representative. now there is an effort underway to spell at what that means what conduct is unbecoming of a representative and how that could guide future decisions. host: what are the big issues this week before we let you go that people should be watching for? guest: the biggest event of this week, i would say, is the state of the union. how does joe biden addressed some of these concerns about the spy balloon that republicans are bringing up? what happens after they gang of eight briefing? how do republicans respond to whatever the pentagon explains when they are able to explain their decision on the spy balloon? what is the next step? is that something that makes the issue go away for republicans or is that something that will merit more investigation hearings, as you brought up.

i think the house weaponize asian subcommittee hearing will also be interesting this week just to see how aggressive they are planning --weaponization subcommittee hearing will also be interesting this week just to see how aggressive they are planning to be. host: liz goodwin follows reports on washington journal c. host: we want to welcome back to the program gene dodaro, who is the u.s. comptroller general and head of the government accountability office. when you get involved in holding the government accountable? guest: the gao exists to aiden sure the accountability of the federal government to to benefit

the american people. the scope of our responsibilities across the entire breadth of the federal government's responsibilities. we get involved on our own initiative. wherever there are federal funds or a federal nexus, we also have a number of requirements that congress puts in law or statutory language. we also respond to requests from committee chairs and ranking members. we reach -- treat both the same. we are professional and fact-based. host: mr. todaro has been with gao -- mr. dodaro has been with gao for 45 years.

how did the gao get involved with those programs? guest: in the original cares act legislation in 2020, there was a statutory provision for gao to audited the money and look at its effectiveness. we were asked to provide monthly briefings to senate and congressional committees and to provide bimonthly reports to the congress and the public. that was done through the first year. then we moved to quarterly reports. now we are reporting on a periodic basis. we have issue 10 governmentwide reports. we have issued close to 200 individual reports on selected aspects of the process. we have made over 150 recommendations. we are still reporting and will continue to report as some of

the coronavirus money is available to be spent through 2026. host: what has been the take away from all of this investigating and were ports that you have done -- and reports that you have done? guest: we think the funding help to provide stability to the economy. it helped a lot of small businesses. it helps provide help through unemployment insurance, the paycheck protection program, the economic entering disaster program. there were trillions of dollars provided to individuals, businesses, the private sector, and public-sector organizations. some of the money went to support operation warp speed, which helped to expedite the development of the vaccines,

which we have had. the federal response could have been better organized. we have made recommendations for an early testing strategy. we are good for a better vaccine communication distribution plan. there were supply chain issues, so we made some recommendations about how a stockpile could be better built up. it is across a wide range of areas. we made a number of recommendations on the trade-offs that were made. there was a lot of urgency to get help out to people early on in the process. there were trade-offs made that limited the accountability and transparency objectives of the legislation. there was more fraud than anyone wanted.

there were a lot of improper payments that were made. we made a lot of recommendations to agencies about how they can sure up there management practices to better prevent fraud and improper payments so that the money was helpful, but it could have been even more helpful if so much had not been lost to fraud and improper payments. host: cnn reported on one of your recent reports to congress and to the american people. " benefits fraud likely tops $60 billion." what happened there? guest: several things. on ine the original legislation there were, provisions -- one, in the original legislation there were provisions for self certification. people did not have to provide supporting benefits. states were encouraged to waive

the waiting period for unemployment insurance benefits. they waved to some of the documentation requirements -- waived some of the documentation requirements. congress eventually addressed this in december 2020, but by that point billions of dollars had already been spent. he states that administer the unemployment insurance program, normally states collect taxes from employers and pay unemployment benefits. the government gets involved only to provide some administrative support when there is a recession, or in this case a pandemic. the states, because unemployment had been a record low levels

before the pandemic -- staffing was down, they have a lot of i.t. systems -- they were overwhelms the number of claims. almost all sectors of the economy had unemployment problems at the same time so the combination of relaxed application processes, the huge amount of money that was there, and the states being overwhelmed, that led to the programs being more susceptible to fraud and error than they otherwise would have been. host: we will divide the lines this morning by region. eastern, central part of the country (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific time zones, (202) 748-8001. you apply for this money

thinking, "it is there," but you did not qualify for it, will the federal government ask for it back? guest: yes. the government will prosecute those people who willfully misrepresented their situation to gain this information. there have been over 1000 people already who have pled guilty or have been convicted. over 600 people are facing charges. the small business ig has 536 active investigations underway. the department of labor inspector general is opening up 100 new cases every week. congress has already extended the statute of limitations for the paycheck protection program from 5 to 10 years and the

inspector general has asked congress to do the same thing for unemployment insurance fraud. $60 billion, that is a conservative estimate on the low-end of the fraud. we are currently putting together a much more comprehensive estimate and the fraud in that particular program is likely to be higher than the $60 billion. host: one of the concerns you had with these improper payments is the lack of controls to detect and recover improper payments. they can get this money back, but do they have the tools to do so? guest: yes. they are getting a lot of tips. this can also include improper payments. the ig of the labor department has received complaints,

close to 200,000 that they are tracking down. we have available on their website. -- our website. there are additional examinations underway. all of that said, greta, the track record on recovering a lot of this stuff historically is difficult. it is what is normally called the pay and chase model. it is not the most efficient way. the most efficient approaches to prevent the fraud and improper payments from happening in the first place. we worked with congress in 2016 to pass the fraud reduction act. that puts a framework of best

practices in place. we are making more recommendations. we are making additional efforts to try and get the federal agencies better prepared for normal program activities as well as to be much more prepared for inevitable emergencies that will occur in the future. host: let's talk about numbers before we get to calls. how much money did congress appropriate in response to the pandemic to the economy and the hills that followed? can you give us an estimate of how much was made in improper payments of that amount? guest: the total amount of money appropriated by the congress was

$4.5 trillion in a series of about 6 different pieces of legislation. so far, $4.4 trillion has been appropriated. we do not have a total yet, because some of the programs did not estimate improper payments yet, including the pandemic unemployment insurance program, which was set up to help self-employed workers, so it was different from the traditional unemployment program. we have some estimates i can share with you. the unemployment insurance area went from improper payments in 2020 of $8 billion to in 2021 $78.1 billion.

the rate went from 9% improper payments up to 22% improper payments. the paycheck protection program and the economic injury disaster loan program did not estimate payments for 2021, but it did for the first time in 2022 and it was over $35 billion. you have quite a few improper payments there. the problem with improper payments was a problem before the pandemic. you have had over $200 billion. the normal -- it has been growing for years before the pandemic. we have been working on that with the agencies, with

congress, and we will have to continue to work on it. the pandemic relief systems greatly exacerbated this problem the government has, so it needs to be addressed more forcefully. host: blaine on twitter says, " how many people in this country took covid money and did not even need it? they should probably pay it all back." nathaniel in irvington, new jersey. let's hear from you. caller: i had one quick question for the guest. i know there has been a lot of talk about oversight, common american people who took benefits during the pandemic. i want to know, will the same oversight be placed on the 1%, the politicians of all these corporations who took a lot of covid relief money? will that same oversight be

applied to them? i will hang up and hear the response. thank you so much. guest: thank you, nathaniel. it is a good question. gao and the inspectors general lacrosse government, there is an inspector --generals across government are pursuing these investigations no matter who the people are. there is some organized crime activities here. i know the secret service is also doing the investigation. i have a great deal of confidence that people who committed wrongdoing will be addressed and investigated no matter who they are. host: gene dodaro is our guest. he is the u.s. comptroller general and head of the government accountability office. we are talking about coronavirus

spending and oversight of those dollars. our next caller is from ohio. caller: all of these homeowners who have these large homes, i fear very much what will happen is what happened in 1929. who is the mystical bank we owe this money to? who do we owe this money to? who is doing all of this ridiculous accounting? who are we in debt to? host: gene dodaro, go ahead. guest: did you want to say something? host: i'm curious about what he had to say, the overall spending as you pointed out, $4.5 trillion over 6 bills. host: that was the largest

rescue package in american history. we had a large package during the great recession and the housing downturn that led to the type of problems the color is referring to that -- caller is referring to that could lead to the same problem now. we were involved in auditing that program at that time as well we are keeping an eye on the housing market. you are right to raise it as an issue. i am very concerned about the housing market because during the global financial crisis in 2008, 2009 the government took conservatorship of freddie mae and fannie mac. the federal government lynch

more loads to be federal housing administration, so a lot of the risks -- lent more loans to the federal housing administration. a lot of that risk ways on the road government -- weighs on the federal government's doorstep. with regards to the debt, right now there is $31 trillion of debt. most of that is owed to the public. these are treasuries people by. a lot of -- people buy. a lot of people buy treasuries. treasuries are considered one, if not the, safest asset for

people to hold. there are other countries that purchase are treasuries too. somewhere around one third. his health -- somewhere around one third is held by foreign entities and other central banks around the world. when there are global concerns about the economy, there are a lot of people around the world who purchase securities because of the safety of the asset investment and the federal government's impeccable record of paying its debts on time. those treasuries are lent through the treasury department. they are the federal government's banker, bookkeeper, along with the federal reserve. the treasury department's

responsible for the lending and working with these capital markets that work in the treasury markets.