website, c-span.org. close listen to c-span radio with our free mobile app, c-span now. get access to what is happening in washington, with live streams and floor proceedings and hearings from the u.s. congress. white house events, the courts, campaigns, and more. plus, analysis of the world of politics with our podcasts. c-span now is available at the apple store and google play. download it for free today. c-span now, your front row seat to washington. anytime, anywhere. ♪ >> joining us this morning is kevin kuhlman, the vice president for federal government relations with the federal relation of independent business. thank you for being here. i want to begin with the front page of the wall street journal this morning on which you

represent. the headline is, small business project economy to worsen. this saw 50% of small business owners expected conditions to worsen in the next year, up from 42% in april. why? >> small businesses are flashing yellow warning lights. the small business, half of the economy is extremely important to the economic recovery. it is concerning all of the talk of recessions. our research shows similar, inflation is taking its toll on small businesses. it is the top small business problem for one third of small business owners. it was low single digits. it has really shot up in their concerns, in mission to work force shortages, supply chain disruptions, it is concerning similarly to those record numbers, our right -- research shows better conditions in six months is the lowest it has been in the 50 year survey. n in the nearly 50 year survey. host: what is it about inflation

that worries them -- concerns them? guest: supplies, inventory, fuel prices, energy prices, and that is just increasing costs forcing owners to increase their prices. most business owners have increased their prices 10%. they are revisiting those prices more often than they used to. biweekly they are looking at prices taking stock of what they need to do to keep up with inflationary pressures. host: what would possibly reducing tariffs do? what small business owners be on board with that? guest: four impacted industries impacted by tariffs that would be welcomed -- for industries impacted by tariffs that would

be welcomed. that is one step that could be taken to bolster business confidence a little bit, focusing on anything that increases prices, whether it is energy prices, fuel prices. reducing tariffs would help a little bit but i would not expect it to be the panacea to resolve everything. host: the federal reserve say they need to call this economy and keep raising interest rates. if that causes retrenchment by u.s. consumers, then what? guest: that would be problematic. we are seeing demand from consumers continue. people are still buying despite price increases. if consumer confidence lowers and people pull back, then we have a problem. we are close to a recession. we just don't want it to be a long-lasting recession, if we do get there. hopefully it is something that

can be quickly recovered. our members have set their expectations for better business conditions 6 months from now are the lowest they have ever been. host: i want to get to that point. let me invite our callers to call in. if you own a small business, (202) 748-8000. if you are a small business employee, (202) 748-8001. all others, (202) 748-8002. before we get to no harm, how would you define a small business? guest: the federal government has many different definitions. you cannot be publicly traded, but the vast majority of nfib members are on the smaller side. average, $5,000 in gross receipts.

we represent the truly small and, although our members could be a sole proprietor, no employees all the way through a manufacturer or distributor with a couple hundred or couple thousand employees. host: when you say " do no harm," to lawmakers, does that mean do nothing? guest: it means take a look at every piece of legislation you are considering, and say " how would this impact the small business economy? how would this impact consumer confidence? are we making things better or are we going to make things potentially worse, get people more in a defensive crouch? and will it have a real impact? i think the worst thing at this point in time would be to pile on new taxes or regulations to

small businesses. we want to build up confidence, and not retrench them more into a defensive crouch where they do not want to invest in their employees. host: what can the president do on immigration and diseases for jobs? guest: -- and visas for jobs? guest: opening up visas for seasonal jobs would help. it may be too late if they enter into their season. some of this may -- needed to be done longer ago. any of those on the visa side for those impacted industries would be welcomed. host: anything that this administration can do in the short term? guest: taking a look at energy policy and trying to bring down energy prices, both in the production and distribution of gasoline of fuel,, as well as looking at the price.

nfib has supported the gas tax holidays. it seems like it has not caught fire. we realize there would be some longer term consequences of suspending the gas tax, but it is something our members would be open to. host: let's get to calls. james in boston. you are calling about small businesses in the country? caller: yes, good morning. i have a question. he said he was looking at small businesses all over. a small business is 8 people or less. what states are you looking at? you hear that a lot in the news, but you never say specifics. small businesses as a whole -- what is his paycheck compared to

someone within the small business communities? i'm just curious. how can you say you are looking out for small businesses when his tax bracket is way different than those in those neighborhoods? host: kevin kuhlman? guest: our members are in all 50 states. we represent members in all 50 states and in every community. it is difficult to represent 50% of the economy. the small business owners of every different size, but we speak to our members every day, so we hear from there anecdotally as well. we advocate for the interest of all small businesses. host: let's go to our lando in georgia -- orlando in georgia. orlando, what is your business? caller: i am a truck driver. when do you think feel prices

will be going back down a dollar or two? guest: i wish i could predicted that. i think the inflation numbers for last month hampered a little bit. fuel prices are back up near record highs. i worry about that eating up. during the summer season when people may be traveling more for business or personal use, the price at the pump is putting a damper on business owners and consumers alike. i do not know when they go down -- they will go down. caller: if they take the gas, do you think it is a possibility that joe biden will take the gas tax off? guest: it is kind of a global market.

i think a temporary suspension of the gas tax would dampen or lower the price. the problem would be if global markets continue to have disruption and the price continues to go up despite that relief. on the sunday shows they were saying maybe they will look at it. it is up to congress. it is a possibility. i do not know if it is a probability at this point in time. the gas tax might be one of those considerations. host: when small business owners talk about the outlook not being good in 6 months, what could be the fallout of that? layoffs? what will small businesses have to do? host: at a minimum -- guest: at a minimum, they are not going to grow, they are not going to hire new employees. the fear is, if we do get into a

longer recession, then comes layoffs, then comes even more problematic issues similar to that. host: the unemployment rate is at 3.6%. you had 428,000 jobs added in april. why is that not good news? guest: there are still -- it is still not enough, unfortunately. half of business owners cannot fill open positions and fewer are planning to create new jobs in the immediate and distant future. there are warning signs out there. it is important they are still creating jobs. a little further out, that may not be the environment. even then they cannot fill the open positions they do have. some are having to limit their hours, turned on projects, things you do not want to be

happening. host: rhonda in freehold, new jersey. caller: good morning. i want to give a quick shout out to c-span. you -- quick shout out to c-span. you are helping us to talk to our brothers and sisters across the country and get a proper perspective on how people feel. my question is, what have they done with the money we have given them with the stimulus package? my son works for the union. they lock you in where he cannot get another job because he works for a union and no one will hire him because when the union calls you, you have to go back to work. my son builds bridges. he just had twins! they got all this stimulus money from the federal government, but

where are the jobs? what did they do with the money? i want to know. host: let's take that point. guest: rhonda, from the business owner perspective, early in the pandemic, congress passed the cares act that created the paycheck protection act. that was administered through banks and it had requirements on it. you had to use at least 75% and then a drop down to 60% of that to pay employees. you could use some of that for overhead costs. that was a lifeline for small business owners. three quarters of small businesses took advantage of the ppp and as a result they were able to keep their employees. that was important when finding qualified employees is so difficult now.

the other program was the e idl program. that was a low interest a long-term loan after people utilized ppp. it shut down in 2021. communication was not great from sba in that regard. we did hear some complaints, but about a third of small businesses took advantage of those long-term low-interest loans. while those programs are in the rearview mirror at this point in time, they were very beneficial to small business owners. there were a bunch of other stimulus programs for individuals and for unemployment insurance, but the real small business ones worthy paycheck protection program and the