having me. and god bless all of you. thank you. [applause] thank all of you. thank you. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org. studying cybersecurity and energy infrastructure as well as legislation expanding tribal lands. when the house returns, watch live coverage here on c-span. >> this afternoon house speaker kevin mccarthy starting at 5:30 p.m. on c-span 2 and watch live on c-span now or online at c-span.

org. >> the state of the union is strong because you, the american people, are strong. >> president biden delivers the annual state of the union address outlining his priorities to congress on tuesday, his first state of the union speech since republicans won back control of the house. following the speech, governor huckabee sanders will deliver the response. watch our coverage the state of the union on c-span, c-span now or online at c-span. org. dodaro, who is the u.s. comptroller general and head of the government accountability office. when you get involved in holding the government accountable?

guest: the gao exists to aiden sure the accountability of the federal government to to benefit the american people. the scope of our responsibilities across the entire breadth of the federal government's responsibilities. we get involved on our own initiative. wherever there are federal funds or a federal nexus, we also have a number of requirements that congress puts in law or statutory language. we also respond to requests from committee chairs and ranking members. we reach -- treat both the same. we are professional and fact-based.

host: mr. todaro has been with gao -- mr. dodaro has been with gao for 45 years. how did the gao get involved with those programs? guest: in the original cares act legislation in 2020, there was a statutory provision for gao to audited the money and look at its effectiveness. we were asked to provide monthly briefings to senate and congressional committees and to provide bimonthly reports to the congress and the public. that was done through the first year. then we moved to quarterly reports. now we are reporting on a periodic basis. we have issue 10 governmentwide reports.

we have issued close to 200 individual reports on selected aspects of the process. we have made over 150 recommendations. we are still reporting and will continue to report as some of the coronavirus money is available to be spent through 2026. host: what has been the take away from all of this investigating and were ports that you have done -- and reports that you have done? guest: we think the funding help to provide stability to the economy. it helped a lot of small businesses. it helps provide help through unemployment insurance, the paycheck protection program, the economic entering disaster program. there were trillions of dollars provided to individuals, businesses, the private sector, and public-sector organizations.

some of the money went to support operation warp speed, which helped to expedite the development of the vaccines, which we have had. the federal response could have been better organized. we have made recommendations for an early testing strategy. we are good for a better vaccine communication distribution plan. there were supply chain issues, so we made some recommendations about how a stockpile could be better built up. it is across a wide range of areas. we made a number of recommendations on the trade-offs that were made. there was a lot of urgency to get help out to people early on in the process. there were trade-offs made that limited the accountability and

transparency objectives of the legislation. there was more fraud than anyone wanted. there were a lot of improper payments that were made. we made a lot of recommendations to agencies about how they can sure up there management practices to better prevent fraud and improper payments so that the money was helpful, but it could have been even more helpful if so much had not been lost to fraud and improper payments. host: cnn reported on one of your recent reports to congress and to the american people. " benefits fraud likely tops $60 billion." what happened there? guest: several things. on ine the original legislation there were, provisions -- one,

in the original legislation there were provisions for self certification. people did not have to provide supporting benefits. states were encouraged to waive the waiting period for unemployment insurance benefits. they waved to some of the documentation requirements -- waived some of the documentation requirements. congress eventually addressed this in december 2020, but by that point billions of dollars had already been spent. he states that administer the unemployment insurance program, normally states collect taxes from employers and pay unemployment benefits. the government gets involved

only to provide some administrative support when there is a recession, or in this case a pandemic. the states, because unemployment had been a record low levels before the pandemic -- staffing was down, they have a lot of i.t. systems -- they were overwhelms the number of claims. almost all sectors of the economy had unemployment problems at the same time so the combination of relaxed application processes, the huge amount of money that was there, and the states being overwhelmed, that led to the programs being more susceptible to fraud and error than they otherwise would have been. host: we will divide the lines this morning by region. eastern, central part of the country (202) 748-8000.

mountain and pacific time zones, (202) 748-8001. you apply for this money thinking, "it is there," but you did not qualify for it, will the federal government ask for it back? guest: yes. the government will prosecute those people who willfully misrepresented their situation to gain this information. there have been over 1000 people already who have pled guilty or have been convicted. over 600 people are facing charges. the small business ig has 536 active investigations underway. the department of labor inspector general is opening up 100 new cases every week.

congress has already extended the statute of limitations for the paycheck protection program from 5 to 10 years and the inspector general has asked congress to do the same thing for unemployment insurance fraud. $60 billion, that is a conservative estimate on the low-end of the fraud. we are currently putting together a much more comprehensive estimate and the fraud in that particular program is likely to be higher than the $60 billion. host: one of the concerns you had with these improper payments is the lack of controls to detect and recover improper payments. they can get this money back, but do they have the tools to do so? guest: yes. they are getting a lot of tips.

this can also include improper payments. the ig of the labor department has received complaints, close to 200,000 that they are tracking down. we have available on their website. -- our website. there are additional examinations underway. all of that said, greta, the track record on recovering a lot of this stuff historically is difficult. it is what is normally called the pay and chase model. it is not the most efficient way. the most efficient approaches to prevent the fraud and improper payments from happening in the first place.

we worked with congress in 2016 to pass the fraud reduction act. that puts a framework of best practices in place. we are making more recommendations. we are making additional efforts to try and get the federal agencies better prepared for normal program activities as well as to be much more prepared for inevitable emergencies that will occur in the future. host: let's talk about numbers before we get to calls. how much money did congress appropriate in response to the pandemic to the economy and the hills that followed? can you give us an estimate of how much was made in improper

payments of that amount? guest: the total amount of money appropriated by the congress was $4.5 trillion in a series of about 6 different pieces of legislation. so far, $4.4 trillion has been appropriated. we do not have a total yet, because some of the programs did not estimate improper payments yet, including the pandemic unemployment insurance program, which was set up to help self-employed workers, so it was different from the traditional unemployment program. we have some estimates i can share with you. the unemployment insurance area went from improper payments in

2020 of $8 billion to in 2021 $78.1 billion. the rate went from 9% improper payments up to 22% improper payments. the paycheck protection program and the economic injury disaster loan program did not estimate payments for 2021, but it did for the first time in 2022 and it was over $35 billion. you have quite a few improper payments there. the problem with improper payments was a problem before the pandemic. you have had over $200 billion.

the normal -- it has been growing for years before the pandemic. we have been working on that with the agencies, with congress, and we will have to continue to work on it. the pandemic relief systems greatly exacerbated this problem the government has, so it needs to be addressed more forcefully. host: blaine on twitter says, " how many people in this country took covid money and did not even need it? they should probably pay it all back." nathaniel in irvington, new jersey. let's hear from you. caller: i had one quick question for the guest. i know there has been a lot of talk about oversight, common american people who took benefits during the pandemic. i want to know, will the same

oversight be placed on the 1%, the politicians of all these corporations who took a lot of covid relief money? will that same oversight be applied to them? i will hang up and hear the response. thank you so much. guest: thank you, nathaniel. it is a good question. gao and the inspectors general lacrosse government, there is an inspector --generals across government are pursuing these investigations no matter who the people are. there is some organized crime activities here. i know the secret service is also doing the investigation. i have a great deal of confidence that people who committed wrongdoing will be addressed and investigated no matter who they are.

host: gene dodaro is our guest. he is the u.s. comptroller general and head of the government accountability office. we are talking about coronavirus spending and oversight of those dollars. our next caller is from ohio. caller: all of these homeowners who have these large homes, i fear very much what will happen is what happened in 1929. who is the mystical bank we owe this money to? who do we owe this money to? who is doing all of this ridiculous accounting? who are we in debt to? host: gene dodaro, go ahead. guest: did you want to say

something? host: i'm curious about what he had to say, the overall spending as you pointed out, $4.5 trillion over 6 bills. host: that was the largest rescue package in american history. we had a large package during the great recession and the housing downturn that led to the type of problems the color is referring to that -- caller is referring to that could lead to the same problem now. we were involved in auditing that program at that time as well we are keeping an eye on the housing market. you are right to raise it as an issue. i am very concerned about the housing market because during the global financial crisis in 2008, 2009 the government took

conservatorship of freddie mae and fannie mac. the federal government lynch more loads to be federal housing administration, so a lot of the risks -- lent more loans to the federal housing administration. a lot of that risk ways on the road government -- weighs on the federal government's doorstep. with regards to the debt, right now there is $31 trillion of debt. most of that is owed to the public.

these are treasuries people by. a lot of -- people buy. a lot of people buy treasuries. treasuries are considered one, if not the, safest asset for people to hold. there are other countries that purchase are treasuries too. somewhere around one third. his health -- somewhere around one third is held by foreign entities and other central banks around the world. when there are global concerns about the economy, there are a lot of people around the world who purchase securities because of the safety of the asset investment and the federal government's impeccable record of paying its debts on time. those treasuries are lent

through the treasury department. they are the federal government's banker, bookkeeper, along with the federal reserve. the treasury department's responsible for the lending and working with these capital markets that work in the treasury markets. the treasury markets have grown dramatically over the years, almost tripled in size due to the fact that the federal government is borrowing more money. we at gao have said that the government is on a long-term fiscally unsustainable path. i have called repeatedly over 6 years for the federal government to have a plan in place that can bring us into a more sustainable financial position over a period of years. we will need to deal with all aspects of federal spending that

deal with this problem. it has to be a multi-year plan. right now we do not have any targets. the gdp ratio, or any guardrails to protect federal spending. congress is responsible for setting all federal spending under the constitution. the executive branch is charged with executing those laws as congress has put them in place. i have also called repeatedly for a change in the debt ceiling approach. right now there is a current debate about raising the debt ceiling as well. i think we need a different approach for setting the debt ceiling that brings in-line more of our spending and revenue decisions at the time they are made. right now we are allowing the treasury to borrow the money that congress has already appropriated. that obligate ---those

obligations have already been made. host: to our viewers you can call in and talk about this spending. as you heard our guest gene dodaro can also talk about government spending overall. lori in massachusetts, good morning to you. could you mute your television, please? caller: i have two really big problems. first of all, i have done accounting my whole life, and there is one thing worrying me. social security. all they, have to do with back when i was a child there was something that people called -- they didn't call it welfare. if you are broke, you got help from neighbors. it is so ridiculous.

if they would stop this social security benefits, that has nothing to do with the social security fend that people pay over -- fund that people pay over their lives. host: go ahead, gene. guest: congratulations on being 95. that is quite a milestone. i wish you continued good health and prosperity. the social security system needs to be reformed because when it was started there were maybe 8, 10 people working for everyone retired person in the united states. now it is less than 3 people working for everyone retired person in the united states. it was built on the concept that payroll taxes that people pay that are currently working would be able to generate enough money

to pay senior citizens. since people were living a lot longer, as you are and a lot of your peers, there is not enough revenue in the system. it needs to be reformed. i have called for such reformed because if we do not reform the system, projections are by 2034 there will only be about $.77 on the dollar to make payments. many people rely heavily, if not exclusively, on those social security benefits. the area needs to be addressed, and policy makers becoming increasingly aware. it also applies to the medicare part a. by 2028, it will not have enough to meet 100% of its obligations. it will meet about 90% at that time.

both of those programs are critical to the health and safety of our growing elderly population. host: peter in durham, north carolina, welcome to the conversation. caller: good morning. the lady was correct about social security. there is no money. it is all full of iou's there is no money in social security. the 77 cents on the dollar, i don't understand it. there is no money in it. the annual budget stopped with harry reid. harry reid never submitted a budget. congress should present a budget. no one does it anymore. it doesn't make any sense. how can we have a debt ceiling when they don't present a budget? host: gene dodaro, what are your

thoughts on that? guest: peter, the $.77 i referred to our payroll taxes that are being collected. revenue does flow into the social security fund every year however,, it is not enough to pay the benefits, so you are correct in that the incremental difference is set in treasury securities. part of the $31 trillion in federal debt, the government owns itself. there are from payroll taxes every year, money flowing into the fund. the question is, will it be enough long-term? with regards to the budgeting process, you are correct in the sense that the budgeting process is not operating as originally intended. the president does submit a budget every year.

it is due technically in february. congress is supposed to enact 12 appropriation bills to buy up the federal government. the but that process has not worked so fluidly. as a result, and with few exceptions over time, it is supposed to be done by the beginning of october, october 1, the start of the fiscal year. technically, this appropriations bill most recently has not been ready. so, congress passes and i'm the abyss bill, and they did it in december. that is typically the timeframe. but that omnibus appropriation bill in effect operates as the

budget for the federal government. but it has not gone through the private -- through the budget process, nor has there been resolutions as should be passed. your comments there, and a number of observance, including members of congress, no the process needs to be anymore regular order. we will go to california. adam. good morning to you. caller: good morning. i watched you on the senate hearings or house hearings, and i found you to be incredibly accurate and you did your best to answer the questions. i have a couple questions, if i may. have you done any research on the covid-19 great reset book that was put out by clouse schwab? i think that is an important thing people should pay attention to.

the waste, fraud, and abuse in the omnibus, which i call "under the bus," that amount of money that was put out is just an unbelievable amount of waste. it will never be recovered. it is money that has been thrown into the streets. california, for example, had a $125 billion surplus two years ago. today, we have a $25 billion decrease. one more quick thing. 66 million seniors are on fixed income. we are in a recession. that's all i have to say. thank you. guest: thank you, adam. i appreciate your interest in gao and following our testimonies. i will talk to my team to see if anybody is familiar with what the -- with that covid-19 reset

book. we are continuing to do work in this area. i also designated the department of health and human services preparedness, leadership, and coronation for public health emergencies as a high-risk area. i don't think we have clear goals and responsibilities sorted out. there has not been communication with public, a lot of data needed to be collected. the government is supposed to have in place a national surveillance system since 2008 or 2009, and it is still not in place. there is still a lot of work to be done in order to make sure that we, as a federal government, are better prepared to deal with future public health emergencies. so, we are working on that. we will take a look at this book and see if there are any ideas in there. now, on the omnibus, we audit,

along with the inspector general's, that money on a regular basis and we will continue to do that to make sure it is spent properly as well. i have continued to point out these improper payments that were made. the two programs on a regular basis that have the highest improper payments are medicaid and medicare, along with the earned income tax credit. i am trying to work to get reforms in place to bring those payments down, particularly since medicaid and medicare are two of the fastest-growing programs in the federal government. you are right, there needs to be continuous vigorous oversight over federal spending. thank you, adam. host: amy in florida, good morning to you. caller: hello, good morning. i just wonder what this gentleman had to say about reform.

he keeps saying the word "reform." what that really sounds like to me is that he is going to take away from the people. no. i do not agree with this at all. i believe that we should stop with the funding of the pentagon and all these continuous wars and things like this. why can't we have health care, why can't we have things as americans that we pay into? and we can have a nice life. i don't understand why we always suffer. we suffer for war. i don't get it. guest: well, amy, first of all, one of the most fundamental responsibilities of the federal government is to provide national defense. we see, when things happen in the world, why having a national defense is important, to stop the aggression of one country against another. if we want to have a good life, it starts with having good, strong national defense in

place, so that we can live in the democracy we have created, have control over our own destinies within the united states. it's very important that we have a strong defense. when i say reform, i am saying that because if it is not changed, there will be deleterious effects on people. i mentioned social security. unless it is changed, there won't be enough to pay social security benefits in the future. and i use reform as change. i am not saying that we should take it away from anybody. in fact, to the contrary. i am saying that people have to act to ensure that it is continued into the future and that people can have comfort of mind, peace of mind, and at the assistance the federal government has committed to be provided will absolutely be

delivered. we are working, aiming to try to make sure those things happen. in the context of having a sound economy and a good, strong national defense. host: in pennsylvania, they want to know if your office is tracking weapons sent to ukraine. but we can also add to that. overall, just money that congress has approved, are you tracking that? guest: yes, we are. we just received a request to do that in the consolidated appropriations act that passed in december. we had already started based on requests from some congressional committees peered we have done this in the past. we had teams in the baghdad and iraq war. we had teams in a couple. we were in afghanistan. we are already looking at that and will be tracking funding, equipment, and accountability over that by the defense

department, the state department, and the humanitarian assistance that comes from the united states aid for national develop in. we will be auditing all of that in conjunction with the inspectors general for those three departments and agencies. yes, in a word. host: in the "new york times" this morning, there is an article about republicans on thing to cut spending, but they note that their appetite for earmarks has grown. that is their headline this morning. do you track more money for earmarks is sent to and how the money is sent -- is spent to make sure there is no fraud, waste, abuse there? guest: absolutely. we have been asked by congress to track these congressionally directed projects. one of the bodies and community

projects and another, they are formerly known as earmarked. yes. we have already issued reports for the projects that were set up in the 2022 fiscal appropriations act. if people -- people can get those on our website. you can get in touch with our public affairs office there. there are phone numbers or whatever. if you cannot find them searching on our website, they are fairly prominent. we will be doing that for the most recent round in 2023 as well. the reports we have issued so far says how much money, where it supposed to go, who is going to provide oversight in the federal departments in agencies over that money, and then we will take a sample of these projects. there are hundreds, if not

thousands of them. we will go in, edit them -- audit them in depth, make sure they were spent appropriately and go to the intended recipient , and there is fiscal accountability over the money. host: for our viewers, if you want to track the federal government spending and oversight of road by the gao, our guest has said you can go to their website, gao.gov. they are on twitter. let's hear from melissa, in bloomfield, iowa. is that right? caller: yes, ma'am. host: good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. as a couple of questions and some follow-ups for the gentleman here. first off, you say everybody pays in their whole life to social security and then they get social security, right? well, explain to me how somebody can be here for less than five years and work, pay in for only

those five years, that they get full benefits. that makes no sense. guest: i'm not familiar enough, melissa, with the mechanics of the program to give you direction there. if you leave your name with our hosts here at c-span, i will have somebody get in touch with you and answer that specific question. host: is there a contact number or email on your website as well for people? guest: yes. we have "find an expert" on our website. if you go to that section of the website, you will find our experts on education, income security, and social security would fall under income security. you can contact that person directly with that phone number and email address listed there. host: michael, arkansas, good morning to you. caller: good morning, america. i have been waiting 20 years to

ask someone this question. i have read and heard that the administration stole, borrowed, whatever you want to call it, over $1 trillion from the social security fund. has that ever happened? has congress ever appropriated social security funds out of social security? host: did you hear michael? guest: i wasn't clear. host: he had heard that the johnson administration and i believe he said the reagan administration borrowed money from the social security fund. he wants to know if money has ever been borrowed from that fund to pay for other things. guest: offhand, i cannot recall an instance that that has happened. i would have to go back and check. i have been around in gao for 49 years. but i was not around in the johnson administration. host: [laughter] guest: i would have to go back

and do some research on it and i cannot give you a definitive and -- definitive answer right now. guest: that's ok. we will talk with anita in st. louis, missouri. oh, i have to punch the button. there we go, anita. your turn. caller: thank you. i would like to ask the comptroller general if there has been any oversight into the over $150 million that president trump made off his hotels when he was president, since he did not put his assets into a true buying trust. it, as i said, has cost we the people over $150 million. is there any effort to have accountability for that or retrieve any of that, to get any >> we are going to leave the last few minutes t