colby and csis's mark cancion -- mark cancian join us. be sure to join with your calls, text and tweets. host: this is the washington journal for may 20 fifth. 19 children and two adults are dead after that deadly school shooting in texas. president biden and several members of congress calling for renewed efforts on gun control. share your thoughts on the shooting by calling the line for the eastern and central time zones, (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific time zones,

(202) 748-8001. to show you the headlines, the dallas morning news with their headline. 19 children and two adults killed in the shooting. suspect dead. the massacre of young children was another gruesome moment for a country scarred by a ceaseless string of mass shootings. the headline, enough is enough. the subhead saying that offers -- officers reportedly killing the 18-year-old government paid that as parents awaited news, residents processed their shock. in other headlines it was the president himself going before cameras.

this is the headline from bloomberg. you can see that for statement from the president at c-span.org . >> as a nation we have to ask when in god's name are we going to stand up to the gun lobby. when in god's name we do what we all know needs to be done. this is 3000 -- 10 years since i stood up at a high school -- a great school in connecticut. where another gunman massacred 26 people including 21st graders -- 20 first graders at sandy hook elementary school. since then there have been over 900 incidents.

marjory stoneman douglas high school. santa fe high school in texas. oxford high school in michigan. the list goes on and on. it grows when you include mass shootings at places like movie theaters, houses of worship. a grocery store in buffalo, new york. i am sick and tired of it. we have to act. and don't tell me you can't have an impact on this carnage. i spent my career as a senator and vice president working to pass common sense gun laws. we can't and won't prevent every tragedy. but we know they work and have positive impact. when we passed the assault weapons down, mass shootings went down. when the law expired, mass shootings tripled. the idea that an 18-year-old kid

can walk into a gun store and buy two assault weapons is just wrong. host: that's part of the statement from the president yesterday. you can see the full statement at c-span.org. you can comment on the events specifically occurring out of texas with that mass shooting had at an elementary school. you can reach out to us at (202) 748-8000 for the eastern and central time zones and (202) 748-8001 for mountain and pacific time zones. you can text us at (202) 748-8003 and as always you can post comments on our facebook and twitter feeds. one of the people also responding yesterday in the halls of congress was senator ted cruz. the business insider can up that story about comments made to cnn , saying senator ted cruz tuesday proposing in the wake of

that shooting that more armed officers be stationed at schools. he asserted that he did not believe gun control was a solution to halting gun violence. >> democrats and a lot of folks in the media whose immediate solution is to try to restrict constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens. that doesn't work. it's not effective. it doesn't prevent crime. host: jaclyn in ohio. europe first. caller: good morning. it's going to be a choice between morality and money. the manufacturers of these big

guns are making multiple aliens of dollars in profits and the lobbyists are funneling money into the campaign coffers of the politicians. and they like the money. the politicians love the money. and morality doesn't mean nothing. -- mean a thing. they can get up and talk about their thoughts and prayers. thoughts and prayers are going to do absolutely nothing to stop the carnage. they love the money and the money is going to win out again. we have no morality. we have no ethics. no compassion in this country. we have people like ted cruz who will take the money and smile all the way to the bank. or cornet or whatever his name is, the other senator from

texas. i'm an old lady. i'm 84 years old. host: we are going to go to sterling, virginia. andrew. you are next. caller: please hear me on this and please don't cut me off. i wish i could say good morning, but it's anything but. once again we wake up this morning to the news of another horrific school shooting that has left at least 19 innocent children and two teachers dead at the hands of another gun loving psychopath. only in america does this happen on a regular basis. no parent should have to worry about sending their child to school with the fear that they will be murdered. no preschooler should have to participate in active shooter drills as part of the school curriculum. once again, this massacre could have been prevented if not for the blind ambition, the quest for power and the cowardice of republican lawmakers. mcconnell and every republican in congress have blood on their

hands this morning. their fealty to their nra donors and their blood money for their reelections has resulted in this tragedy. for years democrats have attempted to pass common sense gun laws only to have it die in the senate without a single republican vote. these republican cowards would rather submit to mcconnell and protect these beautiful innocent children and the americans who have died from racially motivated gun violence. host: william in orange park, florida. good morning. caller: i don't know what to say to these idiots. i really don't. when i was going to school, i'm 76 years old. when i was going to school, you had to hit a bar to lock the door from the inside. then the door opened up. why can't they put them back on the schools?

put the lock on the inside. it can't be opened from the outside. these idiots saying guns -- are they nuts? what if one of the guys took a knife and cut everybody up? would that satisfy them? host: that's william in orange park, florida. a major debate on and control -- gun control -- chuck schumer will be under heavy pressure to bring a gun control measure to the floor before the july 4 recess. everyone of us should be put on the record. senator blumenthal -- the

members of congress already taking heat for not having a serious debate on gun control measures since 2013 after sandy hook. estella from oregon. go ahead please. caller: good morning. i don't think more gun control is going to stop any of this. i remember when i was a kid, everybody had their guns in their trucks. you got out of school, you took off, you shot at cans and stuff. those days are definitely over. i don't think more gun control is going to help, taking people's guns away or gun rights. i think instead of sending all those billions of dollars all over the world and we had just this lockdown over covid, they

were so worried about kids breathing on each other. why don't they secure these schools better? it shouldn't matter what grade or how old they are. they all should be very well protected. there's no reason why you can't nowadays with all the new technology. i think they just need to get together and do this. it shouldn't be republican and democrat. it shouldn't have anything to do with that nowadays it's always democrat, republican, black, white. it's how they keep everything stirred up and divided. they need to put their money where their mouth is. taking care of these kids. host: one of the reactions came from john cornyn yesterday. he's quoted saying the shooting is every parent and teachers worst nightmare. no child or teacher should ever have to wonder -- my heart goes

out to the hospital receiving care. the loved ones who lost their lives. as a parent the pain they must be feeling is unimaginable. i'm grateful to everyone who worked to stop the shooter and the medical staff working to prevent further loss of life. from new york, we will hear next from sean. caller: i have a 4-year-old and a 7-year-old. i'm in new york. it seems like these schools are definitely unprotected in terms of the doors being unlocked. anybody could walk into the schools. these schools are definitely not properly secured with armed guards or anything, especially public schools. not only that, i do believe

there is a humongous problem in this country with kids who are on these psychotropic drugs. they are taking all kind of pills. i listens to the president this morning and he didn't even address the fact that these people are taking very hard pharmaceutical drugs, and this is a humongous problem in this country in terms of just pharmaceutical drugs and how they are using them this country has a sickness at this point with how we are dealing with this. they want to bring up gun control and things like that the guns are a tool just like a car. you can do irrevocable damage with the car.

it doesn't matter the tool really. i agree that it's a dangerous tool, but in responsible hands, these are the people who need to be protecting the kids. caller: the state of south carolina has pretty much stepped up to the plate. we have 304 resource officers in every school. every other state should do the same. host: that's david's thoughts and south carolina. you can add yours as well if you want to give us a call. (202) 748-8000 eastern and central time zones, (202) 748-8001 mountain and pacific time zones. hill reported that a compromise can control measure crafted in

the aftermath sandy hook by senators joe manchin and pat toomey failed in the senate in 2013. that was a 54-46 vote. four democrats who are no longer in office joined republicans to block the legislation. no major national legislation to increase gun control has succeeded in the decades since despite numerous democratic politicians including president biden calling for bands on sales of assault style weapons and other measures. longtime gun control advocate senator chris murphy took to the floor just minutes after the shooting. here is senator murphy's comments from yesterday. >> what are we doing? what are we doing? just days after shooter walked into a grocery store to gun down african-american patrons, we have another sandy hook on our

hands. what are we doing? there were more mass shootings than days in the year. our kids are living in fear. everything the time they set foot in the classroom because they think they are going to be next. what are we doing? why do you spend all this time running for the united states senate? why do you go through all the hassle of getting this job, of putting yourself in a position of authority, if your answer as the slaughter increases and our kids and for their lives, we do nothing? what are we doing? why are you here? if not to solve a problem as existential as this?

this isn't inevitable. these kids weren't unlucky. this only happens in this country. and nowhere else. nowhere else to little kids go to school thinking that they might be shot that day. nowhere else to parents have to talk to their kids as i have had to do about why they got slapped into a bathroom and told to be quiet for five minutes just in case a bad man entered that aldean. what else does that happen except here in the united states of america, and it is a choice. it is our choice to let it continue. what are we doing? in sandy hook elementary school, after those kids came back into those classrooms, they had to adopt practice in which there would be a safe word that the

kids would say if they started to get thoughts in their brain about what they saw that day. if they started to get nightmares during the day, reliving stepping over their classmates bodies as they tried to flee the school. in one classroom, that word was monkey. and over and over through the day, kids would stand up and yell monkey. and a teacher or paraprofessional would have to go over to that kid, take them out of the classroom and talk to them about what they had seen, work them through their issues. sandy hook will never be the same. this community in texas will never be the same. why? why are we here? host: you can see more from senator chris murphy at c-span.org. as far as initial reaction to the shooting in texas, from pennsylvania we will hear from ray.

caller: i have a couple of things i would like to go over. first of all, i don't know what i want to call them who came on a few calls before me and said psychotropic drugs was causing all the problems, in the 60's there were more psychotropic drugs taken than any time in history and i didn't hear many massacres back then like they have now. the second thing is i heard him say good guys with guns should take care of the bad guys. texas has millions and millions and millions of good guys with guns. what happened in texas? maybe they can explain that thirdly, if you want to stop the gun violence, you do what we do with other areas. we have shown dead babies in syria, dead bodies in war zones. the first persons to be in those schools should be people with cameras and they should show what these guns do to real bodies. show them on tv. show them to everybody.

rick them see it. we never get to see it. we only hear about it. show them a few times. put it up in the senate when what's his name, cancun cruz is talking. put it behind him. show the bodies and maybe something will happen. host: dug in staten island is next. caller: that morning. thank you for c-span. i don't know how much time you will allot me, that i want to say i'm a former educator. i used to work with elementary, early childhood and physically challenged develop mentally disabled children. i remember the trauma that they went through after 9/11. we unfortunately had three students that lost their parents. one of them lost both of their parents at my school. it stayed with them for a very long time.

if i could dispel a few myths about what i've heard so far. good guys with guns stop bad guys. we need more police officers. in buffalo, there was a retired police officer there who shot the guy, but because he was so kevlar vested, he wasn't able to stop him. at this shooting here in texas, there was a former sheriff who was there on the premises. he shot at him. two officers had responded and they shot him and this guy still got into the school. the school itself has a series of entrances and exits which you are supposed to be not able to get through. somehow he got through those. so all these things about your safety and more police officers and good guys to stop bad guys, it's really a false narrative.

mr. cruz will be starring as the headline speaker at the national rifle association on fridayweek. 275 miles away from the school where we shot in texas. senator cornyn was supposed to be a speaker, but he said he has something personal that has just come up and he won't be able to make it. he needs to stay in washington, d.c. -- the american public say something is rational, we should do it. we shouldn't be held hostage by one party of republicans in the senate.

host: that's dug in new york. -- saying that governor greg abbott at the time, including the list of senators cornyn and cruz were scheduled to attend the nra convention in houston. that's the story from the nbc affiliate in dallas. let's hear from susan in maryland. go ahead. caller: i just want to say that that last color makes a lot of sense. a majority of gun owners today, they really want to see something like background checks , but they are prevented i the senate. but the house has passed a number of gun check legislations but they have stalled in the senate did here we go again with another gun shooting. buffalo and those people who were killed because of their race.

and now we have as many as 10 people are dead because of an 18-year-old kid in texas. can legally go into a store and buy two ar-15 assault rifles. these rifles were specifically made for war. they weren't made for shooting. domestically. and all i can say is nothing will be done. they will be some legislation introduced in the congress but it won't pass. and a couple of weeks from now we will forget all about this and move onto to the next story. and nothing is going to be done until i think this generation dies out and maybe the next generation will actually do something. but right now the nra controls and you will have a number of congressmen including trump going before that thing and shedding their crocodile tears about how awful it was but

saying, we are going to fight for you. host: here is jim in ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. real briefly, i'm not making light of what happened yesterday in texas. i realized that with the nra being so strong, that what's going to happen is we're never going to have any kind of legislation being passed. my wife in her written letter to one of the senators from ohio, the fact that the vote went wrong against the automatic weapons. we should have a barney law. that means everybody is allowed one bullet and that's it. we can't aluminate these guns because of course the nra is so strong. but if we eliminate the bullets, then they can't worry about going into schools or grocery stores or anyplace. if they only have one bullet they are not going to do anything. that's all i have to say.

host: that's jim in ohio. scores of mass shootings have occurred since sandy hook including the 2018 shooting that killed 17 at marjory stoneman douglas high school in part, florida. the shooting the same year that killed tang at santa fe high school in new mexico. some of the sandy hook families say they can predict the nation's reaction, which veronica taylor osaka, the mother of the youngest child to die a new tenant described on tuesday as unfortunately a state of paralysis. because they involved children, they stoped anguished debate over gun policies and legislation. that's just some of the other related topics comes to the shooting.

you can respond on our phone lines. we will go next to gary from north carolina. go ahead please. caller: my point is this. there's not a lot of mass shooting. there are a lot of school mass shootings. it's gotten to be some kind of a cult thing to pick schools. if we were to go to harden these buildings, it would just move to shopping centers, malls, playgrounds some other thing. but the reason why it is schools is because it gets so much attention. when people want the attention, they target a school. and who's in school, kids. so what's happening is because

the current uproar about it and the way to get attention. by the time you harden schools, they can just move over to -- i'm not going to mention any names, but a store type things. and they get popular. the colts target will just shift. so it will be playing workable chasing around and planting a cop in front of the building to protect it, he's vulnerable. people can just walk up and sneak up on him. just his presence wouldn't be a deterrent because the nature of the attack is so sneaky. he wouldn't stand a chance. he would just be a sitting duck and that comment about the one bullet thing, there are so many

bullets out there. what we need to do is get rid of these videogames, the music that glorifies it. just the culture. it needs to start there because these kids are impressionable and they are all the same age that are doing it. host: lets you david in riverside, cal on you. caller: thank. it's a very sad thing to happen. it reminds you of sandy hook. any time someone comes into an elementary school and shoots children, it's incredibly sad. the problem is what to do about it. the congressman was saying in nowhere else in the world as this happened than in america. i wonder does it happen in china where there's 1.4 billion people? no. because they have no freedom at all. we have the second amendment that protects our freedom.

that's for self-governing people. john adams said our constitution would only work for of religious and moral people. it wouldn't work for people who tooviolent video games, yes. that didn't happen in the 1950's or 1960's. we've gone so far away from that. we are reaping what we sold -- so. host: we will continue on until 8:00. you can follow us on the phone or text lines, and you can post on her social media sites at facebook or twitter. we will report about president biden's nominees for the bureau of tobacco and firearms, and explosives. they write that this is the most

public part of the effort to become only the second person to run the complement -- gauntlet. a political high wire act that went over the senate judiciary kitty -- committee. there was a resurgence in mass shootings that will likely dominate the hearing. senators will question after a gunman killed 14 students at the time of reporting. the texas shooting comes a little less than 10 years after sandy hook elementary in newtown connecticut. a shooter killed 26 students and teachers, and there is more to that hearing, particularly with the president's nominee with the atf. stay close to c-span for that hearing. we will hear the nominees thoughts, much like the issue of the newsroom, yesterday, which will be brought up during the hearing. this is robert and marilyn. go ahead. -- robert in maryland created go ahead. caller: how are you?

you just talked about $40 billion in the ukraine? why can't we take that money and send it to all of the counties and all of the school systems to allocate for private security and private arm securities. that is for every school in the country. it is pretty simple. after classes started, all of the doors are locked in order to enter the school, you must go to security to get into the school. it would be pretty simple, to me. my question is, what are young kids doing. how do they get here? they seem to be from another country. why don't we discuss that? host: governor abbott brought that up in his comments. caller: where they brought here

by illegals? and the government is trying to manufacture a depression. they are destroying this country from within and every which way. you have every bit of evidence with baby formula, gas, everything you need to know. it is a manufactured depression. host: will leave it there. joseph in virginia, go ahead. caller: good morning. punish the person, not the gun. where were the parents of both of these guys? the guy in buffalo and the guy yesterday? what do their families look like because this is where the problem is. you cannot legislate craziness. my gun rights are to protect me and my family from crazy people like that. the fbi, who were on the list, at the hospital.

we have background checks. i have plenty of guns. you cannot buy a gun without going through a background check. even if you buy a gun online, the online place has to send it to a physical location where you go through a background check. i saw the senator -- from connecticut. spouting off the mouth. we must give up our protections. you must give up the assault style weapon. your security detail carries this. if you're going to disarm us, you must walk down the street disarmed. there were crazy people out here, and you know what? i live in stafford, virginia. you know how many people got murdered with an assault style weapon last year? none.

zero. host: ok. charlene in indiana. go ahead. caller: i just want the people who have this pro-gun stance and assault rifle stance that their arguments are not holding up, and they sound lame and hollow. if guns made us all safer, we would be the safest country in the world, and we are not. one more thing. vote. vote these people out. if we can gain two seats in the senate, we can take care of a lot of things. it's not going to change until we vote these idiots out. thank you. host: robert is next. robert is in pennsylvania. hello. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: guns are not the problem. the problem is that the candidate, when it was burning down in 2020, he never came out

to condemn the violence. not one time. his vice presidential running mate, started a fund to bailout all of the troublemakers so they could come and continue to burn down the next day. he created mated that she created the environment and the atmosphere. the chickens have come to roost. host: how do you account for mass shootings before the bind administration? caller: it is still democratic policies. not pursuing crime. it's no jail, no bail, and get out the next day. that's been their motive. for a lot of this, it was created, and you can get up on a podium and scream and yell all you want, but i don't believe a word he says. i don't believe what a congressman says. he is a pathological liar.

he is not happy unless he is lying to us. host: we will hear next from tom in oregon. go ahead. caller: there was a caller a couple of calls back, and a couple of other ones -- the guns are the problem. if you put a gun on a table and have people walk back and forth and back and forth, what is the gun doing? nothing. so it is not the gun. i haven't heard anyone say anything about the criminals that have hardened in their intent to hurt someone. they already have guns by however they get it. it's time to either put the police back on the street since they are not going to do that,

then give armed weapons to responsible people because of a person wants to do any kind of a mass shooting, it goes into a building and has a pretty good idea that seven or eight people out of every 10 as some sort of a weapon. he is probably not going to want to go in there, and he is going to go where hopefully hardly anyone has a gun. it's time to arm the people so they can defend themselves, their homes, their families, and if someone else is in danger, then everybody needs to have a gun. host: let's hear from kelly and alabama. caller: thank you for taking my call.

i am not going to go down the lane that everyone -- we can have eight gun debate. it seems like both sides. this is a little bit of personal information. my husband committed suicide five years ago. when the toxicology came back, it shocked me. all of the things that were in him. i young man on the program on medication. i would like, maybe, i never hear certain things like maybe autopsies, possibly with this young man. possibly, i mean, there's the gun debate. everything. what was it exactly that caused him to kill his grandmother? were there -- was there math in his system? was there alcohol?

was there psychotropic drugs? was theirs annexed? -- was there xanax? there is a lot to be said about -- i mean, there is a lot to be said, but also, i think, what is in that person's system? you can look at their website or their social interactions. but i also think it is important for people who are substance abusers, a lot of them will tell you that they have said and done things that they absolutely cannot remember recall. i think this may be important. what is in the system? host: dennis kelly in alabama. one of the people responding to the news coverage history was greg abbott. >> however, that is when parents

drop their kids off at school, they have every expectation to know that they are going to pick their children up. when a school day ends. and there are families who are in morning right now. in the state of texas. it is in morning with them. the reality that these parents are not going to be able to pick up their children. our job is to multifold. we must address what exactly happened at this crime scene, and to take this information and do everything that is necessary to ensure that the crime scenes like this are not going to be repeated in the future. and we are going to ensure the safety and security of our schools. host: robert in louisiana. caller: good morning morning brad how are you? it is a sad day in america. all of these shootings.

this has gone along. you don't even have to have them. you don't have to have an idea if you have a gun or maybe, anybody can get a gun. this is washing across all of america, and our schools in the 70's and 80's, we did not have to lock down the schools just for people who were going to school. now you have to lock down the whole school. school is like a jail. this is gotten out of hand. they want to blame it on joe biden. they want to blame it on obama. they want to blame it on the nra. they just want guns or everybody to walk around with, like the wild wild west. if you live in the wild wild west right now, every -- this is not the last one. there's going to be another gun shooting. in the next couple of weeks, i guarantee it, because it could

be in another school. it could be at the white house prayed we don't know. but you have to barricade the white house right now because of the insurrection we had. now, we have a lot of people -- this country was attacked by insurrectionists. host: worthington, pennsylvania. you are next up. hello. caller: i hear this, and hello? hello? yes? they're all these shootings and stuff here. hello? hello. they're all these shootings going on. i'm going to keep blaming the gun and not the person. we have all of these ideas as to why this is happening. back in the 1970's, we never had the shootings. we were raised that if you did something wrong, you were

punished at home for doing something wrong. now, i see all of these kids being shot in the back. we have shootings every day on the news. it is really sad because those parents have feelings about losing their kids. we have these drive-by shootings . it is about -- it is not about the gun. if it wasn't the gun, it would be a vehicle or a knife, other than these guns. we have to get our country straightened out. our kids don't have rules anymore. they get to be the boss of the bus driver. nobody has authority over kids anymore. this is coming from -- we were not going to tell our children know anymore. you cannot discipline your kids. were wondering why we have such a problem. legislators don't listen to what the public is asking for or saying.

there is no american dream anymore. we can't go by vehicle because we cannot afford it. where are they american dreams for young kids? we need a reason to grow up and be a good citizen. host: wanda in pennsylvania. a couple of you are commenting via text and tweet. here's one from north dakota saying that we have drug commercials and media and violence. anything goes with entertainment. it contributes to a mental instability and disregard. this is joe louis off of arch twitter feed saying i don't want to hear people blaming video games or lack of religion or user. i don't want to hear them blaming mental illness. many people suffer from mental illness and they don't kill innocent kids. the problem is proliferation of assault weapons. and guns. if you want to comment, or if you want to send us a texas morning, (202) 748-8003.

francis is next to michigan. [indiscernible] you know they can, but they won't. i'm getting tired of hearing these kids getting killed all the time. thank you. host: we will hear from chris and eugene, oregon. caller: can you hear me? i have a question for this office here. since when is it ok, as a teacher, right? since when is it ok to go into a school and murder 19 kids and a couple of teachers? [indiscernible] guns don't pill people. of course not. since when is it ok for some

lunatic in two days later, mark my words, it never happened. move on. since when is it ok for some lunatic to go into a school and murder 19 kids, two teachers? host: this is iona in oregon. caller: hello. i want to extend my support to all of the school districts that have violence perfection programs, and the ones i am familiar with started in preschool and kindergarten. they identify students that are having trouble with behavior and

empathy. from there, we have the first steps in the second step to prevent with this program. it began in eugene, oregon, and it is a program that works. it is by research. the second part is, working with parents and doing the assessment. if the student needs a small group, it would be five students. the school counselor, one school counselor, one teacher -- works with teachers and parents, just for a small classroom. at the most, 10, depending on what the situation is with the student. so, yes, both times, counselors working with parents and teachers, and also consulting with the school psychologist. it works.

it's something -- it's helped so many. host: iona giving us a call about a shooting in texas. you can comment on the remainder of the time up until 8:00. for those of you in the eastern and central time zones, (202) 748-8000, and in the mountain and pacific time zones, (202) 748-8001. there were primaries in the west yesterday, and we will give you a snapshot of the results. here's reporting out of atlanta. governor brian kemp easily dispatched his hand-picked donald trump challenger and a republican primary that limited the presidents conspiracy fueled politics in a critical swing state. kit -- stacey abrams will face him in one of the most controversial decisions. the republican results combined

with the loss -- the presidents backhanded rebuke for the former president prioritized almost all others. the anger from the governor's refusal to overturn the election results in 2020 in georgia, because president trump to recruit someone to challenge the sitting governor. looking at the senate, this is from w mag. herschel walker reports that president trump wants to win eight primary, anti-incumbent will be facing walker, he he defeated five fellow republicans, including the erik paulsen culture commissioner and a former trump official and navy veteran. out of texas, taking a look at that. the last antiabortion democrat in the u.s. house of

representatives declared victory in a narrow primary race. they refused to concede as the race was separate by less than 200 votes with all counties reporting their votes. the election is still close to call and we are waiting for every eligible ballot and eligible votes to be counted. in a tweet short after, it was said that the representative declared himself a winner. their story from the texas tribune says it was just before midnight that the representative led by a narrow 177 votes. we will talk about those results, just to give you a snapshot of what is going on from yesterday. politically, this is richmond virginia, keith. hello. caller: i just wanted to chime in this morning. i got up this morning and listened to you all as you came on, and i was aware of this because it is all on the news,

but i just want to say a few things if i could. if you give me a moment. i just want to say this whole thing about this discussion -- i guess ludicrous. we talk about this year after year. month after month. now it is week after week we are talking about this thing with the shootings. i just think it is time that as americans, we just grow up and we try to come together. there are a couple of comments i want to make about this. i try not to be too harsh. i want you to understand that, first of all, from the other callers, we cannot turn out schools -- our schools into prisons to protect our kids. we don't want that in america. we don't want to have our kids going to schools and be on lock down until the end of the day just because we are afraid. what is america going to turn into?

if this is the case, second, i just want to just prepare something for the conscious understanding of what is going on right now. if you are a producer you could come up with all of the gun violence shootings in the last 10 years. the people could just really see what is happening in our country. you hear about a shooting and you forget about it. you hear about it and you forget about it. but if you had all the facts and put them in front of somebody, they might be smart enough to really say ok. it is time to do something. host: we will hear from doug in new jersey. hello. caller: i was just wondering, and maybe i missed the details, but in new jersey, you cannot walk into a school. it there was a lock, you would have to be buzzed in. i am wondering if it is different in texas, or how the shooter got in. i don't know the details of it

after that. can you help me with that? host: let's go to maryland. go ahead. caller: good morning. [indiscernible] the constitution protects all of us. i see stuff like this, and it makes me sick. in most cases, politicians say they are going to fix it. ordinary u.s. citizens will fix it. they won't let stuff like this happen. people sit there and say guns don't kill, it is the people. there are so many people in other countries that don't have these problems, but because they don't have access to guns, they don't die like this.

they don't use a gun, and they key is knives or a car, but yes, but how many people can you kill with a knife compared to a gun? it is only in america that everybody were almost everybody owns a gun. we are not any war zone. this is a free country where you can walk without thinking that somebody is going to shoot me. i should be free from that. this makes me think that this is not a police issue. this is common sense. it is not fixing the politicians. it is like minimum wage. if you paid a politician minimum wage, everyone would get a better pay. host: let's go to james in arkansas. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am a disabled combat veteran from vietnam. i've used weapons of the war. i've had them used on me.

i want to say something about the first amendment. a politician quoted the first to mimic, but they ignore the second part. it is a well regulated militia pretty here's what you do. if you go to buy a gun, you have to prove that you are a member of a militia as the constitution states. how many of you gun owners are in a well regulated militia? zero. you want to read the first part of the second amendment, but not the second part. it says in a well regulated militia. otherwise, you cannot own a gun. thank you. host: tonya from virginia, go ahead. caller: good morning pa thank you for taking my call. i am very angry and very sad this morning. we are discussing this again. [indiscernible] i remember watching the story

about children being killed. we have a mental illness problem in this country. i want families males, young men, who are lonely and need mental help, and i need them to get that help today because this cannot keep on going. how can an 18-year-old who doesn't have a job by a gun that is between 500 and $1200. we have a problem in this country. we cannot let our babies be slaughtered at school. i am angry and i am sad, and we need to get together and get our sick children help. that is all i need to say. [indiscernible] thank you. host: we will hear from cisco in wyoming. go ahead. cisco in wyoming. caller: it's a sad day here.

hello. can you hear me? hear me? host: go ahead. caller: it's a sad day in wyoming. i am talking. can you hear me? host: you're listening to your television. listen to the phone. go ahead with your comment. let's go one more call. catherine in illinois. hello. caller: good morning. i just have a real simple comment. i have a son who lives and works in the czech republic. yes a 3.5-year-old. he is already told me, mother, i am not going to raise my son in the united states and go to schools that have gun symbols on walls, and they do preventative drills for all sorts of things like don't shoot me, and the kids in the rest of the world, they go to schools to learn. they are not in fear.

it -- how can we stand this? we are looking for people in the united states. that is all i wanted to say, and god bless everybody. host: catherine finishing off this hour on texas school shootings. again, you can see more of the comments from members of congress on this, and president biden. our website is c-span.org. one of the things we will talk about in the remainder of this show is the baby formula shortage. joining us is scott lincicome from the cato institute. later on in the program we will turn our attention to america's support of the ukraine. those conversations coming up on

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washington journal continues. host: joining us now is scott lincicome. thank you for coming on the program. guest: my pleasure. host: when you take a look at these larger aspects of economics and trade how do those things factor into what is going on with baby formula in the united states? guest: unfortunately, we have put to very high walls around the united states in terms of importing baby formula. most baby formulas have tariffs of 17.5%. we renegotiated nafta to include restrictions on imported infant

formula from canada. even our free trade agreement partners have restrictions on selling in the united states. the fda regulates the importation and sale in the united states and that is fine. the issue is that the regulations are so strict for foreign manufacturers, very few manufacturers are willing to go through the hassle and effort to get inspected every year and file the paperwork. as a result of these big walls around the country, 98% of all infant formula is made in the united states. that is good for u.s.

manufacturing bed in a time of shortage, it makes it difficult for the market to adapt. there is no flexibility or ability to supplement domestic shortage when we had that facility closed out in michigan. those two things are compounded by a third factor. we have a welfare program that provides vouchers for mom to buy infant formula. the way the program is designed, it makes wic the largest consumer in the united states. it accounts for half of all infant formula sales in the united states. wic requires manufacturers to provide low prices. that is great for consumers and

taxpayers but it does not encourage manufacturers from investing in entering this market. the program also awards sole-source contracting. it also gives you when it's in the non-wic market. we have a concentrated market with only three brand name manufacturers in the united states. one big generic producers in those account for 90% of all sales in the united states. abbott the facility that had the recall and issues with the fda turned out to be the largest wic contract holder and the largest player in the u.s. market overall. when abbott started having problems combined with the

pandemic related issues, it was a recipe for disaster. host: our guest is with us until 8:45. if you have had problems with baby formula you can call (202) 748-8000, for new parents (202) 748-8001 and you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. with the fda commissioner before congress last week the topic was baby formula. i want to play you what he had to say about it and get your response. [video clip] the united states was facing stress before the shutdown. i can assure you that the fda has been working tirelessly to address this issue.

this week we set up a mechanism that streamlines the ability that does not usually sell baby formula in this country to do so and provides flexibility to domestic producers. infant formula would only be imported after the agency reviews the product. safety is paramount. in addition, under the consent degree abbott has agreed to take actions overseen by the fda that will result in an increase of infant formula products. as you also know, the president invoked the defense production act to make sure that they have enough ingredients to make boy be formula at home.

and to speed up the import of infant formula to stores. we know many parents and caregivers are frustrated. we anticipate that additional products can hit u.s. stores. we have an opportunity to invest in the fda's ability to invest in partners, and provide infant formulas to so formula -- infants who depend on them. we have no authority to monitor and respond to supply chain constrictions. this has shown us the danger of having a single manufacturer

sees production. we could be one natural disaster from being here again. host: he blamed it on a host of reasons, what do you think of those? guest: the pandemic related supply chain issues that have been going on since spring of 2020 are a factor here. before the abbott shut down, there was stressors on the market. what is left out of that speech is that the fda was effectively banning the importation of infant formula to the united states up until this latest crisis. he mentioned that they would streamline importation. up until a few weeks ago, the

fda was actively seizing infant formula at the border and destroying it. it is a welcome thing to hear from the fda that they are going to allow imports of more supplied. it is a welcome change and i understand that today there will be more announcements on the import side. that begs the question, we must ask why are we in this situation now? why are we scrambling and why wasn't the market open and available for the supplies before the crisis? normal markets adjust pretty quickly and in a lot of other areas of the market. the market adjusted quickly, there might be shortages on shelves for a couple of days, weeks but not the 2, 3 months we are hearing from abbott and fda

officials and that is a testament that real resiliency comes from having a diverse supplier base in the united states and abroad and having an open trade environment. we are not talking about importing baby formula from china. we are talking about the regulatory competency of the european union, canada, the u.k.. europe makes a todd of baby formula. it is in high demand among american moms who found that it works better among their babies. the fda has banned that product until very recently when the crisis hit. how do we prevent the next crisis, not scramble to solve

this current one? host: the testimony said they could offer diversity, why not offer that before this occurs? guest: exactly. they will allow for the mutual recognition. the fda acknowledges the competency of the european union regulators. it allows american consumers to have that choice. and not only pleases consumers but makes the market more stable. legislation has been put forward to reform the wake program. not to abolish the program but to change it so that consumers can buy any formula they want so it is not the sole-source contracting that makes such a concentrated market. the federal trade commission

will investigate the formula market and i was pleased to say that tariffs, trade barriers and the wake program --wic program were up for investigation. resiliency comes from having an open, flexible market that requires low trade barriers as well. host: scott lincicome from the cato institute. if you could describe the point of view you take on these matters? guest: we are a libertarian nonprofit that supports free markets, individual liberty, rights and supports the constitution. my personal background is

economic studies and trade. host: let's hear from melissa on our line for others. go ahead. caller: good morning. i have a question for mr. lincicome, what role does the lack of oversight from the fda play? abbott was forced into a recall because of a whistleblower that the formula was made in unsanitary conditions and those caused. guest: abbott is not saying that there was any wrongdoing on

their part. the fda is still looking into it. what we can say about this, we have all of the elements of a concentrated markets with powerful players and we might have regulatory capture. that can cause a lapse of oversight and mishaps to occur on the regulatory side of things. the question we have to ask, why is this market so concentrated? why does abbott have this market power? if there is regulatory capture, how did this happen? if we dig deeper, there are a lot of government policies that gave them this kind of power. the trade barriers, the wic

program etc.. host: this is from calvin from new york. caller: you are talking about these formulas. formulas didn't come into practice into the 60's and 70's. we existed on carnation milk. host: that is calvin. guest: as a dad myself who had a child on formula a lot of parents rely on formula, their babies need a slightly different type of food in those early days. a lot of these formulas are helpful for parents. the other thing that is important to note, you can't

easily switch back and forth. that has been wreaking havoc in the market. consumers get worried and they end up porting a little bit more. that has added even more stress on the market. host: you talked about tariffs, 17.5 percent tariff, how did it get so high? guest: years and years of lobbying by the u.s. dairy industry and abbott itself applauded the barriers in nafta. a group of domestic producers and abbott want protection from import competition. they request the imposition of a tariff and it was put in place legislatively. the united states has mechanism to apply different types of

tariffs upon request by domestic companies. host: (202) 748-8000 (202) 748-8000 again new parents all others (202) 748-8001. you wrote about the baby formula market and i am paraphrasing here, it was not what was in the formula but the labeling that was the big issue, can you explain that? guest: some of those fda regulations are about nutrition. european formula is just as nutritious. a lot of the problems are the label being written in german instead of english or the scoop size being different or needing a different amount of water per scoop.

third-party retailers who are importing european formula were provided translated instructions. they were solving these problems without the fda's help. the fda was not having that and ask the retailer to issue a recall. and had custom sees a lot of european formula at the border. that doesn't make a lot of sense in the middle of a baby formula crisis. host: this is michelle from washington dc. caller: it is really good to hear, i want to share with you that wic is not a welfare

program. it is more specifically of food assistance program. i am an educator and a registered dietitian and i know the barriers that are there, if you can start reprocessing that wic is a food assistance program , a lot of people might think they are eligible. a lot of people are happy that you are addressing the shortage. we need to think about our babies, i appreciate your

interest. guest: one of the things mentioned there that is worth noting, wic is more than a welfare program. it has expanded dramatically over the years and that is one of the issues with the infant formula markets. wic started out as a small program, now it is a massive player in the u.s. market. what might've been ok in terms of things like sole-source contracts now does raise some economic problems. we have monopolies where there is a dominant consumer that can distort the market.

host: when it comes to the sole provider on the state level, what is the justification used to make the state rely on one supplier. guest: what states do is that they make companies bed for these wic contracts. you get to encourage companies to bid and offer low prices. manufacturers are providing below-market prices and their contracts. wic contractors know they get

benefits outside the wic program. whether it is shelf placement, companies want to have these contracts because of those benefits as well. and because of wic's sheer size. host: let's hear from stacy in providence. caller: why isn't there more advocacy for moms to be able to make formula on their own? why can't you make the ingredients more easily available so moms can make it on their own. it just makes me so angry.

guest: i don't have any expert tastes and making baby formula. when you have a more open market, you have a lot more choice in the types of products that consumers can buy. going back to europe, they have a lot of products made from goat's milk. when you have a market like the u.s. market, there is very little choice. it is just a few companies, a few products and you lack that type of experimentation and innovation in the market. host: mr. lincicome and the insider the house passed a bill

to help get more baby formula, a reaction from mitt romney "if i were buying infant formula but it is paying more money for the fda. we need to get the formula not more money for fda inspectors." guest: i agree with that pretty strongly. the problem on the import in trade side of things. the problem was that the fda was over regulating the market. by giving the fda more money without reforms, you are encouraging the very problems that caused this mess to begin with. host: we have a viewer from our

twitter stream. do you think the previous administrations ban of products from the north impacted this? guest: the tariffs that i mentioned on the european formula, those have been around for decades. while we can criticize the trump administration for squeezing the canadian market. this is a much bigger issue. this goes back a long way. my colleagues at cato have been writing about regulation for more than 20 years because this is such a long standing problem. host: let's talk to alan from

pennsylvania. caller: considering there are only four major companies that produce formula, would that not be considered a monopoly being that they won't let other companies joined the process of making baby formula? guest: the dictionary definition of a monopoly but we can call it a highly concentrated market. that does create some of the distortion that monopolies create. how did this market gets so concentrated? this is not the natural result of free markets or capitalism. there is a lot of government intervention that helped create this concentrated market that is now creating the problems we have. host: from john in washington

dc, you are next up. caller: i haven't heard anyone talking about breast milk. what percentage of new mothers use formula versus the free, natural, god-given baby milk for all mammals for all time? the fda is always looking for a way to profit off of something. mother's milk has all of the immunities, great flavor. he will never find a baby to turn away mothers milk. guest: my co-author noted that first so moms, that is not an option. while breast-feeding is great, it is not right for every body

and does not right for all babies. infant formula is an important alternative. by subsidizing infant formula, like wic does. host: if the president is using the defense protection act, what is the timeline before there could be a difference on store shelves? guest: i saw yesterday that the white house was saying that this was going to increase production. there wasn't really a timeline attached to that. the defense production act is a double-edged sword. the defense production act can

direct raw materials to the manufacturer. it is unclear to me whether there was a problem on the raw material side of things. this was far more about the manufacturing facilities themselves. the one in michigan getting shut down. the inability of other manufacturers to ramp up overnight. i am unclear how much fast tracking these raw materials will help things and how quickly it will happen. now that the government has intervened in that market, now that infant formula is considered a matter of national security, will this discourage additional investment in the sector? your product may be nationalized

and directed elsewhere. you have to be careful with the defense production act. host: we have been showing people the video of supplies coming in from the markets overseas. is that a sustainable approach? guest: we would need a lot more shipments like that to fill the market. if you look at the size of abbott and the amount of production that was occurring at that michigan facility, you would need dozens more of those shipments before you made a dent in the market. this goes back to the real problem that we have. this is a crisis that is years in the making. you cannot switch a flip -- flip a switch and have production overnight.

these things take time. when you have a crisis like we are having, you can't suddenly import millions of cans of baby formula. they occur more naturally. they will need a lot more shipments before they can make a dent. host: let's hear from margaret in delaware. caller: i am curious, everyone says it is price gouging. if it is price gouging, why did they wait until now to do it? but caller said that he is a libertarian. did he hear the democrats talking about libertarians?

guest: the issue with price gouging is that prices are just signals. when prices rise, it is a signal to consumers to cut back on buying so much. it is a signal to producers to invest and produce more. we want prices to react to supply and demand imbalances and encouraging or discouraging production/consumption. given the size of wic pricing doesn't work well because most of the market is effectively price controlled under wic the program. there are all of these regulatory and trade barriers

limiting it as well. host: from wisconsin, you're on next. caller: formula encourages more women to work in the workplace. cato was founded by the coke others. --koch brothers. host: do you have a question about this segment? caller: i think breastmilk should be used as often as possible. guest: i think it should be up to moms and their doctors. for me and my family, formula worked well but that is a choice that should be made by

individuals. our government should trust american parents more when it comes to the types of formula they want to consume. if moms want european formula, formula being regulated by european regulators, there is no good reason they should not be able to buy it. there is no good reason it should be seized at the border and destroyed. host: a workaround for parents, should they go overseas or elsewhere to buy formula? guest: these markets do exist. i also understand that large simpson -- shipments were being seized at the border. it has been tough for parents to access these supplies. given the change at the fda, i

really couldn't say. host: from juanita in ohio. caller: i have a question and a comment. my late aunt vivian could not take my great great grandmother's milk and they found formula for her. this is not a new problem. according to npr, are you telling me there are only nine inspectors, more inspectors would not be warranted? explain that to me please. guest: it seems the problem is

not merely about inspectors. whether this facility, whether there was a lapse at the fda with inspecting this facility, those issues in a normal and healthy market could be fixed by additional supplies, additional investment by imports and the rest. while another agent might've helped here and there, that is not what is causing our empty store shelves. we have a highly distorted market of infant formula and a market that can't adjust when crises happen. bad things happen, whether it is the war in ukraine and the markets tend to adjust when they

are allowed to. this market was just not allowed to. host: when it comes to the inspections, does the fda have a presence on site? guest: i can't walk you through the process. these facilities are inspected regularly and again, infant formula is one of the most highly regulated food substances we have which should give us a bit of pause. the problems we are having in this market just so happen to be in the market that is so highly regulated. host: this is maggie from augusta, georgia. caller: i am calling from the others. i am a grandmother who is

shopping in augusta and i am shipping it to my granddaughter in tampa. whenever i find a few cans i ship it to her. what really gets me is that the other day, they said it was dangerous to make homemade formula. my son was brought up on whole milk and caro syrup. why not put out a recipe for mothers to make their own formula? a baby has to eat. what do you do? host: thank you for calling. guest: the collar head on something there that is really

important for me to stress about this market. these types of crises can build on themselves. as the store starts to see if the shelves they get worried. when they get worried they buy extra. if everybody buys extra you have a tremendous spike in demand and that compounds the problem you are trying to solve. while i don't fault the scholar for buying formula and sending it to her daughter, it is those types of actions that are adding even more stress to the market. it is perfectly understandable and natural when it comes to formula and a baby's life. it is something that is causing additional stress. host: could there be other stresses to look out for?

guest: we are still on the tail end of a pandemic with all of the related pandemic shortages, labor issues as well. in this market, it is tough to ramp up supplies overnight. very tough to find the workers to do that. along with the ukraine situation that is causing an energy crisis and food crisis, those things are putting additional stress on this issue. that rabbit recall is just the straw that broke the camels back. given all of this regulation, it was difficult for that to get back up. host: this is tom from pennsylvania. caller: here is a loaded

question for you, how much of this has been exacerbated by the gop's program to underfund agencies so they can't function like they have done with the irs? guest: i will reiterate, the problem in the market is not a lack of funding for the fda. it is that 98% of domestic consumption is provided by thomistic producer and it is a highly concentrated market wic thanks to the wic program. normal markets respond rather quickly. this market cannot. that is not about fda funding,

it is about the wall we put around the country to block out imports. host:cato.org you can see the work lincicome of scott lincicome. host: we will do open phones until 9:15. later on, we will talk to america's ongoing support of ukraine. if you want to participate in open phones it is (202) 748-8000 free democrats, (202) 748-8001 for republicans and for independents (202) 748-8002. c-span has coverage of america's

response in ukraine. we also have international perspectives from the united nations and statements from foreign leaders. all on the c-span networks, the c-span now mobile app and c-span/ukraine where you can watch the latest videos on demand. go to c-span.org/ukraine. >> american history tv saturdays on c-span2 explore the people and events that tell the american story. a conversation with ulysses grant biographers along with retired general david petraeus commemorating the celebration of

grant's birth. leslie gordon on the reconstruction era south, the causes of the civil war as well as confederate statues. watch american history tv, saturdays on c-span two. or watch any time at c-span.org/history. there are a lot of places to get political information but only on c-span do you get it straight from the source. no matter where you are from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word, if it happens here, or here, or anywhere that matters, america's watching on c-span. >> washington journal continues.

host: you can participate in this open forum by texting us at (202) 748-8003. georgia announcing that stacey abrams will face a rematch with incumbent governor brian kemp. she accused him of perpetuating discriminatory voting practices. since then, she has become a leading votes rights activist. she has helped deliver georgia to joe biden. we will go through more of yesterday's primary results in four states throughout our open forum. you can comment on that or any other issues. (202) 748-8000 free democrats,

(202) 748-8001 for republicans, and independents (202) 748-8002. mitch mcconnell talking about voter turnout and accusing democrats of the big lie regarding that state. [video clip] since today has been a primary day, it is a good time to take a look back to where the senate was a few months ago when we were confronted with widespread democratic big lie that in georgia there was an effort by the republican legislature to engage in voter suppression bypassing a new voter law in the wake of the pandemic era that we all went through as a number of

states adjusted their manner of voting, picking up some of the things that were tried during the pandemic era and rejecting others. the democrats almost broke the senate over this issue, came within two votes of abandoning the filibuster. we have record turnouts in georgia. the indications are, the early voting of the new georgia law, more people are turning out then did in the presidential primary and dramatically more have turned out then in the 2018 primary. this conclusively proves that

there is no effort in georgia to suppress the vote. this is an effort to intimidate every body, to intimidate the senate and federal lysing the way we handle elections. it was a big lie and it is being in the process of being disproven in georgia today. host: those are the comments from senator mcconnell. we start off with mike in north carolina. caller: i switched over to be a republican. i was a democrat for several years. i just can't get used to their language.

i was proud of herschel walker last night. i just want to tell people out there, i have been walking around the world for 66 years. all of the things that we keep seeing, people dying in the streets, riots, pay attention to what your neighbor is doing. it doesn't make any sense. we have the strongest military, china wants to take guns away from people. our military is out there, we have ships and planes, they need help. host: micah mentioning herschel

walker. he won his bid for the senate race. he dominated this election like he used to dominate the football field. he will face stiffer competition and his next election. senator raphael warnock. marjorie taylor greene fended off a slew of challengers to become the 14th district nominee. green is likely to defeat her democratic challenger. from maria in brooklyn, new york. on the independent line. caller: thank you c-span. can you hear me?

i believe that people are frustrated and angry because our government does not resolve problems. the leaders don't need to solve problems because they receive large amounts of money, they gerrymander areas to ensure that they get back into office. there are no limits on their time to serve. we need to end citizens united and have six weeks of campaigning. we have to many bizarre candidates coming out right now and people don't know where to turn. nothing will be resolved until we get money out of politics. host: let's hear from richard in boston. caller: i agree with that woman.

i want to talk about climate change. we are trying to save the babies, but climate change affects children all over the world. i don't even know if mitch mcconnell has accepted the fact that we have climate change. i can feel the climate change effects already. i would like to see the government -- the islands are disappearing all over the world. i would like to see the government come together to do something together. host: that was richard in

massachusetts. arkansas reporting that sarah huckabee sanders won their respective parties nominee for government. sanders won the gubernatorial nomination. she is the daughter of mike huckabee. he is the former executive director of the innovation hub a physicist and a minister. let's hear from jane from olympia, washington on the republican line. caller: the price of gas and oil going up is bidens executive order shutting down gas and oil

manufacturing the day after he was inaugurated. it is that policy that has been carried out by the department of interior. host: from rick in tennessee. caller: bakken prohibition when all of the gangsters were running around with tommy guns and shot off shotguns and when the lack panthers showed up in sacramento, people got serious about gun control. if they can ban tommy guns they can ban these darn things. host: looking at the results from alabama, alabama's republican primary for senate is going to a june runoff between katie britt and mo brooks who lost president trump's endorsement. the candidates are seeking the

senate seat currently held by richard shelby. brooks is a six term congressman. they advanced to a june 21st runoff. this happens when no candidate captures more than 50%. this comes from the associated press. william in florida on the republican line. caller: good morning, thank you. democrats accusing the nra of something but they don't know that there has never been a case where an nra member, let alone the organization committed mass shootings. the nra had a program called

safe schools where they assess schools and told them what they needed to do to prevent mass shootings. the white house and elizabeth warren have no clue as to what the nra really does. they ought to learn first. host: we will hear from jason on our independent line. caller: the nra members do not kill people but they make sure the killers get the weapons to do so. it is hard to convince people that believe that schools are filled with people that want to make their children gay, want to destroy the fabric of society.

they have an innate fear of the great replacement theory, all of this foolishness that they created. i don't know how you have a reasonable conversation with them. all of that fear animates our desire to have weapons. they have fallen against the delusion that they are against the whole world and they need a whole arsenal in their basement. and they pander to it because it is easier to pander to the delusion than to call for real solutions. it is a sad scenario because it does not lead to solutions, it leads to us having these recurring conversations about gun violence. it's we will see this again in the next week, two weeks. another group of people killed.

it could be kids, old people, people in church. they will say thoughts and prayers and move onto the next one. host: we will go to susan on the democrats line. caller: there are so many things but obviously, my mind is on the small children. the teachers that were murdered yesterday. the constitution keeps coming up so much. when we have a supreme court and politicians that cannot be trusted. they will define the constitution in their own way. i don't know how we could do anything. i bought a gun a few years ago, a handgun. i bought this little handgun and i took it to arrange to learn how to handle it safely.

i realized as i was shooting that gun was that the purpose i bought it for, it is to harm. i will never be able to aim that it someone and shoot it. people really need to look that his grandmother was shot. was she the one that or did she know what was going on in her home? did she do anything to stop something like this? i have three daughters, they are all in their 30's. i knew all that was going on with them, good, bad, and ugly. it is up to us americans to point out people that are having issues in our families and friends. we know what is in their heads.

we have to act on that because our politicians don't have the backbone to do for us. host: that is susan. looking at texas and their primary, a congressman declared himself the winner for the 20th district after unofficial results had him needing. after midnight on wednesday in his campaign headquarters in the radio, he said "we won." he says the first time i won by 57 votes so this is a landslide r. referencing his first race in congress. cisneros reporting said he has not reached out to cuellar about the race and he is sure there will be a recount.

tim in wisconsin, independent line. caller: thank you for having me on. if you don't know history, you are doomed to repeat it. one of the first places is confiscating your weapons. that propaganda from two colors ago, he says people are delusional because they think they are teaching crt in schools and that is not happening. i guess he was proven wrong when he was proven that there was crt being taught in schools. he says they don't want to do anything about kids getting killed. my rule is do what works. i am retired military, retired police. put them in those schools, give them a tax break or pay them really small.

i'm not going to fall for the yoke propaganda. we want to confiscate weapons from law-abiding citizens, come out and say it. host: that is tim in wisconsin. something to watch out for an washington, d.c. is set president is expected to give an executive order on police reform today alongside family members of george floyd. it comes amid a surge in crime rates nationwide and protests over high-profile incidents involving police use of deadly force. it come several months after police reform stalled on senate because of disagreements between lawmakers. that is something to watch out for. stay close to c-span.org for all that. from eve in grand rapids,

michigan. democrats line. caller: i am heartbroken this morning because every time i look up there is a mass shooting somewhere. to those people who called before, you're not fooling anybody. you people who said you are the party of lincoln, you are not the party of lincoln. since 1964, you are the dixiecrat's and you always have been the dixiecrat spirit my thing with that is you have the guns you had then you were killing people with, in the civil war between this nation. it is still going on. it is time to put down the guns because you are killing our children. when i worked in his school, the school doors were locked. at the same time, why do we have to be under lock and key to have our kids safe going to school? host: that is evil in grand

rapids, michigan. that's your from james in akron, ohio. republican line. ? -- hello? one more time for james in ohio? we will hear from jerry in virginia, republican line. caller: good morning. these people talking about constitution and second amendment do not know what they are talking about. they need to read their history about the revolutionary war, what started it, and why it ended. the colonial army was losing badly. the weapons they had were not very accurate. they could not hit a barn at 30 paces. settlers in the lich mountains heard what was going on, they came out with their more

accurate hunting i they won the war for the colonial army. if it was not for that, we would still be under british control. the people don't know what they're talking about. host: that is jerry in broadway, virginia. many people mentioning that shooting from texas. president biden also talking about it from the white house. [video clip] pres. biden: we have to ask as a nation when in god's name all be going to stand up to the gun lobby? when in god's name will be do what we all know in our gut needs to be done? for thousand 448 -- 3448 days since i stood up at a great school in connecticut where another gunman massacred 26 people, including 20 first graders at sandy hook elementary

. since then, there have been over 900 incidents of gunfire as reported on school grounds. marjory stoneman douglas in parkland, florida, santa fe high school, oxford high school in michigan. the list goes on and on. mass shootings at movie theaters and houses of worship, just as we saw 10 days ago at a grocery store in buffalo, new york. i am sick and tired of it. we have to act. don't tell me you cannot have an impact on this carnage. i spent my career as a senator and vice president working to pass common sense gun laws. we can't and won't prevent every tragedy but we know they work and have a positive impact. we passed this all weapons

ban. the idea that an 18-year-old kid can walk into a gun store and buy two assault weapons is just long. host: the washington times reports of a plot to kill george w. bush. 's got to the texas neighborhood where mr. bush lived in look into buying firearms and border patrol uniforms. he was living in the u.s. through immigration fraud and came on a visitors visa he obtained from a "corrupt contractor." he then lost an asylum claim. in court filings, he told sources he was working with an

organization that include former loyalists of saddam hussein. in new york, democrats line, this is david. caller: how are you doing this morning? host: i am well, thanks. caller: i am calling about the gun problems we have. everyone seems to be hitting around the point here that in the constitution, the government can already regulate what we are allowed to carry and what we are allowed to own, whether or not we can put it in public. my personal opinion is no guns except law enforcement officers and military. it needs to be carried in public. you get caught with a gun in public, you go to jail, you pay a fine. your guns are taken away from you. this is ridiculous, there is no reason for it out in public. you say you need these big guns to go hunting, really? know you don't.

and you never did. and the bullets that explode inside the body cavity? i am sorry to keep rambling but there are so many things wrong with it. host: let's hear from diane in miami, florida. republican line. caller: hello. i have not gotten into the details of watching because it is upsetting that this is continuing with killing children in schools. but the gun free school zone act, was there anyone at the school that was authorized to have a position of a gun to protect the children? host: there has been reporting that there was some presence there.

i don't have it at my fingertips, you will have to look. caller: i question that because there were so many children killed. we just have to get stronger gun laws for the mentally ill and for those criminals that can't possess them any longer. it is all right to have a gun to protect ourselves, especially in the democrat states where they defunded the police. give it to the right people that can protect us in public. host: you made your point. there is a panel that released the recommendations for renaming military bases. it was established by congress

to identify new names for nine army installations honoring federal military officers. they were built during the first half of the 20 century and located in former confederate states and often named with and put from regional groups that some at last with the rebel cause. the former leaders recommend fort hood in texas honoring john bell hood be renamed fort cavazos, a texas native who later committed a core that was based there. fort lee would be renamed fort rick adams after two black officers that broke the racial barrier in the service. lee arthur greg became the highest-ranking black person in the military and was even allowed in the all white officers club.

terry adams was the first african-american woman to become a soldier in the battalion in world war ii. this is from ina in georgia, democrats line. caller: i am calling about the race in georgia yesterday. -- he don't have a clue as to what is going on. he only won because of donald trump. i want to say that i am so sorry about the shooting yesterday. host: in germantown, maryland, we will hear from sandy. democrats line. caller: i love this station -- i love your station and the screener i just talked to who was perfect -- just talked to was terrific. anyone who needs a gun -- texas,

you go into the rio grande. if i hear anything more about abortions or the second amendment -- the republican party died when john mccain died. the rest of them are trump trash that runs this country. if i hear -- i am a democrat, a liberal democrat. if i ever hear another democrat say they are good friends or their colleagues -- the trump trash once the democrats to rot in hell. host: the new york times reporting that jen psaki who rose to prominence as the current president's first white house secretary presiding over 200 exchanges and rising on

tiktok will work for msnbc later this year. she is also set to host a show starting next year on a streaming only channel on peacock. one more call we will hear from selma, republican line in indiana. hello. you are on, go ahead. caller: i cannot understand why they are asking to take the guns. i am sorry about the kids or anyone else who has been killed, but the guns don't get up off the floor and walk away and kill people. why should they take the guns and leave the helpless people in their homes when they can come in and use machetes. they can use knives on you, what are you going to do? defund the police is all you can hear. what are they going to do? they have their guard down that they don't stop them.

think about the people who don't have guns and guards. what kind of people are they? ms 13 and all of the people out here, the gangs or whoever. they don't have a gun. host: that is the republican line finishing off this set of open bones. our next segment will look at support for ukraine by the u.s., particularly a new source of funding for them and other issues related to ukraine. we will have elbridge colby of the marathon initiative and retired colonel mark cancian. that is coming up on "washington journal." ♪ >> american history tv, saturdays on c-span2, exploring

the people and events that tell the american story. at 2:00 in eastern, a conversation with president ulysses s grant along with retired u.s. army general david petraeus commemorating the 200th anniversary of the president's birth. university of alabama president -- professor on the preconstruction of the south, the causes for civil war and legacy of confederate statues. watch "american history tv" saturdays on c-span2 and find a full program -- a full schedule on your program guide or on c-span.org/history. >> at least six presidents recorded conversations while in office. hear many of those conversations on c-span's new podcast,

presidential recordings. >> season one focuses on the b johnson. you will hear about the presidential campaign, the gulf of tonkin incident, the march on selma, and the war in vietnam. not everyone knew they were being recorded. >> certainly johnson's secretaries new because they were tasked with transcribing many of those conversations. in fact, they were the ones who made sure the conversations were taped as johnson would signal to them through an open door between his office and there's. >> you will also hear some blunt talk. >> jim? >> yes sir. >> i want a report of the number of people assigned to kennedy on the day he died, the people assigned to me now, and if mine are less want more right quick. i want to go anywhere, i will stay right behind these black gates. >> president to recordings on

c-span now or wherever you get your recordings -- get your podcasts. host: elbridge colby and colonel mark cancian, with the csis. they key both for joining us. guest: great to be here. host: i will start with mr. colby. we have been at ukraine for 90 days as far as the u.s.'s support. what has been the result? guest: the result has been impressive because of ukrainian -- ukraine's own efforts. it has been the ukrainians' fighting prowess that has

exceeded my expectations. host: colonel mark cancian? guest: at the beginning, few thought the ukrainians would hold up. after 90 days, they seem to have the upper hand and the russians are struggling. their army has taken terrible casualties and we are -- we are at a better place than anyone would have assumed when this began. host: we see billions of dollars of aid given previously and another package given by the white house and authorized. as far as that aid is concerned and the amount -- and the amount therein, what you think about the amount and the sustainability of going into ukraine? guest: there is no doubt the aid is critical. armies in the field required a continuous flow of munitions and supplies and equipment to replace their losses.

the u.s. and others have enabled the forces in the field to continue operating effectively. it increases the level to $150 million a day. the package to several other things, about $15 billion is for humanitarian aid for ukraine and around the world. a big chunk with improved defenses of our eastern european allies by replacing their soviet era equipment with newer equipment. there's about $1 billion that helps the u.s. industrial base. there are a wide variety of things in here that will be helpful for national security and humanitarian aid. host: mr. colby? guest: i would agree with a lot of what mark has said. many of the specifics are positive. the issue is we are allocating 40 been dollars to the ukraine conflict, i believe that is larger than ukraine's own defense budget.

there is a fairness issue, but i don't think that would be compelling at the end of the day. we are channeling an a amount of money into a theater that i the administration's own statement is a secondary theater which is europe and russia. china is 10 times the size of the russian economy. the president went to asia over the last few days but there is little to show for it. as far as the security picture, all the administration has to show is an agreement initiated by the australians. just to get a comparison of the scale, the administration rolled out in the meeting with the aussie leaders, something around $150 million. there is nothing specifically --

on the whole i think supporting ukrainians is important but there has to be more done by the europeans. we need to focus on china and asia. the cia director and bill burns both said the threat to taiwan is acute. the russians have been showing much greater limits in their military efficacy than we thought. why are we doubling down or trickling down in europe where we are open to this enormous vulnerability. the president's comments about taiwan, while accurate, highlights the fact that we are speaking loudly and wearing -- and carrying a small stick. host: colonel mark cancian, how would you respond? guest: we are a global superpower with allies around the world. i think we need to stand by those allies and if we don't stand by our military allies, it

will send a message to china. this is a supplemental appropriation. it is above the usual appropriation so it does not take money from efforts in the pacific and as to efforts in europe. right now, that is the immediate threat. i think it is important our attention should be there as long as that is going on. guest: i disagree that we can handle these threats. we are not. the increasing assessment of military experts and analysts is we are on a trajectory to lose in the memory theater. the administration will say we can walk and chew gum at the same time dealing with china is neither walking or chewing gum, it is like running a marathon or wrestling a bear. what was coming out of the administration is all abuzz. they are talking about making investments that will materialize in the 20 30's.

administration's assessments are that partners and allies will materialize in the 20 20's. there is a huge question here. i don't think we can solve our problems by increasing defense spending, but the administration's budget proposal is below the rate of an nation. we are dealing with a superpower that has an economy roughly our own size and that is an immediate threat. we may be too late. guest: -- host: i want to invite viewers into the conversation. for democrats, 202-748-8000. 202-748-8001 for republicans. independent -- independents, 202-748-8002. you can text us at 202-748-8003. guest: i agree that the budget is inadequate for the strategy they laid out. we need more resources were china and around the world. my point is that what we're doing in europe does not take away from what we're doing in

the pacific. the pacific is inadequate, we need additional resources. we can do that without leaving our commitment to europe. host: a quick word about your individual institutions. 's center for strategic international studies, what is it? guest: it is a think tank in washington, d.c.. it is bipartisan and recover a wide variety of issues on national security. i write about military operations and forces. host: and the marathon initiative? guest: it is a small marathon -- a small think tank. our focus is on writing books. host: as far as the end game as you both see it when it comes to ukraine, henry kissinger was reported saying that ukraine could concede territory to russia to end this war, what do think about this? guest: i think there will have

to be a termination of, short of a full-scale defeat of russia. ukrainians have formed and honestly at a hope they can gain more territory, but the end of the day, there will be a negotiated settlement. if you look back when we had some of our situations and in korea when we let our hubris get your head and then we had the chinese intervention. or if you look at the iraq war in 2003, this is very dangerous. we really have no significant defenses instruction nuclear attacks. i'm not saying they will go there and i'm not saying we will be intimidated but we are supporting ukrainians in an effective way that is killing a lot of russian soldiers. if vladimir putin is such a loads of character, why do think he will not be willing to use chemical attacks or nuclear weapons?

how are we going to respond to that? we have to toe the line we have been telling. putin invested a lot of conventional forces into the field now but he invested more in new forces. -- in nuclear forces. we have to look for a negotiated settlement to this. guest: it is up to the ukrainians if they want to extend the war to the extent that they can push the russians out of the territory the russians have taken. we should support them in doing that. i think all of us should recognize just how long that might be, the destruction and sacrifice that might be required and to think about possible negotiations. there does not seem to be any common ground. ukrainians say they want the russians out of their territory. putin has given no indication that he wants to consider some

negotiations and compromise. i think this war will go on until both countries recognize negotiations are in their interests. guest: i respect his point about ukrainians and i have respect for their fighting ability. we are the ones supporting it and we are the ones who will be accountable if this expands in ways that are unfavorable to us. if the ukrainians want to keep fighting beyond where we are compared -- we are prepared to go, they can do that but we are not prepared for that. i'm not sure dr. kissinger is right in the specifics but from our point of view, we would not benefit from this war dramatically escalating or expanding. we would benefit from a significant ukrainian victory, but above the unlimited one. host: as far as settlement is concerned, what you think are

the key elements? guest: the eastern areas of donbas, crimea, hopefully an armed neutrality would be something probably like where things will likely end up. host: same question to you, mark cancian. guest: that deal was on the table early along i am not sure that is still viable. i think we should support them if they want to -- recognizing the sacrifices that will be involved. i don't see russians escalating the conflict over territories they conquered. the separatist turquoise, that is a different question. there had been negotiations over that. the agreements have signaled they might be willing to give up on crimea. people would want to be part of

russia. i think where we are right now is not so bad. russia is bleeding and getting weaker by the day. in the long term that is good for us and good for europe. guest: i'm not sure that colonel mark cancian and i disagree. if you can eject russians for the donbas area and get them to accept it -- i'm not as confident as he is that russians will escalate -- won't ask -- the russians won't escalate. they are being shown to be less effect in the conventional military demand so why are we doubling down in europe? host: again, our conversation, you can be part of it. 202-748-8000 for democrats. 1 for --202-748-8001 for republicans. 202-748-8002 for independents. bill is up first.

guest: -- caller: at two questions on asia. if we beef up our defense posture in east asia along the lines that elbridge colby is talking about, that would intensify the free rider incentives around defense spending that president trump emphatically was talking about. i wonder how you could manage? the other question is china has not fought a war since 1979 and that did not go particularly well. i noted concerns around u.s.

these war games against china. taiwan scenarios are often brought up. i wonder how that lack of experience in actual war fighting is factored into those wargames in areas or if it is not? host: thanks, caller. caller: excellent questions -- guest: excellent questions. on the free rider problem, you are right. the basic answer is there will be so much additional effort needed that everyone will have to get involved. just looking at the numbers, china is an equivalent economy in size to the u.s. itself. it is continuing to grow its military by 7% every year. even if we focus, that will not be enough. the message i would give to the

japanese and taiwanese is you need to get in the game or else we are not going to be able to defend you very well. it is going to look more like west germany during the cold war, i think, which is we cannot do this alone, it is not feasible. it is also not sustainable politically because americans at home jose why are we taking all this risk and the japanese and taiwanese are free riding? i am confident we are moving in the right direction, the question is if we are doing it fast enough. the japanese have started to talk about moving towards 2% of gdp spending on defense. over the years, that is not enough and not fast enough. it is important we press on the burdens here. it differentiates from the trump administration because president obama was concerned about this issue and we can no longer afford to be lax on the problem.

we need to get comfortable with our allies. on your point about their degree of experience, colonel mark cancian would know more. we should apply somewhat of a discount, but not too much. -- has a quality on its own. if we apply a 10% to 50% discount on china, if they -- the targets, that will be enough. you can overcome a lack of skill with mass. that is what happened in world war ii. the germans were considered to be better man for man but we just saturated them. our allies are not that experienced. the taiwanese have not fought a war since 1949, 1 they decisively lost. the chinese are conducting more joint exercises. chairman xi jinping has called

to be ready for war like this. i think that is factored in to wargames, but i don't think it is one we should take for a reason for lassitude. guest: there is a tremendous uncertainty about the effect of this about the chinese military. we can see what their agreement looks like and the size of their facilities. the size of their forces is large. all of that could have been said about the russians when this war kicked off. the expectations were that the russians would do very well. they had gone through reforms, performed well in crimea and syria. their performance in ukraine has been abysmal at all levels. there is two minutes uncertainty about the chinese -- there is tremendous uncertainty about the chinese. have not conducted a war since that in 79 have not conducted

large-scale operations since the korean war in the 1950's. when we think about the chinese, we need to consider a broad spectrum of quality in their forces. their forces might be pretty good, they might be pretty bad. there is a large range there. in terms of what our allies should do, we have a problem in that we don't have any to equivalent in asia so it is difficult to get allies working together and get common agreements. we need to press our allies in the pacific and in the atlantic to do more -- i would not call it free riding because they are making significant efforts, but do their share. the japanese have been at 1% and are talking about increasing it. that was a pretty large military and there is a lot of history about why other countries have been comfortable with 1%.

the taiwanese, i think it is reasonable to press them pretty hard about their defense efforts . it is their country, they need to do more. they are stepping up what we need to keep those pressures on. at the end of the day, they cannot do themselves. we need to increase our efforts. the defense budget is an addict for the strategy the biden administration has laid out and they need to step up and find a budget that would support the strategy posed in these -- in the pacific and atlantic. host: here is anthony in virginia, republican line. caller: on the situation in ukraine and how it relates to the recent shooting, bear with

me for a second. the democrats are all giving weapons to ukraine and doing photo ops. it is on both sides. the thing is [indiscernible] at this end time, you are denying u.s. citizenship. host: i think we have got your point. colonel mark cancian, how much more can make a then we have already done? guest: i think there is no limit to what we could give ukraine. there are some elements where we are running short, javelins, i think we have given as much as we can without damaging our own stock.

but there are substitutes for different antitank weapons. we are providing a continuous flow of munitions and other supplies. we have sent howitzers. if you can into two years, we could send them equipment and they would have time to be trained on the maintenance and the supply chains. during that on the run is very difficult. i would also note i don't think there is any connection between providing weapons to the ukrainians and gun rights back in the u.s., two separate issues. host: one of the conversations was this aspect of a no-fly zone, putting that into place. where are you on that? host: i would say absent -- guest: i would say absolutely

not. where we are is a comfortable place. we are sending supplies and munitions and intelligence to the ukrainians. we are not sending any troops into ukraine. that is clearly a redline for putin. if we cross that line, we might get into an escalatory situation. and no-fly zone is an act of war. if you tell them to stop flying, you have to send your aircraft over there and send out russian aircraft that flies. you also have to attack ground-based air defenses because they will be shooting at you. extremity dangerous and really unnecessary. a lot of people see all of these explosions in social media and on tv. most of those explosions are missiles and artillery which would not be affected by a no-fly zone. the russian air force is not conducting a lot of missions. extremity dangerous, probably

would not help very much. guest: fully agree, nothing to at. host: this is pat in pennsylvania. democrats line. caller: i would like to remind guest that we are talking about ukraine, not china. quit trying to sell your china book while we are talking about ukraine. ukraine is what we are talking about today. host: thank you. guest: whether you like it or not, china is the priority. don't take it from me, take it from the biden administration. china has to be the priority. president trump was the first try but we have felt to make it a reality. where to get uncomfortable and injected in every conversation, really in conversations like domestic issues like trade and tariffs and other policies.

there is scarcity, we don't have a military that is large or equipped enough to fight two large wars against russia and china on concurrent timelines. not because we like troops but because of the things that matter in a modern war, we don't have those things. we need to deal with the reality of power scarcity and walk the walk we have been talking about. when the administration is talking about walking and chewing gum at the same time, that is telegraphing they are not taking the problem seriously. we are basically at the point where i the coming years we are hearing from the administration's own officials. originally it was from davidson, an officer responsible for the pacific. people downplayed his warnings, but we are now getting predictions and assessments from

politically appointed in aquatic aligned officials like haynes and burns saying there is an acute threat from china to taiwan. the president himself said we are going to defendant0 we basically -- we are going to defend it. we know we are not ready. i don't understand why we cannot bring the urgency of the ukraine situation to a situation which is far more consequential in which americans would die. host: you spoke about the nuclear capability of russia, there is a scenario by a twitter user saying if russia did use a tactical new on the what would be the response? guest: we did not make a security agreement with ukraine for a good reason so we should not get militarily involved. it is all the more reason if we respond militarily they would be willing to use it again. if they do use a nuclear weapon, that would be an act of the

utmost program so we should increase the difficulty and pressure. the indirect sanctions, gloves are off. but i don't think we want to get militarily involved. i don't think we want to bring ukraine into nato. that was a mistake to suggest it. we have our defense perimeter in europe. if russia tax nato countries with weapons, we should respond with nuclear weapons. but there is a reason we've drew the nuclear perimeter. how we have gotten into some of the worst conflicts via an in is this mission creep. in korea and vietnam and with the 2003 war and we should not make that mistake again. things from our point of view are going well. i don't want to say that and a heartless way, but from a strategic perspective, we are doing pretty well. let's not lean forward and fall

over into an abyss. host: mark cancian? guest: to finish up on the nuclear -- the administration has been vague on what they would do and i think that is the right approach because it is unlikely we would use nuclear weapons to respond if the russians use a nuclear weapon in ukraine. if you want to have a battlefield advantage, you have to use a lot of them because troops are so spread out. a single year -- a sinker -- a single nuclear weapon would be used for intimidation. this would engender a global response far beyond even what we have seen which has been quite substantial. i want to leverage this question about commitment and make the argument that if you are concerned about overcommitment in europe and our ability to ship resources to the pacific, you need to raise questions

about bringing sweden and finland into nato. finland has an 800 mile border with russia. both of them are expanding nato's borders towards russia. russia will react strongly. it creates any additional security commitment. you can argue that both ways. if you let them in, you have to put more focus on europe to ensure those article five commitments are real. that is going to take more u.s. forces, more u.s. attention. host: would you support letting them in? guest: i would have a series of hearings to clarify what the security hearings are -- security commitments are. these are liberal democracies, which they are, they have excellent militaries, which they do, and then just leave it there. don't say to make the article

five commitments real, we have to do a bnc. we have to open up facilities in both countries. the idea that we are going to let finland into nato and not do anything to defendant -- to defendant -- to defend it sounds responsible. i would have a series of discussions about this issue. we have not had of those with nato expansion since the 1990's. the first tranche of expansion, there were hearings about what would be entailed to defend these new countries. after that, there was literally nothing. were brought in the baltic states come a wonderful countries, democratic. but they have required significant military commitments. we need to have that discussion

before we move forward. host: same question. guest: i 100% agree with mark and i believe the spirit is right. look, i believe this is a grave military commitment, especially bringing finland in. finland has been able to breathe -- able to be secured outside of nato. if you become more attracted to the russians because if you wreck apart nato, the russians can do it by land grabs. this could increase the vulnerability to finland. there would be military commitments and obligations as part of nato that i think would need to be met. those commitments commitment. -- those commitments need to be met. by thinking about this from america's national interests in light of the difficult requirements we have, particularly in the

asia-pacific. in that context, not only hearings but studies. this is where the senate can live up to its historical responsibilities going back to fulbright of really being deliberate and careful and strategic. what i could see as a way of bringing sweden in is a firm commitment from them both to increase defense spending. more importantly, by other europeans, especially germany as part of the madrid commitments to assume more responsibility and spend more as part of that. it would be good if finland and sweden could be in but only would make sense if a lot of that increased even the current level of amendments assumed by the europeans and enabled us to focus on the end of pacific -- in the indo pacific. this rush to bring finland and sweden in is ill-advised. it could look ill-advised in

retrospect. it is better to look at it in a rational, cost-benefit way as mark is suggesting. host: go ahead. caller: why are we defending ukraine when we are not defending our southern border? shouldn't we bring our army to the southern border to stop the invasion. host: okay. guest: i believe in securing the southern border, building facilities or walls to make that secure makes sense. using the military makes sense to me. as mark pointed out, these don't always tread against each other. i don't see why that would need to come out of the defense budget. we should control the southern border, control over the immigration process. at the same time, we need to look at our interests in the international system because those are not zero to 100 at the biggest threat is china. if we allow china to dominant,

they will control our economy. we should ensure that does not happen, make sure europe does not go into complete chaos and secure our southern border. host: mr. mark cancian? guest: there is no reason we should not do both, that is to defend our interest in europe and secure our southern border. the military is not the tool to secure the southern border. we have sent troops there periodically, there is still some national guard down there. border patrol should be there, enforcement. using military for law enforcement is generally a bad idea. the national guard does have those powers and we can do that, but they are not trained in all of the use of force law enforcement are trained in. on the border, typically they are not allowed to deal with any illegal immigrants. that provide some support.

we need to secure that in a long-term permanent way with institutions and tools designed for that and not military assets to a job they are not designed for. host:. . rachel in texas, independent line. caller: everyone is claiming if trump was in office this would not happen in ukraine. i watched when a truck asked the president of ukraine to get dirt on hunter biden and i will give you weapons. i watched the whole hearing. susan collins comes out and says he might have committed bribery but that is not what they are charging for. then we have trump coming out and saying that putin was savvy and he was a genius for what he was doing because he was upset

about the fraud election. host: what would you like our guests to address? caller: i want to understand why there is so much negative stuff about biden when trump would not have done a damn thing. host: there were setbacks on that putin visit only because of perceived weakness from the u.s.. do you buy that argument? guest: i do not. it is certainly possible and i think when the war is over there might be some insights there. what happened in afghanistan may have influenced putin and his thinking, but you don't have to point to this particular administration. putin has been clear since he came into power he wants to rebuild the soviet empire, the russian empire. this is consistent with what he has been talking about for 20 years.

trump does deserve some credit for providing lethal weapons, including javelins, to the ukrainians where previous administrations had not. on the other hand, i don't see any evidence that trump would have handled it any differently and what he would have done would have dissuaded putin. guest: the basic thing is the fact as they are is putin did not move under the trump administration and did this roughly a euro more into the biden administration. we don't know what is going through put in's -- throughput and -- through putin's head but that is a reality that needs to be reckoned with. host: let's hear from ray in taylor, michigan. go ahead. caller: ukraine, they are not part of nato.

neither is taiwan. so why should we help either one of them? i want to give you a scenario. now we have 12 countries part of nato. what if we only had three and those were u.s., russia, and china. would we need anymore? absolutely not. if you don't belong to nato, we should not spend our money. they are too cheap to pay their part to belong to nato. host: we will leave it there. the caller's point as far as why. guest: taiwan is not a formal treaty ally of the u.s. anymore, it was for a number of decades. i don't look at this from a legalistic piece of paper perspective. treaties matter a lot but they are not ultimately

determinative. what is determinative is what is in the u.s.'s interests. the philippines are about 200 miles from taiwan, japan, etc. that is the world's biggest reason -- fixed region. michigan has felt the pain of industrialization and that is the world that will come about if china dominates asia. taiwan is a critical part of that. if they take over taiwan, they will point at -- point a gun at everyone else's head and say we will be the gatekeepers of the world. everyone in america will not be living on our own. we will be working for the asian economy directly or indirectly. we cannot let this huge power that is assertive and aggressive and domineering take it over. it is 10 times the size of the russian economy.

it is the first time in our history as an international power we are dealing with a country the same size. this soviet union was not even half the size of our economy. they were never even close. this is real and different. there is a big military piece. let's hold the line and we would be able to have a balance of power that would preserve our balance of power. guest: let me talk to ukraine because ukraine is not part of nato but it is an independent country, a democracy. you had one country invading another, the potential for destabilizing europe and having more such invasions which would increase if we did not help the ukrainians defend themselves. russia would have been on the border of poland which is a nato country. there are many reasons for our

own broad security and to maintain international order that has been kind to the u.s. that we should defend ukraine. host: colonel mark cancian is with center for strategic and international studies, a senior advisor. elbridge colby served in the trump administration. he is the cofounder and principal of the marathon initiative. thank you for giving us your time today. guest: thanks, pedro. guest: thanks for having us on the show. host: another addition of "washington journal" comes your way tomorrow morning. we will see you then. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2022] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

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