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host: immigration and the border are once again emerging as critical political issues. this week, republicans poised to assume control of the house next year promised to launch rigorous investigations into the problem while democrats argued the border is secure. both sides have for a long time struggled to come to bipartisan agreement on the issue, but this morning, we want to hear from you. what is your message to washington on how to address immigration and border security? democrats, call us at (202) 748-8000. republicans, your line is (202) 748-8001. independents, call (202) 748-8002.

if you are a resident of a border state, we want you to call us at (202) 748-8003. that is also a line you can use to send us a text message. if you do so, please include your name and where you live. you can also find us on facebook.com/c-span, on twitter, and on instagram. you can go ahead and start calling in now. before we go to the phone lines, let's get a little more information on this topic. earlier this week, house gop leader kevin mccarthy spoke about issues at the border in el paso. he was there on tuesday, and he promised an impeachment investigation into homeland security's secretary if he does

not resign. let's watch. [video clip] >> we have lost operational control of our southern border, empowering drug cartels and human traffickers. they have fired shots at our national guard. they put ak-47s pointing at helicopters. they have burned and hung and raped women and caught them on fire. and again, the secretary thinks the border is secure. he has lost ice and border patrol from enforcing our laws while vilifying them at the same time. you realize what that has done? in the last 10 days, three border patrol agents have committed suicide, a total of 14 this year. a number we have not seen in decades. he ended the remain in mexico

policy and wants to end title 42. his actions have produced the greatest wave of illegal immigration in recorded history. our country may never recover from the secretary's dereliction of duty. this is why today i am calling on the secretary to resign. he cannot and must not remain in that position. the secretary does -- if the secretary does not resign, house republicans will investigate every order, every action, and every failure, will determine whether we can begin impeachment inquiry. if the secretary was in charge of any company, he would have been fired by now for the failures he caused.

the american public deserves more, deserves better, and expects more from their government. enough is enough. host: again, that was house republican leader kevin mccarthy . now let's take a watch at the white house press secretary. she spoke about his visit last week, and she dismissed it as a political stunt. [video clip] >> the question that we have for kevin mccarthy, who is soon to be speaker mccarthy, you know, what is his plan? what is he doing to help the situation that we are seeing? what is his plan? he goes down there and does a political stunt, like many republicans do, that we have seen them do, but he is actually not putting forth a plan, a plan to help us deal with an issue that we all see you are reporting. one of the things he can do is

go to texas senator ted cruz or any members of the republican caucus from texas who voted against the president's request for record funding to support the hard-working men and women at the department of homeland security. and whether they will vote for it when it comes up again. we have put a solution here. we have said, here are the ways we can deal with this. on the president's first day at the white house, he put forth a comprehensive immigration plan because he knew how important it was to move forward with getting this done. but let me just say a couple of things and i will take other questions. here is what the president has done. he has secured record funding levels to dhs to support more than 23,000 agents working day and night to secure the border under the secretary's leadership. he put forward a couple hints of immigration bill on day one. we have partnered with mexico and guatemala to tackle the criminal smuggling networks

praying on immigrants. those efforts have resulted in thousands of arrests because of the work this president has done. he brought 20 leaders together to collaboratively manage the immigration challenge impacting the whole western hemisphere. and we are stopping fentanyl before and makes it to the streets of the united states. we have a plan. we have been putting that forward. mccarthy has no plan. the republican party has no plan. they do nothing except political stance. host: that was the white house press secretary. let's talk a little bit about the numbers, the latest numbers at the southwest border. in october, more than 230,600 migrant encounters were counted. this is data from the u.s. customs and border protection. that is a 1.3% increase compared

to september. of those 230,000 migrant encounters, roughly 19% involved repeat crossings. these are people who were encountered at least once in the 12 months preceding that. and then in all of fiscal year 2022, that is more than 2.7 6 million encounters -- 2.76 million encounters. that is data from the u.s. customs and border protection. our question to you this morning, what is your message to washington on how to address immigration and border security? i'm going to repeat the phone lines one more time. democrats, your number is (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002.

and if you live in a border state, (202) 748-8003. let's go to the phone lines now. our first caller is going to be robert from michigan on the independent line. what is your message to washington on this issue, robert? caller: yes, good morning. there really isn't a real solution if you think about it. we are bordered by water all around us. people come in from canada. people come in from the east coast. east coast has open borders all over the place with the water coming in. you come in from the west coast and northern west coast. this is, to me, putting much a political type thing all the time.

like i said, republicans don't have any solutions. democrats might come up with some kind of solution, but actually i would like to see a bunch of cameras all across the southern border so people in this country with modern technology can see exactly for themselves how bad it is if it is bad and how bad it is. there are people coming across, but some people exaggerate, like to say millions are coming across all the time. i would like to see some camera technology, some drones, or a special app you can see on your computer and watch the border all the time if you want. that would be kinda cool for the people, you know? let the people of the country know so they are not conspiring, you know? host:host: all right. -- host: all right. that is robert from michigan. bonnie is on the democratic line. what is your solution to the

border? caller: during the covid crisis that trump bungled up, 5 million americans died. we need workers. let them replace the ones that died of covid. number two, all of these investigations they are talking about, border patrol people commit suicide. how about the suicide of the cops and washington, d.c.? why don't they investigate that? one of they investigate january 6 -- why don't they investigate january 6? that is the most opponent issue. for those who cross the border, they make money and go back home. we need them to stay here, need the money here so they can shore up social security. that is what they need to do. you will never stop people from

migrating. they can fly into my take a boat income overstay the visa. what is the point? we got water problems. everybody goes from border to border. people go back and forth, drive back and forth. host: that was barney. sorry about that, barney. i hit the button a little too quickly. this is judy. judy is in utah. your call is on the republican line. what is your solution to solving the issue at the border? judy? caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: hi. good morning. i thought this back in 2016 when trump was running and we had a caravan coming over of 2000. at that point, that was horrendous.

and i thought, what are we going to do? my suggestion is if our leaders would get through whatever source they can, get the word back to these people that are coming into our country, don't even bother coming here because you won't get a job, and let the people here, the employer's know -- the employers -- the employers know that there will be severe penalties and even incarceration. if you get that word out, don't bother coming here because you won't get hired, maybe that might help. just a suggestion. host: judy, what would you say to the business owners, particularly in the agriculture industry, who say they cannot survive without immigration? they cannot survive without immigrant workers. what would be your solution for

those companies? caller: bring them in legally. we need them. i absolutely agree, we need them. but bring them in legally and ramp up e-verify. and then these 75,000 irs agents they are planning on hiring, but those people in some sort of capacity to e-verify these employees people are hiring. if they are here legally,. great we need them -- legally, great, need them. host: let's hear now from charles. charles is calling from -- you are going to have to help me. michigan on the independent line. caller: that is correct. host: go ahead, charles. caller: we have a crisis at the border. we have an invasion in our country.

if i were president of the united states, i would call the u.s. military across the entire southern border to stop what is going on, and i would keep them there and use legal ports of entry for normal cross-country traffic flow. i would leave them there until i had a bill on my desk to sign, and i would not sign any other bill until that occurred. thank you. goodbye. host: all right, charles. now calling from massachusetts, i think i am saying that incorrectly, democratic line, joseph. go ahead. caller: worcester, massachusetts. host: i knew it was something i was not doing correctly. joseph, go ahead. caller: i am independent now but i was a democrat.

but anyway, i used to live in the border state of texas way down yonder. right now, texas is not majority white no more. i don't want to make it a race issue but it is 40% hispanic. now mexico has changed a lot. i used to spend a month at the border in the reno, texas -- laredo, texas. it is extremely dangerous. i don't go there anymore. i support president trump. i think he was doing the right thing, putting up a wall. the people being hurt the most by the illegals coming in are african-americans. that we don't cover. there are millions of illegals living in america. 8 million of them are working. they had iced immigration and customer enforcement agency with a process in tennessee.

in 1950, the african-american charter lawsuit at the texas supreme court to let the black workers -- they let the black workers no. they arrested 600. hurricane katrina, iced immigration -- ice immigration close to downtown portland, they arrested undocumented -- downtown new orleans, they arrested undocumented. i worked a job in houston, texas, for four years. i would go to the temp service in downtown houston and on the ticket, they would say, send me mexican only, hispanic only.

who does agricultural work? $20 an hour. we have to do better. drugs are coming in, human trafficking, sex trafficking. i support president trump in office again. that is all i have to say. have a nice day. host: let's go to another caller now. this is tony. tony is calling from the border state of arizona. tony, tell us what you think should be done about this issue as a border state resident. caller: well, i am an indigenous person. what i see going on down in central america is the problem that the people don't recognize in the united states. they are trying to escape the country, whether guatemala or venezuela or these countries

that are killing these people. if the united states does not realize that, they are running to the country for asylum, to escape, to get justice. there is a problem of not knowing what these people face. border patrol rounds them up and sends them back to the place they will be killed. that is why they have all of these people coming back to the border. we need to educate the people of the united states why the problem is created down there. we call them drug lords, smugglers, killers, rapists. all they are trying to do is find a better life. host: all right, appreciate your call, tony. let's hear now from susan. susan is calling from dunedin, florida, on the republican line. go ahead, susan. caller: i am calling from

florida on the republican line. i have the great governor desantis as our governor. and yes, i have three words to say. close the border. host: ok, susan. that was short and sweet. let's go now to brady. brady is on the independent line. brady in bluffton, indiana, what do you think of the issue? caller: i don't like the callers that just called in. i think they were biased. i am married to a spanish woman from mexico city. ok. i am 56 years old and worked all my life. my wife has worked all her life. she walked across this border. i helped her get her citizenship, and she did that. these republicans that are calling in, i don't know what is on their mind. it's wrong. number one, mexico was a part of

the united states. they need to get educated on that. just because of the spanish-american war, which we lost, you know, and i am being honest about that, just burns my you know what. but no. my wife, before i met her, she had bought two homes, helps people, and is a pillar of the community. spanish people are not bad people. it is just that you have to understand what is going on in the united states right now. you have people coming over here illegally, you know, and i don't like that. they should be checked out. at the same time, they are trying to feed their kids. they want a better life. so anybody in america to say that mexico was not a part of the united states, you have to go back to school. you know what i mean? i graduated from school.

my wife has two degrees. she is not a dummy. and for that, i don't blame them for trying to come over. i understand. i have been over there. i understand it. but at the same time, you have people over there. i actually went from a southern baptist to christianity with my wife. i love her pastor. i love what they preach. and they help people. all mexicans are not bad. that is all i got to say. host: all right. let's hear now from south carolina, this is john. john is on the democratic line. what are your thoughts this morning, john? caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: this is just sad, to see this country like this.

some of the problem is that, one, they come across illegal. we understand that. but nobody is addressing what they have done to the economy as a worker. i have been in infrastructure my whole life. i have watched our hourly wage go down to the point -- we were at $50, $70 a square, and i watched it go down to $15 a square. now if we don't see a problem, the problem is -- congress is not getting these people, the high dollar builders, to pay and equal a fair wage all the way across the border. we made this industry. this is our industry we made. we are taking illegal immigrants and doing it for not a quarter of the job we use to. how are we supposed to survive

when we can't compete? that is where we are at. the illegal problem, yes, there are drug smugglers across the border. that is what our military will tell you. they have serious issues. they need to ask our government to come over there and put the can out there that takes care of illegal drug pushers so they don't have to run from their home. if they don't understand that part, how are we supposed to help? we can't help when they don't come to the border and say, look, this is what is going on. we need your government. we need your military. help us take our land back. that is what it is about. take their land back. they need to take their land back and quit taking our land back away from us. we built this industry. if we put the dollar over there instead of the peso or whatever it is over there, equal out the money. if you have the same money there as we do here, if you put the

laws in effect that would take care of the bad people over there that will stop killing those kids and killing them people because they won't push their drugs and stuff, that is going to help out a lot. being racist and being stupid, that is what it is. it is stupid. that will not help america as far as the probably have. building a wall, walls fall. we have seen that already. if you have it in your heart to go across that line, you are going to go across that line because freedom is not something you can put a dollar sign on. but our country has put that on it. it started out with the farming. now he has -- now it has gone all the way into other industries. host: we appreciate your call. let's hear now from peter. peter is in reading, pennsylvania, on the republican line. peter, what is your message to washington on immigration and border security?

caller: i am disgusted with most everything i have heard. i got on the wrong line, but i will be as diplomatic as i can. you know, when you hear some of these people talking about building a wall, close the border, and i ask them, are they cherokee, sioux? no. we all know if they had blonde hair and blue eyes, it would not be a problem. these people walk around here, they close the border, close the border. when they are in the nursing home, an immigrant has to come clean them up because their families will do it. i hope they are treated with more humanity than trump treated

those kids and put them in cages. that is all i got. thank you. host: ok. let's go now to wendy. wendy is calling from rapid city, michigan, on the independent line. what are your thoughts this morning, wendy? caller: i see this as an organization problem. we need to have a civil service job, which is border patrol, not only on our national border, waterways, and all of our states, in which everyone, all of the u.s. businesses have to be chipped, dna, identified. literally chipped. so everyone who is a citizen as well as visitors so we can separate out who is here legally or illegally and be able to be removed if they refuse to give a

homeland address. we can send them by air with a $1000 tag to be reimbursed to their capital of the nearest border town -- border country. those without criminal records will be able to apply for citizenship. and they don't have to forfeit whatever businesses they have at the time. those who have criminal records will not be allowed back in for life. simple. host: all right. let's hear now from teresa in chicago, illinois. teresa is on the democratic line. what would you like to share with us this morning? caller: good morning. thank you for having me. i think the first thing i would do is legalize all the daca people who have literally lived here their entire life.

and secondly, i think the fear mongering in washington covers up all of the issues happening around the world. if you have seen the movie "human slow," you will see that millions of people are homeless and forced to leave their homes due to the war, climate change. mexico is very corrupt. there is a lot of starvation there. there are people in haiti who have dealt with hurricanes and war, or i should say civil war. i think it is time people drop the racism and let the people who need to come here, come here, and do it in a legal way

where they don't have to be afraid to come through. we should accept them. look at poland. they have just accepted millions of people from ukraine without any racism or very little problems. we look at what we are doing. we are putting people in cages. we are separating children. we have very little compassion in this country. host: teresa, i want to ask you, a lot of people would say we don't disagree with you, but what -- should it just be open so that anyone who wants to come in -- it can overwhelm systems. border cities say they are overwhelmed. should there be safeguards for limits to the amount of people who are allowed into the u.s.? caller: i am not sure about what limits we need to impose. but i know we are the wealthiest country in the world and we have room for people.

i think we should do it in a better way because right now we scared people so much that they are afraid to come through legally. they hire coyotes. for example, on the southern border they hire coyotes. they have to give them everything they own in order to pay. a lot of times, the coyotes just leave them in the middle of the desert, where they either die or have to make it on their own with small children and little to eat and little water. i think that if they did not have the fear of dealing with border patrols that would capture them and put them in cages and send them on buses with no shoes, i think that they would follow the law and do it the right way. but i have to know that they have a safe place to go -- but they have to know that they have a safe place to go instead of

more fear and terror at our borders. host: appreciate your call, teresa. let's hear now from paul. paul is coming from the united kingdom on the republican line. what are your ideas, paul? caller: my idea, to people who deserve to be there, like people from war-torn countries, but limit it as well. that is a good idea i think. people deserve to be. inthe country desirable -- people deserve to begin the country, desirable people. host: there are immigrants in the u.k. what do you see are the contrast between what is happening there versus what you see in the united states? caller:, this country, there are

thousands of people illegally that come to the country britain, -- this country, there are thousands of people illegally that come to this country, britain, all over. need something more secure at the ports. the ports should have more security to stop the illegal migrants from coming to the country because we don't want illegal migrants. that is important for security, i reckon. host: thanks for sharing your insight. let's go now to eddie. eddie is calling from -- sorry. we have two eddies. let's see here. hold on. let's go to this eddie. eddie is calling from los angeles, california, on the independent line. go ahead, eddie. caller: good morning.

in order for us to get to the nitty-gritty of this, there are people who spoke spanish and are black. you can tell the system is racist. biden had them bounded up. that was done by america. this is something thomas jefferson did. those people need to do like he did. nobody in america has it worse than black people. until democrats apologize, they have nothing to say. they should sit down and shut up. this is a racist program.

host: all right. before we go to more of your calls, at a recent senate hearing, homeland security's secretary spoke about the record-breaking number of migrant encounters at the border . and a republican senator pressed him on whether or not they constitute a crisis. let's hear some of that exchange. [video clip] >> this has been the worst year of apprehensions ever, the last fiscal year. but the second worst year was last year. these numbers speak for themselves. more than 2 million people apprehended between the point of entry in 2022. this summer, when the chief of the border patrol was questioned by the state of florida, he gave his answers under oath. i would ask for a transcript be

placed into the testimony, mr. chairman. >> without objection. >> secretary, i will ask you the same questions the chief of border patrol was asked see if you agree. please give me a yes or no answer. is the southern border currently in crisis, yes or no? >> ranking member portman, the entire hemisphere is suffering a migration crisis. we are seeing an unprecedented movement of people from country to country. it is not restricted to the southern border. we are seeing an unprecedented movement of people throughout the western hemisphere. and i think the case of venezuela is the most compelling example. with a population between 25 and 28 million people, approximately 8 million of them have left that country. columbia is hosting 2.4 million venezuelans. >> i would ask you for a yes or

no answer. i have been to columbia twice in the last year, very aware of what is going on with displaced people. winter venezuela, nicaragua, cuba -- been to venezuela, nicaragua, cuba. should we be dealing our policies at the border to deal with it? my question to you again, is the southern border currently in crisis, yes or no? >> we are seeing a significant challenge at the southern border and throughout the hemisphere. >> ok. host: again, that was the homeland security secretary with an exchange with ohio senator portman. our question to you this morning, what is your message to washington on immigration and border security? just to remind you, the phone lines. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001.

independents, (202) 748-8002. and if you live in a border state, we want you to call us at (202) 748-8003. we have more calls we are going to get to right now. harvey is in wisconsin on the democratic line. what are your thoughts this morning? caller: good morning. thank you. we have to get back to the basics on this. the gentleman earlier that had a good scenario about trying to pitch things to the countries those people come from because if you have a home, most people don't want to leave home. they leave home because they aren't happy. in america, we cannot allow people to just walk in and overload our system. we already have a housing crisis in america right now. the more people that walk in, where are they going to live?

we have to work on both sides of it. if we can maybe as the gentleman said put the military and take the country back for them, i don't know if that is a solution. but we need to look at what we can do to help people want to stay home. that is what i have to say. thank you for taking my call. host: let's go now to millbury, massachusetts. this is eddie. eddie is calling on the republican line. what thoughts do you have, eddie? caller: good morning. yes, the gentleman just set it. it is housing. i remember decades ago, we had the savings and loans, corporations. they gave money to many politicians. among them was john mccain. we can take in a million people legally. but if you take on two million

illegals, what are you going to do with them? 2006, the subprime had a problem. it went from 5% to 25%. these are people getting mortgages with no money down, and it failed. it cost us tens of billions. with the subprime, it cost us hundreds of billions. we cannot house them. thank you. host: let's go now to a border state caller. this is a caller from new mexico. as someone who lives in a border state, how would you address the issue? caller: yes, i start out with we had it working when we were building the wall. walls work. everybody knows it. my question to you folks on tv is, what are we going to do with

those people when they get here? i live in new mexico. we are a secular state. they have completely filled up our state. they have filled up our schools, our courts. everything is being attacked in new mexico. and not one word about it on tv about what is going on in new mexico. people talk about el paso. el paso is a corner in new mexico. they are flooding our state. not one word. there are 150 different countries coming in here. how will you teach those kids in our school? some of them speak portuguese. some of them speak different dialects of spanish. will you do with those people when they get arrested and go to court and you can talk to them? have any of you people thought about what will happen to our hospitals when people come in? because they are not being tested for covid so we don't have a clue what they got or

what they are even doing when they get here or where they go. my question is, is there any oversight at all on these people, or are you just letting them loose to scatter around? because they did not come from america, where we work hard to get our things. these people have had to lie, cheat, steal, to do whatever it takes to survive in that country. and you don't think they will bring all of that up here with them? host: let's take another caller. duane in north carolina, you are calling on the independent line. what would you like to share with us? caller: i have two comments. i am sitting here watching c-span, and there was a caller on about 15 minutes ago that stated that there was over 5 million people that died while donald trump was president. and i asked alexa, which gives

correct information, and there have only been 1,090,000 people who died under president trump and president biden. so when these people call in and they make these statements on c-span, you know, nobody is correcting them and saying, sir, what you are saying is wrong. there have not been 5 million people under both presidents die here. for you to say over 5 million people died in the united states under president trump, it upsets me when people get on tv and giveback statements and nobody says anything about it -- give bad statements and nobody says anything about it. on the border issue, there is international law. all these people making comments

need to read international law, which says if you are seeking asylum from a country you are afraid for your life in, you have to seek it in the first country you come to when you leave your country. these people coming from all over the world through mexico to get to the united states to pour in undhi administration and that coyote that is running the show down there who is the secretary of homeland security, this is a sham show. an intertibein violated -- and international law is being violated down there because international law says anybody seeking asylum from a country they feel threatened and has to seek it in the first country they come to when they leave their country. i don't know. watching c-span is getting to

become more of a comedy show with people getting on there and lying and talking about stuff they don't know about. it upsets me, and i am sorry. that is my comment. host: before we go to more calls, i want to bring up some of the text messages we have received on this topic. this first one is from john in simple, minnesota. uphold the law and stop accepting what had become the scam of legitimizing all the false claims of asylum. another text from sue in new jersey says, being a border agent is a hard job. it seems they have the needed tools to carry out their job but it is unrealistic to expect this or do you need to no going and it will not be an easy job? joan in soda rights, everyone --

in minnesota writes, we cannot take the whole world and forget we have homeless, sick, hungry, and i we accept illegals and give them free phones, many, some get free medical care and housing. that is not democracy and the poor people in this country end up paying for them. here is a tweet from ron. you cannot reform immigration without both sides working together to solve it and both sides agreeing to reign in big corporations that use illegals for people in. the money from the donors to hire keep immigrants is too good for either side to agree on this. one more before we go back to the phones. this is from scott in houston. require and enforce e-verify. eliminate some visas. send those home who have overstayed their visas. we will go back to some of your

calls now. let's go to raleigh, north carolina. this is thomas on the republican line. what are your thoughts this morning? caller: my thoughts are i think the secretary is living in a different country than i am. he keeps saying it is a challenge. it is a crisis. biden has never been to the border. harris is in charge of the border and has only been one time. title 42 is fixing to expire and we will have 18,000 people cross the border a day. that is unacceptable. where are the democrats? they were crying when people were in cages when trump was president. where is she now? i think it is pathetic, intentional, and i need to build a wall. thank you. host: here is another caller. catherine is in -- catherine in

illinois on the democratic line. go ahead, kathryn. caller: that is correct. thank you. i think i treat others the way i would want to be treated. that is my golden rule. over the summer, i had let in a homeless family. it was something that landed on my lap. this coupled with a two-year-old, they came in and i treated them as if they were my own family. they had their own bath, laundry, internet, you name it. this went on for six weeks. i loved their little girl, but the parents could not handle life.

you say, why am i bringing this up now? bringing in a homeless family is similar to the u.s. bringing in border people. in my experience, if this couple left after six weeks, i have no idea where they went. they did not do anything. they were educated. her mother was black. the father was white. i had no issues with anything. so in the end, they would not apply for the services from the state of illinois that were available to them. and i could not keep them. they were accosting me so much money. -- they were costing me so much money. they ended up leaving.

they would not have if they went out and helped themselves. in border towns, we have to think the same way. if you bring people in that are gung ho, want a job, want to work, bringing families without a penny to their name, we should bring those people in. but if you get people that have no idea how to work, don't want to work, don't have the desire, then i don't know what to do with them, but they're in the end is the problem -- there in the end is the problem. host: got your point there. let's go to another border state resident. this is lee calling from texas. what are your thoughts on this issue? caller: good morning. i think a lot of people don't know what is going on here because the news media don't

report it, the major ones. there are two that do. i am not going to mention their names but they come down here, report it, and show it. i want to use an example of how dangerous the situation is. we had a mass murderer about six weeks ago -- mass murder about six weeks ago in a town i was close to. it was an undocumented person living with a woman and kids. one morning, he shot and killed both of them, went outside, killed two next door neighbors, another woman and her daughter. so that just goes to show. i know there are good people and bad people. we don't know who is coming in and what they are capable of doing. a lady said earlier about it being a racial problem. this is not a racial problem.

i am white, but i have white and hispanic mixed family. anyway, it is a problem. people just need to go to the right source to find out and see what it is. it just saddens me that we have to go through all this. we do need our borders secured. thank you. host: let's hear now from michelle. michelle is calling on the independent line from connecticut. go ahead, michelle. caller: good morning. how are you? host: good morning. caller: i just want to say a couple things about the border. i hear a lot of people calling in and saying things about it has to do with race. it has everything to do with laws on the books.

when joe biden came in office, there was not a problem. he undid everything and let it become a problem. i remember when trump was in office, he put forward something for immigration. it was knocked down. it was trying to fix it all. the democrats did not want to give him any kind of win, i guess you could call it. it gets kicked down the road every time a president comes in. no one wants to take care of it. i really think, i don't know if this falls on deaf ears, all the people calling in today, but the elected officials on either side don't want to listen to what any of the people say in this country. they don't care. we want security. we welcome people from all over the world. we have a very diverse country, and i love that about america. but we have laws. we have a lot of hopeless

problems here as it is. i don't know where we will put these people. 2.5 million this year. the year before was another 2.5 million, may be more. host:host: we will go to another caller now -- host: we will go to another caller now. this is ed on the republican line. caller: good morning. my thoughts are, and i thought this 2.5 years ago, something belonged to some immigrant and my point is the individual had three different one i.d. from illinois, one from pennsylvania. one from new york state. then there were all get me free

cards. food stamp cards from three different states. we don't know who these people are. you, me and every other american, we are titled with a social security number. they can from state to state and get free stuff and they are not stupid. they know that not all of them but a lot of them know where to go to get the free stuff. new york state, this place is a border state like you can't believe. my town is filled with illegals. i'm a season your citizen. every year our school tax goes up and last year it went up almost $to 30 million and this year it will go above the $200 million they get. this country we are in deep trouble. i'm a senior citizen. i ran out of oil thanksgiving morning, 22 degrees here. i had to go five gallon pales because i can't afford to get

the truck to come to give me the minimum of 150 gallons. we are more worried about what is coming in at the border and it is hurting our country and senior citizens and veterans that are hurting in this country are not being taken care of you can't get food stamps unless you are an illegal. you go to the social services and you would see nothing but foreigners getting free stuff. phones, food stamps and handed cash on the spot. i have seen what was going on. it is ridiculous. we better shape up or we are all in trouble. host: let's go to hollywood, florida. this is ishmail calling on the democratic line. go ahead.

caller: good morning, ma'am. i was listening to the person who was talking about question about is it a crisis or not. to be honest, the problem is we look at who we send to the congress. because some of them use the politics and that is the problem that we have here right now. look, it is not a problem. when i look how much money we spend to put one senator in power it is ridiculous. $45 million from florida to haiti. that is why the haitian people

want to come to the united states. every time this question come up everybody have a different opinion like it like democrat think one way, republicans want it another way. they want to stay in power, that is why they don't want to spend the money to secure the border. and if you stop looking at the people around the country, look at the country that have more crime and how it starts. you need to look at the country next to them. haiti don't want to come here. they want to stay home and mind their business. but you know people can't survive in their own company they go where they can breathe

an -- and they have food. do something about it. thank you. host: let's go to a border state, this is joe from midland, texas. what do you think needs to be done? caller: the first thing that needs to be done is while we can have executive powers and stop what is happening and enforce the laws on the books. in mid happened we have camps and the government sent 4,000 teenagers, 13 to 18 years old,

and they lived in mid land. next thing we know we don't know where those kids went. who is going to take care of 13, 14, 15, 16-year-olds in this country? where did they go? no transparency. we have such huge problems. i listen to the people on this program and they are all right and i understand immigration. i had a business, we worked hispanics. some illegal, some legal. there is a visa program. america has to change and go back to our laws and protect the borders. it is going to be a bigger crisis than anybody has ever seen. who is going to feed these people? host: we are going to stop and

take a break then we will be joined by syndicated columnist cal thomas talking about the mid election results, donald trump's announcement and later john morris nancy pelosi's former chief discusses his book of her work 2005 through 2010. pass house,

join in the conversation with your phone calls, facebook comments, texts and tweets. in depth with peter baker and susan glasser sunday december 4 at noon on book tv on c-span 2. tonight we talk about dig any about the plight of those on the margins of society in america. >> it was a sunday morning or saturday and it was empty because all of the people were gone and immediately her intelligence just kind of came through and we spoke for about an hour, half hour or so. and she told me her life was

just like a cliche of everything wrong that could happen to somebody. and eventually i asked her what i ask everybody i photograph which is what is one sentence, how do you want me to describe you and she shot back something like that is what i am, a prostitute, a mother of six and a child of god. >> tonight on q&a. you can listen to it as a podcast wherever you get your podcasts. >> cyber monday the sale you ve been waiting for starts sunday at c-spanshop.org. shop monday and tuesday and save up to 35% on our latest collection of shap -- c-span products.

every purchase helps to support or ope scan the code to the right to shop our deals at c-spanshop.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: syndicated columnist cal thomas is here. thank you for joining us. guest: good morning. i hope you're enjoying your thanksgivingovers. host: what was the message you think voters sent to the republican party during this election cycle? guest: i don't think i could do better than two pieces in the walt. one is karl rove who said the

reason republicans came up short just when americans were ready to vote for them the g.o.p. nominated too many radicals and weirdos. imagine weirdos being used in the "wall street journal." then another by a professor myron lewis of the history department at b.y.u., idaho. this is really good. to avoid long-term underperformance of the kind we saw election day republicans needs to jettison the conservative narrative and move beyond that all of their policies stand against progressive change. that has been a good label many years for republicans but now too many especially independents and others seems to be a view of looking back and holding on rather than moving forward. the left learned this a number years ago after the presidential defeats of dukakis and john

kerry who were labeled liberals and card carrying members of the aclu. they adopted progressive which sounds progressive, moving forward, new ideas. so i think conservatives need to change the label it something else and stop being on the defensive because it is not their policy that is have created a $31 trillion national debt, open border that you were discussing with callers in the last hour and so many other problems that confront the country. host: you just wrote an editorial the title of it is "toxic trump must leave the stage". here is a little excerpt from thcolumn. you say whatwrong with the man who demeans oths to elevhimself. his pture should be next to the diry definition of

nast, extremely selfred rson who has an exaggerated sense of sever rtance. he is like ahild whose toys were taken from him for bad behavior. when the "new york post" and "wall street journal" run editorials calling on him to step aside and allow a new generation of republicans to occupy the stageandwriting is on the wall. ey are not alone. living in the pass is for losers and trump is the greatest loser. i want to ask you, do you believe that trump's hold on the republican party is slipping? if you do, what gives you that impression? guest: i do. by the way, that was really good. could have said that myself. wait, i did say that myself. i think when you make it all about yourself and not the people that you want to be

elected to serve it becomes something that is annoying and even offputting to a lot of americans. i don't like to call other people names. i have a lot of democrat and liberal friends, i admire them and their talents particularly in the immediately which i have been in 50 years as a reporter and columnist. i don't think you change anybody by calling them names. i want to persuade people. i want to have good relationships with my fellow americans. we are looking at each other as enemies. we have enough enemies without being enemies of each other than. we have china, russia, terrorists. why are we demeaning each other when we ought to be united? i think in large part this is driven by fund-raisers and social media. but i do think donald trump's time has passed. he did a great job when he was

president in my view but we need to pa the torch to a new generation as john kennedy said in his 1981 address. we don't need 80 and 70-year-olds running the country. we need 40 and 50-year-olds with new ideas. there's a lot of republican strength and i just think donald trump is not the man for the next election. host: we want to take calls for conservative columnist cal thomas. so you can start calling in now. 202-748-8000 for deposition. republicans for 202-748-8001. and independents are 202-748-8002. before we go to calls i want to ask you another question, cal.

republican leader kevin mccarthy is in line to become speaker but some conservatives particularly members of the house freedom caucus who say they are not ready to get behind him. do you think republicans should back kevin mccarthy or somebody else would be better in that role? guest: what is going on now is similar to israel as benjamin netanyahu tries to put together a tkpwofrplt. there will be promises required. i want to sit on this committee, i don't want to sit next to so and so. i want this broke for my district. i'm interested in there bilk passed so there's a lot of stuff behind the scenes. i think eventually republicans will need to come together or otherwise they risk maybe nancy pelosi coming back as speaker.

so i think something will be worked out but it is behind the scenes no, at the moment, i think. host: if you were in kevin mccarthy's ear what would you tell him to deal with that situation? guest: i don't think the first thing would be investigations but that must happen because it is a responsibility of members of congress to hold government officials at the highest level. the hunter biden story has been covered up for years. thank is legitimate. the refusal to secure the border which secretary may has said it secure. republicans would get a lot of legislation through with a democratic majority in the house and democratic in the white house but they can establish a standard for 2024 and go to

voters and say this is what we have tried to do and this is what we will do. something like newt gingrich's contract with america and this is what we will do if you elect us. i think that is a good strategy to pursue. host: let's go to some calls now. we will go first to kansas city, kansas. gordon the republican line. what is your question or comment? caller: i would like to know why cal thomas is a traitor. guest: is excited? is that what you said? host: can you give us some context. caller: you keep on, cal thomas, keep throwing us understood the bus. we will remember you. thank you and have a good day. guest: i appreciate it. i have been around washington. was born in washington and grew up there and graduated from university there and i have seen politicians come and go. it is a flawed system sometimes

but as churchill said it is better than any other and most of the people who serve in congress have good intention. many of them take pay cuts from businesses where they could have made more money and want to serve the american people. the problem is we just focus on the radicals whether a.o.c. on left or some of the freedom caucus on the right and incoming people who are really going to stir the pot instead of reasonable people and in the middle who want to get along and serve their districts and states and the country. i think we saw more of them on television, the late bob beckel and i wrote an article called common grounds. he dame from a democratic perspective and i more republican but we admired each other and respected each other. when you do that you can make

progress. but as long as you view your political opponent as an enemy nothing will change. host: the caller kind of brought up how do you deal with the fact that there are some republicans that those who don't support trump now they consider you a traitor to the party, that trump wing is so loyal to him, you know, do you think that the party can move forward nothing that there are a lot of republicans who are loyal to trump and are willing to criticize other conservatives that are not similarly loyal? guest: i think too many of us live in echo chambers. we talk to only people of like mind. we don't listen to others. one of the problems in the last election is that people were not -- nominated who didn't fit their district or state. you have to look at the

individual districts and states and say is this a moderate, liberal or conservative area. if you put somebody in a moderate area politics is about practicing ma actively and what you can do. if you want to have your way and put a far right person it to a moderate or liberal district you are going to lose. the outcome of politics is about winning so that you might advance your agenda. it doesn't do you any good if you say i will put this far right winger in office or this far left winger as a primary candidate when your district or state doesn't believe in those things. it is about practicing ma actively and -- practicing ma actively and moving the country

host: we have jim from new york. caller: i used to love listening to cal thomas but it is disappointing that he would stab trump in the back. was the greatest president we have had. he has been an incredible president. is he narcissistic, yes but i'm not hiring a pastor. i want somebody to disrupt the elitist cabal and which i think you are part of. the fact that you are laughing, you are part of the men in washington -- the men in washington you are -- i'm

surprised that you would go that route. guest: being evangelical person is not the way of the world. they say do not put your trust in people. you have been in washington too long and you are part of the establishment and elitist. i didn't stab trump in the back. he is stabbing himself in the front. look at the dinner he will with kanye west and this white supreme eurpls. that feeds the narrative that he is a racist and hater. what he is doing he is doing to himself. you say he is the greatest president? better than abraham him or ronald lincoln? this is cult like may havior. you see no flaws, you say you are not hiring a pastor.

it is not about that. politics is looking forward. trump can't win in 2024. the democrats desperately hope that he will run and be knowledge fluctuated because they believe they can beat him with the independents especially. independents are the largest and fastest growing group of voters in american. you have to win a certain number of them to win the presidency. that is what the pragmatism of politics is about. it is not this cult like trump is the greatest. yes he built the wall and moved the embassy to jerusalem and accords and cut taxes but that was then the. now we are talking about moving forward and look at all of these legal problems he is face. whether you think they are legitimate or not -- and i think some of them are not and they are out to get him -- but he is not as strong now as he was in

2016. so we have to look forward to a new generation and group of candidates. if that is elitist i'm sorry. host: speaking of the new generation we will hear from some of them and i want to get some of your feedback. florida governor ron desantis is seeing his political stock rise after a decisive re-election victory. so, let's hear a little bit from him in his recent appearance. >> what we have shown is people respond to strong leadership. if you look at our election results we've the biggest election margin, 1.5 million votes, than any tkpwhofr in the history of the state of florida. if you look at who we were winning, we were winning across the board. you don't get that type of victory only getting

republicans. we had a great republican turnout but we decisively won the middle. we won more democrats than any governor has done for a long time. we are winning people regardless of these boxes that the media always wants to put people in. we treated people as individuals and fellow americans and they responded. so, you can be strong, you can get things done, and you can attract a huge, huge coalition. i think most people realize a lot has gone wrong in the country particularly the last two years. florida really is showing a way out of this morass and mess. but you have to be willing to do it and you have to be successful in implementing it. and in times like these there is no substitute for victory. we in florida are the life. freedom will reign supreme with florida leading the way. i want to thank each of you for

your support. we have accomplished more over a four-year period than anybody thought possible but i can tell you this. we have a lot more to do and i have only begun to fight. thank you all. god bless you. thanks so much. host: that was florida governor speaking at the republican jewish coalition. cal, what do you think are his strengths and weaknesses. do you think he can beat trump? guest: well, i'm not a prophet and i have notice adds -- and i notice adds lot of pollsters are wrong but the key to anything is success and when he talks about his success it is hard to deny. he is done a tremendous job. i was on the road yesterday and counting the number of cars with license plates from california, from new jersey, new york, from other high tax and high regulated states. they are coming to florida.

remember the old neil diamond they are coming to america? they are coming to florida now. no state tax, a terrific environment. no snow during the winter and it is a wonderful place to live. i think that when you build on success you have an excellent record here in florida. ron desantis does. what is his future? it is hard to say. can he translate what has happened in florida to the nation? that is always of of -- always the question but he barely won four years ago over a weak candidate and this time he won re-election by almost 20 points. that gets the attention of the party and a lot of other americans. there are a lot of younger and strong republicans out there men and women. nicky haley, tim scott of south carolina. a number of others. i think the republican bench is very strong but clearly ron

desantis leads the way. there was a new york piece talking about negatives he might have a few weeks that dealt with his personality. it said he can be grating and off putting. but there can be overcome. i think people are looking for candidates and leaders with accomplishments, records of accomplishments and real convictions. one of my lines is i'm from washington, d.c. where the only politicians with convictions is in prison. caller: we will go back to the phone lines. len in norfolk, virginia, what is your question or comment caller: i have two questions. do you think if donald trump doesn't win the g.o.p. nomination he will support whoever the candidate is, or do you think he will run as a third

party candidate? guest: that is a great question and once again it requires me to be a prophet, which i'm not. i think that -- i hope he doesn't run as a third party candidate. third party candidates in america do not do well. they usually split the republican vote although ralph nader split the democrat vote on the democrat side. this is a two-part nation and i think that whether you are republican or democrat or independent you have to vote for somebody. and third parties don't do well. given trump's ego and as he pointed out his narcissism i can't imagine he would willingly leave the stage or not be a major presence in the future election. he has about a 35% base and that is huge. so, if he can translate that into a primary victory which is

possible i don't think that he can transfer it to a national victory. but i could be wrong. i have been before, believe it or not. host: on the republican line is leon from addison, michigan. caller: i'm just wondering why, you know, you see all of this red tape up there in washington. we don't balance budgets any more. we don't -- like pelosi, she tore up donald trump's speech right in front of millions of people. she didn't get ousted. i just see so much corruption taking place in this country. everybody is bought and paid in washington.

even with immigration, winter is coming, we have all of these people. where are they going? we already have people living in the streets. it is ludicrous. guest: you make some great points. tia asked me a moment ago what i thought kevin mccarthy would do if he became speaker of the house. i would add to what i said. i have long advocated an outside auditor to come in with to skin in the game and take a look at every federal program from top to bottom to see if it is performing the way the legislative authority authorized it and if not get rid of it. we do that in business. if what you are selling is not bought by customers you change things to stay in business but only in governor does it grow.

you mentioned balanced budget. the last balanced budget or even surplus was under bill clinton. $31 trillion the interest on the debt is greater than the g.d.p. of many nations. nobody nation has survived with that debt. what makes us think we're different from those other anythings. the problem is politicians don't want to say no to anybody and they create so many unnecessary programs to get their votes. that is what the giving up of student loans is about. we have to go back to personal responsibility and accountability and government as the last resort, not a first resource to balance the budget.

host: this is vick on the independent line. caller: how many years of intern slip does one -- internship does one have to have to run for office or be part of it? and the only other comment i have is trump said something during his office time that if he didn't get re-elected he was going to tear the republican party apart and i think he is doing it. guest: the first part there's no constitutional requirement for any kind of experience in any field to run for office including no religious test. that is the language right out of the constitution. so whether herschel walker in georgia or warnock the current incumbent senator with a background as a preacher you have a.o.c. before she was elected to the house of reference was a bartender.

so there's no real political experience required. anybody -- the old line that anybody can grow up to be president has been around for a long time. but i think ought to have a certain knowledge of issues, especially when it comes to the economy and immigration and foreign policy. you ought to be at least pretty well read on this if you are going to seek an office in which laws are passed and policies are passed. but there's no requirement of experience to hold office. host: let's talk about another one of those perspective competitors, challengers, to president trump in the republican primary. last sunday on nbc "meet the press" former vice president mike pence was asked if he believed president trump is fit to serve in office. here is that exchange.

>> another former defense jim mattes says trump has no morrall compass and nor temperament and trump is a clear and present danger to american democracy. is he fit to serve as president of the united states for another four years? >> i really do believe that is a decision for the american people. president trump -- >> don't you think your opinion matters to the american people? the fact that you may run, are you sending that message without saying? >> well, i will keep you posted on whether i will run or not. but i do think we will have better choices and what i won't do is i won't join throws that want to dismiss the four years of our administration and all the that we accomplished for the american people. but as i write it owe so help me

god" the president's leadership was central to our success in everything that was accomplished whether rebuilding the military or decisions he made to allow the armed forces to crush the isis and take out a man responsible for the death of hundreds of american service members during the war in iraq. and it was the president's vision to cut taxes and roll back regulation and his direct engagement with members of congress that saw us pass the tax cuss and reforms that saw seven million jobs created. unemployment at a 50-year low. it is that energy in securing the border and three supreme court justices all a great source of pride to me. in my book i try to make sure and give the president his due. i was proud to be his vice president. host: cal, my question to you

is, how does the former vice president walk the line between speaking out against president trump's roll on january 6 and other shorcomings but still aligning him with their policies in their four years where he was vice president? guest: the policies worked, obviously. the problem for mr. trump every time there was a success not only the ones that mike pence just mentioned, he would step on he successes by saying something outrageous or calling somebody a name and that became the head line rather than the success. this is one of the problems that donald trump has with his personality. his policies were right on. his policies worked. but his personality overcame those policies in the public mind. we have a leftover puritan

d.n.a. in our bodies, and the puritans didn't like the way people behave denouncing others. you remember during the 2016 race crying chuck referring to senator schumer and made fun of jeb bush and weak ted cruz, senator from texas. people don't like that. tell me how you are going to make the country better. when we come you the power, do it without demeaning other people. ronald reagan did there beautifully. he used sever deprecating -- self-deprecating humor in a way that was appealing. i read all of mike pence's book and he pretty much holds the former president accountable for what happened january 6 and his rhetoric. when you're vice president you have to walk the line. the first requirement is you be

loyal. mike is right about the policies. the policies were terrific. but as he says in the book and that clip we have other choices in 2024. i think he is right about that. >> let's hear from brent now in quincy, michigan, on the democratic line. what is your question or comment? caller: hello, mr. thomas. i'm glad to hear you have not bought into the mega fan national simple. it is great to see them don the victimization. trump can't commit crime and they have one ethic and end justifies the means and the end is power. to those republicans pwaoetsding your chest over hunter biden cashing in on his father as influence i'm not a big fan of what about-isms and two wrongs

make a right but what about 2017 the kushner family was selling investment visas in a beijing ballroom for $500,000. what about the same year bloomberg reported jared kushner made a deal with a chinese firm word $6 billion. what about march of 2018 when the communist chinese awarded ivanka seven new trademarks for president trump's help helping a company from going out of bills after it was sanctioned selling parts to north korea and what about two billion jared received from the crown prince for the investment fund despite objections about the merits of jared's fund? host: we have your point.

let's let cal respond. guest: i'm glad you're not engaging in what about-ism. there are a lot of dirty fingers in washington. people have hands in the pie and money from foreign sources for campaigns. a lot of those things you mentioned occurred when democrats controlled the house and senate. if they were concerned about that they would have investigated. my view is they might have revealed some democrats getting some of that dirty money and engaged in dirty deals themselves so that is why they don't do it. that is one of the problems with what trump used to call the swamp. there are a lot of people with dirty lands and with their fingers in the pies and they don't want to investigate one another. you mentioned mike pence as being spineless. i have to tell you, i have known him over 40 years. i find him a man of great integrity. he was doing what the constitution requires when counting the electoral volts. you read what the constitution says, it limits the vice

president's authority. he is supposed to count what has been certified by the individual states and declare the winner. he consulted several lawyers before doing that. including lawyers like eastman who was on trump's side, and came up with his crazy theory that pence could do something the constitution doesn't allow. i don't consider that spineless. i consider that loyal to the constitution and country. he is a good man. whether he can run for president and be successful, we will know in two years. host: up next is brian in salt lake city, utah, on the republican line. your question or comment, brian. caller: yeah, i want to start off with the truth has no agenda. the truth is the truth. my daddy taught me a long time ago people will try to teach you

stuff. you need to throw out the bad and take in the good. why everybody hates trump so much debby washman schultz, maxine waters, insider trading with pelosi and 10 omar marries her brother to get a discount on college and gets away. here is why everybody hates trump. y2k. remember that, 1999. our computers are going to go out because they are not going to switch to 2000. trump gets in 2007 and says what is this the y2k. why are we still paying for that?

because the money goes to the c.i.a. f.b.i., state department and justice department. they are corrupt. they helped trump not get re-elected. it is sad that they are all above the law and we have to pay attention to the law. guest: that is a theory i had not heard before. of all the conspiracy theories that is a new one. i think that i need to stay off the internet. you mentioned truth. one of the problems in our age is the truth has become personal and subjective, not objective. so you have your truth, i have my truth and if it makes you. good, it makes me. good even though they may be opposite that is ok. we have abandoned a standard for truth whether economics or social issues or whatever and it is personal. the out of many one has one many. we are into tribalism, we are haoeufr fluctuated americans --

hyphenated americans and thank is one training is undermining our power as a nation and individual power as people. if truth does not exist, then nothing really matters. caller: you talk about desantis in florida but as an independent i cannot see myself voting for somebody like him he is a little conservative but being a resident of maryland larry logan just served his time and knowing he has a pretty good track record is the republican party considering him as a strong candidate for the 2024 presidential election? guest: well, the media are floating a lot of names and larry hogan has done a spectacular job as governor of maryland but -- this would

aphraoeur to ron de-- apply to ron desantis. but because you do well in one state doesn't mean you can get voters in other states. i wish we had a little more rest period between one election and the next. it is like 24-7 and 365. larry hogan was an aberration in maryland. i used to live there. >> basically a democrat state but he did a tremendous job, he overcame a cancer threat with great integrity and i think he is really a good man. who was his father who served in the house of reserves and was on the impeachment committee during the nixon years. but maryland is a democratic state and they have a new democratic governor. we will see how that works. but if you think ron desantis is too conservative come to florida or move here and enjoy your immediate pay raise when you

don't have to pay state taxes. host: we will hear from ron on the democratic line in new york. your question or comment, ron. caller: good morning, mr. thomas. you previously said third party candidates. i don't like the republican or the democratic candidate, why should i be forced to vote for one of those individuals even though i know the third party candidates probably won't win? thank you. guest: well, i don't know that anybody is forced to vote. nobody came to my door and hauled me to the polls and said you must vote. that is one of the nice things about living in america. you can vote for whomever you wish or you can stay home and not vote at all. you have a choice. that is one of the many things that makes this country unique. so you have to make up your own mind. i know we have had had the view of the lesser of two evils but

if you don't vote that gives the power to othersor decide on who the leadership is and what your taxes will be and regulations on your business and personal freedoms. i'm not always 100% happy with everybody i vote for but i look at their record and promises as opposed to their opponent and i decide i think this one will be in my best interests and interests of other people in this country and that's the person i will vote for. you don't get perfection in politics. you have to employ pragmatism. host: on the line from wilmington, florida is ed caughting as a republican. caller: good morning, mr. thomas. thank you for taking my call. i heard you in the beginning and i guess your original message was that the republicans needs to change their byline to win elections. certainly you talk as a conservative, but i think that

you are engaging in double talk because it seems that you want to move back toward the middle whereas the republican message now is conservatism and talks from a perspective active of constitutionalism and originalism. then you talk about pragmatism and yet what trump did was very pragmatic. it worked. he had a very successful administration and promises were made and promises were kept. that worked. what you seem to be upset about is the meme tweet and certainly imtoo by those offputting messages but it worked. you cannot have an ideal candidate and it will never happen and what we need now is a president to lead this country that makes the administration work and does return america to

its successful place on the stage where it belongs. so -- guest: you have to win the architect. you cannot just go out and say vote for me i'm a conservative without defining that. we have a new generation. you sound like somebody who may be 50 years old or older. i'm certainly in that category. the values or things with r r which we were brought up we have to reestablish with a new generation of young people many who do not necessarily share them. we have gone from a period with inspiration followed by motivation and% per ration to an era of envy, greed and entitlement. people. entitled to others' money. you don't move a country forward with that kind of attitude. yes, i'm a conservative. i am pro live low taxes, slower government, less spending, personal responsibility. i don't know how much more

conservative you can be but my comment is not everybody responds to that message specially when conserveism is redefined as extreme right wing and the rest. i'm just talking about changing the packaging. you go to the super market i was there the other die and saw a package of a product that was different than i remember 20 years ago. they changed the label. they went through a marketing process saying this is not doing as well as the new label. same 3r0d, different label. that is what i'm talking about to win the younger generation, independents to their side. host: we have another caller from welkton, florida. keris on the independent line. caller: good morning. i'm an immigrant. i came from jamaica and been in the states 10 years. in 2016 and my wife and i bought

a house in florida. we are educated. and i guess you could say we are upper middle class based on our salary but i hear people speak about ron desand and being the great savior. in florida you have a lot of hard working people who are homeless and have two jobs and can't afford housing. the republicans have controlled the house, senate, governorship for over 20 years and everyone is retiring and coming to florida. what is done to proper accommodation. you know who retire here. people from other states from new york where they get a pension or earning a higher salary. they come to florida and force up the price of everything,

property, housing, rental. people can hardly afford resident. an example is people of my people we hired people in the summer and within two weeks they resigned because their rent went up. i say ron desantis is a very smart guy and i think that he is obsessed with power and the things he does seems like he is aist -- a fascifascist. i need somebody to stand up for the american people. host: let's give cal a quick time to respond. >> first of all, ron desantis is not my savior, jesus is but that's another issue. you have homeless people in san francisco, los angeles and many other states. many from drug issues, mental issues. we need to do more to help. but this is not about who is

governor. this has gone on through several administrations. you say you want somebody to represent all the people that. sounds noble but nobody really believes that. when a democrat is in ophthalmologist they talk about -- is in office they talk about promoting their policiless. many of which i don't agree with. so if somebody is going to be in offerings that i don't agree with how is he or she or they representing all of the people? that may be an ideal. there are homeless people in florida but it is relate today drugs and mental issues and other things. caller: we have been talking this morning with syndicated columnist cal thomas he is at cal thomas.com. thank you for joining us. guest: you did a great job. good to be with you. host: thank you.

at 9:15 this morning john lawrence, nancy pelosi's former chief of staff will discuss his new book the arc of power. first, it is open forum and your time to call with any political or public policy on your mind. started calling now. democrats on 202-748-8000. republicans on 202-748-8001. and independents on 202-748-8002. we will be right back. >> are you a nonfix book lover? this holiday listen to one of the many podcasts c-span has. you can listen to interviews with people and authors writing books on history and subjects that married. learn something on book notes plus through conversations with philanthropy fiction authorities. then we have nonfiction

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c-span 2 and find a full schedule on the guide or watch line any time at book tvrg. >> congress gets back to work in the wake of the midterm election. watch as the incoming 118th congress hrebgtsz leaders, makes key committee assignments, greets new members and sets an agenda for january 2023. the outgoing 117th congress uses its final weeks tackle un finished business such as defense spending, judicial nominations and funding for the government. follow it live on the c-span network and c-span now our free mobile video app or any time on demand at c-span.org. >> "washington journal" continues.

host: it is time for open forum. you can call and share whatever public policy or political thoughts are on your mind. democrats the number is 202-748-8000. republicans is 202-748-8001. and independents, 202-748-8002. we will go first to homer in sleeve portd, louisiana on the democratic line. what are your thoughts this morning, homer? caller: i think we need to change out washington as a whole. they have been there too long and they don't care about us out

>> donald trump was a great president and he will be a great president if he is reelected. people do not like his style. we have to listen to kyle thomas talk about acuity. we have to get past his style. and focus on his policies which i think will be better for the country. k.

host: i was abraham. let us go to douglas. go ahead, douglas. good morning. on june 19, i said the total extent of america's borders, excluding the great lakes, exceeded 19,937 miles. i arrived at that number by looking at a page on a website of the federation of american scientists. fas.org/cis/mis/cr -- and adding the total to table one and total took table two and total to table three. the figures i stated can be verified by looking at the census bureau and subtracting

the u.s. population from 1950 from the u.s. population in 2020. and then dividing the difference by 70. will someone that our numbers, please? host: alrighty. let's hear from ed in bowie, maryland. you are on the democratic line, what would you like to share with us? caller: i was hoping to get in through to cal thomas but i will mention what i wanted to say to him to the viewers. in 2018, 1.4 million felons -- as long as they did not commit sexual offenses or murders. in order to counter that, 2019, the state of florida, the legislature, the senate had to pay fees and fines before they

could have their rights to vote fully restored. lebron james and mike bloomberg provided $16 million to pay some of these fines which exceeded up to $50,000 per person. whereas in the other situation, in the villages, where everybody voted for trump, three people who voted three times or more for trump in 2020 were caught and they were given community service. they were not convicted of anything, other than the fact that they have to provide community service for a short period of time. i said all about that to say this. if desantis had been able to -- had he not taken those actions and have people in floor and have people in thought a not taken those actions, that 1.4 million people would have voted. a majority of them did. but when they saw those people paraded on tv in handcuffs, and they were designing their ability to vote again, they were

fear mongers into not coming out and voting. that is why he had a 20 point swing and that is why he was such a great guy. what we have to do is follow what lebron james and mike bloomberg did and support these people who had not paid their fines, find who they are and make it so they can vote again. host: we got your point. let's take another call. this is joe in lancaster, california. calling as a republican, good morning. caller: the caller -- the problem i have is trump will never win again is because they have -- never win again because they have trashed him so much. now they want to investigate joe biden, they have a problem with that.

i don't have a problem with desantis coming in. i would like to see desantis run. the problem i have is -- we will all be in trouble then. host: that is joe. our next caller is joey. joey in myrtle beach, south carolina. independent line. good morning morning, joey. caller: the reason i'm calling, i've been following the middle east issue from over 70 years from the time of jimmy carter, when his main issue was human rights and he issued a new law that characterizes every country, based on their human rights policies. and we give our largest -- to israel. i wish the news would give us the truth. israel has -- first of all, it

is not democracy. it says it is but it is not. they have over 50 laws that discriminate against christians and muslims who are not jewish. they don't have the same rights of ownership. read the 50 laws that discriminate. recently, amnesty international, all these human rights organizations, and a human rights organization have come out and declared israel is an apartheid state. and yet we give our largest foreign aid to israel. it is not democracy, it does not treat the people they are equally. secondly, -- the people there equally. secondly, the plan was to create state only for jews and ethnically cleanse those who are

not jews and allall of these lad to do that. even benjamin netanyahu and the previous prime minister have said, this is a state for jews, it is not a democracy for everyone. and yet, we are giving our largest foreign aid to an apartheid state. even nelson mandela and archbishop tutu have said they treat palestinians worse than the south africans. they said we were not bombed from the air. americans have to be told the truth. if they knew our largest foreign aid was going to an apartheid state, they demolished the palestinian homes, they put families on the street, they shoot and kill young teenagers

who are protesting the demolished men of their homes. the whole goal is to eliminate those who are non-jews. just go to amnesty international and read their whole report. host: we have got your point. thank you for your call. let's go to chattanooga, tennessee where wanda is on the democratic line. go ahead. caller: good morning. mr. thomas was saying we need to go back and reevaluate what is going on in america. i was noticing he kept talking about whether or not the pilgrims were working. i got alarmed then because money is going to help a program work and all the money is going toward the neighborhoods already

working, that leaves out the neighborhoods and communities that are not working. that sounds a little familiar when it comes to the redline issues that are now coming up in desantis' plans. to me, if we want to help all of the people, we cannot forget what happened years ago. we have to include the information that happened years ago in these conversations. and that idea scares me because the same way joy was speaking on all the stuff in other countries, seems like she is outlining what is about to happen in america. thank you. host: that was the caller from chattanooga, tennessee.

jack is calling from maryland on the republican line. you are on. caller: hi. i hear everybody talking about this problem and that problem. our biggest problem is we have a compromised president. china got him into office by releasing the virus the year of the election, screwed everything up. all he talks about is trump, trump, trump. his son from the laptop, that should be on the news. that dirty drug addict -- once an addict, always an addict. the apple never falls far from the shuri. -- the tree. host: dan is in buffalo, iowa on the independent line. go ahead. caller: hello. host: hello.

i don't really take sides but i will say the democrats are lying more than the republicans. everybody can see what is going on and to hear what they say about it, it is pretty obvious. i don't know how anybody is voting for any of these people. if i did that at my job, i would be instantly fired. especially if you had that important of a job. is anybody smart ever going to be in office? or are they going to let anybody go? it seems there are no geniuses in the senate or congress.

yep, i will end there. host: let's hear from bobby. bobby is calling from tuscaloosa, alabama on the democratic line. go ahead. caller: hello. i would like to call in pretending to be student loan forgiveness. i think it is a mistake and i hope the supreme court does not allow that to take place. it is not fair to the other working people that have paid their student loan back. i am a senior citizen and i paid my daughter's student loan back. what i think they should do is make education affordable, maybe not forgive the entire loan, maybe forgive the interest and make them pay back the principal. but i think it should be made

available to all people. i think it is wrong to forgive student loans because i know for a fact that they do not always use the student loans for what it was intended for. some of them can buy cars and some of them have good jobs and i am speaking from experience. another thing, if a man does not pay child support, they will hold his income tax return. i think they should do the same with the people that owe student loans. if they are working and they get a tax refund, put it toward their student loan. but we must bring up a generation that is responsible and will not expect other people to pay your debt. that is all i have to say. thank you. host: i want to bring up, since this last caller talked about the student loan forgiveness

program, president joe biden attempted to implement -- this is from an article on cnbc.com under the heading "what happened to student loan forgiveness." there are two lawsuits borrowers should know about. one was brought on behalf of six republican-led states, missouri, south carolina, nebraska, arkansas and texas. three judges placed an injunction on forgiveness november 14. it will remain in effect until further order of the court or the supreme court of the united states fights for the circuit. in other words, the program is at a standstill until this court or another makes a final decision in the case. just the latest for the student loan forgiveness program currently on hold due to pending lawsuits. let's go back to the phone lines. ray in syracuse, new york calling as a republican.

you are on. caller: good morning. the gentleman, i wanted to agree with him about paying back student loans. i am still paying a little bit. here is what i wanted to say this morning. after listening to cal's comments, god chose trump as president. god blessed us because we honored his choice as a country. we will surely be judged on what we choose. that is all i have. host: let's take another call. wolf is calling from crossville,

tennessee on the independent line. caller: good morning. i have three things that is bothering we with congress. their pensions, they have one term and they have a lifetime pension. i had to work all my years in social security and i paid into my pension on the side, out-of-pocket, and i had to work 30 some years for my pension. plus my social security. and also, the congress has free health care and i don't understand that. i paid into social security my whole life from the time i started paying. i think i was 18 years old. and medicare, i paid into that also. one more thing, this is going to cause trouble, but campaign

money? i believe all these companies that want payback from the senators and the house of representatives, this money should go into a fund. say for example,, $50 million -- i know what is more than that -- but when they start running for office this money comes out of the fund, they do not know where it is coming from so they do not owe these big companies any money. like i say, pensions, paid health insurance and senators should pay into their own pension or go on social security. thank you. host: this is an article on smartasset.com. it burns up the issue of pensions.

i want to go to this paragraph. a senator or representative's retirement benefit are based on their age, plan and how long they served. no member is eligible for their pension unless she or he has served at least five years. to collect their full pensions, they must either be 62, be at least 50 with 20 years of service, or have 25 years of service at any age. by federal law senators and representatives cannot learn their full salary -- earn their full salary in retirement. they can earn up to 80% of their salary, but they would have had to serve 67 years to get the full benefit. let's go back to the phone lines. darrell is calling from columbus, ohio on the democratic line. good morning.

caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: i am calling about the republicans chasing their tail about joe biden's son. what is that about? what has hunter biden got to do with running our country? they need to stop chasing their tail and start working on what is going on here. secondly, we are complaining about helping out students with student loans. we are sending all these millions and billions of dollars toward this russian war in ukraine and that makes no sense when our democracy in the united states, it has been attacked, it is being attacked. but we are fighting for ukraine's right to have a free

democracy. we better start worrying about our free democracy right here, because there are groups of people who are willing to take the whole system down just because everything is not their way anymore. everything does not look like them anymore. they would rather blow the whole thing up rather than sit down and figure out what needs to be done. nobody in the senate and congress can get anything done because everybody is on one side. that is not how it was supposed to work, that is not how it had worked until satan living down in mar-a-lago came through. they brought the devil into their house, they loved him, they are still behind him and now they can go down with him.

host: let's go to the republican line. this is nancy calling from longview, washington. you are on. caller: i want to complain about all these senators and stuff that took money from that sam bankman-fried. it was illegal money. it was stolen money and dark money and they should repay back every bit of it or be disqualified. and that goes for patty murray and that man in virginia. every one of them should be disqualified if they accepted money from that. host: that is going to do it for us for this segment. after a quick break, we will have john lawrence, nancy pelosi's former chief of staff,

discussing his book. ♪ announcer: preorder your copy of the congressional directory for the 118th congress. it has bio and contact information for every house and senate member, the president's cabinet, federal agencies and state governors. scan the code on the right to preorder your copy today. every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations at c-span shop.org. ♪ announcer: c-span now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what is happening in washington live and on-demand. keep up with the biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings from

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first book printed, and the contents in abraham lincoln's pocket the night he was assassinated. >> library of congress rare book division chief on this episode of "book notes plus." it is available on-span now free mobile app or were ever you get your podcasts. ♪ announcer: "washington journal" continues. host: we are back with john lawrence, former chief of staff for nancy pelosi. he is discussing the democratic agenda and the leadership collection. good morning and thank you for joining us. guest: it is a pleasure to be here. host: what was your reaction

when speaker pelosi stepped down from leadership and why do you think she chose to do it right now? guest: i think her major reason is she had 20 years as the leader of her party. the second-longest of anybody in modern american history. she had had an opportunity under the obama administration and under the biden administration to enact many of the highest priority legislations she was interested in, whether that was health care or resuscitating the economy after the collapse in 2008. infrastructure, climate change, a series of issues she was committed to. she also worked collaboratively under republicans under president trump and the rescue legislation under president

bush. she has showed she has accomplished a great deal herself but she also helped bring along a new team of democratic leaders, who are now prepared to step into the leadership division. host: your personal relationship with speaker pelosi. what do you want people to know about her? what are common misperceptions that people have about her? guest: i think one of the things people misunderstand is the nature of leadership in congress and that is one of the things i write about in the book that i just wrote on her first term as speaker. her great success in being speaker was not a heavy-handed, authoritarian leadership, which i think people associate with her. she was not pursuing a legislative agenda that reflected the liberal wing. she is a pragmatist and

understands collaboration and compromise. she derives her power from the members of her caucus who support her, because they understand she spends the time necessary talking to them, getting to know them and their political needs. that is how she ended up being so successful and been able to produce the victories, by narrow margins, when necessary to do so. host: we want to get to some of your calls. you can start calling in now for any questions or comments you have for john lawrence, former house speaker nancy pelosi's former chief of staff. democrats, your line is (202)-748-8000. republicans, your line is (202)-748-8001. independents, your line is (202)-748-8002. what do you think is the impact?

there was a brutal attack at speaker pelosi's home while her husband was home. he is still recovering. what do you think the impact of this assault was on her decision to step down? and what do you think it says about politics today, as someone who has been around for many years? guest: i think it is hard for me to say with respect to the attack on mr. pelosi, which is a horrific event. i do not know how much that contributed to any decision she made. but i do think that in conjunction with the assault on january 6 against the capitol, which i think was an egregious and tragic assault on an institution she deeply cares about, helped contribute to a sense of the dangers that we face in american politics today. certainly, the attack on mr.

pelosi reflected that as well. i think violence in general has been increasingly looked upon by a small, but determined segment, of the american people to respond to political grievance. that is something politicians of both parties have a legal and moral responsibility to address. host: there was an opinion contributor at "the hill" that wrote about your book. he wrote, "a nonpartisan summary of any sound first draft of history." he goes on to say, "it will note she is the most powerful woman in modern history, she has the most successful and enduring messenger for the modern democratic party."

that is putting her place in history not just in terms of the successful woman but one of the most successful legislators in modern american history. do you agree with that and what evidence would you give people to back up why? guest: i would absolutely agree. i think the evidence i would point to is as follows. number one, she was a successful legislator under democrat and republican president. she was a major contributor to presidential success when she was in the majority and minority, because she could reliably deliver democratic votes on high-priority legin. when in the majority aned with a democratic president she was able to move legislation that had been on the agenda for years if not decades. not just affordable health care but improved energy efficiency, climate change, and a whole host of issues that had languished

for many years because of divided government, sometimes because it was difficult to corral the democratic caucus. i think you have to look at that broad and often bipartisan success she had. it would not have happened, i think, without the leadership she provided. for that, i think she deserves an enormous amount of historical credit. host: before we get to the calls, here is a portion of a 2008 c-span interview speaker pelosi did at the time she had a new book out. she describes why she decided to run for leadership back in the late 1990's. [video clip] >> i did not have any interest in running for political office. i had experienced that. when i was born, my father was a member of congress from maryland. he was elected mayor of

baltimore when i was in first grade. when i went to college, he was still mayor. it was the only life i knew. i thought that was fine for him but not what i was interested in. one thing led to another as i raised my family and became interested in issues. you find out you need a political solution so i got drawn back in and became chair of the council of democratic party, which was following the success in maryland. it was a tremendous honor. i was the chair. i thought that was the ultimate honor and one thing led to another and i came to congress. but i was never on the path to run. to go back to when we were 21 years old or whatever, i would never have suspected such a thing. host: that was speaker pelosi

talking to brian lamb about going into leadership. what do you think made her so effective as a leader? guest: mrs. pelosi subscribes to the philosophy that great british political thinkers do, like mick jagger. you do not always get what you want, but you get what you need. she knows what her members need and she knows what the country needs. she understands her job is a careful balance between with the individual members want from their districts and constituents and what can practically be pass ed and enacted into law. i think that her skills at doing that speak for themselves. there is no speaker, democratic or republican, under both democratic and republican presidents who have had the

success in eliciting support from her members and keeping her members disciplined in order to produce legislative results she has been able to achieve over the course of her career. host: let's get to the phones. our first caller is louis in columbus, georgia on the independent line. what is your question or comment? caller: i would like to make a statement pertaining to mrs. pelosi's career. i think she is wonderful and done an outstanding job and people will always remember her good work she contributed to this country. and she will never, ever be forgotten by me and all the good people here in america. guest: i want to pick up on one thing lewis mentioned and that is that her work will not be forgotten. i am a historian by training and unfortunately, people forget history.

but one of the things she did -- and i talk about in the book -- is aggressive recruitment of minorities and women to both run for congress, and once elected, to elevate them with committee assignments, appointments to speaker boards, to bring them into the leadership. as they rise through this and you already system on the subcommittees and committees, you produce people in the leadership of the congressional process who reflect and look more like the diversity america is. that is something that will endure long beyond her service and for which the country deserves -- she deserves the respect of the country. host: let's go to topeka, kansas where we will hear from mary on the republican line. caller: i just wanted to say the person who attacked mr. pelosi, we do not know much about him.

he was not republican, necessarily, he was blm activist and nudist activist. the information is not clear as far as i can see. nancy pelosi used her husband -- her and her husband used lots of money. she may have danced the democrats' agenda but she was necessarily there for the american people. she was there to increase her own wealth. she has a rich house in california where she lives high up the hog. that is who she is. the democrats may think she is wonderful but she enriched her own pocketbook. thank you. guest: i guess i would respond to two things prayed i would not suggest the attack on mr. pelosi was due to the assailant was of

a particular political orientation. but i will say one of the disturbing things -- and it is not just me that has noted it -- was that there was not stronger condemnation from republican leaders when that occurred. that was disturbing because -- and you can see this in several editorials that have been written recently in "the new york times" -- this unwillingness of republican leadership to speak out against what happened in the capitol in january. and the assault on mr. pelosi is genuinely disturbing. the republicans need to take back control of their own party and one of the ways to do that would be speaking out against the use of violence, whether or not it is perpetrated by a republican or independent or whoever. on this other point, this trope about mrs. pelosi to

influence herself, they were affluent long before she was a member of congress. i think that is something really not related to her legislative objectives. if you look at the legislation she promoted, she was interested in extending health care to lower minorities and expanding support for small businesses. her agenda had support for children, the child tax credit and was not designed toward enriching her or members of her family. host: let's bring up some of the tweets and texts we have received. this one comes from @delivertoni on, and said, she should have retired years ago. do you believe she did a good job grooming, particularly

hakeem jeffries, who is not in line to leave the democrats? guest: i think he is a normally talented as well as others moving into leadership positions. i would say this in terms of retirement. everybody needs to keep in mind mrs. pelosi was speaker, not queen. she had to go every two years before the democratic caucus and make her case and often she faced challenges and criticism. she had to negotiate with those people and ultimately, the house and caucus elected her. the reason she stayed was because she felt that she was being effective and history will have to prove -- if you look at her second speakership -- she was enormously effective. speakers do not pick their

successors any more than presidents pick their successors. this is an inherent process within the caucus and what we have seen is a new generation of leaders has been elected by the caucus, just as she has been, to assistant speaker positions and those of the people now slated to move into those leadership positions. i think it is very much a testament to the influence of mrs. pelosi this is a diverse group of people. host: i want to bring up one more tweet. this one is from @ ct yankee, you cannot be a good leader without being a good listener. how well does this describe nancy pelosi? how open to other's ideas is she? guest: i think one of the reasons pelosi has been a successful speaker is she will listen to people almost without limitation. the staff is well aware of that.

we would very often be in the office at 11:00, 12:00, 1:00 in the morning because a member needed to make their case for an amendment or some other action on legislation. it was the reason she was effective and able to keep this diverse democratic caucus as united as it is. it is historically united under mrs. pelosi. people feel they had the opportunity to make their case. they have not always been able to prevail, they have been able to influence the design of legislation to have something included in the bill to vote for it. it is not common among leadership. she has created a freshman breakfast and sophomore breakfast, which never existed before, so that new members could come in on a weekly basis, meet with leaders, meet with

chairman, talk about the legislation coming up. if anything i would characterize her strength is that she is a good listener, and that is not always a trait you find among politicians. host: as her chief of staff, for this book, it is based on the notes you took in real time in meetings, in strategy sessions. did you know then? what made you take notes? i remember reading the stereotype is people do not take notes because they do not want that on the record in the library of congress. why did you say, i am going to take notes and document everything? guest: i took notes because i am a historian and i realized going into this position that i was going to be able to make a record of the level of interchange between individuals, personalities, factions within the house, but also institutional rivalries with the

senate and white house, and have that as a record for future researchers. i did not anticipate i would write a book, but as a historian, when you are working in said government at the level i worked for decades, you realize what a small sliver of evidence you often have to work with. and here i had the opportunity to provide for future researchers and scholars the ability to go back and find information as it was occurring. these notes i took, 8000 pages on which the book is largely based, they were not written after the meetings, they were not written decades later as people tend to do when they write books. they were written as people were enunciating these words and i think they give you the real sense of that back and forth and that tugging that goes on -- they used to call it belly bumping -- even when everybody is in control of the same

branches of government. there is still personality, factions, ideology, rivalry, and that is what these notes convey that you do not get in an ordinary historical account. host: let's go back to the phone lines. from toledo, ohio, lee on the democrat line. caller: good morning, good morning america. mr. lawrence, thank you for your service too. nancy pelosi has been -- she has been the goat. she is the greatest of all time. she has given us the health care and that is just one example. the temperament that she constantly has when she is making leadership decisions, she thinks of us in america. so many words i could say but i will say this in closing, thank

you for your service as well as speaker pelosi. i am one of those people that think she is the m.v.p.. guest: thank you very much. host: melvin is calling from here in washington, d.c. as an independent. caller: good morning. i am not sure about the politics and everything, i am just finding out about things and trying to keep my mind aware of what is going on. but i had to go back in history dealing with a lot situations. i am not going to debate with

him on how good nancy pelosi was or is, but i never really heard her speak about the african-americans. i think i fell into that and i have been trying to get my case heard since 2008. i think my case as far as my accident that happened september 3, 2008, created a lot of what is happening in this world today. i am being held inside an apartment they have given me. not one person wants me to petition the court to see where i lie in what is going on with me. i think i am being used. host: we appreciate your call.

we got your point and we are going to let john respond. melvin brings up issues speaking to african-american issues but also said he had an issue related to the criminal justice system. what kinds of things did speaker pelosi tackle along those lines? guest: mrs. pelosi had the opportunity to work with those great civil rights leaders in the country and the congress, john lewis was one of her greatest inspirations. most recently, her greatest concern has been trying to restore those provisions of the voting rights act which was eviscerated by the supreme court. and congress did pass the john lewis voting rights act and other legislation to rescind some of the laws that have been passed at a state level that would obstruct the ability of people to vote and try to

modernize those provisions that had been initiated by the supreme court. unfortunately, this is one of the situations where the lack of strong majority in the senate has prevented action from being taken. there are hundreds of bills the house has passed that the senate, largely because of its 50-50 senate, there are a number of structural and procedural reasons these bills do not pass. unlike other legislation, something like voting rights cannot go into the reconciliation process. that allows you to pass legislation with 51 votes. absent any support from the republican side it has been impossible to take up that extension. host: cynthia in staten island, new york on the republican line. your thoughts. cynthia, are you with us?

we will have to come back to cynthia. let's try tom. tom is in washington, d.c. caller: good morning. thanks for your service. i recommend the book to everyone. i have two questions. i wonder if you could speak about the role of congressman john scranton and was assistant to nancy pelosi for several years? my second question is, what advice would you give to the new republican speaker? guest: as far as congressman spratt was concerned, he was long-term chairman from south carolina. and was one of those marginal democrats who was occupying a seat that was voting republican

other than he. he is one of my heroes. he served for many years, provided members of congress leadership on key budget issues which are pretty hard to understand, pretty hard to explain, and it was his diligence and that of his staff that enabled congress to utilize both the budget process to pass the spending initiatives and reconciliation process, particularly when that became necessary to pass the affordable care act to extend health care to 30 million americans and make it more affordable for millions more. as far as my advice to whoever the next republican speaker is going to be, and it may be congressman mccarthy, it may be not. he fell 31 votes short of the majority he will need january 3. i suspect there is a lot of

roiling inside the republican caucus. my advice would be twofold. not that he asked but number one is he has got to get management and control of his own caucus. the republican caucus has been notoriously difficult to manage. in the book i mentioned i encountered john boehner in 2010 and he told me, i am going to be more popular in your caucus in six months than in my own, because he knew his majority was dependent upon the infusion of tea party members who viewed him as much of a problem as they did mrs. pelosi and the democrats. six months later he told me, i have not made it there yet, but i am close. i think mccarthy or whoever is going to face a similar problem. a lot of republicans who have come into office who view the congress in an adversarial way

and did not feel it is necessary to commit themselves to the basics of passing appropriation bills or debt ceilings, the things necessary to keep the government operating and delivering services like social security and veterans checks. the speaker is going to have to get control over that republican caucus. the chances are the speaker will have to come to democrats over and over again insecure those, because he will not be able to get votes from republicans. my concern is the level of partisanship has grown to such a degree that it may be more difficult to get those votes. whoever that leader is they have to sit down with hakeem jeffries and the democratic leadership and determine the working basis upon which they are going to proceed so there is greater collaborative processes that go on as we face these issues coming down the road. host: next up on the democratic

line is doug in muskogee, oklahoma. caller: my comment is speaker pelosi is, in a sentence, able to get things done. i kind of relate her speakership when the insurrection happened. who was doing most of the talking between schumer and mcconnell? nancy pelosi was the one doing the talking. i kind of like in that -- liken that to a commercial that somebody gets things done.

what i mean is, when somebody talks, she listens. thank you very much. host: that thought about pelosi, when she talks, people listen, and she was the one being out front and may be the uncomfortable thing or save a thing other people will not. we saw that after january 6. is that a trait you saw from her throughout the years? did it develop over time or was that always part of her characteristics? guest: she chooses her words judiciously but she does not shy away from controversy, she does not shy away from putting issues out there. in the book repeatedly, you will see her take very confrontational stances with people with whom she has strong agreement, barack obama, harry reid, chuck schumer, members of her own caucus, insisting they

address issues of importance to her house members. she is a very direct -- sometimes people will see the public nancy pelosi and she is very well spoken, very articulate and she can be very pleasant and she is. but when you are in the back room and deals are getting cut or she feels the house's position is being challenged unfairly, there is no doubting as to her opinion and what she expects other people to do. she can be very direct and very outspoken. host: let's hear from lisa in texas calling as an independent. caller: good morning. i have a comment. mrs. pelosi is my kind of lady. she has a lot of grace with spark and fire.

she has done a lot for the common american people. guest: i would say that when she went to congress in 1987 in the special election there were 12 women in the congress, and many occupied widow seats that they had gotten because their husbands had died and they had run for office. there were far fewer african-americans, far fewer hispanic members or asian-american members. i think that she cast a very broad strategy to attract people, to bring people into congress, to encourage them to run. she felt strongly about elevating women's issues and although i think she was reluctant to overemphasize her role as the first woman speaker -- and it is obvious she was --

nevertheless, she put issues she thought were critical to women, working women, families, children on the front of the agenda. she also -- she was very moved and is very moved by her personal faith. she views many of the issues she addresses, whether it is climate change or the future of the environment or the future of children, very much from that kind of ethical and religious basis. this is a role she feels and a job she fulfills in a deeply personal way along her constitutional responsibilities. host: our next caller is alan in waverley, ohio, calling as a republican. caller: good morning. the house of representatives has the primary responsibility for the nation's finances. when she took office, the national debt was $2 trillion,

when she is leaving it is $32 trillion. it is the highest percent we have had in the history of the country. won't she have some part of the responsibility for basically destroying our nation's finances? thank you. guest: well, i think everyone in congress is going to share responsibility for the debt. nobody gets to escape that responsibility. i would point out that throughout her speakership, and throughout her service in congress, a lot of the damage that has been done to the debt in terms of the deficit has been done by republican tax policies, quite frankly. she opposed those policies. she opposed the $1.7 trillion deficit tax cut president trump put through. she opposed the bush tax cuts that were unpaid for in the early parts of his

administration and she fought hard to rescind in 2012 the $600 billion tax cut for the upper 1% or 2%. she warned at the beginning of the iraq war it would cost $1 trillion and she was almost laughed out of the room. i think it has cost $7 trillion. i am not here to exonerate nancy pelosi or democrats in their role. i think everybody bears culpability for spending, but i will say this, when she ran -- when we were running in 2006 to win the majority, she fought to impose the pay-as-you-go role which have been developed in 1982 by george miller from california. it achieved balance budgets in the 1990's. when republicans took over, they rescinded it and they never founded pay-as-you-go which means you cannot add to the

deficit without paying for it first by either raising taxes or cutting spending. the deficit skyrocketed under president bush. it had been balanced for three years under the leadership of john spratt on the budget committee and president clinton. the deficit skyrocketed with the wars, unpaid for mandates like the expansion of medicare to part d and tax policies. these are serious responsibilities and nobody evaded these, that's true, but this concern that she had -- they did restore the pay-as-you-go when we won majority in 2006. these have been efforts to put constraints around the deficits. host: next is pam in california on the democratic line. go ahead. caller: i wanted to call in and say i love nancy pelosi.

she is a strong, god-fearing lady. the main thing about here is good moms love their children. great mother's love all children. nancy pelosi is a great mother. she is a nurturer by nature. i appreciate her husband and her family and the deficit has nothing to do with her. the little bit of deficit they ran up they gave to the american children and the poor and middle-class. the rest of the deficit went to unnecessary war and to the super wealthy. you have to have a heart to know where to put your money. she has a heart. she knows what to stand behind when it came to putting money in the right place. god bless her forever. she is the most beautiful, sophisticated, quiet storm. noisy when she needs to be and can tear something up. i love the way she shut trump down. she saved our lives, she saved

our country, she saved our democracy. god bless her forever. i love her. thank you, nancy. host: can you expand more on the role families play in speaker pelosi's leadership? guest: again, there are certain personal aspects of her life i am not as comfortable speaking about because they are personal. certainly, anybody who has worked with her nose the extent to which faith is an important part of her life. she is a regular -- attends church on a regular basis and she will quote scripture often when she is talking about the political and policy objectives she faces. in terms of family and children, those are primary for her. and if you will remember, when

she first became speaker, when she took over the oath in january 2007, she told us in the office what she wanted to do the moment she became speaker was to invite the children on the floor as part of the swearing in ceremony to come up to the podium and the representatives said, no, no, no, you cannot do that. mrs. pelosi, when she was about to be given the gavel, turned to the audience and said, i want the children to come up. they did and got that iconic photo. she adopted it at that point the space for the children. that was the motivation behind her speakership and her legislative and policy goals. you saw that reflected in support for things like the

expanded child tax credit, which she fought for at the very beginning of her speakership. she was able to achieve both in the bush stimulus bill in 2008 and subsequently. host: i am trying to pull up that picture you referenced. i see it here. let's see if we can pull it up. i think this is it right here. good, we have it. this is nancy pelosi as she is being sworn in as speaker of the house in 2019 at the closing of the 116th congress, surrounded by the children and grandchildren of fellow lawmakers. as you say, her common refrain as someone who covers her, it is for the children. this is david in arkansas city, kansas, calling in as a republican. caller: i think nancy has made a

lot of money off of the stock market. she ruined health care. when they passed obamacare, i had really good insurance for $100 a month and now it costs me $500 a month and i have a $6,000 bill before i can get any money. it is a disgrace to the country. i am glad she is gone. thank you. guest: i would say if the caller has a $6,000 deductible before he gets health care benefits, he should go on the obamacare exchanges and find a new policy because that is not the best he could have. it is because of the affordable care act and mrs. pelosi and president obama and all the members who supported it that we

were able to prohibit discrimination against pre-existing conditions and allow children to remain on their policies until age 26. we ended discrimination against women. we included comprehensive care. we took caps off the amount of insurance anyone would have to face. and made policies affordable by supporting and expanding medicaid. in many states, including states that are very conservative that initially resisted -- the voters have taken it onto themselves to go around their conservative legislatures and pass expansions of medicaid, which granted accessible health care to millions of people in those states. it is fiscally responsible for any governor to turn down the expansion of medicaid, which

directs health care to the lowest income people in the state. by not doing that and -- and depriving those people, you increase private health care costs and premiums for everyone else. that is what misses pelosi was able to do with health care, and i've got to believe that there has to be a better option out there for the caller. host: we will take one more quick call. linda what is your question or comment? new jersey, on the democrats line. caller: i want to thank mr. lawrence for straightening out the prior caller, but what i wanted to call about was her knowledge of the constitution. i would match her with anybody in the white house right now. host: quick final thoughts? guest: this adherence to the

constitution is something no member of congress should ever have any question about and she and many others are deeply troubled by some of the trends in the country we see, challenging constitutional rights whether it is the right to vote or individual rights to privacy, or the outpouring of violence. that is something every elected official remains firmly committed to. host: thank you so much for joining us. this is john lawrence. his new book is titled "arc of power: inside nancy pelosi's speakership, 2005-2010." that does it for washington journal today. we will be back tomorrow. have a great day. ♪

c-span's washington journal. every day we take your calls live on the air of the news of the day and discussed policy issues that impact you. monday morning linda from the christian science monitor gives a preview of the upcoming week in congress including what to expect during the late session. then a look at the policy issues before congress including additional aid for ukraine. watch washington journal live at 7:00 eastern monday morning on c-span, or c-span now our free mobile app. join the discussion with phone

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