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c-span brings you an unfiltered view of government. our new stand word for word -- to sign up for this email and stay up-to-date on everything happening in washington each day. subscribe today using the qr code or visit c-span.org/connect to subscribe anytime. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back. we are in our open form segment where our viewers can call in and talk about the most important political or --

independents you can call (202) 748-8002. you can always text us your opinion at (202) 748-8003. and we are always reading your comments on twitter at http://twitter.com/cspanwj and facebook and facebook.com/c-span. bruce, good morning. caller: i want to talk about this bill from the irs. number one, we don't have a physical supply problem.

on that bill, it has been rumored -- that you know how to shoot a gun. host: let's go to jennifer calling from santa marta caller: caller:, california. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i want to say thank you for

taking -- thank you for your show. i get up early watching c-span every morning. it is interesting to see what other people say across the nation since i live in a little small corner here in california. i am really pleased that we are finally doing something about climate change. it has been a long slug. i am 65 and i am concerned about my grandchildren. i live in california and i have to worry about the fires in the heat. i am really thankful we are finally making some progress. i have good wishes and hope for everyone. anchor for taking my call. host: let's talk to kim calling from rapid city, south dakota calling on the independent line. kim, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i want to ask that we should

avoid conspiracy theorists like the gentleman you had before talking about taxes. he talked about the new hires at the irs at the -- at the irs would be carrying guns. a something that has been denied and debunked by everyone in the government. secondly, he was worried about being audited. if you are paying your taxes and you are honest with your taxes, why should you be worried about being audited? he talked about maybe use your home as an office. well, if you have got that much smarts, you should read the rules and understand under what circumstances could you do that. if you are not doing that, you are free ride on the back of the rest of us and in fact, you should be paying up. thank you very much. host: let's go to john who was calling from alamo, california on the republican line. john, good morning. caller: good morning.

i had a couple of things. you were going to talk about the rank voting. i was wondering, no one ever talks about using the internet, your email system to vote on candidates, but on issues. when i use the internet, i buy and sell stock. i buy products all over the country and it seems very secure. it is very convenient. maybe it is to democratic for people that they fear people would conveniently vote on things. that is one of the things i was worrying about -- i was wondering about. the other thing is setting up some kind of control escrow type

of account where each party puts money in, that way the very rich would not honk the airways. host: before you hang up, john, we will be talking about rank voting. number two -- number one, would you cast your vote -- would you trust your vote to the internet? caller: i would if i had to, when it comes to money i can trade $100 online and i trust that process and it seems to work fairly accurately. as i understand, these

transactions are held permanently. things to be audited if there was somebody cheating on it. host: let's talk to michael calling from wheeling, west virginia on the democrat line. michael, good morning. caller: yes, jesse, i would like to say a few things about your previous guest that you had. i am 75. i got out of high school and went to the military four years. i got out of high school worked on my education then i worked for the internal revenue service. the purpose of the irs is twofold. it is to assist taxpayers. individuals or businesses to file their tax returns or get them to file their tax returns and to assist taxpayers to pay with ao or get them to pay what they owe. that is the purpose no matter

what you are with the irs. as far as the union goes that he is talk about, it is called the national treasures employee, into you. the irs is a bureau of the treasury department. they report directly to the treasury. ntu is a union, employees can be either in management or regular employees. approximately 40% of the people in the irs belong to it. your member what reagan did to the air traffic control union. as far as guns goes, the irs consist of an examination which is your revenue agents and tax auditors, your collection which is what i did, customer service area in your criminal investigation area. which is less than half of the total irs employees. them are the only people issued any type of a firearm. as fire -- as far as the hiring

of these 80,000 people goes, it is going to take a long time because they are going to be looking at people that either are cpas or people with accounting degrees, or people who previously worked for the irs or people who work for tax agencies that work with the irs. it is going to take a long time for that to happen. thank you for your time and i just wanted to get the guy straight. he was wrong on a lot of stuff. host: tony calling from flower town, pennsylvania on the independent line. tony, good morning. caller: good morning. appreciate the opportunity. i am glad that a lot of callers are calling in to talk about the previous guest airing in the many ways that aaron was factually incorrect.

liars prevent -- liars present viewpoints that are not facts. i'm a little disappointed in c-span because we have this pattern. a much better format would be to have the think tank liar and then have someone from a good public policy standpoint come in and talk about it. for example, the irs. if we are talking about irs ending, it will make sense to talk about the size of the u.s. economy, how much it has grown, what is the size of the irs, what is their budget. that would be an intelligent way to have that conversation. when you have a guess that comes on talks about the irs coming after little people, facts that are not based in reality, it is unhelpful. i would just go to our media is owned by roughly five companies. c-span gets its funding from the

cable monopolies and so it is going to be a very tainted, privileged product that supports the narrative of the billionaire class. we need people to have more power, control and voice. there is very little room. i know i don't have enough time because i am not against that gets to come on and lie, i am just a citizen with a very small voice. but i appreciate this little space. host: let's go to john who is calling from tampa, florida on the republican line. john, good morning. caller: good morning. my theory with the irs is the rich have too many loopholes to go through. a poor, innocent guy doesn't have to loopholes. he has got one thing, income and then he has got the rest. that is the problem with the irs.

the other problem is with the monkeypox. biden has let all these people into this country without vetting them. without getting them vaccinated. what i want to know is what gives him the right to break one law against the other? he wants everybody to do what he says, but the other people can just walking this country -- walk in. this country is headed for disaster. the american people have to stand up and say something. -- to break the laws of this country, the law says you can't come in unless you're looelly into this country. you come in legally. and he says no, you don't have to abide by that law. just let all these people in. and who pays for it? host: let's go to dan from wisconsin on the democrat dan, good morning. dan, are you there?

caller: good morning. just 2-fold. ok. your last caller, aaron wihe should -- withe should probably go back to the u.k. and get the monarchy's money back from them. last october i called up and the big thing was trump 2024, and i said " nope, by this time next year trump and his cronies will be in jail." liz cheney is doing her job. maybe my prediction welcome true! host: let's talk to mary calling from michigan on the independent line. good morning. caller: hi, jesse.

i wanted to bring up an article talking about the irs that was glenn kessler, washington post, fact finder from august 11, if people would just read that article. about two days ago you had a woman on their talking about the drought in the southwest, and people kept calling over and over again about shipping water through pipes from the great lakes. there are already seven states that take water out of the great lakes for drinking water, plus we would have to deal with the canadian government, so do you think that is ever going to happen? do not give up on the irs. they are 21 million refunds behind and i just got my 2018 refund in the mail yesterday. host: let's talk to al calling

from houston, texas. caller: i wanted to ask, why is everyone defending more taxation? we do not need more taxation, we need less taxation. as far as inflation, inflation is skyrocketing because the democrats have attacked the oil industry.everything is made with oil . how can you attack the oil industry and not cause this disaster we are living through? all politicians are sold out to the ccp, and it is very obvious. host: let's talk to sherry who is calling from muska time, iowa -- muscatine, iowa. caller: it is muscatine. my question is i watch your program every morning.

i do believe i saw a program on water, and i was not sure if you had any information on that? host: i do not, but we can look and see what we can find. let's go to carlos calling from madison, tennessee on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning, sir. thank you so much, jesse. i wanted to touch a brief point here about avoiding online, which was previously addressed -- about building online, which was -- about voting online. i had a problem previously educating online. my mother was able to hook the phone to her system.

i think the phone would count. thank you for the time. i appreciate it. host: we will be talking more about changes to voting in the united states in our 9:30 segment, so if that interests you, stick around. let's talk to nancy who is calling from arkansas on the republican line. caller: good morning from the natural state! it is nice to get through. i am a first time caller, but i do not want to monopolize a lot of time. there is a lot going on in our country that is concerning. we could go on and on, but i think the main thing that concerns me that i have been concerned about and i have made

many phone calls, and do not seem to get much satisfaction from any party is the open border. i do not see how the laws are not being fortified here. i do not understand why this administrationis letting them -- administration is letting them flood in. the lives that are being lost, these poor people thinking they can come to america for a better life. people do not want to come to this country legally that are the people we want in this country. i do not understand why it seems to be ignored. our public officials are saying our country, the border is closed, but it is not.

being from arkansas, i am not a border state, but it is very close to border states, and i want to say the governor of texas sending people to new york, i do not think it is malicious, it is letting everybody get a taste of what is going on. i will end with this quote -- " justice will not be served until those who are affected are as outraged as those who are." that is one of our founding fathers' quotes, benjamin franklin. host: let's go to big sandy, texas on the independent line. jesse, good morning. caller: good morning. yes sir, i was just wondering where our week ? -- where are we?

who are weak? -- who are we? who is in charge? we are destroying our children's future. someone take charge. host: let's go to mike who is calling from long island, new york on the democrats' line. caller: i would like to -- jesse, jesse? host: go ahead. caller: i would like to applaud the people who criticized the guy from freedom works who was throwing out a lot of dumb facts and trying to scare people. the woman who just called up about immigration and borders, the first three months of donald trump's administration, they could have passed any law they wanted to about the border.

the reason the border isn't tightened up -- and i am a democrat -- , the financial -- is because the financial arm of the republican labor wants cheap labor to come into this country. guess prices are a little high. everything else -- to come into this country. gas prices are a little high. everything else is fine. there is so much misinformation. you know, the price of gas just came down $1.50 and most people won't give president biden any credit, so that means the gas company did it on their own. they are getting $15 billion in

buybacks. if people would just understand, read a little, not just go off talking about what a disaster everything is, they would understand stuff a bit more. host: let's go to paul who was calling from dallas, texas on the republican line. caller: good morning, america. i tell you, what has happened to america? i love america. i'm the old school america, and i love america so much. china bought us out years ago. americans are starting to wake up before it is too late. the border is wide open. i do not want to see no kids die from drugs brought in by the cartels. the cartels are moving up the border more. hiring irs people, you know. host: all right.

let's go to mark who is calling from green cove spring, florida on the independent line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i would like to reach out and say, to the caller from alpena michigan -- alpena, michigan. i'm from flint. i wanted to comment about the people calling about the irs. i respected the irs, trust me, i do, but i do not believe they are really there to assist the taxpayer. i believe they are there to make sure we all pay our taxes. i do not agree with the people calling in, that one person calling in particular " they are here to assist you for this, assist you for that." i am 64, and i hardly recall

calling the irs for assistance. i call the person doing my taxes. middle america pays 90% of the taxes, and the trump people don't pay hardly anything. gas prices, we are still paying $2 more than a year ago. what happened to the hybrid cars? that went away. unless you can give me a battery i can swap out at a gas station, i will not sit there all day and charge it. host: let's talk to rob calling from tuscaloosa, alabama. good morning. caller: listen, i wanted to say to the lady who called in about the border being open, she sounds like she is from europe someplace. everybody came here from somewhere accept the

african-americans. we were brought here to take care of the europeans who could not take care of themselves. some good people came from europe, but the good people did not leave europe came here. do not think they were all good people. let these people know everybody came here from somewhere. columbus named -- except of the indigenous people and columbus named them indians. germs came in and killed the indians. everybody came from somewhere. i am being repetitive now, but you need to know just like how the europeans crowded this country, someone else is going to crowded. -- to crowd it. host: let's go to our next caller from virginia. caller: anyway, the reason i

called, i just heard liz cheney say that she would do anything to stop trump from running again. does that mean kill him? does that mean invade his home? what does it mean when she says that she will do anything? plus her heart, she need -- bless her heart, she needs to make it clear what she said. host: let's go to katrina calling from indianapolis, indiana. caller: i wanted to make a comment in reference to the people coming in on the border. no one talks about the immigrant

visa program. our country lets in more than 50,000 immigrants annually through the visa program, and they are coming in from all different countries. they are coming in legally, so it has nothing to do with people coming in from the border. they're coming in from all different countries. we never ever talk about that, and i don't think a lot of people even know about the program. host: let's talk to nancy who is calling from st. charles, michigan on the independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call. i would like people to consider what freedoms are we losing now. we are a free country, but the irs, i'm thinking how much information are they going to get on this?

what is their purpose? what could they be looking for and to certainly find out who we voted for and that will tell them something. on top of that, the democrats are going to allow recreational marijuana in the country, and our children are already taking those marijuanas laced with thc to school in their lunch bags in michigan in our middle schools in michigan in our middle school. -- if our children have altered brains, how will they even know what information will be used about them? host: we want to thank all of our callers who called in for that open phone segment.

up next rob richie and his advocacy group talk about voting reform. we will be right back. ♪ ♪ announcer: the january 6 committee conducted a series of hearings revealing its findings from its investigation. all week, watch c-span as we look back featuring previously undisclosed evidence, depositions and witness testimony into the attack on the u.s. capitol. monday, former justice officials -- and his request to alter the outcome of the investigation. watch monday on c-span, or anytime on demand at c-span.org.

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end of summer sale now through tuesday. save 25% on apparel. there something for every c-span fan and every purchase helps support our nonprofit organization. summer sale, now through tuesday had c-spanshop.org. scan the coaches start shopping now. -- scan the two to start shopping now. now. ♪ . >> washington journal continues. host: we are joined by rob richie, the ceo of fair vote. he is here to talk to us about election reforms. caller: thank you, jesse. host: remind our viewers what fair vote is and what is the mission of your organization? caller: was talking with -- guest: i was talking with your producer.

we started way back when thinking about ways we could open up elections so voters have more opportunities to participate in competitive elections and better representation at the end of the day. the car thing to look at was the structure of elections, the underlying -- the core thing to look at was the structure of elections, the underlying rules. the conditions that truck people -- troubled people about democracy are the rule changes make more sense than ever. it has been exciting to see. it is in the spirit of what the u.s. has always been about, which is a more perfect union. host: who are you working with? do you work with congress? do you work with state officials? who exactly do you work with? guest: we have a component, the bigger component of our

organization fair vote, which is a 501(c)(3) organization, we are nonpartisan, we do education, we do have a point of view. we have a set of ideas we want to get out there, but we do it in a way that is very inclusive, basically working across all those dimensions, local state,, and national. we have fair vote action which can be focused on trying to win things. it can be focused on lobbying and ballot measures, and that kind of thing. host: you have been with fair vote for 30 years, which means you have been there for the organization's entire existence because fair vote is celebrating its 30th anniversary this year. explain the progress fair vote has made in its 30 years. caller: i have done--

guest: i have done every single one of our year end letters. what is happening is bigger things are happening. because we have ideas that are very relevant and i think, speak to conditions that trouble voters, we have been able to be part of national conversations from the get-go. , i called in -- 30 years ago, i called in to ask about preferential voting. we had a op-eds. the former presidential candidate was working with us at that time. creating the conversation, and then changes like this usually bubble up from the bottom. it has been making connections with city and county policymakers and reformers. we now have more than 50 cities using our voting. it has moved from idea into

practice. host: let's make sure our viewers can take part in this conversation. we are going to open up regular lines, which means -- to open up regular lines, which means republicans, you can call in at (202) 748-8001. democrats, your line is (202) 748-8000. independents, you can call us at (202) 748-8002. you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. we have taken care of the past. let's talk about what is going on right now. alaska used to rank choice voting for the first time this past election. let's explain to our viewers exactly what preferential voting is. how does that system work ? guest: the idea is to get the

voters better options. -- how does that system work? guest: the idea is to get the voters better options. options create conversations, create new ways for voters to participate and think about government. when you only vote for one, when you pick one candidate your options become limited. a third candidate enters, it will be a divided field, a spoiler. this is a forever ongoing conversation about how do we handle the shocking possibility of having a third candidate run. we see a lot of state seats in the primary becomes everything. you only get to pick one. we have had people elected to congress with effectively 18%.

voters have more insight other than.just picking one let's say my first choice is so-and-so but i might have a second choice. here is my third choice. ballots can be designed very well. voters like that and find it easy to do. you take those rankings, and another name for this system is instant raw. you have to be strong in first races, but then you can use the backup choices for people who backed someone who didn't run so strongly, basically seeing who does better between the top 2. it is not a majority. the candidate with 25% is knocked down into the voters who voted for that person have a chance to indicate who their second choice is. those ballots are added to their second choice. host: let me make sure i

understand --so if you have three candidates running, the lowest vote-getting candidate, those voters who voted for a second choice, their votes will be added to either the first or second. guest: then you get a head-to-head comparison, instant runoff. host: how did it work in alaska? guest: the voters liked it. on election day, voters had a chance to participate. it was the higher turnout they had in a primary ever. we do not have data yet beyond the first races. alaska is a big state, has a lot of rural parts of the state where the mail does not come every day. they have a lot of military voters. there are a lot of ballots coming in from outside of alaska. an absentee ballot can come in 2

weeks later, but it will still be counted if it comes from one of these remote places. it essentially happens instantly, you push the button and see where the ballots go between the top 2. that is something we would like to see, but in alaska they have such special circumstances. we will get there a lot faster than a runoff election, but it. will take a couple of weeks -- but it will take a couple of weeks. host: does rank choice voting eliminate the need for a second runoff? guest: yes yes. that is why so many jurisdictions go for it.

they are saying " let's just get it done in one round." cheaper, faster, more efficient elections create positive incentives for voters to learn more about candidates. host: let's let our viewers during the conversation. we will start with robert calling from harrison, arkansas on the democrat line. good morning. caller: good morning. i do appreciate c-span. i am sitting here talking to the world! the u.s. post office is part of the u.s. constitution, and we have let that slide by so much. i would remind you the internet is a net, and it can catch a whole group at one time. we need to put back integrity. it has been down. the post office has been used for all these advertisings and

things, rather than the importance of that postmark on the envelope. when you hand that to them, and they stamp about envelope, that is you doing your part and they carry it legal lead to go, and we -- it where it is to go, and we have stopped the process. it is so important that we rebuild the post office to the integrity it has. it is not to be profit-making. it is to handle our communications with each other. host: we are talking about rank toys voting -- choice voting and election reform. guest: in election reform identity is most important. all of those are constitutional rights. you want to know you are

speaking to the right person. a picture is one thing, but a thumbprint is another. our forefathers did not stand there holding a portrait that had been drawn, but the signature was important. a thumbprint, whether it is a mail-in ballot, whether you are standing there, to me is a very important identity factor. i hope you understand that point. host: should we require thumbprints to vote? in some foreign countries they do require thumbprints on ballots. should we do that here? guest: we have to be careful about mixing up the issues of secure access to democracy with broader questions about civil liberties, freedoms, and making sure we find the right balance. there are proposals that if we

did something like that, that every eligible voter would automatically register. we are not there with our systems, yet which is part of the balance we need to do. right now it is frustrating for people. it doesn't feel like elections are as secure as they should be, but they are not as accessible as they should be. one thing i wanted to say about voting by mail, we have a lot more people voting early, and one of the reasons it is catching on as strongly as it is, when -- is, i when you vote earlys and conditions change, it is a huge deal. we had more than 3 million votes in votes who were cast for a candidate by the time they were counted was no longer an active candidate and we have some examples or we

can see when the voters knew that they change their behavior but if you vote early you might -- but if you have the ranked choice system you can noise at that second or third choice count. four states did that in presidential primaries, those voters had 90% of their vote for one of those withdrawn candidates ended up counting for an active candidate. host: you mentioned briefly early gerrymandering is one of the issues. gerrymandering we know favors incumbents. we have a social media follower who is a question. want to know does rank choice voting favor incumbents? in alaska which to candidates will go on to the general election. does rank choice voting favor the incumbent? >> here's what we can say who would favors as the voters. they have a different ability to vote for whom they want and end up getting more representative outcome.

i think if you are an effective incumbent whose earned the right to reelection and can be comfortable with rank choice voting. newly reason you might loses is because some third-party candidate gets and splits the vote. i think if you are not doing a good job it's hard to be shielded by your party label or your trying to scare out candidates from running. it's one that rewards virtue and punishes lack of it. >> let's go back to our phone lines and talk to mary calling from michigan on the republican line. caller: i'm opposed to this rank voting. suppose you have three people running. so? they like the first two people everybody votes for them but then they have to make another choice of a vote for the third person. the third person ends up winning even though nobody really wanted the first -- that person.

i think it is terrible, i think each party should have their own representation is due to vote for and who they would like to have elected. like in france you have to be registered, you have to be a citizen, you also have to have identification before you vote. in france they use paper ballots. i'm not sure if he's familiar with the way the due elections in france and i totally disagree with you because a third or fourth person cannot end up being elected who the people really don't want. you should really tell people the truth about that. host: before you answer. mary we had someone on social media wanted to ask that same question. i'll read that to you their concerns. ranked choice voting is a stealth way of getting losers to be declared winners. possible to get a winner who was nobody's first choice. explain how this works and see if you can deal with their concerns here. guest: you can win -- it's when

you add up all the first choice than the candidate in last places out. so then you don't have any ballots which can go to your second choice because no one voted for you. if you only get second choices you're knocking to win with rank choice voting brain you have to be someone who people liked enough to be first choice and do well. sometimes people sort of miss this out there. it is use widely. it's an parliamentary guides about how to do elections pretty it's used by thousands of ngos, all kinds of in canada, parties from left to right use rank choice voting to pick their leader. the conservative party of canada is using that right now. virginia republicans used it in three congressional primaries this year and picked glenn

youngkin, that's how he won his governor. here's the fundamental thing. you add up those first choices and if you have to -- if you are in last place you're knocking to win. this idea that you might sneak in a sort of the stealth candidate that no one knew about is not true. host: are you assuring our viewers that only the first or second choice is going to win? nobody who's third, fourth, fifth has any chance of jumping the first two people. guest: what you do in your ranking. let's say you rank to sort of longshot candidates and then rank one of the strong candidates third your ballot might count for your third choice because your first choice loses then your second choice loses then it goes towards the third. but you can be -- you can do a candidate who is a very weak first choice and end up winning. that's the core concept and it's

why it's called instant runoff. runoff elections, with a woman who talked about france prayed they have runoff elections prayed they don't just count the ballots and elect the person with the most votes. if you don't have a majority they have a whole second election. you can do that, but in our country it's hard to hold quick elections. turnout usually drops, expenses of candidates. in an instant runoff all the voter has needed to do is dedicate what they are able to do which is what their second and third choices are. host: one of our followers had a question about the runoff thing and want to know can he explain the reasoning behind states who require a majority to avoid a runoff. and i let the person with the most votes win even if only a plurality? guest: a lot of states do. but i think it's like settling, settling on the practical challenges. the idea of saying the moment the most votes even if it's 25 percent and 75% oppose that person is actually not a very

principled decision. you can have 75% of people want a certain kind of representation , a certain kind of philosophy represented. let's talk about alaska. in that context they have two republicans and one democrat. you just do the math, the democrat has the most first choices it doesn't mean she's the most representative candidate. in fact 60% voted for one of the two republicans. sophie just went with the candidate with the most votes you could have 60% of people have a certain view of what they would like and 40% might defeat that candidate. it's not guaranteed a republican will win there because they have to earn those second choices. so one of the republicans is going to finish third. , those of the candidates were fighting it out for second right now. one of them is can finish third, the backers of those candidates will have an option to let sarah palin or mary polar.

in it is fairer to have a head-to-head comparison. i think we often see runoff elections because rank choice voting isn't used as widely, but runoff elections have their own challenges. the big one is you often see real distinct declines in turnout. we've looked at the runoffs for congressional primaries and turnout decline is a most 40% on average winning a whole lot of people do not come back so you really don't have a represented outcome. host: this is a perfect segue into what sarah palin said about rank choice voting this past week. i want to bring to you, former alaska governor sarah palin who is running for don young boss seat in congress and what she said about the rank choice voting that's going on in alaska. [video clip] >> so pay attention to what's going on in our state with this newfangled weird kind of voting system that's confusing

everyone. finding out who craft this thing, it was rino lisa murkowski's lawyer. you can imagine the way that the ballot question was worded, and nobody knew everybody was getting shock stirred by how weird it was. don't let it happen to your own state. if alaska has to be the test case, if somebody for who are instance i just went through this primary, there were 50 candidates in my race, you didn't have to declare what party you are in and i won that handedly, i got more votes than anyone else. i was so grateful for that, but it wasn't winner take all. what they did with that was they took the top vote getters and then they go on to this next process, are you could be ranked first, second and third. it's a bizarre system and

considering the source it came from elite -- lisa murkowski's camp, there is something amiss with it right there. host: respond to sarah palin. guest: first is alaska takes a particular approach. i think it's fascinating, it's not the only way to do this. people might be familiar with how california and washington state vote. they have this open all candidates run together contest and they vote for one and then the two candidates with the most advance. alaska does that also. that's the first part of what sarah palin is talking about. and set of allowing two to advance, she asked they allow four. -- they allow for. -- four. a lot of people want to jump in. she did get the most votes but she didn't even have one out of three voters vote for her. so the advanced four, in california they would've advanced two.

they created this general election where there was more choice than having just to -- two. potentially sarah palin didn't get the most first choice this time. the fourth candidate had dropped out. that creates a rationale to say sarah palin is likely to actually win this election. so think the role of ranch chores voting in it is one where it's allowing voters to have this extra choice but still get a fair outcome. in november where we will see a lot of interesting elections in alaska it will be the senate race in the governor's race again voting in the house race, the same candidates running. i think it's one we will see that outcomes don't favor one side or another. they truly do not. we see this as not a partisan

thing. this is a bit of a frustration. sarah palin is a big platform. it is used widely in virginia by the republican party, by the democratic party and some of their contests. it's adopted in california and utah. it's a sort of mix of places. so there is no partisan agenda here. it is some thing that is pro-voter, pro-having choices fundamentally want elections where you have more than two choices and you can get fared out -- you can get fair outcomes. a more practical way to get the job done. host: let's talk to henry from spring hill, florida on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning gentlemen. my question first is how is fair vote funded. basically my comment would be in the last 30 years, would it be

more beneficial for us to be securing the integrity of our vote, because the biggest underlying threat as everyone's want to say, the threat to democracy would be people's trust in the elections. over the last four or possibly five elections there has always been doubt discourse. i know he wants to make things fair, or he says convenient, we don't need to make things convenient. i think we need to make them where people have confidence and trust in our elections. that's my comment and i believe you would be better well serve the people in this country if you directed your efforts in that direction and not worrying about -- it reminds me of a most abbott and costello when they see the landlord to pay the rent and we cross everything off. host: go ahead and respond. guest: i would say we have more

than one thing to do in this country about elections and we've been part of conversations about that. i'm not only for convenience or security, we have to have accessible elections that are secure. that's not rocket science to do and i think their summer we can get. i like the idea of voter registration systems that get every eligible voter on the roles accurately, someone who is ineligible should not be on the roles and we create opportunities for people to vote. this isn't rocket science. there are systems and rules that get there. that said, we think the idea of accommodating having more than two choices and a fairer way to do that is very fundamental to what makes democracy work in this country and i think we can do a better job at it and we have the tools to do it. host: let's talk to sue who is calling from dallas, texas on the democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning, how are

you all. i just wanted to make a comment. i guess i'll ask the question. i just happen to come on the show by accident watching it and one of the things that i'm concerned about and i'm pretty at this as a democrat, but this talk about election integrity i think is a farce. i do believe any time you can open up the political process to even more people benefits. we know the political process, but i don't believe in a distortions about election integrity. so i guess my question is do you believe that the ranked choice voting opens it up to more people, potentially minorities and women and how would you

encourage others states to consider it? guest: the last caller mentioned how we are funded, we are generally funded by individuals and that's where most of our money is come from. we've been around for 30 years. we weren't a big organization for much of that time. we still try to get the job done paired we've grown and support part for -- partially because of what's going on in the country that creates a discussion about elections. speaking to the most recent caller, we can have secure and accessible elections and we should. the highest percentage of our -- we saw our highest percentage of adults vote in the 2020 election. i think election officials under the circumstances did a good job. we did not see a partisan tilt one way or another.

republicans did reasonably well while losing the election -- the presidential election. high turnout elections are not favoring one party or another, they are pro-voter, need to keep their can stash secure and accessible. on ranked choice voting. we have more than 50 cities using it. we can grow that. it's on the ballot in nine cities and counties. all which were put on the ballot by charter commission. making a decision about changing their own elections. we had a whole lot of places in progress to build on that. there's a group called i think the vote which works with groups around the country. more than 40 states have a group that is singularly focused on ranked choice voting and a lot

of other organizations interested in it. talking about how we reform gerrymandering. with more than one representative being elected on a multimember district, that's a conversation happening in more cities and counties. i think it's really been rewarding for me to see the progress from an idea into people taking action. host: we know they are using ranked choice voting in alaska. nevada has it on the ballot this year where people are trying to amend the state constitution for ranked choice voting for general elections. what is the prognosis in nevada? do you predict this is going to pass. to have enough support there. guest: nevada is a big one.

it's a state where you vote twice. if it passes it will also appear on the 2024 ballot. so the vote this year's continuing the conversation. do we feel we should have an opportunity to look at ways to make it better and to vote yes and keep the conversation going forward. i think the most recent polls show about 15 percentage point, it doesn't mean it will definitely win but it means it is ahead. the same a system that alaska has. it's a wide-open first round, all candidates there, than the top five in this case rather than the top for advanced to the general election and the use ranked choice voting to handle that mix of choices. potentially all the states eat suddenly get a little more general election in action. almost all the races have some

real interesting contests in november rather than what we usually see where it's down to fewer than one in 10 has any kind of general election that matters in states that don't have this. host: i want to read an editorial from the main newspaper in las vegas talking about ranked choice voting. this is what the las vegas review journal editorial has to say. improving voter turnout is a worthy goal but this could do the opposite making the system more difficult to navigate, discouraging people who don't want to list multiple candidates or to vote on 10 different ones prayed if -- it's even possible the eventual winner wouldn't have majority support. this may be absent, but the concept of one person one vote isn't one of them. ranked choice voting is a rube goldberg solution in search of a problem. respond to the newspapers editorial. guest: most charter commissions,

come to a different conclusion. we welcome for debating considerations and we think we win that debate every single time. that's a bunch of opinions that are generally wrong. for the voter turnout one, alaska just used it, it looked like it may have had the highest turnout in its elections ever had. new york city used it in its primary election for the first time, it was the second highest in the city primary in history. the last one that was higher up was in the 80's. the reason for that is voters in fact are not turned off by having choices and the candidates have to do something different. they don't just settle into their first choices are. they say about my people ready to vote for me i can ignore everyone else.

you have a reason to extend the conversation to other people and that means engagement. earning second and third choices when it comes to earning people's respect, that's tied to showing some of the kids were listening. that means more direct engagement, learning about would voters want and so you end up with the people who win in ranked choice voting elections often get ranked first, second or third not just by 51% of the people but by 65, 70% of the people because they've done work to try and connect to voters. it's not always can happen, there's a lot of things the drive turnout but ranked choice voting is positive on that. it is ironic that that editorial writer says that my not win a majority. it happens a lot in nevada right now. they have what's called none of the above voting. it's not unusual for close elections to not be one with the majority and ranked choice

voting is designed to stop that. host: in a ranked choice system are you required to choose a second or third? you can just go in and do what you did in the past. guest: usa voter are getting more options. you can vote for one, your second choice doesn't hurt your first choice. it only hurts if they're in last place and that person is out. just a backup choice, you can say i don't want to use it or i do. most voters do. if you have a competitive mayoral race in a city with four or five people, the top 90% of people decide to do it and they like it. this is one of the things we see in utah. more than 20 cities signed up and a bunch, a whole mix of cities. almost 90% used it and liked it.

90% of people ranked and a high percentage liked it. i think voters like options. host: let's go back to the phone lines and talk to jen on the independent line. good morning. caller: hello c-span and hello world. i'm a long-time listener, first time caller. i just wanted to say here in maine we've had ranked choice voting for the last few elections. we absolutely have better democratic participation. it's less ambiguous, as an independent voter typically have a hard time going to the polls and not being able to vote who i want to because i don't want to throw away my vote.

ranked choice voting it's not a problem anymore. it increases voter turnout i believe. sorry i'm so nervous, but i just want to say before we had ranked choice voting we were not being represented. we had an idiotic republican governor who kept getting elected because the democrats and the liberals kept splitting the vote. ranked choice voting we don't have the issue anymore. we have a governor more representative of our democracy and absolutely love it. i think every other state needs to be doing this. thank you very much. guest: maine has been exciting for us to see. it's been quite a struggle and now it cemented in a good position now. we worked on a series of polls there showing ongoing increase in support for ranked choice

voting up to around 60% from having won with 52%. it's a fascinating result. here's a good example, a call earlier about how women and people of color, it does allow us to consider new choices and new arrivals. women and people of color tend to be underrepresented. they never had a woman governor in maine, one of the states that never had a woman governor. had seven candidates and a woman emerged from that process, winning the democratic nomination in the general election. we have more than half of the cities, a group called represent women studied how ranked choice voting is accessing women's opportunities.

maine just extended presidential elections. they used it in the general election in 2020. it can be using congressional elections. i think this can spread around the country. the way life should be, the way democracy should be sending a signal of that. host: let's talk to bill from asheville, north carolina on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning america, good morning c-span. it's a great pleasure to speak to you. a question regarding the second half of the election reform. i'd like to know why you don't think more of election holiday? that would also help with voter turnout. what say you? guest: -- we like the idea of getting more

people to vote in accessible and secure way. a state holiday has to serve natural support out of there. we are crating alternate ways of getting to that perspective which is they have a lot of early voting and chances to vote off of election day if that's what you prefer. so i think if you only vote on election day and don't have early voting i think we should have a big conversation about making election day a holiday. or certainly on a weekend. why tuesday is a organization that asked that question. i think reading these alternate ways to vote make it not as important. i'm not against it, i'm just saying we should put it in the perspective of what else we are doing to create chances for voters. host: richard calling in from georgia on the democrats line. we are running at a time fast so give us a quick comment or

question. caller: good morning. i learned about the constitution and one vote one rule, why not have that or keep it like that instead of what's happening in the senate, filibusters and runoff elections in georgia. guest: i think one is a runoff election is to play one person one vote system. ranked choice voting is also a one person one vote system upheld in court every time that question comes up because it's counted for one candidate and only goes to your second choice if the first one is not in the contest. a question of how to make sure we are treating voters, all people are created equal, consent of the governed is built into the ether osa of our country -- built into the ethos

of our country. the electoral college gerrymandering, there's a lot of ways to avoid that. i think we can creek conditions of democracy for everyone. -- create conditions of democracy for everyone. host: we would like to thank the president and ceo of fair vote for joining us this morning and explained to us ranked choice voting and election reform. thank you for being here with us. i would like to thank all of our viewers, social media followers and all of our callers for being with us for another edition of washington journal. please continue to keep washing your hands and stay safe out there. have a great sunday everyone and we will see you tomorrow morning. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2022]

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