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operation. shop now or at any time at c-span shop.org. continues. host: reuters reporter and correspondent david shepardson joins us. he covers the airline industry and the state of the industry. flight cancellations is our topic. good morning. statistics tell us that on the 26 of the -- of this month, airlines delayed or canceled tens of thousands of flights, and so far, there's the highest percentage of delayed flights this year. let's start with why this is happening. guest: there are a number of factors that account for that and there's been some finger-pointing between the faa, which oversees air traffic control, and the airlines themselves. this really began during the covid pandemic, and, you know,

airline traffic felt almost zero overnight and the u.s. government provided with three rounds of government assistance to pay the bulk of their payroll costs that ended up lasting about 18 months. however, it did not prohibit the airlines from offering incentives for early retirements or people to leave the airline and find a new job, so as a result, when the travel demand started to return faster than the airlines had anticipated, the airlines have been struggling to hire enough people to staff all these flights. from the other side, the airlines' point of view, you have problems with air traffic control. you have certain centers, like jacksonville, that the airlines say, in the last 27 or 30 days, they did not have enough staffing. as a result, even on blue-sky days, you saw delays.

there are other issues, like space launches, which require the faa to block off a significant part of airspace to travel. so you've got a number of different factors here in a system that has very little slack when a disruption happens, you know, thunderstorms, which are not uncommon of course during the summer. there are always delays and cancellations. what is different this year is, because the airlines don't have as many staff and pilots as they would like and, you know, the faa has places where they need to increase staffing, we are seeing these normal delays be exacerbated. you know, even yesterday, you know, three of the largest airlines had about 20% of their flights delayed, so it is a rough summer and there's a number of different causes and i do think you are going to see a lot more pressure for the industry and regulators to really tackle this.

host: so they tell us that on the 24th, the tsa screen to close to 3 million passengers, 2.4 5 million. you are seeing a resurgence in travel. there's a tweet from leslie jones, who looks at these things, saying even miami and international is averaging 150,000 passengers per day compared to 126,000 per day, the previous record in 2019. if these volumes continue, what is the potential regarding further delays in the future? guest: leslie has a good tweet and she does raise a couple good points. one is that florida has become so important for the u.s. aviation system, i think both southwest and jetblue estimate that anywhere from 40% to 50% of their daily flights touch florida, so hugely important. and remember, it was only recently that the u.s. government finally got rid of the requirements for international testing, that

people test negative for international flights. so because of those requirements, we saw a lot of travelers who were reluctant to travel abroad. what we have seen is the domestic flights -- it has almost completely returned to pre-pandemic levels, and, in some places like florida, at certain airports, you have seen demand for domestic flights increase or go beyond previous levels, and international demand has remained below what it was before the pandemic. but, you know, this is not -- this problem has been going on all year. the dot put out a report last week saying that, in april, only about 76% of flights were on time. that was less than the previous month and less than april of 2019, so it is a problem, and airlines have taken some significant steps, one of them being canceling a lot of flights they wanted to fly in the

summer. the airline trade group, airlines for america, estimated in a letter around 15% of flights have been taken down voluntarily by the airlines. united took some flights out of its newark hub, the most congested airspace in the united states and it has its own problems given the airport construction there. there are issues. so there's a lot of different factors surrounding this. and one thing to remember, the flight attendants, the pilots, they just spent two years dealing with covid, having to enforce mask mandates, a record number of disruptive passengers. so no matter how long your flight is delayed, it is not a good idea to take it out on the people working on your planes or flying your planes or servicing the planes, because they are working hard and a lot of them are being asked to work more,

which is why you see picketing in a lot of places. host: david shepardson joining us in conversation. if you have questions, you can give us a call at (202) 748-8000 for the eastern and central time zones, (202) 748-8001 for the mountain and pacific time zones. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. david shepardson, the transportation secretary, pete buttigieg, talking with the head of airlines, saying basically how will you resolve this? how much power does the federal government have over this? guest: not a lot. the government does have the power to take enforcement actions if they believe the airlines are not abiding by consumer protection laws. there are certain lawmakers -- the pennsylvania democratic candidate john fetterman has called for new fines

significant fine,s, if airlines cancel a flight they know they didn't have the staffing for, but it will be somewhat challenging to determine how -- determine ahead of time how they could no. nonetheless, it does raise a lot of anger toward the airlines for the number of cancellations and delays. so it is worth remembering that, after the pandemic, the department of transportation opened a number of investigations into airlines that failed to refund tickets in a timely fashion. there are still a number of those going on. there was a significant settlement with air canada that was announced a while ago. but the department of transportation has a number of new rules on the books or proposals it would like to get down this year or next year. those will take some time, but

they include one that would refund passengers for their wi-fi if it didn't work, if they had delayed bags, but generally speaking, that 54 billion dollars government bailout did not come with a lot of strings. it did require the airlines not to cancel service between two cities during the period they got the funding without the approval of the transportation department and you could not, you know, fire, reduce the pay of a worker without, you know -- on the airline's own. however, did not require -- it did not bar them from early retirements or voluntary buyouts, which is why some airlines saw their staff retract quite a bit. there was one estimate that, during the pandemic, about 50,000 airline workers took voluntary buyouts or early retirement. that's still a number the

airlines are trying to work through, especially for pilots, given there's a significant number of hours required to train pilots and significant pressure on them. united announced a 14.5% raise for pilots that will take effect over the next 18 months. there will be eight weeks of maternity leave for new pilots. and the regional, smaller carriers are struggling to keep their pilots because the mainline carriers are offering more money. some of them have also announced big contract increases, so there's a lot of pressure on airlines to try to attract new talent and at the same time airfares are also going up. host: david shepardson, we cannot show you the tweets, but a couple viewers have highlighted the fact of pilot shortages. how much was caused by pressure put on them by the airlines to take vaccines?

guest: some airlines have reported there are a small number of pilots that did leave during covid. united has announced a small number of pilots. i don't recall the specific number offhand, but i don't think that's a very large number. and it is worth noting that most of the carriers did not -- forced pilots to leave who didn't get vaccinated. you had things like delta, which initially offered these additional insurance payments for people who did not get vaccinated, an extra charge rather than forcing you to leave or putting you on paid or unpaid leave for not getting vaccinated. so i don't think that number is really significant relative to the tens of thousands of employees who opted to take those early retirements, those incentives. at a time when airlines really

didn't know when demand would go back, right? i mean, there was some thought that the zoom culture of people, you know, avoiding travel, would continue much longer. really, the airlines were really guessing in the dark about how long. would we see this depressed travel demand? and now, all the airlines -- i believe even united has offered people -- they have withdrawn those requirements, you know, once the once the mandates went away and the government was not able to enforce its mandates given a series of court decisions. host: david shepardson joining us in this conversation. our first call is from ann in maryland. caller: this isn't like i intended to call, but i think the comment that your guests doesn't have any real numbers on the number of pilot impact by the vaccine mandate is kind of

sorry because that seems like a pretty basic piece of information that he should be aware of. the reason i really called is first of all, thunderstorms have been around forever so that shouldn't be an excuse for what's happening today. and i can understand if there have been declines in the number of employees that these airlines are able to retain. but you don't schedule a flight and wait until an hour before to schedule your flight because you are understaffed at large. there is something else that needs to be able to explain these last-minute cancellations besides we just don't have enough employees. host: that's ann in maryland. guest: i pulled the number and the united ceo scott kirby said that out of their 67,000 40 they had filed about 200. six pilots were fired.

about 80 were put on unpaid leave out of 13,000 pilots. to your other question about thunderstorms, you are absolutely right. there are thunderstorms. this system is supposed to be performing better than it is. i think the airlines, the faa and the secretary of transportation would all agree that the number of transportations and delays are really untenable. because there is so little slack in the system, it's not just that your flight gets canceled. the airline might not get you on a flight for another day to days and people with work schedules and kids, that is not a system that anybody wants. the airlines did take 15%. they have proactively canceled a lot of flights.

the faa says they are hiring more people and focused on getting staffing. i think long-term, everybody's got to talk about are there ways to improve air traffic control management through more advanced technologies, get more airplanes in the sky closer together safely. travel demand is going to continue to increase. even as the airlines stuff back up and get to where they want to be and should be in terms of staffing, that's not going to address the whole problem. when the faa gets the number of controllers that it needs to ensure they are fully staffed. both airlines have been impacted

by covid. controllers go out. five days they can't go back to work. there are still lingering issues as well. host: how is fuel prices impacting things? guest: there's no question that airfares are going up quite a bit. they are different estimates. anybody who's going to try and buy a ticket recently has faced the same sticker shock. the issue that the airlines will tell you, they really have had no difficulty passing those higher fuel costs on to consumers because of the pandemic demand. people were stuck at home, stuck in their attics for two years. they didn't take those trips and they go to buy the airline ticket and say the traditional

economic decision isn't worth it at this point. i saved money. i didn't go places for a year or two. i think people are willing to spend a little bit more on those tickets and as a result, the price curve goes up quite a bit. the question is when will those things normalize, when we return to a demand and pricing structure that's more normalized. this fall will see some return. oil prices are high. oil and labor are the big drivers of airline costs. i think these higher prices that people are used to, we are just going to have to assume we will

be in the place for quite a while. host: looks here from wisconsin. good morning. marty in richfield, wisconsin. caller: yes, good morning. two points. my first question is with smaller or midsize markets, how do you expect those to be affected as the airline industry is continuing to change. i know in milwaukee and madison, the amount of flights we have had has been shown. when do we expect as far as fossil fuels to have solar powered passenger jets? guest: those are great questions. it is a big struggle and airlines have said they are not flying his many regional flights as they like because of the shortage of pilots.

you have airlines like skywest asked approval to stop service to over two dozen airports. the government provides subsidies to maintain air service to smaller airports across the country. in this case the airline petitioned to get out of those contracts early because of the lack of pilots. some start up airlines between smaller airports, smaller flights would be the argument that with the pandemic more people are working from places they might not have in the past and some of these smaller airports might see more demand because people who may have moved want to be able to still travel.

cheaply to the smaller airports. at least in the short term there is more pressure on the smaller airports because the airlines are making decisions about where to deploy pilots and flight and are focused on larger routes. they are not going to go away. in the short term there's going to be some pressure on some regional flights especially the very smallest airports that have service by a mainline carrier. in terms of solar powered planes and electric planes, it's a big challenge because it's not like a car where you can just strap a battery pack the size of an airplane and fly it 3000 miles and be confident that it's safe and has the extra capacity in

case of emergency. long-term the electric airplane is seen as the way to decarbonizing sector but that's still a long way away. there are still technical challenges that have to be addressed. in the short term airlines and the biden administration think that the way is through sustainable aviation fuel which comes from nonfossil fuel sources. other sustainable fuels currently up to 50% of what the plane would use. the problem is it's expensive. the airlines have been pressing for a tax break to make it more cost competitive and there's not enough of it. so there's a lot of demand and

very little fuel being produced. the biden administration set pretty aggressive targets through 2030 to lower carbon from aviation. there is still a lot of issues between production and the cost. host: for david shepardson of reuters, our next call is david in virginia. caller: thanks for taking my call. i heard you specify jacksonville twice now. i think i missed the point there. would you mind reiterating what the issue is with jacksonville and will my family and i have any issues flying out? guest: it's a little too early to say. the air traffic control center has had some staffing issues and the faa has acknowledged that

and in may they said they want to ramp up staffing. it's less about the impact of jacksonville airport and more about the fact that if there are staffing issues, if the flow of air traffic has to be lowered in that area it can impact much of florida and because florida has become so crucial to u.s. aviation and accounts for such a large number of flights. if you have problems in florida they can impact flights all across the system. that center specifically has been one that the airlines have identified as having staffing issues. we still don't have good data from either the faa or the airlines to really pin down

exactly how much of a problem is staffing and how much that the airlines don't have enough staff to handle the existing demand. it's hard to know. i personally watch flightaware. it's a good website that will give you industry numbers. the faa has a good daily site that you can look at. they put out forecasts to what might be travel issues. host: pete is in new hampshire. go ahead. caller: good morning. host: you are on. go ahead.

caller: this whole thing is an endless revolving door. the government, the covid mandates by our government basically has crippled the airline just like a lot of industries. what we are going to see next is a big bailout by our own government from the government they partially created. go back to when ronald reagan was president. he told them you either return to work by a certain date or you are done. every time the government gets involved with anything no matter what the industry or situation is, it ends up turning out poorly for the american public.

host: that's pete in new hampshire. guest: if you go back to last fall when the airlines because they were government contractors were compelled to begin the process of requiring their employees to be vaccinated. there was a lot of concern that pilots would opt to leave or be fired. it was a very small number of pilots that have been fired. most of the airlines opted not to fire people. that mandate was blocked by the courts. so i do recognize and think it's certainly possible that some pilots opted to retire early because they saw the mandate and didn't want to comply. but i don't think at this point a significant portion of the problem is tied to that because it doesn't exist.

number two, there are so many pilot opportunities of anybody who did leave an airline wants to go and have a job, certainly those are available today. quite a large number. you are certainly right that if you go back to last fall, there was a lot of concern that those mandates would lead to people leaving. on the other hand the government argued that it would be safer for the other employees if everybody in a confined space like an airplane had been vaccinated. host: (202) 748-8000 eastern and central time zones. (202) 748-8001 mountain and pacific time zones. delta plans to issue a travel waiver for this weekend. what does this mean as far as the preparation and do you see

other airlines taking this kind of strategy? guest: this is a pretty routine thing that you see bad weather coming or you are concerned about delays. airlines will issue these waivers. in the case of delta it's a relatively small window. i do think there's a lot of attention around this july 4 weekend. it's obviously a very busy weekend historically. the ceos expressly raised the ideas of how it would perform over that weekend. it's clear the airlines did not perform the way they wanted to or should have in an ideal world and so they got letters from lawmakers and this meeting for

the secretary. there's going to be a lot of scrutiny or -- over how the airlines handle their travel. they don't want to transfer flights. i spoke to jeff lu a couple months ago about this issue. because the demand is so strong and the prices are up, they can keep selling a lot of flights and hoping things go for the best. i do think they are trying to take more flights down, trying to run the system with a little more slack. the question is is it going to perform well enough. will congress take action to make it more economically painful for airlines to cancel flights. if that ever happened, you would think the airlines would operate

a lot fewer flights. or cancel fewer flights. host: jay is in bethlehem, new hampshire. caller: i'm very concerned about the compromise of aviation safety pushing these experimental shots. i'm sorry but i'm also concerned , i think the ceo of reuters serves on the board of pfizer. so that makes it kind of hard to get information. but thank you very much for coming on. i appreciate it. guest: the faa did closely review the shots expressly for pilots but after you got your site or your booster that you couldn't fly for a brief period

of time. as far as i know some of the airlines have talked about after their employees got vaccinated they saw far fewer employees get sick or die or be hospitalized as a result of covid. we certainly know that early on before the vaccines, airline employees were among the essential workers who had to keep flying. some died as a result of covid. there are certainly people who do not want to get vaccinated and work for the airlines but the vast majority of airline employees have been vaccinated at this point. host: senator bernie sanders of vermont sent out a letter to ceos laying out what he would like to see. some of the recommendations he makes is that we require

airlines to promptly refund passengers that have been delayed over an hour, impose fines for flights delayed more than two hours and impose fines for scheduling flights that are unable to properly staff. as far as regulators and legislators are concerned, if this cancellation happens, do we see more oversight by congress on capitol hill or at least more hearings on this topic? guest: i think for certain you will see more hearings. it sounds like a long way away, but the next faa reauthorization bill is set to expire september of 2023. congress traditionally uses that faa authorization as a way to take a really hard look at airline policy and see how the system is working. i think there is no question you're going to see a push by consumer advocates by some

lawmakers to give the government more tools to crack down on delays and cancellations if they continue. if we look more closely at the numbers, how much of those can be attributed to airlines failing to have enough staff. i think what senator sanders is talking about would be an uphill battle to get that approved. it's very frustrating. it's one thing to be delayed in a traffic jam, but you are driving. it's the perception that you are in control versus being stuck in the airplane you can't get off of. my in-laws just on a plane from

boston to d.c. and they were delayed by eight hours and then they sat on the tarmac for over an hour in washington. it is one of the most frustrating things. the irony was the crew that worked their flight had the day off and they volunteered to come in because that flight wouldn't have operated at all. the airlines are working incredibly hard especially these front-line workers to try to keep the system going. try not to take it out on them. it's not their fault. if your flight gets canceled or delayed. they are responding to air traffic control or whoever is telling them which flight gets to go or not go. there are very hefty fines the faa has been very willing to use during covid for people who assault or otherwise grossly misbehave on flights.

everything will get there at the same time eventually. let's be nice to everybody on the airplanes. host: let's hear from stephen in massachusetts. caller: cancellations are the most horrible thing in the world. host: you are going to have to repeat that. caller: horrible. [indiscernible] host: let's go to gary in kentucky. caller: hello. i had a cancellation on a flight from cincinnati to laguardia and it got canceled and so delta moved us over to american airlines, paid the difference, upgraded us. it was done the day before so it wasn't too inconvenient.

we had an hour delay because of the weather sitting on the tarmac. i was sitting there about two hours on the tarmac at laguardia. but overall the airlines handled it very well and i was kind of pleased considering the situation that i'm hearing on the program today. guest: i think that's a great point. all the planes that landed safely and everybody that didn't have a problem with their trip is not what we focus on. by and large even with numbers down, the planes that landed on time 76%. obviously it's not pleasant if you are on one of the flights that was delayed and clearly the system should be performing better than it is. and the airlines need more employees or more pilots.

i do think one of the problems is the system because it is so overtaxed, it can be hours on the phone to get a call back from airline customer service if your flight gets can. it's a very stressful process. flying itself can be stressful for some people. i do think it's worth pointing out that most flights even in bad weather or even when we have seen these issues do get to their destination relatively close to what they are supposed to be there. but we take it for granted. that it will leave exactly when we want it to and it's going to land. this is the time where the system is still rebuilding and it's not where people want it to be.

roll the dice, know which one of the flights you are going to be on. it's very challenging. host: one more call. brian in tampa florida. caller: just quickly. i don't know if i had my information correct. didn't airlines get a bunch of money from the government from covid? that really should have given them enough money to run with hiring enough pilots so on and so forth. [indiscernible]

-- admonished about things. i guess that's just my comment. host: that's brian in tampa florida. we addressed that. chart out where we are going from here as far as cancellations. what should consumers be watching out for? guest: make sure you check your flights before you leave for the airport. check the next day for text alerts or emails from your airline to give you up-to-date information about your flight if you can't get through on the phone, sometimes a direct message on social media might help. the airlines employ a lot of people whose job is to monitor social media.

definitely pay attention. look at how the airport is doing. massive traffic jams, the strikes, temporarily closed or had other significant disruptions. make sure you check how the airports are doing and then be prepared for very long waits. customs coming into the united states and leaving when you arrived to the airport. it's going to be a very challenging summer. it already is. it will just be the normal

summer weathers -- summer weather that we are going to have part of the issue is the airlines were not required to keep those -- they are not barred from offering those early retirements or voluntary incentives to leave. the government lifeline was approved in a very short period of time. the government was trying to ensure that the system survived. you could argue that the government have attached a few more strings on the money. could that have worked potentially. i think now the question is what regulatory structure, what rules are going to be put in place to try to reduce delays and cancellations and are there anyone that can do it

effectively without substantially raising costs. host: you can find his work