number of people signed to kennedy the day he died and the #did to me now. if i can't ever go to the bathroom, i won't go. i promise you, i will not go anywhere, just i will stay behind these black gates. >> president recordings. find on the c-span app or wherever you get your podcasts. host: it is may 1 and as college commencement season begins and postgraduate students graduate, many will begin to face the reality of repaying the student loans that funded their education. this as president biden and his administration weigh student debt relief. it is sunday, may 1, 2022.

we spend the first hour asking would you support canceling student loan debt? we divided t have student loan debt, the number is (202)-748-8000. if you have paid off that debt, (202)-748-8001. for all others, (202)-748-8002. anyone can send us a text at (202)-748-8003 and tell us your name and where your texting from. we will look for your posts on facebook and your comments @ c-spanwj. some of you may see in the white house correspondents leading up to this and we will show you the highlights from last night's dinner. the first in six years. there is news this morning of a major trip to ukraine by the highest ranking official so far to visit president volodymyr zelenskyy. nancy pelosi and a delegation of other members of congress

visiting with the prime minister this morning and now in poland. here is a look at -- [no audio] >> to command ukraine for their outstanding defense of democracy and we are here to say to you that we are with you until the fight is over. thank you for your leadership. >> thank you very much. first of all, thank you, it is a great honor to see your congress members and the madam speaker. this support is very important. we will win together. thank you. >> we are here until victory is won. host: that a speaker pelosi and other members of the house

meeting with the ukrainian president earlier today and traveling to poland later. we will update that story as we get more details but our opening question on "washington journal" is about student loan debt. would you support canceling student loan debt? it has been talked about by the president. there is expected action in the next week or two. the lines are these, if you have current student loan debt, use (202)-748-8000. if you have paid off that debt, the line is (202)-748-8001. and for all others, use (202)-748-8002. here is the publication the committee for responsible federal budget and their headline, how much student debt has already been canceled? they write in mid-march although some policymakers continue to propose canceling, some or all

has already been effectively canceled. overall, we estimate the equivalent of $5,500 per borrow will be canceled by the end of the pause may 1 and that has been extended since the article. at the cost of more than $100 billion extending this further will cost an additional $50 billion per year and policymakers should reject calls to do so. aside from targeted cancellation by the current and previous administrations nearly every borrower has benefited from interest cancellation during the current repayment moratorium. while higher than has eroded current balances, that benefit has been highly uneven and significantly more regressive than the already regressive $10,000 across-the-board cancellation proposed by then presidential candidate joe biden during the 2020 campaign. here is what the president said

most recently about the potential of further student loan debt cancellation. [video clip] >> i am considering dealing with some debt reduction. i am not considering $50,000 debt reduction, but in the process of taking a hard look at whether there will be additional debt forgiveness and i will have an answer in the next couple of weeks. host: let's get to your calls on thoughts on student loan debt and how much or if you have debt and if you paid it off. the first caller is from virginia. michael with student loan debt. tell us about it. caller: good morning. i have student loan debt but i worked real hard to pay it down. i still have some remaining but i think what people need to look at is the structure. i don't think it should be canceled out right. i think it would be unfair to people who did pay their student

loans. it would be unfair to them, like me, that i still have some remaining but people need to look at the structure. when you are paying your student loan debt, when you first start paying your loans back the balance starts to go up because of the interest rate and the way it is structured. if you are not paying down the principal on those loans, you are paying close to $60,000, 70,000 dollars, $80,000 more then you started with. if we start increasing paying off student loan debt, are the colleges going to expect the government to come in and cancel out everyone's debt? it seems likely are going down a

road where we are going to have cheaper education but we pay it back in our taxes. host: let me ask you about how you handled -- what did you do during the moratorium? did you continue to pay the balance or the interest or both? caller: oh yeah. well, i actually had to call in because when you make the payment on fed loan for example, let's say you are paying $1000 a month, if you pay $2000, they are going to put that toward a future payment. what it does is the next month your loan comes up your payment is going to be zero. they want to maximize on how much interest you pay. i had to call and make a principal payment to my loan and i had to do that every single month. host: they don't give you the

ability to check a box saying, i am making a principal payment or interest-only payment? caller: like the mortgage would be. every single month i had to call in and make the payment. and you have to wait on the phone for at least a good 30, 40 minutes to do that sometimes. that was the only way. if i did not do it that way, my loans were about $68,000 and at the end of the 10 years the term of my loans would be up i would have paid close to i think $13 0,000. host: wow. caller: and the interest rate was 7.6%, another was 5.4%. they broke it down into different loans i had taken out. host: i appreciate you being

first up and sharing your experience. we will hear from steve next in ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. i am very cognizant of what the prior caller had to say. i was not aware of the details he made. having said that, i had a debt of $10,000 30 years ago that i took up for a graduate loan. at the time i did not know how much my total expenses would be. after i got my loan i got a scholarship that paid for a good portion of it therefore i did not need the amount. however, i kept the loan because it was moving expenses as well, but i felt obligated to pay every penny back and i did so. however, with the situation currently a better situation would be to allow anyone who wanted a loan to get access to college requiring them to pay it back and make that money go into a fund others could take advantage of.

in addition, if you had loans generated toward folks in types of jobs we were looking for, say, teachers, may be that loan could be forgiven at a longer rate or lesser amount because there are certain professions -- doctors as well -- but we need people to go into those professions. get incentives to go to school, get that degree and pay off the -- maybe a doctor could pay it off a longer time at a higher rate. i made $13,000 a year when i started my teaching degree. however, i was maybe not going to make as much as a doctor. restructure the loan program, let anyone go to college that wants to, get that loan and make the adjustments as needed. host: thanks for that. merced, california, good morning to rebecca. your thoughts on canceling student loan debt. caller: good morning, everyone. what i think we should do is

regarding the people who were the frontline first responders during covid, the doctors, nurses and all medical staff, i believe all of their student loans should be wiped out. we kept thanking them every day for being on the front line. we need now to put the money where our mouth was. i believe they need to be forgiven for those particular people. similar to doctors without borders, i believe there is a program where people can go overseas and work in impoverished areas and have their student loans significantly decreased or wiped out. and my last comment is, we have to do something about the student loan debt because i believe it will be the next problem as far as our economy goes. remember back when the housing market created that economic

crash? i believe this student loan situation will be the tipping point that will create a second economic crash for us. that's it. that's all i need to say for today. goodbye, everyone. host: thank you for calling. melissa in kokomo, indiana who has student debt. caller: good morning. with the student loan debt i work in public service and the public service idea for relief of student loan debt is great if you can remain employed for 10 years. however, in regard to joe biden's comments -- i think he talked about in one article i read about an income gap or income cap, sorry, of $125,000 for single and $150,000 for married. i would wholeheartedly support that.

i work in financial aid. loans are crippling. today's economy is terrible and if anybody wants to complain about that, i would compare it to the g.i. bill. the 2013 exit from the military the people prior to that did not get g.i. bill. how is that fair when we had war veterans not able to use the benefits? host: what did you do during the moratorium that has been implemented, i guess, the beginning of covid but been extended? go ahead, i'm sorry. caller: because i work in public service my son was a gig workers. a lot of people are probably supporting other family members. i also take care of my mother who was on social security. she cannot go out and get a job, she is close to 80. i had to help my mom, i could not let her go out in the pandemic, and i had to help my son. a lot of us are in other

financial situations and i would love to know how much the other callers who are male are earning because there are income discrepancies women face. host: thank you for the call. here are some of the things you're talking about. the piece this morning in the washington post saying, biden team weighing income limits for student loan forgiveness. the white house is considering income caps for eligibility for student loan relief that would extend -- exclude, excuse me -- higher earning americans. the administration is considering various ways to forgive some student loan debt through executive action. in recent weeks, senior biden aides are limiting those who earn $125,000 as individuals or $150,000 for married couples

that would set that around 300,000 dollars for couples or $50,000 for individuals. no final decision has been made and the people familiar with the matter stressed the planning was fluid and subject to change. nonetheless, subject to criticism from other members of congress. this is virginia foxx of north carolina on the house floor about the potential for a student loan forgiveness. [video clip] >> april is financial literacy month. the perfect time to remind americans just how financially irresponsible democrats are. democrats of use the pocketbooks of hard-working americans to fund a multitrillion dollar spending spree and now have the audacity to deny responsibility for the inflation crisis. this includes extending the student loan repayment moratorium three times, costing taxpayers over $150 billion. democrats are financially irresponsible and dragging

student borrowers along with them. in january, the administration announced it will no longer require borrowers to sign an online acknowledgment about their total student debt each year before taking out additional loans. we should make it easier for student borrowers to understand the gravity of taking out tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, not hiding it from them. democrats' policies do not promote financial literacy, they promote financial illiteracy. host: some comments from other members of congress on the issue. on twitter here is, there has never been a better time to cancel student debt. by canceling student that we can stimulate economy, lift up disproportionately impacted communities and allow millions to make better decisions about building their futures. mitt romney saying, desperate polls call for desert measures.

democrats consider forgiving trillions in student loans, other suggestions forgiving auto loans, credit card debt, mortgages, and put a wealth tax on the super rich. what could possibly go wrong? senator chuck schumer saying, it is clear president biden knows he has the existing legal authority to act on student debt. he should cancel student debt today. senator grassley of iowa saying, president biden is talking about canceling student debt for all with current loans. iowans who did not go to college and are working hard to support their family should not have to pay off other people's debt. the government forgiving all other types of debt is a slippery slope. my question this morning, would you support canceling student loan debt? if you have student debt, that line is (202)-748-8000. if you have paid off that debt, (202)-748-8001. for all others, (202)-748-8002. here is kathleen in chicago. good morning. caller: good morning.

how are you doing? host: fine thank you. caller: i am listening to these republicans barking about joe biden canceling the student loans for the american people. i don't understand, how many billions of dollars in a matter of 60 something days have we sent over to ukraine to help those people fight their war? those people that would never step foot in this country if not for that war. we send them billions and billions and i heard nancy pelosi say, we are going to be with you until the end. these people have got these student loans and jobs and they are going to pay taxes when they start working. if we can help fund our country with billions and billions and billions the don't think twice about it, these are people in

this country. we should help people in this country. i do not understand mitt romney or virginia foxx, how dare they support not taxing millionaires and billionaires. forgive them all. forgive every student loan. this is our money. these people will put money back in this country. host: elizabeth up next with student debt in austin, texas. caller: yes, i would like to thank you for talking on this today but i have a question. were you talking about student loan debt, these are guaranteed by the federal government and from what i have heard it does not include any loans that were transferred to sallie mae and navient which do not fall under

government student loan debt. just a reminder, this does not include navient student debt. that was my question. host: i appreciate that. i do not know the answer to that but i appreciate you raising that. perhaps somebody else does who have similar types of loans. we will hear from carol in middletown, connecticut. caller: i would like to make a couple of points. one, president biden really does not have the power to forgive student loan debt. this action would concern billions of dollars and millions of people. this has to be voted on by the house of representatives. all bills that have to do with money start in the house of representatives, go to the senate, and then for the president's's signature. this executive action by the president, in my opinion, is unconstitutional.

one man does not have the power to do this. i believe that the current congress has given up a lot of their power to these executive actions. that is one point. second, i am retired. why should i pay for someone else's debt? these kids are young. they could work. i worked years ago. i am retired. but i worked jobs, summers, vacations, my parents gave me a little bit, but i had to take out loans also which i paid back when i started working. why should the american taxpayer have to foot the bill for these young kids? they should be going to college within their means. my parents cannot afford to send me to private college so i went to the university of connecticut where i got a fantastic education. that is all i have to say. i think this is socialism.

i don't want to pay for anybody else's debt and i am against this totally. host: the editorial from the wall street journal headlined the taxpayer can't of the century -- con of the century. they say federal student loans were established as part of the great society to help low income students, yet step-by-step, democrats have turned it student loans into an entitlement for academia and the affluent. rather than make college free on the front end, which might have failed to pass in congress, they want to waive the costs on the backend. also in connecticut, arnold has paid off student loan debt. go ahead. caller: hello. i paid off my student debts because i served in the military and i sacrificed. that is what people need to do. i don't understand why we would pay off people's student debt

when we could pay off car loans or home loans or credit card loans. what about all the people that did not go to college and were responsible? this is ridiculous by the democrats. why does the military get free? because they sacrifice. it is not fair for the military or anyone else to give it free for everyone when there are so many americans that never even went to college and have done things the right way. i find this disgusting by the democrats in another wealth handout. host: aaron in levittown, new york. caller: this is erin. ho are you. ? host: fine. it says right here you have student loan debt. caller: i have had student loan debt for the past -- i graduated in 2001. i went for a graduate degree.

i was watching my interest rate as very low. i am going to be paying that the next 30 years and that was my agreement and i understand that and i have no problem. however, i have a lot of friends that came out before me and within three or six months that interest rate went up 9%. there was no way for them to change that interest rate once they engage in that contract. it makes it very difficult coming along through life to pay that off over 30 years. i think that is wrong we have other offices like mortgages and other types of loans you have taken out to refinance and bring that rate down. i don't think that is right. sometimes there is no way -- you

run into trouble. that is why i have an issue. host: have you during the moratorium continued to pay that student loan? caller: absolutely. there were a few small periods where i needed to take a break in difference but i've always paid that. i do know other people that have taken out lower debts, $70,000 for instance, had a interest rate of 9% and now owes $300,000. i just really feel there are situations where people need that debt wiped clean. i also feel like people now don't understand the concept of

the student loan debt. maybe they should be capped at a lower interest rate. host: here is senator chuck schumer on the floor of the senate talking about student loan debt. [video clip] >> for over a year one of my top priorities as majority leader has been urging president biden to cancel $50,000 in student debt for each loan borrower. right now, as discussions continue within the administration about the future of student debt, i again call on the president to take action, which he can do on his own, and hit the financial reset button for millions and millions of americans. president biden has done the right thing by continuing the moratorium on student loan payments. his actions have saved millions from financial ruin during the covid crisis. but borrowers don't just need their debts paused, they need them erased. these extensions have been crucial but borrowers can indefinitely plan out their financial futures three months

at a time with the fear hanging over them payments will resume down the line. with the flip of a pen president biden could provide millions upon millions of student loan borrowers a new lease on life and he can do it without congressional action, because we know so many of our colleagues on the others of the aisle are opposed to it. he can do it without it is the right thing to do for our country -- do it without congressional action. it is the right thing to do for our country. especially for black, asian, latino. this has become an anchor down weighing americans down. and makes it harder for borrowers to start a family, by a home or car, and live with financial independence. and for borrowers of color the anxieties are magnified often tenfold. take this for example, the white median borrower will only of an average of 6% of their student

loans 20 years after starting college. meanwhile, the median black borrower willow a staggering -- will owe a staggering 95%. host: we are taking your phone calls on canceling still on debt. you can reach us on social media @c-spanwj and send us a text at (202)-748-8003. a tweet from mark says, before canceling student loan debt across the board i would suggest allowing student debt to be included in bankruptcies so it becomes a personal cost-benefit decision. derek says, i hope president biden does at least $40,000 of debt relief. russ texted from california, biden's punishing other tax borrowers. nice try. this tweet says, biden could make it where the status of student loans does not

count against credit score. henry and springhill, florida. caller: thank you for having me. i will give praise to lord jesus christ and try to be nice but it sounds like we have an entitlement handout. he is buying the vote of his constituents and it is like when we got into the financial crisis back with the housing crisis when these loan companies gave out too much money to people who could not afford it. it is the same way. if we are going to give up the student debt, it should go on your tax record and it should be counted as taxable income and you should put it on your job application. if you hire somebody that has given up their student debt and not paid it back, i would like to know that because that is irresponsible. i thank all the people who have paid it back and some of these

people with their debt, notsomee to help pay their rent and they were living basically on these federal programs to subsidize their education. i have not heard of anybody in a long time working their way through school. that is just my comment. it is very frustrating. i have a ged, hard-working, to jobs, sometimes three jobs working my days off and to start handing out money to these kids is just the entitlement generation once again. i have heard anybody talk about social security. one of the last time you saw social security being talked about by our congress or senate? it is a little frustrating for the hard-working individual. host: jane is next up on our others line. new jersey. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my

call. i have to tell you the reason i don't have student loan debt is because we were close in age and i was the third child in college at the same time in my family. my oldest brother, his tuition was $1500 a semester. he died at the age of 50 from cancer and had still not paid off his student debt. my second brother took a student loan and was not able to graduate on time which triggered the debt. when he was 70 years old, he retired and paid his final payment. i worked in fast food and it took me seven years to graduate college. what people don't realize about the situation is that president biden is the perfect person to cancel student debt because he

wrote the bankruptcy law and specifically carved out student debt as not being something you could apply bankruptcy four. i don't think it is a grudge canceling student debt, i think it is important to fix the system so that we don't have these situations in the future but it is necessary to cancel it so that these young people can buy houses and put that money into having a family and stimulating the economy. i did not get any student debt. i took scholarships for a year and after that, i paid my way. i do not begrudge that. to suggest that you cannot cancel these student debts because you paid your own ignores the fact that you would say something like you cannot have cancer treatments now because it did not exist when my brother had cancer. host: you mentioned it is

important that we fix the system now. if you had one idea or thought, what would be the best way to fix our current federal student loan programs? caller: i think one of the things that would help is to have public colleges and universities in each state that are tuition free. there would always be an option for those students to have an excellent education and that is why the federal government could support those colleges. another thing is if people go to the most elite, most expensive school, there has to be a plan within their family and with whatever is accessible in scholarships. there are an awful lot of universities that have very high tuition fees but when you go to schools, it is the student assistant who is teaching the class because everybody is on sabbatical. there really has to be a hard look at what is generating the

price of a college education today. also, we should take a look at the fact that at one time, public education was first through eighth grade. and now, it is pre-k through 16 grades. that is what it takes to get an occupation and to have a house and have a family in this country today. host: i appreciate your call this morning. let's hear from pam in florida who has paid off her student loans. caller: i went to college back in the 1980's. my student loan debt was about $13,000. 100, the payments were about $80 a month. i cannot hear you. host: we can hear you loud and clear. caller: ok. i paid it off i believe in less than 10 years. but now, i have children so i

took out loans for them, $80,000. i made more than the monthly payments and it seems like it is never going to get paid off. my payments now are $900 a month. i have been paying over $1000 a month. the ratio of my loan now to my loan back in the 1980's was six times but now, the payments are $900 a month compared to my $80 a month back in the 80's and 90's i was paying. the ratios are making monthly payments are much higher now. that $1000 a month is equivalent to my mortgage payment for the $280,000 loan. it just seems like it is never going to be paid off. host: assuming you continued to pay during the moratorium, did

you see the amount of interest you owed drop at all during that period of time? caller: i actually stopped because we are in the process of buying a house. i actually stopped making payments. i made a few payments, but it seems when i made the extra payments, they apply it to the interest and of the principal. host: an earlier caller was saying that as well. caller: to me, it seems like they made loans more available and there is a lot of worthless degrees out there. i think that just drove up the price of education and a lot of it is not quality education. host: about 25 minutes left of your calls and comments on student loan debt.

last night with the white house correspondents dinner. this is one of the headlines. "american democracy is not a reality show. biden roasts and reflects at the white house correspondents dinner. biden was the first president to speak, to address the annual washington gathering in six years. two years after the pandemic hiatus and four years without an appearance by trump. jokes about the opposing party and here is a flavor of what biden had to say last night." [video clip] + [applause] >> thank you for that introduction and a special thanks to the 42% of you who actually applauded. [laughter] >> i am really excited to be here tonight with a lower group of americans that's a group of

americans with a lower approval rating than i have. [laughter] >> that is hard to say after weight we just saw. that's what we just saw. the first time i president attended this dinner in six years. [applause] >> it is understandable. we had a horrible plague followed by two years of covid. [applause] >> just imagine if my predecessor came to this dinner this year. that would have really been a real coup if that had occurred. [laughter] host: president biden from last minds white house correspondents association dinner. we covered all of it last night. you can watch all of it at any

time on c-span.org or follow it on our mobile app. doug is in oklahoma asking you, would you support canceling student loan debt. go ahead with your comments. caller: i was listening to every, before. i think a sweet spot would be to lower the interest on the debt. i think that would be perfect. host: so to lower across the board the interest? caller: pretty much, yes. across-the-board. there may be some people that need a hand up sometimes.

that could be part of it, but the sweet spot for me is the lowering it. host: we will hear from oren josh earnest in northampton massachusetts who has paid off his student loan debt. caller: good morning. how are you today? host: fine, thank you. caller: i am against it. i don't believe taxpayers are people who never went to college should pay off other people's debts. you take out a loan, you pay it. there is no reason these young people cannot be working through college. anyone that says they cannot spare 20 hours a week during college to work i think should look in the mirror. there is plenty of jobs out there.

i don't think biden can do it constitutionally. i think it is the same as the rental moratorium. i was an attorney and worked in housing law. i would estimate that probably three quarters of the rental -- that were not paid had nothing to do with covid. people take advantage of these programs to not pay their debt. lastly, i also think that we need to look at these colleges that have spiked their costs up seemly over the years. they have no skin in the game. they just up their prices. they don't have skin in the game when these loans are not paid. they don't pay a penalty for providing many degrees that don't turn out to allow people to get good jobs afterwards. people should pay off the loans and the only other thing i would say is that there probably

should be some sort of cap on the interest but i don't think it should be forgiven. host: to the colors comments about the responsibilities of universities and colleges, go back to the editorial from "washington journal." in that, they write that as the loan limit increased over a time, it is now $57,000 a year for independent undergrads and $31,000 for those dependent on their parents. colleges raise their prices to sop up more federal -- it does not matter to the schools if they are philosophy grads, work as baristas. that is the opinion of "washington journal." caller: good morning from sunny, beautiful naples. i had about $70,000 in student loan debt and ultimately paid it

off. although, i would identify as a bleeding heart letter -- liberal, i do not support paying off student loan debt for taxpayer -- the taxpayers paying that. i think other people have said that you really do have to have skin in the game to value the education that you received. it begs the question if someone paid off their student loans two years ago, should they get a refund? five years ago? 10 years ago? i would like a check back for the money that i paid back. you had asked about does anybody have any solutions. are you still there? host: yes. caller: in terms of solutions, i don't know why the federal

government does not utilize the data, the statistics that you have from the bureau of labor statistics. identify the top 10 career paths or jobs that will be in demand for the next decade and then say to students moving forward, if you major in say these 10 most marketable majors, we will, as long as you graduate with that degree, we will pay for your education. i went to school so i am a registered nurse. i have been a registered nurse for 15 years. prior to that, i was an aspiring operatic tenor. i pursued that. it is obviously a very hard field.

something like that, i would say to someone who wants to be an italian comparative literature major, that is great, but it is not marketable. that is a hobby. you can learn a foreign language on your own just as myself as a performer, i can have a voice teacher and pursue that as a hobby and then it may become a paying profession, but in this day and age, you have really got to study something that is marketable, that is going to lead to a skill set that you can get a job with. host: and those loans help to get your nursing degree, right? caller: correct. $70,000 in student loans, i have an undergraduate degree from a very prestigious private university initially. i ultimately went to nursing school and got an rn diploma as

well as a second bachelor's degree in nursing and ultimately got a masters degree in microbiology. $70,000. all of those degrees. host: are you still singing as a hobby? caller: i'm not but only because i have discovered other hobbies. host: appreciate you weighing in this morning. thanks for the call. we have about 15 more minutes of your calls and comments. the senate majority whip on the floor of the senate about potential student loan forgiveness. [video clip] >> it is true that americans are facing economic challenges as a result of the inflation. that president biden and democrats helped create with their american rescue act. if anything, the latest student loan pause could help prolong our inflation problems and importantly, you will have the biggest benefits for those who are most able to deal with price hikes and inflation.

this clearly regresses policy, benefits high debt, high income borrowers significantly more than low debt and low income borrowers. again, to quote the washington post once more. rising prices of gas, rent, food and heart -- cars are a hardship but forgiving interest on student loans for four more months offers the biggest benefits to people who have earned degrees in medicine and law. these people go on to have lucrative careers. meanwhile, the 64% of americans who do not have a college degree don't benefit at all. from biden's paws on loan repayments. again, that from the washington post. subsidizing all of those doctors and lawyers ends up being pretty expensive.

the student loan repayment moratorium has already cost the federal government more than $100 billion. by the time the president's latest extension of the moratorium is up, it will cost the federal government billions more. host: question this morning, would you support canceling student debt? a tweet here says yes, if pension funds and farmers can get bailed out repeatedly, so can high-interest student debt. steven says no because it is not taxpayers responsibility. aaron texted us from pennsylvania. cancel america's debt to the federal reserve and shadow bankers. bank on the ignorance of citizens. they keep making the problems. irvin says no way, next, they will want you to pay their car payment, utilities, groceries, etc.. let's hear from ronald in new york who has paid off student

debt. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. a lot of interesting points have been made this morning. we have to understand that we are blessed to live in a country like this. we are together. if a college education is important to our society, then we should encourage everyone to go to college. people don't have to go to college but they still benefit from what college graduates can move this economy forward. it is upsetting to me when people look at these things simplistically. biden has an idea of forgiving some debt under some conditions. i have not heard anyone talk about vista. people trading their debt for service to america. that is what we need in this country, people to feel that

they are lucky to be here, to have been born here or immigrated here and they should feel a compulsion to give back to this country. thank you for letting me express myself. host: to jared in tampa, florida, good running. -- good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i'm someone who is sort of in between. i consider myself an independent. i have student loan debt and am currently paying off my student loan debt. i was very fortunate to study overseas. at a very procedures -- prestigious college. unfortunately, i'm not using the degree and expertise on middle east as i would've liked because i was studying in egypt at the american university in cairo when the revolution there began.

i was forced to come back to the united states and unfortunately, i was not able to get in to my career field because i was not able to complete my degree because of the ongoing revolution there. i had to quickly get a job because i had taken out graduate student loan debt. i had paid off my undergraduate while i was what -- working full time and going to school for my bachelors degree. i do not really use my expertise as they would have liked and i am in my early 40's now. i am working outside of my field and not able to get a job in something i am truly passionate about. as i have mentioned, i studied at the prestigious fragile at school overseas and a lot of my friends are international students and many of the countries they came from, they have been able to get their debt fully paid for by their home governments.

and at the same time, be able to get work in their fields of expertise. maybe it is because they are coming from so-called third world countries where the value of the education they receive at the university is prized in their home country. host: in your case, let me see if i have this right. you were forced to flee egypt during the revolution there in 2011, 2012? caller: yes. i was there in the academic year 2010-2011. i was studying arabic and i was translating a chapter of my masters dissertation to be published in arabic to help them and the american university publishes in english and arabic. the u.s. embassy and the president of the university at the time, the first woman who was president of the university

and i think the 100 year anniversary that i was there, strongly encouraged us to leave. i had to take an emergency flight where they were not even checking our passport and i ended up in moscow. i would never go back there. that is a separate topic of discussion. i'm not able to use my expertise and it is begrudging to me because that is something that was goal and plan a and when i meet my friends who were studying with me and they tell me they are working in their fields and their governments have paid for their debt through scholarships and so forth, it is interesting that the united states government is making high-interest earnings from student borrowers like myself and i am currently paying my debt at the same time. i think a fair compromise would be to lower the interest rate sick acutely on the federal debt -- significantly on the federal debt. host: several people have mentioned that. thank you for sharing your

experience with us. again, last night was the white house correspondents dinner. the host was trevor noah. some of his comments from last night. [video clip] >> how is everyone doing tonight? thank you so much. good evening, mr. president, members of the media and all the men relieve that ronan farrow is not here tonight. it is my great honor to be speaking at the nations most prestigious super-spreader event. what are we doing here? did none of you learned anything from the gridiron dinner? do you read any of your own newspapers? i expect this from sean hannity, but the rest of you? what are you doing here? you spent the last two years telling everyone about the importance of wearing masks and avoiding large indoor gatherings. the second someone offers you a free dinner you turn into joe rogan.

dr. fauci dropped out. that should have been a pretty big sign. fauci thought it was too dangerous to come tonight. pete davidson things it's ok. and we all with with pete -- live with pete. ok. host: just a reminder, you can watch all of the event last my on our website and our mobile app. on the issue of student loan debt, this is from usa today. "young people want student loan debt relief but not all want it totally canceled." they say 85% are in favor of government action on student loans, a total of 2000 were surveyed and 85% said they favored some sort of government action but only 38% favor total debt cancellation. in brooklyn, we hear from penny.

caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i'm just listening to some of these people. and educated citizenry is good for this country. why are we paying to get a job? these people who work to pay back these loans, they are paying taxes too. they are taxpayers. education should be free. that is what is required to get these jobs. that should be free. when you have an educated citizenry, that is great for this country. why can't we do what other countries do? education should not be where you have a loan that is bigger than a mortgage. that is ridiculous. that has to be fixed. host: james is in buffalo with student loan debt.

good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am listening to all of these people calling in saying that we should pay their loans. i've paid the majority of my loan back. i have worked hard, had to take two jobs. if i can do it, anybody can do it. nobody owes them a free ride. not only that, they voted for biden. the only reason they voted for biden is because they all want to get theirs to the loan payoff. now look at the problems that biden has put this country in. he has made a train wreck of it. now, what about the people out here still working? don't pay their loans back. they don't deserve anything. if you are going to sit there and take the loan out, you pay the loan. we owe them nothing. matter of fact, we should charge them for the wreck this economy is in.

thank you and have a nice day. host: this is the opinion cartoon this morning and "the washington post" opinion page. it is joe's student loans bar. the bartender, drinks on the house, he says. on the barstool label, taxpayers, why are you handing the bill to me? in lowell, michigan. tom, good morning. caller: i will go as fast as possible. i see you are toward the end of your show. i agree with the people who expressed a sense of fiscal responsibility all morning. there seems to be dozens. first of all, i paid off my loan. i started saving for it when i was a freshman. i paid off my loan. in the summers i worked 60, 70 hours a week and i had $20 in my pocket the day i graduated. this comes from a family.

i got a little help, probably 25% of it paid for with my parents. this comes from a family with a father that nailed his shoes together when he went to middle school, and he worked all the time and he lived in a home. my grandparents live in a home that you can see electrical sockets stapled to the side of the wall. i married a wife who was a single mother and she had some very hard circumstances. she was not able to go to school. she is probably one of the top 20 smartest people of the county. top 20 smartest people in the county. she didn't ask for a penny from the federal government and she didn't ask for a penny from a parent to get help.

in her friends she is probably financially in the top 25% and she had many friends who went to college. it can be done. biden's proposal, remember it includes the wealthy and their kids to pay this off in his proposal. it seems to be extremely unfair that we pay off student loans. what about the kids and my family who didn't go to college and they worked immediately, and their taxes go to pay off those loans? that doesn't make any sense at all. these students signed that contract. they should learn to read the print before you sign anything. host: thanks for your call. more ahead here on "washington journal." next we will talk about the

massive covert outbreak in china and how a shut down there could impact the u.s. and global economy. our next guest is mercatus center senior member weifeng zhong. later, aaron reichlin-melnick of the american immigration counselor will talk about the biden administration border policy. ♪ >> this week on the c-span networks, the house is not in session but the senate is meeting. senators excited to vote on several and administration nominees. tuesday at 10 :00 a.m. eastern, transportation secretary pete buttigieg testifies before the senate commerce, science and transportation committee on his department's budget request.

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c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. america is launching on c-span, powered by cable -- is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: next up, we are going to talk about the covid outbreak on china and the potential impact on the global economy. our guest is weifeng zhong, senior fellow at the mercatus center. bring us up to speed on what the covid situation is now, particularly in shanghai. guest: covid is now having a second wave in china because if you look at a lot of indicators

in china, it is very similar to spring 2020. air traffic is way down, economic activity is down and the lockdown in shanghai is similar to the lockdown in wuhan, but it is making the world worry again. host: how big a city is shanghai? guest: shanghai has tens of millions of people. host: a lot more than any american city. guest: a lot more. the entire region accounts for about a quarter of the gdp of china. that is a very important region and a lockdown what matter. host: we've heard from the government they have a so-called zero covid strategy. what is that? guest: the strategy is to lock people down in their eyes -- when there is a spread of covid cases so it would stop the spread in a matter of weeks.

that is the goal. they will not achieve absolutely zero but the goal is to try and curb the lockdown and they are asking people to stay home. host: the chinese are using the strategy of broad lockdowns but what about vaccines in china? how widespread have the vaccines been and are they using the western vaccines? i know the chinese developed their own vaccine but what is the story of their vaccines? guest: they were administered primarily for younger generations. in the beginning did not -- they did not want to give it to the most senior generations because they are motivated to get the younger folks back to the workforce sooner, so that is the story of 2021 and that is why a lot of the senior residence in shanghai were not vaccinated at that makes the situation worse. another point is that they are

not using american vaccines. all of the vaccines are chinese. host: we talked about the region of shanghai and how much economic activity happens. you set up to one quarter of the chinese economy comes from that region and the headline here in the new york times, the country lockdowns have trapped truck drivers on highways, halted production lines and forced -- to source outside china. are we seeing those effects in the united states? guest: it might be too early but it is certainly going to affect the u.s. economy. even the impact on china will take time but what we have known now is that in terms of the manufacturing activities in china, it has already started to turn south. within a month or two, it will impact the u.s. economy. host: you mentioned the lockdown

in 2020 in wuhan. did the chinese see that as a successful model? do they anticipate the lockdown in shanghai will stall the spread of covid in the rest of china? guest: i think how poorly the lockdown ended in shanghai was a surprise to the authorities because they did view the strategy up to shanghai to be a success. especially eric -- especially earlier on, we did not have the omicron variant, so the spread was more easily controlled and it was not a problem for the larger economic regions. the cost-benefit calculus seemed to work but the lockdown in shanghai went disastrously. host: to be clear, this lockdown is because of the omicron variant. guest: that is certainly a major

factor. another concern was that i think it is not clear how effective the chinese vaccines really are. i suspect that beijing doesn't know either. it is entirely possible to vaccines are not effective. if you do not lock people down, it will spread uncontrollably. host: our guest is weifeng zhong , senior research fellow at the mercatus center. we were talking about the lockdown in shanghai and the potential broader effects on the global and u.s. economy. the lines to use our for democrats, (202)-748-8000. republicans, (202)-748-8001. independents and others, (202)-748-8002. in the midst of this, does it seem surprising that president xi has called for a fairly

aggressive economic growth for china this year? guest: the goal target was set before they knew the shanghai lockdown was going to go so poorly. the growth target was 5.5%, but just last month, the imf has already downgraded the growth prediction for china. the truth might be even lower. another big question is how much of the sophistical -- officials statistics are real in china. host: how do you validate or get the trust or at least understand the data that is coming out of the chinese government? what do you do to try and ascertain the truth? guest: that is an interesting question. one study i did was to try and figure out how bad the covid-19

outbreak in china really was because if you look at official statistics, you can't really trust much because they were like i don't know, five cases at some point for the entire country? . we want to look beyond official statistics and look at how the government pretrade the spread of the pandemic in the official newspaper because if you're asking people to stay home, don't go out and yet you are saying we only have five cases, what is the idea? host: at what point did the chinese economy and society really open up in 2021? were they ahead of the rest of the world in being able to do that? guest: they were. the lockdown strategy use to work quite well before the omicron variant. a lot of the countries in the

world were not having a lot of economic activities but by 2021, in china, people were leading quite a normal life. the lockdown strategy worked well up to most recently. host: so shanghai is the region really experience in the lockdown now. are there any hints that the virus has spread elsewhere and that there are other measures happening in china that we may see soon? guest: beijing is not a huge concern. compared to the population, that is not a lot but i think the chinese authorities are digging their own graves in terms of official statistics because they always try to play down the official case numbers but then when you want to lock people down, it makes them puzzled because why are we seeing so few cases but we have to steep -- stay-at-home? they are creating contradictions for themselves.

the populations are similar but the economic activity in beijing is a smaller fraction in terms of chinese gdp. if they could sustain such a disastrous lockdown in shanghai and be fine with it, they will be perfectly fine with locking down beijing as well because economically, it is not as important. host: democrats, the line is (202)-748-8000. republicans, (202)-748-8001. all others, (202)-748-8002. i want to play the comments of the white house press secretary, when she was asked about with u.s. is doing to prepare for a potential economic ramifications of the shutdown in china. [video clip] >> china looking at more lockdowns. is there anything that the administration is looking at doing to help the supply chains if this blocks up again? >> we are following this very

closely and as you know, there were a couple issues at play here. shenzhen has reopened and they are moving around which ports they were going through. there are a couple industries that were impacted. we have not seen a decrease in ships coming to our ports in california from asia. we are continuing to monitor that and beijing has increased their testing which could be a precursor to a lockdown, but we don't know at this point. but we are doing right now is we are closely monitoring but we have not seen a slowdown in ships coming to our ports in california. if there is an increase as lockdowns decrease in some parts of china, we will also be prepared for that, because we've been able to take steps to reduce the number of cargo ships there. host: weifeng zhong, it seems like that is the real indicator, the traffic of ships coming to

american ports from china. guest: if you look at the traffic into american ports, they have not seen the signs yet but if you look at traffic going out of ports in shanghai, it is already being affected. the impact is starting to be seen and you can see them on flights in china. host: just in intra-country flights. guest: flights between china and the united states is down to about 2% of the pre-pandemic levels and that has a lot to do with some retaliation between the two countries because of tensions between the countries and so they cancel each other's flights and that is also causing travel to be way down. host: joe is on the independent

line in south carolina. caller: good morning. i'm calling to find out, the lockdown in china, is it because the vaccine hasn't been working properly or is it because -- i don't understand. we have a very good vaccine out here. why don't they use our vaccine if the problem is so big when you have to lockdown a lot of people? is the chinese vaccine effective? why wouldn't everybody use the best vaccine in the world? i heard you say that there were problems with the government. host: the chinese vaccine?

guest: there are two major brands in china for the vaccines and in terms of efficacy, it is hard to know because knowing that more precisely would require a natural experiment of not locking down anyone in china and seeing how widely it spreads. unfortunately we may not be able to know that what we do know is that at some point, china had the opportunity to import vaccines from the western world and decided not to do that. i think an example was astrazeneca when china was going to make a deal but then politics got in the way in china asked european countries to recognize chinese vaccines in exchange. when that got to the picture, the deal fell through and that is why china does not have western vaccines that might have been more effective. host: david in georgia. good morning. caller: good morning.

how are you doing? host: i'm doing fine, thank you. caller: two questions for mr. zhong. i have a comment about something you said a few minutes ago. all others is not 8002, that is independents. i asked a long time ago if you would put up another line for liberals and conservatives. host: got it. i hear your comment. we do sometimes. go ahead with your questions. caller: i've got two questions about china. one of them is what is their current unemployment rate? we saw how our just in time delivery system fell apart when the shipping all piled up on the west coast because they withheld it for two weeks because of covid restrictions.

can you talk about that a little bit? host: we appreciate that. guest: could you clarify the second question? host: it was about the just in time delivery of goods and he was wondering if that was because it was delayed in china. i guess the problem was potentially a retaliation because of the disagreements on covid. guest: i'm not too familiar with the second one but i will take a stab on the first question, unemployment numbers. i don't know offhand the exact number but based on what i have been following in terms of statistics, it is always very low. if you look at employment numbers in china, it is always a straight line going up stop of course the chinese government will use the numbers for their own narratives but sometimes it comes back to haunt them like what i said about the lockdown

policy, that at some point it brings in inconsistency with what policy agenda they want to pursue. host: is china also experiencing inflation like the rest of the world? guest: it certainly is. the lockdown really hurts people's day-to-day lives, especially in shanghai because there are stories about how much money people can make delivering goods, on top of the prices discharged by -- that is charged by urgent nice. that makes the logistics really tough. host: next up is loretta on our democrats line in ohio. caller: good morning. i don't know where to begin. let's start with the shut down. we were shut down by trump, and

no one said anything about the supply chain then, and we were shut down for years, which means that china makes all of our products, so they've been hit by four or five different covid waves, which means that this is really messed up, it is a strategic mistake on the corporations part, here in america, because they are seeking the wage bottom. not only that, the corporations are yelling and screaming about intellectual property theft. china stealing all of their stuff. well why are they there? nobody is keeping our companies

over there. i don't believe that and what really gets me is that congress and the senate wrote legislation around all of this cyber staff and to me, they are sitting up a way for them to be paid and we just got finished with a segment where people don't even want to help students pay for their college. this is a bad situation. what do you think about this? host: thank you for the call. guest: there is a lot to unpack. i think the lockdown is interesting to observe and back in 2020 when the pandemic first started, a lot of other countries followed this or to g of the lockdown in wuhan and i think that is an indication of how much the global influence china has.

the virus started in china but the lockdown also started in china and a lot of countries are following because they didn't know anything and the only example they could follow was the lockdown strategy in china and that says a lot about china's global influence in the fact that -- another thing about intellectual properties in china, that is an interesting point because i was born and raised in china and i grew up not having to pay anything for software and i river when moved to hong kong when there wasn't electoral property protections, i was amazed you had to buy software for your computers and i was like why do you have to pay for software? what kind of world we live in? that was when i realized that is something that needs protection and what was happening in china was asked not good for

innovation when you don't have protection for intellectual property. i monitor chinese propaganda for my own research and to this day we have not seen any emphasis on the importance of protecting intellectual property. that has a lot of implications for china's long-term growth as well. host: you mentioned you went to school in china and got your degree in the university of hong kong. what is your overall view of the change in leadership and the increasingly higher presence of beijing's imprint on chinese leadership? guest: it is a very sad transition that i have witnessed over the years. i was there in late 2000. one indication if you look at just a matter of two weeks, hong kong is going to have its election to select the next leader and there is only one

candidate eligible to run. there is only one candidate possible to win and it wasn't like that. this is the first time since the hong kong handover when there is no more candidates than the seats. it used to be that there was some sort of competition between two or three candidates, not to mention that ordinary hong kong citizens didn't even get to vote on the leader of the city. the drastic narrowing of space in hong kong is very concerning and there is a lot of interference from beijing. host: a question about the broader elections in china. will the response to the lockdown in shanghai affect the reelection of president xi? guest: it is not likely yet because one thing i found very striking about the lockdown in shanghai was that although there are some complaints by shanghai

residents about the lockdown, i think over the chinese people have shown a remarkable level of obedience for this kind of your crony and policy and that is an indication of how strong president xi's grip on the economy and the country is. if you look at some chinese politicians who are more practical, they do not get much air in chinese media and a good comparison was that he was in the outside mentions of xi jinping in the newspaper whereas xi jinping's name appears on the newspaper 88 times per day. that is a lot about the contrast of power and if somebody who is practical does not get airtime, we know the strongman will have a control on it. guest: a big piece of your job is reading and watching daily

chinese media. guest: it says a lot about the government intention and we think about chinese propaganda, the first thought that comes to mind is misinformation or disinformation, fake news. that is the closest. i think what is underappreciated is the fact that words represent intentions and tightly controlled state media by the same reasoning reflects the intention of the chinese government. that is what i do with the policy change index, is figure out why they say certain things, not because they are true but what that says about what they will do next. host: there intention. guest: exactly. host: let's hear from sandy in ohio. caller: yes, i was wondering, since there is evidently another outbreak, are the wet bars still open in china, that maybe had

something to do with the virus again? host: the wet markets you are talking about? caller: yes. guest: if you look at the origin of covid, i think to this day it is still a mystery, was it a wet market in wuhan or a lab in wuhan? there is contrary evidence on both sides. that is the troubling aspect of observing china is sometimes you really can't understand 100% and that makes the -- that make the people's job who are observing china even harder. host: let's go to illinois, tyrone is next. caller: mr. zhong, i've got a

few questions for you. my first question is the shipping containers out of china are now's -- they went as high as $30,000 per container and they used to cost $3500 just a couple years ago. who is profiting off of this? is it big businesses? is it china that is giving -- getting that money? my other question to you is do we have a lot of import containers sitting in the united states causing a shortage? my third question to you is, we typically get our fall and christmas goods in july and where do you see us getting them this year? is it going to be august or september? host: are you still there? are you in a business that relies on getting those fall and christmas goods by midsummer?

caller: yes sir. we normally get them around july and then the beginning of august, we get christmas goods but the way spring has hit this year out of china, it has been quite the -- so i'm curious how that was going to affect us. host: thank you for the insight. guest: i think about the container ships, we have now seen a surge of demand globally, so people who have been staying home for almost two years are spending more than they used to, but then the supply did not catch up. that is the overall reason for why there is a shortage in almost every sector and of course the lockdown in china is not helping, instead adding to

this overall trend but another thing is that it is hard to figure out who exactly is profiting off the cost of a shipment but one answer is that certainty -- uncertainty matters a lot. if you look at a container shipment in the black sea now because of the conflict in ukraine, sometimes the insurance companies will add on open conflict insurance because ships could be sunk in the conflict. sometimes company have to -- companies have to pay a whole lot to ship the regular amounts of goods. shipping costs in china could be affected by some of these uncertainties and it is hard to understand. for christmas shipments, i understand the concern and oftentimes we have to start worrying about christmas in july, but there is a lot of uncertainty and you have to wait a few more months to see how

this plays out in china. host: let me ask you more about the ukraine war. there is a headline that says foreign investors are ditching china. russia's war is the latest trigger. what has been the impact on china due to their relationship with russia? guest: that is the hardline the chinese press is trying to walk is how close they want to get to pruden on moscow because china until recently viewed russia as a very important ally because china did not have good and powerful allies in the world anyway before that and that is why they insisted on inviting putin to the olympic games and he ended up being the only foreign guest china had because of the boycott. there is a lot of conjecture about whether china knew about

the invasion before it happened but they did not perceive that they would be put in such a difficult position and so now china is trying to pull back in not working with russia as much as pruden had hoped -- putin had hoped for. china does not want to be sanctioned to get secondary sanctions by the west. secondary sanctions meaning of china violates the sanctioned rule on russia and works with russia, it might have room of occasions on chinese companies. host: china had it cannot relations with ukraine as well correct? guest: yes. it is a difficult situation and china does what -- does want to maintain good relations with ukraine and surrounding countries as well and some nato countries like poland did want to maintain good relations. it is a hard balance to strike. host: let's hear from kenneth in

florida, republican line. caller: i have a question. i did study -- in the mid-70's and -- about russia and china being adversaries and my question will be we know that china -- as far as what information they give out to the west. what do you think the real amount of debt in -- deaths in china? they say 30,000 have been killed by the virus and we know that is incorrect. what do you feel is the true number? guest: that is a good question. about chinese and russian

relations, ethic it has been uneasy ever since the beginning of the people's republic of china because even with mao, he had a hard time in terms of relations with the soviet union. for that reason, i think this relationship has been uneasy and it has not been easy to this day. the question you have was about the death number and it is hard to know and i think there are some specifics or anecdotes when the lockdown in wuhan was lifted and there are long lines of people picking up the ashes of loved ones who died during covid and the lines certainly seemed longer than the numbers that were reported out of wuhan. it is very concerning and hard to know but my work has

indicated that by monitoring the talking points and chinese media, we have seen evidence that the case and death numbers are downplayed but the extent to which it was downplayed is much harder to gauge in terms of the direction. host: next up, terry in indiana on the independent line. caller: good morning everyone. i've got a few questions for you. you spoke about mao. i wonder what your feelings were because i know that he murdered several million people in your country. the other question is about president biden, and what is going on their. i've heard that you guys give him millions of dollars, him and

his son. i would like to know about those things. host: we can ask more broadly, the difference in the relationship between the by demonstration with the chinese government and the trump evidence ration. guest: i don't see much difference. i think that u.s. policy toward china has been about as tough under president biden as under president trump. if you look at the tariffs the u.s. has china, they were not lifted at all after several years of trade war and i think the general attitude to china is bipartisan in this town. the other thing, the caller asked about mao. a lot of people in china did not know about the atrocities under mao. some people came to learn, i certainly came to learn about the truth and left china.

whether there were -- one of the more striking things i learned, when i left for hong kong from a graduate studies, 2006 was when i learned about the atrocities in tiananmen square. i thought i had kept up with the news. host: and you knew nothing about it before then? guest: i knew there were protests. what i learned an official propaganda was it was a minor disturbance on the square. i thought the government took care of it. when i saw the words massacre in the iconic sculpture in hong kong, in memory of the massacre. when i went and saw that, i thought what massacre? i don't think anybody died. of course a lot of innocent students and residents in beijing died for that and that is when i learned.

that is the power of information control. if information control is so effective, it must have set a lot of chinese policies. host: how are others using your policy change index? what is the use for it? guest: the policy change index is for monitoring change in terms of the emphasis in chinese propaganda on different issues, for example during the cultural revolution, before the beginning of economic reforms, the chinese government had to talk up the function of the market before the actually went for the market economy. this kind of change in narrative would come before changes in policy and we have used that to inform policymakers during trade negotiations between china and the u.s. when some people in wall street were expecting that china would back down in terms of protecting property,

intellectual property. what we saw was nothing of the sort. we made the prediction that china was not going to back down and the prediction is still standing today. host: viewers and listeners can follow our guest on twitter, and read more at mercatus.org. let's go to zach. caller: thank you for taking my call. my question for mr. zhong is, who influenced who more? did the china -- did the u.s. influence coming to china or did communist china influence the u.s.? china became part of the wto in the 1990's. we have seen their gdp significantly grow. we see the wealthy get wealthier in china and we see the wealthier get wealthier in the

u.s., while the middle class has suffered. we have an opioid epidemic and we've lost millions of jobs to china. we de-industrialized our country, and in the meantime tech oligarchs are suppressing free speech. i want to get your thoughts on that. i find it ironic that covid is popping up in china while the u.s. is barreling into midterm elections. i just wanted to get your thoughts on who influenced more. host: we appreciate the call. guest: that is a great question. when people look back at the year 2000 when china joined the wto, there was a widespread -- expectation in the u.s. and china that the country after joining would become more open. a lot of elite politicians

wanted that to happen and of course now they have become the minority and i think it is a surprising turn that people did not foresee that the country would become -- and now the problem is if you look at a lot of democratic countries in the world, we have gradually seen more chinese influence. if you look at our press, there are some news outlets just to name a few examples that got content straight from the shanghai news agency, sometimes they are paid to do it, like streaming content from the chinese news agency and at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a story that in china, that covid was brought to china by u.s. military personnel and that story was propagated by some western outlets and one outlet

actually defended the recycling of the news by saying that they prefer people to learn different sides of the debate. this is not a side, this is something that that was not true. we have seen more and more of that kind of propagating of chinese content in western outlets and that is one form of chinese influence. there is a lot of controversy surrounding -- there is no lack of shortage of efforts in china to try and sway people's minds in the university campuses. host: our guest, weifeng zhong at the mercatus center. you can follow him on twitter. we appreciate you being with us on "washington journal." there is more ahead here on the program. up next, we will be joined by aaron reichlin-melnick of the

american immigration counsel. -- american immigration council. that is coming up next. later we will get an update on the russia-ukraine war as president biden asks congress for more humanitarian aid. that conversation with retired general james dubik from the institute for the study of war. ♪ >> for the past 20 years, dr. fisher has worked in the emergency department at the university of chicago medical center, serving the same southside community.

he decided to write about his experience in a large urban hospital emergency room. he says at the end of the shift, he was haunted by the confusion in the eyes of his patients. he asked a couple questions. who is this man treating them from behind a mask? why did they have to wait so many hours to be treated? dr. fisher attempts to answer these and many other questions in his book, about a year of feeling at heartbreak in a chicago er. >> dr. topics fisher -- dr. thomas fisher with his book. but notes plus is now available on the c-span now mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. >> c-span brings you an ultimate -- an unfiltered view of government. our newsletter recaps the day for you. from the halls of congress to daily press briefings to remarks from the president.

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no matter where you are from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if it happens here or here or here or anywhere that matters, america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: next up we are joined by aaron reichlin-melnick from the american immigration council. he is the senior policy counsel, here to talk about the situation at the border and border and immigration policy. guest: thank you for having me. host: tell us about your organization, your mission, how you are funded and what you are trying to affect in terms of policy changes. guest: the american immigration council is a nonprofit

organization based in washington, d.c. and for the past few decades, we have worked to support immigrants in the united states and acknowledge that this country's approached immigration has not always treated immigration -- immigrants with the rights they should be afforded and we have not always lived up to our ideals. we use litigation, research, advocacy and other strategies to advance the cause of immigrant rights and promote due process in the immigration system. host: certainly a fraught time at the southern border. some of president biden's critics have called the situation at the border a crisis. do you agree with that? guest: we've been in a series of crises for the past few years because we spent the last eight years ago knowing the changes we need to make to our system of. humanitarian protection at the border. every time we attempt to double down on deterrence-based policies, we have a brief temporary halt in the number of people coming followed by another backlash.

we are in a series of different crises with the route being that we have not taken the time to fix the system. host: is it the kind of thing that has happened through republican and democratic administrations and congresses? guest: exactly. we look back to 2014 with president obama with the arrival of families and his response. then the trump administration and 2018 and 2019 with family separations and zero-tolerance. now under president biden, we have the continued use of title 42 and we are in excessive waves of refugees seeking him editorial protection in the united states along with the continuing ongoing inflation from the covid-19 pandemic. host: let's talk about the remain in mexico program. the case that came before the supreme court recently, he wrote about it. the remaining mexico case before the supreme court, they will rule on this before they get to

term. what does that case involve? guest: it is important to realize this is not a case about whether remain in mexico is a good idea or even whether it is legal. what the supreme court is hearing is a case about whether the by demonstration has the right to end the program in the first place. this is in contrast to the daca case in front of the supreme court two years ago. they are, everyone agreed president trump could end the action if he had gone through the right procedures. here it is different. the court said not only did the by demonstration go through the wrong procedures but also said they were barred from ever ending it unless congress does something it has never done in history which is appropriate billions of dollars to detain every person crossing the border. what the supreme court will actually be deciding is whether a new resident has the right to ever left a border policy put in place by his predecessor. host: what did you hear and as

arguments? guest: we heard a lot of skepticism, even from the conservative justices about texas's argument. even justice barrett said if texas is wrong about a particular interpretation of the by demonstration use of the law, then they just lose the case. every justice was skeptical of texas's idea that a 1996, congress forced the president to negotiate with mexico to put a program like this in place and yet for 25 years even under the trump administration, nobody ever thought the law required that. justice kagan at one point said, is the u.s. government simply supposed to send us loads of people into mexico without their permission? the answer of course is no. congress knows how to say a president has to negotiate on an issue when it wants to and it certainly did not in this case. host: let me ask about the other issue that is up for being lifted by may 23, this title 42.

tell us what that does. guest: title 42 refers to a century-old public health law that allows the cdc director to halt the entry of individuals into the united states if the director determines there is a serious danger of a communicable disease being introduced to the united states. when the pandemic hit in march 2020, the trump administration invoke this law to begin expelling migrants at the border. because title 42 is a public health law and not an immigration law, they had to invent the concept of expulsions which is sibley when a person arrives on u.s. soil, they get taken by a border official and sent back to another country without any formal legal process. host: whether or not they tested positive for covid or any of that. guest: there was no test requirement and the trump of industry should was at one point sending people to guatemala who

had tested negative for covid, under the guise of this policy because guatemala said we are not going to let you send anyone here until you test them to ensure they are not positive with covid. we had a bizarre circumstance where unaccompanied children were being sent to guatemala supposedly to protect us from covid after the already tested negative for the virus. that policy has been in place for two years and has led to a massive explosion in the number of people crossing the border over and over again because the policy itself has incentivized people to cross the border repeatedly, as border patrol officials have said. this is for two reasons. first, the ports of entry have been closed to asylum-seekers since title 42 went into effect. people who are desperate in northern mexico and waiting for a chance of the asylum system to restart often feel they have no choice but to seek safety by crossing the border. host: at any entry point. guest: right now if you are an

asylum seeker in mexico, unless you are ukrainian, effectively cannot go to a port of entry and asked for asylum. the only way to ask is to take one step across the border and hope that you don't get expelled under title 42. host: on your website, the american immigration council website, our viewers can look at the line of apprehensions beginning in march, 2020 win title 42 begins. that line goes up lick rocket. -- goes up like a rocket. what happens with the by demonstration when they take over? the policy is still in effect. did those apprehensions continue? guest: apprehensions started going up, the minute title 40 -- title 42 went into effect. data revealed the number of mexican single adults crossing the border more than once doubled in the six weeks after title 42 went into effect and by

fall 2020, there were already the highest apprehensions at the border for 15 to 20 years. when president biden took office, a second thing happened. the increase that occurred under the trump administration was premier league under single people from these nationalities that can be expelled to mexico. mexico said at the start of the pandemic they would not accept other nationalities, only allowing the u.s. government to expel to mexico those four nationalities. when the biden administration took office, the people crossing the border were overweight -- overwhelmingly single adults from those four countries being expelled to mexico. they would get sent back and then cross again and get expelled back and cross again because under title 42, since it was a public health law, -- you can be expelled back to mexico an unlimited number of times without ever risking getting a deportation order, or even being

criminally prosecuted. host: we are talking with aaron reichlin-melnick, senior policy counsel at the american immigration council. we welcome your calls and comments at (202)-748-8000 for democrats, (202)-748-8001 for republicans and for independents and all others, (202)-748-8002. president biden has been criticized in advance of lifting this title 42 for having no plan in place. what is your sense of what the plan will be once that title 42 is lifted? guest: title 42 is not going to be lifted on may 23. a court in louisiana last tuesday indicated it was going to block the by demonstration from ending title 42 on that date. may 23 is no longer the operative date. the policy is going to be in place until the. it is important to note that the by demonstration does have a plan, that is focused on making

sure the border patrol is not overwhelmed. the secretary of the department of homeland security published a lot more details about the plan earlier this week and the plan rests on six pillars and is broadly around processing resources. some of the things they said they were going to do was add 500 new border patrol crossing coordinators. those are civilian government employees who are not border patrol agent's who do all the paperwork. right now the border patrol agents are saying they are stuck in the stations doing paperwork and processing migrants and not out in the field. what the administration is trying to do is say we need to get these agents out of the processing game and get them back into the field. the plan they put forward this week is about focusing their resources on that, making sure the border patrol agents can be out in the field doing what they do, and that migrants inside processing centers can be processed without having to take

agents out of the field. host: let me ask you about the effectiveness of the trump border walls built during his presidency, and also the washington post reporting yesterday there had been a major amount of -- taking a grid -- grim toll in debts and injuries in people trying to get over the wall. guest: recent stories put out have shown that the number of people being hurt or killed after falling from the border wall skyrocketed, after the increase to the height of hundreds of miles of wall from 10 feet to 30 feet. what this has shown is what we have always known, and what everybody acknowledged prior to the trump administration. walls don't work for everybody. there were always going to be ways around the wall. the border wall is actually breached three to four times a day by people cutting through it because you can cut through it with a $100 circular saw from

home depot. it is made out of steel and you can cut through it with a standard piece of power tools. people go over read, underwrite, around it and they go through it. most importantly, we are talking about humanitarian migration asylum-seekers, the right to apply for asylum attaches the second you are on u.s. soil. everywhere along the rio grande, the border is actually in the middle of the river. the minute you have a foot on u.s. soil, if you are seeking asylum, you can just simply go up to the border wall and asked to be let in. host: is that what is called the wet foot, dry foot policy? guest: no, that was in reference to cubans. it was a policy whereby any cuban who got one foot on u.s. soil was granted parole and would be allowed to get a green card under the cuban adjustment act. host: one question about the border wall. do you think the border walls

anywhere, whether built by the trump administration guest: they have a purpose and it is deterrence. in the 1990's the clinton administration had prevention through deterrence with the idea they can reduce migration by closing the easier and safer places to cross the border, so san diego, el paso where millions had crossed prior. if you make it more dangerous fewer will take the risk and cross. what we found out the last 30 years is when you make it more dangerous not that fewer cross but more die. last year as a sign that the border is very much not open last year was the highest number of deaths on record and this year is on track to beat that. host: well go to albuquerque,

new mexico, independent line. brian, you are on. caller: good morning, gentlemen. something that is missing from the immigration discussions i don't think most americans understand how high the world population has grown in the last 60 years. when ellis island was opened there were less than 3 billion people on the planet. in the last 60 years we have added nearly 5 billion so the numbers are going up tremendously. when i listen to immigration activists like this, immigration is nothing but good, being tack unlimited numbers. i wish democrats, if they want to win elections they need to talk about limits. we can't take everybody. we have a shortage of affordable housing in this country but that is never discussed. it is let them in, let them in.

which isn't realistic. i think we need to change some laws. we can't take everybody. now we have climate change which will cost hundreds of thousands of more people to be on the move and want to come to the united states and get all the freebies from the federal government. it is crazy. host: ok. let's get a response. guest: i think it is important to note no one is saying we need to let an unlimited number people into the united states and there are not an unlimited number. he mentioned ellis island and it is important to realize in the time ellis island was in operation we had a higher percent of the american population was foreign born than today. we have still not reached the level of immigration as a proportional per capita that we had 100 years ago. there's a lot of misconception about asylum and the benefits.

asylum seekers do not get benefits. if you sook asylum you are likely potentially going to have to wait five to section years even if you win your case it get permanent legal status and you may not be able to legally work during that process. so there are hundreds of thousands of alum seekers waiting who have to rely on the generosity of friends and strange, just it survive. they are not getting government benefits lower. for the last 30 years pretty much any immigrant in the united states who doesn't have a green card is largely banned from getting were if any government benefits. host: when is the last time there was a thorough revision of american immigration laws? guest: it has been 32 years since we updated the number of visas. 1990 is the last time we increased them when the soviet union was around.

last time we did any major overhaul of immigration is 1996. that is why everyone agrees the laws that were created are from a different era. the late 20th century. we are now a fifth of the way in the 21st century and still using the old laws. host: to nancy in hamilton, ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to know if, let's say the states of texas and arizona declared marshal law and put national guard on their southern borders and stopped all of the illegal aliens coming across and would use the reason that drugs are coming across with these people and the drugs are killing thousands of their young people. now, that is a good reason it

stop these aliens from coming across. what would the evil and despicable democrats do? thank you. guest: i want to talk about drugs because there's a lot of misconceptions here. if you talk to the drug enforcement and border protection they are unanimous. opioids like fentanyl and historian overwhelmingly enter through ports of entry primarily vehicles driven by u.s. citizens. drugs don't come from migrants. only within drug crosses mime pete carroll between ports of entry and that is marijuana. the number of -- the amount of marijuana crossing has been falling for years ever since it becomes more legalized in the united states. on this idea of sending troops,

i think that we have to make a point here. the united states is not being invaded. we can look at ukraine and see what a real invasion looks like. there are no masked raids in el paso. there are no dying civilians being shelled in brownsville and no one is making a last stand as enemy troops approach in san diego. what we have are what has been going on for decades at the border. people who want a better life combined with people who are fleeing persecution and see the united states as beacon of freedom and want to come and be safe and raise their family away from violence. host: well hear from ire rugs -- iris. caller: aaron, do you know how much the increase has been in

putting people on the border from our side security, detection and all that. and if there were not so many people there to assist those who are crossing over, where would they go? how would they get there? would they be stuck? and if they are coming across the rio grande and getting into the water first of all with the drugs, wouldn't the drugs be ruined in the crossing? they won't be holding it over their head when crossing. and i would like it know the increase in how many people we have put into the industry moving these people to a better place getting them inspected, getting them a job, getting them food. what is the mexican people doing about the folks that cross into mexico and bring drugs and guns?

i think that they do a better job detecting what is coming into their country than we are. host: a couple of things there, iris. guest: i want to start with the latter point. she makes a great point this is not a flow that is within direction. as much as drugs come into the united states by ports of entry in cars and trucks, on the seam time from the united states into mexico are guns. mocks makes gaps very hard it legally obtain so nearly all the guns and weapons used by cartels are american made and the government of mexico has sued several u.s. gun manufacturers for a practice of encouraging the building of guns and construction of guns that appeal to the cartel. on the question of resource, the last 30 years we have poured billions into increasing staffing and capacity at the

u.s.a.-mexico border. 30 years ago there were about 30 agents. we have invested billion --00s of millions of dollars on technology and blanketed the border in thousands of cameras, radar, drones, blimps and other technology. 30 years ago when we detected less than half the people crossing today we detect nearly everybody who crosses the border. now, to some extent despite having higher apprehension numbers the number crossing was higher because we were able to only apprehend a smaller portion but she talks about transportation. right now the biden administration's plan for lifting title 42 involves spending money on bus contracts

so that people can be bussed to places that can support them. they are usually to cities like dams or san antonio which have bus stations because when people get dropped off at the border they usually go to shelters run by nonprofit often religious organizations who believe in helping migrants. they help orient people like what the next 24 hours are and get tickets to the ultimate destination. there's a wide misconception that the u.s. government is flying people from the border around the country. it is not true. migrants who river almost always have to pay for their own transportation away from the border unless kind strangers donate. once they get to the cities they will go through the asylum process they are here legally and they have to get support from nonprofit organizations or the kindness of strangers or friends and others who already

live in the united states. host: there's a head line texas tune the governor of texas redirects $500 million to fund border security. what is yurtaykin the move the governor of texas is taking as a state including using law enforcement officials to enforce border regulations versus federal officials? guest: it is important to note that we don't really know what the effect of this has been on the border. the texas tribune and other organizations have done a number of investigations into the statistics the texas government is putting out about how effective this is and the claims the governor use are wildly inflated and when you talk to the actual national guard troops at the border a lot of them say all we do is sit twiddling our thumbs and starring into a camera while nothing happens.

so we have seen the governor of texas in previous administrations use the state national guard as a political show of force but there's in indication that texas is really making much of a difference at the border. if they were intending it work with the bidden administration they can help and offer their national guard troops to provide logistics that national guard troops played in the past but it seems that texas is trying to go its own way to unclear effect and often at the risk of depriving people of civil liberties. there are migrants arrested fortress pass held without being formally charged with a crime and that is unconstitutional. host: dove dominic -- we have dominic in knoxville, virginia. caller: my comment is they are running a clown show. he is as feckless as the

administration he works for. the gentleman you have speaking sounds more like an apologist and let me take exception to win thing he said that the wall is easy to cut through with a common saw. first of all you would need a battery. there's no electricity. you would have to want to carry that thing three, four, five hundred miles through the desert with the coyotes and you just said we spent hundreds of millions of dollars on everything else. what makes you think we can't stop someone coming through the wall. you are not believable at all. guest: the first thing i will note the border wall is not 300 it 400 miles into the desert it is in many places in the middle of maim urban environments and you can run an extension cord to the wall in a lot of places and a battery pack is purchasable at home depot.

these are official government statistics. it has been breached american 3,000 times in the last few years. that is three to for times a day and that is the breaches they know because they try to hide them. on the point of my oracle can. we have to look to two to into years ago and what they had to deal with. under the trump administration more than 500,000 families were by and large released into the united states and allowed to seek asylum as their right under law. no one said the trump administration had an open border policy because this is a complicated question and nuanced and differ issue that administrations democrat and republican have been struggling with for years. the idea that you can turn off migration with the push of a button or signing the right

policy into law is false. this is an enormously complicated issue because people leave and come to the united states because they believe in it country's promise and believe in the american dream and we can offer safety. until you destroy the view of the united states as a beacon of freedom people will keep coming. every administration the last century had to deal with this. the border patrol wasn't created until 1924 and arguably we didn't apprehend the majority of people crossing until 2012. host: aaron reichlin-melnick is senior policy counsel at the american immigration council. thanks for being with us. there is more ahead on the program. next we have an update on the russia-ukraine war as president biden considers to ask for more military and humanitarian aid. our guest is james dubik from the institute for the study of

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james dubik a senior fellow for the study of war to talk for the about the russian invasion of ukraine. general dubik, welcome it the "washington journal." tell us about the institute for the study of war. it should be obvious as to what it is but what do you study there specifically and what prompted you to go there? guest: when i retired i was wanting to continue to contribute to the national security arena and i was offered an opportunity to be a senior fellow there. this is a great institution that uses open source information to do analysis of initially iraq and afghanistan in the al qaeda war but now focused on also the ukraine war. we have analysts that listen in real time and in local languages to all the social media, we compare what we here on the social media with what is

reported by government and news media and combine it in a professional way to produce maps that you see all over the place and other intelligence products. host: one of your responsibilities as you record there in 2008 in iraq was the training of troops, iraqi troops. tell us about that. guest: i did that 14 months, responsible for training and i would say growth, not just in size but capability and confidence of the iraqi army, air force, navy, marines, police force and ministries of defense. it was a very difficult time, the surge of 2007 and 2008 and part of it was an increase of use of the iraqi security forces. so, the size and their ability was an important part of the surge in that time. host: what has been your impression of the capability and response of the ukrainian forces

and same of the russian forces? guest: ukrainian forces have been from the start surprisingly resistant. they have done a very good job tactically, very good job fighting. a good job in resilience and the russians surprisingly the opposite side of the coin. i think that everyone expected, myself included, much more proficient russian force than we have seen. on the battlefield they have not been aggressive, they have not conducted battles in what i would say is a very professionally coordinated way, nor have they had the right control structure before the invasion or the right logistic structure in place. all things that surprised us initially. host: is it a war that is largely being fought it seems, yeah there is ground action but it seems largely an artillery war.

there's a front passenger story in the "washington post" the influx of western artillery will reshape the war. guest: it will. but i think to kafrbgt of characteristic it as not a ground fight it is. the artillery will shape what happens on the ground and gives the crone force as little more depth. they won't have to fight just at the boynton of battle. income reach back and attack structures and attack reserve forces all of which reduce the ability of the russian force to apply combat power. host: do you think the russians are targeting just command and control? guest: absolutely not. the russians artillery use is different than what i described. they have used it in two ways. number one, to offset their

tactical improficiency. because their forces have been so poor at the point of battle they offset that with more artillery it provide more destruction. second, they have targeted intentionally civilian targets and humanitarian locations and targeted hospitals and this is a use of artillery and missiles an rockets for terror purposes, not legitimate military%. host: why do you think russian forces have performed so poorly? guest: i think there are a couple of things we have seen. number one, their units lack real confidence and cohesion at the point of battle. these are conscripts pulled together and not confident in themselves or their training or leaders. when you are not confident you don't fight as well. there were thrown in war, not -- some not told there were going to war. some expecting they would be welcome by the ukraine people

and found exactly the opposite. so that erodes your confidence in what your commanders tell you. when you start losing as they have, that is a third way confidence goes down. so you have all of these forces that are working against the russians and their ability to confidently display kpwt power. host: james james is with the institute of study of war and we are talking about the russia-ukraine conflict. and the alfonso are open and you can call us. has the war gone on longer than you thought? guest: no. when i first looked at the array of units before the,vacation -- >> russian units? guest: yes. i thought what is going on here?

where is their main effort? how are they going to control what appeared to be five or six or s access of -- actions of attack. i thought that it won't go well for them and it hasn't. after at the invaded we saw kiefer was the man effort. they came after kiefer and failed this and then had to withdraw. but they haven't fixed their control structure. they have not fixed the logistics or ability to use combined arms at the same time and their improficiency continues. host: some wrote the ultimate goal was the capture and control of the eastern region of the eastern part of ukraine. do you think that feels their ultimate goal? guest: not initially.

maybe it should have been but it was not. i think that the right term to use is conquer and subjugate ukraine. that was their ultimate goal and that remains putin's ultimate goal. plan a is to do that. seize kyiv replace the zelensky government and control ukraine in that way. he failed in doing that. he shifted to plan b. plan b is now to expand his hold on the east and expand his hold on the south, join those together and permanently partition ukraine and we will see if he is successful. my belief is he will revert to plan a and another attempt. host: you worked at night toe forces before. what are u.s. troops doing in places leak poland and romania? guest: first is the defense of the eastern flank because a

strong defense is a deterrent to putin's ability to widen the war conventionally. that is number one. number two, in training places i think that most of the activities are centered around two. one flow of logistics coming from nato countries, u.s. included, repackaging them and helping the ukrainians. then number it for new like the handoutsers they will do individual training on how to use that piece of equipment. host: so they are training those troops in poland or romania they go back it ukraine? guest: to train other ukrainians. host: how concerned with you be with our troops and other nato troops in the proximity for an errant strike causing a broader conflict in that region? guest: that is a risk, no doubt about that. but it is mitigated in a couple

of ways. first, the defense of nato i referred to is a mitigation. second, i don't know the exact location and if i did i wouldn't talk about them on the show but those locations are likely farther back from near the border. third, paoutd himself i think is a limiting factor. he knows that an errant around may or may not be viewed that and widening war is not to his advantage. he cannot even defeat ukraine. he knows he can't defeat nato. host: we go it darrell in idaho. >> general, i am looking at the world war one stats and 70 days in world war i 130,000 trenchmen killed, 120,000 germans killed. we have only got a couple more days to reach the 70 mark and

there is a scripture in revelation 12:9 satan has deceived the world so it seems like we are playing a game with ourselves and you look at the afghan not a year and in a war situation and you were a general having another nation feed arms to your troops or vice versa how long before you say you are declaring war on us so we have to retaliate. we are messing with big firestorm. guest: well, look, there's risk involved in war but i think we should start with number one. putin set the conditions for this war for weeks and months. then he intentionally invaded another country. this is a crime in international law. ukraine has the right to defend itself and according to international law other nations have the authority to assist another nation in its rival --

rightful self-defense. don't lose sight of that. you mentioned world war i. that is a perfect analogy. so feels world war ii. the aggression that started before world war ii all of the e countries could have stopped that war before it became as large as it did. we have the opportunity now. putin has no desire to stop. we should believe it. he wants to stop only when he is accomplished his objectives. he stuck to a taking action towards moldova and if you live in the baltic countries you would be worried about ukraine, moldova, the baltics. this is not just a local problem nor is it something the united states created. host: let's hear from kathleen on the democrats line in ohio. caller: thank you for taking my call.

i have been reading articles from a retired lieutenant colonel who is now a professor at boston university as well as gnome chomsky who i have deep respect for. i even heard general mccaffrey talk about nato being used as a caret stick to provoke russia, and again i understand he is a war criminal, i also believe bush and cheney are war criminals. when you talk about the provocation as a way to provoke and a want to encourage ohio voters to vote for john -- for governor for the democratic nominee. guest: nato expansion in the

90's is a complex issue. it is not simply nato expanded to the east. all of the former warsaw treaty organization countries, poland, the baltic countries, czechoslovakia, romania, these countries wanted to join nato when the soviet union and the warsaw treaty organization broke up. why did they do so? they knew sooner or later russia would return and they would want to return to make them vassals as they were during the cold war. it was in their self-interest that they connected to the west and sought connection to the west. so it is not a simple equation that nato moved east and that provoked putin. in fact part of the breakup of the soviet union with the power

struggle between nelson and gorbachev. gorbachev was the president of the soviet union and also wanted to replace him, he worked hard to make sure the soviet union broke up, gorbachev had nothing to lead and he would become the primary leader. it's a period of time in which nato expanded is much more complex then some are talking about right now. host: good morning. you are on with the general. caller: good morning sarah. -- good morning sir. you've said nothing about it. the whole world looks at palestine being occupied and being slaughtered and nobody said nothing.

knowing that the biggest concentration camp in the world is in palestine. made by israel and israeli soldiers. host: we will hear from our guest. guest: can russia pull ukraine apart. yes i think there's a possibility that's exactly what they are trying to do now. they want to move russian forces further west to take both the cash on the west -- on the eastern side of ukraine, they want to expand their southern hold all the way from odessa to the link up with the donbass to make ukraine a landlocked country. that's what they are trying to do now. personally i do not think they will be successful militarily

but that's what they are attempting to. and if they do they will have partitioned ukraine and they will be in a position to perhaps make that partition permanent. i think the second question i'm sorry i didn't quite get. host: in terms of israel and palestinian people and the situation there if you have any comment on that. guest: not with respect to ukraine. host: the headline, the u.s. wants russian military weekend. this is secretary -- the defense secretary in ukraine and poland last week with the secretary of state. he spoke about what he thought u.s. and nato forces needed to do. here is secretary austin. >> ukraine remain a sovereign country, a democratic country able to protect its sovereign territory. we want to see russia weaken to

a degree it can do the things it has done in invading ukraine. it's already lost a lot of military capabilities and a lot of its troops quite frankly. we want to see them not have the capability to very quickly reproduce. we want to see the community united especially nato and we are seeing that and that's on the hard work of president biden but also our allies and partners who are willingly into this with us as we propose sanctions and as we move very rapidly to demonstrate we will defend every inch. host: the general's comments about wanted to see the russian military weekend. is that a change in strategy or goals for the u.s. government? guest: i don't think so. the secretary is not talking

abut anything like regime change. all he's talking about is the follow on to the war. if ukraine is successful in defending itself and rejecting russian forces to their pre-february positions we may be able to be in a position to negotiate. at the same time what he at least to me is saying is ukraine fits in a larger picture which is a picture putin himself has talked about wanting to reestablish a greater russian glory by force if necessary. that's what the secretary i think is saying, that the united states and nato and other countries want to prevent. a weakened russia will not be able to pursue that kind of aggressive foreign policy beyond the ukraine. >> we will hear from juliet in

massachusetts. caller: thank you for having me today. for anyone out there listening it's a great synopsis of the daily briefing on what occurred. very clear understandable schematics of the land partitioning and where the troops are on both sides. the question is this. there is a russian word meaning little masquerade which is designed -- this is my theory, that putin never thought he would just conquer key have and put in a puppet regime and call it a day. i think when they were on the belarusian border was just a masquerade.

it was just to keep the enemy guessing. he thought it might be good to take kyiv. plan b is to get the land corridor all the way down to odessa and into moldova the. if he could achieve that goal that would be a wonderful strategic success for him. i just want to get your feedback and thank you so much for the call. host: if he does that to see a limit eight any black sea for ukraine? guest: thank you for the question. and that is like a deception. that could well have been. it's not a force he committed to ukraine suggests to me that it was not merely a deception plan, that it was in fact his first main effort and if he was successful, he had a plan b

which he is now executing. plan b is just as the caller described, let's connect eastern ukraine to southern ukraine to parts of moldova but russia already occupies and landlocked ukraine. this would be a severe economic stranglehold on the ukraine and if the ukraine government wanted to use the ports are now under russian control, that would be a way to strangle the economic life out of ukraine. host: are there troops in that portion of moldova? guest: there are some russian troops there yes. again, the maps and the daily briefs that they put out are available to everyone on the website. you can call up and get them every day. host: understandingwar.org is

the website. the democrats lined. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. i just wanted to also thank the general for his service to our country and thank him for fighting for our democracy. my question is i was watching another news channel this morning and noted speaker pelosi and a congressional delegation was in kyiv this morning and it was just breaking news. what is your opinion regarding her visit and the congressional delegations visit this morning and our support as she stated the united states stands with ukraine? guest: thank you for the call

and i appreciate your thanks for my service. i had a great time, a 37 years, four months and three days and enjoyed most every day anyway. the congressional delegation is an important tillich ration for a reasons. it shows continued support for ukraine following the secretaries of defense and state and more importantly its congressional allies and congressional years on the ground which are very important because congress is funding this war and they want to make sure what they are funding is going to the right place for the right reasons and they are spending arm tax money in ways that are responsible. the best way to do that is to go to the war zone, talk to the people using it, see it for yourself as they have done during my time in iraq and

multiple congressional delegations. i am glad speaker pelosi is going and taking the delegation with her. >> the speaker in the congressional colleagues until the fight is done is the quote on some of those photos. fred is up next in florida, republican line. host: good morning -- caller: good morning and thank you very much for taking my call. my first question is are you happy with finland and switzerland wanting to come in to nato even though putin is rattling his saber against them? my second question is are we becoming more like what happened in world war i and world war ii where we said we would not have boots on the ground and yet we

fed all of our armaments to these countries and within two years we were on the ground anyway? host: i think he means finland and sweden for nato. guest: i think finland and sweden have made the decision for themselves that their individual self interest lies with joining nato. putin really precipitated this by his illegal aggression in ukraine. those two countries would not have joined if putin had not played his hand the way he has. with respect to boots on the ground, yes prior to world war ii we gave the allies through primarily great britain and others equipment before we

entered the war and we entered later. we entered after pearl harbor and germany declared war on us. it wasn't like a sneaky way we would get involved in world war ii. there is some similarity but some dissimilarity in the current case. we are supplying, we the united states and nato legitimately providing equipment for the rightful self-defense of the country that has been invaded. it was no provocation in that. as no escalatory -- there is no escalatory nature we are acting on. boots on the ground will i think stay out of the war zone. as long as putin doesn't widen or escalate the war.

war is a contest between two people and one person does not control everything in the war. there are warring parties that end up mixing and matching and taking the war in a direction. right now if putin escalates either widening or escalating the war, the administration will have to make another policy decision. maybe it will be we will hold what we have and maybe it will be something else. host: a question on twitter. i have seen reports that police six russian generals have been killed by the ukrainians. how much of a strategic below is this. do you know if that's true? guest: i don't know about the number six, but some number above zero and pretty large. i think it is a blow. i would call an operational blow and that's the level of war that's conducting the major operations.

but it is also indicative of the inability of subordinate leaders to carry the war forward. when you have that many generals having to be at the front, having to be the point of battle to make sure things go well, it does not say much good about subordinate leaders. part of the russian way of war has been in proficient at the level and below. host: good -- caller: good morning, c-span and thank you for taking my call and thank you for your service general. i am more of a main street patriot than a wall street patriot. i think american foreign policy is largely determined by wall street oligarchs and not

necessarily for democracy but to protect wall street investments and that's why i really have -- i look at all of these things that are going on with a grain of salt. for example, i wanted to ask the general respectfully if he considers the war in iraq to be an internationally legitimate war and if so, why and i would like to see a negotiated settlement over there to end the conflict. russia has concerns about russian speaking people but i think ukrainians will want to keep their sovereignty. i would like to see a negotiated peace out in the open. host: we kind of lost you there. guest: grains of salt are always good in these kinds of a pet -- affairs and healthy skepticism is good. i share the callers desire to

end this with the negotiation. but the question is when is the time to have the negotiation? it is not a time when the ukrainian administration would have to negotiate away its territory and political sovereignty and right to self-determination. so my view is if the ukrainians could get to a point with our help of rejecting the russian forces to their pre-february positions, that would be a time where the allies might suggest now is a time to negotiate. in would not be in a position of strength, he would have what he held before february, the ukrainians would not have everything they wanted, all russians out but they would be in a position to hold their country together. and at that point the creative diplomacy would have a chance to get a relatively stable outcome. host: it seems to be the

negotiations or least media reporting on negotiations of ground to a halt. >> they have mostly because putin still thinks he can win so i negotiate. if negotiations started now, of the zelenskyy administration would be in a position of weakness having lost a large part of the territory and at risk of becoming a landlocked country. >> here is chris in indiana. democrats line. caller: good morning. what my questions is about natural resources that ukraine has such as lithium, they are one of the leaders in the world producers of that.

is putin looking at that? besides him wanting to take over the country. host: natural resources. guest: it's clearly one of the reasons he wants the east and the south. the natural resources of ukraine he would like to control. it is one of the reasons, not the only reason but certainly plays into it. host: is that the natural resource rich part of the country? guest: yes. host: duane, go ahead. caller: [indiscernible] host: every other word is breaking up. we are having a real breakup on

your call. you can try to call back in the last couple of minutes. we will go to charles in michigan on the independent line. caller: thank you. i watched president putin's annual year-end news conference on c-span and a lady reporter asked him a question about all of this and putin spent at least 15 minutes getting more and more , i guess angry as he answered questions and tried to explain how in his opinion the west was going into and trying to get more people into nato. my real question is when president trump had his news

conference with putin and said he believed putin over our intelligence agencies, do you think putin did the same thing with trump in his private conversations to cause trump to say this? guest: thank you. i have really no insight into what former president trump and putin said or didn't say together. your point again about nato wanting to get more and more members. why did poland, romania, the czech republic, slovakia, the baltic countries, why did they want to join nato? because they lived under the soviet union for decades and did not want to do it again. and now the prescience of their

ideas and their desires is coming true. all of them made from their standpoint the right choice in connecting more to the west and to the -- than to the east. this wasn't some evil plan by nato, their experience under the soviet union been better, maybe they wouldn't have wanted to join nato. putin's behavior and his illegal aggression in ukraine is not building many friends who now wants to turn east rather than west. host: gary is calling us from pacifica, california. caller: a quick request, please bring on the young turks. the democrats you have on our terrible. one question. zelenskyy keeps asking for fighter jets, airplanes.

does the west send these in order to win the war? >> the short answer is no. my belief is the numbers and types of drones nato has provided have given ukraine actually brought capability then jets would. at the same time we've given them spare parts and they've been able to generate more as the war goes on. so a combination of the spare parts and the drones i think has given capability to the ukrainians that they were seeking that could only be achieved prior to this. host: how the russians use their jets in this war? guest: not very well.

the air defense systems, the stingers we provided have held them at a high-altitude, though they are less effective. host: next up is illinois. chris, republican caller. caller: thank you for your service sir. my question goes to a little bit about the impact of the war so far because as you know, several million ukrainians have had to leave the country and even some russians may have had to leave russia when it comes to the war. the question really is what does the institute for war do with respect for studying how to prevent war and how could this war have been either stopped or the time that it's occurred reduced? guest: first i will answer the

impact. a huge economic impact not just in the region, but globally. there's also the impact of the physical destruction, the unnecessary physical destruction of ukrainian infrastructure, civilian infrastructure and the displaced people that have moved out of the war zone. this will all have to be reversed when the war is over. hopefully in a way that ukraine's political sovereignty and integrity are in place. reconstruction, returns of refugees, rebuilding of homes. all of this will have to take place and it will have to take place with a good bit of money coming from outside of ukraine because their economy is pretty much stopped. putin himself said he will not stop, he has already got mulled over in his sights, of baltics are next.

if we want to prevent a war, win this one. host: kentucky, go ahead. caller: thank you. i have a question regarding the mercenaries that have been reported that russia is using. is that something that ukraine could do, bring in other mercenaries like the black water group or something? thank you. host: we had an american killed fighting for one of those groups, correct? guest: my understanding of the foreign fighters in ukraine, there are two sets, one set has been incorporated into the ukrainian military as a foreign corps and so it fights not as mercenaries but part of the ukrainian military itself. the second are contractors that are helping train ukranians.

i don't know if black water is or anyone else is there. the one soldier who unfortunately -- marine who been killed was part of a contract group. i don't know what that contract was for, but certainly they were there for some legitimate purpose. as i have seen, ukraine has been fastidious in screening the kinds of foreign presence in their country. so i've not seen anything equivalent on the ukrainian side as you mentioned in the russian side. host: we will remind our viewers and listeners of the website with daily updates on the status of the war there. it's understandingwar.com. retired lieutenant general james dubik a senior fellow at the

institute for the study of war. thank you for being with us. guest: thank you. host: that will do it for the program this morning. we are back tomorrow at 7:00 eastern. we hope you are too. we hope you enjoy the rest of your sunday. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2022] ♪ >> c-span is yun unfilth ird view -- unfiltered view of government. including spark light. >> the greatest town on earth is the place you call home. at spark light, it's our home too. right now we are all facing our greatest challenge. that's why spark light is working round the clock to keep you connected. we are doing our part so it's a little easier to do yours.

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