has been watching this closely. we have some inside information on that. you are right. it has always been tough to be compliant with a lot of government regulations. me and the other cochairs and our organizations have been talking to lawmakers about that, like, how do we make it easier for small businesses? we cannot make it so complex. one of the things we understand, and we will be watching this closely, so if you follow us, you will get to see how we are working it. we will be watching closely on how they roll out this irs deal. from our understanding, it is not designed to be punitive. it is designed to help small businesses be more compliant and provide more resources for small businesses and individuals as well.

that is what we gathered as we were there talking to lawmakers, that they are trying to make it easier by bringing more irs staff to the forefront, and it will not delay things so much and it should make things easier. we will be a voice on capitol hill for small businesses. host: what is the biggest challenge facing small businesses today? you mentioned health care, affordable health care. what else? guest: inflation is tough and not only inflation but, recently, when we couldn't get supplies and things like that, a couple of my clients and members of the organization were struggling. there's a small business decorating company for the holidays. when they cannot get supplies, it makes it difficult. the main thing, when it comes to pricing and housing, that forces

us to increase our pricing or have to cut somewhere else, so i think inflation is one of the biggest challenges now for a lot of small businesses. host: i want to play you republican congressman john joyce and ask you to respond. he took -- he took to the house floor last week to talk about the biden administration's policy toward small business. [video clip] >> the inflation caused by president biden's policies has hurt small businesses. according to a recent survey, 37% of small business owners were unable to pay their rent just in the last month alone. these businesses are struggling because of joe biden's decision to put socialist priorities ahead of working americans. instead of supporting businesses and improving supply chains, he

paid workers to stay home instead of returning to american energy dominance. he turned to green new deal policies. instead of fighting inflation, joe biden wasted trillions of dollars and sent prices skyrocketing. more than 60 million americans are employed by small businesses and they are being crushed by these radical policies. it is time to return to fiscal constraint. it is time to stop the reckless spending and it is time to once again -- >> the gentleman's time has expired. host: what do you think of that? guest: that is kind of contradictory somewhat to our survey. 73% of the small business owners said they approve of the inflation reduction act.

some of those what people would call socialist programs, we face those people who are receiving the supports, seniors, parents, different people who work for us. we don't get the opportunity to throw at a survey and not see people and hear them talk about what impacts them. i wish there could be a separation between what we as business owners have to feel and what employees have to feel, the like the gentleman we were calling earlier, the very small businesses don't have that separation. we don't have that separation where we look at things from a different lens. the ira raises the refundable research and development tax credit from 200 $50,000 to

$500,000 starting in 2023. that is what we need. we need more support coming from washington. i cannot speak for the lawmaker who just spoke, but he probably needs to speak with some of us on the ground and talk to small businesses, like the gentleman said earlier, the mom and pops. we have a different view than a lot of these other people. host: let's talk to giovanni next, a small business owner in st. louis, missouri. good morning. caller: good morning. in 2017, when the republicans passed that 21% for small businesses, for the first time in 20 years, i pay quarterly

taxes. i got a check back for $14,000 because under the obama administration i would have paid the taxes. i was able to file for that year and received $14,000. i used it to hire more employees. i also believe we should be paying more for -- and let the businesses pay less for diesel fuel. i am having problems running my trucks because i'm paying five dollars for a gallon of diesel and it is hurting my business bad. i believe the government should do something for businesses that use diesel. and also lower the food costs and price of the products, many

different types of products. i believe the government should step in and help people who are using diesel to make money for their businesses. host: let's get a response. guest: there are many unique challenges when it comes to policy. one of the things i will employ you to do is make sure -- will implore you to do is make sure you wind your voice. a lot of small businesses that take these surveys reach out to us. we will put your issue to the forefront. there are different things that small businesses need. we have to be really active and aggressive when it comes to what are the unique needs of the different small businesses. i would encourage you to reach out to your local chamber, reach out to us, so you have a voice

in d.c. to talk about those issues particular to your business. host: james is in durham, north carolina. hi, james. go ahead. you are on the air. caller: the gentleman said earlier, talking about a recession, i wanted to make this blanket statement and ask one question. rupert murdoch has said that news was just entertainment. i was looking at tv and we have spent an astronomical amount of money. now, are we really in a recession or is the inflation something about hype? what is your take?

is inflation causing recession or are we really in a recession or is this just type? with so many people out there spending money, it is like no one is worried about anything, so please explain. guest: i am not an economist so i will not say whether we are in recession or not, but i hear two different sides of it. unemployment is down at a record low. we are creating jobs. one thing about small businesses, i would not say we are recession or depression proof, but i will tell you one thing about us, we are very resilient. whether it is inflation, a recession, depression, low economic climate, small businesses are resilient and we try to figure it out. we do try to get people

employed, make sure our communities are taking care of. people are spending money. people are still creating different lifestyles. it is conflicting in a lot of ways, the messages you hear. as it relates to media, media is media. it became entertainment when we had 24 hour news channels. it is more entertaining because there's different choices. you have to go to the sources that tell the truth and stay close to them. host: let's talk to kendra next, a small business owner in flint, michigan. caller: i have a quick question. do you think they could start a program with internet access for small business owners in schools and stuff so they have 24 hour access to the internet without

having to pay astronomical for it? because you have a home service and a business service that is kind of separate. host: what do you think? better access for the internet for small business owners. guest: i know the current administration has done a lot in that area, really looking at that infrastructure. that infrastructure bill that passed was huge. that is going to add a lot of access for small businesses and communities of color, low income communities, and it will expand your reach. so i would say look at your state legislators. that infrastructure money is designed to do that. that bill is huge in that space of increasing broadband in rural areas and urban as well. host: i wanted to ask you about

something congressman john joyce said in the clip i played you. this article is in bloomberg.com. the headline is more than one third of u.s. small businesses could not pay their rent in october. it says rent delinquency rates among u.s. small businesses increased significantly. what is behind that? guest: rent even in the residential had gone up extremely high. it goes back to how do we address these different issues when it came to small businesses? what happened, mimi, is everybody says the pandemic is over, but for small businesses, it is not necessarily. we still have a lot of residue. we still have a lot of casualties. we have to pay back loans and take care of different things.

it would not surprise me if a lot of small businesses could not afford to pay their rent. it is challenging when you have all this relief money but, you know, we are still going to have to pay some back, like the gentleman said earlier. we are still going through it. our employees, some of them came back to work for us, and it is challenging. this has been the toughest 2.5 years i have been in business since i started. i think a lot of us are reeling from it but there are a lot of opportunities and resources that can fix and adjust that. host: we will wrap up with this question you got overtaxed. he asks, in 2008-2009, president obama put in the health care requirements for small businesses. many small business owners i knew did not want this because

they did not want to offer health care coverage to their employees. is this still the case? guest: it is back-and-forth. some of us want to provide health care to our employees but it's not affordable. that is where the challenge is. we understand that small businesses have a lot of expenses. the other part two it, like the other guy alluded to on the call, is the compliance part. even if we offered health care and it is affordable and all of that, do we have to comply with a bunch of paperwork to get that program? so all of that has to be looked at. we have to make sure that when you put together any legislation or policy for small businesses that it doesn't cost them to comply with the regulations, but we definitely want to offer any

advantages to our small business owners and i think we even have it on our survey, a lot of the small business owners would love to offer affordable health care, but not affordable at the expense of it being cheap. i am saying that on purpose. we do not want cheap health care. we want affordable health care that will be good for our employees. host: shaundell newsome, small business for america's future co-chair, thank you. happy small business saturday to you. guest: we appreciate you and we appreciate c-span. host: coming up at 9:15 eastern, our weekly spotlight on podcasts segment. we feature martin di caro of the washington times and his podcast history as it happens. but first, open forum. you can call now and i will be taking your calls soon.

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agencies and state governors. scan the code to order your copy. every purchase helps suppor our nonprofit operations at c-span shop.org. >> washingto "washington journal" continues. . host: welcome back. it is open forum. i would be interested to hear your thoughts on anything related to public affairs or politics, anything happening in washington. we were talking about the gop taking over control of congress next year and vowing to launch several investigations into the biden administration. you can call in about that or anything else. regarding those investigations, here's a clip of house gop leader kevin mccarthy. he is poised to become speaker of the house, talking at the border last week in el paso.

[video clip] >> we have lost operational control of our southern border, empowering drug cartels and human traffickers. they have fired shots at our national guard. they put ak-47s pointing at us, helicopters. they have burned and hung and raped the women and caught them on fire. and again, secretary mayorkas thinks the border is secure. he has blocked ice and border patrol from enforcing our laws while vilifying them at the same time. do you realize what that has done? in the last 10 days, three border patrol agents have committed suicide, a total of 14 this year, a number we have not seen in decades. he ended the remain in mexico policy and wants to end title 42.

his actions have produced the greatest wave of illegal immigration in recorded history. our country may never recover from secretary mayorkas dereliction of duty. that is why i'm calling on the secretary to resign. he cannot and must not remain in that position. if he does not resign, house republicans will investigate every order, action and failure to determine whether we can begin impeachment inquiry. sec. mayorkas -- if he was in charge of any company, he would have been fired now for the failures of what he has caused. the american public deserves

more, better and expect more from their government. enough is enough. host: it is open forum and we are taking your calls split up by party affiliation. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. yesterday was black friday. here is cnbc about that, saying online sales to hit new record, expected to top $9 billion. it is a record for the industry. global shopping also hit a record high -- mobile shopping also hit a record high. and here is foxbusiness. it says black friday sees low

turnout in lines at retail stores. shoppers previously weighted in front of stores for hours before black friday began. i am wondering what you did. give us a call. one more thing. it is the world cup. here is the new york times. england and the u.s. tied yesterday. it says this, the chant came from deep in one corner of the stadium, ringing out loud and clear for a few moments before fading back into the general cacophony of the night. it is called soccer, the united states fans bellowed at their england counterparts. it is called soccer. the u.s. team will be playing iran tuesday.that should be interesting . interested to hear your thoughts on this open form. peter is first in melbourne, florida, docrats line.

good mni. caller: good morning. i am calling because i'm democrat and basically i think what occurs with a lot of people you don't really do anything. you sit back and react to somebody else's actions. i am just urging the people in florida to get out and vote and, i mean, it is never t late to start bringing young people into our party. and what desantis has done to the state i think is a shame. host: let's talk to skip in washington, d.c., independent. caller: hi. how are you? as an independent, i tend to look at both sides of an argument. i would say the republicans are on solid ground if they focus on

what's taking place at the border. because that is a major problem in america no matter which side you are on. if we can come up with credible solutions, the majority of americans would support that. where i disagree with what the republicans are doing is focusing on conspiracy theories and different aspects of what they want to have hearings on that are not based in fact but more based in the delusions of a lot of republican supporters. for example, that there is major fraud in our elections, the elections were stolen, things like that. the hunter biden thing, i am

curious to see what they come up with with that. and if it turns out that there is no -- if he did commit certain crimes that he should be indicted for but there's no major conspiracy that involves the president, then people are going to look at that like, ok, you are wasting our time. let's focus on the serious issues, which i agree the border crisis is a serious issue. host: mary in columbus, ohio, democrats line. hi, mary. caller: watching the business -- sorry. watching the business, basically, i was employed by a small business for 20 years. i was very disappointed when the aca was whittled away. it would have helped a lot of people, a lot of businesses.

having that kind of whittled to very little was very disappointing to me. so thank you and happy holidays, everyone. host: bob in eagle river, wisconsin, republican. caller: i just wanted to say that our border is out of control and trump did have it under control and i am a republican. if you truly want to fix the border problem, give us a number. we let one million people in a year legally. we have never heard a number, how many people they want to come into the country illegally. and remember, we all live on north america, canadians, mexicans. we are all americans. if you want to change the world, let's see the united states make mexico and canada part of our country. thank you. host: travis in yonkers, new

york, independent line. caller: yes. good morning. i want to comment about the border situation being talked about. it is a bit disingenuous for mccarthy and his friends to talk about a threat being posed at the border when the greatest threat now, as i see it, far too many deaths being caused by guns. i have to question the authenticity of this conservative about the danger that the border poses with all these mounting deaths are taking place in schools all around our country. it does not sit well with me. it seems very bogus. host: all right, travis. let's take a look at social media. here's a text we got from joellen in new york.

she says investigations are necessary to enlighten half the country to the anti-american activities of the current president and administration. those who refused to see and hold our government leaders accountable. a text from paul in kansas city, missouri. is this the same kevin mccarthy who does not stand with the capitol police who bravely defended the safety of congress and our elections on january 6? just asking. let's go next to brian in dickinson, north dakota, democrats line. hi, brian. caller: good morning. i have a few statements i wanted to make. first, with inflation, if we would just stop shopping and spending all our money with these extreme prices, maybe the big businesses could do something about lowering them, but as long as we go out and spend $9 billion buying a bunch

of stuff we don't need, we have no reason to fix the prices or change them. clearly, we don't have a problem spending this much money. as far as the border, i think that if we could bring some of our troops home, maybe build some bases close to or on the border, and have our troops secure it, i think that would be a good idea and it would bring people home and we could maybe have some progress there. as far as people complaining about drugs being brought over and the border being in crisis over fentanyl. what is wrong with the people? why are these people depending on these drugs are wanting to put them in their body to begin with? that should be a problem we should look at.

thank you for taking my call. host: shirley in north carolina, republican line. hi, shirley. caller: yes, hi. the question i have, it's why is the border totally open? i don't understand it. host: ok. robert in athens, alabama. independent line. hi, robert. caller: good morning. the lady just got through talking about the border. if you listen to the republicans immediately after president biden took office, they started making public announcements that our borders are open, wide open.

some of these people like ted cruz and rubio speak spanish. they speak spanish well, going down to mexico and making announcements that our borders are open. then, all of a sudden, there is an influx of people coming from the south, here, that come in here because they were invited by our representatives. as far as afghanistan, that withdrawal, president trump gave all authority to the taliban and took it away from the army, the afghanistan army and the police forces. host: what do you mean, robert? he gave all authority to the taliban? caller: yeah, before president biden took office, president trump made a deal with the taliban, giving all the authority from the united states

to the taliban and took it away to the after -- from the afghan army. they lay down their arms and president biden had two choices. he could either redeploy 200,000 american troops over there for another 20 years, or do we exactly what happened. leave afghanistan the best way he could. he had no backing over there. we only had a few troops over there. that was president trump that did that. host: all right, robert. let's take a look at yahoo! news, and editorial from the daily news, saying the house gop needs to put its priorities in the right place. republicans who focused on inflation, crime, and other problems made gains. those who sloshed the -- of

trump did not. our next caller, good morning. caller: excellent teamwork between you and your team -- i want to speak to a couple of quick things. first is change management. change occurs when we elect new representatives, and we have done that. then they come in and say, we are here to make change. if they don't understand and have not taken a masters level course in change management, they will never be able to be of value to any legislation. that's first of all. second of all, we are facing the fact that our defense budget is

not being passed on time, the authorization. now, our military and all of the organization, my military base is 22 miles from the border. they have to plan for infrastructure upgrades, new courses to train students, and they don't do this two days or two weeks out, we have a five-year planning cycle for the military budget. every time the military budget is delayed, guess what? the spending is on a continuing resolution, so they can't spend any more than last year. inflation has already impacted that. finally, with inflation -- [inaudible] host: looks like we lost anthony. sorry about that. stephen in underwood, washington, republican. good morning.

caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to talk to you today about the border. i think it would be helpful for people to think about it in a different way, that this is actually a program, that there's people within the government, they are in charge right now that have a different philosophy. they believe that the land here in the united states, some of it, like the west, like 120 years ago, the united dates government nullified spanish land grants that had been enforced for 100 years before that, and re-granted the land to other people. there are people in this country who believe that was an illegal activity. they think of people from the south of our border move up here to the north, that's a way of granting them that land back that was taken from their families years ago. since their population is mostly from native americans, they

think this is some form of equity and justice to have this going on. that's why the border is not a crisis to them. they do not say it is a crisis and it is not a problem for them , and they think it is secure. in their view, it is. the only people coming in here are people who have a right to come in here or who owned the place. that is what you are seeing here. it's not a mistake, it's not an error, it's not mismanagement, it's just appropriating. host: greg in san antonio says this on a text -- if the u.s. southern border is "wide open at the direction of president biden," why are we paying border employees to do nothing? travis is next, fort lefton, colorado, independent line. caller: yeah, hi. i want to bring up the fact -- i

keep hearing about the guns -- that is our promise to our representatives, to uphold our constitutional freedoms. without it, we are no better than any of the other communist countries that have been taken over in the past. host: when you say the guns, are you talking about the second amendment? caller: yes i am. your second amendment packs up your first amendment, which gives you all your god-given freedoms. host: all right, craig, democrat line, alabama. hello. caller: yes, thank you for taking my call. i have to fully agree from the gentleman from athens about afghanistan. trump did speak to 5000 taliban soldiers before he was voted out

of office and released the second in command behind osama bin laden -- i forget who it was that was the leader for the taliban, but he came in second. he was also freed. these are the same people that attacked that airport when we were leaving out. second, immigration. we have enough money for drones in order to surveilled the whole southern border and everything else. we've got planes that can surveilled the border. if republicans stop with the fights against funding just to try to get back in power, we can get this immigration thing under control with more judges, immigration lawyers, all this funding that they claim is socialism. i don't understand how we can move forward when we keep voting in people who don't think government should work. that's all i have. thank you for taking my call. host: let's go to plano, texas on the republican line.

patricia, hello. caller: how are you doing? yeah, i'm talking about the border to -- excuse me. i would just like to suggest, will you please show some of the ability of -- the video taken and the thousands and thousands and thousands of people coming across the border. don't sit there and tell me that it is fake, it is closed, that nobody is coming across. just like that one woman who called in the other day -- there is nothing going on down here. i live right on the border. don't snowball people, lady. host: dale is in college park, maryland, independent. hi, dale. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. let me preface -- i am a 15 year marine corps veteran, and i want to talk about the distraction that congress and all these representatives that get up there, and some of the people

calling in today about the border. our issue is not at the border, it's in state legislatures and policies that are passed that are easy for companies to hire people under the table, ok? people are coming here for a better life. they deserve that. they should follow the proper process. there's nothing wrong with that. if people really paid attention, they would see that there are more people overstaying their visas than coming across the southern border. we are being distracted once again. stop being distracted and make congress do their job. for the past 20 years, we have not had actual legislation. we've only had executive action from president to president, crisis to crisis, and it needs to stop. thank you so much for taking my call. host: luis is next in oregon, ohio, democrat line.

caller: hi, yes. i would like to talk about inflation. inflation is caused by -- people don't know this, but so many people are gouging and buying up products, like 20 packs of toilet paper and five loaves of bread, which is going to go stale, and we are just creating our own problem with the inflation because we keep buying and hoarding these products, which we don't need as much of. host: really, you think inflation is being caused by people hoarding now? caller: yeah, there are so many people buying products up and trying to resell them or two to three times what they are worth. it goes on all the time. for the little girl that wants the doll that everybody has hoarded, the parents have to pay three times as much to buy the thing for her for christmas. so all we have to do is stop hoarding and going in and trying to make a buck on the american

people. control the spending with gas, everything. we control everything. if we stop for one week and did not go in and hoard and buy everything up, there would be plenty of product for everybody. host: all right, luis. let's go to the republican line next. charles, hello. caller: hello, thank you for taking my call. the first thing, we need to secure our borders. the second thing, [inaudible] we lack all three. joe biden is ignoring the immigration laws. host: so charles, i did not hear your second thing. say you are thing again? caller: free press. host: free press? caller: yes, we need free press

and equal justice under the law, and we have none of those. you have joe biden ignoring immigration law and have no idea what's coming across the border. they are not coming back and seeing a judge. they are being allowed to take bus rides and [inaudible] a free press right now. host: the line is a little bit bad, so sorry about that. i am having trouble understanding what you are saying. angela is in cape cod, massachusetts, independent line. caller: good morning. good morning, everyone. i hope you had a wonderful thanksgiving day. inflation -- i will be 87 in a few months, and this president biden is the worst president that has ever had the oval office. inflation is caused right now because trucks are not able to

fill the gas tanks. the diesel fuel is costing them unarmed and a leg. how do you expect them to stay in business and give all our products to the stores and companies that need it when they are paying so much, a lot of trucking companies are going under? that's where inflation is. with the impending railroad strike, little pete buttigieg, you do not see or hear from him about this impending strike. this will cause another boost in our inflation. as far as the border goes, all the msnbc, cbs, not one of those journalists go down to the border to see the strife that has been happening, the drugs, the trafficking, the 130,000

kids in the united states that are being raped and sold into slavery from the cartels -- people better wake up. half of this country is undereducated. host: all right. let's go to michaela in ohio, democrat line. caller: hi, my name is michaela, and i wanted to speak on the whole biden versus trump issue. i happen to be part of gen z, so watching this show every morning from my grandma, i see a lot of the older generations opinions on things. i was wondering if i could get mine. what i'm trying to say is that growing up as a biracial person, half black, half mexican in a very prominent white community, i have actually seen so many older generations be very hypocritical. when the democrats do this, the republicans do that. it comes back to a generation issue.

this generation, the boomers specifically, you guys only care about your social security. you didn't care about the environment, the well-being of the person next to you, you only care about yourself. my generation is trying to fix that. we are trying to get a better border rule, have people come in and make this country great. we go on about how great this country is but no one wants to do anything. i hear everybody bitch about biden. biden is not that bad of a president. when trump was president, i felt uncomfortable walking around in my own hometown because people treat us terribly because of our color of our skin. you can say it is not a thing anymore, but it is. when people say certain things, they think it is ok because they are used to getting away from it. host: when you say your generation is trying to make things better, tell me about some of the things you are doing to try to make things better. caller: we are trying to be socially aware with being open

to other cultures. learning about different people and different ways of life. yes, in this country we are american, but we are not american in the sense of only the way the white people unfortunately want us to be. what makes america great is all the cultures, everything. we are a melting pot of people. people come here for the land of the free, but it does not feel very free right now. i am saying this older generation, you guys have caused a lot of pain and i am sorry you guys have gone through a lot of hard things in your generation, but you guys need to be a little more empathetic. as much as you guys want us to change and we need to do this and that, maybe you guys should take a look at yourself and be part of the change. instead of being stuck in your ways. host: all right, michaela. that's all we have time for for open forum. thanks to everyone who called or tweeted. up next, martin di caro, the

washington times correspondent, discusses his podcast "history as it happens." it's our weekly spotlight on podcast. stay with us. ♪ >> "book tv," every sunday on c-span, feures latest authors discussing theironfiction books. at 2:00 p.m. eastern, a discussion about the qualities that make rate military and civilian leaders with the author of "standing tall." john davis and his book "combat to college," and the author of "elite souls." later, an account of the penn state child-abuse sex scandal, with his book "in the lions den." find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online, any, at book tv.org.

>> american history tv, exploring the history and events that tell the american story. on the 60th anniversary of the cuban missile crisis, we revisit the confrontation between the u.s. and soviet nuclear powers, focused on crisis leadership and the impact of political and military intelligence. and that conversation regarding what educators face teaching colonialism at the first thanksgiving. tch american history tv every weekend, and find a f schedule on your program guide, or watch anytime online at c-span.org/americanhistory. >> life sunday, december 4 on in-depth, chief new york times

white house correspondent peter baker and susan glasser will be our guest to talk about russia, the trump administration, and equality. the married couple have written several books together. joining the conversation with your phone calls, facebook commentstexts and tweets. in-depth, with peter baker and susan glasser, life sunday, december 4 at noon eastern on book tv, on c-span two. ♪ >> do people who know him well, mark is first and foremost unaccomplished storyteller. second and not least, he has been for 25 years chief of the

library of congress' rare books and special collections division. the library has over 150,000 items in the collection, including charles dickens' walking stick and the first book printed in what was to become the united states. and the contents of abraham lincoln's pockets on the nights he was assassinated -- 90 was assassinated. he has a lot more to add to a conversation about his word. >> on this episode of book notes plus. book notes plus is available on the c-span now free mobile lab, or wherever you get your podcasts. "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. my guest is martin di caro,

discussing his podcast "history as it happens." guest: i say that to all my guests on my podcast -- i am flustered already. happy thanksgiving. host: happy thanksgiving. now i get to interview you. you are not doing the interviewing. tell us about the podcast? ? guest: "history as it happens," as i always say, is a podcast for people who want to think about current events in the news historically. i launched the podcast to get more historical thinking and play. there's plenty of political thinking and partisanship and political science out there -- i find it exhausting after a while. what do i mean by historical thinking? we will take one example that i have been focused on my show recently, populism. right wingism, populism, trumpism, where did this all come from? host: what is populism?

guest: i had an episode on the show, pointing down a you -- eight usable, heuristic definition of populism , not a fake of dachshund -- fake definition of populism, because it is so broad it can apply to almost anything. 19th-century american history -- farmers, smallholders, ordinary people of modest means, they made up what we could consider a social movement. it was not a political ideology. it was a social movement at trying to compel the government to regulate powerful interests that were making life difficult for ordinary people. the railroads, bankers, people of great opulence. they wanted to have a nationalized railroad system, take railroads out of private hands, because in those days -- we forget this in our modern world -- the railroads were the

most powerful interest in the country in the 19th century. they did have a monopoly, and this is where some of our antitrust laws come into play later. they also called for silver coin edge. some of these issues no longer obtain to our current situation. the populist party, or the people's party, adopted a lot of the greenback party platform. dealing with currency issues. they also wanted to ban foreign land ownership in our country. so it's not a perfect analogy here, not all of these issues translate to today, but those were the original populists. these ideas were making it harder for more people to get by. bernie sanders is a populist, donald trump is a populist, robbie -- ross perot was a kind of populist. it can apply to a lot of people from different political persuasions. host: and our viewers can start

calling and if you would like to talk to our guest. it's our weekly spotlight on podcast segments. you can call by party affiliation. emma kratz, 202, 748--- democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. what perspective does this give you? guest: sorry for my rambling come along history lesson -- host: we've got plenty of time. [laughter] guest: i'm used to asking questions and letting historians speak, and i allow them to share their expertise. the importance of history -- we will stick with this idea of populism, or we hear a lot about fascism now. everything happening today comes

from something somewhere in our past. i think what studying history does or looking at current events historically, it may make things seem less existential he dire. things are not unprecedented as we believe. to take this idea that there is a fascist movement in our country, or as many people say online, the republican party is trying to do a fascist revolution in our country, or we are teetering towards authoritarian professionals -- a tory if -- authoritarian fascism. you can look at where a lot of trump's ideas come from. i have an episode called buchanan's party. if you look at the immediate post-cold war world, when pat buchanan ran for president in 1992, i am surprised he has not sued donald trump for stealing

his lines. on c-span fantastic website, you can look up pat buchanan's announcement, when he ran for president in late 1991, a couple of months before the new hampshire primary. he talked about making the nato alliance pair their fair share, getting out of endless wars and endless overseas commitments. he talks about the problems of globalization and free trade, the same things donald trump talked about with nafta, etc. host: we have that clip, so i want to show it. pat buchanan is on face the nation. this is february 1992, two days before the new hampshire primary. >> mr. buchanan, the president outlined his economic plan tuesday night. what is yours? >> my economic plan, he put together a bag of proposals, tax credits, here and there. there are a lot of gimmicks in it and it is designed to get the president past super tuesday.

i do not think it is the vision the american people need to get the economy moving again and it is not the long-term strategy to make america first again the way we once were. >> that is your comment on mr. bush's plan. what is your plan? >> my plan would have been much more dramatic. the president would have had to freeze spending immediately. i believe his tax cuts should have been much deeper. the capital gains taxes something president bush has not even fought for. we are losing industries like autos, steel, we have lost tv's, vcrs, radio. the japanese are putting up supercomputers, flat panel technology and challenging our aircraft industry. where is the plan to make america first in manufacturing again by the year 2000? host: buchanan set the stage for

donald trump and 2016. guest: not just buchanan, yes, but he was called the paleo conservative in those days, meaning a throwback to the first america firsters, right? he said america first. i heard those words. the context is important, because we are still living in a post-cold war period. buchanan was speaking at the start of it. he is talking about his time with the cold war over to reevaluate our overseas security commitments, to stop looking inward because we have been neglecting our own manufacturing for too long. he was talk about japan and that clip, today you could just insert the word china for japan. and culture war ideas were important to buchanan, and to the populist right today. there is another speech you can watch of his at the republican national convention, where he makes a joke about cross-dressers, he was also a

celebrity, as was donald trump, and had this pub nation's file and was not afraid to live insult and go there, right? he showed you could get away with quite a bit. buchanan only got 30% of the vote in the new hampshire primary against george bush, but that was significant. you can see the splintering in the republican party, post-cold war, the splintering of the reagan coalition. we are way past the party of reagan at this point. the republican party is very much a populist, if you want to use that term, party, and a party of trump. but all this talk about unprecedented, trump came out of nowhere, never seen anything like it -- there is some truth to that, but it is not unprecedented. pat buchanan and the new right from the early 1990's. host: i wanted to talk about a podcast you did called the end of trumpism, after the midterm elections. is this the end of trumpism?

guest: i think i said that as an interrogative statement on the podcast -- the end of trumpism? maybe. only f try to predict -- only fools try to predict the future. how much of a future he personally has in the republican party, i think that's unclear. it's not looking great for him at the moment. there is still another year or so before we get into the heart of things here, that a lot of donors are leaving him now, republican party leaders are not just privately, but publicly distancing themselves -- we will see, because ultimately, the people have the final say. we have an open primary system and some of these people might come back. but although there is a question of whether trumpism can survive without trump, this brand of

politics is here to stay. ron desantis characterizes some of that, culture war stuff, hostility to immigration, essentially upending some of the republican nostrils we got used to from the reagan era. we can still see some of that there -- lower taxes, deregulation, etc., but i think this style of allah takes is here to stay. host: let's take a question from a viewer that send us a text. jimbo says he is an independent voter -- can mr. to caro speculate as to how president reagan would have viewed ms. greene and the movement in general? guest: speculate? i would say ronald reagan would not approve of the far right today. he was not a big fan of it then. the far right was not a big fan of reagan at times.

a mythology has built up around reagan in the decades and see left office. it's been more than 30 years since he left office, 40 years since he came to power. the far right did not appreciate reagan when he was dealing with the soviet union in the late 1980's. they thought he had gotten soft on communism and was being snookered by gorbachev. turning the tables around, i do not think reagan would appreciate the far right, especially in term of our overseas commitments. reagan was very much a believer in alliance building. i interviewed a historian at the clements center of texas. reagan was not hostile to immigration. he very much believed in alliances. japan, actually -- he made japan the centerpiece of his asian policy. he was a huge supporter of nato and very much believed that the united states had to engage in the world as a way of preserving democracy.

his record wasn't the utopia that i just described. the reagan administration supported plenty of right-wing authoritarian movements to fight communism, but when you look at some republicans today talking about defunding support for ukraine, right, or curtailing or cutting back drastically the u.s. support for ukraine, ronald reagan would want nothing to do with that. host: let's go to the phones now. scott is in maryland, democrat line. scott? caller: hi. is there an opposite of populism? my understanding of populism is, like, i don't know if it's complaining about a lot of issues, but the popular issues. i feel like either party has to pick whichever popular opinions on issues don't conflict with their party, you know?

they all have to dive into some populist issues. guest: i think both parties, to a certain degree, have co-opted populist ideas. that's what happened in the 20th century. the reformist progressive, woodrow wilson, teddy roosevelt, taft and others co-opted what was very much a reformist agenda. what would you call the opposite of populism today? probably however defined, the establishment. not for the people, the deep state is one way of putting it. host: let's talk to cornelius next in louisiana, republican. host: -- caller: hi, meaning. you are the greatest host. i want to comment on that. i am an african-american, a republican and stuff. i am 61 years old, i will be 62,

and i think you've got history little bit wrong. i was a military police officer from 1979 to 1994. when reagan took office the first time, if those hostages had not been given up, we would have gone to war with iran then. i just think, you are talking about populism and stuff. i supported ross perot. to me he was a populist. guest: i would agree. caller: trump was a populist. it's just that people, we want this country to be a goodly and godly country. that's what it was years ago and stuff. i think you just missed the mark on some things. thank you and god bless c-span. happy thanksgiving to everybody. guest: i agree with the caller

that ross perot was a populist. i don't think ronald reagan wanted to go to war with iran. fortunately for him, up until the moment that ronald reagan was about to be inaugurated, jimmy carter was on the phone, securing the release of hostages from iran. the iranians despised carter and the u.s. administration so much, they did not want to announce it. reagan got some of the credit for that on his inauguration day, because it wasn't out until reagan became president. the iranians wanted carter to get no credit for that. but that aside, reagan was not a warmonger. his critics said he was. his critics were afraid that he was trigger-happy and pushing the world towards nuclear war, but not counting his support for, as i mentioned, his -- some right wing, authoritarian guerrilla movements in africa and elsewhere, he only

sent u.s. troops into combat once, and that was in granada. caller: good morning. a couple of things i want people to understand -- the washington times is a republican, right wing newspaper owned by the moody's. the moony's. that's what they are. so when people listen to the podcast, you need to keep that in mind. you were defending trump, which i thought was interesting, but here is the deal -- you have mentioned trump and buchanan as populist. if populist is defined as ordinary people, like you are talking about, they were not ordinary people. they were privileged elite -- wealthy people from wealthy families. these are not ordinary people. they had a very different view of things. how trump ever became a populist

and popular with his base baffles me, considering most of them are of modest income, they pay taxes -- he doesn't. host: ok, joanna. let's get a response. guest: as my listeners probably know, my personal politics are not on display, and are not far right. i would encourage her to give it a listen. many of my guests are liberal historians, so i think she would enjoy it. i do not defend donald trump. i think you should be disqualified from ever holding office again based on january 6, and i think his presidency was a regrettable one for the most part. now, her last points, about how people like buchanan and some of these others got labeled populist when they themselves are certainly not living as

average people, ordinary beings -- one point is, your own personal situation has less to do with you are a populist versus the policies you are espousing. elizabeth warren, you would call her a member of the elite. she espouses an economic populist message. i do not consider donald trump much of a populist. i would put him in the fake populist category. host: let's talk to mike, on the republican line from houston, texas. caller: hello. thank you for being there. i would disagree, when we mentioned the invasion of ukraine, i do not think putin would have invaded ukraine if reagan were president. it never would have happened. that's my opinion. i think reagan's strength and the uncertainty that other people leaders or tyrants like putin would fear him.

that's exactly how trump delivered his foreign policy. the enemies of trump feared him overseas. also, the lady who called in on warning about washington times being liberal -- i'm sorry, conservative -- the litany of left-wing institutions across america is stunning. big social media. academia. hollywood. academia is the breeding ground for college education. the impressionable minds of 18 to 22-year-olds. it's not a close call as to who has the usual controls around the impressionable minds of our youngest voters in america. host: all right. guest: i think there is some truth to his last point. cultural liberalism is dominant in many areas of our society. as far as whether putin would

have invaded ukraine if ronald reagan was president, that's an impossible thing to know for sure. that's a counters oracle. we are talking about a past era and something happening today. keep in mind, ukraine is not part of nato. if ukraine had been part of nato , that is more important rather than a calculus for putin. whether ukraine may have been a part of nato had ronald reagan been president in the 1990's, that's another counter historical -- for the caller who's interested in ronald reagan, i just did my most recent episode -- it's called reagan's vision and i interviewed a republican, a former republican policymaker who is now a scholar at the clements center and the university of texas. you might enjoy that conversation. we talk all about reagan's foreign policy, the good and the bad. host: let's check in on twitter.

this is derek. he says the gop is rhetorically populist with voters voting against their own interest. gop interests are ultimately those of billionaire donors. the rank-and-file and the constituency is extensively fighting against. what do you think? guest: there is some truth to that criticism. that criticism has come from some people on the right in the wake of the midterm elections. this one fellow, his name escapes me, but he is part of the movement called the national conservatives. they are gaining influence on the right, in his view anyway, that the major reason why republicans underperformed in the midterm elections, they did not have a working class, middle class on the economic program. they focused on the culture war stuff. maybe there is some validity to what that tweeter said. host: let's go to charlene in california, democrat line.

caller: yes sir, you are absolutely right. trump was a fake populist, reagan was a pretty good president, and i believe if things had been going on the way with putin had done it, he would not have gone in to ukraine. open up the door and you are right -- you could take out mr. buchanan, what he said about japan and inject china. china's government have sent all their educated people over here and they are inflating others on our jobs and their country. hey, it's both parties fault. we the people, it's our fault. we need to stop breaking down into parties like that and start looking at it as individuals and vote for our own interests. if we don't start doing that, we will lose everything. that's my comments. guest: i think both parties must

own the institutional failures that have damaged american society over the past 30 years. nafta might be in that category. the global war on terror had bipartisan support, support among think tanks, the mass media -- one thing i tried to avoid on my podcast is partisan stuff. there's enough of that out there. i am trying to do more historical thinking. it's impossible to avoid politics -- i do a lot of political history, but she makes a great point, that both parties own this. all of us actually own it. host: all right. i will ask you about history and charles lindbergh, the original america firsters. what was his role in this? guest: that brings up my point, that what we are seeing today is not terribly unprecedented. where did this term come from in the late 19th century, early 20th century.

remember, the united states had been a neutral country since the first days of the republic, right? involvement in world war i was seen as a big mistake in the aftermath of the war. this is where we get the america first movement. charles lindbergcame onto the committee for 15 months, which was disbanded after the bombing of pearl harbor. they were barely on the wrong side of history there. but this idea that in those days, they called it fortress america. they were not pacifists, they just don't want to get entangled in another european war. they opposed foreignness, they were hostile to immigration -- hostility towards immigration became popular after the signing of the act by calvin coolidge. the sense that the united states could be could sustain itself

without having to get tangled up in what was going on in much of the rest of the world. this is a difficult position to stay consistent with, because the united states was a burgeoning economic and military power after the spanish-american war, 1898. we get non-continuous territory in the philippines, cuba, etc. the first america firsters opposed world war ii and american involvement. they were isolationist, but no one calls themselves an isolationist. i talked about it -- the united states does not need to be involved in the rest of the world. buchanan brought these back open after the end of the cold war. you heard the clip before -- i encourage people to listen to his campaign speech when he was running for president in 1991, when he talked about these things.

it's time to reevaluate our expensive military commitments overseas. you might call him any oh isolationist -- a neo- isolationist. donald trump pulled america out of the paris climate accord, several other deals, but charles lindbergh and donald trump are very different people. host: let's speak to our next caller. hi. caller: you guys keep talking about trump. trump is nothing like pastor republican presidents. he has a more dictator-like mentality, and the gop also has that. if you are talking about history, you have to talk about everybody's history and how people contribute to history. they keep trying to take away the african-american contribution to history. i wish you guys would stop

comparing trump to any president. he is the worst president i have ever been under. i voted for reagan and bush back in the days, because they voted for the interests of the people. trump has no interest in making america great. only for a part of some of the people, not for all of the people. i wish you guys would stop comparing trump to reagan and any other president. guest: i agree with that. trump is totally different than prior republican presidents. my point about his politics not being unprecedented, there are lineages to pat buchanan, george wallace -- you want to talk about racial resentment, the strategy makes an adopted after 1968, and charles lindbergh -- if you listen to some of charles lindbergh's speeches, you hear echoes of trumpism in there. host: michael is on the

republican line in parkville, maryland. hi, michael. caller: my question is, or my comment, not only would there not have been an invasion of ukraine of reagan was president, i don't believe there ever would have been 9/11. not in their wildest dreams with a ever have thought of orchestrating that, which probably took about 20 years, and it came up in the administration of william jefferson clinton. that's where it started. guest: where do you think -- host: where do you think this belief comes that no one would attack america -- guest: everyone remembers beirut in 1982. the united states was subject to multiple terrorist attacks,

including one that killed more than 200 marines. that happened when ronald reagan was president and he pulled the u.s. out of lebanon as a result. as far as 9/11 goes -- i will point out this fact of history. through the reagan administration that dramatically expanded support for the mujahedin in afghanistan and the red army in the 1980's -- ok? they gave a lot of arms organization and legitimacy, sending the money to pakistan, to the mujahedin parties. the c.i.a. did not support al qaeda, but that created by the united states -- obviously, the soviet union bears the brunt of responsibility for invading afghanistan, but it gave birth to this problem in afghanistan, or helped birth it with support for the mujahedin and radical

islamists that are still in play in afghanistan, who are still fighting the united dates do not know if we can give reagan a clean bill on that one. host: let's talk to kelly, an independent in birmingham, alabama. caller: good morning. i know my question is a little bit off your format, but i was wondering if you guys had any insight to the potential of money laundering investigations being pursued with the opening of trump's tax returns? guest: i have no idea. i'm sorry. i cannot help you on that one. host: joseph in stewartstown, pennsylvania. democrat line. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: the first thing i wanted to do was defend your host today, because somebody said he is from the washington times and wanted to dismiss him

immediately. i don't think that's right. you listen to what the man says and then you make a judgment. i think he's pretty honest and he is conservative, but he is pretty honest. that's the first point i wanted to make. the other point i wanted to make, i am kind of wondering how you are going to react when, i believe it's inevitable that donald trump will be indicted for what he did with stealing the documents and not returning them, and then covering it up. guest: that's a great question. what would happen to donald trump's chances to win the republican nomination if and when he is indicted? i think there is a good chance you will be indicted, based on my reading of the news. i read the same news you read and i have no special insights here about this -- i think for his base, it won't make any difference at all. because of the way the

republican and democratic primaries are structured, the base could be enough to get you the nomination. maybe not a general election victory, we just saw that play out here in the midterms -- all the trumpet or -- trumpist or trumpy candidates were defeated in a general election a couple weeks ago. that's why a lot of establishment republicans have had enough of trump. host: let's talk a little bit about elections and nihilism. is that part of populism or is that unique to president trump? guest: again, populism is a slippery term. you can stretch it to -- i think there has always been a lot of conspiratorial thinking and populist politics, but not to this degree. this very much has to do with his personality and his ego. i think that's why a lot of establishment republicans in his former supporters have had enough. you can't keep talking about the

past. as they say, elections are about the future. host: let's hear from mark on the republican line, in phoenix city, alabama. caller: hi, i just had an observation. i used to be a republican for most of my life. i still consider myself conservative, but feel that the republican party has gone completely crazy. i am afraid of what trump almost did to this country and i need to clarify that somebody is going to do something about it. guest: if the caller is still with us, i would like to ask, sir -- you are obviously not a fan of trump, as i mentioned before -- i am a reporter, i do not like any politician, but how do you feel like people like ron desantis, the wine, or others without all that baggage?

caller: they are not a true representative of what a conservative's. they are radical and everything they do, they are trying to destroy the vote in the country. i live in alabama and i now consider myself an independent, but i can no longer stay silent about this matter because people are not recognizing these problems. they are just voting with their heart and forgetting about what their vote does to this country. guest: there is truth to that. i think we also have what we call negative partisanship -- i am not gonna care how bad my candidate is, but i cannot stand the person from the other already. the fact that so many of the worst of the worst election deniers were rejected by the american people on election day shows that people are paying attention to this. i think extreme positions on

abortion were also rejected by american people on election day. most people don't want to ban all abortion in this country, even in conservative states. i think you saw that to during the midterms. i do not bill myself as an election analyst over here. host: david on the democrat line from oakland, california. hi. caller: hi. i heard the gentleman mention ronald reagan, and i was in high school. i think of crack cocaine and the closing of the mental hospitals. the start of the homeless problem, it started then, and when crack cocaine came out, it's like they left the toothpaste out and could not get it back in. throughout the money being made in this country with drugs, especially because miami was built on drugs -- when this guy speaks on ronald reagan, people in california my age think of

crack cocaine and what it did to our city. guest: my own view on reagan, he was the second most consequential president of the 20th century. that does not necessarily mean good or bad. influential, second-most after fdr. i don't think is a -- his domestic agenda has aged very well. trickle-down economics has been proved to be alive, to be honest with you -- a lie, to be honest with you. host: our next caller, thank you. caller: i have a few things to say, thank you for your time. host: briefly, james. caller: i think religion and guns are going to destroy this country from within. we do not have to fear the chinese are the russians. we are self-destructing. i would also like to see if the committee would ask the people in front of them how much money they are getting from the nra -- that will tell the american people why the nra is still

selling guns to 18-year-olds in this country and destroying our own country because the nra is so strong and the politicians are taking money from the nra -- it's so simple. host: let's get a response. guest: i will just say this, since we are running near the end -- so much existential dread in these calls and in our society in general recently about the end of democracy and the rise of fascism and the last election -- our country is in decline. i think some historical thinking would help people, things don't seem so dire. we do have serious problems and our democracy does face challenges, but our democracies and institutions have been proven more resilient and robust and i think more people thought possible. look how strong turnout was

during the midterm election. there was so much fear about voter suppression, but turnout was great. that's one example. host: martin di caro, host of "history as it happens." thank you for your time. if you like podcasts, check out our own podcast on c-span now, or wherever you get your own podcast. that's all the time we have for today's washington journal. thanks for everyone who joined us and happy thanksgiving weekend to everybody. we will be back tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2022] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

here is a look at what's ahead. next, a hearing on the status of the electric power grid in puerto rico. speeches from the republican jewish coalition. first, comments from former vice president mike pence. >> tonight, a house subcommittee talks about widespread child abuse that happened in indian boarding schools up to 1969.

survivors recount stories of forced cultural assimilation as well as mental, physical, and sexual abuse endured by native american children. watch tonight on c-span or online anytime on c-span.org. >> sunday night on q&a, a wall street trader turned photojournalist on his book about the plight of those living on the margins of society in america. >> it was empty because they were all gone. she was in the industrial part. her intelligence came right through. we spoke for about an hour. she told me her life. it's like a cliche of everything

wrong that can happen to somebody. eventually, i asked her what i asked everybody which is what is one -- how do you will me to describe you in one sentence? she shot back with something like that's what i am a prostitute, a mother, and a child of god. >> listened q&a as a podcast wherever you get your podcasts. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. funded by these television companies and more including cox. squatting in a diner for internetwork is harder. that's why we are providing lower income students access to affordable internet so homework and just be homework. >>