discussions allegations of war crimes committed by russian forces and vladimir putin. join the conversation with your phone calls, text ♪ host: direct u.s. military and humanitarian aid to ukraine during the by the administration now tops $2 billion, even as the eight increases, so too does russia's attack. overnight, thousands more fled a city as the russians reportedly bombed a school where some 400 people had been sheltering. good morning, this is "washington journal." it is sunday, march 20, 2022. we will start the program asking you this morning how you think the president and the

administration are handling the russia-ukraine conflict. if you support what they are doing, there is a line. if you oppose, there is a line. you can send us a text. we welcome that. tell us your name and where you are texting from. we are also on facebook. we will look for your posts, and you can send us your thoughts on twitter and instagram @cspanwj. as the war begins to enter its fourth week, we will hear from the president and other leaders on capitol hill as well. we look forward to hearing from you this morning. but skip first to the report of the attack and the situation. this is from the bbc. school sheltering 400 hit by russian strike, ukraine says. an art school where about 400 people were sheltering was attacked. officials say the building has been destroyed and people could be trapped in t -- under the

rubble. ukraine's president says russia's attacks on the southern port city will be remembered for centuries. volodymyr zelenskyy alleging russia committed war crimes in the city where heavy fighting has now reached the center. this comes as officials allege that thousands of residents had been forcibly taken to russian cities. the bbc has yet to verify that claim. that was a report from cnn. another piece this morning on the numbers leaving mariopal, the coastal city largely under russian control. over 4000 civilians flee mariupol as the russians advance. they write out evacuations from besieged cities continued saturday along with eight of 10 humanitarian corridors. ukraine's deputy prime minister set a total of 60 600 people were evacuated including over 4000 from mariupol who were

taken to the northwest. russian forces push deeper into the besieged and battered port city of mariupol where heavy fighting shutdown a major steel plant and local authorities have pleaded for more western help. the president this week will be heading to europe for conferences with nato allies. here's the headline from cnn on the planned visit this week by the president. biden to join nato leaders in brussels and attend european council summit on the war. they say the president will travel to brussels, belgium participating in the nato summit on march 24, coming up this thursday. they will also join a council meeting. cnn writes, the trip, which will be one of the most closely watched visits to europe by an american president in decades, comes weeks after russia launched an unprovoked attack on ukraine. biden "will discuss ongoing

deterrence and defense efforts during the nato summit and reaffirm the u.s. commitment to its nato allies." the president this week announcing additional aid to ukraine, both military and humanitarian aid. here are some of what he had to say. [video clip] >> i am once again using my presidential authority to actively -- activate additional security systems to continue to help ukraine fend off russia's assault. additional $8 million in assistance. that brings the total to $1 billion just this week. these are direct transfers of equipment from our department of defense to ukrainian military to help them as they fight against this invasion. i think the congress for appropriating these funds. this new package on its own is going to provide unprecedented assistance to ukraine and includes 800 antiaircraft

systems to make sure the ukrainian military can continue to stop planes and helicopters are attacking their people and offender ukrainian airspace. at the request of president zelenskyy, we have identified and are helping ukraine acquire additional longer-range antiaircraft systems and ammunitions for those systems. our new assistance package also includes 9000 anti-armor systems. these are portable high accuracy shoulder mounted missiles that ukrainian forces have been using with great effect to destroy invading tanks and armored vehicles and will include 7000 small arm machine guns, grenade launchers to equip ukrainians including the brave, women and men defending their cities as civilians and on the countryside as well. as well as the ammunition, artillery and mortar rounds to go with small arms, 20 million

rounds in total. this will include drones, which demonstrates our commitment to sending our most cutting edge systems to ukraine for its defense. we are not doing this alone. our allies and partners have stepped up to provide significant shipments of security systems and will continue to help facilitate these deliveries as well. host: asking you if you support or oppose how the president has been handling the russia-ukraine conflict. one line for those of you who support, one for those of you who oppose. the headline on that military aid from "the associated press," "a look at the military assistance the u.s. is giving. the numbers, $800 million in military aid, $293 million worth a few minutes. assistance making a total of

nearly $2 billion since the start of the administration. the president talked about what is in this latest package." 2000 javelin and 2000 like anti-armor weapons, 6000 anti-armor systems, 100 switchable drones, 100 grenade launchers, rifles, pistols, machine guns, 20 million rounds of small arms ammunition and 25,000 sets of body armor in the most recent package from the administration. let's hear first from john in bridgewater, new jersey. good morning. caller: good morning. a couple of months ago, we were worrying about climate change and the world is going to end. now, we are talking about nuclear bombs. it is hard to believe. i called on the oppose line only because that is my speed dial for the republican number. i think this is the most

difficult decision to make since the cuban missile crisis or harry truman in 45 with the atomic bomb. i don't know what to do. honestly. we watch this every night, we see the carnage. this is unbelievable that someone could do this. on the other hand, we are afraid to engage him because he is going to drop a nuclear bomb somewhere. it is a real dilemma to be honest with you. there is no right or wrong at this point. host: what are the best options, do you think? caller: i don't know. i want to go after the guy. we can't let him get away with this. he got away with syria. assad, whatever his name in syria, 11 years later, is still in charge.

obama said he would be dead in two months. if you let aggression go, then you are going to get more aggression. i really don't know. we live in a great country, we have prosperity, we have nice houses, i do, i'm happy, but this is going on in the world for real. host: to patrick next in florida. caller: yeah, there is no good situation. i think that the handling of this, i would start with south korea. put some troops over there where you can face north korea on your own. hello? host: you would put u.s. troops? caller: i would also tell

taiwan, look at what ukrainians are doing. they never fought for us in afghanistan or iraq, but we are only supposed to fight for their democracy? let them fight for their own. i have not been watching c-span that much lately, but israel, after what we have done for that country for 50 years, having a specia security relationship with russia, then russia can give them all of these billions of dollars in trade deals. on c-span, when the bosnia-herzegovina war was going on, about the same thing. genocide, wholesale assault going on. why are we nationbuilding?

why don't you recycle those people who keep talking? host: asking you this morning if you support or oppose the biden administration efforts in ukraine. go ahead, rob in new york. caller: i do oppose this. we have problems in our own country. we have a southern border that is wide open. i'm a lot more concerned about our borders and in ukraine's. as far as $13 billion goes, that would have given 13 -- $130,000 to about 100 thousand businesses that went bankrupt last year during the stupid planned-demic. host: comments from this past week from senator ted cruz. here's what he had to say. [video clip] >> what is missing is presidential leadership. president biden believes putin's

victory is inevitable. and that is reflected in every beef -- briefing we get and reflected in the strategy the administration is in permitting. i am reminded in the cold war when president reagan was asked, what is your strategy in the cold war? he said it is very simple, we win, they lose. that clarity directed our economic policy, diplomatic policy. we need that clarity to defeat putin. right now, the by the administration is trying to manage the decline of ukraine, manage ukraine losing. it is why the five items that senator portman listed, every one of them, the administration dragged their feet. every one of them, congress had to pull them to doing. it is why the administration is dragging their feet on providing mis. if you actually view the ukrainians as fighting to save their country and having a chance to provide -- defeat

putin, you would provide the migs. it is going on energy, this administration is not focused on defeating putin. if you want to defeat putin, you rob him of the revenue to fund his war machine, and also, if the remnants of the kgb and russian oligarchs see longtime european customers canceling their russian contracts and signing long-term contracts with american oil and gas producers and with the producers in our allied countries, nothing will put greater pressure on putin to either give up or to be thrown out of power. that is how you win, but none of it happens without a president who believes victory is possible. host: you can reach us by phone if you support or oppose the president's efforts. one line for oppose.

and on twitter, text and instagram. this one from robert who simply says this, do you mr. trump yet? stephen tweeps, it is good, but putin has upped the ante. we have to hit back harder now. we have to put this back on putin to bear the cost. this one says, why are you promoting hate against the russians? have we listened to both sides of this thing? keep in mind, we can poke the bear, but someone else has to deal with the angry bear. from jason who says biden has so far avoided trash and misguided reactions that would most certainly bring us in the open conflict with russia. as this war drags on and if becomes desperate to receive -- retrieve victory, actions become more desperate. one says unlike the eight members of congress, president biden was standing up along with the lessons of history in defiance of dictators and --

let's hear from tim in connolly springs, north carolina. caller: i think he is doing all he can do outside of starting another world war. host: ok. willie in ohio. also on the support line. good morning. caller: good morning to you. i could not understand his other alternative. if he did not help ukraine in their struggle, what would be the response of the world if he did nothing? and finally, i am naive about this, are there naval aircraft in the black sea?

host: u.s. or nato? caller: u.s.. host: i don't know that. caller: now, we have got something in common. thanks for your time. i get a little nervous on national tv. host: that is a good question. maybe somebody else does. there are certainly russian naval vessels in the black sea and certainly have been some ukrainian vessels, one of which is one of their main vessels. just for some reference on the maps, there is the black sea. mariupol is here on the coast just northeast of crimea. this is where the attack, one of the major attacks reportedly took place yesterday with rob -- russia bombing a school reportedly housing some 400 people. in ohio, we hear from tony on the oppose line.

caller: good morning, how are you today? host: fine, thank you. caller: i'm a retired educator. i say the word educate because critical thinking seems to be lost in the masses. we now indoctrinate people. i have always believed there are three sides to every story, so i dig deeper than what i see, what is being told and what is really going on. i would like to suggest to viewers or listeners and your staff to have some different views on anything, really. we could start with the great journalist chris hedges. mr. ralph nader, colonel lawrence wilkerson, mr. stephen cohen, and mr. ray mcgovern. they would be great for

educating us about what is going on and the war industry. host: good guest suggestions. appreciate that. we go to lee next in north charleston, south carolina. caller: good morning. i agree with president biden and what he is doing. he is doing the best thing he can do under the circumstances. i just don't understand why we have the republican senator always coming up on the screen with their advice. they never have anything positive to say. to help the president. he is all of our president. the thing is, we are in this right now. two or three years ago with the previous administration, what they have done was work on

shelving vladimir putin. it is in front of us. people don't want to admit it. we are in the problem we are in now and what is going to probably happen is we are going to go to war -- we are probably going to have to put boots on the ground. and when that happens and bodies start coming back over here, they're going to realize and try to find out why -- host: we mentioned the term earlier, humanitarian corridors. this is a piece in "the washington post" about that. they write that the united nations set about 9.8 million of ukraine's 44 million people have fled or have been internally displaced. 10 humanitarian corridors were open to saturday to help civilians flee, according to ukrainian officials.

about 1.5 million children have fled ukraine in the three weeks since russia's invasion, prompting the u.n. agency unicef to warn that they face a heightened risk of being trafficked or exploited. ukraine's president, volodymyr zelenskyy, spoke to a joint meeting of the u.s. congress that took place in the capitol visitor center. the president spoke directly via video speaking mostly in his native language but concluding his remarks in english saying this -- [video clip] >> today, it is not enough to be the leader of the nation. being the leader of the world means to be the leader of peace. peace in your country does not depend anymore on you and your people, it depends on those next to you and those who are strong. strong does not mean weak.

strong is brave and ready to fight for the lives of citizens and citizens of the world, for human rights, for freedom, the right to live peacefully and to die when your time comes. and not when it is wanted by someone else. by your neighbor. today, the ukrainian people are defending not only ukraine, we are fighting for the values of europe and the world in the name of the future. that is why today, the american people are helping not just ukraine, but europe and the world to keep the planet alive, to keep justice in history. now, i am almost 45 years old. today, my agent stopped when the

heart of more than 100 children stopped beating. i see no sense in life if it cannot stop the deaths. this is my main mission as the leader of my people, brave ukrainians. and as the leader of my nation, i am addressing president biden. you are the leader of the nation. of your great nation. i wish you to be the leader of the world. being the leader of the world means to be the leader of peace. thank you. >> glory to ukraine. [applause] host: part of the address wednesday by the ukrainian

president to members of congress. a caller a couple of moments ago asked about the u.s. naval presence in the black sea. this is from a viewer who says this in response about the naval strike group. the truman carrier strike group, the u.s. navy has more than 20 ships employed it the mediterranean sea. three russian guided missile cruisers have been spread across the black sea and the mediterranean sea to counter nato. thanks for that information, bill. back to your calls and comments on the administration's handling of the ukraine-russia conflict. let's go to andrew in indiana. caller: good morning. host: morning. go ahead. caller: what? host: make sure you mute your

volume and then go ahead with your comment. we are going to go to john in costa mesa, california. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i do support the biden administration in their financial -- those things. i am concerned that these munitions, all of the stuff could fall into russia hands. if the ukrainians fell. we are sort of hand strong by this formula because russia does not want nato, ukraine to become part of nato. but china is not hamstrung by their involvement in this. biden has warned china not to support russia.

if they do decide to support russia, then what are the consequences of that? that is a lot of stuff biden laid out. all of these rockets in munitions and all of that sort of thing. really, the turnkey is the planes. biden was for, but then the nato countries did not want to get involved. it is a real catch 22 here. a lot of moving parts. if russia invades, they have already taken over one town, that seaport. if they go ahead and take the whole country, the ukrainians are driving around in russian tanks. the russians could be using munitions. if they are going to take over different cities, how did the ukrainians keep these materials safe? do they move it out of the country? i don't understand that part of it, but i do support that he is

not just sitting back, biden, he is trying everything to keep us from turning into a worldwide third world war. host: let me ask you about your first point about these shifting alliances. how does the u.s. guarantee, how does the u.s. ensure that the alliances we currently have are not compromised, even those alliances we have with countries like india. you mentioned india is very close economically and militarily to russia. how do we ensure american interests are not compromised? caller: it is difficult because they have their own interests. ukraine has their interest and all of these other alliances, whether they are part of nato or not, our concern for their own interests. that is why the planes would not get shipped because of the

interest for nato is a group of people. who knew that russia was part of europe to begin with? and now, people are being drawn up into the space and we don't know -- this is what geopolitics is about and you and trust that to the people in positions of power. hopefully, they are taking all of that into account and you have these different nuclear powers, pakistan, france. i don't know the complete list of nuclear powers, but how close do you get to a full nuclear escalation and not do the smaller orange things? i don't know how much support -- there is only north korea because of china. the north korean war, the korean war with china's influence in that, that is why north korea

was able to hang on. i don't know the history of it, but this is going to be a big deal if china decides we are going to go ahead and support because they have done it in words. host: we will hear from alex next in connecticut. caller: good morning. my opposition to biden is in general to biden, but also to the u.s. policy. our u.s. policy is to send weapons. let's send weapons and more weapons. george mitchell was a diplomat under clinton. he was sent to ireland and made peace and help the peace process with northern ireland. the united states sends weapons to these countries.

they should send diplomats, diplomats, diplomats. find out, talk to both parties, both parties. the independent agent for reconciliation to find out how both parties can get together. the other issue i wanted to also bring up was i think it was an earlier caller, john said we should not send weapons now. we armed afghanistan to the teeth and where those weapons now? they are in the hands of the enemies. no more weapons. no more weapons. diplomats should be sent only to these spots. biden -- republicans and democrats are all speaking in lockstep with more weapons and more artillery. we have no need for weapons, send diplomats. host: this was touched on

earlier story, cnn report. mariupol residents are being forced to go to russia. they say residents are being taken to russia against their will by russian forces. the city council said over the past week several thousand residents have been taken to russian territory. the occupiers illegally took people from the district and from the shelter in the sports club building were more than 1000 people, mostly women and children, were hiding from the constant bombing. residents were taken the camps were russian forces checked their phones and redirected some them to remote cities in russia adding that the fate of others is unknown. we will hear from terry in nashville next on the opposed line. you're on the air.

caller: what i've got to say is when ronald reagan was with gorbachev he assured them he would never expand nato and ever since he got out of office, all we've done is expand nato and surround russia and they feel very threatened by us. the country was run over twice by the germans in the last century. there is nazis. it's just a waste of money. like the last gentleman said, don't pour more fuel on the fire , send diplomats and get this straightened out. our country spends on military defense, we spend more than the

next 10 countries combined, but where is the threat to us? host: on the point on the expansion of nato, this map was showing you a number of times, this map of the bbc. the expansion of nato since 1990 seven. countries in purple who are the original nato nations, countries and orange joined since 1997. those countries are estonia, a lot via, lithuania, czech republic, croatia, north macedonia and bulgaria. president zelenskyy in his address to congress on wednesday and did that address -- during that address showed this video which contains graphic images for those who have not seen it. ♪

host: video produced by the government of ukraine, asking you whether you support or oppose the administration's efforts in the ukraine russia war. 202-748-8000 for the line that you support. if you oppose, 202-748-8001. supreme court hearings get underway this week, reporting by the new york times and the headline as the hearing approaches, republicans are intensifying their attacks on judge brown jackson after previously reserving judgment on present by the supreme court nominee at of historic hearings on the first black woman being put forward but republican leaders wary of engaging in potentially racially charged spectacle what i would prompt a

political backlash have promised a dignified review of the latest candidate after a series of bitter clashes over the court and in recent days are nomination begin the monday, has shifted. plans we will be covering the entire hearing this week and on monday we will have live coverage of the hearing zero on c-span. you can follow them on c-span.org and our free mobile app, all of that getting underway. couple of comments on social media via text on her topic, marion california says i agree with the lady who called in regarding gas asked how biden is handling the ukraine war is getting very repetitive. this one's as president biden quickly mobilized our western allies to import the harshest

sanctions prudent has ever seen. he is putting -- hitting him where it hurts. amy says it's fine, president biden can't unilaterally decide to start world war iii. there has to be can -- consensus. putin's invasion is taking place in europe and europe must decide what actions it will take. we will hear from virginia in riverside, california. good morning. caller: thank you. i'm very concerned with what's going on over there. i don't think it's just merely repetition, i think it's very pathetic that people just want it -- find it repetitious. i think biden is doing the best he can, i'm happy they will have the meeting with nato this week, i wish you would've come sooner. i am a pacifist but i do believe that they should make ukraine a part of nato immediately, be it

an emergency meeting, whatever it takes, i would hope someone would come to our aid if we needed it. they are fighting for democracy for the second time since 2014. this was done in 208 as well. this is for democracy, this is for the freedom of the world, they are fighting for all of democracy. we stand out under the shining star, what's wrong with people. we need to get them under nato, we need to present to russia and china have that is the case and we know where that's can ago. but we have to stand up for democracy, for all people. people are fighting from the ground up. they don't have any planes and what little they have left. what's wrong with people? i just don't understand it.

let's stand up for what is right. host: let's hear from jennifer in cincinnati. caller: i would just say i do support her actions so far in ukraine. i believe patience is the better part of valor. so many people who were formerly saying we need to let people take care of their own business now want to go charging in with weapons and planes. it's hard to watch images of war. we can play into what i think is to engage in full on war. it's not just to get up you -- to help ukraine but to engage in war. we should let the sanctions work

and give the ukrainian people as much as we can and meant dashing humanitarian help. if people want to volunteer in that fight. host: let's go to donna in wisconsin on the opposed line. caller: i am against this war. i think that we should take care of our people bring millions of dollars and for what? that's like to make that country free. we have peace right here in america and do you think he cares? we have senior citizens, he's never done anything for them and i wish he would try and live on it. look at our children that only get free meals at school.

look at our people that are homeless, do you think he cares about them? no. he doesn't do anything for america. and the money he gave americans we pay taxes on. and we have got people right here in america the need to be taken care of. host: this is a story, you probably are the loss of for service -- for u.s. service members, for u.s. marines killed in a crash. they were killed in norway during your rate -- nato training exercise. they been taking part in a long planned exercise called cold response when there osprey aircraft crashed south in the

northern county. the note -- organized regularly by norway, the cold response exercises plan to teach survival skills in the arctic. nato said cold response 2022 is not linked to russia's invasion of ukraine. do u.s. osprey aircraft that crashed over the weekend. we will hear from melissa in kokomo, indiana. go ahead. caller: good morning. i am in total support of our presidents efforts. i think he's coalesced nato in amazing way since our last administration. however with the former kgb president putin you really can't trust his negotiation tactics and recently i've seen the foreign minister of russia, i

don't think they will stop at ukraine. this is really a fight for democracy. i think we will have to do more. they are stepping it up by attacking civilians and children. that is just inhumane. war is a crime. i think nato needs to do something more, pretty soon they will be on the back door of every other country. host: senator john cornyn of texas saying the u.s. needs to do more militarily. [video clip] >> ukrainian troops need more arms, they need antitank capabilities and they need aircraft. as present zelenskyy put it, the destiny of ukraine is being decided now as we speak. i believe we have a moral obligation, and not necessarily

a treaty application since they are not a part of nato but we have a moral obligation as a leader of the free world, talking about the united states as a whole, to support ukraine and help them defend their sovereignty and their people. poland, a member of nato offered to transfer an entire fleet of make 29 fighters to the united states for delivery to ukraine. ukrainian forces already know how to fly those russian aircraft and president zelenskyy assured us that they are desperately needed. but the biden administration rejected the offer out of fear it might provoke mr. pruden or in the terms of war, might escalate the conflict. winston churchill, another gray wartime leader aptly said and appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him

last. this cannot be the policy of the united states, we cannot appease vladimir putin and we cannot afford to be timid in the face of this greatest threat since world war ii. >> host: an update on the fighting in ukraine. fierce fighting continues across ukraine as a lenski calls for meaningful negotiations. nearly 10 million have fled as russia shall civilian targets. in a russian strike. to finally telling moscow the time it, for meaningful negotiations on peace is a barrage of russian attacks continued across the nation. at least 40 people were killed when a russian bomb at the military barracks in the

southern ukraine on friday. images verified by the washington post showed a multistory building folding inward on itself as giant plumes of smoke rise above it. the president in terms of discussions, negotiations with the russians they write the ukrainian forces continue to hold off russian attempt to advance on the capital. zelenskyy stepping up his efforts to resolve the war through diplomacy telling moscow it's time to talk, he added it was time to restore territorial integrity and justice for ukraine otherwise russia's losses would be so huge that several generations will not be enough to rebound. some of the comments from the ukrainian president. some comments this morning, this one says after a very poor afghanistan performance i fully support biden's thus far in ukraine, no american troops.

lynn says joe biden is not doing this alone, working with our alleys -- allies and working hard to prevent world war iii. this is putin's war, not joe biden's war. russia loves the news coverage with fox news saying they are doing a great job says gary in atlanta and a tweet saying how about the suffering of yemen for years by the weapons we give saudi arabia? millions of children's displaced. stop this war and stop poking of bears. that year calls on the topic in oregon city. caller: thanks for taking my call. we need to be the crocodile. i really think we need to do more, not only the video you

showed about ukraine with children dying and everything, but we have to think about the millions and millions of russian citizens who do not want him in power. we have displaced and replaced many dictators or -- fascist regimes that just cripple them and we are already crippling them enough. i say at this point it's escalated and we should go to alaska and start moving down and let him know they are depleted and take that country. set the people free, take the resources for us. were so worried about gas and electric cars and everything. i understand why we are not because we are like secret girlfriends with russia. it's the war machine we hear people talk of the complex and the educator earlier talking to us.

but again, if we want to do something here, we should really just do it and make that big alaska, hopefully a peaceful state. someone set about the homeless here. the homeless in our country are now looking at bombs falling on them, they are not being told what they can say or do. they are free to be homeless if they want to be and there is help for them. i just think we should really invade russia and occupy it. host: let's cut to texas next up. caller: oh lord, invade russia and occupied. note -- i don't sort out bidens handling it but it doesn't mean i don't support the efforts to aid ukraine. i don't believe of heard anyone compare -- everybody's comparing this involvement of the u.s. to

other wars since world war ii, even south korean war or afghanistan, iraq and vietnam were things didn't go as we had hoped. this is totally different. this is like south vietnam. south vietnam was not a treaty members far as i know with any of the countries that came to their aid. excuse me south korea. they were invaded by north korea. north korea was obviously starting as a proxy for the russians and then became a proxy for the chinese as they floated in. what the point is the united nations even supported to support the south koreans. this is even more than that though. ukraine especially since 2014 has changed a lot under the new

president and working with their efforts to combat the corruption that's been talked about so much. the people of the baltics, the people from poland and east to russia have lived a particularly unfortunate life when it comes to where they country -- where their country is been located the past hundreds of years. when folks talk about germany and how they started world war ii and they comment about how different things are now, this pushed germany to finally do things with offensive weapons. to changes they made in their -- the way they dealt with military things after world war ii. russia was equally responsible for world war ii. they had a nonaggression pact they signed in 1939. germany did not invade poland by

itself. they invaded from the east, russia invaded from the west. russia got more of poland than germany got in the not only signed a nonaggression pact that a special protocol in the packed. they signed a special protocol that was not written that define how they would carve up europe. estonia is the only country in nato to, in support of the no-fly zone. i was watching a movie the other night and pointed out estonia was taken by the russians without germany taking it. ukraine has been a battle area since. the soviet union took it in 1939 and the germans when they broke

the treaty in 1941 pushed the russians out of estonia and they conscripted thousands of estonians another army. host: based on a lot of that history, i'm glad you brought that, based on that and joe biden's years as senate foreign relations committee should his administration have been more aware of the potential for military conflict, the potential for russian invasion much earlier in his administration? caller: absolutely. the problem with bidens response and the reaction of the media and such because the media has such to do with the way things have been the last five or six years, one president trump was in helsinki, one of the reporters asked to make out your

question concerning whether he believed in -- information from his agency. it had to do with the russia hoax. he already knew he was being spied on. his intelligence agency don't forget during the 2020 election, over 50 heads of intelligence agencies including all these guys signed a letter that said the hunter biden laptop was most likely russian disinformation. and 95% of the news media ran with it, biden use that in the last debate to debunk the whole story. the basic difference between the trump administration and the biden administration or even the obama administration, his cabinet people were experts in

their field. and obama people were mostly professors, -- host: a let you go there. will go to mike in oakland park, florida. >> i'm glad to hear that last caller who knows something about history because so many people who've been calling knows nothing about the area. whenever they talk about the soviet union being invaded by the germans, the nazis with belarus and ukraine when they invaded the soviet union and they're the ones who suffered the most under the nazis. my mother was taken by the nazis to work as a slave labor insurer

many in 1942, may 22. so ukraine has suffered many times and when they're dealing now with the person who doesn't even think that ukraine is a separate nation and should not even exist, how can you make peace with a person like that? the only way this conflict can be resolved is if ukraine wins and biden so far has been doing the right thing, but all of nato needs to speed up the weapons shipments as the russians are gaining more of a foothold in ukraine and ukrainians are fighting valiantly for all of us. host: conflict elsewhere in the

world in dark for an sudan -- in darfur and western sudan. writing about the conflict in the region tormented by two decades of violence that began in 2003 right the new york times and led to the death of his many as 300,000 people. in 2019 popular uprising ousted the longtime ruler. many participated hoping it would bring peace to the region. instead the situation is only deteriorated. violent attacks against largely ethnic african communities have surged in the past year with more than 420,000 people forced to flee their homes in 2021 up from 54,000 one year earlier.

a couple of comments on social media about the opening topic. this one says i'm grateful every day the previous guys no longer in the white house. it would gift wrap ukraine -- he would have gift wrap ukraine for putin. i would be more willing to test christopher with this post on the pope's comments today in rome. perrault -- pope francis, the aggression against ukraine has not ceased there is no justification for this. the pope called to those continuing fleeing the war, all this is inhumane and sacrilegious. howard next up in new york. good morning. caller: thank you. war is intoxicating to the human spirit. when fort sumter was bombed,

they were dancing in the streets across the south but a few years later when sherman marching through, and no one was dancing. we have a lot of people suggesting to invade russia through alaska. we have to think it through. we are dealing with someone who even though the russian constitution says you can only be present for eight years he put in medvedev and became prime minister and then came back to be president. war is hell. the only thing you will do by entering a war is escalating the war pride all those images you have are only good to be more by trying to have a no-fly zone and trying to escalate the war. the more we realize that there will only be more children dying if we don't negotiate.

it's been happening for centuries ukraine needs to negotiate. countries do not have friends, we have interests and that the sad truth. in the interest of this country we need at -- we need peace. host: we will continue our conversation on the war in ukraine. we will talk about the u.s. and nato's international response to the russia ukraine crisis. later we will talk about allegations of war crimes in the conflict with a top international law expert from georgetown university. ♪ >> i'm pleased to nominate judge jackson with each ordinary qualifications, deep experience and a rigorous judicial record. >> i am truly humbled by the

extraordinary honor of this nomination and i am especially grateful to the care you have taken in discharging their constitutional duty in the service of our democracy with all that's going on in the world today. >> president biden nominates to the u.s. court of appeals for the district of columbia circuit to the seat over tiring justice stephen breyer to -- on the u.s. supreme court. jackson if confirmed would become the first african american woman to serve on the high court. watch our uninterrupted coverage of the confirmation hearing starting monday at 11:00 a.m. eastern on c-span, c-span.org or downloading the c-span now video app. >> there are a lot of places to get political information but only at c-span do you get it straight from the source. no matter where you are from or

where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if that happened anywhere that matters, america is watching on c-span. powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: melinda is with us, she is deputy director of the eurasia center and likewise has lived in ukraine for a number of years, worked there as a journalist and currently as we mentioned at the eurasia center. welcome to washington journal. guest: thanks for having me. host: what does your organization do? guest: i work at the atlantic council and we are tank, with 15 different centers but eurasia

center is one of those centers and we are the largest program focused on ukraine in north america. it's led by the former u.s. ambassador to ukraine. the two of us have run it for a while and we put out a very active blog and we are trying to understand ukraine. it's changed vastly since 2014. one of your callers noted that earlier. we go to ukraine regulators, we talk on capitol hill and answer their questions. talk to the american people and answer their questions. i think tank is a university without students. host: when you see things like video but was shown by the president in his speech last week and reports of the country lived in for some time, is this far worse than you had expected the russian attack? guest: yes it is. i did think putin would go in,

wrote an article last november arguing it was gametime and when putin was putting the troops around ukraine it was not a bluff. i wasn't surprised he went in, i have been surprised how deep he went in. i thought he would go to the river and try to take about a third of the country. on day one on the 24th of february he went into 17 of 27. he went deep into ukraine. i was surprised by that. host: talking to our viewers about how they viewed the administration's response, tell us how you feel about president biden and his administration and the response to the war? guest: president biden has a long history with foreign policy. my assessment has changed. last week i would've given them probably a b or a b-.

they are doing better this week. they are sending more systems that ukraine needs. in summary though they are doing the right thing, they are just slow. the american people need to pressure the white house and congress to continue to support ukraine into the right thing. i don't think the white house has very much courage. they are very afraid of russia and escalation but they keep forgetting that russia is escalating, not the west. my biggest criticism right now of the white house as they are hypocrites on the refugee issue. many people like me would like to see ukrainians in their homes and we can get our friends here because of the visa system. it takes nine months for someone to get a visa in poland to come to the united states where americans want to bring them into their homes. he needs to change it. host: how does the administration handle the

refugees >> who came from afghanistan? guest: not well. we obviously have a very big problem into this country with the refugee system. the system is broken and needs to be overhauled. host: in terms of the military the president announcing $800 million more worth of military aid. the total during his administration, 2 billion in military and humanitarian aid. does it get to appoint the delivering that aid to ukrainian forces could risk involving nato forces in that in the units actually delivering that aid? guest: so far no. everything's ok with the delivery systems and it is being used and is making a difference. the ukrainian side is telling us it's made an enormous difference. i'm not worried about the delivery of the systems. host: i want to play for you the comments of the defense

secretary this past week in europe as you're aware the administration has nixed the idea of a no-fly zone over ukraine. here is what the secretary said last week and then i will get your reaction. [video clip] >> the ukrainian president set up calls again and again for a no-fly zone over ukraine at the level of nato there were discussions about that and what is the conclusion. >> from a u.s. perspective our president has been clear that we would not have u.s. forces fighting in ukraine. having said that, we will do everything within our power to support ukraine in their efforts to defend their territory. we've also stated enforcing a no-fly zone actually means that

you're in combat, you are in a fight with russia and that's one of the things that we have said that our president has said that we are not going to do. so what this really means is in order to control the skies you have to shut down air defenses are on the ground and some of those air defense systems are in russia and so again there's no easy or simple way to do this, there's no such thing as a no-fly zone light. a no-fly zone means you're in a conflict with russia. from a u.s. perspective, our position remains we are not going to do that. host: melinda, your thoughts on what secretary austen had to say. guest: i think the administration is too timid and they are wrong about the no-fly zone.

i'm not can argue for a full no-fly zone. i think that would lead to escalation in the u.s. is not ready for it. what i do think makes sense though is a limited no-fly zone in western ukraine and it would be done for humanitarian reasons. he is right that it will involve shooting down russian planes and it would lead to some conflict. does that mean world war iii? no. the u.s. and russia have been involved in direct combat before in syria and it did not lead to world war iii. it's a canard that no-fly zones automatically equates to world war iii. host: in not -- in other words protect those areas from people fleeing from other battle areas, areas where battles are happening elsewhere. host: absolute -- guest: absolutely.

the estimate is 3 million ukrainians have fled. 3 million have gone to the european union. 1.5 of those 3.1 our children. it really breaks my heart. there's no water there, people are boiling snow so they have drinking water. the russians are done appalling war crimes, they hit a theater with children in front of it. they don't care about human life , there is a tiny bit of good news, 7000 residents were able to leave yesterday and i think 4000 of them for -- were from mariupol. it's hard to get them to agree to humanitarian zones. they are notorious for backing up on it. they might agree in then start shooting at civilians. no one trusts the russians to actually follow through on humanitarian orders print that's why a no-fly zone makes sense.

a limited no-fly zone. host: we welcome your calls and comments. here are the lines. democrat, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents and others, 202-748-8002. you can send in a text that 202-748-8003. on the diplomatic side on the negotiation side, this is a headline from this week's financial times. ukraine and russia exploring trolley plan in peace talks. president zelenskyy pushing further for more negotiations. what's the likelihood of any sort of negotiated settlement happening in the coming weeks? >> it's going to be very difficult. it's good that they are talking. so one ski is asking for a meeting with putin. putin does not want to meet with him directly. the russians haven't sent

serious people. when the russians actually send someone with some gravitas, they will know they are serious about negotiation. basically only can be described -- i don't think putin is in a mood to negotiate. the article you talked about has a lot of interesting details. everybody wants to claim credit and be the negotiator who brings peace to ukraine. the french have tried, the turkish have tried. everyone's trying. and basically the latest and greatest is that ukraine is saying it may consider nato neutrality but the sticking point is the status of crimea. russia says its hours. they illegally annexed in 2014. ukraine and the western community say no way. crimea is in support -- in pursuit -- in dispute.

zelenskyy has said we will not give our territory away, and he shouldn't. the real sticking point will be western security guarantees. if ukraine is willing to trade away its nato aspirations for western security guarantees they will have to really mean it. the west has to mean it this time. in 1994 there western security guarantees print ukraine gave up secure -- nuclear weapons for security guarantees that were meaningless. host: given what happened after 2014, how can any settlement not end with some sort of ongoing internal conflict in ukraine? guest: if the russians leave, if they de-escalate and take all of their weapons systems, there's knocking to be in ukraine britain there is no such thing

as civil war in ukraine. like i said before it's changed a lot since 2014. the academic community talks about east and west and russian and ukrainian speaking. a lot of that has changed though. people are identifying as ukrainian and choosing to speak the ukrainian language first. ukraine is a complicated country , but there is no civil war. the problem is russian aggression. once russia leaves. >> you have spent some time in ukraine, what do you know about how this war is being received or perceived in russia? guest: this is a complicated question because we don't have a lot of information. russia is increasingly isolated,

people cannot travel, they cannot use their visa card. russians my age are upset and have a -- have tried to move to europe. they don't want to live in the soviet union print russia has been talking about how russia feels like north korea. i think there's a lot of discontent. we don't how deep it is. there was polling done before february 24 which found 50% of russian supported the legal annexation of crimea and the independence, but that was before the 24th and we know a lot of russians don't like the images of violence against children. my guess is 50-50. we don't know. the kremlin says 70% approve of vladimir putin. i find that dubious at best. host: i want to show our viewers

a pictures of the ukrainian soldier with the antitank missiles, 2000 of these provided in the latest package of military aid. u.s.: ukraine, stave off boot without setting him off. they write about those weapons that cia officers are helping to ensure that crates of weapons are delivered to the hands of ukrainian military units. but as of now mr. biden and his staff do not see the utility of an expanse of the effort to use the spy agency to arm the united states -- they have judged that such a campaign would be unnecessary provocation in part because nato supply lines remain open and there's a functioning government in kyiv. my question is when and if there isn't a functioning government in kiev or elsewhere in ukraine, how would those weapons get through? >> if the government falls in

key haven't has to go somewhere else, of the united states will look at different options. i think the biden administration has made the right assessment, the army is working brilliantly and a large group of ordinary people who have joined the resistance. they are sending the weapons systems to the right places. will the united states change its policy if it were to fall? yes. will it aid the resistance? yes. host: as we go to calls we will show our viewers the package just announced by the white house and some of the elements included in that military assistance. we will go to our first caller in florida on the independent line. >> good morning and thanks so much. thank you very much for shedding that light.

as melinda said, russia had 100,000 troops on the border sitting there. wondering is anybody going to do anything about this. it was a test for the world. everyone knew this invasion was can happen and i don't consider this to be so called war, i consider it an invasion. we the united states we know the world needs to do something to make sure if russia gets their way they will continue and keep going, what do we need to do? we need to step up. if it's a partial no-fly zone, it needs to happen. you flexed your muscle, now we flexed hours.

rather than tearing down our president we need to prepare -- for these people because this is a delegate situation and again it's a test for the world. thank you for taking my call. host: thank you. any thoughts? guest: i think that was spot on. there are more options we can be doing, the u.s. side. i'm sorry for the jargon, there's -- we can continue to increase sanctions pressure on russia. sanctions experts say we need to be focused on shipping so that's were one of the loopholes in sanctions are. on the military side, i've been in washington for a long time. i don't think the administration will change its mind about the no-fly zone. i think there's utility in the

american people telling the white house and telling congress that we support this and the ukrainian people. as individuals we need to open our wallets and be helping ukrainians and sending money to good charities. i give to a 501(c) three in new york city sending medical supplies to ukraine. we also should tell the biden administration keep the military assistance coming. they are doing a good job with that. consider more sanctions and keep the military systems coming. i couldn't agree with your caller anymore. this is a very difficult situation, this is not about just ukraine. this is about stopping the westernized and drive in ukraine, it's about humiliating the west, terry naito apart and rewriting the security architecture in europe. putin wants to be king and we

are not to let him -- let that happen. it's going to take a while and be painful and the people of ukraine will bear the suffering and the cost and i agree with alfonso we need to pray for biden and his team. i think it's right. we'd be gracious in our response. >> let's hear from nick in michigan, it says you are ukrainian and you just got back from kyiv. host: good morning -- caller: good morning. i just came back from kyiv yesterday and the situation is pretty messed up, but ukrainian soldiers really put up an unbelievable fight and a lot of countries in europe are organizing anything that goes towards everything and that's

also sending a drone that's basic with the most successful so far of damaging the russians tanks and military and the latest news i heard that 20,000 russian troops have actually died until today while this war is going on. they planned this for so long because after every olympic games they invaded part of ukraine.

it's been planned on yugoslavia, bosnia. we need to help them as much as we can, at least a no-fly zone. another part where people are flying from their homes. >> you still have family and friends back in ukraine? caller: ♪ yes -- caller: yes i have a family that immigrated after the war and they started working over there and they stayed there to fight. i went over there to see if i can bring back the united states

. it's not yet a build and pass. host: any comments or questions for our caller. guest: we need to change your legislations so ukrainians and be invited into our homes. ukrainians don't want to live in poland, germany and france. the situation with potential refugees is quite different they are not looking to build new life in new countries, they want to live in ukraine. it's one of the reasons why congress to allow ukrainians to come in. host: one says what good would

ukraine be to putin if it's just destroyed? guest: i have to go back to the old aphorism. without ukraine, russia ceases to be an empire. that's basically the best summary i can give you. look back advisory pollutants long-winded struggle in july. he wrote about 6000 words. saying ukraine is not a real country, my russian historic lands sit in ukraine. vladimir putin and his team around him have been convinced for a long time that ukraine is not real and part of it is he has to destroy ukraine because of it becomes a vibrant democracy and he won't have any more places. host: republican line, go ahead. caller: i need to ask the united

nations and nato when does inaction become a failure to act? i believe first of all we need to impeach biden and the rest of the administration for subversion, being pressured by the environmentalists is not an excuse. maybe if they are impeached they can invoke the 25th amendment if they are charged with treason for entering into talks using russia as he calls a war criminal and using russia as a deviation. one thing she didn't get to is ukraine is on a port in they have natural resources i believe mr. putin wants. we have to stop the bribery in

the house. you can allow democrats to tax the oil companies 50% and take that money to give to low income families. does elizabeth warren fancy herself as robin hood? host: melinda, on the report about the ports. the strategic importance of crimea and having more access to the black sea for russia. guest: russia would love to have access to ukraine sports. it would love to choke off ukraine's to the sea. a huge amount -- they export a huge amount of grain, it would really hurt world food prices and cripple the ukrainian economy. russia controls crimea now so it has the major port. it's really serious. there are other reports on the black sea that ukraine still

controls. do they covet them? sure. but that's not what this is about. this is something much bigger. vladimir putin has set for a long time that the greatest failure of the 20th century was the failure of the soviet union. he is angry. he thinks the west is treated him terribly and he really feels the injustice of the 90's. this is not about russia stealing ukraine's energy resources. she misunderstands and mischaracterizes putin's motivations completely. host: franklin in philadelphia on the democrats line. caller: i've been listening for a while and i do not know what this -- if this topic has been raised. something that's been concerning

me, if you look at russian history, both pre-and post soviets. the russians have been masters at infiltrating western european countries and placing people in positions of influence in order to influence those countries policies. the soviets of course ratcheted that up in the united states did not become aware of the extent of soviet -- i don't know what you call it, soviet placing people in positions of influence in the u.s.. we didn't know how many people they had until they came out with those papers in the 70's when they found out there were

active soviet agents at all levels of american government. this -- i wonder if this is something we need to be concerned about now. we hear all these people to come out for putin and the republican party that are trying to run away but i wonder how many of them, of those people we know about certainly and are actually on russian and how many other people we don't know about could be placed in places of influence in our government. host: we'll get a response from our guest. guest: good morning, philadelphia. i think that's an excellent, excellent point. but it's not -- i wouldn't make it as a partisan point. it's much broader. in the past, you pointed out that there were fellow travelers who were sympathetic to the soviet union, in the soviet period. that was sort of the currency. the currency now for being a

putin is money. look at germany and look at schroeder. the russians are really good at buying people and buying influence. they've done a very, very good job of that. i think more work needs to be done to sort of out those people. although i will say, i'm encouraged, western europe has changed massively since the 24th of february when putin invaded ukraine again. it's woken up to the russian threat. i think parliaments around western europe need to do more to get rid of russian money in our system. it's called the russian laundromat. and britain in people, london in particular, need to get rid of russian money. host: a previous position, melinda, you oversaw democracy assistance programs in russia, in the country of georgia, and in as badge an. how does democracy factor into what we're talking about today, with the invasion of ukraine? guest: ukraine is a democracy. if you look at freedom scores,

the n.g.o. that has measured democracy, ukraine has been a democracy for a long time. it has independent elections. it has relatively clean elections. russia is not a democracy. is ukraine, does it have laws? absolutely. we can talk about this in a lot of depth t. has a problem with its court system, the independence of the court system. it has a problem -- it has a major corruption problem. but since 2014, ukrainians decide that had they wanted to live in a real democracy they didn't want to be part of russia's sphere of influence. they had to choose their own destiny and be part of the west. ukraine has been making a lot of progress since 2014. there have been ups and downs, and it's not perfect, and they have aa lot of room to go, but they've been making slow but steady progress toward becoming a more western democracy. russia has been going in the opposite way. host: the "new york times" radio writes this morning about the country of georgia. the headline at nytimes.com,

ukraine reminds georgia of its own war with russia. that creates a dilemma, extensive piece online. how concerned are you, melinda, about potential further attacks against the country of georgia? russia during that 2008 invasion took some portion of the part of georgia, now controls that area. guest: yes, two points on this. let me back up just a tiny bit. i think the west made a catastrophic decision in 2008. we got to go to bucharest, romania, and that was where the nato summit was held. at that time, ukraine and georgia both wanted to join nato. they were going to be promised eventual nato membership. they were told the door is open, but they weren't given a time frame. and that, i think, own availabled vladimir putin. vladimir putin has been able to drive a tank through that. the war in georgia happened shortly thereafter that you just

described. this has been putin's policy, he eats away and tests western resolve. so yes, is he going to go after georgia next? i don't think so. could he? sure, he could. he could go after moldova too. is he going after poland and the baltic states? i don't think so. i think he's scared of nato. frankly, he's not doing very well in ukraine. would i be afraid if i were in georgia? not really. given the low morale, the fuel shortages, the food shortages that the russian soldiers face, i would be pretty calm if i were there right now, honestly. host: you said at the start of our conversation you were surprised by the level of attack by the russians. are you also surprised by the performance of the russian military? guest: yes. i'm just going to say that my community, the analytical community got it wrong. we overestimated the strength of the russian forces and underestimated the strength of the ukrainian side.

looking back on it now, hindsight is 20/20. the factors we should have seen were, this is not putin's first rodeo in ukraine. he's been there since 2014. the ukrainian soldiers are much more motivated. this is an existential struggle. they know their territory. they know it's very, very well. because this has been going on for eight years, there's people who have fought in the war and who have filtered through and know how to fight, and they know how to fight hard. i'm not -- looking back on it, we should have said the ukrainians would be able to hold these cities much longer than they have. the original intelligence assessment was that putin would be able to roll in and take kyiv in a couple of days, and he would be able to push zelenskyy out of the way and install a pro-russia puppet, and boy, were we wrong. host: let's hear from sheila in wyoming. caller: thank you for having me. i have a couple of questions and a couple of thoughts. the first one you kind of

addressed a little bit of it. at this point, we see where ukraine is in desperate need of a lot of things. and should russia be able to take the whole country of ukraine and we stand by and watch this genocide, what stops putin from going after poland, lithuania, estonia? because he will continue to use the threat of nuclear weapons. and my second thought is that he's shown such a poor performance with taking any custody of areas in ukraine. what if that's a ploy? what if that is, in fact, a timeline he's waiting to see how much we'll take? just will we allow so much to happen so that whenever he does or should take over ukraine, he knows what his timelines would

be to push and shove to see what nato would do? and i understand that most people would think that, you know, europe and everyone would be more invested, but should he pull that card again of using nuclear weapons, will we have to back off? host: ok, sheila, thanks. guest: good morning, sheila. thanks for getting up so early to chat. what stops putin? i think that's a great question. nato stops putin. he is afraid of nato, and he does not want a nuclear confrontation with nato. in my best assessment, he's not going to try to attack poland or the baltic states. could poland be inadvertently drawn in? yes, it could. there's a huge number of ukrainian refugees and military assistance is going through poland. does that make them vulnerable? yes, it does. they are nervous. but they have nato protection, so they have article five guarantees. and what that means is if a nato

member is attacked, all the nato members will get together and they will vote. they have to take a vote, and then they will defend nato if the vote is done in the right way. so poland has nato protection. onyx, i'll tell you quite honestly, a few weeks ago i was really scared, i thought it was 50-50 putin would use a tactical nuke in ukraine. he's acting very differently than -- i've been studying putin since 1999 when he became the leader of russia. he's always been a cautious risk taker. and what he did on february 24 was not the -- those were not actions of a cautious risk taker. he bet the whole house on ukraine. and he's acting differently. he's always been paranoid. he's a former spy, right? he got even more paranoid and increasingly isolated during covid. we have so little information about his circle that it's only

speculation. but we can say that his behavior has changed. he's very emotional and volatile right now, which scares me, honestly, that he might use nuclear weapons. then i talk to people in the special nuke, and they said calm down, it's not what you think it is, putin has a history of making -- a using nuke, so there's a history of him threatening and not using. and in this case, he hasn't changed anything. he's only talked about it. he hasn't changed his nuclear posture. so i am not worried about him using nukes. i think that it just shows how desperate he is. on the second scenario on whether this is a test, he doesn't have anything else. he's throwing everything at ukraine. and he's stuck. so i don't find that very plausible, but thanks for your call. host: a question from twitter, does the u.n. have a mechanism for establishing temporary humanitarian no-fly zones for humanitarian quarters moving noncombatants and wounded west?

guest: i'm so association i'm not a specialist on the u.n., so i can't answer that. host: let's hear from john in washington, michigan, independent line. john, you're on the air. i'm sorry, derian in winston-salem, north carolina, go ahead. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. the thing that i wanted to say was putin tried to join the k.g.b. when he was 17 years old. and he was turned around when he was living in st. petersburg, he was turned around and told no. and he returned back to the k.g.b. five years later with a law degree and was compared, he was compared to working in east germany, to go through germany, world war ii intelligence files. that right there lays out a plan

to me, that what he's doing now has actually been done before, and that's why i feel like the united states needs to reflect more on history in order to stop this situation. the one thing that he wants -- the one thing that he hates most is for the ukraine to join nato. why? because nato has what's called a rapid arrow program. if you are not familiar with the nato rapid arrow program, it's where they get these systems placed throughout the country which pretty much makes it a no-fly zone. now, understand why the biden administration is not going with the no-fly zone, because it could be ince hear. i believe there may be a way around that. just by people replacing the transponders in certain drones.

and they have other models, but especially the wrinkles. this will give ukraine an added defense and would likely take out a lot of the component that's in the air destroying some of them places. my heart really goes out to the ukraine. i've been watching this from day one since it started. a realize this was not just a coordinated attack against ukraine, but against us as well. if you look back into the early 2000's, the f.b.i. ran a sting called operation ghost stories, where they were rushing people living among us here in the u.s. that had prominent jobs and things of influence. i believe this is a coordinated attack, not just against ukraine, but against the united states as well. host: melinda? guest: so many good points.

so i agree with you. how many ukrainians have to die before we do more? that's one question that i'm wrestling with. my family is partly ukrainian. i married into ukrainian family, so this is personal for me. i lived there since 2007. i have hundreds of friends there. it's really hard to watch this. it really disturbs me that we can't do more. on putin, this is an excellent book, it's called "the new czar." your point is right there, that if putin was a spy. don't overestimate this. dresden was a place where the losers went. i would say don't overestimate his spy credentials. he's not a top-rated spy. i think that's an important point. but i agree with a lot of the points you made. i understand that there's a real risk of escalation if we do a full no-fly zone, but i think it can be done in a smart and wise, limited way to make sure that

fewer and fewer ukrainians, innocent children die. host: there's an opinion piece in "the washington post" this morning by senator marco rubio of florida. the headline of which says, china is complicit in russia's war on ukraine. what's your view of china's role and influence in this conflict? guest: it's a great question, and i think, honestly, it's t.b.d. the russians have asked chinese for weapons, and they've asked them for m.r.e.'s. they've asked for financial loans as well. we don't know what china is going to do. the relationship between xi and putin is interesting. they have these outspoken gifts that they give each other, necklaces, vodka shots, they make bellinis together. they're always doing photo ops. it looks like an axis of authoritarianism. i don't think the relationship, though, is as deep and as scary as the headlines though. i think that if you go down a

couple of levels, within the russian and chinese government, there's more areas of disagreement than agreement. i don't think the bottom line is the chinese are going send weapons. they may send some m.r.e.'s or give some kind of financial assistance, but i think the chinese are smart enough to know that if they give military assistance, it's going to hurt them very, very badly. host: let's hear from john in washington, michigan. now you're on the air, i apologize. go ahead. caller: that's fine. hi, melinda. i had a question for you. do you think it would be worthy of looking at the architecture, the relationship between the fins and the russians to have some kind of diplomacy? i understand the word finland and the carrot and the stick, but maybe there would be something there to look at. and do you think the united states has those wise men of the

past, like a george kenin to actually pull something off like that, you know, to bring no passion to the table, which is such a requirement. thank you very much. guest: i love that question, and i don't want to be down beat, but i don't see any of these wise statesmen who have the ability to negotiate something like that in this administration. i think you would have to pull someone out. i know some of them, they're in their 70's, that could do this, but you'd have to pull them out of their retirement. the immediate team around biden worries me, to be frank. the immediate team around biden that advises him on russia and ukraine, they're realists. i think there's more to life than just pure naked interests. there's people, there's human suffering. and i don't think america should

stand by or avert its eyes when innocent lives are being killed. i hope that they can bring someone out of retirement who could be involved in the negotiations, but frankly, i don't think the americans -- i don't think we are going to be the major players. it looks like the israelis are going to be the broker when a deal is struck. macron has tried, and he looks pretty silly. erdogan in turkey has tried, and his relationship is complicated. they keep selling drugs to the ukrainians, which complicates things. but i think israel could be the right negotiator. i think both sides trust them. the israelis are tough. there's ukrainian citizens who live in israeli, a lot of russian citizens who live in israel. there's national business ties with both as well. i think that they're probably the most likely negotiator. host: melinda haring from the atlantic council, thanks for being with us this morning. guest: thank you. host: more ahead here on

"washington journal." more of your phone calls on the russian-ukraine conflict, and just a bit later on after that, we'll talk about war crimes. we'll be joined by anthony arend from georgetown university, an expert on the topic of war crimes, both current and the history of war crimes. there's more ahead here on "washington journal." >> weekends bring you book tv, featuring leading authors on their latest nonfixes books. afterwards, we talk about 25 lies, where he argues that democratic party leaders and progressive policies are purposely misleading the american public and destroying the country. he's interviewed by syndicated columnist armstrong williams. and from this year's savannah book festival in georgia, we'll feature some of the author talks, including "beautiful country," jared alexander with

"volunteers: growing up in the forever war." michael ian black with his book "a better man." and margaret coker, author of the spy master of baghdad, a true story of bravery, family, and prettyism in the battle against isis. watch book tv and find a full schedule on your program guide, or watch online any time at booktv.org. >> c-span has unfiltered coverage of the response to ukraine, bringing the latest from white house officials, the pentagon, and the state department, as well as congress. we also have international perspectives from foreign leaders, all on the c-span networks, the c-span now free mobile app, and c-span.org/ukraine. our web resource page, where you can watch the latest videos on demand and follow tweets from

journalists on the ground. go to c-span.org/ukraine. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we'd like to hear your thoughts on how the administration is handling the crisis in ukraine, war in ukraine. if you support the administration's efforts, that line is 202-748-8000. if you oppose, 202-748-8001. you can send us a text or a tweet as well, text line is 202-748-8003. tell us your name and where you're texting from. seven humanitarian corridors to open sunday, today. owe up officials say ukraine will open seven humanitarian corridors on sunday to allow civilians to leave frontline areas, according to the country's deputy prime minister. they added in a statement that the humanitarian corridors will allow the evacuation of residents of settlements

targeted in the russian invasion, as well as to send aid, evacuation from the city of mariupol and another city is planned as the next region. they're saying that the buses for mariupol residents will wait in front of the city's sports complex, reports from ukraine say. so there are humanitarian corridors opening up today in ukraine for that. some of the comments we're getting from folks on twitter and via text include this one from lee, who says this, basedded on our last conversation, how can we implement a no-fly zone without flying into russia first and taking out the ballistic missiles that would shoot down our planes? this one says, yes, russians are responsible for fringe ideas like brexit becoming mainstream, like trump becoming president, like ukraine isn't really a country, like a tactical nuclear war is winnable. without russian propaganda, the world would be a better place.

and from an a, who says it's authoritarian versus democracy, it's corrupt dictators with no accountability versus the rule of law. the west has played footsie with these corrupt dictators, luring dirty money and enabling these corrupt dictators with lax tax havens and shell companies. let's get to your calls, and we'll go first to brooklyn. good morning. caller: i just have some comments on the conflict itselfg think that they know putin. hype just mute your set and continue with your comments. caller: ok, yeah, nobody in the western world knows putin.

putin has been pushed and pushed and pushed. and the last thing he wants to do was invade ukraine. but he was at his wit's end. he's not going to have ukraine in nato. period. host: do you approve of his tactics to prevent that? caller: well, not imposing a no-fly zone, yeah, of course you can't have a no-fly zone. that means war. but my point is that if you back him into a corner, you may reap the rewards, because he could launch at any time. and to think that people say, he's not going to do that, he's

not going to do that, you do not know him. nobody does. host: to mike nell grand rapids, michigan, good morning. caller: yes, hi. one thing that people keep talking about, biden's role in the ukrainian war, but we also, i've not heard anyone mention the fact that it's congress that's supposed to be declaring war and sending our troops to war. the war power act says 9 0e days and they got to report to congress, and congress should decide. to me, congress is more using the situation in europe, especially the republicans, in fact, definitely the republicans, just the little tool to attack biden, get ready for the coming elections, using, for example, even the afghanistan withdrawal. what about vietnam's withdrawal?

wasn't that quite messy? so, again, i think that congress needs to step up and do the job of declaring war, not just crying and whining about things that really won't work. use nuclear weapons, jeez, wow, thank you. host: this is from "the washington post," the headline, sanctions begin to bite, russia turns to india to buy oil and arms. when russia faced international condemnation and sanctions after president vladimir putin launched his february 24 invasion of ukraine, india stayed on the diplomatic sidelines. now as those economic sanctions begin to bite, moscow is again turning to india. india, the world's biggest oil importer behind china and the united states has agreed to purchase three million barrels of russian oil at a heavy discount, an indian official said on thursday. the purchase, first reported by "the wall street journal," is small given russia's production and indian demand, but the volume could increase in the coming months and reinforce a

growing perception that india is determined to preserve its extensive trade and military ties with moscow, even as the united states and its allies urge governments around the world to isolate russia. indiana next up, we'll hear from donald. donald, go ahead. you're on the air. caller: yes. host: go ahead, donald, you're on the air. caller: ok. all this turmoil that's going on is biden's fault. and i recognize from one of his speeches that he was mentally impaired, and so does putin. that's why he's doing all this stuff. host: do you think it's making -- in your view, is it making, forcing joe biden to make bad decisions in this war? caller: yeah. he's mentally impaired. i knew that from his first speech he gave.

and anyway, he talks about these electric cars. that's not very practical. host: all right, to new york, james, good morning, on the support line. james in new york, you're on the air. james in new york, are you there? you're on the air. go ahead with your comment. caller: yeah, i support everything biden is doing. although i don't think putin is crazy. i think he's just playing a game. he's playing poker. i have a friend who's chinese, and they said he would never push any nuke buttons, that the chinese would stop him. the only thing, my concern is, what's all this talk about nazis being in ukraine? is that all propaganda? that's something i think we

should look into a little bit more. host: all right, president biden this week, this coming week he will head to meetings in brussels, meetings with nato allies and leaders. that will be happening later this week, on thunderstorms of this week. this past week, wednesday, after president zelenskyy' speech to congress, president biden announced additional military and humanitarian aid. president biden: once again i'm using my presidential authority to activate an additional security assistance to continue to help ukraine fend off russia's assault. additional $800 million in assistance. that brings the total of new u.s. security assistance to ukraine to $1 billion, just this week. these are the direct transfers of equipment from our department of defense, ukrainian military, to help them as they fight against this invasion. now, i thank the congress for appropriating these funds. this new package is going to

provide unprecedented assistance to ukraine. it includes 800 anti-aircraft systems, to make sure that the ukrainian military can continue to stop the planes and helicopters that have been attacking their people and to defend ukrainian airspace. and at the request of president zelenskyy, we have identified and are helping ukraine acquire additional longer range anti-aircraft systems and ammunitions for the systems. a new assistance package also includes 9,000 anti-armor systems. these are portable, high accurate, high accuracy, shoulder-mounted missiles that ukrainian forces have been using with great effect to destroy invading tanks and armored vehicles. it will include 7,000 small arms, machine guns, shotguns, grenade launchers, to equipment ukrainians, including the brave women and men who are defending their cities on the countryside as well.

and as well as the ammunition, artillery and mortar rounds to go with small arms, 20 million rounds in total,20 million roun. this will include drones which demonstrates our commitment to sending our most cutting edge systems to ukraine for its defense. we are not doing this alone. our allies and partners have stepped up to by significant shipments of security systems and will help facilitate these deliveries as well. host: comments from pope francis this morning, reported by politico with pope slams war as sacrilege. pope francis has denounced russia's repugnant war against ukraine as cruel and sacrilegious inhumanity. francis on sunday told thousands of people in st. peter's square that every day brings more

atrocities in what is a senseless massacre. there is no justification for this, francis said in an apparent reference to russia, which sought to justify its invasion as vital for its defense. francis stopped short of naming russia as the aggressor. he also called on all actors in the international community to work toward ending the war. our net -- arnet is next up in pleasant grove, alabama. caller: good morning c-span, viewers, and to the host. host: good morning. caller: i want to say thank you for the service you are doing for the american people. the shows you air, especially congressional hearings, are something i can't find on my tv shows locally and i presume most americans can't, either.

i thank god for c-span. my question is what we are looking at is, again, a year of another march of dictators in another century. as they say, history can be repeated if you don't know it. why don't most of us go back to the year 1936? has the linsky -- has zelinski become the salafi of our time? no one spoke about it. the american people suffered losses. they killed a lot of american sailors. isn't that an era we should look at? are we not looking at another set of dictators, like mussolini

who was supposed to be and hitler's, who was? are we not looking at another two front war, we will have to fight the chinese who are communists and the russians, who are communists. host: -- thanks, arnet. steve. caller: i am against the war because people die more. the u.s. is not ready for war. i hate to say it. we are a little weak. cnn and fox news are running the nation, not our commander in chief, whoever it might be, republican, democrat or independent. i think it is time the u.s. and our allies wake up and toughen up and start doing things more sensible than playing politics. host: to liz in marlton, new jersey, next. good morning. caller: good morning.

i generally support what the president has done thus far. i do think that we have to -- nato allies have to come up with a better way of protecting countries from air attacks. so, i think we are rightly focused on the threat of nuclear war and a third world war. the problem we are having is we have to get in our minds what happens as ukraine totally goes to russia. what happens if there president, who seems to be a motivational leader, if he gets deposed, where does that leave western europe and the united states of america? with that as a possibility, we

have to be a big boulder. because, i don't think turning ukraine into the rubble that was allowed in syria is an option. that's basically my plan. we do as little as necessary but as much as necessary to make sure that putin has to come to a negotiating table at some point. host: all right, liz. john cornyn, the republican senator from texas said on the floor of the senate this week that the u.s., the biden administration is not doing enough in terms of military support. [video clip] >> ukrainian troops need more arms and aircraft. as president zelenskyy put it, the destiny of ukraine is being decided now, as we speak.

i believe we have a moral obligation, not necessarily a treaty obligation, since ukraine is not part of nato, but we have a moral obligation as the leader of the free world, i am talking about the united states as a whole, to support ukraine and help them defend their sovereignty, and their people. for example, poland, a member of nato, offered to transfer an entire fleet of mid-29 fighters to the united states for delivery to ukraine. ukrainian forces already know how to fly those russian aircraft's and president zelinski assured us they are desperately needed. but, the biden administration rejected the offer out of fear that it might provoke mr. putin. or, in the terms of -- war might escalate the conflict. winston churchill and other great wartime leaders aptly said

an abuser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. this cannot be the policy of the united states. we cannot appease vladimir putin . and we can't afford to be timid in the face of this greatest threat to world peace since world war ii. host: many of you probably heard this story late friday or early saturday morning on this program. the death of don young, the longest serving member of congress, the dean of the house as he is called. alaskan representative don young dies at the age of 88. the seemingly indestructible politician writes the anchorage daily news. he was the sole congressman for more than three fourths of the state's existence. his wife, anne, was by his side. president biden tweeted this. don young always stayed true to

who he was and the people of alaska. his legacy will continue. the america he loved. jill and i sent prayers to his wife and daughters and the younger family and the people of alaska. flags at the u.s. capitol, flying at half staff in honor of the late don young. we will go to kentucky. next up, darrell on the line. go ahead. caller: this is darrell in kentucky. i would like to give president biden some advice that my dad gave me. it is always better to fight a bear cub than a full-grown bear. thank you very much. host: keio falls, ohio. next up, mike, who is supporting the administration's efforts so far. go ahead. caller: it doesn't matter who our president is, we have to support them. the reason for the war does not matter anymore. we know there is a war. we have enough theories.

we need smart people to get some solutions. putin wants to put the motherhood back together. he's not going to bomb it. he's not going to set up any bombs. china surely is not going to let this happen. why would they? our president is not the only one at fault in this. ok? nato, where all of this is going on, has a lot to say. you can't blame stuff on the president is what i think. host: some comments on social media. if you want to text us, the line is (202) 748-8003. george in janesville, wisconsin, says we need to push back on putin, harder. try to fight putin disinformation in russia. i think president biden is doing a great job handling the russia-ukraine situation says liz in north carolina. this one says the pope needs to

go to kyiv and stay there and support the ukrainian people. let putin understand if he bombs ukraine, he would kill the pope. that is anthony. let's hear from stephen next in chillicothe, ohio. good morning. i'm sorry, stephen. it would help if i pushed the button. go ahead with your comment. caller: yes. i am opposed to what has been going on and i would like to express to you why. when joe biden became president, it was a big deal that he went and signed all of those executive orders that literally destroyed our energy in the united states. by doing that, it strengthens russia, for sure. and weakens us. now, a year and four months later, this war starts.

joe biden had a very weak government. and this week government is advising countries to do this. this is not the only country that has been threatening. iran will pick up the pace. when you are weak and don't have good policies, we should have stopped this from the beginning by putting troops on the border, to let him know that what he is doing, not that they had to go in, but that threat, also, biden , just six weeks ago said if he goes in a little bit, that's ok. but if he doesn't, he invited him in. that was a clear [indiscernible] host: next up, julia calling from davis, california. go ahead. caller: hi.

i am supporting president biden's efforts because i think is insight into who putin is as a man is important. but i don't think we understand enough about the russian mindset and this whole disinformation problem that schwarzenegger tried to address this week and other people are trying to hack into the russian tv and the control putin has on the russian people through information is an old tactic that we should understand and be able to manage. when millions of people believe that it is a righteous war on putin's side, there are millions , hundreds of millions of people on the planet who are supporting putin and our news sources keep saying that putin is atrocious. there are people on this planet who do not believe that. and we aren't getting the full picture and northern are the russian people.

we need to focus on real news, how do we get real news out there that is covering a balanced view of what is happening and how do we make sure everybody has that? i think that is really the key to creating a free world without this kind of fighting, which is so destructive for our environment and our goals for the climate. having to rebuild whole cities is atrocious. we need to think about this, an area where we have an opportunity to do way better. host: this is a report from the new york post on the status of negotiations of a potential sentiment between ukraine and russia. turkey says russia and ukraine are close on critical issues after talks last week. the new york post story this morning says turkey on sunday said talks between ukraine and russia are nearing an agreement on critical issues

that could lead to a cease-fire. sergey lavrov and his ukrainian counterpart met in the turkish resort town, earlier this month. the talks did not lead to any results. the discussions last week offered a glimmer of hope. citing the turkish foreign minister's comments. the foreign minister said the talks last week with russia and ukraine which he attended -- we can say we are hopeful for a cease-fire if the sides do not step back from the current positions, not elaborating on the issues. in lansing, north carolina, amy. go ahead. caller: hi, i'm am he. how are you? host: i'm doing fine. thank you. caller: just calling to give my

unequivocal support for president biden. biden is handling this situation . i just want to say if it were not for this leadership, i don't believe that nato or the european union would be showing the unification they have. i see a tide turning where our allies are growing stronger by the day. host: i appreciate your input here on washington journal. more ahead in the program. next up, we will talk about war crimes. in particular, the potential of war crimes taking place in ukraine. the history of war crimes with an internal -- international law expert, anthony errand -- anthony arend. >> i'm pleased to nominate judge jackson for her extraordinary qualifications, deep experience

and rigorous traditional records of the court. >> i am truly humbled by the extraordinary honor of this nomination and i am especially grateful for the care that you have taken in charging your constitutional duty in service and democracy with all that is going on in the world today. >> president biden nominates ketanji brown jackson. if confirmed, judge jackson would be the first african-american woman to serve on the nation's highest court. follow this historic process. watch our live, uninterrupted coverage of the confirmation hearing, starting at 11:30 eastern on c-span, c-span.org or by downloading the free c-span app. now available for preorder in

the c-span shop, c-span's 2022 congressional directory. go there to order a copy of the congressional directory. this compact, spiral-bound book has contact information for every member of congress. also, contact information for state governors and the biden administration. preorder your copy today at c-span shop.org or scan the code with your smartphone. every c-span shop helps support c-span's nonprofit operation. >> washington journal continues. host: up next with us is anthony clark arend, who is a professor of government and foreign service. welcome to washington journal. guest: it is a pleasure to be with you. host: here with us to talk about war crimes, broadly, historically, but also how they could potentially apply to the

war going on between russia and ukraine. professor arend, tell us when the concept of war crimes first began. guest: it is a very good question. one thing i would want to note is the law against certain types of activities in war is ancient. it goes back at least during the medieval period, where the idea was you had to treat civilians and noncombatants in a particular way. we saw the first treaty on this in 1864, the geneva convention, which specifically delineated a whole host of things that were considered to be violations of the law. targeting unarmed civilians, targeting undefended towns and villages. torture, mistreatment and things like that. what is somewhat newer is the idea that individuals could be held criminally responsible for violating those rules. the first effort to address that came after the first world war.

believe it or not, the treaty of versailles called for the kaiser, the german kaiser to be brought for some kind of tribunal. the kaiser was in the netherlands and the netherlands refused to turn him over. there was no child for the kaiser. there were a few trials that took place in germany. but, they did not serve any useful purpose and there were no high-level individuals tried. the real, sustained effort occurred after the second world war. and we all know, we are all familiar with the nuremberg trials. we could see someone like martin borman sitting there in the docs in nuremberg and the guards around him. justice jackson argued the case on behalf of the united states. that was the first major trial that took place that solidified the idea that individuals could be held personally accountable for violating international law, relating to warfare. we know nuremberg.

there were also trials that took place in the far east and tried individuals in the japanese leadership who were found to be responsible for committing war crimes as well. that is our reference as to when war crimes became part of modern international law. host: you mentioned the geneva conventions of 1864. those were updated after world war ii. what were the significant changes they are? guest: yes. the first geneva convention from 1860 four was updated after world war i, in 1929. and then up again, in 1940 -- updated again in 1949. there are four geneva conventions. the international committee on the red cross says all -- our parties. they have universal acceptance. there is a geneva convention on the laws of land warfare.

there is a geneva convention on the sick and shipwrecked at sea. there is a geneva convention on prisoners of war and on civilians. so land, sea, prisoners of war and civilians. and these articulate the modern rules of warfare, sometimes called the laws of war. sometimes referred to as the law of armed conflict or, frequently as international, humanitarian law. it takes these concepts which developed historically, spell them out in greater detail. the third geneva convention, which deals with prisoners of war, gives very specific definitions of who would be a prisoner of war, how you have to treat a prisoner of war and how you can't abuse prisoners of war. how, if they have committed a violation, you have to try them and so on and so forth. very detailed rules. the other conventions give similar rules in their

respective areas. host: and that goes as recent as abu ghraib. the u.s. is accused of committing war crimes to those prisoners. guest: there were many allegations the united states violated the geneva conventions and other treaties dealing with the laws of war. from my perspective, there were clear violations. former president obama explicitly stated that the united states had tortured people, which would be a violation of the geneva convention, as well as the torture convention, as well as domestic law. there was definitely evidence of american violation of those agreements. host: you've touched on some of those. we will remind our viewers and listeners of some of the elements covered in the 1929

geneva convention. it includes willful killing and torture and inhumane treatment. willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health. extensive destruction of property, not justified by military necessity. willfully depriving a pow of rights, unlawfully deporting or transporting and the taking of hostages. it seems like there are elements in their to bring it to current day. especially with excessive destruction of property, not justified by military necessity. there are reports this morning that some of the residents of mariupol are being transported to russia. that seems like they would be war crimes. guest: i agree with that. i want to begin with this very important caveat. as with any criminal investigation, it is important

that the forensics are done properly and we get all of the evidence and we get all of the facts. right now, we are only seeing what is being reported by people on the ground in the media or individuals who are using their cameras to record things. before we can ultimately claim war crimes have been committed, we need to collect all that evidence as we would in any criminal investigation. that having been said, based on what i have seen and what has been reported, it seems to me that there are clear war crimes that are being committed. what do i mean? direct targeting of places like hospitals. direct targeting of places like schools. there was a report that a bread line was intentionally and directly targeted. things like that. targeting unarmed civilians who can't defend themselves, who are not trying to fight against the force, those sorts of things constitute war crimes and based

on what we have seen reported and my understanding, based on the forensics that is credible reporting, it seems clear to me that these are indications that war crimes are being committed in ukraine, by russian troops. host: let's open up the phone lines for professor anthony arend. the lines, for democrats are (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. as we wait for calls to come in, i want to play the comments of antony blinken, laying out some of his allegations of potential war crimes and i will get your response. [video clip] >> yesterday, russian forces bombed a theater where hundreds of people have been taking shelter in mariupol.

the word children have been written in russian so that you could note there were children inside. russian forces opened fire on 10 civilians who were waiting in line for bread. these incidents join a long list of attacks on civilians, not military locations, across ukraine. including public squares and a maternity hospital in mariupol. i doubt any of us who saw those images will ever forget them. we have seen russian use similar tactics before in aleppo. they stepped up their bombardment with the goal of breaking the will of the people. yesterday, president biden said that, in his opinion, war crimes have been committed in ukraine. personally, i agree. intentionally targeting

civilians is a war crime. after all of the destruction of the past few weeks, i found the -- i find it difficult to conclude the russians are doing otherwise. host: in terms of holding russia or individuals in russia accountable for potential war crimes, is the u.s. a part of the geneva convention and a signatory to the international criminal court of justice? guest: so, that is a good question. it raises the issue of how does one enforce violations of war crimes? there are several ways. i will get to your precise question. there are several ways that were crimes can be enforced. one of them is international tribunals. historically, there are two types of international tribunals. there are permanent tribunals, which is the international criminal court. i will refer to that in a second. there are tribunals which are established for particular issues and wars. the nuremberg trials were based

in an ad hoc set up after world war ii. the international set up ad hoc tribunals for yugoslavia and rwanda. international criminal tribunal for rwanda. they set up one for sierra leone. one possibility here is that a special ward could be set up, a special tribunal to try individuals connected to the russian invasion of ukraine. the difficulty there is, for such a tribunal to be legitimate and effective, at some point, russia would have to consent to its jurisdiction. while putin is in power, i think that is highly unlikely. however, in a post putin russia, there might be a possibility. i would note that yugoslavia did just that after milosevic was no longer the leader of serbia. serbia turned him over to the international criminal tribunal

in yugoslavia for trial. there is a possibility in a post putin russia that he or others might be tried in a special tribunal. the international criminal court was set up by the rome statute, which is a treaty. it has a permanent seat in the hague. the united states, as you mentioned, is not a party to the rome statute. the united states is not a party to the international criminal court. we have, however supported it before and provided evidence that can be used in the court. we have referred cases to the international criminal court. we have supported the court. you have my opinion. i think the u.s. should ratify their own, but that is out of the realm of discussion here. neither ukraine nor russia are

parties to the statute, however come in the past, ukraine has accepted the jurisdiction of the international criminal court. in this case, the chief prosecutor has begun investigating allegations of war crimes ukraine. i think it is probably likely that the international criminal court will indict certain individuals, perhaps vladimir putin, but until russia collaborate with the international criminal court, it is unlikely that individuals from russia will find their way to the hay once again. host: these investigations proceed just like any other criminal investigation, correct? guest: yes. there is a more elaborate

procedure, the panels that have to meet and make decisions, and ultimately there would be a trial. there is not a single judge that we would be familiar with, but it is a regular, established process that would have to make a decision based on evidence and indications that were crimes had actually occurred. i would argue that it has great legitimacy. host: let's get first to our collars. you are online with professor erin. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i have a russian about war crimes, about u.s. history were crimes. [indiscernible]

other were crimes in the past would be the massacre in vietnam and the dresden bombing during world war ii. my dad, before he by -- before he died said the people in dresden were given metals. the difference was world war ii and the vietnam war. guest: it is a really good question. historically, it is very true that the victors tend not to get punished for violations of the laws of war. the nuremberg trials were trying the germans. the trials in asia were trying the japanese. historically, there have been americans prosecuted under domestic law, under the code of justice.

various individuals were prosecuted under u.s. commercial law, court-martialed. it is true that typically in these conflicts, it is the losers who end up being prosecuted. one of the efforts from the international community, really following the genocide that took place in rwanda is trying to establish tribunals that would look at all parties and all sides of the conflict. for example, at one point, the great canadian justice, who was the chief prosecutor for the international tribunal fruit yugoslavia, in 1989, they began operations aimed at preventing yugoslavia from committing various actions in kosovo, preventing an ethnic cleansing.

the u.s. was under investigation for possible violations. she did not find that there were any violations that took place, but i note that because it is significant that she saw her role as looking at all parties in the case. in theory, that is what the criminal court would do. it is not established by the victors of a particular war. the notion is that it would look at all parties in a given conflict and be able to assess an objective way whether any other parties had violated the laws of war. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. i would like to hear explanations -- you are very thorough, but me being a normal

citizen, not understanding all the law, but i do not understand -- maybe you can help me with this. they talk about indictment and vladimir putin not being indicted. such cruelty is taking place. why can't we, with all these laws, why can't we just ask -- i'll give you an analogy. if i am bleeding, almost to death, they will give me medicine so i will not bleed to death. why can't we do something right now? he is committing more crimes, with my simple mind as a layperson, i think he is committing it, so why do we go through all these theoretical talks while people are dying?

host: professor? guest: that is a really good question and that is probably the question that many people are asking. what i think that we have seen, without much doubt in the ukraine case is a clear violation of international law by the russian forces moving into an independent, sovereign state. it is a clear violation of the charter that prohibits the use of force against political independence of any state. we see that and then we see horrific bombings, horrific actions against civilians that strike me as very much war crimes. why can't we do more? first of all, the u.s. working with nato and european union, as

well as other countries throughout the world have imposed a strict and unprecedented regime of sanctions that are actually kicking in and having an effect, not just on the russian people generally, but russian oligarchs who have a lot of power in the regime. we have done a lot more. javelins, stingers, various other items to the ukrainian people, in order to help them defend themselves. we do not know, but i assume that we are also providing some other forms of covert assistance. behind the question, why don't we do more? here, i think the u.s. and nato is making a very wise decision. as horrible as the invasion of

ukraine is, as a violation of international law, the concern is, if a no-fly zone were set up over ukraine -- if a no-fly zone were set up, what does that mean? american fighter planes would shoot down russian aircraft over ukraine. if that were to happen, nato and the u.s. would be at war with russia, and the calculation is, as bad as things are now, that will make things so much worse. in a sense, that is probably what vladimir putin would like. he would like to be directly engaging russia because that would give him a propaganda victory.

he would likely be able to rally some of his domestic support against nato and u.s. not to mention the many more people that would be killed as the war expands. i think it is a wide calculus. we moved in, in a gradual way. things got worse and worse and we did more and more. we responded proportionately and appropriately. there may be more levers to pool, but right now, if we engage russian troops, we are likely to make things so much worse, and the human suffering will be so much worse.

host: what about the ethics of warfare? guest: this is a very good question. the american military -- i cannot speak for the russian military, though i think they are made aware of some of these things, but the american military, from the first level invested person to the highest general is trained extensively in the laws of armed conflict. other military manuals layout these rules, sailors and marines are trained in this. they know what the laws of war are. they know if they violate the rules, they are violating military justice and can be court-martialed for that. they are given specific rules of engagement, meant to comply with

the laws of war. these are military attorneys embedded in units that are deployed that do advise embedded part of the american military tradition. this really goes back to abraham lincoln. abraham lincoln, during the american civil war called upon a legal scholar to put together a code. this was before the geneva convention, so it was based on pre-existing customary law. the union army ultimately adopted the code as it sought to regulate its conduct. this has been a very important

part of military training. host: paul, you are on. caller: i was hoping you could categorize how you would determine that this is a war crime. what is going on has nine do not hear about it much in the mainstream yet, but it is nothing more than a giant concentration camp. i'm wondering, how they determined that war crimes have been committed in palestine? guest: one of the advantages a is that technology.

it would depend on where we are prosecuting. something else i could have mentioned is that there is domestic reinforcement of work crimes. spain and germany have begun investigations because under international law, anything has the right to try an individual for war crimes. it will be determined by where it will be tried for domestic courts. it would be the normal procedure that we would use in any criminal case. the evidence can be physical evidence. we might have documents in the nuremberg trial. they might be witnesses who could testify that they saw this happen. it could be intercepted

communications or something along those lines. they will be responsible for getting the witnesses in and presenting that to the court. the court will make a decision based on whether they think a war crime has been committed. the question was raised about palestine, and i do not want to get into that topic in any great detail, but over the years, there have been claims on all parties having committed war crimes. there have been a number of allegations presented here and there. i would note that we could mention another slew of countries in the world.

in yemen is where many have considered that work crimes are taking place. we mentioned afghanistan and iraq. syria is a place where allegations have come up. palestine is certainly one where allegations were made, but i do not want us to think that is the only case. sadly, allegations come up in virtually every conflict that exists. host: let's hear from the republican line. caller: good morning. i would like you to comment on why hasn't than -- why hasn't this been brought up while you are on the air? russia presented to the security council, live on c-span all the ways the u.s. had multiple bio

weapons inside ukraine, currently operating. at least some of them involved the coronavirus. host: professor come over you aware of that? guest: obviously, i do not have access to the intelligence on that, but the u.s. collaborates with various countries on scientific research. that is clear. however, i have absolute confidence that the u.s. is not in any way collaborating with ukraine on the production of dialogical weapons. i have absolute confidence that is not taking place. that would make no sense whatsoever, aside from the fact that the u.s. is party to the biological weapons convention of

1972, which prohibits that from a policy perspective. why would the u.s. have been doing that in connection with ukraine? biological weapons are fundamentally destructive, a type of weapon that causes suffering jan understanding and would serve no purpose militarily or otherwise. my sense is that russia was engaging in a propaganda activity and again, i have no insider knowledge, no knowledge of classified information, but i cannot believe that the u.s. is engaging in developing biological weapons in ukraine or elsewhere in the world. host: the ukrainian president this morning on a program on cnn

saying, i am ready for negotiations with vladimir putin . i was ready for the last two years and without negotiations, we cannot in this war. when morris and, there are negotiations, cease-fires and treaties. guest: issues are addressed, potentially. that may very well be on the table, but one of the concerns would be that russia may say, we agreed to xyz, if you agree not to have any war crime trials or investigations for war crimes. a couple things that make that difficult, zelenskyy cannot actually promise that. he could promise that ukraine will not investigate war crimes, but he cannot promise on behalf of the international criminal

court or on the behalf of other states that may conduct investigations. you could have that on the table. i would actually doubt that that will be on the table. i think russia's demands are pretty hard-core. i am really at a loss to see how zelenskyy will be able to agree to the demands that we have seen thus far. things like recognizing russia's sovereignty over crimea area and agreeing never to join nato and maintaining neutrality. i can see some kind of neutrality arrangement together, but i cannot see ukraine agreeing to the annexation of crimea rate -- crimea. there may be some other things

that could get russia to agree on an arrangement, but right now those are pretty hard-core. it is worse than saying, i will agree not to conduct a war crimes trial. the case is that those will not be on the table, at least not initially. host: this is mary elizabeth. welcome. caller: good morning. how is everyone? i am flummoxed. 70 people becoming refugees. i remember that our former president tried to shake down president zelenskyy on two occasions, to help him in his presidential campaign, rather than providing arms and armaments to zelenskyy and the

ukrainian people. he said he would have anti-ballistic missiles and even possibly -- to defend against russian aggression. we have such very short memories and this country, and i hope we will develop some kind of long-term memory. president biden and we should give him some credit. we pay that we can survive a few more years in peace and tranquility guest:. -- tranquility. guest: memory look at why vladimir putin may have been motivated to act now -- however, i do think that some of these

statements made by the former president and some of the actions that supported vladimir putin and took his word over the american intelligence community may have been one of the factors that empowered him to act now. he likely felt that the u.s. is a divided entity. maybe he saw that with exit, the eu was divided. i think vladimir putin felt like joe biden was weak. afghanistan was also on his mind. i feel, and pruden's mind, he felt that zones key would plea.

so, simply to the caller's point, some of the actions of the previous president were on vladimir putin's mind. host: aside from war crimes, could they be held accountable for the massive amounts of property damage that have taken place, with the disruption and disbursement of refugees? can they be held legally accountable? guest: a direct targeting of properties, but beyond that, it would not be unusual for russia, under a certain set of circumstances and arrangements, to be required to pay reparations to ukraine. that could be part of some ultimate settlement. as long as russia has the upper

hand, that will not be the case, but that would not be unusual in a conflict if you showed that they participated in activities with grave economic consequences and destruction. but i would note that it does not always happen. that is what the treaty of versailles said that germany was supposed to do, paying reparations for the war. if anything, the clauses in the treaty of versailles were one of the reasons why germany contributed to the rise of adolf hitler. in theory, a state could be held responsible for these actions and asked to pay for reparations may be to states like poland, romania and others, which had taken on refugees and have a financial responsibility.

those are not likely in the near term though. host: independent line. caller: thank you so much for taking my call. you do a great job of taking people from all points of view. you might have touched on this because i was talking with your screener, but if targeting civilians is a war crime, clearly, wouldn't our bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki -- probably our bombing of dresden -- be considered war crimes? but internet's -- but it is well documented that ukrainians bombed the center with cluster munitions and there is no military target besides the 20

killed, there were 30 injured and russia has made very clear that they are intending to have a war crimes tribunal after this, so people seem to think that the war started three weeks ago, but it has been going on for eight years and many people have been killed in the eastern provinces. this bombing of the center and the killing of civilians is exemplary of what has been going on for the past eight years. host: professor, do you want to answer? guest: i heard those reports as well. i heard reputation of those reports. if ukrainian nationals are committing more crimes, they need to be held accountable for those as well. on that particular case, i am

not certain of the accuracy of that report. i have heard enough information that has led me to question it. civilians are being targeted? yes, they should be held accountable, but i'm not sure it is accurate. the caller mentioned hiroshima and nagasaki, which were violations of the laws of war, the firebombing of dresden, as where many of the bombings of london that took place. host: let's hear one more call from ivan. republican line. caller: i was wondering if they will turn over people charged with war crimes charges and if we do, why did we not turn over

george bush and condoleezza rice for the war crimes charges that they were charged with in iraq? maybe what is good for the deuce might be good for the gander. let's take care of our people. host: who are the most prominent people who have been convicted and served time in war crime tribunals? guest: the people that we tend to think about -- going back to the nuremberg trials and asia, those would be the individuals that we saw that were prominent people that were convicted. many of them served. many of them were executed. many committed suicide, rather

than serving their sentences. those of the people who were convicted and received some consequence. the international criminal tribunal for yugoslavia and sierra leone -- these were critical convictions, but not the prominent people. probably the most prominent person was the president of yugoslavia and as yugoslavia fell apart, the president of serbia. he was on trial and he died before the trial was able to take place, so he would also be a prominent person, but he died before the trial concluded and was ultimately not convicted and did not serve a sentence. host: we enjoyed having you with us this morning.

thank you. that will do it for our program this morning. we will be back here tomorrow morning. we hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend. ♪ >> c-span has your unfiltered view of government. including cox. >> committed to providing access to affordable internet. bridging the digital divide one connected and engaged student at a time. >> cox