host: it is a pleasure to have barbara perry, presidential

studies director at the university of virginia's miller center. i want to ask help you and your colleagues are doing a week after that shooting -- how you in your colleagues are doing a week after that shooting. guest: thank you for mentioning it. it is on our minds. we hope that people are able to be with family and friends, but our hearts are broken for families who will have an engager -- an empty chair. it was a hard time having been through what people call charles koch 2017, when neo-nazis

descended on town. it is a beautiful from the usually peaceful college town, and that piece has been broken, but we are strong. host: you mentioned that 2017 is back in the spotlight. i wonder what stuck out to you this week between what is happening on campus and media attention back on charlottesville. is there anything that stuck out to you? guest: the first is that charlottesville, though it is seemingly a bucolic university town, we are not immune from the violence in our country. there are people who are angry and maybe medically ill and can get access to weapons. that was one of our first thoughts for the second is i am in louisville, kentucky for the holiday and i flew over on two different flights. i sent by coincidence to the same ev student on both flights. i said, how are you doing?

she said she lives three minutes from the site of the shooting, so it was frightening. we were locked down for 12 hours. i said how did you get through it? she said the president of the university opened his home to the students every evening, had an open house. my friends and i went and it was a bonding moment. that is my positive take away -- the university is handling this well and we are altogether at the miller center and other units at the ground. host: we are sending our thoughts to charlottesville. you mention your work at the miller center and why we invaded you on. -- invited you on. this past week in the hill, you write donald trump: the next grover cleveland, teddy roosevelt or millard fillmore? explain what those three former

presidents have in common. guest: i got this idea for the first time in november of 2020, thinking that if things seem to be going after expected and joe biden was the winner, what would donald trump do? it occurred to me that he would be the sort president who would want to run again. i remember that grover cleveland did this and was our only president to be successful in doing it. we have had seven presidents, starting with martin van buren and coming up to top and the two most famous are grover cleveland -- he was successful in getting two nonconsecutive terms -- and the other is teddy roosevelt, who served at a term as vice president, sought the presidency after the assassination of william mckinley, then ran in his own right in 1094 -- 1904

and stepped aside for william howard taft. he won the presidency but there was a split between the two of them. teddy roosevelt became progressive and founded a third-party when republicans were not nominated him but all he did was split the republican base and hand presidency in 1912 to woodrow wilson. host: the number you said was 7 1-term presidency and guest: seven one-term presents tosca the hat in the ring for a second term. host: what was it about grover cleveland that was so successful guest: -- successful? guest: in each of his runs, he

won the popular vote and he was popular. we did not have holes in those days, but he was an honest president who did not believe in patronage. but there were issues related to the gold standard. around many holidays, networks showed the wizard of oz. most people know that it is a political allegory. the yellow brick road is about whether gold or silver should now. grover cleveland was in favor of the gold standard, but some in the party favorites over. -- favored silver. that click the party and allowed benjamin harrison -- that split the party and allowed judgment harassing to win -- benjamin harrison to the electoral college. host: you mentioned the term split the party when a former

president has tried to regain office. sometimes they split their own party. explain. guest: they do. this was a bit of the case of this happening, but it happens often when somebody tries for a nonconsecutive second term. typically, he will have been denied his original party's nomination and will split from the original party and go to a new party. in the case of van buren, that controversy leading up to what would have in his second, nonconsecutive term is often terribly tilting issue for the country. a new party developed called the free soil party that was an attempt to ban the spread of slavery into new states. that party ended up being pulled into the new republican party in the 1850's. often, that will happen.

there is some destructive issue that is already spreading boaters and parties. second, if it splits one of the two major parties at the time, it usually allows the other candidate from a party that is rather united to waltz into the white house. host: are we at a point where one of the two major parties could see a major split? guest: i do. i thought when 2016 it might be the case and maybe in 2020 that bernie sanders and that wing of the democratic party might run the third-party candidacy. sometimes, all you need is somebody like ralph nader who gets enough votes to serve as a spoiler, as he did in 2000 for al gore. if not for ralph nader siphoning off votes in florida, al gore would have won florida and the

electoral college. it does not even take a major third party, but i could see that happening. we could see it on either side. what if donald trump does not win the republican nomination for 2024 but forms a maga party ? that would probably split the republican vote and allow the democratic nominee to win. host: if you ever have a question about presidential history, barbara perry is a great person to talk to. we encourage you to call in. here is how we split the lines. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. this piece from the hills part this conversation. is it the next grover cleveland,

teddy roosevelt, or millard fillmore? we do not talk much about millard fillmore. can we dig more into him? guest: he was president from 1850 to 1853. teddy roosevelt came to the presidency of nightly death of zachary taylor. here i sit in louisville. zachary taylor was born your charlottesville, but like many virginians, he came to kentucky and settled in louisville. that retailer did eventually. i am sitting about two miles from the home that zachary taylor lived in in louisville. he is buried about two miles from me. this is often atypical scenario where the vice president will succeed to the presidency.

with john fowler, that was after william henry harrison. the presidency -- the country does not really want that person to run for presidency in his own right. often, the party turns on that vice president who has succeeded to the presidency. that is what happened to millard fillmore. he did not get the nomination of his wig party to run for a term in his own right. he waited four years and joined what was a new party at that time, first called the native american party, meaning they were anti-immigration. waves of immigrants were coming into this country. i am mostly of german extraction and rest of my family came in that period of upheaval in europe and settled in louisville. my mother grabbed in germantown near louisville, kentucky. there was an anti-german,

anti-irish movement at that time. they were somewhat secretive and there was sort of a cabal. they were told if you join this party and someone asks you about it, say you know nothing, so millard fillmore ran as a know nothing. that is not the best pr name and it is not a great idea to have your political party if you want to win the a secret. host: so on that string of vice president's whose party turned on them, what are other famous examples of that? guest: john tyler is another. in addition to ohio, virginia is known is known as the mother of presidents. we have all of them pictured in our front room. william henry harrison, running with john tyler. william henry harrison, after only 30 days as president, passed away.

it used to be people said probably from pneumonia because he gave a long inaugural address in the cold rain and people said he got cold, wet and got pneumonia. that is probably not true, though. i am a doctor of political science, not medicine, but i did a program recently for the white house historical association. we had a scholar who is an expert on how william harry that she william henry harrison guide . they think he died of typhus because of poor sewage handling in washington, d.c. that is an example of john tyler not getting the nomination and being upset. truman had a bit of a run in his own right in 1948 after he had served most of franklin roosevelt's fourth term.

1952, truman was grandfathered into the constitutional amendment which now limits presidents to two full terms, he could have run again. but he was defeated in the new hampshire primary by a tennessee senator who ended out becoming the vice presidential candidate in the ill-fated stephenson ticket in 1956. sometimes, presidents are not wildly popular if they succeed through the death or resignation of a president. gerald ford lost to jimmy carter in 1976. host: barbara perry joining us. we are talking about an article also available on the front page of the miller center website. barbara perry has made 45

appearances on c-span over the years and you can also find her on c-span american history tv, covering the programs she does around the country in her various roles on c-span two on saturdays. 24 hours of american history television. there are calls for you. this is charles in new jersey, an independent. caller: pleasure to talk to leo. i have got a question about the upcoming elections. friends of mine are on both sides of the donald trump question. are we going to vote or not vote? my question is, has america lost its ability to look at character? is that going to the a problem going forward? the past president has clearly described his character in his

actions. most would agree that character is important. the way he chose not to exit after the american people had voted him out is a disappointment for me. i would not vote for him for anything. thank you again for your time. i hope i can get an answer to that question. guest: such an important question. there is a book by the late political scientist james david farber called presidential character. i remember reading that in college at the university of louisville. he said that the word character comes from greek. it is what life has stamped upon a person. i view it as the court of a person -- core of a person.

we would like to think our presidents have personal and professional character. when it comes to professional character, i would say honesty and integrity. when you look at grover cleveland, you will say that that is what he was but to be. [no audio] [no audio]

[no audio] but voters have to be careful about who we choose to run and for whom we vote.

caller: a little tidbit about millard fillmore. the compromise of 1850. he was for that and that helped him the soap -- it helped the civil war start later. that may have helped the outcome of that. also, i think the know nothing party is like an ada -- like maga party is that they are worried about jobs that got outsourced, but nobody ever talks about the fact that jobs are always being taken away by advancements in technology.

that is something the maga party never thinks about. -- so it was a compromise about slavery. as new states were being taken into the union, the issue became do we recognize slavery in those states? the non-slave states were concerned that the states allowed inflated people to exist that they would overcome the non-slave states. there was constantly an attempt to compromise. there was the missouri compromise and the idea that wants a free state was taken in that there would be another slave state coming in. we also have to remember that the founders created a compromise in 1787 about slavery , because the northern states which did not allow slavery did not want enslaved people counted

in the population to determine how many people based on pocket this -- based on population would be coming into the house of representatives. as thomas jefferson said, even though he had slaves, knowing that when they signed the constitution, he said slavery is like a fire bell in the night. you suddenly have this terrible problem. he also said slavery was like holding a wolf bite the years. you cannot let it go because it would eat you but you do not want to keep holding on to it. even he, the master of enslaved people, new it would eventually break up the union. host: on compromise, the great compromise or was it that henry cliff? guest: yes. a kentuckian. host: why was he the great

compromiser? guest: he was the man who said i would rather be right than president. but that was probably because he kept losing in his attempts to become president, that he fashioned a compromise that made andrew jackson very upset the first time he ran in 1824. clay split the vote among john quincy adams, andrew jackson and henry clay. and had to go to the house of representatives because none of those men have a majority in -- had a majority in the electoral college. the deal was done, a compromise between client and john quincy adams that john quincy adams agreed to put in his cabinet, making him secretary of state, if clay threw his support to duncan evans. that allowed john quincy adams to get enough electoral votes to

win. you can imagine how jackson felt. it was a dirty deal in his mind, but that was a compromise in play -- caly's own interest but he was also staving off civil war. the mitch mcconnell center, located here at the university of louisville, and for those of you who do not care for the senator, i can tell you he put together a compromise with paul weber, who was a liberal democrat. the two of them came together and compromised about the issues and said let's do this for the good of the commonwealth of kentucky. we have a lot of good tunes and we have a brain drain. they going to eastern schools. one person -- can we give them a full ride, internships in washington, take them to china?

it has been highly successful, as well as teaching civics in a nonpartisan way to teachers in the commonwealth. that is a local example of a compromise between a current senator and a former professor. it has had a huge impact on kentucky and we hope the nation. host: you mentioned a candidate who cap are a presidential bid. you mentioned another one in your column. remind folks who harold staten was. guest: as a teenager, i was a huge tonight show fan watching johnny carson. harold staten became a punchline. in writing this column, i've got, i will look him up. i remembered that blind as an

also ran. he started out as a legitimate politician. he was governor of minnesota, a republican. he tried for the first time the 1940's, failed to get the nomination and went on to be president of the university of pennsylvania. then, every four years he would tip his hat for the republican nomination. see ended up holding the record of nine times. but he never got the nomination of the republican party, never tried to form a third party, but he did become a joke. host: i think we are having some trouble with the connection. we will get that back as we hear from nelson in hollywood, florida, a republican.

are you with us? caller: yes. host: we will go to minnesota. this is douglas, democrat. caller: i noticed in the portrait of millard fillmore that the photographer insignia was brady, new york. i was wondering if that is the same brady that they all the famous photographs of the civil war? it sounded like his term was prior to the civil war, which also leads me to ask about an african-american painter named h.o. tanner. henry ossowa tanner. his middle name relates to a town in kansas, kind of a sleepy

little place now, which bills itself as the cradle of the civil war. jon gruden was there. kansas, of course, was a territory. missouri was a slave state. missouri wanted kansas to be a slave state also heard there was a bit of a conflict there. finally, it just so happens i met -- the spoiler of the gore presidential run -- guest: ralph nader. caller: yeah. walking down the street in connecticut, i made a u-turn, said hi. he invited me to the american museum of court law in winsted,

connecticut, which is where heaton now does a lot of writing. -- he now does a lot of writing. it was a coincidence to meet him just walking down the street. host: you bring up a lot of topics. barbara perry, which one or two did you want to pick up on? guest: thank you for sharing that anecdote. i met ralph nader in the 1970's at the university of louisville not too long ago, he called my office and said, i think he wanted to talk about doing an oral history, because the miller center has been doing presidential oral histories since the national archive went out of that business. we took it on starting with gerald ford and his administration and we conducted presidential oral histories.

we are nonpartisan. a lot of people reach out, senators, members of congress, others we did not pursue it, but it was pleasant to speak with him. but he was the spoiler in 2000. we think george w. bush won florida by 300-400 votes, so it denied al gore the presidency. i wanted to pick up on also want to, kansas. i love that name. in 1910, teddy roosevelt was already thinking he was breaking with william howard taft, who went on to be chief justice of the united states, which was really the job he wanted. he never wanted to be president. i also loved him as a former fellow of the supreme court working for william rehnquist.

taft built the current supreme court building, not by hand, but he was chief justice. it is the most beautiful temple on capitol hill, but teddy roosevelt when all the way to kansas in 1910 and gave a speech that was his jumping off point to try to get the nomination of the republican party in 1912. it is a highly progressive speech. you can find it online and you will think, he was the aoc of the party. the name of his party was officially the progressive party. this town in kansas figures very -- [no audio]

[no audio] -- and in 2000, it looked like

we were headed for the tie in bush v gore. i started getting emails from my student. they were saying remember when you taught us about the electoral college, how does that work? i said, we go. if there is a time where no one gets a majority of electoral votes, let's say joe biden runs at the top of the ticket and tru mp forms a maga party and ron desantis gets the republican nomination and that splits the american electorate so much that none of those gets a majority, it then goes, according to the constitution, to the house. they must determine by a vote whether one of these will become president, but here is the trick. it is not done by the front of 35 members.

they vote as delegates from their state. each state gets one vote. typically, whichever party would indeed be the majority of the state delegation would probably win. my thought is we know that the republicans have taken the house. they control the delegations of each of the particular states. it is likely, unless those states would split between donald trump and the republican nominee, it is more likely that they would come together as republicans and probably elect the nominee of the republican party. host: another hypothetical -- 25 state delegations for one candidate and 25 for another? guest: i think it then goes to the senate and they vote as individuals, but we have never had that happen. we are in unprecedented times.

host: this is james, independent, georgia. that was changed. this is jane in illinois, democrat. caller: good morning. my husband and i have visited over 50 residential sites and homes. i have to being remember i think it was zachary taylor, where they had a tailor shop. that was interesting, because you could hear the scissors. they also -- i also have a question. how many presidents were from ohio? there were quite a few, as i recall. my second question is isn't al gore qualified to be president? he has tried to save the planet

and i think he could save democracy. guest: good questions. i am admiring that you have seen the homes of most residents. maybe i can do that in retirement, and to all the presidential libraries, which would now start from the hoover administration onward. they are also building one for teddy roosevelt in the dakotas, but all presidents from hoover onward have official presidential libraries. fdr was the first one. heat deeded over a major plot of land, which was upsetting to his mother, but she finally signed the deed. he developed the first presidential library. i am not sure you would have been able to see a home of zachary taylor in louisville, may be in orange, virginia, because the one in louisville is

privately owned, but you can see where he is buried. al gore, yes, is qualified by virtue of the constitution to the president because he did not serve two terms as president or even one. he is getting a little old to be president, but not by today's standards. he is in his 70's. as of yesterday, we have our first octogenarian president. ohio and virginia tie for the most presidents. for regina, it is 7 or 8. i think it is the same for ohio. host: google note 8 -- notes 8 presidents from ohio. they are all listed on the secretary of state's website. guest: andy john kasich at some

point was vying for the presidency. caller: hello. there was a question about presidential history. wasn't pat buchanan running as an independent in 2000? didn't he takes votes from bush? the george rogers clark memorial is in indiana, not too far from you. guest: thank you for that. we are not far from each other. my first job was as a docent here in louisville the last home of george rogers clark in louisville. he had lived across the ohio river in his eponymous he named clarksville, indiana, but he had an accident when he was elderly and unmarried and had to come

over with his sister in louisville. he is buried here, along with muhammad ali and colonel sanders. pepe cannon in florida, you are right. he was running as an independent and a very right wing candidate who could not get the nomination of his party. he tried in 1992 against george w. bush. he damaged bush in the primaries and in part led to his defeat for a second term,, although a lot of that is because of ross perot, who got 19% of the popular vote in 1992. pat buchanan, you might recall the infamous butterfly ballot in florida, particularly in the palm beach area. you might remember the concept of the hanging chad,

when people would punch on this butterfly ballot, which was already confusing, because it was hard to see which candidate you are punching for. when people would punch on the whole, it would not necessarily break the chad out and sometimes, it would just be dimpled or hanging by a thread. you might recall the judges in florida, judges of the election, holding those punch up to the light to see if there was an actual vote. i was lucky enough to go to the first of the two oral arguments of the bush v gore. i ended up sitting next to the county judge of palm beach county. he had been on tv attempting to count the pregnant and hanging checks. he had never been to the u.s. supreme court, so i had a good time telling them about the

symbolism in the courtroom. everybody who is anybody was there that day. i remember ted kennedy coming. host: there is that famous picture with the big magnifying glass. guest: that is the same man i got next to at the supreme court. host: running short on time. another segment we do not talk to obama about on c-span but would like you to -- do not talk much about on c-span, don would like you to talk about william mckinley. guest: the expert on that is a former editor of mine who taught for many years at the university of texas, lewis gould. keep it as an expert on the history of the early 20th century. -- keep is an expert on the history of the early 20th

century and has books on mckinley and other presidents of the era. i know that mckinley had a wife who was quite ill and he seems to have been very kind to her. personally, he is considered of high moral character. professionally, there are people who object to the imperialism of the u.s. and that foreign policy at the time. the spanish-american war occurred at that time and we are taking over places like the philippines and hawaii and spreading as an empire in the post-civil war period. and we are still the most powerful nation in the world. mckinley, unfortunately, ended his second term as president by being assassinated. that has been all too common. host: learn more about presidential history at millercenter dot org.

barbara perry's director of presidential studies there. thanks for your time.