demand at c-span.org. >> a look now at the live coverage on c-span now. on easter, the atlantic council arrived initiative host a discussion on arrest influence on the middle east. former congresswoman robert comstock and bill christer -- crystal look at the midterm elections. there is a briefing streaming about monkeypox. you can download c-span now for free on google play and the apple app store. >> davey pepper -- david pepper is with us. he authored -- he is former ohio democratic party chair and has authored several books including laboratories of autocracy of wakeup call from behind the lines.

good to have you back on "washington journal" this morning. guest: thank you, great to be with you again. host: in that book you talk about the seismic political changes that have happened, in particular, focusing on your state and others as well. what are those changes and since the book was published last october, have out -- how have those changes exacerbated? guest: it is accelerating and ohio is kind of a case study. there is a book called what is the matter with with kansas where several use kansas as an example. ohio has always been the bellwether for this modern politics. we are now the bellwether of how extreme legislature can set off a downward spiral of extremism that is out of touch with the people of the state. as well as the nonstop attack on democracy itself to keep all the other stuff going.

i walked through the book of its -- in the book on how it is happening and if you want to subvert democracy which, sadly, there is a strand in politics today, the same strand that celebrates -- if you want to do that, the best institution to do that through is a gerrymandered statehouse. they can pass laws like in ohio and texas and not held accountable because they carried -- can create districts they can never lose per that began a generation ago and because they -- it is accelerating all the time. the point of my book is until those who care about democracy, and i hope that's not just democrats but independents and some republicans as well as to -- until we care about democracy, and figure out the front line of attack on democracy, at the statehouse

level, until they bring their battle to the statehouse level , they will continue to lose the battle for democracy. the subtitle of the book is a wake-up call from behind the lines. it is a wake-up call to see this is what is happening. it is happening because of hundreds of people like marjorie taylor greene in statehouses who are the majority passing laws, not just tweeting about them. host: you use the word soccer fee -- autocracy, the finding that for us, particularly what you are seeing -- define that for us, particularly what you are seeing across the country. guest: sure, so i go through this in the book. there is a form of government called competitive autocracy. the perfectionist of it is this guide, --guy from hungary.

it feels like a democratic system. it feels like you have elections and treat them like normal but the truth is everything has been determined in advance by gerrymandering interesting -- redistricting. that is what the statehouses have become or are leading to. some will say how can you say this about american statehouses? they went to hungary and celebrated and studied him that -- and that tells you what they are about. they welcomed him to texas to talk about his brand of politics. it has built the conditions for the kind of one person autocracy that some countries have but what we are seeing in a lot of states is competitive autocracy model seeping in and we can stop it if we focus on it or most of -- and most of the results on what is supposed to be a democratic system are predetermined by the very people

in power. that, at some point, is no longer democracy. the reason you have lost passing -- and someone went through this naa new yorker please -- in a new yorker please --peace. -- the reason you have lost passing in states like florida and ohio, and ohio is a state that supports review of a -- roe v. wade very clear but the reason we have laws that makes a 10-year-old girl, a victim of rape go to another state there are extreme laws that don't reflect the views people have is because they create a system in the statehouse, like many statehouses, that is completely of -- opposite of the viewpoint of the people. they create districts that shield them from any accountability for their extremism. that is beginning to look very similar to what we are seeing in other countries. if you saw in other countries do the following things although once, break every reelection so

the results are predetermined, attack three -- than history or sensor history or ban books. make a legal -- in another country, we would watch that and say, my god, that country is losing its democracy in front of us. but it is happening in our own statehouses. because we don't pay attention to statehouses, we don't see it in our own country like we do overseas. the mission of my book is to wake people up to that. everyone from u.s. senators to grassroots people who are frustrated that even when they think they win their political battle, federal swing states for example, it still feels like you are losing it because one side is focused on statehouses where democracy is shaped and the other side hasn't paid attention to these critical institutions. host: david pepper is our guest. we welcome your calls and comments. interesting to hear what the

experience what -- your experience is in your state. (202) 748-8001 republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats and for independents and others (202) 748-8002. david, when did you serve as ohio democratic party chair? guest: guest: beginning of 2015 through the end of 20. so in the world of party chair's as you may know, that is a very long tenure. i was a grandpa when i was done. i was in a lot of litigation over voting rights. i pushed some of the measures to end gerrymandering. part of the book is a personal view of what it is like to be in these battles. host: i am sure we will get a call or two from folks in democratic states who say our state is gerrymandered and it is

completely democratic. is this a democratic or largely republican issue in mostly democratic states? guest: i think it is bad wherever it is. i support legislation that would end gerrymandering everywhere. without the federal template there going to have a race to the bottom. when you have politicians with no accountability due to gerrymandering, you get broken government and politicians who are too unaccountable. there is no both sides here. the intensity of gerrymandering on the republican side is far greater. here is an example, when new york politicians were caught gerrymandering recently after the ruling, it was over. when the ohio republicans are -- were caught, they just kept breaking the law. at the end of the cycle, ohio is going to have a map that is in

violation of the house constitution. new york's map is settled because they followed the law. in places like ohio, they are so intent about gerrymandering they -- gerrymandering, they will break any law to get there and risk consequences that they don't face too often. 2011, the historic level of gerrymandering and with all the computer technology in a more aggressive part of nature put it -- puts on steroids. what has always been an issue exploded after 2011. even in 2018 for example, wisconsin may be the worst gerrymandering in the country. in 2018, wisconsinites voted by nine points in their state for a democrat to be their state representative. in wisconsin, the result is a the result -- the result of that nine point democratic win, is a

2-1 super majority republican in the statehouse. that is a statehouse of minority rule that vladimir putin would be impressed by. once you put together the out of -- the out of touch and extremist records, and one thing that comes with intense gerrymandering is terrible public outcomes. if you no longer feel that have to deliver good public results to get reelected, which you don't naa gerrymandered system, you get reelected. we are seeing terrible outcomes in states that are heavily gerrymandered. these politicians know sending 10-year-olds to other states and the falling apart of roads in a -- roads, naa -- in a democracy

they would lose. they know it. once they have gone down the path of these systems they have to keep gerrymandering or they would lose power. that is why the 2021 process in states like ohio has been even more off-the-wall. most of these people now in office in statehouses like ohio have never once been in ovary election. they are devoid of democracy. it is all they know so of course when the gerrymandering comes up again, they are scared of reelection so they keep doing it. it is at an intensity now that it has never been. while it has happened on both sides for centuries, we are seeing republicans do it in a way that has never been seen. host: you were state party chair for the democrats in ohio for six years. how often did you raise this to national leaders to save you are not focusing on this. this is where the attention needs to be? guest: we got some support.

our fights was we changed the ohio constitution twice. 70% of ohio voters twice voted voted to change the constitution to end gerrymandering, to add some rules. we then actually successfully . because the supreme court of ohio is the one to read the amendment, we went from 870 democratic vote -- court to a court that is three democrats, three republicans and one chief justice who has been a moderate republican. when the -- the point of my book is to say the robustness of their fight at the statehouse level, the coke brothers, a group -- this is in some side thing. the court is to grab the statehouses.

if you look at when they were at congress, they had every office in congress. most of the agenda didn't go through because almost all of their agenda, the antiabortion stuff, it is all with statehouses. my call out for democrats is, this can be a side thing. we can't only think of statehouses after we are finishing working with the federal stuff. this has to be the core mission because it is where the other side's fight is starting and all the institutes -- in the country determine it. it has to be a big picture mindset from joe biden down. unless we go to where the battle is and bring accountability back to gerrymandered statehouses to extremist loss --laws, they will

continue winning the fight. host: we will go to jesse on the republican line, new mexico. guest: thank you so much and i will tell you, i am a reregistered republican since the 2020 election just like you know. that is a little bit, that is the tip of the iceberg for me. i was wondering what you think about this foreword party that andrew yang and others are supporting and the value are su. -- because you seem very smart so i wanted to hear your opinion. guest: i appreciate that. let me just say this, i respect anyone's viewpoint