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c-span or on c-span now our free mobile video app. join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook is just, texts and tweets. our next guest was the member of the u.s. house of representatives, he served as a former january 6 committee advisor. he is the author of the breach. thank you for coming on the program. we have heard a lot of angles about the january 6 investigation. in your view, what is the untold story? guest: the data. when i wrote this, i know people might have been confused about the subtitle at the getting. really, the untold story is how the data formulated the january 6 investigation. the untold story is that this is just the beginning, we have to look to the future. it is about what the information looks like. it is the data and the new jason

bourne of investigative techniques, trying to stop this digital metastasis. host: what was your role in collecting that data? guest: the thousands of interviews they did. when i got there, i was around a couple of technical teams, or one team looked at individuals loans based on subpoenas. also, open source intelligence research. combining that data in a holistic picture of the lengths between individual or group involved in january 6. it was an exciting time to build on this first prototype of a congressional fusion center. we didn't have the resources we could get, we knew we needed more. on the other hand, it did something different and set an

objective for the future that we can at the congressional level, even with a slow moving government bureaucracy, we can look at data that helps an investigation like this. host: one of the things that came out of the data you collected is something you called the monster. it looks like a graphic, explain what this graphic is. guest: it connects the major muscle movements. you can look at rally planners, you can look at the trump insiders or trump team. you look at trump family. look at right wing extremist groups. look at state legislators, the alternate electorate bucket. we link those groups through not just phone calls, but voip, or sms or mms. we can identify what those are through phone records and match

that to open source intelligence research and what they are doing on social media, on the deep internet or on a deep dive into the internet. it is wonderful to have that access to that kind of data. congress is a little different. we look at authorities as a source of law enforcement, this is a public trust investigation so we could not get everything. the fact is, we got enough. with the tens of millions of lines of data, we were able to collect and analyze and it made it an effective way for the committee to look at data a different way and maybe customize their questions they ask certain people in interviews. host: one of the stories that came out of your book and interviews on this subject was on the day of january 6, a call from the white house of somebody at the january 6 -- one of the organizers, can you explain that for our viewers? guest: anybody can call the white house switchboard number or a general number. in that call, and there are so

many more calls by the way that we saw -- that is why these calls are so important. we saw the call originated from a white house desk phone that faltered to the white house switchboard number and connected to a riders -- rioters phone number in the afternoon. we cannot get geolocation data or what we called the tower data. we know there are other white house calls going back and forth between rally planners, some directly connected to the both seekers and proud boys. texts themselves from the oath keepers and proud boys to rudy giuliani. knowing what those extension numbers are and the doj and fbi are working together on this. knowing what those extension numbers are are very important. for the american public, they need to know that data and those types of things were happening

on january 6. host: who placed those calls to the white house? guest: do not know. my guess is the committee is trying to figure out, there is something called a call manager and each person is assigned a phone number to a specific desk. also, cell. when you look and read the breach, the white house and a certain set of numbers are called root numbers, those numbers are connected to the white house. you can look at the root number's from one side of the records, but you cannot see what those white house numbers are versus what is provided. the records still exist in the system. there are technical challenges when you are not kneeling with a law enforcement type of investigation. host: denver riggleman, our guest until 10:00. if you want to ask him questions about his book, (202) 748-8001 four republicans. (202) 748-8000 four and -- for

democrats. (202) 748-8002 for independence. your book deals with mark meadows. the portion says, we never received a cdr from mark meadows, but the telephone text he turned over t committee became the rosetta stone for the nuary 6. they provided information, mead identified many aspects t subpoena by -- privilege. he must have sed or uploaded his own data to the cloud or another stagdevice and he and his legal team turned over this extorting number of messages. in doing so, meadows gave us the keys to the kingdom. we called them the crown jewel. if you could explain what cdr is, can you elaborate. guest: [laughter] i tried to ask wayne earlier in the book, those are called

detail reppert's -- records. we never got those. we know there were other text messages we did not receive content of because they were under executive privilege. without cdrs, it is hard to tell if we have received all the text as it is. part of what we received is pretty amazing. i do not know what they were giving us or if they had individuals on their legal team who didn't know what they were connected to, but this was a evolution of not only the alternate electorate theory that became such a big deal up until january 6, but the conspiracy theories, they talked about italian satellites. we saw bizarre links from sitting members about foreign interference, that was absolutely untrue. not only by common sense, but

analysis. we saw the legislative, executive and legal strategy cap in, texting mark meadows about their cyber investigations and briefing the technical buffoonery to the presidential level. when i talk about the crown jewel, you talk about a roadmap. it is interesting to see that roadmap included things like a supernatural, spiritual warfare type of component to some of the texts. seeing that in one bundle really is a shock, especially when your team is identifying which -- belongs to. host: do you think all you did, those on the january 6 committee themselves used it in the best possible manner? guest: very effectively, especially at the beginning when

you are talking about the text messages and linking them to the depositions that they were doing and taking them to the hearings. i think there is more. when you look at 2319, hundreds of people connected and trying to look at call detail records, social media, their history and what they were doing in the open source intelligence world, on the deep, dark web, you are talking about a massive resource need, a massive analytic and technical need. the committee to be completely effective needs to look at command-and-control worked on that day, and other people that might have been linked. this is not a chatty kathy, people going at each other kind of book. which is a book that is down the line, which tries to make processes exciting as gossip or fantasy. you have got to make facts just

as exciting as fantasy. we have a long way to go. when you look at the number of links, you look at other -- the council for national policy, text messages still need to be explored. you have to think that we just need a little more time and resources to look at the entire ecosystem of that day and the entire coordinated activity patterns that we saw and that the committee pointed out. i think that second, third and fourth level is just as important as that primary level. i have a particular set of skills. the release -- host: the release of this boo issued a statement from the committee,ersced rigell men's knowledge of the committee, suggested the committee was not pursuing evidence aggressively enough.

wrotemitt spokesperson, the committee has run down the leads, digested, analyzed the information that arose from his work. guest: i think there is a typo. i am just kidding. i think when you see something like that, i think they were worried. i have been doing this type of work well before january 6, a lot longer than anybody on the committee. i started to do it afterwards because people who continue this analytical work. my knowledge of this goes beyond what the committee even has. our technical teams are still supporting it. the teams i have built. when you look at millions of lines of data, that is not something that is possible by these investigators. you have to have a unique set of skills or teams we had that are experts in -- and open source

intelligence. i thought the committee did a great job. i do not care about the political backroom washington stuff, people seem to know i have a problem sometimes with -- i do not want to say authority, but i have a problem with not being able to see the whole scope of things based on my background and training. we need to go further with the data. once the committee read the book, i think they got much wider. host: vicki is in orlando, florida. republican line. go ahead with your question or comment. caller: i just would like to say that i hope this book is better than the committee means, because we have been listening to this stuff since january the sixth. we are personally tired of it. if you want to write a book, representative, or who ever you

are, why don't you write a book on 202 when -- 2020 when they was burning our cities down? when they was throwing stuff at our court houses? our vice president was bonding them out of jail. what is funny to me, we do not ever get that side of the story. can you explain why to me? guest: i think when you ask questions like this, sometimes it comes out as sort of a tribal mindset when you are looking at one thing and not the other. we can look at reciprocal radicalization, political violence, things that have been destroyed. when you are talking about an attack on the capital on genuine sixth, you're talking about one of the most meaningful things that happened in history. we had an attack on our seat of power based on faulty conspiracy theories and things that were fantastical. we can look at violence in 2020,

riots, we can see the issues that were there. we have something explicitly political when you talk about political violence or the attack on the capital. when you look at those things and you look at the executive branch that was supporting that, pushing a false narrative of to the public. we need to look at data, look at those linkages to make sure that never happens again. so when you have law enforcement or federal authorities looking at writing in other cities, -- rioting in cities, there is a difference between attacking the capital of the united states of america and a president pushing theories into the population, and those individuals doing it on behalf of the president. looking at data of that is mutually exclusive then looking at what happened in 2020 and writes their. caller: first time caller, thank

you for c-span. kind of nervous. thank you for the work you did on the january 6 commission. my thought is, i feel a lot of people think they are just asking questions. i do not see them interested in the answers. you talk about the data and you talk about the call logs that were found and everything that has come out through the commission. collars every morning on washington journal just completely ignoring the answers that have been found. how can we come together to have a more common narrative of reality in this country? guest: individuals who sadly think it is something, good against evil, some kind of problem they have to solve.

where it becomes almost the religious types, they get stuck in the -- community. the issue is, how do we do this through empathy, dewey do this through anger -- do we do this through anger, do we do this with anger? i think the only way we can win is fight -- i do not know if the committee can convince more than 3% to 5% who are independent or center-right that the election was stolen or the actions of the president and those underneath him, second level or third level right wing extremists, can we convince them that of the culpability of these individuals and the facts that we had such a dereliction of duty not only at the presidential level, but i would say all levels -- whether for power, money. it is almost house to house

digital fighting, you have to engage with people one on one and be brave about it. i am out here, i own companies. i was a maintainer in the air force. i was blue-collar color, white collar. i have done all of that. you can talk to somebody one on one, maybe convince them -- you have to have the facts and data on your side. you cannot guess, you cannot come from a tribal state of being, whether republican or democrat. you have to come as a person who cares about that individual. i found myself getting angry. the data and facts are so important. we have to fight for it. that means people have to vote and get engaged and fight back against bullies. if you get sued by individuals, you have to push back. we see this happening across the spectrum of far right individuals suing individuals to

keep them quiet. this is something you have to do. social media, i do not know how to get everybody out of their self-selected echo chambers. the best disinfectant is sunlight. sunlight in today's information war is data, fast-paced analysis. that is putting people back into a reality based community and saying, listen. you have been deprived. people are lying to you. there is no way there is a group of democrats harvesting children. that is not a thing. the election was not stolen. we do not have italian style lots -- satellites. we do not have venezuelan technology changing votes. we did not have servers changing back to bite and votes. we do not have ballots being burned. this is all fantastical, you use

data to back it up. the fact is, there is no right answer right now. you have to have individuals that are brave enough to talk about data and facts, regardless of the abuse and attacks they get from the tribes or far right rags. the far left and reciprocal radicalization in the future, they start doing things like we saw in january sixth. we have had far left violence. the problem is, the far right is in a -- moment. we have to address that now. that is why i wrote the book. the first caller might say, she was talking about the riots in 2020. she is probably not going to watch the hearings. maybe somebody will read a 280 page book that tries to break it down in a simplest way and uses the data and facts without being hyperbolic. host: the book is called the

breach. why did you leave the committee's work? guest: i had a decision to make. the ukraine freedom alliance reached out to me. i went to take a leave of absence. being -- to ethics is important, i couldn't do both things unless i became a lobbyist or something. i did not want to do that. [laughter] that is what happened. the technical teams were there, i knew the data that was coming in there and i knew the teams that were still there and were so talented. i worked with them so much in my prior lives, i trusted them implicitly and expressly. when you train prickly and lead the right operational teams, you are confident you can go home. host: this is ted, washington, new jersey. republican line. caller: thank you.

appreciate you writing a book. a couple of things have turned me off to the whole investigation. first, he personally see it as a biased committee. there is not diversity on there. it seems the things about trump is free speech. how are you going to monitor that? the thing that disturbs me, it was not a court case. there was a woman veteran shot and killed in the midst of this. my question that i have for you, how come the committee does not sequester nancy pelosi? i have been told that -- by people in washington, she did not call the national guard. they knew this was happening. can you please tell me why she did not call? how come she has not called? that has to be part of the investigation, the national guard was not called in the beginning. guest: when you are looking at

-- i think you are talking about the investigation on security that day, which is the intelligence communications and operations issues they had. had security breakdowns around the capital january 6. the national guard, there is a lot of issues that come with the chain of command, how you execute the national guard and the role of not just nancy pelosi or mitch mcconnell that the individuals they appoint to be in those leadership positions on the united states capitol police force. there is probably a lot of insiders that know this, mitch mcconnell appoints the senate sergeant of arms. nancy pelosi appoints the house sergeant of arms. they are confirmed by the senate. united states capitol police chief does not have a vote on a capitol police force, you have a lot of bureaucratic machinations you have to go through. there are individuals like -- bowser worried about the

national guard and individuals who are going to worry about the optics of the national guard. you have a lot of people worried about what that would look like if you had a militarized presence before january sixth rally. on the other hand, we had intelligence breakdowns where you do not have individuals who know what that intelligence looks like. i think there would have been a different posture if he didn't have some of the intelligence and communications challenges that you had on that day. furthermore, when you look at nancy pelosi even if you think, well, she should have done better on the intelligence and communications front on that day, she appointed him to do a report of what happened that day. there was a disarray. i think people need to read that report. i think -- when you look at the data, it is not automatically like nancy pelosi didn't do something with the national guard. if you saw the last hearing, it seemed like nancy pelosi was

trying very hard to get the proper forces in place based on her pulse to vice president pence and other individuals. that is video evidence. we now have evidence on video that nancy pelosi was pushing very hard for a response to what happened. we can talk about the barriers before hand. be on barriers, nancy pelosi was trying to do everything she could to secure the capital once the threat was known. host: from the data you collected, was there any that definitely ties the white house, the coordination or execution of the events of january 6? guest: there is certainly data that should concern people. something that needs to be looked into. when you talk about -- you have an oath keeper that is texting with a white house aide that just happens to be the son of the person leading the legal strategy to overturn the election. that is a concern. if you have this type of text messages, people say, well, they

do not remember them. it is difficult when you have some thing happening in november or december of 2020, the both -- oath keeper texting back and forth with rudy giuliani. you see rally years directly linked to the oath keepers and proud boys, calls going back to the white house multiple times. you have a white house desk number trying to connect to a rioter's phone on genuine six. how any more phone calls do you have from the white house in those call detail records? there is a lot more. you want to find out all the white house extensions and phone numbers. it is simple for people to hear, it might be diff >> we are going to leave this program for live coverage of the debate between incumbent democratic congresswoman susan wild and her republican challenger lisa scheller.