owned by people of color compared to similar homes in white communities. that happens in front of the house financial services committee. once, a conversation of the modern presidency with cedric and jen psaki of the biden administration. watch this week on c-span or on c-span outcome our free mobile video app, also head over to c-span.org for scheduling information or to screen video live or demand any time. he span, yourcoming up on washi, new york times on politics newsletter co-author leah askarinam on the 2020 two midterm elections. later, new york university stern

school of business and atlantic contributor jonathan haidt talks about his recent piece in the atlantic looking at the impact of social media. join the conversation with your phone calls, facebook comments, text messages, and tweets. washington journal is next. ♪ host: we caught a break from uncle sam this year, a weekend delay of the annual tax filing day. for most of us, that deadline has arrived. it is today. and the rhetoric of a year where some group does not pay their fair share, we thought we would ask you on this tax deadline morning, do you think you pay your fair share of taxes? good morning and welcome to washington journal for monday,

april 18, 2022. here are the lines to use to join the conversation. mountain and pacific, (202) 748-8001. that includes our listeners in hawaii time. we welcome your texts at (202) 748-8003. tell us your name and where your texting from. look for your comments on facebook and posts as well on twitter or instagram. we are interested in your experience this tax year. are you paying more or less, getting a bigger refund, no refund? did the 2017 tax law help your situation or make it worse? we are interested in how the tax year went for you. do you think you pay your fair share of taxes? we will get your calls momentarily and look at other news as well this morning. the deadline was supposed to be friday, but for holiday reasons

they pushed it to monday. those of you in maine and massachusetts, today's patriot day and we will get your deadline pushed until tomorrow, the 19th. here is with the irs posted friday about last-minute filers. they say the irs is or mining taxpayers that the deadline to file and pay taxes owed for most individual income returns is monday, april 18. the agency wants last-minute filers to know tax help is available to request an extension or make a payment. they say the irs encourages taxpayers to file electronically because tax software does the calculations, flags common errors, and reduces tax return errors. the fastest way to receive a refund is to file electronically and use direct deposit.

we will have figures for you this morning on the tax year and who owes what and who pays what. one of the first figures is from the tax policy center on last year's taxes. 57 percent paid no federal income tax due to covid relief funds, job losses, and stimulus. that is up from 44% before the pandemic. the number of non-payers is estimated to decline in 2022 and 38% by 2029. they say in 2021 19% paid neither payroll nor federal income tax. the number of people paying neither was 17% before the pandemic, so this includes last year, the pandemic euro 2021. what was the experience like and do you pay your fair share of taxes? (202) 748-8000 for the eastern

and central time zones. (202) 748-8001, mountain and pacific. the washington times looks at the tax day on their front page this morning. their headline, flood of tax returns adds to 20/20 backlog and delayed refund. they write that the internal revenue service is bracing for a flood of tax returns monday. the official deadline in a system beleaguered with delays. as of march, the irs had not processed more than 12 million returns from the 2020 tax year. the backlog will hamper the agency's ability to process this year's return. the agency is laboring with a personal shortage and growing document backlog. the irs is serving more people and entities in a global environment to than ever before while handling new and bigger responsibilities.

here is more from the testimony covered on the c-span networks. [video clip] >> with respect to our current filing season, we are off to a healthy start in terms of text processing and the operation of our systems. we have processed more than 89 million returns, issued more than 63 million refunds totaling more than $204 billion. there are two distinct filing seasons, taxpayers who choose to electronically file our receiving refunds within approximately 21 days. many individuals have received refunds within three or four days of submission of electronic files. with respect to taxpayers who cement paper returns come our processing is first in, first out. we are processing 2.7 million returns still received in calendar year 21, so taxpayers who during this filing season

file a paper return end up at the end of that stack. host: that is the irs commissioner. from the hill, harris and her husband report 1.6 5 million. it is tax deadline day. we are asking you if you pay your fair share of taxes. let's hear from alan in arizona. caller: good morning. thank you. longtime listener and i did file my taxes january 1. i got back my refund in march, so i was happy. in regards to taxes, to me it is not about taxes. it is about the economy and spending in congress, which is out of control and the crazy thing is, you hear when they

pass a $3 trillion appropriation bill or whatever. it takes them forever to spend the money. they cannot even release the money to where it is supposed to go but the thing i always get to come out when biden shut down the oil in the united states and let other countries be more competitive than us and now we turn around buying oil from our enemies, it is ridiculous and i have always been of the convention that if we drilled through the united states that we could reduce the national debt by giving the american people the ability to have gasoline at about $1.50 a gallon. host: we will go to jim in

texas. caller: we are headed toward a hard financial time where less individual people pay taxes and people who are paying taxes are paying more on top of a horrible economy where interest rates are all over the place. we have an inverted yield curve and we are headed into a recession within the next year. on top of that, you have the irs backlog and it seems for everyone across the spectrum times are about to get much tougher and we have to take a look at what we can do to mitigate it and try to do something different this november. host: tweets here, this one from steve who said i have paid more since the 2017 giveaway. i lost $13,000 in deductions, so

even with the lower rate i pay more. this one says the reality is the u.s. tax code is skewed because it treats income from labor more harshly than income from capital. hopefully this will be referenced were discussed by a guest, linking to a pro public article. the tweet says when you are self-employed and it is up to you to make your own social security deposits if you do not the burden becomes great come tax time. this one says republicans plan to raise taxes on low income workers to pay for their 2017 republican rich people tax cuts that are costing the usa and causing inflation and this says i think we pay our fair share. in 2021 come our effective tax rate was 14%. -- in 2021, our effective tax rate was 14%. do you think you pay your fair share of taxes? nick is in delray beach, florida. caller: first off, i get paid by

the hour. i make less than $45,000 a year. i own a two bedroom home in delray beach, florida. my truck is paid for outright. most of that can be attributed to the 2017 tax cut. at work, i got a raise to my hourly pay because of the tax cut. my company did not want to root -- didn't want to do it because it -- but they received bad press because other companies were giving away bonuses, so i got a raise. i got a one-time bonus. for the last five years, i have been bringing home more in each paycheck because of the 2017 donald trump tax cut. anybody who tells you differently is lying to you. that is number one. i had to deal with people at work who think they understand taxes and economy and things like that.

these people were mining at the end of the first year saying, i did not get as big of a refund as i usually do. maybe it is because you paid less for 52 weeks throughout the year. that might have been why you got less money back. host: peter is on the line from tennessee. your tax experience, tell us about it. >> i pay close to 50% income tax rate and that is a lot. i work very hard. i would not say i pay it willingly. i paid with a sense that that is the rule. i think close to 50% for anyone is too much and the problem is that the term fair share is what i have trouble with because it

is the most subjective term i can think of. you cannot really define it. you could ask 100 people and get 100 of and answers because it is an opinion and feeling. i have never heard -- i am a conservative and i have asked democrats and liberals are you talk about paying your fair share, they never have given me a percentage. what is that fair share i think it is arbitrary. i think the term should not be part of the discussion. they will not define it. the liberals who love taxes and more taxes are better, democrats never saw a tax they did not like. they will not define the term. if you're going to use that term, fair share, give us the number. they will not do that. host: that is why we are interested in people's

experience and what they are paying and what the refund is like and if they feel they have paid their fair share, but you are right. it has been used as a political term for many years. here's a headline from cnbc -- from nbc. what is the last day you can file for taxes in 2022? they write that while most americans have filed prior to tax day, generally april 15, that is not the deadline this year. the majority of americans will have to file on monday, april 18. the data change is due to emancipation day, a -- date changes due to emancipation day, a holiday celebrated on april 16. federal employees get the day off, including on -- in the internal revenue service.

we are asking you if you pay -- if you think you pay your fair share of taxes. let's hear from ralph in new york. go ahead. caller: good morning. i do not pay my fair share, at about the $40,000 income bracket, the 22% bracket. i could pay higher taxes to close the national debt. i have been a sight court nader for nine years now and i can tell you the american rescue plan is better than tax cuts and jobs act of 2017. what that law did is increase the child tax credit from 1000

to 2000. many of the taxpayers i see were not receiving the $2000. a lot of them lost credit because of their income. taxpayers that earned $150,000 and had a household under $400,000 were guaranteed to get the full thousand -- $2000. the american rescue plan is a better law for tax justice for lower income. it made the child tax credit a refundable credit and helped to fight poverty in addition to the earned income tax credit.

if you compare the 2019 income to 2021, if you earned more 2019 you have to increase the earned income tax credit. host: let me ask you about your original comment, that you felt you may not pay our fair share, that you think you could pay a little more in taxes. tell us more about that feeling. is that a recent feeling of yours or just this year? caller: it is not a recent feeling. because the national debt is so high, i could pay a little bit more. as a responsible taxpayer, i feel i could pay a little more income tax to help others and help lower the lash -- the

national debt. host: how our state taxes in new york? caller: state taxes are a marginal rate of 5.97, so they could raise that too if they wanted to because we have a budget deficit in new york state. host: thanks for weighing in. the question this morning, do you think you pay your fair share of taxes? for the eastern and central time zones (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific, (202) 748-8001. from ukraine, fate of mariupol hinges on battle at steel factory. the russian siege of the critical port city of mariupol has culminated in a last stand by a few thousand ukrainian troops in a steel plant.

russia had given ukrainian fighters in mariupol until sunday morning to lay down weapons or be eliminated. sunday, the forces at the plant ignored the deadline and ukrainian officials vowed they would not surrender. in response, the russian assault intensified and new attacks occurred near the plant. the ukrainian military said the showdown at the steel plant has become the last line of ukraine defense and preventing russia from securing a strategically important land bridge between its stronghold in crimea in eastern ukraine, which russia has been struggling to control. capturing mariupol would be a major victory for russia, which could cut off an important ukrainian port and bolster morale among russian troops. delaware senator chris coons on face the nation yesterday was asked about the u.s. supplying

weapons to ukraine. [video clip] >> in public remarks this week, you said the country needs to talk about when it might be willing to send troops to ukraine. you said if the answer is never we are inviting another level of escalation and brutality by putin. are you arguing that president biden was wrong when he said he would not send troops to ukraine? are you asking him to set a redline? >> those of us in congress who have a critical role in setting foreign policy and advising the president in terms of his decisions as commander-in-chief need to look clearly at the level of brutality. this is a moment of enormous challenge for all of us and i respect president biden's leadership and pulling together the west and imposing sanctions on russia and in bringing to this fight countries that have stayed on the sidelines before. i think president biden's

leadership has been steady and constructive, but this is a critical moment. if vladimir putin, who has shown us how brutal he can be, is allowed to just continue to massacre civilians, to commit war crimes throughout ukraine without nato, without the west coming to his aid, i worry what is going to happen next is going to happen next as we will see ukraine turn into syria. the american people cannot turn away from this tragedy in ukraine. the history of the 21st century turns on how fiercely we defend freedom and ukraine and putin will only stop when we stop him. host: back to your calls on this tax deadline day. do you pay your fair share of taxes? matt in philadelphia, next up. caller: i go by total tax burden. federal, state, local, property tax, sales tax. i just finished my returns last

month. our total tax burden was about 40% of our gross income. take jeff bezos. is he paying 40% of his total income? no way. host: isabel in jersey city. do you pay your fair share in taxes? caller: i fear -- i feel i pay more than my fair share. for the past five years, i have been taxed over $2500. the taxes have gone up in jersey city. taxes were sewage and so on and the tax rate is up. i do not understand why i have to pay that much. that is all i have to say. host: have you gotten advice on

how you might reduce it given your agent status? -- age and status? caller: i am a retiree and i also pay more during the year. host: you pay quarterly taxes? caller: i take out money from my bank account. host: and you still wind up paying taxes at the end of the year. caller: yes, i do appear in the past five years -- until that time, i have always paid taxes, that i was younger. but i'm trying to figure out why i have to be in this bracket and still pay at my age. host: what is the tax rate of the state taxes in new jersey? caller: i do not know, but i pay social security back also. i do not have to pay too much,

but i always get a small refund in new jersey. host: isabel in new jersey. this is the headline from axios. biden's 2023 budget focus is on deficit reduction. some of the tax elements include a 20% minim tax on households worth more than 100 million dollars. it would apply to income and unrealized gains and the value of liquid assets such as stocks. the white house estimate it would raise 360 billion dollars over 10 years. some political response from capitol hill to that, some tweets from members, this is a mississippi senator, who tweets potus's proposed tax hikes would give our country some of the highest rates in the world with inflation and economic uncertainty. the american people do not need another crushing tax plan. congressman tim ryan says,

passing a working class tax cut now is the quickest, most effective way to get money into people's pockets to whether these -- weather these rising costs. the budget includes trillions in new taxes, including a tax increase on american families and a $1.5 trillion tax hike for job creators. this is not how you manage economic recovery. a congresswoman says at least 55 of the largest corporations in america paid no federal corporate income tax on their profits. tax the rich. tax corporations. let's hear from wes in seattle. caller: i think that i pay enough in tax. i make about $40,000 a year and i got a bit of a refund this year. i think people should think about the fact that the irs is underfunded, so they are

operating on -- they are processing taxes on computer systems from the 1970's. if we want people to have their taxes processed quickly and efficiently and be able to make sure the government gets the full amount of money, they should have more modern systems to do that. i think most americans are not aware of how taxes work. in the united kingdom, the government calculates the tax for you and then they send you a letter that says if you leave the state of washington you make this much money and your tax rate should be this much. then people spotcheck them and agree or disagree and either pay or they have a different avenue to figure out how to resolve that if they disagree with how much they are being charged. host: can a citizen in the u.k. contest that amount? caller: exactly.

in this country, when we file our taxes, the government already knows how much money you make and how much money i make. why not just have them do it for us? people get freaked out and do not file their taxes until the last minute and this causes a backlog at the irs. if we had the irs set up the way they do in other countries, it would take the stress off the people. it would make the tax filing process faster because you would either accept or contest and people would not have to -- we would still have discussions about are you being taxed enough, but it would reduce stress on people. host: we read you some of the elements in the president's budget proposal for 2023. not surprisingly, some reaction

from joe manchin of west virginia. the headline here in the hills says this. joe manchin shoots down billionaire -- biden's new billionaire tax plan. the senator has proposed increasing the tap -- top tax rate on ordinary income and capital gains. senator kyrsten sinema of arizona proposed a 5% surtax on income over $10 million, 8% on income over $20 million. next is emma in baltimore. caller: i believe my husband and i pay our fair share. since trump's tax or whatever it is called come our taxes have gone up. we have not seen a benefit. the last two years, we have owed -- my husband and i claim to zero exemptions. i do not know how we could do

anymore. at the end of the year if you're still owing, i think we pay too much. this year, we owed. it is very disheartening. after the trump tax, i got a raise at work, but everything else went up. the rays put my husband and i in a new tax racket. we make over $200,000 a year. the credits that we would have gotten we no longer get that help us. one saving grace is we do get credits from the state. it offsets some of the cost but we still are out-of-pocket. when you are claiming pension, i do not know what else you can do . host: do you and your husband

wait until the tax deadline data file? -- deadline to file? caller: generally we do not. i do our taxes and did not get to our taxes until late. i refiled our taxes yesterday. i finish them about two weeks ago, but i like to look over them and make sure i do not miss anything. we filed on the 17th, first thing in the morning of the 17th. host: more of your calls coming up. do you think you pay your fair share in taxes? we are interested in your tax experience this year. (202) 748-8000 is dealing -- is the line to call in the eastern and central time zones. it is (202) 748-8001, mountain and pacific. send us a text if you like. (202) 748-8003.

get an update on the week ahead at the white house. we are joined now by a white house reporter for the hill. the president did a bunch of travel last week. any travel on his plans this week? if so, what is it about? guest: biden is ramping up his travel across the country. he is going to visit new hampshire tuesday. that will be focused on promoting the bipartisan and restructure law passed last year and later in the week he will go out west, traveling first to oregon and then to washington. the oregon trip will be focused on promoting the bipartisan infrastructure law. in seattle and washington, he will be talking about his climate agenda and elements of the build back better bill that

he still wants to get past congress. host: how much of these local trips are also part of the push for local candidates in the 2022 elections? guest: it is a large part of it. the white house has been clear that biden wants to get out on the road and do more talking to people and engaging with people. that has been hampered by the war in ukraine and the degree to which he has to be focused on that. a lot of it is meeting with and being with officials, especially those in tight reelection race is. in new hampshire, there is chris pappas. i am sure we will see some of these elected officials speaking with biden and trying to drum up support ahead of the midterms. host: you wrote about the administration's announcement

and the new nominee for the fed is michael barr. in the wake of the failed attempts to get sarah bloom raskin appointed to the fed, how is the administration approaching a strategy for moving michael barr through? guest: the key element is bipartisan support. i didn't want someone able to get votes across the aisle so they can -- biden wants someone able to get votes across the aisle so they can easily get through. the problem with raskin was the republicans objected to her and joe manchin came out against her. it is important for the white house to get these nominees through expediently. it has been months since he renominated jerome powell and the other nominees have been languishing for several weeks.

they want to get these nominees through as quickly as possible. host: can you talk about what the president will speak about on the road? what is the white house focusing on aside from nominees? what are the top priorities? guest: they are extremely focused on this bipartisan semi conductor legislation. there was a version that passed the senate and a version that passed the house and now they are coming together in a bipartisan compromise. there are issues they need to work through, but the white house wants the bill to get across the finish line. it is an example of the president trying to get bipartisan support on an element of his agenda and one of the white house focuses when it comes to addressing supply chain issues, the long-term supply chain issues that have to do with shortages of semi conductors, so this is an important part of the white house trying to address and

deliver for the public on part of their agenda. host: you can read her reporting at thehill.com. we appreciate the update. her opening question on this monday -- our opening question on this monday, tax deadline day , (202) 748-8000 is the line for those of you in the eastern and central time zones. (202) 748-8001, mountain and pacific. our opening question is to ask you do you think you pay your fair share of taxes? somebody mentioned this a moment ago. this is a tweet from senator warren. this is a tweet from senator warren last week saying, lower income americans are audited by the irs at five times the rate of everybody else. representative judy chu and i

are calling for the irs to take on wealthy tax sheets to end unfair targeting of low income families. let's go to new york. mark is on the line. caller: good morning. we just paid our taxes last week and they went up again, even though i am retired and my wife is the only one working. we take the maximum amount of her check and use it to get -- used to get a few thousand back every year and we would use that for vacation. since trump's tax scam that he passed, we cannot write off our high property taxes that we all pay in the northeast. our taxes have now gone way up, so i want to see a country that is fair with taxes. i am tired of billionaires not paying their fair share and

people on the lower part of middle-class and working-class people paying way more. it is unbelievable. there are 55 of the largest corporations paying zero taxes, yet i have to pay more and more as a senior. host: do you and your wife have to pay quarterly taxes in addition to the annual tax deadline? guest: our account -- caller: our accountant has advised us to pay quarterly taxes, which is a hardship. i want to see a country where the tax burden is fair and people at the top pay more than the people at the bottom. host: on to charles in georgia. caller: good morning. i have a question about the

taxes. ever since i have been working a full-time job after i went into the military in 1985, i have never received a return for my taxes because i always owe something. i do not understand where the lower side of the spectrum is taxed higher. host: typically, if you do not mind, tell us typically what you owe. what is the check that you write to the irs at the end of the year? caller: anywhere from $1000 to

$2000 and my average now is about 64,000 for the year. out of that, they are going to take about $20,000 of my income and at the end of the year when i do my taxes i am still going to owe something back for that. to me, you charge taxes by everything. if you do not take the taxes from the person working and earning their money, they are able to spend more and able to pay regular taxes. host: i asked a couple people about this. how about the state taxes in georgia? how much of a burden is that? caller: the state taxes is

usually $75 to $250 on me. i do not know about other people. on me, it is generally about 700 -- semi five dollars to $250. the money section in usa, refunds up with stimulus credits. they write that tax season is a bit less painful for many taxpayers this year thanks to larger than average refunds. tax refunds are averaging $3226 so far this tax season. that is 11.5% higher than last year. could it be a mistake? probably not. there are a few reasons irs refunds are bigger. a more generous tile -- child tax credit boosted refunds for some taxpayers. parents of children age six to

16 also received an increase in 2021 to $3000 per child. taxpayers in 2021 were also able to receive up to $3000 for 17-year-olds. do you think you pay your fair share? caller: absolutely, but i have a comment on the tax system, especially the trump tax system. people say we pay our fair share and in actuality under trump's tax system if you make $50,000 or less you have no taxes -- $15,000 or less you have no taxes. most of the low income americans have no tax liability. about 50% of americans do not pay taxes at all, so the caller

from washington that said about property taxes being deductible, you want to work with your representatives and lower your property taxes. overall, putting all the tax burden on corporations and having some people pay no taxes is unfair to the corporations and corporations do have write-offs because they employ people and create jobs, so there is offsetting. he dishes not as easy as that. my theory is -- what i would like to see is that tying the boat into income taxes and if you do not pay income taxes you do not get to vote. we have so many people who are not invested in america canceling out votes of people who are invested in america and i think that is causing problems

and we are putting the wrong people in office that are creating too much state property taxes like the guy from washington. the overall, unit few do not pay taxes and still filled out the tax form, you still get to vote. if your low income and have no tax liability, you pay the irs more and get to vote. the idea of having to -- shared responsibility in the boat, we have to show we are good citizens to vote and not just homeless people voting and not just illegal immigrants voting but somebody who is invested in america to be able to vote. i think that would help our election system and get more people to look at the tax system and make the tax system better. host: to omaha, nebraska up.

-- next up. caller: i am on disability, so i do not really pay taxes unless i make over a certain amount of money by doing extra work, side jobs or things. back in the day, because i'm kind of an older person, i was making $70,000 a year and i paid $20,000 or so. then i went back to school and became a lawyer and made $250,000 and had a million-dollar house, buying $80,000 cars and all this excess stuff. i was getting back refunds from the federal and state governments. host: this is with your salary as an attorney. caller: right.

when i made over two under thousand dollars are started getting refunds because of deductions. that last caller, of course we are all invested in this country because you cannot buy groceries, gas, water without paying taxes so i think that theory is underdeveloped. i thought it was weird. i could give up one of my $80,000 cars and even though i'm getting all these deductions. i just found that unfair, the tax system we have. these corporations are not only not paying taxes, they are getting millions of dollars on refunds, which is ridiculous. host: one of our viewers on twitter referred to this article from axios. you can bear with me as we go through it. i will go through a little.

the title is called america's highest earners and their taxes revealed. secret irs files reveal the top u.s. income earners and how much their tax rates vary more than their incomes. tech titans, hedge fund managers, and heirs dominate the list while taylor swift and lebron james did not make the top 400. this is the typical american income compared to what it took to get into the top 5%. how does that compare to people who most folks think of as rich who -- like movie stars and sports figures, even celebrity's like george clooney and lebron james did not crack the top 400 according to pro-public up's irs -- prop -- propublica's irs

data. others like warren buffett avoid income as their wealth rises. billionaires borrow against their wealth to avoid taxes, than their estates are able to skirt taxes after their deaths. one more for you from this. to make it into the top 400, each person on this list had to make an average of at least 110 million dollars per year. a typical american making $40,000 would have to work 2750 years to make with the lowest earning person in this group made in one. you can see mel gates -- bill gates, jeff bezos, and 395 others as well. . you can read their report.

in naples, florida, joe is on the line. go ahead. caller: good morning. i have paid quarterly estimates all my life and every april i end up sending the government $10,000 or $12,000 plus the state of michigan where i reside always get their couple thousand dollars. i think it is somewhat unfair that big money does not pay as much and i am a republican and i make ronald reagan look like a communist i am so conservative but the top end needs to pay a little more. also, the president is talking about forgiving student loans. if you are $100,000 in student loans and they forgive them, you will of the government $30,000

that april 15. if you cannot make it to hundred dollar a month payment on a student loan, how are you going to come up with $30,000 in one year? that is it. host: texas, bill on the line. caller: my wife passed away in 2018 and i needed somebody to help me do my taxes. i have not done my taxes since she died in 2018. could you get somebody to come over to help? host: bill, have you reached out to the irs or state tax officials for help on that? caller: no, but i got a skunk

and i cannot reach. i cannot talk to nobody. host: bill in texas, we hope you can get some help on your taxes this year. a column in the washington post, a bit of a historical look at things in washington and elsewhere. this is the headline on tax deadline day. americans' taxes used to be public until the rich revolted. one goal of the 924 tax publicity law was to show whether wealthy americans and large corporations were paying their fair share of taxes. newspapers published big stories on the first release of tax payments. johnny rockefeller junior was america's biggest taxpayer. equal to about $123 million now. next was henry ford, who paid

over $2.4 million or $41 million today. douglas fairbanks was among the highest paid movie stars. the post writes that the big reveal was short-lived. in 1926, calvin coolidge under pressure from rick's taxpayers got congress to end the public tax payments. president biden is proposing a billionaires minimum income tax of 20% on households with more than $100 million in income and unrealized gains. the proposal would make tax payments public but seeks to adjust a tax that results in america's wealthiest households paying a lower tax rate than working families, the white house said. critics contend the plan would hurt long-term investments. next is patrick in pittsburgh. tell us your situation with taxes.

caller: thank you for washington journal and c-span live. what i wanted to say was this conversation seems to come up every year around this time and i think what is ignored is our federal income tax liability. i have nothing against taxes so long as the government spends them correctly, which is another subject. one of your callers mentioned poor people do not pay taxes because their income does not warrant it and that is not true either because it is just the beginning of property tax and real estate tax and local taxes that are imposed and taxes at

the gas pump and every time you pay something. i have done calculations where when you add all the taxes together we are paying well over 50% of our income in taxes and i think it is being mismanaged by government at every level, so that is my opinion for today. host: thanks for that, patrick. this is from politico. fred upton is retiring from congress after this turn. the slim house majority could spell trouble for the gop. he was on meet the press yesterday. here's some of what he had to say. >> it is easier to win an election by being against something than for something. >> i think what kevin has done, eight or nine working groups have a bunch of different

subjects. it is a good thing. i was around. i was new to -- newt's deputy whip. that was a huge effort. it was going to be an agenda item for the next 100 days. i did not actually vote for all of them but i signed a contract that we ought to have a debate and some of them became law. >> cap kevin mccarthy rep sent you and marjorie taylor greene? -- represent you and marjorie taylor greene? >> if is under 230 -- >> he may not become speaker if it is under 230. >> it will be hard to govern for republicans. it is really not a part of a governing majority. >> we have had wild members of

congress. but lauren boebert and marjorie taylor greene and paul gosar. is that a different element that you have seen before? >> i do not think we have had as many folks in that sort of wing of the party elected as we have before but i think they are popular at home. >> what does that tell you about the republican party? >> troubled waters. that is why the margin -- right now pelosi has the boats, particularly with the proxy votes. she is not going to lose a vote and i do not think she really has in the last year and a half. we are not going to have proxy votes. kevin made that clear. none of us want that to happen. it was put in place because of the covid issue. we will be watching you in november. host: five more minutes with our

topic. do you think you pay your fair share of taxes? (202) 748-8000, eastern and central time zones. (202) 748-8001, mountain and pacific. a caller a moment to go mentioned student loans and here is reporting on that from forbes. is a student loan forgiveness taxable in 2022? it is complicated, writes forbes. last year, the biden administration used targeted loan forgiveness using executive action. according to the department of education, $15 billion in federal student loan debt has been canceled for borrowers, with more on the way. advocates for borrowers are pushing president biden to go further by enacting broad student loan forgiveness through executive action, although the administration has been so far noncommittal on that. as we enter the tax season, in

some cases student loan forgiveness may be taxable. in other cases, it may not. the issue depends on several factors. the author of that piece was our guest on wednesday's washington journal. larry from new jersey saying with his taxes between state and federal, just about a wash. we have always paid what we owed. joe and kentucky, i pay my fair share, one of the few in my county. most red states are welfare states. very few pay taxes, he says. i pay more than my fair share. if i was not paying donald trump or amazon's share, maybe my pockets or my neighbor's pockets would not be bearing so much of the burden, says philip in kansas. we will hear from robert next in carson city, nevada.

thanks for waiting, robert. caller: my thoughts would be towards deductions. i have always paid half or more of my net income for rent and the rent has gone through the roof. the cost of living index does not include rent. that is in the retail price index and it is so far beyond when i started working. i am 82 now and i think if there is a provision for something like the mortgage deduction right off for people who have real estate month that would help greatly for people who pay half or more of their income. i am currently paying two thirds of my pension for rent here where i live. that is just unlucky. if i lived in california, it would be almost all my pension, so i think a broad overview on

deductions for people with pensions and lower income should be considered, especially for renters, because they do amounts to a large number of the population. host: to brian in greensboro, north carolina. are you there? caller: yes, sir. i have a couple points to talk about. as far as -- i am a 65-year-old retiree. i was lucky enough to have good jobs during my career. i have pension and social security to live off of. unfortunately, a lot of people i know only have social security and i do not know how they do it with rent and all the utilities

and other things, especially with all these prices going up. it does not make sense to me, especially when you're paying -- for example, when you get your paycheck they take the taxes out for different things, whatever you're paying for. that we all pay for. then they turn around and taxi again on the money that you have left from your paycheck and gas and food and clothes, everything. it is just getting ridiculous. i heard you say $15,000 or less you do not have to pay taxes and $25,000 is very low.

but i do remember the last election. a lot of the candidates were talking about 10% across the board. the rich just seem to find ways to make money disappear. they used to put it into factories and more benefits for people and things got all that out, a lot of them. 401(k)s and pensions are almost unheard of anymore. you know, i just think there's a better way to equalize the cost. host: thanks forhost: your call. there's more ahead here on "washington journal." we will talk midterm politics, the races in the house and senate in 2022 and the changes that could be ahead. that is next.

a bit later on in the program, how have politics and society changed due to the influence of social media? your generation -- new york university professor jonathan hite will join us to talk about his recent article on that in "the atlantic." >> this week on c-span, congress is in recess. tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern, government officials and scholars testify on insider trading and stock trading reforms for congress before the house administration committee. on tuesday at 9:00 p.m. eastern, executives for home appraisal firms and equal housing organizations testify about the undervaluing of homes owned by people of color compared to similar homes in white communities. that happens in front of the house financial services committee. wednesday at seven a clock p.m.

eastern, a conversation on the modern presidency with cedric rissman -- with cedric richmond and jen psaki, kellyanne conway, and jay carney. watch this week on c-span or on c-span now, our free mobile video app. also had over to c-span.org for scheduling information, or stream video live or on-demand any time. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> now available, the c-span shop, c-span's 2022 congressional directory. go there to order a copy of the congressional directory. this compact spiral-bound book is your guide to the federal government with contact information for every member of congress, including bios and committee assignments. also, contact information for state governors and the biden cabinet. order your copy today at c-spanshop.org or scan the qr

code. every purchase helps support the nonprofit organization. >> "washington journal" continues. host: leah askarinam joins us come up with us this morning to focus on the midterm elections. welcome back to "washington journal." guest: thanks so much for having me. host: let's focus on the role of the president, the influence of the president's poll popularity. are we seeing evidence of the president's declining poll numbers having an effect on down ballot races so far for democrats? guest: historically, there is no getting around this. the president, especially in his first midterms, and's of having major effects on down ballot races. there will be candidate to attempt to distance themselves from the president.

they have this same kind of trend every year. we saw the same thing with trump, for example. some are more successful than others. i'm sure your viewers have heard from other folks on this show that in general, when the president and power, his party and his first midterm loses seats in the first midterm. the only exception has been in years with major historic events . after 9/11, for example, and after the great depression. initially we thought that maybe the pandemic would be one of those major historical events, that potentially -- the pandemic could alter history, but that is looking less and less likely as the president's up or for weightings -- present's approval ratings hover in the low 40's.

host: you touched on this in your newsletter, on an issue that is certainly prominent in the election, immigration. democrats face tough questions on border saga as it enters new chapters. not just with numbers of the republican, but members of it party -- of his own party. guest: absolutely, especially because of were some of the most vulnerable seats are coming your the border. that is going to make it a bigger issue. i will say a lot of the reason this is an issue is because republicans have turned up the volume on this. part of this is the upcoming expiration of title 42, which had turned most migrants away at

the border during the pandemic. it was a trump era policy that continued in the biden adminstration. that looks likely to reverse. republicans have latched onto that as a major example of the biden administration not having a plan to combat immigration, which is an issue republicans put at the top of their list, especially since the trump administration. host: let's look at the senate. a 50-50 senate right now. who has a better chance of winning the senate in 2022, and where are the challenges for both sides?

guest: basically, both parties need to number one protect their incumbents. that is the number one priority. we talk about these trends in the house with the president's party consistently losing seats in the first midterm, that does not apply to the senate. a lot of that is because not every seat in the senate is up every single election. it depends on how favorable the map is every year. for example, in 1982, in reagan's first midterms, he was facing similar economic issues with inflation and eventually into unemployment. even as his party lost seats in the house in 1982, they picked up a senate seat. so it is not impossible for democrats to have a similar

scenario here. it really depends on these handful of states. there are four democratic senators playing defense and some of the most competitive states in the country that biden won very narrowly, and there are three vulnerable republican seats, but two of those are actually open, meaning senators have retired, so those half-dozen sits are were to look -- seats are where to look. host: our guest is with "the new york times." we welcome your calls and comments on the midterm elections. the lines are (202) 748-8001 four republicans, (202) 748-8000 for democrats, and for independents and others, (202) 748-8002. let me ask you about the ohio

senate race. jd vance, the hillbilly elegy author, is one of the republican candidates there. jd vance endorsed by president trump this past week. was that a surprise? guest: it was not a surprise that he was going to endorse. he made it clear he was going to eventually endorse. i think the choice would have been surprising no matter who he chose because it was such a close race. it is a crowded primary, which means -- backing a bit, this is an open seat. there's been this primary between five different republicans that has probably been the most is in full

primaries of the senate map in 2022. in the end, it looks like trump endorsed jd vance and we are not going to see the other poor -- the other four candidate give up. so they will still explain why they are the most trumpy, even if they did not get the endorsement. it is really an example of a phenomenon we have been seeing across the country. in ohio i think it is a little bit more extreme. in one of their debates, the primary debates, it almost came to blows a few weeks ago. but it is i dynamic we are seeing over and over again, where trump makes an endorsement of a republican, that republican gets a bit of a boost, but because it is such a crowded primary and the eventual winner might win with less than 30% of the republican electorate, it is still anybody's game.

in the end it is probably going to be important for trump to see what his influences in the party. we know his endorsement gives a boost. we don't know how big that boost is. that is something we can look for in ohio. 1 in the democratic -- host: in the democratic side, one of the candidates running is congress meant tim ryan. is he the likely democratic candidate there in ohio? guest: yes, that one is not the most competitive democratic primary we are seeing this year. tim ryan has is a glitch theater lane for himself. any opposition he faces is pretty nominal at this point. he's already running a general election campaign, talking about jobs and being tough on china, trying to get away from this democratic brand that republicans have painted across the country before the general

election actually starts. what we have seen in previous races, and this is key to kitchen cinema'-- two kyrsten sinema's 2018 race, is while republicans are engaging in this interparty battle, the democrat is able to come out and create their own brand that is going to potential he be a little bit stronger because he's not facing quite as intense attacks this early on. he has money. he has the fundraising. he can get on television and start to establish his own brand before republicans start going after him in earnest. now, that might not matter. let me be clear about that. voters understand there is difference between personality when it comes to congressional

races. in governors races, they are more likely to give the other party to benefit of the doubt. but in senate races, voters very much know that they are not just voting for tim ryan or jd vance. they are also voting for majority leader mitch mcconnell or chuck schumer. host: we touched on the immigration issue. 200 days or something like that out from the midterm elections, but top of the list of topics has to be the economy, right? guest: absolutely, and that is probably why democrats are in many ways expecting it to be a really tough year. we heard an interview with political -- politico over the weekend where a biden poster expressed that this is going to be a really tough year for democrats, much of the reason being inflation. that is a little bit tricky because a lot of the other economic indicators are actually

pretty strong right now. unemployment, for example. but that is not what people are feeling and you go fill up your tank of gas. you notice that number being higher now than it was a year ago. also, it is an issue that republicans have always felt that they have an advantage on when it comes to the economy, and they get to use the arguments that democrats have been the earth possible with their spending which is a typical republican attack of democrats. now, joe biden is now pointing to the invasion of ukraine as a reason for these price hikes, so the question is, do voters end up giving biden the benefit of the doubt, believing that the reason why things are tough right now is because of putin, and putin is the one to blame? or are republicans going to be

successful in arguing that biden is the one to blame? host: your colleague trip gabriel had a piece, "the senate's most vulnerable democrats in four states face tough campaigns." the senator in georgia had a stunning come-from-behind win in the 2020 election that threw the balance of power. how likely is there another potential stunning upset with the candidacy of herschel walker, the former football star in georgia? guest: herschel walker is most likely going to be the nominee. there's not a real competitive primary for republicans in georgia at this point. so whatever happens, it is not

really an upset either way. if herschel walker wins, georgia was one of the closest, if not the closest state in the 2020 election. it is the first midterm after the first term of the sitting president. so the trend in and of itself could push republicans to a victory. f raphael warnock wins, he has proven himself to be a pretty strong candidate before. he will also have stacey abrams running statewide at the same time, probably working together on get out the vote efforts, which are huge in georgia in terms of getting turn out. that is going to be a major issue for democrats. so either way, it should be kind of an expected result, if that makes sense. host: let's get to calls for our guest, leah askarinam. we will be to liam in south carolina. good morning. caller: yes. it has been a while since i called.

i'm going to cover three topics. let me talk about the ukraine and russia situation. i know it is not that different from iraq and afghanistan. i don't understand why we need a bogeyman. we've got to feed that military-industrial complex. let's talk about immigration. illegal immigration is killing america, and they used to go to mexico before their court date. now they get to stay in the united states before you go to court. the joe biden administration is giving illegals free smartphones where they can be tracked. how ludicrous is that? and the national debt is over $30 trillion while we are spending money on -- for

america. china is sitting back laughing. we spent billions in iraq, billions in afghanistan, now we are spending billions in ukraine. what about nato? i hear all about our allies, but united states provides the weapons and the military aid. in the midterm elections, the democrats are going to get wiped out. inflation is so high. the pay ain't keeping up with the wages. americans are struggling. host: ok, several things there. your response. guest: i think you hit on a few different points there that i think are going to be important in the midterms. i think the most interesting one is the issue of nationalism which you kind of hinted at. when we are talking about ukraine and russia and where america is putting its resources , it is pretty typical for this

to become a conversation about whether the united states should be getting involved in other countries affairs, fixing other problems, or focusing on our own. obviously you can't really separate the two in a lot of ways because what happens internationally affects us nationally. but we saw trump in 2020 run on a platform that was literally called america first. it was a platform that went against the traditional republican foreign policy platform. it was far less hawkish then your typical republican. it was about isolationism and focusing on the country. we saw some democrats and grace -- democrats embrace that exact same messaging in the 2020 election, thinking the more progressive movement. bernie sanders kind of the spokesman for that kind of thing. but what we have seen in the last few months is oath parties

kind of abandoning that and coming together in a pretty moderate, almost bipartisan acceptance of allies and nato and the importance of having those relationships internationally so that when there is a crisis like what we are seeing in ukraine, that the country has backup. now we are seeing the kind of getting of this conflict that saw a lot of support from americans coming together in support of ukraine, and i think the question now is how long does that last. at what point does this become for voters, windows this become we need to focus more on americans? if you are actually listening to the more republican talking points or a lot of the sunday shows, republicans argue that we

are not doing enough for ukraine, that we should be putting in more effort, more resources. so it is this really interesting balancing act right now. we are seeing republicans try to figure out what their foreign policy position is in a post-trump world. we have also seen trump backed off from some of his compliments of putin. so i am interested to see what republican foreign policy looks like in the next two and four years or get i don't think we are going to get those answers during the campaign because republicans, as the minority party, as minority parties pretty much always do, can't argue against the status quo without -- can argue against the status quo without having a real concrete solution. so if and when we see republicans with power in congress in the next few years, i think this whole conversation

is going to have a huge effect on the way we see foreign policy. host: our guest is the former editor of the national journal hotline. she's now co-author of the on politics newsletter with "the new york times." we welcome your calls and comment. for republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents and others, (202) 748-8002. carol is calling from new york. good morning. norwich, new york. you are on the air. caller: hello there. go ahead. thanks very much. i live in the 22nd district. i'm going to move to the 19th district with new candidates.

as far as how you would rate the race between anthony del gato and feld aro, i know it looks like a very interesting race, so i wonder if you would give some comments about that, as well as my new candidates in the upcoming election. thank you very much. guest: thank you for that question. antonio delgado is just an interesting candidate. i have found him to be an interesting candidate since he was for it elected in 2018. the lines of this new district, i need to make sure i am having this correct with the new lines compared to the old ones. my understanding is that this is

not necessarily going to be the top of the most competitive districts in the country, but again, with the changes in the last few weeks and months, i think this is one that i would like to continue to look at. mark malan aro was the last nominee, and del gato defeated him pretty handily. so definitely will not i will be watching. unfortunately, it is not one that i have tons of details on in this early stage. host: he brings up a good point, that this year is the first year we will have the effects of the 2020 census. are those -- those effects are happening across the country, correct? guest: absolutely, and new york is one of the most important states in terms of the way redistricting went.

it is a place where democrats did have a major advantage, which was actually pretty rare. republicans did have the advantage in most states, just replies -- just because we publicans have more control over state legislatures across the country. so new york is one of those places where democrats were able to secure a handful of seats, preventing too much competition and ensuring that there is a bit of a floor for democrats. it was a moment where it looked like this cycle, republicans would have a much bigger advantage in redistricting because of this dynamic where they do have control over more governorships and state legislatures. new york is probably a key example of why that advantage did not play out as intensely as it could have. host: i use this headline from "the washington times" on the

senate race in pennsylvania. "oz's past positions on energy undercut candidacy." what is that race like in pennsylvania? guest: this is another one where we just saw trump make an endorsement. to start with the republican side, it is a crowded republican primary, but there has been a bit of a separation in that one that we have not seen in ohio. we have seen it sort of break off so that meant oz, probably better known to most as dr. oz, was in the top tier, along with david mccormick, who is running as a wealthy entrepreneur outsider. couple of weeks ago, donald trump endorsed dr. oz, and that does change the dynamic of the race. we are seeing that mccormick is

also being advised by trump supporters, definitely not distancing himself from trump. it is going to be quite the primary. we saw within days of mehmet oz receiving the endorsement showing footage of trump having his endorsement. it is going to be a much clearer kind of case of the power of a trump endorsement because the primary is really centered around these two men rather than a kind of equal footing among five people. on a democratic side, it is just as interesting. have a few different candidates. i think it seems like it is coming down to lieutenant governor john federman and congressman conor lamb. they are beginning to go after each other as well, and conor lamb is running as a congers men

who has won tough districts before. if you've heard of conor lamb before this senate race, it is probably because in the 2018 cycle, he won a special election before the democratic wave in 2018, and it was seen as a kind of forecast of this potential democratic wave because he won in a district that trump carried, so it wasn't upset. we have seen him when the cult districts. again, since then, he's running as the candidate who can win in pennsylvania, which biden won in 2020, but not by a huge margin. so trying to win over trump voters. federman has been a progressive figure in politics for a while. he is a mainstay in democratic politics, a former mayor. he's going to have a bit more

controversies to deal with in his past. he has been around longer. but he is a formidable fundraiser and definitely a top contender. host: one of the images he is trying to portray is that of a washington outsider, at least through his tv ads. here's a look at one of john federman's recent ads. [video clip] >> john federman. we built this and run -- he's a political machine statewide. reforms the office more than anyone in decades. turned down the state mansion and saved the taxpayers money. now he's taking on washington. prices keep rising, jobs keep leaving, and they just keep talking. the d.c. politicians just don't get it. federman, he will make them get. >> i'm john federman, and i approve this message. host: back to calls from our guests. we will go to william in new jersey. caller: thank you.

the biden-harris open border has created the deaths of over 150,000 americans from fentanyl poisoning, among other problems like diseases, and contrary to what your guest said, the republicans do have a plan. it is called finish the border that president trump built, and also use american oil and gas as president trump did to stop mr. biden high gas prices and extremely higher grocery prices due to the high cost of trucking from using the obviously pricier, more expensive gas. host: ok. leah, any thoughts? guest: i think when it comes to

border security, republicans have given a much more definitive view of what they see as a solution to the border than i think that is pretty widely accepted and summoned that we mentioned in our newsletter earlier this week. trump came out in 2016 with a very clear vision. whether that vision was universally like, that is a different question. it was obviously a very stringent, harsh outlook that he put out. but it was also very clear. at the time title 42 went into effect, trump had already tried many times to stop border crossings using similar measures. so yes, when it comes to the border, republicans have a clear answer, a clear answer for what they would like to see the solutions b.

when it comes to gas prices and the solution to issues with price increases, it is one of those issues where there is a clear few avenues that, kratz or whoever in power can take, and we are seeing biden take a handful of them. he was in iowa last week lifting regulations on a type of gasoline mixed with ethanol that would normally be restricted in the summer because of environmental reasons. we are seeing biden really torn between his initial platform and his initial views on how the ukraine crisis what effect the way that americans deal with foreign oil. as this conflict has continued to go on, those solutions are becoming -- it is becoming a much more complicated situation

and those solutions are not going to fully address this. i think the question is, looking at the bigger economy, how much can the president do in order to fix prices, and would you fix inflation. that is the question that we come to every single presidential election. how much influence does the president actually have on the economy? right now, democrats are trying to show that they are coming up with measures to ease the pain, and republicans are basically making the point that that is not enough. i think that point is going to resonate with voters in 2022 if they continue to feel the punch. host: let's go to ohio. george is on the line, republican caller. caller: thanks. good morning and happy patriot'' day. [indiscernible]

thanks to the guest. "the new york times" had biden laptop stories and of the dossier of president trump. 15 months later, look at the status of our nation. look at what is happening. it is ridiculous. [indiscernible] might be another pandemic. host: george, we talked about the senate race in ohio. who do you want as a senate candidate in your state, jd vance? is he the favorite there? caller: i might go with matt dolan on that, actually.

i don't know about vance. they are not giving much on the democrat side. host: appreciate the call. guest: that is so interesting that that kind of ended with matt dolan. but i think that is exactly the dynamic that he pinned for is perfectly, that in this primary in ohio, there are a whole bunch of different factors that dolan is not the toughest on trump. he's also not one of the top candidates. but as long as those candidates continue to get support, we are going to see a really divided electorate, and that is going to allow whoever ends up winning this nomination to potentially win with a pretty small share of the vote, a plurality

definitely, not a majority. what is really important about that is that the primary come of the ribald can primary in ohio is more likely than not to elect the next senator from ohio. of course, democrats could win. tim ryan is a strong candidate. but we are talking ohio. it has been a republican state for, especially with the incumbent administration. we did see a democrat win in 2018, but that was a really good year for democrats. this time, tim ryan is going to have a much tougher challenge ahead of him then sherrod brown did when he, as a democratic incumbent, won reelection. what we are going to see is a candidate who receives a plurality support in the primary ending up being

a key voice in the senate. to be tear, rob portman has been one of the more understated members of the senate. i think we are going to see a very different senate partially because of these crowded republican primaries that are going to likely elect members who did not get a huge amount of support from the republican electorate to begin with. it is just a dynamic to keep an eye out for. host: we will give our viewers and listeners a flavor of what that race is like in ohio. we talked about jd vance, one of the republican candidates, now endorsed by former president donald trump, and the likely democratic candidate in that state for senate's current representative tim ryan. here are ads from both of those candidates. [video clip] >> are you a racist? do you hate mexicans? the media calls us racist for wanting to build trump's wall. they censor us, but it doesn't change the truth.

joe biden's open border is killing ohioans, with more illegal drugs and democrat voters pouring into this country. this issue is personal. i nearly lost my mother to the poison coming across our border. no child should grow up an orphan. i'm jd vance, and i approve this message because whatever they call us, we will put america first. > who here is tired of getting hammered by inflation? we've got to get serious about lowering costs and actually helping people, and that means both parties need to stop wasting time on stupid fights. we've got to take on china, fix our supply chains by making things in america, and pass a real tax cut for workers to put more money into your pockets. we can't afford to be democrats and republicans right now. we have to be americans first. i'm tim ryan, and i approve this message. host: it was interesting to see tim ryan addressing inflation, prices, and the issues that are really hurting the biden administration currently in that

ad, which was basically part of one of his campaign speeches. guest: a lot of democrats are looking at inflation and thinking there is no way they can avoid it in their messaging. there are a couple of different approaches that democrats have used when they are trying to discuss the economy, and one we have seen especially from senators, from raphael warnock in georgia as well, is emphasizing that it is a tough time, not arguing with the idea that the economy is not what it needs to be for americans to feel comfortable, and trying to give solutions while also just explaining that they get it. in other democratic elections, what you are seeing in governors races is kind of show enough progress made in individual states. so maybe not mentioning inflation, but talking about

lowering a gas tax that helps people stretch their pocketbooks. so what you're seeing with tim ryan is acknowledging that angst, that frustration, and hoping that that allows him to win over trump voters. what you are seeing from jd vance was really a cultural ad, a more visceral issue that he is trying to get ads out to who represents you, not necessarily your interests. that is something that trump did well in 2016, and spite losing in 2020, i think he resonated with some voters in a way that is really unprecedented. so we are seeing some democrats try to emulate this kind of populist approach. tim ryan has been doing that for years now, but it is going to look very different from the way

a jd vance populist approach looks like. host: let's hear from russell in south carolina on the democrats line. caller: yes, good morning, america, and good morning to c-span. i just wanted to point out that it occurred to me that the republicans are talking about going on offense. i've actually heard republicans saying that they are going to attack the people on the january 6 committee. they are going to continue with this banning books. they're going to go on the attack. mcconnell actually said i will tell you our plan when we win, when someone asked him the other

day what the republicans plan about doing with the majority. what i don't understand, marjorie taylor greene said the other day that if you join the military, you are throwing away your life, and that is why my son won't be in the military. on top of all of the other crazy things that she said, she is apparently the voice of the republican party these days. host: the issue of january 6 and the aftermath. a campaign issue? guest: in some ways, yes. i think january 6 has become a real concern for people on the committee, especially on the house committee. if republicans win the house, it seems pretty clear that that committee will no longer be doing much work. what we are seeing is democrats having real conversations, not

just democrats, but rip guns like liz cheney and adam kinzinger, about what to do with their power now while they have it. and whether there's a political risk, i think, is one of the major questions of the midterms. voters in polling and focus groups, generally sixth is not their top concern. it seems very few voters are voting at this moment on the events of january 6. that said, i think that january 6 does inform a lot of the way that we are viewing the election , even if we are not voting on january 6. there are people voting on the idea of election integrity or the idea of a stolen election, which is obviously a false claim , but one that we are hearing across the country in republican primaries. so the question is whether democrats want to engage in that question. is that something that they think they can win a messaging

war on? i think that is not some that we have seen democrats really want to talk about on the campaign trail. they would much rather talk about health care, the economy. we might see that democrats talk more about abortion rights, depending on what happens with the supreme court decision on abortion this spring. when i thing about january 6 and its role in the election, i think less about whether voters are going to the voting booth and saying i am voting because this person said that january 6 was bad and this person said that it was not bad. what we are seeing instead is people kind of have internalized some of the messaging from january 6 it comes to voting, when it comes to frustration, and when it comes to frustration with trump. we have seen republicans come out against trump, mitch

mcconnell the top example, since the generally six attack and how that informs the way campaigns are enacted. host: liz askarinam is a reporter for "the new york times." thank you for being with us. still ahead on today's program, and just a little bit, new york university professor jonathan haidt will join us or talk about his latest piece in "the land on -- "the atlantic" on the impact of social media on society and politics. first, it is open forum and your chance to weigh in on any issue we have talked about this morning. the lines for republicans, (202) 748-8001. (202) 748-8000 four democrats. independents and others, (202) 748-8002. go ahead and dial, and we will be right back.

♪ >> the book is titled "the lords of easy money: how the federal reserve broke the american economy." the author's kryst of her leonard, current director of the watch gob -- christopher leonard, current director of the watchdog group. the publisher claims on the books left, "if you ask most people what forces led to today's income inequality and financial crisis, no one would say the federal reserve." author leonard explains why so few people understand the language or inner workings of how american money is managed by a seven-member board in washington, d.c. >> christopher leonard on this week's episode of "book notes+,"

available on the c-span now app or wherever you get your podcasts. >> c-span brings you an unfiltered view of government. our newsletter "word for word" recaps the day for you, from the halls of congress to daily press briefings from her marks from the president. scan the qr code to sign up for this email and stay up-to-date with what is happening in washington each day. subscribe today using the qr code revisit c-span.org/connect to subscribe any time. >> "washington journal" continues. host: it is open forum here on "washington journal." (202) 748-8001 the line for republicans. for democrats, (202) 748-8000. for independents and others, (202) 748-8002. it is your chance to weigh on

items in the news about politics, tax deadline day, whatever you want. we will get to your calls momentarily. an update from jake sherman of punch bowl news. he reports house republicans are considering writing term limits for chairs and ranking members into house rules if they take the majority. it would be a drastic shift in the power of the house. republicans have term limits. democrats don't. the house in today for a pro forma session this afternoon and back in session later this week. we go to heidi in brooklyn on the democrats line, first up. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i believe that the biggest news really is the money in politics. it keeps increasing, the amount that is used, the amount that is donated, and i think that it just nullifies any public issue.

i think the politicians just collect all of this money and run away with whatever they want to talk about, whatever they want to do, and it causes us not to have universal health care, which obviously, after the big pandemic, we need to change our health care system to get away from this awful insurance. we also need to have a clear foreign policy. we need to have the taxes paid by wealthy people and corporations. i just think that the money in politics basically masks all of that, and we will never get a fair account on the issues until we change that. host: thanks for the call. this is from "the washington post" on the war in ukraine. "missiles struck lviv after

ukrainian forces refused to surrender. in mariupol, hostages taken in the steel plant." from portland, maine, duggan on the democrats line. go ahead. you are on the air. go ahead. caller: i'm sorry. you were speaking of ohio. host: ok, it says maine on my screen. you are on the air. caller: i just want to be gone the fact that the last girl on your program downplaying the january 6. i don't think it is a matter of downplaying it. i don't think people will understand the impact it will have on their lives if it had

been successful. we would not have had a government. people to get social security and military benefits, any type of government thing that could possibly happen, it would not happen because we wouldn't have a government if they destroyed. so people need to realize it and know the impact it would have been on their lives. so take that under consideration , democrats, independents, and republicans. you might not have been getting a social security check or a government check of any sort if the republicans had been successful. host: a story here from "the new york times."

"official urges over 60 two get boosters. americans over 60 should get a second booster of the coronavirus vaccine, says the new white house code response coordinator on sunday, citing pretty compelling new data from israel indicating that a fourth shot significantly reduces infections and deaths among older people." he also talked about the idea of strict lockdowns now being experienced in china, and here is what he had to say. [video clip] >> we are seeing some troubling images in china where people seem increasingly frustrated by lockdowns. take a look at this. [screams] does the science >> support this kind of lockdown, dr. -- does the science support this kind of lockdown, doctor? >> no, we don't think the zero

covid strategy that china is pursuing is one that is likely to work. i thick it is very difficult at this point with a highly contagious variant to be able to curtail this through lockdowns alone. that is why our strategy which we have advocated is people should get vaccinated and boosted, should make treatment available. that is a more effective long-term strategy for living with this virus. >> do you understand covid fatigue in this country, people saying i am burned out, thought this was going to be a few months, i got my vaccine, and here we are going into your three of this? >> i totally understand. we all have it and we all wish this thing was over and we could put it behind us. certainly if you are vaccinated and boosted, it is going to make an enormous difference going forward. that is essential for people to do. at the end of the day, we are going to have to continue watching what the virus does, responding to it. i will remind all of us, we are in so much better shape than we were even a year ago, let alone

two years ago. so while that fatigue is there, and i totally feel it and appreciate it, we are making substantial progress. we just got to keep going. host: along that line, this is a front page piece in "the wall street journal." "u.s. penta mac strategy shifts to personal choice -- "u.s. pandemic strategy shifts to personal choice. health officials are leaving it up to people to assess if they need booster shots, whether to wear a mask, and how long to isolate after a positive test. businesses, schools, and other entities are scaling back specific guidelines as they prepare for return to normal. the question of when older adults should get a second vaccine booster is the latest example of the government shifting decisions from broad-based community outreach to personal choice. people 50 years and older can get the additional booster at least four months after their first, but health authorities are not pushing those eligible to get the shots."

you can read the article at wsj.com. it is open for them. we go to phoenix on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. [indiscernible] on the spanish station, i watch the news. we have seen that those 65 and older right now get free medicare, and will get paid -- and we don't get paid for our medicare 65 and older, but they get it for free. just last month, in the month of january, 147,000.

[indiscernible] i don't think our tax dollars -- educating their children for free and daycare. we sin the most money to mexico because we sin government money. so i just want to let you know that. i think that is unfair that they come here and get everything for free. they need to start payin medicare. host: to sean in fort lauderdale. caller: yes, my question is very easy.

all of your commenters using this word in a sentence for no reason. host: using this money what? caller: you are using this morning for no reason. this morning, this morning, this morning, always this morning and this morning. it is what i don't understand. host: ok. a couple of comments on social media. this is a tweet referring to a previous caller. "color is right. until americans demand publicly funded elections and restore the fair media act, we are stuck with the stench of rotten politicians beholden to the corporate lords that pay for their campaigns. " this one says, "cannabis safe banking now."

it is open forum here on "washington journal" this morning. reno, nevada. democrats line. go ahead, carolyn. you are on the air. caller: ok. i wasn't sure if i was or not. i heard a buzz yet anyway, talking on the border, i cannot get over, my heart just aches the way trump took those children away from the people and put them in the country all over, didn't take their names, who they belong to, nothing. they were put all over the country, taken away from their families. talk about cruelty. there were so many cruel things and corrupt things that that guy did.

i just can't even believe that anybody would even suggest. trump was the worst, terrible person we have ever had in the presidency. and corrupt, and don't talk about biden. what about the saudi arabians buying out his daughter and her husband's place at 666? it is ridiculous come of the things that these people come up with. host: this is a story from politico about the refugee crisis because of the war in ukraine. "ukraine refugee trauma causes crisis on top of crisis. refugees have streamed into neighboring countries that lacked capacity to offer support." next, james on the republican line. good morning.

caller: yes, i am just watching this morning for quite some time , which party is held to a higher standard? you can do so much and one party or the other for whatever reason , it doesn't matter if they are right or wrong. they still get that support. if you are not really towing the barge as you might say for what your beliefs are supposed to be, why are we continuing to follow the people that are not doing it they are supposed to do? thank you. host: patrick in maryland, go

ahead. caller: thank you for accepting my call. what i would like to expose is the republicans are talking about what the democrats are doing wrong. i don't know what legislations the republicans are proposing. those bills of already passed, those are both democrats and republicans. president biden was talking about this bill and that bill, they are not on the floor in the senate. and i'm wondering why. i'm wondering why the american people are not demanding more responsibility from government, not about democrat versus republican it, but just getting done when it pertains to ukraine. the only thing president biden is trying to do is prevent war

and dying. that is essentially bottom-line. that's we are trying not to do. thank you so much for allowing me to say this. in terms of ghost guns, i'm not understanding the problem with registering parts so that at least when you are making guns, it's registered. i'm not understanding why it's going to take a 12-year-old who may make a gun and shoot someone, shoot your child. i've got to tell you, kids are taking stem classes in the sixth grade. they are more apt to understand the computer than most adults. it's only a matter of time before these kids can understand how to make a gun. the next thing you know, someone's kid is killed.

all of a sudden, this is brought up again. one last point, as it pertains to the supreme court justice, what i noticed was looking at her record, she's the most experienced out of all the supreme court justices. she graduated from harvard twice. she went from public defender all the way to the second highest position in law. she has seen hundreds of cases of murder and in sask and that kind of thing. for our government to start -- for our judicial branch to start talking about two or three cases and all of a sudden she has this ideology that's different, she is soft on crime and this kind of thing, based on how much she

has seen it, to say one or two or three cases means this is how she is overall was insulting for a woman to ask a woman the definition of what a woman is. host: thank you for your call. usa today is covering ukraine in the front page. military aid supplies include missiles, antiaircraft systems, small arms. the leader in the house was critical of the administration's failure to our the ukrainians before the war. he was on fox news sunday and said this. >> ukraine is not asking for american men and women to fight. they are asking for the weapons to defend themselves. if we had taken those actions earlier, they probably never would have invaded.

>> you said the president acted too slowly and say that u.s. should send weapons. the president announced $800 million more military assistance. the united states has sent $2.6 billion. what more should be done? >> i had this discussion with the president long before, put never worried about the sanctions. he only looks it could he be deterred from entering ukraine. ukraine was wanting to defend themselves. had we moved weapons to ukraine earlier, it would've saved thousands of lives and the decision not to enter. we had president biden telus the sanctions take a long time to work. then the president denied ukraine and poland providing meigs to ukraine to protect

themselves on a flyover. all of that is a wrong action going forward. what we need to do is learn, provide the weapons and look to the future of what china is doing. taiwan has been waiting more than a year for weapons they've already purchased. let democracies defend themselves. host: back to more open forum, terry is on the line from ohio. caller: thank you for taking my call. this is my first time making this call. the question i have is why doesn't the vice president of our country visit the southern border. she is gone to poland and other countries. she refuses to go to the southern border. i would like to know if she could have account -- have

accountability so i can make a better choice. can i count on the vice president to do what they swore to do and be accountable to the american people? i thank you for taking my call. host: thanks for being a first time caller. you might find an answer here in an article published by politico. she has taken a swing through the delta in the bayou. it's not the usual track that of the vice president makes. did morning. caller: good morning. my comment is she doesn't understand history.

obama caged the kids. i don't think we have -- we can't protect our own borders. it's getting bad here. i have cousins and aunts and uncles that live down there. until you see what they see, wake up. host: let's hear from tina in georgia. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. this is my first time calling in. i just had a few comments to make. i find it so interesting that republicans are so focused on hunter biden and his laptop. they completely turn a blind eye to what happened on january 6.

right wing media doesn't want to cover it. they act like it was ok for something like that to happen. i'm a survivor of 9/11. when i see events like that that happened on january 6, it is quite upsetting that something like that happened. the second, and i wanted to make was i find it interesting that republicans were so upset about joe biden nominating a black woman to the supreme court. donald trump appointed three justices to the bench. not one of them did he consider a person of color. his nominees were nowhere near as qualified as this recent

nominee was. it makes me wonder about the state of america. it shows me how much work needs to be done. i just think republicans really need to focus more on these important issues instead of playing politics with things like january 6. they need to be honest about what happened. they need to rectify that and get justice. we can't allow that behavior to occur here. i just wanted to share those comments. host: i'm glad you got through. john in wisconsin on the independent line. john in wisconsin? caller: thanks for taking my call. can you hear me? host: go ahead and mute the volume on your television.

just go ahead with your comment. john? caller: ok. can you hear me now? host: go ahead with your comment. i'm sorry about that. you've got to mute the volume on your tv and listen to the phone. if you want to call back in, we have a couple of minutes left. caller: hello. i agree what's happening on the border is heartbreaking. they had a choice. to come to the country legally like we have done. we do a lot of work.

i would like to increase the visibility and let people know there is a way to enter the country legally and to get your immigration status the legal way. that's my comment. it is heartbreaking. they have a choice. host: it is tax day. this is from roll call. the bidens paid 24.6% tax. they write:

minutes of independent line it, go ahead. caller: i would like to congratulate the american people for being informed and looking past all the press. the press decided to be advocates instead of informing the public. when the poll says 33% think joe biden is doing a poor job of running the country, despite all the collins and the red herrings

, whether it's january 6 or who's going to be a supreme court justice, that's all been rendered meaningless. the people say the world is more dangerous since biden has taken office. we are in worse financial shape. gas is too much. all the real issues -- they are looking past all of this. all the people with crazy ideas about defund the police, all these issues -- i look at our country and i see that social media has really hurt us. the idea that we have more contact with each other has turned into -- you find something you don't like. the whole country is angry because of that. it is a sad situation. at least they see past the sales

jobs. host: thanks for the call. on the topic of social media, that's what we will focus on. our next guest has a new piece in the atlantic about the impact of social media on america in particular. he is a new york university professor and a contributor to the atlantic. we will hear from you in just a moment. >> first ladies in their own words, our series looking at the role of the first lady, their time in the white house and the issues important to them. >> the education is such an important issue. both for governor and president. that was very helpful to me. >> >> i'm very much the person

who believes you should say what you mean and mean what you say and take the consequences. >> we will feature first ladies lady bird johnson, betty ford, rosalynn carter, nancy reagan, hillary clinton, laura bush, melania trump. watch first ladies in their own words saturdays on american history tv. listen to the series as a podcast. if there are a lot of places to get political information. only at c-span do you get it straight from the source. no matter where you are from, c-span is america's network.

unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if it happens here or here or anywhere that matters, america is watching on c-span. powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: we are joined by the professor of ethical leadership at new york university's school of business. he is a contributor to the atlantic. his newest piece is about social media. that is what we are going to get to next. welcome to washington journal. >> the piece is an extensive piece that looks at social media. the headline is intriguing. it says why the past 10 years of american life have been uniquely stupid.

what prompted you to write the article? tell us what you found? guest: i'm a professor at new york university since 1995. i love the university. it just felt like something changed. something changed in the fabric of society in 2014 and weird stuff started happening on campus. students began protesting books and ideas and speakers. many protection from ideas. i wrote an article with my friend called the coddling of the american mind. this isn't just on campus. our whole society is going insane in certain ways. you can see it on the left and right. social media was behind all this.

i'm a social psychologist. by digging in and seeing what the social media do to suppress people, it gives some people voice. who loses voice? most people. when i realized that, it's empowering the far left, the far right, trolls who just love to hassle people, and russian intelligence agents. they have really benefited from twitter and facebook. when i worked that out, i wanted to explain the social psychology behind this. what happens when there is a lot of petty intimidation. when that happens, our institutions become stupid because nobody's willing to

challenge stupid statements. host: you refer to the tower of babel. why did you hone in on that we've all been wondering what the hell is going on for the last 5-7 years. what is happening to us. it's a short little story. the key line is when god sees humanity building this giant tower up to the heavens, god says let us go down and confound their language so that they may not be able to understand one another. i realized, that's what has happened to us. social media it was supposed to connect us. it's actually fragmented

everything. it shattered everything. people can speak to a small fragment almost as though we were looking in a mirror into a thousand shards of glass. we are yelling at each other and there is no coherent speech. host: you start on a point of optimism. you may or memory the arab spring. i was at a moment when people were optimistic about what social media could do. guest: if you go back to 1989, i was a child of the cold war. it seemed to me that nuclear war was in our future and all of these terrible things. suddenly, the berlin wall falls. the cold war ends. we get the internet. in the 90's, liberal democracy, that's the way to go. let china and north korea get rich and they will be liberal

democracies. the internet was a great source of optimism. we get to the arab spring in 2011, we thought facebook can take down a dictator. what autocracy could defeat the internet? 2011 was the year of peak optimism. many of us thought the future is so bright i need sunglasses. actually, it turns out that was a turning point and things got worse after that. scioscia media changed and became much more about -- less about to medication. host: the pieces in the atlantic. you can read it at atlantic.com. this is how we are going to set the lines apart for this conversation.

if you are under the age of 30, (202) 748-8000. if you're between 31-60, (202) 748-8001. for those of you over 60, independents (202) 748-8002. you can send a comment by social media. we welcome your text comments as well. that is (202) 748-8003. utah touched on this at the start of the conversation. you say this is what happened to many americans key institutions in the 2010s. they got stupider because social media fill in their members a fear of getting it darted, the shift was pronounced at universities, creative industries, political organizations at every level. it established new behavioral norms backed by policies

seemingly overnight. the enhanced morality social media met a single word uttered by a professor or journalist, even spoken with positive intent could lead to a social media firestorm triggering a dismissal or drawnout investigation. do you think the monitoring of these social media sites, facebook or twitter, makes that any better? guest: no. all of the reform of social media seems to be about content moderation. should we have more of it? should we have less of it because the right thinks the left is mostly progressive. i don't think that's relevant at all.

that's not where the action is. the problem we are talking about is anyone can attack anyone and it's typically a single word, some used this word. no amount of content moderation can stop that. i can get somebody. content moderation is not that important. it's all about the dynamic of the platform. people have always said it crazy conspiracy things. in america, we don't say you can't say that. what's chained is the crazy nasty stuff gets amplified to millions of people easily. you have people competing to get their stuff amplified. the problem is the dynamics. it wasn't always like this. in the early days, they were nice places mostly.

people would mostly get a good response. host: i had someone ask me, it was somebody i know very well, can i put this on social media? i immediately said no. this was something in the past, 10 years ago. do you mind if i broadcast this information? you do right about that. gradually, social media users have become more comfortable sharing intimate details of their lives with strangers and corporations. they put on a performances and manage their personal brand. activities that might impress others that don't deepen friendships. guest: this is especially important to understand what's happened to young people. there's an epidemic of

loneliness among young people. this is happening all over the world. young people are more lonely at school. the more people connect on social media, the lonelier they are. without social media, you call people on the phone or you communicate directly. when they all got on social media platforms, instagram is the worst because it's all about photographs, you are not communicating. it's not authentic communication like talking to a friend. you're putting stuff out there to impress people. everyone else has to spend hours of the day commenting. the more society has moved on to social media platforms, the less connected we feel, the lonelier we are and the more anxious and suicidal young people are. host: we've got a couple of

calls on the under 30 line. managing personal brand, when i think about managing a brand, i think of a corporation or somebody who is an athlete or a musician. you are talking about all of us. guest: i'm a social psychologist. i study how people are in society. even as a teenager, you care what others think about you. learning to manage your appearance and your reputation is a normal skill. kids have learned that for thousands of years. nothing really bad happens to you. when they all moved onto instagram, now any mistake can ruin your life and bring you shame. you could become internationally

famous for something you said. turning kids into brand managers full-time about what people think of them is a sick way to raise kids. kids are depressed. host: let's go to nelson in new york. you are on with jonathan haidt. host: -- caller: thank you c-span. i want to thank -- keep things quick. putin has called western cancel culture. do you think that applies? really, my main comment that i just want you to recap the categories you mention. i think those dynamics accentuates. that's the most important aspect to understanding your article. caller: goodbye.

guest: thank you briefly, the four categories of people who become super empowered by hyper viral social media are the far left and the far right, they are engaged in a culture wars all the time. the trolls. there are a certain number of men who get prestige, they feel good when they get to harass people and insult them. they usually use fake names. the fourth group is russian intelligence, who have tried to mess with our democracy. they don't have to send agents. they can make us fight over race and gender from st. petersburg. why would we want to empower these groups? this is what is messing us up. vladimir putin, he complains about american cancel culture.

it's a real problem. this is what's messing us up. any people on the right were drawn to vladimir putin and supporting him even when he was clearly an enemy of the u.s.. many people were drawn to him. our culture war is so intense that anyone who is against the far left is a friend of mine for some people. i'm relieved to see republicans and conservatives have generally come out against vladimir putin in support of ukraine. our culture war is so far gone that wasn't a foregone conclusion. host: we will hear from austin next, calling from north carolina. caller: hello. i'm a big fan of your work. i had a question about one of the prescriptions you give

toward the end of the article. in regards to reforming social media, people try and do that through different ways. whether it's billionaires taking over or regulations. each come with their own problems. i'm curious about what you think would be the best way to reform social media. guest: the first thing is, stop talking about content moderation. that's an impossible conversation to win. content moderation doesn't catch very much. it's only in english. don't even think we are talking about who gets to decide what goes online. think about the architecture of the platform. these platforms come in, they become hyper viral eyes in 2009.

that's what becomes possible for any idiot to post something inflammatory and false. the problem is the architecture. had we change the architecture? there are two problems. this is incredibly toxic for children and teenagers. the congress is not able to do much. in the u.k., there parliament passed an age-appropriate design code. you can't be pinging them at midnight to say someone mentioned you. there are ways to make the architecture less toxic for teenagers. california is voting tomorrow in their legislature whether to adopt those u.k. rules. on the kids front, there are great ideas and the possibility for reform. on the democracy side, it's harder. there are reforms that we -- would mean the extreme 1% on

each side don't get magnified 1000 times. we would be a lot better off if there was only 100 times more voice. host: let's go to connecticut. go ahead. caller: good morning. i really appreciate your time. i kind of think social media is a reflection of what you were looking for. i've had a positive experiences on social media, learning from people like yourself, medical information. that's how i choose to use it. with the division and the polarization in our political, we don't remember september 11. it happens to us all. i think we are forgetting all the good things we can use it

for. the bat is amplified. if we made a conscious effort, people like yourself can amplify and magnify the good news and the informative news at the adult level. it would trickle down to our children. we have a lot to do with what our children here, choose to listen to. i think we underestimate our influence. we are pawning off too much responsibility on social media. i would like your thoughts. thanks and have a great day. guest: those are very sensible objections. a lot of good stuff happens on social media. most of the interactions among friends are positive. there are many pluses and minuses. there is an important rule in psychology that bad is stronger

than good. in a marriage, if you say five nice things to your spouse and five bad things, you will be divorced pretty soon. the ratio is 5-1. say five nice things for every bad thing. that's the tipping point. even if there is a lot of good stuff, the bad stuff is so damaging. the country could fall apart around us. you point out about children. parents have lamented how hard it is to influence children. a lot of research shows children are influenced by the total environment. they are not looking to their parents for how to be. no child has the accent of their parents. they are totally programmed to soak up the norms around them. that was true before social media.

you bring in social media, it's as if there is a funnel hooked up to each kids eyeballs and another going into their ears. it is so full of more junk than was ever possible before social media. there is no room for anything else. when your kid is on instagram, composing photos, when your kid is spending 10 hours a day in this performance for other peers, there's no room for anything. i don't think parents have a 10th as much influence on their kids as they did 10 or 15 years ago. i don't think we -- we have some agency. small architectural features about the platforms are probably

100 times more powerful. host: instagram is now owned by facebook? have they responded to parental or other pressure to change the architecture and make it less addictive? guest: not really. i know they are concerned. i've spoken with the heads of instagram and mark zuckerberg. they have tried. they do research on it. they're very small reforms, like hiding the like count. they are aware of it. i think they would like to make reforms if they didn't cut market share. they are in a struggle. the kids are moving to tiktok.

it's funnier. facebook is desperate to retain them. they will not do basic things like require. when my kids entered sixth-grade, they said everyone is on instagram. they are all 11 years old. i've asked them, will you doing to police that? that's not true. you don't do anything. host: jonathan haidt is our guest. you can read the article at the atlantic. we welcome your calls and comments. (202) 748-8000 for those of you under the age of 30. (202) 748-8001 for those who between 31 and 60. those over 60, independents (202) 748-8002.

joe is up next. caller: can you hear me? hello. thank you so much for being here. thank you c-span. please keep up your work. my brother and i argue about how the internet has destroyed society in a lot of ways. young people have their faces in the phone all day long. they don't know what the world is about. it's all electronic devices. we keep selling new devices to our children. what about the violent video games a lot of children listen to? look what coronavirus has done to our society. we can't even get together and

have family gatherings. we don't enjoy nature. we don't enjoy the little things that are part of life. thank you for being there. i was trying to think of one other subject. if i would write a book, education is life itself. we keep learning things from the day we are born until the time we die. please keep up your work. guest: thank you so much. you are right that education should be throughout life. kids are focused on learning the things they need that are age-appropriate that will get them adult skills. children play, chasing games, running games, pretend games. that's the normal course of development that prepares them for conflict.

they must have conflicts and learn how to resolve them. what happened around 2012, they all got phones. they all got on social media. it's as though we said you once played it, you're going to have this phone. you're going to spend all of your life on it. you're not going to talk to people anymore. it's going to block out l other experiences. you can have rice to eat, nothing else. you get all kinds of diseases. we put kids on experience blockers and we are surprised they come out depressed and anxious. i agree with your concerns. it's not the internet per. the internet is amazing.

the internet brings knowledge and education to the world. it's not the phone necessarily. that's more complicated. the programs that run on the phone, it's the social media that uses a business model where the user is not the customer, the user is the product. facebook, twitter, instagram, tiktok, it's not the entire internet. it's a small number of platforms. that is what is sucking up our attention. that's what we need to come together to oppose. this is not a partisan issue. this is the loss of people born after 1996. their mental health is so bad. they have problems with basic coping. we've got to stop this. host: sean is calling from kansas city on the line from

31-60. good morning. caller: thank you for having me. i've got a question for you. i have gotten on social media. i have tried to talk to people. you can't get through to these people, no matter what you say. look up the things that you are listening to and hearing and reading, ask where they came from. see if you can find it on there. guest: are you saying this in a private chat? are you saying this in response to a comment? caller: two a response that other people can see. guest: that's the problem. most people are reasonable if you talk to them in private. if they are on a platform,

another word for stage, if you come to them and say i think you are wrong, there is no way they are going to do anything other than fight back. if you want to influence people, don't be on these platforms. talk to people privately. that's what is so horrible about these platforms. they have basically plopped -- blocked normal human interaction. there's no way you can have a conversation like that. host: our line for those of you under 30 is (202) 748-8000. good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for having me on. i was lucky enough to catch a talk of yours during my undergraduate education.

it was a great talk. my question is, do you think these corporations will implement reforms? how might we incentivize them to make these reforms? guest: i do have faith they will not lament reforms. the reforms that are needed are ones that would make them less viral, less addictive, it would cut the number of users. they are not going to do it on their own. we have to apply pressure from multiple sources. i understand the importance of free-market sector. i understand regulation is kind of stupid itself and often backfires. ideally, we would have

competition. a friend of mine showed me his 24-year-old son is on the platform be real, they are only allowed to put one photo a day. that is better than instagram. if anyone is listening, if we could get kids to move to be real and stop using instagram, we would be much better off. that would put pressure on instagram and facebook to reform. ideally, market pressure would solve this. that would have a huge impact and be beneficial. these networks have a norma's structural advantages. the value of the network grows with the size of the network. if everyone is on twitter and somebody develops a debtor version, it's hard to get everybody to go over. we need government regulation.

the united kingdom is way ahead of us. the congress is hopeless because of our culture war. states can do things. california is considering implementing this code. contact your state legislature and encourage them to take action. it's not a partisan issue. we all love our kids. the who aside rate -- suicide rate is up 100%. we have to apply pressure. host: you had an adamant conversation the problem is not with content moderation. i'm interested in your response to the news lately that elon musk is looking to buy twitter. the washington post with an op-ed, the world's richest man made an offer to purchase twitter. let's hope he doesn't succeed. a lot of arguments say this would be the end of content moderation on twitter. guest: i think there's some

truth to that. i'm a big fan of free speech. i'm a professor. i cofounded an academy which argues for viewpoint diversity at universities. free speech or viewpoint diversity works its magic only when you are within an institution that encourages listening. these platforms, the rules of twitter are thou shalt never talk about anything in context. you must take everything out of context so people can get angry about it. the platforms are really bad for free speech. they are just about yelling and screaming. i do think it's important to kick people off when they make threats. if elon musk were to take over,

i would imagine that would decline. child pornography, selling drugs and guns. a lot of things should not be on these platforms. i suppose if elon musk were to buy twitter, i don't know what he would do. there would probably be less of it than there is today. i don't think twitter promotes the benefits. i think it is undercutting the role democracy. we are in a global contest against autocracy. they are making it harder for democracy to be successful. china is being a better autocracy. if we care about liberal democracy and the american way, we've got to get our house in order. we have to do something about twitter. it's not that we need more content moderation necessarily. it's the architecture.

it's all about the architecture. host: let's hear from frank in bayside. caller: thanks for taking my call. i would just like to make a comment and get your response. i think a way to fix this is to actually charge per host or per like. for commercial people or people in the political frame of things, i think the charge should be double. in the old days, you had phone calls. you were unlimited in your home, when you worked for a business, they charged. you were incentivized to do less.

also, i think there should be a charge for emails. that's why you get so many spam emails and misleading emails that are totally out there. it's free. host: the idea of charging and making it cost to post. guest: if there was one regulated platform like the phone company used to be, the government could say we are going to change the way this one platform works. we don't live in such a country. we live in a free market society where people are free to start companies and use different business models. it's hard to say you can't use a business model. people would leave facebook if they started charging.

many people have talked about how companies are better toward their customers. right now, the customers are the advertisers. one hopes that people are trying to make platforms and give that value to us. it might the appropriate to charge something. if you hate what's going on on social media. i think you're right to focus on incentives. we get very different behavior. there is a limited role for the government to say you have to charge per post. i don't think competition would allow that. host: wasn't there security concerns about tiktok when it was first made available in the u.s.? guest: i don't know much about that. we know that lots of countries

are spying on other countries. the chinese are quite avid at it. we are is well. i don't know much about this. it seems to me that the chinese commonest party is using every tool to win the global battle against liberal democracy. i'm at least concerned about tiktok being a chinese owned company. i don't know what security they have in place. host: let's go to virginia. go ahead. caller: this is a really interesting conversation. being kind of on the older -- younger end of the millennial side, it has impacted people that i have in my circle. we grew up as cell phone started becoming popular. i think it's interesting to compare my specific experience with people who are younger than me.

guest: what your were you born? caller: 1991. it's really interesting to compare experiences. i generally think my interactions with social media are somewhat healthy. there are degrees i spend too much time looking for things like instagram. i have an acute sense that things like instagram, facebook are damaging. i think it creates a lot of the echo chambers where people can listen to only things that support what they believe and exacerbate the problems that already exist. it's interesting. i don't know what the solution is.

our -- are youth and other countries experiencing the same problems? is that kind of universal? are there any good successful solutions? guest: that's a great question. if you were born in 1991, you were 20 in 2011, that's the divide. that's when social life changed in america. kids mostly worn on social media every day. by 2012, they mostly work. you were through with adolescents. your brain was mostly develops. your generation did not suddenly get pressed and suicidal. if you have younger siblings, that sibling was 14 when all the kids moved onto social media all the time.

that seems to be what caused the divide between gen z and the millennials. if you got social media while you were through. it, that messed up your brain it, especially for girls. imagine if you had to post yourself online every day and wait for people to rate you or comment you or comment on your body. that gets intense around 2012. i think these platforms, all of us adults find we are addicted. it doesn't mess up our brain. going through puberty, there is no way to make that safe. that is unsafe. we've got to change the rules. that was a foolish age. kids are not adults and 13. we have to raise the age to 16

or 18. if anyone listening to me, if you have kids, do not let them on these platforms until at least high school. your mileage may vary. the kids will say they will be excluded and that may be painful. i'm not saying definitely get them off. talk with them. especially if you can get a group of parents and a group of kids to say this is so stupid. this is clearly messiness up. if you get a group to go off or talk to her principal, this is a social dilemma where everyone is trapped. if you can group to go off, everyone is better off. that would be the best solution. host: as a professor and seeing incoming freshmen, how have they changed in the 12 years based on their use of social media. guest: i teach at a business school. i've only taught mba students

who have all been millennials. what i hear from my fellow teachers who are teaching undergrads, all of a sudden beginning in the late 2010s, students would break down if you criticize them. they would take offense at a single word. most of them don't want to prosecute anyone. some of them are so fragile. we have to teach the most fragile student in the room. that means we can't be provocative. everyone is worse off. host: that is largely due to social media? guest: putting them on spirits blockers when they're are young. need to let kids out and play. go to let grow.org, it helps promote the idyllic kid should be outside playing without supervision. it wasn't until the 90's. host: our guest jonathan haidt

is the author of the peace in the atlantic, why the past 10 years have been uniquely stupid. thank you so much for the conversation. guest: thank you to all of the colors. host: that will do >> president biden and first lady jill biden will take part of the easter egg role. you can watch online or watch a

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