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student loan forgiveness efforts with lindsey burke of the heritage foundation, then jared bass with the center for american progress. you can join the conversation by phone, facebook, and twitter. "washington journal" is next. ♪ >> good morning. it is friday, may 6 and we will kickoff today's "washington journal" with your thoughts on the rural/urban divide in this country. is it our political structure? the media? social media? or other reasons? how do you personally feel the impact of this divide? if you live in the urban part of the country, dial in at (202) 748-8000. if you are in suburban areas, (202) 748-8001. and if you are a rural resident, your line is (202) 748-8002.

you can also text us at (202) 748-8003. post your comments on facebook.com/c-span or send a tweet. we will wait for you to call in. while we do so, georgetown university held a conversation about this topic this week with former atlanta mayor keisha lance bottoms, democrat, and former south carolina republican trey gowdy. here is what the two of them had to say about the urban/rural divide. >> i think the biggest myth to understanding is we are not the enemy. we are not full of criminals and drug addicts and people who wish to wreak havoc on society. i base this upon the way that the city of atlanta is often

vilified in the state of georgia. we are a blue city in a red state, and it is often said there are atlantans, and there is the rest of georgia. but the reality is we care about all of the same things. we want to save communities. we want access to health care. we want to be able to send our kids to great schools. and i think we have much more in common than not. i think that is the biggest misconception, that cities are the enemy. and that we are takers and not givers. >> think there is this natural human nature and to an us versus them. often times, like we were in the green room, it is good-natured. there was a reference to somebody being from up north, somebody -- that somebody from

down south in a jocular way. that is not always good-natured, but i think we are kind of a little bit wired, you know, skins versus shirts. the second thing that popped into my mind is, the closer you are to an urban area, the more you get to see what your government can do. and what your tax dollars can do . the further removed you are from parks, maybe the less you understand why we need our tax dollars to go for a park. the further removed you are from major highway projects, maybe you question. i think the size and scope of government and how people view that. host: picking up on where the former congressman left off, why is there this urban/rural divide? we are getting your thoughts on that.

washington university did some research on this topic. this is what they published in 2020. the divide between us, urban/rural political differences rooted in geography. in terms of distance, their analyses show on average republicans 20 miles from a city while independence live 17 miles away and democrats live 12 miles away. the gap was a smaller among racial and ethnic groups and those who have higher education and higher income. among college degree holders, republicans lived 70 miles from the city, all democrats lived 10 miles from the city. hispanic republicans lived 10 miles from the city while democrats lived seven miles from the city. it was significant enough to be decisive in a closely-contested race. small towns have always leaned conservative. people living in rural areas tend to have traditional values and be resistant to new ideas,

said the researcher. in contrast, heavily populated cities have been more open to liberal ideas, more accommodating to unconventional behaviors and beliefs. citydwellers have a greater opportunity to interact with diverse people. there is also the ability to be anonymous, which encourages respect for people's privacy. one might come to the conclusion that people choose to live in urban or rural communities based on their values and political beliefs. research suggests a small share of movers consider political factors directly in their decision-making process. it's turned to timothy in crystal lake, illinois. an urban resident. what do you think because this divide? caller: i think that sums it up. if you are in a bigger population centers you are around more different kinds of people, you are around -- the

difference between poor and rich. if you are in a rural area most people seem on the same level. you don't see why you need government help. in a city you see homeless people who are begging by skyscrapers and fancy condos, and it gets you thinking, you know? you start thinking, we need some changes here. you get people with science backgrounds, or education. the concentration, there is more happening. sorry, i guess, life. i guess that is what i would say. host: what do you think the curious? how would you bridge the divide? caller: i think internet is a big thing. in the old days we did not have radio, we did not have tv. increasingly our elections are nationalized. people are more aware they are

in rural areas. or internet, more education, probably. host: mark in westwood, new jersey in the suburbs. good morning. what do you say? caller: good morning. i lived in the suburbs of new york city my whole life. i think the difference comes down to education. the pay very high taxes here, probably the highest in the country, but we have the best schools. in the rural areas all they care about, it seems, politically, is, don't raise my taxes. they elect politicians who don't raise taxes so there is no money to pay for good schools and different services. it is a race to the bottom, in my view. just being able to keep as many guns as you want and not having great schools is a recipe for

disaster, and i think that is what this country is going toward. if you look at every big city, they are always blue and they always fund education well, or most of the time. i may be in a bubble going up near new york city, but what i see in the rural areas of this country, the movement to support trump, i think it is really troubling. i think the united states is going into a fascist government, almost, and i am really hoping we can do something and the republican party stops its craziness. host: let's hear from a rural resident. cornell from new jersey. go ahead. caller: good morning, greta. happy mother's day. the problem is redlining. redlining and desegregation.

before desegregation and the urban communities you had your doctors, your lawyers, your people of higher learning was next-door to your sanitation worker, your labor, but redlining was a big factor also. you could have the same credit score even in certain areas today, and because of redlining you are not allowed to move in certain communities. so, systematic racism is the root of the problem. but you live next door to the lawyers and doctors, they kept the community up. it was more family-oriented.

but even though segregation was a crime, but in other areas segregation kind of destroyed our community. host: cornell, i want to get your reaction to this piece in npr. americans are fleeing to places where political views match their own. the national real estate brokerage estimated that in 2022 people will vote with their feet . it has actually been happening for some time. residents have been fleeing states like california, with expensive taxes and mask mandates, and heading to conservative strongholds. more than one of every 10 people moving to texas during the pandemic was from california, according to the texas real estate research center. most came from southern california. florida was the second-biggest contributor of new texans. cornell? caller: well, people are fleeing

because of fear, but the bottom line is, there would not be no fear if we did not have the electoral college. it would not be no fear. one man, one vote, and also all of the voting laws put in place to, kind of, well the vote. the reason why you had the most people voting in the last election -- it was not because the election was rigged. it was because it was easier for people to vote. people did not have to wait seven and eight hours in line to vote. even now the republicans cannot win an election, have not won the popular vote since i can remember. host: so you blame the electoral

college? caller: no doubt. host: ok. you're breaking up a little bit so i'm going to move on to glenn in lakeland, florida. you're in an urban area. the urban/rural divide, what causes it and how does it impact you? caller: he was the thing. the divide has always been a divide. there has never been any unity at all between white and black people. that is something that has been going on since this nation was founded. you talk about the politics, you talk about voting and where you live. it is all about white people and black people, and white people don't like black people. and white people are racist toward like people. host: all white people across the board? caller: no, and here is why i say that. when you look at the way that white people are racist toward black folk, white people do not support black people and they

don't do anything to help. we have changes over the years. we have had 400 years of slavery, we have had 100 years of jim crowe, we're have had no equality, there is no attempt to make it work. the reason why black people live in urban areas is because when slavery ended and during the jim crow era and went from being sharecroppers working in the field to get the good jobs in the north. that is why they populated those areas where black people live. but at the same time systemic racism is still there. my concern has been this. if white people cannot look at themselves and say, we are racist and we have to figure out our problem. like people cannot solve a racist white person's problem. host: glenna, you think this should be a black/white divide, not an urban/rural divide? caller: white people need to

look at themselves, because think about how racist white people have been over the centuries toward like people. like people did not harm white people, it is the other way around. every time a black community makes progress, they try to impede the progress. host: glenn in lakeland. i want to show you a discussion with the former atlanta mayor and the former republican congressman. they both offer suggestions on how this divide can be bridged. >> we all want health care. quality health care. we want quality education. you want to save communities. -- safe communities. we are there on what we want, how we get there together, i think, is the bigger question. we agree on a lot. i just don't think we message it

. >> i would say having a justice system that is numbly respected but worthy of our respect. proportional, just, fair in the eyes of all parts of the american family. but part of that is, i'm insulated from a little bit of criticism, because none of my critics have put anybody in jail. i know what it is like. i know what our justice system should be like. there is, i think, -- granted this is not the best atmosphere to be talking about criminal justice reform, because you start with this precept. do you believe in proportionality? do you believe in fairness? do you believe in that lady blindfolded holding a set of scales? i don't think anybody no matter where they live is going to say no. you have agreement on a broad -- you mention health care. i don't know anyone who thinks you should be denied health care

based on your ability to pay. i would hope not. i would hope there is no constituency for letting people die. if you can get consensus on that broad issue, then you can be guilt -- begin to build consensus on how we get there, i just -- you know, in this environment do not talk about health care or the justice system. want to go to those issues we disagree on and are probably not going to solve, because that is better for politics, it is better for fundraising, and it is probably better for media. >> i want to add too -- two more things. you mentioned criminal justice reform. a lot of our criminal justice reform in georgia came from nathan deal, republican governor. we had folder registration in georgia. you transfer your license, you can register to vote 800,000

voters put on the voter rolls. it came from nathan deal's policy. again, there are those issues that are important to all of us. there is commonality there. host: is that the answer to the rural/urban divide? what you heard from those two politicians? is it public policy and finding common ground? that is our conversation this morning. we will hear from barbara next in oregon. an urban area. go ahead. caller: yes, thank you, greta, and good morning, america. i appreciate this call. i'm surprised i got through. i want to say that i live in a rural area, and i don't see a divide. i am not republican hard-core, i am not a democrat lefty. i am a to love the line, and i believe that if we come together

as people, as human beings and treat each other with kindness and love that it is going to make all the difference in the world. i grew up and my mother was a liberal. i have not been a very diverse community, but i open to it. i asked my mom and dad, they came from northwest arkansas. they said they shut the place down at night, that black people could not be out after 6:00 p.m. at night, and i felt shame for that. you know, i just don't understand. but i'm hoping that our higher power will teach us to do better and be good, and we will come together as in a. host: barbara, tell me where you see there is common sense or

common ground for america on public policy issues. what do you think makes sense to you on these big issues? caller: on the big issues? i think every human being deserves the right to food, to housing, medical care. all of the basics. i believe in teaching and education. i believe you give a child something to learn. i worked at a daycare which taught the student that you take their natural abilities, then they can strive for what they want to be in the future, and no discrimination. that is why i try to look for people who do good for our world. host: delaware, in the urban areas of delaware. go ahead. caller: yes, first of all i am

very resentful of that gentleman i called in about white people being racist. yes, they are, but that is not all of them. the quakers, who were white, helped slaves escape. number one. number two, there were lights that marched in the 1960's with the blacks and got hosed and bitten by dogs. number three, blacks are racist also. amongst their own. host: margie, lets it stick to the conversation, though. his point was that that is why we have this urban/rural divide. in the urban areas you have a larger african-american minority population, and in rural areas it is largely white. and that separation, there are reasons why those two groups of people have migrated to those

areas. talk about that, margie. caller: right now i can't, because i get very angry and blacks say only whites are racist. host: we will move on then. robert in frostburg, maryland. morning to you. the rural area of maryland. caller: greta, good morning. how are you doing? host: good morning. caller: i am a vietnam veteran. i am 79 years old. some horrible lessons i have learned during my lifetime, just blows my mind away. our country is very racist. the japanese were placed in concentration camps during world war ii. everything was taken from them. the indians, the trail of tears, were marched across the united states. i have to stop crying.

what i have learned in 95 years] host: robert, let me jump in. is this why you believe there is an urban/rural divide? caller: ma'am, the whole thing is white racism is a fact. and for people who don't know anything about being victimized by it, you know, there are some good white people out here. there ain't no doubt about it. white racism has devastated this earth. host: ok. i have heard the point. this is from pew research,

talking about this conversation this morning. the hind biden's 2020 victory. an examination of the electorate based on validated voters. when it came to geography this is what they found. the political split between rural and urban locales remains substantial in 2020. biden did better among suburban voters then contended in 2016. i contrast, president trump garnered t voters, including 71f white rural voters. the latter represented an increase among 2016. aydin received a solid majority of votes among urban residents. 66% overall. president trump gained among urbanites relative to his performance in 2016. 33% in 2020.

munro in clinton, maryland, in the suburbs. go ahead. caller: good morning, c-span, and c-span viewers. i'm going to do the best i can, unlike many of the other collars, to actually answer your question. host: thank you. [laughter] caller: here is what i do believe is the most pragmatic answer to your question about the urban/rural divide, and it is term limits. if we had term limits for these southerners and people in congress. the highest office in our land has a term limit, you know? your city council and county council members have term limits. congress does not have term limits. if we get term limits this will solve a lot of the problems, because it is all about power.

there are people in power, they stay in power, whether it is nancy pelosi or mitch mcconnell, look at how long these people have been in office. you get term limits, then you can start getting real policy changes, because you get people with fresh ideas that want to do something for the greater nation and also for their communities, but they can't do it because you have this entrenched division in our congress. it term limits, these people would be gone and we will not have this urban/rural divide to the degree we do, because we do have more in, then we have different. host: where is the common ground? caller: oh, it is in the preamble of the constitution, to provide for the general welfare. i think one of the other issues, there are a lot of people who have never traveled outside of the united states, and they have no idea what we have access to.

the divide is an illusion. you hear me? it is an illusion. we don't have the divide a lot of these people are calling up, especially -- and forgive me for saying this -- yes, i am black. you have a lot of racist black people out there. the fight -- the divide is an illusion. yes, there have been atrocities, but today you can have and be whatever you want, which is why you have so many people from other countries coming to this country. and there are dark-skinned people and brown people and white people from nations all over the planet that come here. people need to travel outside of the country, see the difference between america and somewhere else, then come back and live. host: got it. anthony, sierra vista, arizona. a rural part of the country. go ahead. caller: hey, greta. good morning to everyone.

i want to do a quick shout out to the garrison just elected as the garrison of the year. proud of that, proud of my mom and dad were here in 1954. host: all right. let's get to the question. caller: here is the question. it is actually in this quote i have written. listen for keywords. critical analysis is essential to situational awareness, the lifeblood of all communities. there are some keywords there, greta. critical analysis. we don't teach our children this. we don't know how to develop it as we grow older. the situational awareness leads

us to understand that communities only grow through having individuals, whether they are in urban, suburban, rural. as a retired military member i have lived in all of these communities. host: all right, so, retired military. how has this rural/urban divide impacted you? have you felt it through the years moving in and out of these different areas? caller: yes. here is one of the unique things about it. i'm living in a rural area, and i love it. and here is why. i have traveled all over the world, so one of the things i

have learned is, i can export myself to a suburban environment. i can export myself to an urban environment. the one i want to feel like i am living and enjoying my life, guess where i want to live? in all -- in a rural environment, because i lived -- i grew up behind a plow. host: so you are most at home in rural america? caller: without a doubt. i love being able to go from one side of a town to another side of a town in 10 minutes. [laughter] host: ok. anthony in arizona. back to the conversation at georgetown university. they talked about the economic drivers behind this divide. listen to the former democratic mayor of atlanta, keisha lance bottoms, and former congressman trey gowdy.

>> there are rural voters that drive to the cities for jobs because manufacturing jobs have left. we have moved to a service-based economy. i think that my -- may wind up being the best hope for curing the divide. the more time you spend around people not like yourself the more appreciation you have for them. the interstates in my state, if the interstate passed you by when they were building the interstate, those communities are dead. they are just gone. so, it is not us versus them, it is a consequence of the laws of manufacturing. it is a consequence of where we put the interstate systems. if you think your life is not going well, you can look at yourself or you can blame an exterior force. i think the temptation is to sometimes want to blame an

exterior force. >> i will give you another example. affordable housing. when i went over to the state legislator -- legislature to talk about my agenda, i would talk about affordable housing. i would meet with republican leaders, mostly from rural communities, i thought they would not want to hear about atlantis affordable housing issues. i was dead wrong. i assumed they would not want to hear about it, but they were very interested. one, because they all had to come into the city during the session, so they were looking for housing. secondly, just what you mentioned. their kids and grandkids were moving into the city, so housing was an issue. there were people even from the metropolitan area, the second-grade teacher who could not afford to live in the city.

she was driving an hour. all of these reasons made people care, but i could have stopped in my office and just said, they don't want to hear about this, they don't care about affordable housing, i'm not going to bring it up. but i did, and it was a productive conversation. often times we have to get out of our own way in aching assumptions about what people care about. it may not be for the same reasons i care, but often times there is much more commonality than we often give people credit for. host: from georgetown university. i want you all to think about that and get your reaction to what you just heard there on the economic drivers. perhaps that is why you think there is an urban/rural divide. there are the lines on your screen. we have divided them. we will go to kelvin in maryland.

hi, kelvin. caller: yes, can you hear me? host: we can. go ahead. caller: thank you. first time caller, and i am an avid c-span watcher. and of the things i see -- i am a veteran of the united states navy and i have been able to travel around the world, around our country. the divide, i believe, comes from us as people not, you know, -- there is groups of people i know have never been out of the urban community. groups of people that have never been out of there rural areas -- their rural areas. if they had the opportunity to mingle with people in the cities or mingle with people in the country, i think they will find out that we have more in common than the fear that, you know, i have to go into the city to get a job.

i really boils down the divide as an economical issue today. that is why people, the organizations that william j barber talks about in the poor people's campaign, that is why you have such a movement with that organization among all people, and he crosses all urban, suburban, and rural areas. and it crosses all races, because people feel the strain going on in our economy and with the pandemic. so it is easier for us to, instead of trying to come together, it is easier for me just to stay in my camp and point the finger. so, getting out of our camps and getting to know people. i think, for me, that was the greatest teacher. for me to go in the military and

meet people who were different. host: does it help if you are in a suburban or rural area and you have to drive into a city for your job, because then you are exposed to people outside of your own community? caller: absolutely. i think that is what i do. i live in the county, but i go into the city. host: which city do you going to? caller: i going to baltimore. and some of the fear that people talk about in -- you know, if you live in a rural area, if you have never been in an urban community, people tell you it is violent. yeah, but i went to johns hopkins hospital, and i'm pretty sure that everybody in the state of maryland at some point comes into the city to go through those hospitals. there it is hopkins or university.

so, by them coming they get a different perspective, and i think if we could do that more as a community of people, i think that would lessen the divide. just personal experience. that is all i have for you, greta. i love what you do with this commentary, and keep on doing it -- doing it. host: pensacola florida -- pensacola, florida, mary. you are in an urban area. a large city in florida? caller: pretty large. good morning. host: good morning. what do you think causes this divide and how does it impact you? caller: it impacts me because it is not the problem that is a black-and-white thing. it is power and money. money separates people because they want to live better than the other person. and you feel you are better than the other person, he looked down on the other person.

you are saying that, i have more than you have. that separates us by saying it is white and black. it is not white and black, it is people. we divide what we have so we make another person feel less than you are, because we don't divide what we have. everybody can live good if we only share, and divide what we have and don't have. host: is there a need to be a more even playing field? caller: that's right. it needs to be a more even playing field where i can feel i have contributed as much is you have to this world. and it makes me feel better when i can say that i can donate, that i can give back to what i have, and people don't do that. we look at people and say, she is prejudiced because she is white or whatever. it is not that. it is, i have more than you have, and it is about greed, and

i can look down at say, i've got more than you have. host: and not wanting to give it up? caller: not wanting to give it up. host: ok. caller: if i have a neighbor next door that does not have food and i have food, i should share that food. i should make them feel like, you don't need to be hungry with me having a basket full of food and you don't have any. that is what this world is all about. if we could share and understand and love one another we wouldn't have the problem of saying what caller we are. it doesn't make any difference when you bleed like i do. host: cairo, missouri. jim, it is your term -- turn. caller: good morning. i was born in new jersey. i lifted there, i lived -- i live today are, i lived in florida, now i am miles out of the town of 700 people.

i have actually thought about the situation prior to this conversation, and my conclusion is an echo chamber that goes back for generations. people probably live on farms that their families have live -- have owned for 100 years. and he never moved any further. you have probably never seen over the horizon. i know many people who have never been out of the state. going to church, going to school, same people all of your life. you hear the same message that your daddy was taught, your granddaddy was taught, and what i see, the people with intelligence and imagination move out of the area. the smartest ones get out, because there is no jobs here were they -- worth a darn.

host: as the internet helped people -- has the internet helped people understand different perspectives outside of their communities? you can go on facebook, on instagram, on these social media platforms. as it helped or hurt? -- has it helped or hurt? caller: since you can find your personal ideology on facebook, twitter, or whatever, you can still find that divide, you can still find your peanut gallery to join. i do not see any solution to this. except, perhaps instead of states, the vote should be proportionate, not divided up. there is this circle we have this many people and they vote

this way, so, that is my heretical theory. host: rh, jim. cj in any apple is. -- acj in minneapolis. caller: good morning. thank you for letting me get in on this conversation. you have too many gun owners with no heart. too many families with no discipline. and too many courtrooms with no justice. that is what is wrong with america, and that is across-the-board. a lot of times you see people that have the power making a crucial mistake when they call other people names, like illegal aliens, and they overlook the needs of what the native american people are asking for and downplay it. when they are talking about these lines on their land, the native american people are in

harmony with mother earth. when you start putting people in power who only care about money and what they can make off the land, and they discount the fact that it is going to harm all of the other communities around it, that is the reason why we have so many problems today, because of the leadership. whenever you see the president's approval rating being shown as good or bad, they never show the other side where these senator'' approval ratings should be right next to the president's. you will -- you only show one side and you have to go through three channels to get the picture. host: you blame the media? caller: well, i don't blame the media. i'm saying the media is complicit. because they are not doing the proper job they are supposed to be doing, but they're trying to act like they are, and they tell you this is the truth.

i have to listen to three or four different radio stations to get the whole picture. host: cj in annapolis. -- minneapolis. remember, you can also text us. first name, city, and state. you can post to facebook and send us tweets. i want to update you on the latest in washington on the leaked draft opinion from the supreme court i could, if finalized, overturn roe v. wade. democrats next week are planning a test vote to codify roe v. wade. here is the headline. democrats plan bid to codify abortion rights, but lacked the votes to win. they do not have the 60 votes to win this vote. here is chuck schumer talking about next week's vote. >> all week we have seen republicans try to dodge the responsibility for bringing roe

to the brink of repeal. this is about to change. next week the u.s. senate is going to vote on legislation to codify a woman's right to seek an abortion into federal law. i intend to file cloture on this monday. which would set up a vote for wednesday. republicans will have two choices. they can only destruction of women's rights, or they can reverse course and work to prevent the damage. count me as a skeptical they will do the latter. republicans have been on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of america. a poll released today showed voters want roe to stay the law of the land by a two to one margin. 35% of republicans believe we should keep roe in place.

next week's vote will be one of the most important we take in this century. host: chuck schumer of new york. from the other side of the aisle, republican senator john cornyn of texas on this potential supreme court decision. >> the supreme court is the branch that is meant to operate free from public or political pressure. as chief justice roberts said, justices know that criticism comes with the territory. it is a free country. people can express themselves, within limits, but threatening statements, he said, of this sort, from the highest levels of government, are not only inappropriate, they are dangerous. chief justice roberts is right. and subsequent events have shown threats against the justices are not going away, and are becoming more intense.

we need to take steps to improve the protection of the justices and their family against potential violence. and it cannot wait until something bad happens. some political activists have already announced their intentions to go to the private homes of the justices. this is an appalling violation of their personal privacy and puts them and their families at risk. we currently have two justices with school-aged children. once judge jackson joins the court, that will be three. the chief justice has asked congress to take appropriate action and increase protection for the physical safety of the justices and their families, and we need to act, and act with urgency. host: senator john cornyn, republican of texas, and a fence

has gone up around the supreme court in washington, d.c. more of that debate happening next week here in washington. right now our conversation is about the urban/rural divide and what causes it. maryland. good morning to you. go ahead. caller: good morning. i have lived in every portion of the subject topic for today, and i believe the primary issue is economic, initially. when you live in the city, an urban area, any times you do not have opportunities for jobs that would provide you with possibility and the reality of staying in a place where your money will not support you. property values and the properties you want to live in,

even if they are apartments, sometimes cannot be supported by where you are economically. so you move to the suburbs, where you can perhaps get a better opportunity for a living arrangement, but then you have the problem where you have to go into the urban area to have a job, so you can support yourself living in the suburban area. in the rural area, much they had in terms of development and support in terms of providing agricultural support, sometimes taxes support, and a place where you could just have a period of time to just relax. those areas are now being stated by so-called development, and people, the power structure

taking away control of what the rural people have in terms of ownership and the pride of being an agricultural society, and maybe even a little bit more elderly or traditional group of so-called americans, whether they be any ethnic group. those rights are basically being removed by development, and so as a consequence you have a conundrum as to, how do you get all three of those people, all three of those groups to work together? the reality is, unless you start talking to each other and trying to resolve each and every problem each individual group has, there may not ever be a full solution or resolution to

the difference between those three areas. and it starts with conversation and lack of politicization. not the differences, but the problems each individual group has. host: ok. in clarksburg, west virginia, and -- ed. how would you describe clarksburg? caller: clarksburg, west virginia, in 1948 was the fourth largest city in west virginia. it is now the 11th-largest city in west virginia. we lose a congressman this year. we are losing that many people. we lost another congressman. host: so, what is happening? caller: i have never had a job in my life. i'm 87 years old and i am blind.

i have never had a job in my life that paid more than three dollars an hour. i live in an -- a subsidized apartment. my rent is $350 a month. i live below the poverty line. i see all of this whining and crying, and i have never gone out and protested in anybody's face. i have seen the democratic head of the senate get on there and say that the republicans that all voted against the law of the land -- host: ed, can you stick to this urban/rural divide? because you are describing it, you are population in clarksburg

dwindling over the decades. what happened? where did people go? caller: there was 15 of us boys on the hill. they went anywhere from texas, to my brother to illinois, my sister to michigan. one of my best friends, detroit. three of them went to iowa. host: and why? caller: to get a job. host: for jobs. ok. i'm going to move on to alex. a reminder, and it is your turn, talk and listen through your phone. turn down the television. alex, good morning g. caller: good morning to you too. it is also interesting there is a lot of maryland callers, because i think the urban/rural divide is strongly felt here in the dmv. i wanted to say that my first year of college was in 2014 and

i was living in the baltimore area. that was the spring of 2015, was the killing of freddie gray. i grew up in a relatively small town in new jersey, and all of the media coverage happening in baltimore city at the time around the riots and uprisings in baltimore city, i was getting calls from all of my predominantly-white friends and family in new jersey saying, are you ok? are you safe? everything looks crazy down there. i was telling them, you know, it is not what you think, right? in the cities. i think there is this huge misconception that cities are just these war zones of crime and violence. i think it speaks to just the fact that a lot of people from the suburbs and rural areas, you

know, i think what a lot of callers have been saying is that they have never been here. they have these perceptions from what the media has shown them of fillings on fire and people being shot in the street, and that is an issue, that is not all there is in urban areas. i think the solution to this issue might be able to come from the media, in showing all of the actually amazing work going on in trying to improve our schools , improve people's living conditions, beautifying neighborhoods, and the things going on in cities that are positive. then you would not have the cycle of people thinking the cities are horrible places. maybe we would have more people coming in to visit and going to see the culture in the city, and maybe people would be more encouraged from the city to go out into the rural areas where there is fresher food and nature and things that are good for the spirit and mind. i think the media has a lot to

do with it. host: anthony, district heights, maryland. what do you think? caller: how are you doing? very nice topic here. yes, i believe that the divide basically comes from the unequal justice and equality. as we look at the past and future, people have had unlivable wages, employment, even if it is in the city or if it is in a suburban area. and people cannot divide with an unlivable wage. they lose confidence and the will to live, because it is so difficult when a person can't pay their way, can't pay the rent. fear when they go to work that

they are going to get a ticket or they can't do this, or they can't do that. it is a fear that society has installed in us, because of the injustice and inequality. so, to fix this we need to look at the core, look at people's, their way of life and how we can fix it. you know, we look at the job situation. you know, we used to have eight hour jobs and benefits, and now we have six hour jobs, or four-hour jobs, with no benefits or no union. these are the things that support america. and the constitution speaks about equal justice. equality. and a lot of people have not experienced that. and people want to stay in their own area, where it is safe.

because when you go out you have to have money. you can't go across the city and enjoy yourself or do anything without a sufficient amount of money. and to come back home. host: anthony, what do you do for living, what did you do for a living? caller: i used to work for the school system. i started a janitorial business in 1993, and i still operate it. that is what i have done. i have been up and down. i have been on the high side where i made plenty of money, and i have been on the low side with the economy. but it is a lot of things we have to look at. you know, even right now with the rights of the people.

i'm studying the constitution a lot and reading a lot about the constitution and, like i said, the inequality is unfair. host: let me move on. donna is waiting in vero beach, florida. good morning. caller: good morning, greta. i am a 73-year-old lady, but i lived in new york, grew up in new york on long island. my great-grandparents lived in a brownstone in the city. my grandparents lived in the suburbs in garden city, then moved further and further out on long island to where we lived in riverhead. well, every weekend we did not have superhighways like we have today. they were mostly two-lane roads. every weekend the city would migrate to long island for

recreation, for rest, for regrouping from living in the city. and i don't think there is any real big distinction between urban down to rural, but they come down the road like hours and hours of cars, bumper-to-bumper, and the same going back on sunday. it was a lifestyle. they wanted to enjoy long island, the rural area of our state, new york. i don't see that there should be that big of a differential between urban and rural. we don't have to drive to a big city for a job today. like they did back then. but they still wanted to get away from it. host: ann, in york,

pennsylvania. we will end with you but returned to the conversation later on. caller: hi, greta. good morning. 13 f the 19 congressional seats went to republicans although we are a 50-50 state. in florida, desantis has eliminated a number of congressional districts that had favored black or hispanic candidates. we are not talking to each other. here in pennsylvania, we are inundated with ads between dr. oz in mccormick where they are holding a gun and appealing to extreme voters in the primary. that leads over into congress. we don't talk to each other anymore.

that to me is the source. when these laws went to the supreme court, the supreme court said they can't do anything about it. thank you greta. we will come back to this conversation about the urban/rural divide. maybe we will get more folks on the west coast. coming up next, we will talk about student loan debt. we will talk to lindsey burke. we will be right back. american history tv saturdays on

c-span2. exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 2:00 p.m. eastern general jeffrey frank talks about henry truman. the extraordinary presidency of an ordinary man. on 8:00 p.m.. a college professor teaches the class about the mexican-american war in the 1840's. the author of manifest destiny. exploring the american story, watch american history tv saturday on c-span2. find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime on c-span.org/history.

sunday, on q&a a discussion about the life and career of first lady jill biden with associated press darlene super bill co-author of jill, a biography of the first lady. she talks about dr. biden's involvement in joe biden's political career, her role as a teacher and gives insight into her personality. she took a trip, on the flight home back to washington dc, she left her seat, disappeared for a while and then out came a woman dressed like a flight attendant in a wake and passed out ice cream bars. no one on the plane recognized her. i am not sure how the staff knew she was missing from her seat.

that is one example of the kind of plaque -- practical jokes she likes to play. you can listen to q&a and all of our podcasts on our free c-span app. there are a lot of places to get political information but only on c-span do you get it straight from the source. the matter where you are from or where you have been on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if it happens here, or here, or here or anywhere that matters, america is watching on c-span powered by cable. washington journal continues.

joining us this morning is lindsey burke with the heritage foundation. she is here to talk about student loan forgiveness. democrats are pushing for debt relief. where do you stand on this issue? many individuals made a conscious decision not to go to college to forgive dead. so forgiveness, any amount of forgiveness would foist someone else's debt onto those individuals who made the decision not to attend college. student debt forgiveness would encourage colleges to raise tuition especially if students expect colleges to forgive tuition in the future.

most borrowers, their payments are a manageable portion of their income. there are programs currently that where we see large debt balances, with graduate students. doctors and lawyers, they are likely to be high income earners in the future. it is unfair, regressive and expensive to ask those lower bernie -- earners to pay off others degree especially if they can pay it off in the future. if you have student loans (202) 748-8000 if you have paid them

off (202) 748-8001 all others (202) 748-8002. pramila jayapal is on msnbc and talking about why she is pushing to cancel all student debt. >> here is how i think about it, when i ran for congress in 2016, student debt was at 1.3 trillion. today, student debt is at 1.9 trillion. a lot of this money is money that the federal government makes and that these debt collectors make on interest rates that are higher than we actually need to be charging. if you look at the whole issue, why would we work against ourselves? it is our objective to get as many people as educated as

possible and get them into jobs where they could support themselves and their families. this all shows that as much debt as we can cancel, is going to stimulate the economy. if we were to cancel all of the debt that is out there, we would raise the wealth of black families by 40%. this is a racial justice issue as well. host: lindsey burke respond to her argument on the economy and its impact. guest: it will not stimulate the economy, it will throw fuel on this inflationary fire that we see spreading across the country right now. it is important to remember, to cancel student loans, the debt does not just go away. it is shifted over to the

taxpayers to pay off. the federal government of that 1.7 trillion, the federal taxpayer holds the bulk of that debt. if congress or the bidens administration tries to forgive that outstanding balance it means that the taxpayers pick up that. it is still the case today that two thirds of taxpayers don't hold bachelor's degrees. they are likely to earn less then the event a -- individuals who hold a bachelors degree. it is regressive, there have been studies looking to the regress 70 of forgiveness. the new york fed says that

forgiveness benefits up her income earners. the brookings institution found that one third of all student debt is owed by the 20% wealthiest households. forgiveness is 50,000 per borrower. it would cost 904 billion. it would be orders of magnitude more expensive. if it was 10,000 per dollar -- barware, it would still be 310 billion.

host: 92% of that debt is owed to the federal government. 11% of loans were 90 days or more overdue or in default over the pandemic. an average monthly payment was $300 before the payment moratorium during covid. john in asheville, north carolina. caller: i graduated in 2004 and i just finished paying off my student loans with the help of student loan forgiveness. she mentioned that two thirds of people don't have ashlar's

degrees and that is a circular argument. the reason they don't have bachelors degrees is because college is expensive. in terms of the tax burden, it is a matter of priorities. taxpayers are supporting other agendas and initiatives, i think it would be fair for taxpayers to support each other in getting a higher education. host: what are you doing with the extra money in your wallet now that the loans have been forgiven? caller: i am trying to save it. i have been in public service and i have never made a whole lot of money. and now i have an extra $200 a month to say. guest: speaking of circular arguments, if college is worth it, you should not need student loan forgiveness.

the degree would pay for itself. if it is not worth it you should not ask the taxpayer to pick up the tap. b. the federal government has been paying a tremendous amount of money on higher education and as a result it has increased the price, this is the bennett hypothesis, the more the federal government spends on college the more college will increase tuition and that is what we have seen over time. if we care about driving down the cost of college so more people who want to get education

can do so. host: is that the only way to bring down the cost? what are some other proposals? guest: one of the most important ways to limit the amount of subsidies out there. those subsidies would include subsidized interest. the low interest rate on college loans is that taxpayers subsidize the interest rate. we need to ratchet down the amount of money that washington puts into higher education every year. accreditation reform, decoupling loans from the accreditation system. to enable individuals to pursue

college and take individual courses. to craft a higher education experience that will prepare them to enter the workforce without incurring debt. host: do you have student loan debt? tell us your experience. caller: i am one of those who has a significant amount of student loan debt. i have no problem paying back my debt. what bothers me about this issue is that we as a country, we spend trillions of dollars on things that are less important. we spend on wall street's bad decision-making. but we will not take care of our own people when we needed the most. i don't understand that part of

the issue. i am part of the elimination of part of the debt especially for people who cannot afford to pay. guest: i would say we have to be careful for debt elimination. the debt does not just disappear. when you say elimination, that means that the taxpayer is paying the tab. there are some outstanding questions that have not been answered. if student debt is forgiven now what happens moving forward? students will still be borrowing to attend college and then they will be borrowing with the expectation that their loans will also be forgiven.

what does that mean for the borrower? they are going to take out the maximum amount of loans that they can. they will attend the most expensive college they can get into. they will increase the amount of debt thinking it will be forgiven in the future. a lot of unintended consequences that i don't think the administration has thought through moving forward. host: gary in newport, kentucky. caller: america needs workers. so what about an apprentice program so instead of college they go to work for a company and then they pay back student loans so they can work out

something that way instead of the taxpayer? guest: this is an important point. there are many ways to climb the ladder of upward mobility. we put a lot of money into one particular route which is higher education. by and large, high school college go to a four year break and mortar college to climb that ladder of upward mobility. that mean not be the best path. there are options out there. and apprentice programs hold promise.

no other segment in society is getting this type of special treatment more than two years after covid hit. this pauses causing taxpayers money. the department of education estimates that every single month they are losing 2 billion in repayments and 5 million and accrued interest. the taxpayers are having to pick up the tab four. there are individuals have been making payments while the pauses in effect. that represents hundreds of thousands of borrowers across the country. many individuals have been able to pay off during the pause because the interest was not accruing. they were able to make more significant payments on their principal. we are now hearing that the biden administration wants to pursue student loan forgiveness which means that after working

so hard to repay their own loans they will have to assume payments for other people's loans. this policy is unfair, regressive and expensive. apprentice programs, we need to think about accreditation reform so that we are not subsidizing one particular route which is traditional higher education. we need to think about how more americans who want to pursue other routes of climbing that ladder to upward mobility. host: we are going to jenny in michigan. you paid off your loads. caller: they have been paid off since the early 2000's. i went to school when i was in my mid-30's and i graduated when

i was 40. maybe because i was raised by parents who went through the depression. i was always under the belief that if that student loan program had been there for me there was no way i could've gone through medical school. i continue to live after i graduated like i was still a student and i did not take out any loans that i had to. they wanted to give me money, there were a lot of times that those kids when they get there, they sign on the dotted line and they have all that money to spend. it is for their living expensive. and rather than cutting costs,

they don't realize they have to pay that money back. students have access to the same programs that they took advantage of. host: lindsay, take that point. guest: students right now, borrowing for a medical degree can borrow up to the cost of attendance and that can mean virtually anything. that is one of the reasons that we see students taking out so much and leaving with that. if we look at the median payment, it is a little bit lower. the median payment is 220

amount. for those individuals to graduate after they finish college, that is a manageable portion of their income. she lived frugally to repay loans to attend medical school. she signed contract to repay the taxpayer and worked hard to do so. student loans would penalize her for having made those payments. it would penalize individuals who decided not to go to college. it would penalize those students who worked during college and decided to buckle down and crack the books. it would punish those individuals who joined the armed services put their lives on the line to benefit from the g.i. bill.

first so many sectors of society , it would be unfair. host: in washington dc, what is your student loan situation? caller: i'm calling to say that i believe we should have free education because we are paying taxes for students to go to school and learn. we should have free education. where is our tax money going? we are supposed to be able to go. that is why we pay taxes. guest: nothing is free.

we have taxpayer education k-12. our tax payer system funds public education. it should not be the case that higher education is the only way to move up the ladder. we should shift away from that mentality, we should consider that when we hear calls for college, the taxpayer support would wipe out student loan debt. if that were to happen, we would

hear the talk from progressives for free talk moving forward. if there is student loan forgiveness now there would be student loan forgiveness in the future. in the u.k., they had free college and moved away from charging tuition but they reinstated tuition after a few years because they only had a few seats available. it is expensive, money is finite and you limit the amount of seats that are available for students. there are a lot of unintended

consequences associated with loan forgiveness. host: let's talk about the endowments that colleges have. this is from the new york magazine last year. harvard university announced that its endowment fund grew larger. the long-running debate is educating a few thousand students that have endowments that rival gdp's many nations. it announced an 11 billion return for the fiscal year of 2021. how is it that they are able to accrue this money and how is it being spent? guest: when we are talking about ivy league institutions that have large alumni networks, a

lot of that money is alumni driven. places like harvard are private institutions. students receive, take out and borrow student loans that are taxpayer subsidized. a portion of that is coming from -- large endowments that are out there, we have to make the case places like harvard with these massive endowments that they are supporting students with lower tuitions it is one more reason we should reconsider this taxpayer investment in higher

education and enable universities to increase tuition. to continue every single year to ask the taxpayer for more money. host: they gained 11 billion bringing their total endowment to 63 billion. it is 33.6 return was outperformed by endowments at other iv schools. m.i.t., michigan and usc. have you paid off your student loans? caller: i want my money back. i paid for 26 years on my daughters. paying off the loan, i think it was $400 a month. i went bankrupt.

before my bankruptcy, i took out my 401(k) to pay for school for my daughter and then i find out that the 401(k) is protected, i should not of taken it out because bankruptcy can't touch that. if you have a student loan, you cannot claim that under bankruptcy you have to keep paying it. i was paying interest in the interest never went down. i finally paid it off in 2016. all i was paying was interest and when i went bankrupt i got on a program and they let me make small payments but the

interest went up. host: you said you want your money back. what degree did your daughter get? caller: a psychology degree. she went to various colleges. if people are thinking about taking out a loan for education, if you run into bankruptcy, you are screwed. guest: if people pay off their loans then all of a sudden they will have to pay off other people's loans. if the bidens administration proposal moves through, not the

least of which, those who paid off their loans. host: respond to what he said about the 401(k), dipping into that to pay for his daughter's education. our colleges and universities, do they take into consideration retirement funds? do they look into that? guest: they look into a wide variety of factors what your estimated abilities to pay for tuition. when it comes to retirement, it is unfortunate to be in a position where higher education, you have to dip into your retirement to pay for education. what is the primary reason there are such high tuition rates. it is the federal government.

the federal government is dumping money into institution with little requirements for the institutions to be held versus -- responsible. if we want to get to the root of the problem we have to look at washington and we have to move away from policy providing unlimited funds to universities throughout the country enabling them to make tuition and then forgiveness on the backend with their graduates are not able to earn enough money to repay the loans. for me, all roads lead back to congress. host: what does the lobbying

look back for univers -- look like at congress? guest: they want to continue to increase tuition looking forward so they can make the case for tax subsidized student loans. i imagine that there are institution are hoping for additional federal handouts. host: alan and wisconsin. welcome to the conversation. caller: this is frankly disgusting, this conversation. this is one of an army of minions who is fighting the government. as her caller mentioned,

bankruptcy laws have been taken away from student loans. the heritage foundation should be ashamed of themselves. lindsay, how are the people of texas going to take 140 $1 billion in student loan debt and pay that money back to the federal government? how are we going to do that? what is not going to do the state of texas? it will wreck the state of texas. guest: individuals who are borrowers. it is a manageable amount of repayment monthly. there are existing repayment plans that half the amount that you have to pay monthly.

those monthly payments are manageable for most of those borrowers. host: tom from california. do you still have student loans? caller: no i paid mine off a long time ago. number one when most kids are going to college, they declare a major. let's say for the sake of argument, he will be a history teacher or in some other professor. the problem is, these students are kicking horses that has nothing to do with their major. this is the 21st-century, we also have to focus on a person. he doesn't need english or some of those other courses but the courses that give him a degree

in engineering or those particular kinds of courses. when i was going to school, we had to take classes that had nothing to do with my major. guest: i think you are exactly right, no matter what you want to study, whether it is engineering, fashion design, you have to attend college for four years. you have to take courses that have nothing to do with the career that you have chosen where you are ultimately studying to do. that is something that benefits the university because the university is able to drag on the amount of time which means more federal loan money and benefits the bottom line of the college. host: how much do americans pay for a college degree compared to

other countries? guest: you have to be careful when you think about it and those terms because those countries subsidize those degrees at high levels. many countries are pursuing policies where they do not have the national government paying is such a rate that it is enabling institution to raise tuition. if you look at the amount of student loan debt that is out there right now it is 29,000 dollars per borrower. this is a manageable amount of debt if you are graduating into a job, a career in your field that enables you to make those payments. i mentioned england earlier, a good example of the unexpected consequences of the government being involved in financing

education and there were a host of unintended consequences when you asked the taxpayers to invest at such a high level. you end up with rationing. we have to be careful looking at international systems. it varies country to country. host: the april jobs numbers, 428,000 jobs added in april and the unemployment rate staying at 3.6%. lindsey burke with the center of education policy center. thank you for the conversation. guest: thank you for having me. after this break we will talk to jared pass from the senior of higher education with the center for american progress. we will be right back.

♪ sunday on q&a. a discussion about the life and career of first lady jill biden with associated pest white house reporter darlene super bill. she talks about dr. biden's involvement in joe biden's political career and gives insight into her personality. last year she took a trip, i don't remember where she went, on the flight home to washington dc, she apparently left her seat, disappeared for a while and then out came a woman dressed like a flight attendant in a dark haired wig and she

walked through the cabin handing out ice cream bars. no one on the plane recognized it was her. i am not sure how this staff realized she was missing from her seat in the time it took her to walk up and down the aisle handing out ice cream bars. that is the kind of joke she likes to play. sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern. you can listen to our podcasts on our free app. there are a lot of places to get your information. only on c-span do you get it from the source. no matter where you are from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word.

if it happens here, or here, or here, or anywhere that matters. america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. c-span has unfiltered cover to the u.s. response in ukraine. we also have international perspectives from the united nations and statements from foreign leaders all on the c-span networks. c-span now mobile app and c-span.org/ukraine. our resource page where you can watch the latest videos on demand. go do c-span.org/ukraine. washington journal continues. host: joining us now is jared

bass. our conversation continues about efforts by democrats to forgive her student loan debts. where do you come down on this issue? guest: we recognize the problem with student loan debt in this country and. over 43 billion -- million people have student loan debt. saving for retirement, saving for a house they have had to put off lifelong decisions or things like having children, or getting married. there is a burden when it comes to these loan debts. it also recognizes the concerns that people have been raising about black households and borrowers of colors. the higher default rates and the

racial wealth gap as well. host: what is the break down of who has these loans and what percentage of people would benefit the most? guest: there have been several studies that if you cancel student loans you can actually help narrow the racial health cap, eight you can help narrow the racial wealth gap. studies will show that student loan debt is regressive, but if you look at wealth it actually does help address racial wealth gap. taken into account, the real burdens that families feel when it comes to student loans, these are people that took out loans to provide for their futures and

for those who did not complete college, they may not be true. they still own these loans, they are not receiving the benefits of that degree. and for those who do complete their college education, they may still face trouble finding a job and they have trouble paying back their loans. my colleague talked about payment options, that is important. we have idr, we have people who pay a portion of their income, you may see your loan balance grow over time and while you think you are doing really well for yourself because you don't have to make the monthly payment, your balance is still going up and up and up. the other problem that we have found recently from the government accountability office

is that the government was not tracking who was eligible through that program. there were people who after 20 years of seeing the balance go up after making payments who could qualify for repayment did not receive that forgiveness because their servicers did not adequately count qualifying payments towards forgiveness. host: responding governor from florida desantis says what biden says with the student that out there, 60% of it is graduate school dead. these are doctors and lawyers, people who are getting masters and phd's. my view is, why would you make a truck driver or a waitress or

construction worker pay off the debt for somebody who did a phd program in gender studies? that is wrong. is 60% of this debt who got masters or graduate degrees. guest: 40% of federal loan debt is for graduate school. responding to the governor's comment, we have seen through borrowers in this program, people don't go to school for a phd or masters degree. they go to school to be a hairdresser. there was a recent action taken where folks were going to better themselves by being hairdresser. the school was actually bleeding them, they were not teaching them anything. it is not just phd's.

yes they go to get it education for certain benefits. host: why not limit the student loan forgiveness to people who did not pursue a graduate degree who have a job that pays them a substantial amount more than their student loan payment? guest: one concern that we see, the president proposed a cap on who would be eligible for the cancellation. the issue is about the cap was put out and we see that it may harm the people we are trying to help. that is more paperwork and hurdles that you have to jump through.

another reason we don't want to limit to a certain income. even if you make a certain amount, it does not take into it account access. when we are talking about social mobility, many people sought to derive from education. host: we are dividing the lines by if you have student loans (202) 748-8000, if you have paid them off (202) 748-8001, and then all others (202) 748-8002. to nausea and florida, you have student loans? caller: i have 130 thousand just

from undergrad. most of it is in my mom's name and my question is, is there any way possible that i can transfer it to me. my mom is in retirement age. guest: that is a real problem. where parents take out loans, unfortunately, parents are not eligible for repayment. we have a situation where parent borrowers are not able to have access to the same benefits for government benefits that children enjoy as borrowers. i think dead cancellation that takes into account the situation

that parent borrowers could provide needed relief to our caller here. host: dan in newark, new jersey. i am paying my student loans out of my social security check. they took me at 6%. this happened at another bank. i am up to 13% on an initial loan that goes way back. in europe, after you finish high school you can go to medical school, law school. you don't go to for school to

make up for 12 years. there is no reason actually finish high school that you should have to go to college to make up for that. americans are being duped. i am a conservative but i can't stand conservative frauds. host: can you talk about the need for higher education? guest: there is a need for reform and debt cancellation is one option. looking at the cost of college, we should be looking at the cost of college. we should also be looking at options to provide from remedial

to higher education. there are areas for reform that we should be looking at. we should be looking at cause-and-effect. debt cancellation is important, to alleviate the burdens of the effects that we have seen from the high cost of college. reforming and providing a better education system from early childhood through graduation and course development as part of that conversation. host: james from canton, ohio. caller: i am a truck driver that is just retiring. i will be 65 this year. i believe in student loan forgiveness up to $15,000 to a

state college. i make 90,000 a year that i make work 80 hours a week. i would like to go to college. that is not going to happen because our government is not going to do that. how about all these other people that would like to do something better? let's give them a hundred thousand dollars? guest: there are proposals to help finance and provide more access to college education.

i think that would encourage and help struggling americans that the gentleman was talking about. for the millions of americans that have already gone through the system, the millions of americans that are at risk for default there has to be some relief for them. we need to provide relief on the front in but also relief on the backend as well. the national defense act in 1958 , there was an effort to train and of people to go into the sciences. in 1965, president johnson

signed in the higher education act who provided access to people who would not otherwise have access to higher education. the problem here is the cost of the access. the problem is not that we are providing financial aid, it is the type of financial aid. we are not providing enough grant aid. if we provided as much in grants as much as loan principal, the situation would be a lot different. the pell grant does not cover as much as it used to cover. host: david brooks writes about this in the new york times, we should cancel student debt but only for some. dead cancellation is something

he could do on his own. i am hoping he will raise the amount of debt to 20,000 but he will limit it to those whose families make less than 75,000, to those who received pell grant. social change has made me more serve port of than i used to be, especially to those -- guest: it is a complicated issue , and folks argue it from different sides. from some of the reasons that we talked about, if we are trying to have a conversation around

addressing the racial wealth gap, then an income cap may not health with that because you have borrowers that may have gone to graduate school who may not be black or brown. it does not help them necessarily. the concern here is that if we are trying to help people who make less than 75,000, it may be hard because the government may not have access to that data. they would not have it all, we would have to go through another process to have people try to verify their data. the other concern here is that

we could provide a limited relief. provide an idr waiver, ppd actions. it is presenting real challenges and that has been the concern, we are seeing it is so broken and problematic a broad-based solution may be in order. host: cc and maryland, go ahead. caller: i wanted to comment on my situation. back in 2015i lost my job and had to -- my 401(k).

so not only am i paying on that, i also have to pay on two kids' loans. parent plus loans, my kids are 18 months apart, they paid loans themselves. my loans are 350,000 dollars right now. they did not go to harvard or any of those fancy schools. the problem is my income did not cover the interest. it kept on compounding and kept on growing. i do not know how i am going to get this paid off. host: is she eligible for debt forgiveness after 20 years? guest: again, parent plus loans are only eligible for one kind of idr plan. it's actually unclear. i do not remember whether you

are eligible for forgiveness, but if it is idr, pay, repay, those students will be eligible after 20 years. but we are also seeing a problem where the government is not adequately tracking who is eligible for forgiveness after 20 years during the situation where more folks were eligible for forgiveness then who received it, and now we are course correcting to figure out, how do we provide this relief to borrowers? host: kay in new york? caller: hi, i have a few questions and i hope i can concentrate here. i and the late 1960's attended -- i came from a dire, dire poor , rural area in the midwest. i worked multiple low-wage jobs and attended that university, and came out with no debt.

i didn't have enough money for food, but i made it. there is no way that the minimum wage did not keep up that you can do that now like i did. i wonder what about the support for our landmark universities that have not kept up? after i graduated perdue, i decided to attend law school nights and work full-time days. that was not the smartest decision in my life, because i did not graduate from harvard or yale. i work for greedy, multinational corps, in-house counsel. the number one, number two associate, deputy general counsel, and my salary was much lower than the truck driver who called. when i went to law school at nights, i borrowed $10,000. my income was $20,000. i was 50% in debt and was not able to pay that off until i was in my 40's. i did -- was not able to buy

a home or save much, it did not work out for me, our ability to climb that ladder in the u.s. is now lower than it is in fr ance, so i'm in a very lousy situation, not having save much money. the third thing is about advanced degrees -- i do not want doctors graduating with $500,000 in debt and not being able to become primary care physicians. in other developed nations, they value and educated society. they value the ability for doctors to choose their specialty, not based on how the heck they are going to pay off $500,000 in debt, but to contribute by being primary care physicians, for example. i think i got it all together there. those are my questions, and i appreciate your feedback. guest: i will start with the last point. you had a second earlier about the urban-rural divide and some concerns about that.

there was a hearing earlier this week in the senate banking committee, i believe, where they talked about the rural brain drain, where our folks are having to leave rural environments urban environments to make more money and pay off student loans. that's a concern for doctors, who are not becoming general practitioners in certain areas and they have to go into specialty practice to pay back their student loans. i know we are kind of disparaging doctors right now, but because of the physician shortage, i don't think we should be. i think providing student loan relief to doctors and to others could really bring services back to underserved communities and be a real boon and benefit their. the caller brought up a concern with flagship or landmark university funding. that's one of the root causes of the practice we are having right now, the cost for college. super investment coupled with the 2008 recession has squeezed

the budget, so there is a lot provided there. that's one of the reason the president proposed doing free community college, to get folks back into the conversation and back to the table as far as providing relief or aid to students upfront. that's another issue. there was one other question that our caller asked -- host: landmark universities? guest: we talked about landmark universities and investments, i think it was around graduate school and may be going to graduate school and not being able to earn that much -- there is a quality conversation that needs to happen about education as well, meaning are people graduating with a quality education? accreditation can help with that, so things like state involvement, whether it be through attorneys general or others, that's a good point.

eight attorneys general this week actually signed a letter, i believe, to the president, calling for bold debt cancellation, recognizing the benefits. i think it through reform. this does have to be a whole conversation around what we do with higher education. i do not think it is one and done debt cancellation, we solved all the problems, because overnight people can still borrow. i think coupling those two together, we can address problems for present-day borrowers and future borrowers as well. host: north carolina -- gary? caller:hi, thank you for taking my call. i do not agree with the loan forgiveness series, because you know, when you take out loans, you borrow your money and promising to pay it back. it's a contract. if the government continues to

have contracts and people want to ignore paying it, what's the point of having a contract whatsoever? to me, what's next? forgive home loans and vacation loans? that's my argument. if you take out a loan, you are guaranteeing you are going to pay it back for something that you borrowed. host: we will take that, gary. jared bass? guest: it goes back to what i was saying earlier. it's not just financial aid, but the financial aid that was provided. because of the declining investment in the pell grant, people turn to loans. we saw people use that to provide access to higher education. it's also important to remember here that we are talking about the federal government. it's not that you are giving it to a private institution, the federal government is your lender, who can change those loans. there was a discussion in the earlier segments around

bankruptcy, that you can't discharge your student loans in bankruptcy unless there is undue hardship, and that's a very, very hard thing to prove in bankruptcy court. but you can discharge other debt in bankruptcy court, you can file for whatever chapter you are supposed to file and have those other debts either discharged, but you cannot do that for student loans. and if you default on your student loans, the government can garnish your wages. we are talking about people who not only have that burden on their credit report, but also, the government will come after them and garnish their wages. i think it's a unique circumstance when we are dealing with the federal government that was supposed to provide access. the only thing i will say, there has also been research that shows that some colleges actually don't tell people what is a grant versus a loan, so when they are signing on the dotted line, it is not clear that hey, this is money you have to pay back.

when colleges do their aid packages, they say hey, this is the age you are eligible for. but is there an understanding of this is grant aid, this is a loan, this is what you have to pay back, this is what you down? this is an access to brighter education and a brighter future for me, and they may not know what they are signing up for as well. there is also a misrepresentation with some schools and borrowing claims as well. it's not as simple as i signed a contract and i am going to pay it back, because we have borrowers who do, but anyway -- host: in case our viewers missed the numbers from earlier, 1.75 trillion dollars of student loan debt in the united states. ready 6 million americans have student loans. 92% of them -- -- 46 million americans have student loans. 92% of them are --.

there has been a moratorium put on it by the biden administration and an average monthly payment was $300 before this administration allowed people to not make payments during the covid-19 pandemic. karen in mount holly, new jersey. how are you? caller: hi, how are you? i am calling because i am a graduate, i graduated with a bachelors degree in psychology in 1994. i still have student loans. my concern, the lenders that changed a couple of times, they kept steering me towards forbearance. i'm in public service and have been in public service 25 years, not making a lot of money and i can barely afford to pay my rent, let alone my student loan. my lender kept steering towards forbearance for years. i for the last five years started paying back with the idr plan, which they finally told me

about. my concern, all the interest accrued on my loan and now my loan doubled to the original amount, and i agree with one of the callers that called in, who said basically, my loan never goes down. it keeps going up. i make my payments, which are high because of the idr plan, i make better money now, but the money all goes towards the interest and not toward the principle. so i would be in favor of forgiveness. forgive the interest of the loans -- maybe that's the idea, to forgive the interest. host: let's take that. jared bass? guest: there are several borrowers, several million borrowers in this situation where they are in forbearance and accrue interest. in order to find out about some of these plans, you have to ask the right questions of your servicer. it's not automatically -- servicers are getting better because it's about saving

problems there, but they are starting to realize that oh, you are not telling everyone about idr options that may be beneficial, relying on forbearance -- we call it forbearance because it is easier for a servicer to put you in forbearance, not have to make payments, but you still accrue interest. there will also be interested capitalization events that occur as well, where any added interest gets added on top of your principl and you have to paye that as well. you might be an extended forbearance, thinking you are making progress toward that 20, to any five-year forgiveness event, and you are actually not. that's why this report is really, really helpful and actions departments are taking right now could be helpful to correct some of those problems that we see. on the issue of interest, interest forgiveness versus full

cancellation, that's one of the proposals that is out there. where people are saying let's forgive interest. interest would benefit borrowers who have been repaying longer, because they take more interest towards their outstanding principle, but borrowers entering repayment have not seen much interest. who are we benefiting, how are we benefiting them? that's one of the concerns there. i think by a large, folks, and even the polls are showing folks support some form of debt cancellation. whether it be government problems, servicer problems in administering the program, people not knowing about it, it's a perfect storm of administrative challenges when it comes to student loan payments. college students shouldn't have to be on the hook for that, amp -- and the government can take corrective action to affect that. host: let's hear from desiree in

overland park. good morning. caller: ok, i was kind of a late number. i got my bachelors in 1997, my second in 1999, my third in 2010. i am $159,000 in student loan debt, largely due to the 7% interest rate that is on it, which i think is absolutely insane. i can understand them charging 1% or 2% so they can service the loans, but they are making money off my back. my question is this -- i am in idr. my understanding is that it will be forgiven after 25 years, when i am well into my 70's, but that income is going to be taxable. by that time, i will have $300,000 in student loan debt. so how do i pay back the tax bill for $300,000? is that being addressed? is the forgiveness going to be nontaxable?

guest: that's part of the american rescue plan conversation, to make relief that is provided for forgiveness to be ivanka -- be nontaxable until 2025, so there are conversations around whether we need to make that permanent. one overarching point that we are hearing from a college, debt cancellation is already part of the conversation, it just hasn't worked really well for borrowers. we have debt cancellation through idr after 20 years, but it has not worked well because borrowers entitled to it have not received it. there are problems around public service loan forgiveness, we have debt cancellation for teachers, and people are still making repayments on that. it's already part of the equation. when we talk about cost, the cost conversations, they are a little bit misleading because some of these loans may already

be forgiven, but the balance keeps going up. the government might be forgiving more 20 years out, 25 years out depending on the program that folks are under. the other issue here is interest. 7% interest rates -- we are lending to individuals at a rate higher than most banks. that's something we should think about. is that the right policy, where we have an interest rate that is higher on the back of people than the rate that we lend to banks? host: end higher than a mortgage. guest: exactly, yeah. it is higher than a mortgage as well. interest rates are lower than they used to be, but for graduate school, parent plus loans, they may be higher. it depends on the type of loan that you have. but even for the subsidized and unsubsidized loans, for graduate students, it tends to be higher than for banks. host: charlotte and houston, good morning to you. caller: good morning.

i had a student loan and i did pay it off. i am going to breach out here a little bit -- a lot of these students -- and i have worked as a teacher for welding -- i taught welding. the federal government gives the money out to degree programs. they don't give it to apprentice programs like that or craft programs. i worked in an area that was economically challenged. the thing is, these students come into the college and it's only a community college, they go to counselors, but they are not counseled in the proper way. first off, when you start off saying that you are not going to make enough if you don't have a college degree, first of all, that's one thing that's very negative.

another thing, these students are not aware. when you tell them they are going to take a remedial class and they've got to have all these things to get a welding, just to learn how to weld, this is money they are going to spend and they are going to be charged for and they are going to have to pay back, and half of the students don't finish. half of them don't finish because they have been put into a program that they can't possibly, possibly grasp. the other thing is, why are we doing it like luxembourg? you take a test at the high school level, because you have an extra year to. you take it at the high school level. if you are not capable of going to a college, you don't go to one. you go to a trade school. why can't we do something like that here? host: ok, thank you for your point, charlotte. guest: i see two points

there, matching course requirements, graduation requirements to what you are studying. when you are studying a non-math field, maybe it doesn't make sense for you to have to take calculus or something. i think there are conversations around that happening, there's remediation to talk about the time you have to spend in element education -- in development education. also, a point about counseling. we need to be doing more, better college counselors in the k-12 schools. we need to have better financial aid counseling or interest counseling when students come in. and transparency about, is this a grant versus a loan?

that's important. the concern i have about the test, systemic issues we have for income. our high resource areas will do better on the path when they get into college, but low resource areas are not going to do well on tracks where you don't get into college. i think if there was a level playing field and that was fair, that would make sense. but i think we see educational opportunities as not equally spread out through the united states, whether that be rural or urban areas. that's a real concern. host: now to our next conversation, when we had earlier today. thank you. we will return to the conversation we had earlier with you -- what are the causes of the urban-rural divide in america? is it as we just heard, access to public policy programs?

politicians, our political structure, media, social media, or other reasons? start dialing in. we will get your thoughts in just a minute. ♪ >> book tv, every sunday on c-span two, features authors discussing their nonfiction books. from the energy conference, debates and discussions on climate change with the author of "fossil future," plus on how human flourishing requires more coal, oil, and natural gas, not less. and the author of "false alarm: how climate change panic cost us millions, hurts the poor, and failed to fix the planet."

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now available in the c-span shop, c-span's 2022 congressional directory. go there today to order a copy of the congressional directory. this compact, spiral-bound book as your guide to the federal government, with contact information for every member of congress, also contact information for state governors and the cabinet. order your copy today at c-span shop.org. every order helps supports c-span's nonprofit operation. host: welcome back. why is there an urban-rural divide in america? listen to what to former politicians had today at georgetown university earlier this week. here's the former democratic mayor of atlanta, keisha lance bottoms, and former south carolina congressman, republican trey gowdy. >> the biggest misunderstanding

is that we are not the enemy. we are not full of criminals and drug addicts and people who wish to wreak havoc on society. i base this upon the way the city of atlanta is often vilified in the state of georgia. we are a blue city in a red state, and it is often said there is atlanta, and then there is the rest of georgia, because it is that big of a divide. the reality is, we care about all the same things. we want safe communities. we want access to health care. we want to be able to send our kids to great schools. i think we have much more in common than not, but i think that's the biggest misconception, that cities are the enemy, and that we are takers and not givers.

>> i do think there is this natural human nature bent to it us versus them. often times, like when we were in the green room, it's good-natured. there was a reference to someone being from up north, somebody from down south meant it in a good-natured, jocular way. that us versus them is not always good-natured, but i think we are a little bit wired, you know, skins versus shirts. the second thing that popped into my mind, the closer you are to an urban area, i think the more you get to see what your government can do. what your tax dollars can do. the further removed you are from parks, may be the less you understand why we need our tax dollars to go for a park. the further removed you are from major highway projects, maybe

you question -- i think the size and scope of government and how people view that. host: picking up on the former congressman's point there, the university of washington st. louis did a study on this issue, they released a study on this urban-rural divide, and it matters where you live. small towns have always been can fit of leaning. people living in rural areas tend to have traditional values and be resistant to new ideas. in contrast, large, heavily populated cities have traditionally been more open to liberal ideas, more accommodating to unconventional behaviors and beliefs. citydwellers have a greater opportunity to interact with diverse people, which fosters tolerance. they also have the ability to be anonymous, which encourages respect for people's privacy. according to the research, one might come to the conclusion that people live in urban and

rural communities based on their values. a small share of movers consider political values directly in their decision-making process. let's turn to you. why do you think there is this urban-rural divide in america? our caller in dallas, texas, you are first. go ahead. caller: good morning, washington journal, and good morning, america. i am a third generation, so this goes with my knowledge on america, our family started off in alabama and my great-grandmother moved to michigan to start modeling for ford, when he first started doing that. in my mind, i considered the opportunities she had when she was in the south versus the opportunities she would get when she came up north. but when my mother was growing up there, we ended up moving to

the projects. about 12 years old, george bush was, george bush senior became the president. my mom sent me to texas because it was hectic around 1991, 1992, -- all through the 80's, actually. my mom wanted me to get a slower pace so i could focus on my education rather than my social environment. i sale these things to say that people in my opinion -- say all these things to say that people, in my opinion, move to urban areas for opportunities and move to rural areas for the piece. i will finish there, thank you. host: we will go to holden, maine. denise, what do you think is the cause for this divide? caller: i think some of it is -- i have lived in jersey, which is

more of a suburb. i find you are more independent when you are in rural areas. you have to depend for yourself, you depend on yourself or food. you have to drive to get to a grocery store. you have to plan your trips. host: how does that impact the divide? or how do you look at people in the urban areas because you are in holden, maine, a rural area and you are independent, as you say? caller: because we have to -- i guess i look at an urban area, yes, you do have different people. i go into a city and i am scared to death. i don't like all the hustle and

bustle. some people like that and enjoy that. i just think that when you are in a rural area, you're more worried about how you are going to get food, do the energy -- an urban area, maybe your rent, everything is included. here, they separately -- i think we are a little bit more independent. host: do you think, then, that people in urban areas take more from the government than people in rural areas? caller: my feeling is that in cities, i see where all this money, we are going to help people and nothing seems to get better. i think they spend money. i don't think they necessarily

spend money wisely. when you go to a city, you see blight and you wonder why, with all the money that's going in for homelessness, food, all of that -- you don't see the city's getting better. they just seem to be getting worse. host: ok. anthony and st. paul, minnesota. go ahead, share your thoughts with us on this. caller: good morning. i was going to mention on your last segment the student loans and possible forgiveness that the ppp loans were given out, and that was a considerable amount, which is similar to the overall debt in student loans. those repayments for the ppp loans are being spoken on as being forgiven -- host: what about urban-rural divide? guest: i got that, i just want

to say that the ppp loan could go to the forgiveness of the urban and rural loans. yesterday, minnesota released a study showing inequality between the community of black and white. you look at the most recent uprising and war in ukraine and the response from the united states government, where there aid was immediately there. then you compare that to the death of george floyd and the response from corporations and so forth that followed immediately after, and these corporations promised to address that divide, which was overlooked. you compare that with ukraine, you see race involved, and you know why george floyd, the response from these corporations has been overlooked. you want to see inequality compared to the rural community in minnesota? in the inner-city, you look at

these new condos and buildings going up. they are overpriced for houses, therefore it leads to your homelessness in the community. i live in minnesota, i have lived here my entire life. i go fishing as often as possible -- it is very hard to see a black person that owns a boat on any lake, river, or any other source of water. along with the ownership of homes -- i can walk up and down blocks and knock on doors and ask, who owns this house? it is more likely to be that. you also see the racial disparities in sporting events. you have seen the ownership of marijuana dispensaries, equally, nowhere near equally the same. showing the difference on race here, how it is treated differently, a few years ago we had this big immigrant problem at the southern border? back then, we had armed men go

down to the border, take it upon themselves, referred to themselves as the minutemen. they were predominantly white men. if we were to put black men in those roles, there would be an uprising if we armed them. host: ok. we will go to brandon in maryland, in a rural area. what do you think contributes to this divide between urban and rural america? caller: i have a different take on this. i don't believe there is a divide. i see it talking to people and experienced two different lifestyles. major cities are majority democratic and rural areas are republican, generally. i think it is due to the environment. you have more people going through cities that are closer together. i don't believe there is a divide, just two different takes on these things and it's the media that's perpetuating the

dide aspect of this. i think that's my side -- we need to get away from the fact that there is a divide and that it is tw different lifestyles completelyo. host: do you see a political divide? is the former mayor of atlanta was saying, you have the city of atlanta voting blue, voting for democrats predominantly, then everywhere else in the state of georgia is red, everywhere else being rural parts of georgia? caller: that makes sense historically, i guess i would say. i believe there needs to be an exchange of ideas. there are two opposite ends of the spectrum that don't want to work together or come together for any solutions. i do believe there is a political divide, but that's

where the line is drawn. host: so an exchange of ideas would help with that political divide? caller: i think so. host: how do you do that? caller: fortunately i am not a politician and i do not have to come up with that solution, but i think there should be more outreach and communication, and provide more information to everybody. regarding one way or the other, put it all out there. i think the politicians are a bit dogmatic when it comes to reaching out to the other side. i think that's where this comes from. host: tina in huntington, pennsylvania. what do you say? caller: hi, greta. i have lived in both. i am a transplant to

pennsylvania. i lived in jacksonville, florida, and now i am in a rural area in pennsylvania. i keep hearing race, race, race, when that is not the case. the problem is the government throws money to the urban community and the rural community, we fend for ourselves. that needs to change. just like in pennsylvania, our electoral college is philadelphia, pittsburgh and harrisburg. the rest of the state, it doesn't matter how you vote. we need to take race out of this equation and we need to treat everybody as red-blooded americans, americans first, immigrants second. it's got to stop. the government has to stop throwing money at the problem. in an urban area in jacksonville, you can walk in and say i need -- and you are going to get. if you do that up here,

it's not going to happen? they have to stop throwing money with the urban communities and throw it to the rural's. we have bad roads because of the horses and the amish carriages -- the roads are horrible. we have mountains, roads have been cut through that the rocks are continually falling with no barrier. they have to start going into rural america and saying, what do you need, instead of pushing us to the side. that's why we vote republican, so we can get help from the government, because if you don't live in the city, you are not going to get the help. host: what help do you get from republicans? what do you .2? -- point to? caller: they are more boisterous on the floor as to what rural america faces, like i said, with the mountains falling. they are literally falling and

there is no barricade protecting the cars. unfortunately, if a rock falls on your car -- this has happened in my family -- your insurance doesn't pay for it. so go get up on the floor, and they will say, farmer joe is experiencing whatever he is experiencing, and we need grant money to help protect those fields. there are so many fields that have flooded this year that i have not heard josh soup -- josh schapiro, whoever talk about it. conor lamb i thought would, but he has not talked about it. the only ones that are are the republicans. host: this was talked about at the georgetown university event with former congressman trey gowdy of south carolina and former mayor keisha lance bottoms, a democrat. listen up. [video clip] >> rural voters drive to the cities for jobs, because manufacturers have -- we have

moved to a service-based economy. if you want work, you drive into the city. that may wind up being the best hope for curing the divide. the more time you spend around people not like yourself, the more appreciation you have for them. it the interstate pass you by in my state when they were building the interstate, those communities were dead. they are gone. so it's not volitional, us versus them, it's a consequence of where we put the interstate systems, the factories -- if you think your life is not going well, you can look at yourself or you can blame an exterior force. i think the temp tatian is to sometimes want to blame an exterior force. >> i will give you another example -- affordable housing. when i went over to the state legislature to talk about my

agenda, i debated, should i talk about affordable housing? i thought republican leaders from rural communities would not want to hear about atlanta's housing issue. i was dead wrong. for several reasons -- one, i assumed they would not want to hear about it, but they were very interested. one, because they all had to come into the city during this session, so they were looking for housing. secondly, their kids and grandkids were moving into the city. housing was an issue. there were people even from the metropolitan area, the second-grade teacher could not afford to live in the city. she was driving an hour. all of these reasons that made people care, i could have stopped in my office in city hall and just said, they don't want to hear about this.

they don't care about affordable housing, don't even bring it up. but it was a very productive conversation. we have to get out of our own way and stop making assumptions of what people care about. it may not be for the same reasons that i care, but there is much more commonality then we often give people credit for. host: we have a little less than 20 minutes left in this conversation. why is there an urban-rural divide in america. cynthia in dallas, texas, what do you think? caller: i agree with everything that has been said. good morning, greta. i came from european immigrants, lithuanian. now i can say ukraine, people can point out a map and say, oh, yeah, i know where that is. i don't have to say russian --

german and dutch. in that mix of workers, when i came to this country, my upbringing might have been a little bit different and we lived in a small city up north in wisconsin. icon as i grew up, went to where i could get a job, and that was dallas, texas. i live now in a suburb of dallas, texas. as i have aged, i am moving and transitioning to a smallish city . i think i have done a tour. i think the divide is from the experience of what you basically believe or what you have come to believe. in my case, i was always taught that no one is going to take care of you -- i guess you have to do the best you can. in the rural areas, what i find, i know my politicians. they know me.

it's face-to-face. they see me and say oh yeah, cynthia. when i lived in dallas, texas, in the city -- and i have lived in milwaukee and chicago and l.a. -- when you live in a bigger city, there is more anonymity and less accountability. in a rural area, the accountability for your actions and your property and for who you are. in the urban area, maybe there are so many people that we forget who we are and we think, well, no one's really watching. for me, i have done the tour. i think i am still the same person and that's the challenge -- who are we and how do we identify? host: cynthia in dallas. montroe in san pedro,

california. good morning to you. how would you describe your community? caller: first thing -- i want to say, i agree wholeheartedly with the caller who says there is not really a divide, so to speak. the question is, who is saying there is a divide and why do they want to change that? there will always be different lifestyles in this country and that is ok. since that is ok, who is it that wants to change that? that's the question. host: who do you think that is? caller: that's what i am asking. that's the question today. the fact is, there are different clothing stores, because different people have different tastes. that's the same thing with rural and urban areas. there are different reasons, and a lot of those reasons are ok.

it's just ok. the question is, who wants to know and why are they asking? host: gary in fort smith, ohio. hi, gary. caller: how are we doing? good morning. host: you've got to meet your television, please. caller: yes ma'am. host: go ahead. caller: coming up as a biracial man, as white, i looked at rural, than urban as black. in the end of the day, all the things we are doing in america are choices, the things that have gone on in urban neighborhoods, so to speak, have been things that i believe and everything always falls to the government, because the government is the one that takes your tax money. i believe that the government has a lot of responsibility to do with the racism that has

stirred in america, that is stirred between the urban and rural. when we stop using those words and getting those words out of our minds, we can change as a people. this thing ain't a secret -- racism is not a secret, but the choices, our choices that god blesses us with every morning, to be able to be good to the man or bad to the man. host: so what do politicians need to do, or what are they doing that is causing this divide? caller: you need to stop worrying about the money and put in place the people. the people will bring the money because god made enough people. if we can stop worrying about power and politics and the joneses and the mccoys, who's got what, teaching our kids to

be better than other kids, teaching our kids that it's ok if you are gay at the age of nine or 10, these are the things that's destroying america, man. all of us have a day we have to account for, the heart and the mind that we have walked in as god mend -- meant us. just my -- to smile and wave at people the way we should. host: theresa, we have 10 minutes left here. go ahead. caller: i just wanted to say that i live in a city with a very progressive mayor, even though he is a republican. he has declared that he wants our city to be an international city and he also welcomes people from every country to live here.

i also want to say, before covid, there was an lgbtq bookstore on route 66, across the street from my grandson's automotive shop. and they -- there was a man with his wife and their apparent grandkids that were protesting about these people going to hell? and the community told them they needed to leave. and they did. so i just want to say, we are full of art and i believe, and so do a lot of the young people here that i know, that oklahoma will become a purple state soon.

it used to be a democratic state for years and years, and then for some reason, it turned red. but i believe, as some of these older, prejudiced people begin dying off, we are once again going to become a blue state. that's just what i wanted to say. host: teresa, speaking of politics, former president trump holds a rally today for dr. oz in pennsylvania's senate race. president biden is heading to cincinnati today to talk about the economy and his administration's agenda, so you can look for that on c-span.org. also, as we told you earlier, the jobs report is out for april. 400 plus jobs added, 430

thousand plus jobs added, and get up limit rate staying at 3.6% -- the unemployment rate staying at 3.6 percent. let's hear from john in pennsylvania. how are you? caller: i'm good, i'm good. how are you? host: i'm good. caller: there's a lot to talk about, but i am in a rural area. people around me are republican. they put up these awful signs -- i am a little star in a universe of red, ok? they put up signs bad mouthing the president, really nasty, derogatory terms. i'm sorta frightened about where i live because they don't care, they will do what they want, they don't want to listen. but the problem comes in gerrymandering. our representative, mike kelly in the northwest, our --, he is

a republican. mike kelly is a republican. if you write them and telling them your concerns as a democrat , as a citizen of the united states, they don't care. they are protected. they don't care. the rural divide gets bigger and bigger, and my neighbors won't even listen. they are brainwashed with some kind of gobbledygook. they don't care -- they go to church, but they will run you over in the parking lot. it really, really gets to me. how could you be a christian yet aboard christian values -- yet abhor christian values? you would kill your neighbor because they were a democrat. people don't see this divide, and i could talk to a few friends who are democrats around me -- there are very few, but i refuse to move. i refuse to leave. i am american. i am. going to let them -- they are bullies. they bully and bully and bully. that's the problem, greta.

we need competitive districts so all the people's voices are heard, not one side he was gerrymandered to. host: john in he rural area says it is structure that is a cause of this divide. robin and santa fe, what do you say? caller: wow. i was born and raised in suburbia, i have lived in rural areas and also in cities. i am currently living in a city. the difference between the people that lived in suburbia and the urban and the rural, the rural people really do not like the federal government and they really do not want the federal government being involved in their business. i mean, seriously. the people in the urban areas, they are sort of either

indifferent or somewhat negative towards the federal government, but they seem to see or feel a lot more interest or involvement from the local politicians than the rural people do from the federal government. now, also the rural people are close to their police departments,, their sheriffs, their neighbors.they have grown up with them. they know them. they are totally comfortable with them. host: so what is the cure then? how do you bridge this divide? caller: why is that divide -- well, here is another part about the urban and the rural. the rural people seem to think -- they want the federal government out of your business, but they definitely want to be in your business, whereas the

people in the city, they don't want to be in your business and they don't want you being in their business. part of this, i think, is a social control issue. there is a lot of social control in rural and suburbia. there is very much less in urban areas, as far as having to comply with your neighbors, kind of. host: got it, robin. monica and sioux falls, south dakota. we will try to get a couple more calls and before the house comes in for a pro forma session. caller: thanks. i don't have all the answers, but i grew up on a farm, and own the farm with my siblings. i live in our only urban metropolitan area in our whole state, which is vast with little

population. we had callers talking about blight in the cities. if they would come to our towns, away from the interstates, there is real blight in our rural areas as well. we talk about pumping money into the cities. well, we pump money into our ranchers and farmers to a high, high degree, so i think there is no simple answer. i think the divide has maybe been exacerbated due to the populations because there are no jobs in our towns, and technology has made it possible for a couple of farmers and ranchers to work thousands of acres of land. so they have sent their children off to college, for education, and few of them come back. i think there is a fear out there in our rural communities that their way of life is threatened. in some ways it may be is, but i

do not think the answers are so simple as we try to make them believe, blight in one place, money being pumped into one place. i think that is to some -- two simplistic. host: there are subsidies for farmers, agencies for farmers to farm or not farm certain crops. caller: for conservation purposes, we are paid to conserve land. we pay big subsidies for certain crops, the federal government buys crops as well, so it is to some ballistic to say -- too simplistic to say there is just blight in the cities or the rural areas, we have a real blight here and a real fear in our smaller areas that their way

of life is threatened. they have small communities that have trouble now even staffing a fire department. there aren't enough people. host: monica and sioux falls, south dakota. let's get in mark, down in dallas. caller: great colors and great topic. i think the divide comes from, either you live in an incorporated land, inc. land, or unincorporated land. if you live inside the city, you are living inside a corporation. they have a jurisdictional area specified. you don't get to vote for your police chief, but you get to vote for your sheriff in your urban area. that's the difference -- people who live in the city keep complaining about the police. it's a private security force. you look -- you don't get to vote for the police chief. why would we muddy the waters --

you live under a county government in the city, you live under a city government. in the urban areas, you get to call your sheriff and vote for him. host: in the rural area? caller: yes. it comes down to jurisdictions. host: mark. i'm going to go to william in pennsylvania. william, make it real quick, because the house is coming in for their pro forma session. . caller: yes, basically, what i was sitting there and saying, they always complain about the money going to cities, but the cities make all the money. most of us rural -- i live in a rural area -- we would not even survive without federal money. host: william, i heard your point. it was quick and i apologize for the interruption. we will leave it there. thank you all for joining in the conversation this morning read we will be back tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern time. we will bring you the house