact that so many things were outsourced over the past few years -- we cannot even by face masks because they were all made in china. clearly starting with covid that was a wake-up call about how much stuff we outsource. i believe that is changing. host: gene parkridge, illinois. caller: my comment is it is a lack of human rights, respect for both sides involving both china and russia. we know prisoners of war from

the korean war and vietnam war were transported through china via heavy rail and shipped into russia to work in the mines. we have documentation of it not russia as well as china will not come forward and tell lasts where the remains are. i chair an organization called home with honor and we will find where the remains are and bring these men home from both wars but i would like to see china and russia come together on human rights issues. last but not least, a u.s. astronaut was told they will lead them up in space. this is another low blow by the russian government. sad to say what is going on over there -- see what is going on

over there and i'm afraid russia well -- will overstep into other countries. guest: we are in a new era. you mentioned the astronauts and the space program. that is a big? going forward. will we be able to continue cooperating with russia and countries like that? russia has gotten itself into a real jam. in terms of moving into other countries, it has its hands full with ukraine. if it wants to occupy this country the size of texas, it will be tough. we will be in conflict with russia for the foreseeable future i am afraid. host: david, auburn, new york.

caller: the enemy of my enemy is my friend until he is your enemy again. secondly, this bad marriage between russia and china, how long is that going to last? they are both on the same piece of real estate, they share a common border, they do not trust each other and cannot be trusted. unpredictable. host: mr. johnson? guest: there are a lot of? 's in the russia-china partnership -- there are a lot of question marks in the russia-china partnership.

the soviet union was the big brother. it helped industrialized china. now it is completely the other way around. china has an economy that is many times weaker than russia does. it dominates in many fields. there is some military hardware that a can still benefit from buying from russia. his psychologically that has to hurt the russians that they are going cap in hand to russia saying " please buy the gas that we were selling to the germans." the border issue is pretty much solved by longer-term these are countries that are prickly and they are not going to be the best of friends are tight allies in the future. host: how is president xi

perceived at home? what is his strength over the country and the people there? guest: spending a lot of time in china, i have felt among working-class people xi jinping is pretty popular. he cuts a good figure on the international stage. he cut down on corruption, he has pursued poverty alleviation. last year they formally announced the end of absolute poverty. he is pushing forward an agenda that overall for a lot of people still works. the problem is that the economy is slowing. to some degree that is normal.

it is an increasingly difficult situation. young generation china wants more than that. they're looking at the united states. they are looking at western europe. people in china have passports and they can travel. they see how other countries are run and that is the benchmark. whether xi jinping can deliver that high levels of, development that you see only in a few dozen countries around the world, that will determine the future of xi jinping. host: our next caller is from london. caller: thank you for taking my call and thank you to your guest. in 1941 president roosevelt help

to the russians because of the vast national resources of russia. if germany had access to that, they would be undefeatable. we are gifting the chinese the vast natural resources of russia. what can the biden administration do to deny the chinese access to the vast natural resources of china? otherwise, they will also become undefeatable. guest: that is an interesting point. china will be a willing buyer of russia's natural resources. these things do take time. you cannot build a pipeline overnight but in the future, you can see china stepping into that void that is left by the

sanctions and the cutting off of russian gas and oil. i do not know what we can do about that. we are not going to the pipeline bill through siberia into china, the people have speculated, " couldn't we try to pry china away from russia? you want to be in the big league of nations. you don't want to be slumming with this incompetent warlord who is trying to re-create the soviet union!" the one thing that unites republicans and democrats in this country is fear of and enmity toward china. china is the big bogeyman on the world stage. every time biden talks about the need for new infrastructure it

is framed as " china will eat our lunch, if we do not get our act together." it makes it hard for us to go to china and to say " why don't we find areas of cooperation?" even say the word " cooperation," and you are seen as a panda hugger. host: ian johnson is here to talk about china and its ties to russia, taking your questions on russia this morning. if you live in the eastern central part of the country, (202) 748-8000. london pacific, -- mountain-pacific, (202) 748-8001. we will take your questions on

twitter with the handle @c- spanwj. what are the issues? guest: the main issue china is interested in is taiwan and topics like that. it does not have a vision. it is not driven by idealism. trade is a primary concern and of interest to china, opening up trade routes but you do not want to launch this -- they launch this big project called the belton road. a lot of that has not worked well. it has been seen as a way for china to expand its business

ties and nothing else. you do not get a lot of development aid. they announced they will give $900,000 to the ukraine. there are millions of people on the road right now trying to flee! you are the second biggest economy in the world and you give $900,000 -- it is almost a joke! china does not have the ability to get out of its own shadow and be bigger than its own narrow interests. host: what about its investments in other countries and those countries' natural resources? what is the strategy and how is that going? guest: china is resource poor.

through this belton road initiative, it has tried to lock in business deals and other parts of the world , in africa for example. they have tried to build up an acquisition of resources. it is pretty narrowly focused of the on national security issues. it is vulnerable to shipping delays or to war, shipping lanes being blocked by foreign navi es. it has a huge land border with russia and it can import from russia without having to worry too much. host: dennis is in jacksonville,

florida. caller: i want to ask about the relationship between hong kong and china. thank you. guest: hong kong used to be a british colony. it was given back to china as part of a long-standing agreement, and china promised 50 years of hong kong being able to run its own show. hong kong would be run separately. it has its own stock market, its own currency, its own civil leaders. hong kong would be allowed to have more and more of a democratic system. it had a small parliament but it was not completely democratic. the vague promise was that this would expand.

restrictions were put on. there were more and more protests. china has ended the old agreement and they are coming in and running the city state of about 6 million. they are running it directly out of beijing. they are imposing china's roles on a whole bunch of things such as covid restrictions. they abrogated the promise of 50 years of independence. host: here is a tweet from a viewer who says " china is communist in name only. it is closer to mussolini's italy, more fascist really." guest: what does communism mean? it has abandoned most ideas of communism. the state still owns a light of

the large companies. the state controls 50% of gdp but it has a lot of big corporations that call the shots. it is run on a market-based system. there is cutthroat competition between chinese companies. i do not think it is a -- i don't think a direct comparison to miscellanies ellie -- i l don't think a direct comparison to mussolini's italy is helpful. in the future its economy will not be as dynamic as it was in the past. it has knee capped most of its

best companies because it thought its entrepreneurs were not towing the line. host: gracelynn in palmdale, california. caller: i was concerned about a couple of things. you did touch on it about taiwan and china, and i was concerned about that because i was concerned they would do the same type of human rights abuses and crackdown like they did in hong kong. i'm also concerned about how they treating the minority muslim community, the uighurs. caller: in terms of taiwan -- guest: in terms of taiwan, they would have to invade taiwan in

order to impose their will on taiwanese people. that would be tricky, but maybe not impossible. the military is modernizing quickly. they are building aircraft carriers. it will be hard for outside countries, including the u.s. to prevent an invasion 20 or 30 years down the road. you can tell a lot about a country's foreign policy by their domestic policy and china has a hard-line policy at home towards any type of expression of alternative viewpoints. it has these territories that are primarily not filled with ethnically chinese people. you have to bet and action giang

-- tibet and -- they have been trying to assimilate these people and make them chinese people. if they are considered to be to muslim, this is viewed suspiciously. have placed hundreds of thousands of muslims into reeducation camps to break them of their culture and independent thinking. these are supposed to be autonomous regions run by local people but just as we saw with hong kong, that is no longer tolerated. everybody must be under beijing's control. host: a.n. johnson, thank you for the cover -- ian johnson,

thank you for the conversation today. how are you responding to rising gas prices? there are the phone lines on your screen. start dialing in. coming up, we will talk to a science historian and author of the book " the rise of nuclear fear." ♪ >> i am pleased to nominate judge jackson. she will bring deep experience and intellect and a rigorous traditional record to the court. >> i am truly humbled by the extraordinary honor of this nomination and i am grateful for the care you have taken in discharging your constitutional

duty and service of our democracy. >> president biden nominates judge jackson to the u.s. court of appeals for the d.c. columbia circuit to replace judge breyer on the -- justice breyer on the u.s. supreme court. follow the historic process. watch the hearings starting monday, march 21. ♪ >> there are a lot of places to get political information, that only at c-span do you get it straight from the source. -- but only on c-span do you get it straight from the source. no matter where you come from,

c-span is your news outlet. america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back and returning to our conversation we had with all of you earlier about rising gas prices in this country, we have seen an increase every day since russia invaded ukraine. guess i -- gas prices were going up before. are you changing your behavior at all? eastern-central part of the country, (202) 748-8000. mountain-pacific, (202) 748-8001 .

join us on facebook or twitter. here is president biden warning americans about the high prices to come. [video clip] >> the decision today is not without costs. since putin began his military build about the ukrainian borders, since then the price of gas at the pump in america went up $.75. i will do everything i can to minimize putin's price hike here at home. we are releasing loyal from our joint oil reserves. -- releasing oil from our joint oil reserves. let me say this -- to the oil

and gas company is, to the finance firms who backed them, we understand putin's war is causing prices to rise but that is no reason to exercise excessive price increases to exploit the situation or american consumers. russia's aggression is costing us all and it is no time for profiteering more price gouging. i want to be clear about what we will not tolerate and i want to acknowledge those firms pulling out of russia and joining other businesses who are leading by example. this is a time when we need to do our part. host: what are you doing in response to those higher prices? this is your turn to tell

washington. debbie in south dakota. caller: i followed your first thing but did not get my call in. i hope you folks can show more video as far as some of the previous collars had ideas about getting rid of the gas taxes. usually however those pay for highways and roads. they need to evaluate that and you also did show earlier about the amount exported of our oil and gas. one of the things to do and we have done in past decades is to not export as much until our own domestic fuel prices are lowered because it is america and it is our own resources. host: do you have more thoughts?

-- do you have more thoughts? caller: in south dakota we make one crop all year. we have got enough tanks of stored oil we can release and open up. one last thought is with the keystone xl project, it was going through pretty good but one thing they did not consider is that the missouri river in north dakota and south dakota is a major safe water supply so they need to reroute where it crosses in our state because they should not have leaks in our major water supply. host: it is 10% belt is what we have read in the newspapers.

do you see some of that?pipeline in your area is some of -- do you see some of that pipeline in your area? caller: please show where the original proposed was supposed to be and then show us a map of where the new proposed is supposed to be. host: good morning, joseph. you heard debbie's proposal there. what do you think? caller: we purchased to solar panels for our home here in florida. i purchased a honda clarity vehicle. i do not understand why more

people are not buying plug-in vehicles and get refunds from the government. this vehicle cost me $25,000 and over time the amount you save on gas will knock down that amount substantially. i think this is the way out for our country. we would not need to depend on russia for gas. i think it is the way to go. my family is also plant-based. with all those things we are contributing to helping out the environment. host: how are the rising gas prices impacting you? npr's headline recently -- usa

today, " president biden says americans will feel the pain of rising gas prices." market watch with a quote from a consumer -- " it feels like we are being robbed." are you adapting, and if so, how? scott in planters well, alabama. good morning, -- planters will -- scott in alabama. go ahead. caller: i'm getting close to retirement. i have had heart attacks and i cannot even buy my medicine now because gas prices have gotten so high. i am having to either give up

going to work or getting my medicine host:. host:-- work or getting my medicine. host: what do you do, scott? caller: i am a mechanic. lots of heavy lifting. i cannot go back and forth to work or get my medicine. host: have you worked out the numbers? caller: yeah --stay home! host: jerry in broadway, virginia. caller: gas prices are not really impacting me. i am retired. i live half a mile from a shopping center. joe biden started the war. he declared war on energy as

soon as he took office. grasp height -- gas prices started rising as soon as he took office. joe biden is a pathological liar. host: the folks who analyze gas production and prices say it was on its way up before the invasion of ukraine. the reason it fell in the last eight months of president trump's administration is because of the pandemic because there was no supply -- or excuse me, demand went way down so supply responded. it will take them a wild to get up and running again. jerry, do you not believe that? what is your response?

jerry? caller: gasoline prices began rising as soon as joe biden got in office. he declared war on the fossil fuel industries right off. host: so you do not think it has anything to do with the pandemic? caller: no. host: next caller. caller: i remember in 2008 and 2009 when gas prices were high all the gas company is made record profits. can we see on your show the prophets since -- profits since gas prices have risen?

the big oil companies are going to make record profit like when they did back in 2008 and 2009. host: how should the government respond, if at all? caller: they should say " if you are going to make record profits, that is price gouging." i do not know if it is the ukraine, if it is biden for sure, but i know in 2008 and 2010 all the oil companies made record profits. host: jefferson station, good

morning to you. caller: i think gas prices are extremely high. we, have so much oil, so much on hand, it is foolish to go to these other countries and give them our money. host: -- other countries and give them our money. host: what do you mean by that? caller: i do not understand why we are going to iran for oil and venezuela for oil. host: instead of exporting our oil products, keep them here? caller: it is common sense.

host: listen to kevin mccarthy arguing or outlining a proposal for addressing the high gas prices on capitol hill this week. [video clip] >> not only did house republicans warned that this would happen, but we offered obvious solutions -- build a pipeline. by contrast, democrats' plan is to blame russia and beg opec for a bailout. you have watched time and again where the democratic leadership goes after american companies to produce less energy but ask countries with the dictators to produce more. the president said the buck stops with me, then he said

russia is responsible. the state department wants to buy oil from iran and venezuela, trading one dictator for another. host: xes reports -- axios reports " why is biden asking dictators to ease gas prices? the cartel rebuffed biden on his request to decrease prices back in november. biden is planning a visit to saudi arabia to convince the kingdom to pump more oil. venezuela's oil could replace

russia's imports. caller: yes, i want to talk about the high gas prices. i think the leaders and senators and congressmen and representatives need to cut through the red tape and we have plenty of gas and i know they're making plenty of. matt: on the stocks, the stock market and stuff. why keep making american people suffer. the senators and congressmen and representatives, they're not hurting at the pump. they can pay $10, $20 a gallon, you know. host: tell them how you're suffering. caller: it's hard. some places i can't go. i can go there but it will take me some time. i've got to really try how to being i'm going to squeeze as

much as i can out of the gas. i get paid every two weeks and got to do a lot of budgeting, you know. i wish i was like those senators and ain't got to worry about it, that ain't the case. if they want to cut through the red tape, stop pumping the gas and help the american people because they hurt. host: greg in troy, michigan, you're next. caller: small business owner from troy, michigan, landscaping, snowplowing and this is -- this could close my business down. how do i continue to pass on higher prices to customers because it's going to cost me $120 to $150 an hour or a week in extra fuel costs? it's insane. and it didn't have to be. and on that topic, we need to start discussing the truth about electric cars. in cold weather, electric cars

get about half the mileage. if i'm snowplowing in the middle of michigan in the winter and get an electric vehicle to do snowplowing, what am i going to do, snowplow for an hour, go home and charge it? makes no sense. host: greg in michigan, you heard the president say he's going to do what he can to help with the surging gas prices. the headline on business insider is the president announces 60 million oil the release from strategic reserves, 30 million coming from the u.s. and the other 30 from other countries. business insider reports this about how that works. the u.s. release will come from the strategic petroleum reserve, a network of underground oil storage units meant to stabilize oil supply in times of need. the reserve held more than 582 million barrels of crude oil in the week that ended february 18.

the president is releasing 30 million of those barrels. the release can happen in as little as 13 days tolling -- following the presidential oil depending on the office of management. the ukraine situation, they are the second largest oil producer and the global oil supply is coming under more pressure and say this, to be sure, the u.s. release of 30 million barrels would represent a relatively small share of oil production and demand. according to the e.i.a., the u.s. consumed an average of about 18 million barrels per day in 2020, meaning the newly announced release would cover less than two days of domestic demand. this latest move follows the release of 50 million barrels from the reserve that biden announced in november. dixie in maple falls, washington. we want to hear from you, dixie,

go ahead. caller: first of all, peace for all. i sit on the canadian word border and we have lots of refineries here. there's not a lot of -- well, one of the refineries just closed down, you know. so there's not -- anyhow, our gas in linden, washington went to $4.97. i just got gas last night. we have canadian folk coming down to this area.

their liters are very, very high. we also have up in our beautiful area, great big ships that have come down to bellingham, washington. and they're tracking, i think that's the word for it, tracking in this area and you know, what do you do? who do you talk to? tracking, people going and rising the prices. washington is one of the -- we can hit it first. host: got it. bernie in louisville, kentucky, how is it impacting you, higher gas prices. caller: hi, greta, been a minute. everybody's situation is different and my situation is probably not so bad. yes, it's impacted waiting in

line at the bigger box scores that sell cheap gas, you have to wait a while. one thing good has come out of it. i started riding my bike. i stopped doing that because i thought i was going to have a heart attack one day on the way to work and only live about a mile or so to work so i started working and that's a good thing, i'm getting some more exercise. but we're paying $375 to $4 a gas and right now this administration has bigger problems on their plate than trying to satisfy everybody's concerns about the gas prices. that's my opinion. welcome back, we've missed you. host: bernie, would you be in favor of a gas tax holiday? caller: what would that be? host: meaning the federal gas tax, maybe your state gas tax go away. as the caller pointed out earlier, that's what pays for

roads and bridges. caller: that's where we get our transportation budget. right now transportation is a big problem right now. roads are falling apart. hadn't really got anything going on with the build back with the infrastructure bill. i don't know. i think i might be -- i don't mind paying the gas tax because i know where it goes to. i don't think it's on a sliding scale. i needs to be a set price. it's hard because my situation is different than somebody else's. i know the guy from michigan, i feel for him and i understand his situation. but get out and walk, might be helpful. host: bernie, cbs news did a poll and asked american it is they'd like to see a gas tax holiday from their reporting, democratic governors from colorado, michigan, new mexico, pennsylvania and wisconsin sent

a joint letter to congressional leaders urging them to suspend the federal government's 18.4 cent a gallon gas tax through 2022 and then take a look at the average gas prices by state, light blue is around $3.80, the more royal blue around $4.30 and then as you get more purple it gets higher in $4.80 and higher. dennis in toledo iowa, good morning. caller: good morning. i want to report there's two tv stations in iowa reported they want about a gas aligned pipeline here in iowa and they showed these republican farmers protesting it because they -- the farmers had to lower the property value of their farmland, you know, saying

democrats against it but republicans in iowa against having a pipeline, too. that's my comment. host: fred in maryland. your turn. caller: i think there's something all the american people are forgetting out there, it ain't gasoline, what about fuel to heat your house? where i'm at we have properties and have to double the rent to heat these houses. you'll have more people on the streets. is the american people forgetting about fuel to heat your house? it's not only gasoline, it's fuel. right now fuel in this area is almost $5 a gallon. i think everybody ought to wake up a bit. host: how much is it costing to heat your home? caller: it's doubled in price. that's what it's done. and you're not thinking about fuel! we'll have to raise the rental on all of our apartments because

we're furnishing the heat and people can't afford it. host: fred in maryland there. we'll go to kentucky. burt, waynesburg, kentucky. caller: i have a couple comments. myself, i'm retired. my wife and i have i.r.a.'s and social security. i don't do a lot of traveling. what's going on now doesn't hart me -- hurt me very much. but i'm thinking of the people in more financial straits and more, how you put it, lower class people. , they don't have the money. if it comes between a job and traveling to a job or buying

food for themselves, for their children, i don't know if joe realizes that his policies are contributing to child -- how you want to put it, they don't have the food to eat. another comment, if i was an oil company and i had the -- joe is saying that there are so many thousands of oil wells they could tap, you know. he's not holding them back. he is holding them back, his policies are holding them back. if i owned an oil company and i had the option of opening up some more oil wells now and

investing huge amounts of money and the president of our country is saying our goal is to shut you down and go electric, of course i'm not going to invest money in that. joe's policies are 90% of the problem. covid, ukraine are part of the problem. by far and away our biggest problems are our president and democrat policies. thank you. host: in wisconsin, rock springs, wisconsin, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span, this is my first call. yes, i farm all my life and there will be increased cost in my production, of course, but we could go to e-15 which would help some and you can go to electric vehicles, help some. the thing is we were producing

enough crude oil before covid. we had $2 something gas so why can't we produce some now? is it the incompetence of the oil company, the management maybe? we need to turn on and do what we were doing a couple years ago. it's there and there are thousands of people now working from home that don't drive to work every day so the consumption is down. i just get sick and tired of people blaming each other whether you're republican or democrat when we were doing it before so why not do it now? thank you. host: scott in illinois. hi, scott. caller: good morning, how is everybody? host: doing fine. how are higher gas prices in illinois? caller: they're killing us. the questions i've got -- i'm an old vietnam veteran and a lot of

us lived through the jimmy carter years and never thought we'd see this again but this is really tragic. my opinion is the government going to knock off the gas taxes, are all the states going to give us a break on the stickers for our cars? are the insurances going to reduce the price because we're driving less? these are all questions i've got. go ahead. host: scott in illinois. we'll leave it there. we're going to take a break. when we come back, change the conversation and talk with spencer ward who joins us to discuss the history of nuclear anxiety in america, a science historian and author of the book "the rise of nuclear fear." we'll be right back. ♪ announcer: this week on the c-span networks, both chambers of congress are in session. the house votes to revoke russia's permanent trade relations in response of its

ongoing invasion of ukraine and also take up the $16.6 billion emergency coronavirus pandemic relief bill. the senate votes on the confirmation of the white house budget director on monday on c-span, poland's foreign minister who chairs security and operation in europe talks about the ongoing humanitarian crisis stemming from russia's invasion of ukraine and other issues. tuesday at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span, state department officials testify before the national -- senate foreign relations committee to the u.s. response of atheory terrace him around the globe. on wednesday at 10:00 a.m. on c-span 3, officials discuss in front of the armed services committee. and on c-span. org and c-span now free video app, the defense department intelligence leaders testify before the armed services committee. watch this week live on the c-span networks or on c-span

now. our free mobile video app. also head over to c pan. org for scheduling information or stream video live or on demand any time. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. announcer: there are a lot of places to get information but only from c-span you get it straight from the source no matter where you're from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if it happens here or here or anywhere that matters, america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. washington journal continues. host: joined by spencer ward,

author of "the rise of nuclear fear." and former director of the history of physics and the american institute of physics. thanks very much for joining us. let's begin with a poll that was just taken that found that 60% of americans think russian president putin is willing to use nuclear weapons against nato countries. are you surprised by that? guest: no, i think that's fairly realistic, he's shown himself to be very aggressive and nuclear weapons doesn't necessarily meanies going to bomb us so i think a lot of the expert commentary i read from foreign policy experts is the chance if he feels himself cornered and desperate he might send off a bomb somewhere just to show he means business. host: give us the history of the rise of nuclear fear. guest: it's a long history. in fact, i was surprised when i found out how far back it goes. most people think it began in

1945 with the bombing of hero hiroshima but when it was announced a bomb had been dropped on hiroshima everybody knew what it meant because for half a century people had been talking about atomic bombs and all kinds of wonderful and amazing and horrible science fiction things had been popping up around the 191920's and 1930's and when the hiroshima bomb went off, it was everything that was thought to be science fiction for teenage boys is now suddenly a reality. host: what was this anxiety like, the fear like during different moments in american history? guest: as i say, if you go back to the 19 30's, it was kind of a science fiction horror thing. there were movies, my favorite one is instead of playing

frankenstein's monster, borolov plays a mad scientist that turns into a monster and goes around glowing in the dark and killing people with the touch of his radioactive hand. so there's a whole complex of ideas, atomic war, the first atomic war by h.g. wells in 1913 and pair weiss the atomic bomb was in 1901 novel by a famous novelist and people had all these ideas of cities being blown up and even the end of the world, maybe some mad scientist would destroy the whole planet. there's a lot of fear involved here and very deep psychological things, mad scientists, monsters, all kinds of childhood fears, the apocalypse is almost biblical and all this tied up. but in a fictional way, as if science fiction, the same thing just latched on and said this is real, you know, there could be

horrible monsters, there could be radioactive people, there could be cities -- a city was bombed maybe and could be the end of the world. all this was activated and the whole, what shall i say, complex set of symbols and anxieties and ideas just fell down on top of people as it was suddenly a reality. matt: was it reality, realistic fears and anxiety? guest: the first stage was after the war when the united states had atomic bombs and the russian has one and that's the era i remember very well and i was born in 1942 and people know about this, under your desk if there's a flash outside or you get a half-hour warning the russian bombers are on the way, you go out in the corridor. it was a very anxious kind of a time.

you heard an airplane going overhead and you wonder, is it a bomber that's going to drop a bomb on me? people kind of make fun of duck and cover but it was actually realistic at the time because an atomic bomb was basically a world war ii level bombing and people hiding in the corners was something that people in europe and japan knew very well. actually the worst bombing of the war was the fire bombing of tokyo march 17, 1945 which killed more casualties than hiroshima and nagasaki together which made sense and then the hydrogen bomb in 1960's. suddenly the hydrogen bombs are a thousands times more powerful than an atomic bomb and they can put them on the top of icbm's, intercontinental ballistic missiles so there's no way to stop them and hiding under your desk will do no good if you're inside the fireball. some people started getting

worried about radiation from fallout and what to do about the fallout shelters and i read an article people in europe are studying fallout shelters and frankly doesn't work very well. when i was doing research, i read a memo moynihan sent to kennedy, fallout shelters are a way to save suburban republicans while democrats in the cities die and it's not a very good solution. so at the time of the cuban missile crisis, people realized the only way to save yourself in a nuclear war was not to have one. host: and where are we today in our fears and anxiety, are they realistic? guest: yeah, after the cuban missile crisis people chose to forget about it and the united states and soviet union, khrushchev and them made packs, so basically went in denial and

started having open air bomb tests and looked like everything would be ok. if you look between 1963 and 1965, all the novels and films and people stopped talking about it and being in denial because the missiles were still there. right now the united states and russia have about 6,000 warheads and each side has about 1, 500 bombs that can be ready in an hour and ukrainian situation reminded people of things they didn't want to being about. host: let's play for viewers averil hanes on capitol hill this week talking about putin's potential use of a tactical nuclear weapon and here's what she had to say. >> folks that work with nuclear

weapons today know tactical nuclear weapons have yields larger than what we saw at the end of world war ii. how concerned should we be about russia's potential use of a nuclear weapon in ukraine, what would that look like and what can we do to prevent that from happening, especially given how putin seems to be in a posture he needs some sort of a reset? and has proven himself to be very unpredictable? avril: joe, i'll just say i think probably we can have a further conversation about this in the closed session but, you know, as a general matter as i indicated, we're obviously very concerned, want to make sure we're monitoring everything that may be going on with respect to russia's strategic nuclear

forces but as i indicated, we've not yet seen posture changes that are beyond what we've seen previously during moments of tension such as in relation to crimea or in 2016 vis-a-vis syria and so on, they made certain posture changes and they're consistent with what we're seeing now and nothing unprecedented in a sense. host: spencer, what did you hear there from the director of the d.n.i.? guest: these things were thought out very carefully by intelligent people in the 19 50's and 1960's, and by 1960 everybody went to the hydrogen bomb and everybody realized no sane person will launch an all out war so let's first put aside the question whether the leaders are sane and assume they are, then the question becomes about an accidental war.

there's two ways you can have an accidental war and one is by pure accident, for example, just the other day, a missile from india accidentally was fired and wound up in pakistan, fortunately the pakistanis were very mature and adult about it and said we assume it's a mistake and they're not actually bombing us. accidents like this have happened all along and is a very scary thing and everyone knows about the problems of accident with bad consequences. the other accident is a leader who is sane but trying to send a message and what we're worrying about here. and they say promise who thought about this thought about it very carefullily, no one will start a nuclear war but what if russia starts to invade western europe and this is at a time the russian army was much stronger than nato, what we can do is set off a tactical bomb which as you heard is only big enough to destroy one city instead after whole country, set off a

tactical bomb and tell them ok, you've got to stop. that's what they're afraid of putin doing. if putin finds himself, now seems to be quite likely in a terrible fix, where the russians are likely to remove him or will be horribly embarrassed and so forth and can't stand it, maybe he'll set off a nuclear bomb somewhere as a warning and then,000 do we respond and then the problem then becomes that this accidentally develops into something nobody really wanted which is an exchange. this has very deep psychological roots and goes back to the whole idea of the mad scientist who sets off either deliberately or accidentally sets off an explosion and brings us right into our own brains about the kinds of accidents and the deep aggressive instincts and risk taking that we all have and actually evokes very deep kind of killings we've had since childhood about the kind of mistakes we might make and

invokes very deep anxiety which we don't realize has a personal feeling for us, not just about things about putin but ourselves and the people around us. host: spencer, does it depend on how old you are? guest: that's a good question and certainly depends in terms of the experience. i had the experience of thinking many years about nuclear war and obviously that gives me a different attitude towards it. people who went through the 1960's developed some kind of permanent anxiety, like people going through covid, there's a permanent stress. if you're afraid all the time, well, it can build anxiety and that actually changes your brain and makes you more alert to dangers and threats and so forth if you always think there's some kind of threat outside, your brain becomes more alert to anything in your daily life and can affect your thinking, so this is something that happened to my generation and also happened to some people around 1980 when there was a reviled

nuclear war thinking and also happened after 2011 with the threat of terrorist nuclear bombs and depending on your generation you may offensive board trade of nuclear war or the 9/11 generation you'd be more afraid of the terrorists, where of course putin begins to look like a terrorist and sort of resembles the mad scientist, terrorist, people like saddam hussein and kim, you know, practically at war with him because we feel that they're personally unstable and all fits into that complex of feelings about the unreliable authority which goes back to childhood things because children are worried about authority and what authorities might do to them and authorities very powerful and the parental figure andy voces all that kind of feelings and people being very aware of it. the young people of course are more susceptible to this and

their brains are still in formation. host: which is why we divided the lines by age this morning. if you're under 30 years old, your line is 202-748-8000, if you're between the ages of 30-60, dial in at 202-748-8001 and if you're older than 60 years old, 202-748-8002. dennis in hudsonville, michigan, over age 60. welcome to the conversation. you're up first. caller: well, thank you, 68, a retired firefighter, so i've lived through most of the nuclear age. my concern is tactical nukes, what's to say he hasn't already placed them in some capital city around the world? he's had years and years to do this and plan this. if he has done this, why are our borders wide open? either biological or nuclear, somebody could be bringing

something in here. and then if he does use -- attacks somewhere, do we accept refugees? also, ukrainian refugees should be given that status so they can be brought to the u.s. and relieve some of our nato allies. thank you. host: spencer? go ahead. guest: i don't have anything special to say about refugees but what they call prepositioned nuclear weapon is an old idea and you talk carefully about people in the beginning of it, oppenheimer, the father of the atomic bomb was asked by the congressional committee, is there an instrument to make sure bombs are not carried into the united states, and he said screwdriver, open every crate that comes in. we do have better methods for detecting radiation but it's entirely possible there are bombs prepositioned but it doesn't matter because there are

1, 500 weapons sitting on missiles that can be launched at us anyway. the only problem in a prepositioned weapon you don't know who may have set it off. that's definitely a problem, yes. host: what do you mean the 1, 500? guest: 1, 500 nuclear warheads that are now mounted on missiles and submarines and things like this that the president of the united states or the president of the soviet union can launch on his command. that's what they call the red button and it's not actually a red button but like that, nobody can stop them. the problem is it somebody launches a missile at you, they say mr. president, there's a missile being launched, you have half an hour to respond or maybe your own missiles will get blown up. that means the system has to be set up to the president of the united states and the president of the soviet union can say launch and he will be obeyed and nobody will stop him and that's very scary for both countries. host: what does it mean if that were to happen?

guest: if they actually launched all of them, say one side launches, it means 1, 500 nuclear warheads go off and maybe they'll launch the rest of them, so 6,000, that basically means one of the countries burns aside from a large fraction of the population dying, it means the smoke will go up into the air and we don't know exactly what will happen but quite likely there will be called a nuclear winter in the northern hemisphere which will basically shut down agriculture. could civilization survive? i don't know. we've seen recently supply chains are more fragile than we thought. it might be it's just one nation launches all its missiles, and basically commit suicide and basically end civilization. this has been a worry for a long time, a nuclear winter has been well known since the 1980's. incidentally the response to this is what most countries do,

china has 300 warhead, france and england have about 200 and the other nuclear powers even less. why so few? well, the president of france at the time said i don't need to kill just tear his arm off. there's one thing to do would be to cut down these 6,000 warheads to 300 like the sensible countries do so if we do have a nuclear war, maybe we'll die but at least we won't destroy civilization. host: hudsonville, michigan, dennis. caller: i don't think that the threat of an all out nuclear war is what we should be afraid of. i think it's his threat to try and make the world obey him where he sets a nuke off or a small one or chemical or biological weapon off somewhere and holds the entire world at threat. guest: yeah, i'll go along with that. it's very complicated

psychological things going on here and frankly the people who tried to being this out in the 1950's and 1960's didn't have any real answer to that. the presumed answer was ok, we shot off a nuclear weapon. there was a science fiction one where an accidental russian bomb sets off -- goes over washington and everybody agrees was a mistake so the soviet premier says we'll give you lenin graduate, you bomb lenin graduand we'll call ourselves even, a joke, a fantasy, we would respond and hope that sobers them up. the problem here is of course the problem of the scary authority figure, the mad scientist, the father who is out of control if you want to talk about childish things, there's no way to keep this from being very scary for people because it is a definite threat. i think it's a very low

probability threat but low probability threats of horrible consequence is still something you have to be anxious about. host: if russia were to use a tactical missile as you were talking about, is there time to respond to that and if so, what is the response? guest: sure. you have a reduced response. as i say, the nuclear theorist response would be to shoot off one of your own. there's many other possible responses. i'm not a national security adviser but an expert on the history and psychology of the thing so i won't respond to that. host: in boston lake, new york. caller: good morning. hey, i was curious, do we, right now we're being kind of blackmailed by putin with nuclear weapons. as far as i remember, this is the first time that's ever happened in history where a

dictator basically said hey, you do anything and you're going to reap the vengeance. trump kind of did that with the guy in north korea, so my first question is, is that true? is this the first time there's been kind of a nuclear blackmail in a wartime period with ukraine being the war? my second question is do you know the strategic weapon used, assuming the horrible thing happens and there's a nuclear exchange or first strike, a nuclear weapons launched, is our strategy to take out nuclear weapons in just russia if they're the ones that launched it or would it include china and north korea? those are my questions, thank you. guest: in response to your first question, this is certainly the first time we've been in this kind of situation, people worry when there's a big crisis. the other, and i would say the only other precedent is the

cuban missile crisis which again i remember very well. people were terrified, the shelves in the supermarkets were empty, people moved to new zealand and the threat there was the united states might drop a bomb on kuba or the soviet union might launch a preemptive strike and the soviet submarine was cut off i communications and being threatened to go to the surface and almost went down with the submarine because one was asked to push the button and they refused. i would say the one precedent is the cuban missile crisis but obviously every historical situation is different and that's the situation here. remind me again the second question. host: talked about strategic weapons, in response.

guest: the united states has an operational plan and nobody knows what it is. actually probably a variety of ones. when they say oh, missiles have been launched and the guy is never far from the president with a briefcase and he'll say here is plan 1 which is to bomb russia and plan 2 which is to bomb china and here's plan 3 which is to bomb canada, i don't know. i'm sure they have many options. we don't know what's in those. we do know ones that were much earlier, once you launch it, if you do an all out response, we have too many bombs. you not only destroy the cities but they have whole hydrogen bomb target on an airfield or power plant. we have more bombs that we possibly can use. we do know that about the operational plans. you give the choices and one of the choices is basically to incinerate every place where there is population basically.

host: spencer waert, what's the fear and sang item over the chernobyl power plant and possible attack on that? guest: ok. this gets into even deeper things. the problem with the nuclear reactor is that it can have a -- basically a chemical explosion and you can't have an atomic explosion but a chemical explosion and spread radioactive material over a wide area. and 2 it reminds us of a fallout. if a hydrogen bomb goes off it can kill everybody 500 miles away. a nuclear reactor fallout is not as dangerous. and if you remember the fallout, they always have it in the back of their mind, i don't have a bomb shelter or even if i do, the fallout will probably kill me. so people have this great fear and goes back to the old fear of

radioactive monster, mutants and what the fallout does is it will give you cancer. so although people don't know it when they talk about being afraid of radioactive material from a reactor, they're afraid of getting cancer and the probability is quite real and the first chernobyl thing it did spread a lot of radioactive material around and evacuated the people and caused great problems. the better study we have the one in japan and they evacuated a large number of people and 2,000 people died, mostly old people yanked out of their homes. if they had left in the evacuees from fukushima, we saw them yanked from their communities and they're depressed and lost their jobs and get suicidal, people shun them because they

think they're somehow contaminated by radioactivity and it's a terrible thing for these people. if they'd left everybody in place in fukushima for 50 years there might have been a few hundred cases of thyroid cancer which are other samples of cancer. but the fear of radioactivity that causes the danger and makes us all anxious about it and forces you to evacuate and why we're worried about things like terrorists setting off a explosion that just spreads radioactive material around and actually much dangerous than the pollution from smoke from a coal plant, actually, that also will cause you cancer but everybody is so terrified of radioactivity and fallout because i have a wonderful quote from a child back in the 1960's when there was fallout around and he says you shouldn't eat the snow because there might an piece of the bomb in it. we think of radioactivity and radioactive materials as a piece of the bomb and we're anxious

and fearful of it. but there are a lot of other kinds of pollution that will give us cancer that we should probably be more afraid of. host: going to new york, lee, in new york. good morning. caller: good morning. are you there? host: yes, we're listening. guest: hi. caller: your guest mentioned the cuban missile crisis and there were several replays of president biden saying we have to give up our lease on guantanamo bay because it's getting too expensive and we'll remove -- bring the remaining prisoners to the united states. now, if we give up that lease, who knows who will pick it up and for a while we were saying we'll get oil from kuba and venezuela but then they dropped the cuba thing and don't know we have sanctions on cuba and there

could be a replacement and they're only 90 miles away from our coast. thank you so much. guest: the only comment i have on that is the united states made very clear we won't allow nuclear weapons to be posted anywhere near us. i don't have anything else to say about that. host: jacob in brooklyn. hi, jacob, how old are you? caller: i'm 24, thank you. my question is you continue saying once they launch the 1, 500 nuclear heads there's nothing we can do to stop it, aren't we supposed to have something in play that can shut them down and what do we know about how effective these systems are and how good the russian missiles are? thank you. guest: we don't know and one of the reasons there's so much anxiety and secrecy, the idea of

atopic secret has been around since 1945 and secrecy, naturally anxious, what are they keeping these secrets for? we don't know what the systems are but what we do know about systems in the past is they didn't work very well and they had accidents and there were cases where an individual commander would be thinking maybe a possible individual russian commander, if he thinks they're cut off from moscow could launch on his own. we don't know about american commanders but if you imagine they're cut off and think the president has died will they launch on their own? we basically don't know and if there's one thing to do about it, you can ask your congressman or candidate if they intend to do anything about it and intend to look into it and see whether our systems could be made more safe. host: john in tulsa, oklahoma. caller: i was curious if the icbm missiles, long rang

missiles leave the united states or leaves the earth's atmosphere and re-enter into the united states as opposed to a short range missile and number two, the second question is how many hydrogen bombs would create a nuclear winter? thank you. guest: the first question, you send the missile up and comes down, nothing can stop it. people have tried for many years to develop systems that could stop anti-ballistic missiles and believe they can't be stopped. in terms of the second question remind me? host: how many would it take to create a nuclear winter? guest: we don't know. we're sure 1, 500 would pretty well crash things. there was a study done if there

was a war good india and pakistan where we're only talking about a total of maybe 100 or so and was thought that could produce a nuclear autumn that would severely impact agriculture and make for a lot of starvation around the world and ruin the economy and probably not bring down civilization. we're not sure. we don't want to do the experience. host: g.w. in elmon, new york. caller: good morning. i'm here with my dad and he's about 80. what is the difference in actual yield between the uranium, plutonium and the hydrogen bombs and who has how many of which? guest: ok. basically it's 1,000 times difference. it's just an enormous difference. there's no comparison. a thousands times. and as i said, we believe the united states and russia each

have about 6,000 warheads and other countries if you add them all up barely come to a thousands and all the rest of the nuclear powers. we're the outhighers and kind of got into this contest of see who can have the most and at the peak there are 50,000 and people realize it's totally insane in the united states and the soviet union agreed to cut it down and stopped at 6,000 but clearly should keep cutting it until it gets down to a number which still serves as a deterrent but wouldn't destroy civilization. again, this is something you should talk to your congressman or address the representatives about. do they think that we have enough weapons or too many weapons and make their voting depend on their answer?

host: why is it iran and north korea don't have one? guest: north korea does. they don't have hydrogen bombs so far as we know which is much more difficult fortunately. iran doesn't because we struck a deal with them and they haven't exactly followed the deal but hope to get back into it and they'd rather be sort of part of the world economy than have nuclear bombs. they don't really need nuclear bombs because they're not particularly threatened by anybody and not like north korea which does feel afraid we're going to invade them some day. host: al in lewiston, michigan. we'll go to you next. hi, al. caller: hi. got a question for the guest. my question is we seem to be confused about this thread and the fact that president biden isn't making a threat back. is there any psychological advantage to president biden basically getting into a pissing

contest with putin over a nuclear attack? guest: well, you know, the president has advisers that have followed these debates if you do a what happens to b and i'm sure he has advisers that spent the last 20 years stud i go whatever putin did and said and knows how best to respond to him. host: over the decade of fear of nuclear war, how has the government told american peoples to cope with that fear and does it apply today? guest: the government was very worried about it because people began to distrust the government and people of my generation, parents can protect you from being killed and was probably a important origin of the distrust of authority and everybody that's become strong nowadays

and they respond father knows best and didn't work well, bad father. and then they said ok, we'll make atoms for peace and have radioactive tomatoes and atomic powered airplanes and use it for peaceful uses and that worked better until when people sort of set ok we'll stop worrying about atomic bombs and started worrying about reactors instead. in 1960 if you said no nukes and there was a mass movement of millions of people to stop the atomic bomb and the government responded to that with the peace talks and the world would be peaceful and people talked about no nuclear reactors and they made demonstrations against that. that was ok for the government and again in 1980, reagan's time, people began to be afraid because reagan seemed unreliable

and brezhnev the dictator of russia at the time and senile and on drugs and people didn't trust him and there was a mass movement of people going into the streets and the government was on our side and their side responded by saying ok, we'll have day thank you and day taut and we'll cut down and the first try was atoms for peace and people transferred their fears to radioactive fallout to reactors and the next one was dei taunt and calming things down and now we're in the third stage and the only really way they can calm things down is for both sides to make new agreements to calm down with the nuclear weapons and unfortunately as the situation goes you can say as well as i can what that is. host: a tweet, nuclear fears aren't how many weapons are out there but the people who have

the power to use them. does putin think like hitler, he can't have it all then no one can have any? guest: exactly. this is exactly how it is. remember in the early 1960's there was a big anti-nuclear bomb movement someone did a series of cartoons about people saying why we shouldn't worry about it and one of the cartoons has a person saying nobody would be crazy enough to start a nuclear war and on the wall behind them is a picture of hitler. this is where the real fear comes from, the fear after crazy person which we concentrate on putin but it actually evokes all the fierce we have by ourselves is which would we do if deeply threatened and would we lash out and what about the people we know? it makes you suspicious and distrustful. let me say a word about anxiety in general because it applyies to covid and the worry of

climate change and anything that keeps you anxious for a long time will awaken the fear centers in your brain which means you're ready to respond to a threat at any moment and you start seeing a threat anywhere and start thinking in short terms, so it's very important to realize when we have threats of nuclear war will affect your thinking and relationships and tend to see things threatening that aren't threatening and tend to react faster like the road rage we had during covid. it's important to call user down and stop and think and take time. am i really being threatened? it's very important. host: spencer waert, the fact the u.s.a. used nukes and killed so many in japan it makes it practically inevitable they'll be used next against the united states. guest: that's an interesting saying. again, another thing nuclear

theme is a guilt theme something deep in us and makes us worry about and something a lot of people have worried with. i wouldn't say it makes it inevitable because russia does not have a good record of saving lives and in fact throughout the 20th century more people were killed by their own governments than other governments and hitler killed more germans in the holocaust and so on. stalin killed more russians a&m ao killed more chinese than they killed anyone abroad. i would say the government of the united states is not the one we have to worry about the most. host: joe in indiana. joe in indiana, pennsylvania. good morning. caller: i don't know if the question was asked but hyper sonic missiles, how many does china and russia have?

host: did you hear that, hyper sonic? guest: there's a new kind of missile called a hyper sonic missile which goes very fast but at ground level or doesn't go up over the atmosphere and fall down and comes back along the ground, china and russia have developed them. ours, it seems from what we know and of course we don't know a lot about this, a little bit behind but it doesn't matter because the list of missiles we have now can hit us anyway so having a fancy new kind of missile doesn't make any difference for the overall situation. host: dwayne, westbrook, maine, good morning. caller: good morning, greta. the problem here a lot of people have forgotten the cold war. i was born in 1968 so i remember pretty clearly reagan when he was in office and he negotiated with gorbachev on nuclear weapons, people have forgotten we faced mutual mature

destruction called mad and if there ever was a nuclear exchange between the united states and russia it would destroy human civilization and wipe out billions of people and is a real problem because those nuclear weapons are still there. we need to stop moving towards confrontation with russia and move towards adiplomatic solution before something bad happens by accident. i'm more worried about accident than by intentional exchange of nuclear weapons. i think people need to look up the unit of concerned scientists and call them together to give lectures about mutually assured destruction about how we need diplomacy because we were at a period during the reagan administration where we were really facing possible nuclear annihilation as a species that would wipe us out completely. host: dwayne, i'll jump in. guest: you got it. let me respond to that. mentioned an organization. if you want to do something about it, you can talk to your

representative and also support senators in congress, representatives who are committed to doing something about calming down this mutually assured destruction thing and there's a very clever group called the council for a livable world. you can google council for livable world easily and they have thought out how you can give your money in the most effective way to specific representatives and senators who have committed themselves and their opponents have not committed themselves to turning down the arms race and if you want to give money, that's the place to go. host: what would be your advice to parents to talk to kids about the fear of the pandemic or fear over nuclear war? guest: the same thing applies, in the first place they'll take their keys from us and you have

to calm down and watch out for seeing a threat everywhere and you have to calm down from short term thinking and think things through a little more. exercise is very good for calming your thoughts. do something you like to do. do things to commissars the first thing to do. the other thing is very important to feel their parents can keep them safe and to show them that is show you're doing something about it. this is relatively easy with covid but climate change is another long term concern for children which is more difficult but there are things you can do and if the children become older adolescents and things they can do. for a nuclear thing it's much more difficult but you can still take action and as i mentioned, talk to your representative, you know, send letters, you can donate money to the council, through the council for a livable world and show your kids that you understand their concern and that you're taking

action and also, kids have very short range thinking, especially the younger kids, there's no problem now, this is all a problem for the future and you know, make sure they understand that this is not an immediate problem but something they can put out in the medical you husband future. host: spencer waert, author of "the rise of nuclear fear." thanks for talking to us. guest: my pleasure. host: that does it for today's washington journal, we'll be back tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. eastern time and thank for you watching and joining us in the conversation. [captioning copyright national

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