that tell stories of their lives and presidency on r c-span website visit c-span.org/presidents this presidents' day weekend. >> tom rang up on "washington journal" this morning your calls and a discussion with keith hall about key components of the federal government. that author and historian john cribb talks about his recent books on abraham lincoln and what americans could learn from him today. wash journalists next. -- his next

stand with you. ♪ host: that is president biden who made a surprise trip to ukraine not only to commemorate the one year of battle but to pledge our support for ukraine from the united states. we show you portions of the speech from kyiv and ask you to comment on has visit. the larger issue is the support for ukraine. republicans (202) 748-8001. democrats (202) 748-8000 and independents (202) 748-8002 if you want to text your thoughts (202) 748-8003 is how you do that. you can post on facebook and on twitter and you can follow the show on instagram.

the announcement of the trip came in the early morning hours today. the associated press saying he made the an announced visit a striking gesture of the solidarity that comes days before the one-year anniversary. president biden recalls the events of nearly a year ago. it comes at a crucial moment as president biden looks to keep unified with ukraine. and also while in kyiv president biden announcing a half billion dollars of assistance on top of 50 billion already provided. that is from the associated press if you want to go to c-span.org, you can see portions of the video from the president's visit. here is a portion of the speech

talking about the re-newed support. [video clip] pres. biden: the american people know matters of unchecked aggression. it is a threat to all of us. we built a coalition, nato. japan in the pacific, across the world. a number of nations. to help ukraine defend itself. we united the leading economies of the world. and we are squeezing russia's economic lifelines. we have committed rarely 700 tanks and thousands of armored vehicles 1000 artillery systems,

more than 2000 rounds of artillery ammunition more than launch rocket systems and air defense systems. all to do you fend ukraine and that doesn't count the other half $1 billion we are announcing within today and tomorrow that will be coming your way. that's just the united states in this piece. just today, the announcement includes artillery ammunition, antiarmor systems, errors surveillance readers to help protect the ukrainian people from aerial bombardments. we will adopt -- announce additional sanctions against elites and companies backing russia's war machine. this week we are delivering

billions in budgetary support billions in direct budgetary support. host: again that is president biden who is in kyiv, ukraine this morning. i'll stop in ukraine talking about additional resources the united states will provide for the conflict. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 four democrats and independents (202) 748-8002. you can text us up (202) 748-8003. ukraine has also been pushing for battlefield assistance that would allow forces to attack russian targets out of the range of the missile systems that the president spoke about. president zelenskyy is going to talk about the weapons supplied.

some of you posting on facebook about the president's surprise visit to ukraine this morning. if you want to post their that is facebook.com/c-span. mary saying when it comes to the visit, a courageous man thank you, president biden. it's a gutsy move on mr. biden's part. also adding it is a token. 200 billion mark to pay pension and fix infrastructure that he goes on to say president trump goes to ohio that's all you need to know to wake up. then one talking about the additional resources there, wasting the hard working poor man's money once again. those are some of the comments on our facebook page.

twitter is available too c-span wj is how you do that. let's hear from john in michigan about the trip to ukraine. john, you are. , according. caller: i completely disagree with this whole war on ukraine in the united states support for it. we are building and expanding our presence around china at different locations and how would the united states and the american people feel if china or russia built their military bases, for example, maybe canada or cuba? this is bad. this is very bad. there is no way for me to know this, in my opinion, if you took a poll of the american people on all sides i would say 75% of people with disagree with this nonsense and all the money we

are spending in ukraine with all the issues we have. host: oy to you think about the president's visit itself as far as what it stands for? caller: i think it's a joke i think it's disgusting. the trails recruitment going on, fema has refused to help those people. why would the federal government say ohio is making a request, fema please help us saphenous is no? host: janice is up next, hello. caller: hello? host: you are on, go ahead. caller: we should get out of ukraine. absolutely get out of ukraine. corporations and wealthy people should pair -- pay their taxes. we need cost control not

increased, not increased wages. host: we will go to kelly in texas, republican mind, good morning. caller: get morning, how are you this morning? host: find what you think about the trip to ukraine? caller: my thought is we need to get out of ukraine and worry about our on country. we have a wide open order i a live in texas so believe me when i say it is wide-open here. we have so many problems in our own country and mr. biden does not recognize any of that. that is what blows me away about all of it. i don't like to criticize presidents but, you know, it's like america last that is how i feel. host: are you saying he is

putting america below ukraine? caller: i understand ukraine has problems but they have been a corrupt country for many years. we have our own country to worry about and our country is in very bad shape right now. anyone with any kind of commonsense knowledge without that. i am not for the war in ukraine, it needs to stop. we spent anymore money than any other country on ukraine. and i know i'm correct on that one. host: john brooklyn, new york. go ahead, please. caller: i think ukraine should be supported because nobody can tell when putin is going to stop. once he gets ukraine he will want all of europe and he will do it because it is putin. people forget who years.

if he takes ukraine, he's going to take another one. host: this is from the washington post this morning when it comes to vladimir putin, the president likes to portray himself as the new czar. the gather of the russian land but the year-long or failed to secure the landing he looks to seize it. the russian leader. desperately needs a military victory to ensure a long-term survival. loyalty does not exist according to one russian billionaire. they begin with hubris.

even as he suffered military defeats, allegations of atrocities being committed mr. payton has tight his authoritarian grip at home. hipsters, lgbtq people and especially western-style freedom and democracy it was during the president's stop in ukraine where he named roots at vladimir putin. [video clip] pres. biden: the cross the ukraine has had to bear has been extraordinarily high. the sacrifices have been far too great. if we mourn alongside the families of those who have been lost in brutal and unjust war. we know there will be difficult days years ahead.

russia wants to wipe ukraine off the map. this world conquest is failing. russia's military has lost half of its territory that it once occupied. yet russians are fleeing not wanting to come back to russia. not just fleeing from the military but fleeing from initial itself. because they see no future in their country. russia's economy is now isolated and struggling. who to vote ukraine was weak and the west was divided. as he it up, i said to you he is counting on us not sticking together he is counting on an ability to keep nader united. he is counting on us not being

able to bring others on the side of ukraine. he thought he could outlast us. i don't think he's thinking that rate how. god is what he's thinking. he is plain wrong. use host: president again if you want to call on the line (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 four democrats and dependents (202) 748-8002. (202) 748-8003 is the number if you want to text us this

morning.

we cannot give up on ukraine. it is in our best interest. host: that this jerry there in tennessee.

a little over five hours spent earlier today you heard the questions of the speech he made. volodymyr zelenskyy the president of ukraine is quoted saying i know military support is expected and this is a clear signal of russia's attempt. the story from bloomberg adding the white house warning about providing aid. china is considering doing so. they consider it a line that must be crossed. we have been showing you portions of the president's visit in ukraine for about 5.5 hours with ukraine's president to talk about issues not just of the conflict with reaches the year anniversary later this week but also with matters of paid --

aid. you can comment on one of those two fronts. (202) 748-8001 for republicans, (202) 748-8000 free democrats, and (202) 748-8002 for independence. greg is next, from tennessee, republican line. caller: i called on the long line but i am in support of the president. host: i'm going to ask you to call back on the correct line. let's hear from james on the line. good morning, go ahead. caller: in morning, good morning. i am in support of the president being over there and it's scary listening to the people who aren't. they listen to media outlets like fox. it blows my mind how people are

fractured and they don't see the truth. host: as far as the trip itself do you support it? caller: i support it because we need to support peace and democracy. not the russians way of thinking it is just money related. so we, but at least we'll have a moral compass. seems to anyway. host: that is james, it's here from marvin in virginia. you are next up, good morning. independent line. caller: good morning, pleasure to speak to you and your audience. i think visiting ukraine during time of war is a brave decision but what will come afterwards is it the status quo or will it start some sort of peace process?

the amount of destruction and death has been horrific and hopefully this will lead to some sort of end to it. host: are you saying the u.s. should play a role in with happen? caller: i haven't seen much effort for negotiations and maybe upon being there on the ground, seeing the country and some of the people might spout that and let's hope that's the case if not, i had to say the trip was a glorified photo op. host: mark there in virginia when it comes to support of the ukraine taking a look at such topics and support from the american public. as the russian invade -- invasion nears it. this is a pop-up that has gone up. if i can get on their 48% said

they provide -- favor the u.s. providing weapons to ukraine. back in may of 2022 that is three months into the war 60% of u.s. adults said they were in favor of sending ukraine weapons. again ab discusses during the president's stop in kyiv this morning earlier today. from shea in texas, democrat line. hello. caller: i am very satisfied that the united states is in ukraine and biden is representing some of our believes that we should help people unfortunately, we have to go back in time when the russians lined up their tanks. we should have been there at that time.

who in their right mind did not know that the russians were going to attack ukraine? we knew they were going to do that. nato, u.n., we all should of been there and stopped at the border. we should have stood up to putin at that border. why did the world sit back and watch this nation, watch russia into ukraine in the first place? i am glad biden is there i'm glad we're showing hours worked. if we don't stop it at the border, is going to be and other adolf hitler and world war ii. it is spreading like a cancer from one country to another country to another country. it's going to be a hardware to fight. yes, i'm glad biden is there. we should have been there when they lined their tanks about the border. host: joyce is next in las

vegas, independent line. caller: russia entered ukraine in the first place. host: good morning? caller: i'm sorry. i believe that we should be in ukraine as part of nato. not on our own. i would also like to verify did hunter biden get any of his money back to help the work? host: let's go to florida, republican line, marty good morning. caller: to me the answer is simple. we don't have the money to be in ukraine. we are trillions of dollars in debt. where are we coming up with this money to help ukraine? ukraine wasn't in nato so we have no obligation. ukraine has known that russia, they are in the crosshairs of russia and why weren't they saving up?

why are we supporting them when they could've, you know, supported themselves. anyway, we don't have the money, that's all i have to say. host: if you are just joining us the president spending a little over five hours this morning in kyiv, ukraine. making a stop to visit with president zelenskyy. you can see there the video talking about a variety of issues when it comes to the conflict between ukraine and russia. talking about u.s. support for financial spokes persons. when it comes to the effort of the ukrainian's fight against russia. you can comment on the phone lines or text us at (202) 748-8003. our two twitter feed is at

c-span wj. democrat line, go ahead. caller: good morning. i want to remind everybody that ukraine has demilitarized russia. yawning to think ukraine and think god they stood up to russia. host: why do you think russia is not a threat? caller: the huge military that they proposed to have had, they don't have that. they don't have the equipment, and they no longer have the means to make tanks and to make these munitions they need. as soon as we get rid of the airplanes they've got, they are gone. host: that is robin there in north carolina.

taking a look at the aid being provided by the united states and the means of oversight. oversight officials respond that over 110 billion in economic aid to ukraine, they would press to deploy auditors into the war zone to beef up monitoring. that includes inspectors general from the pentagon, state department. thus far they have been able to deduct critical oversight remotely using personal space in washington, poland, and determining adding that following a trip in late january they were pressed to put some of the auditors and investigators scrutinizing deed on the ground, the biden administration has limited key personnel for security reasons.

amir in rhode island is next. caller: that's the wrong move. i think it's a better move most people are speaking philosophically about russia from the point of view of the ussr so they come here with that. at the end of this, no matter who wins the united states is going to need regime change in ukraine and that is what people are not talking about. the actual winner is the one who actually has power in the region. when you get in with ukraine, you're going to have other politics that they are not talking about. there are members in times of peace failing to be a part of nato so when you are making allies during a war, it's very easy for after the war is over the main country that is helping you needs you to change your

regime, they are going to have to take your allies so it destabilizes the whole region. nobody becomes allies and russia automatically becomes the champion. host: republican line, susanna, come ahead. caller: i wanted to make a comment about this. my heart goes out to the people of ukraine and they need help, but we also, i am concerned about china and taiwan and i am afraid that the ukraine war is taking our focus off of another huge problem. i wonder sometimes if the war in ukraine is just a part of this scheme by these communist countries. if is my comment. host: what you mean part of a scheme? caller: playing in tandem with the communism takeover by china

and russia. host: surely is next in new york city. caller: yes. i want to tell the american people that democracy means everything. [indiscernible] we have to stick with our president. he is doing the best that he can do. we would be looking for help for ourselves. he is not giving away anything that won't affect us. we need to help these people. everybody once more, you have to take a small vacation this summer, you know. but to marcus three mate --

democracy means everything. i may not be able to get everything i want but democracy means everything. host: ok. shirley there in new york city. the new york times profiling what is going on. it is a self-portrait saying schoolchildren collect empty cans while learning in a new weekly cross with the russian military liberated aggressors who seek world domination. artistic freedom, the special -- antiwar performances a few exhibits put on by the state of play on nazi-ism.

speaks to cast the western military alliance as posing a threat as existential as the nazis of world war ii. many of the groups that have sprung up in the first 30 years have been with national groups having taken centerstage. the president making a trip to kyiv, ukraine this morning the earlier part of today again we should you portions you can comment on that, the larger issues of the a to ukraine. (202) 748-8001 republicans. (202) 748-8000 per democrats and (202) 748-8002 independents. sydney, go ahead. caller: not to know the facts of

history that in 2014 victorian oakland from the state department overthrew the government of the ukraine and it was a bloody overthrow and then they shelled russians in ukraine for about 14,000 that were killed. jan all talk about that. y'all act like russia just come in there for no reason. you and the rest of our media do not tell the whole story. host: if that is the case as you stated, what does that mean for today then? caller: it means we should not have started this war and we should not be paying for this war and they overthrew the

ukraine the same way they overthrew most -- in 53. we have a bad habit of overthrowing little countries to get our way. host: arlington, virginia, republican line. caller: i wanted to say thanks a lot for taking my call. the ukrainians are really fighting valiantly and i think what has been achieved so far was remarkable. just as a human being, i want to say our really hope there is an emphasis on negotiation because i think the big risk calculus occurring right now is the idea that continued fighting will continue -- or continued support will change the potential settlement. i think russia is taking it hard -- digging in hard.

the risk calculus has to be very shrewd at the idea that things will end sooner rather than later. just from a humanitarian standpoint, the hope that there is increased emphasis on political settlement. i think our military leaders have been talking about it, it is the only way you can bring peace. ultimately you have to have a political solution that becomes tenable. it may not be the solution every party wants to lead with. thank you again for taking my call. host: james is in virginia, democrat line, go ahead. caller: good morning, thanks for taking my call. i totally support president biden's visit to the ukraine. the ukrainian people are fighting for freedom.

the united states stands for the brave and freedom. that is what we should be all about. we should give them the equipment they need to fight the russians. all you people who are calling in saying we shouldn't and worrying about one or two people coming across our borders, just look at their infrastructure, what the russians have done to it. if you are american, as i am, after 22 years of service i believe we are brave and we can always fight for freedom. for freedom. host: similar sentiment being shared. after being asked about more military when it comes to similar types of things here is what he had to say, a portion of what he had to say. he was at the munich security

conference and this is what he had to say from there. [video clip] >> the longer they drag this out he wants us to be -- he wants us to be a he knows potentially we could lose the will of the american people and therefore the congress. we are seeing the same dynamic in the european parliament. they are worried if this worri't end with the resolution sooner rather than later this will be an issue for us. >> you mentioned the need for ukraine to have more weapons to fight russia bipartisan groups in congress wrote to president biden urging president biden to give ukraine jets. you said the u.s. gives ukraine everything they need to win this. >> i hope so. it's been on the table for months.

the same delivery applies to the high mars. the longer they wait the longer the conflict will prevail. i honestly, honestly every top military expert i talked to at this conference agreed with what i was saying. mike turner, we need to throw everything we can into this fight so that they can win. he's going to tell us that soon as well. i think the momentum is building for this to happen. host: on the twitter feed of the white house, they have a picture featuring president biden and president zelenskyy. today president biden reaffirmed the end wavering commitment to territorial integrity. united states will stand with the ukrainian people for as long as it takes. also putting out an r stemt from president biden

sayinge had a meeting with president zelenskyy. i will announce another delivery of critical equipment including artillery, ammunition,ntrmor systems, to help protect the ukrainian people from aerial bombardment. over the last year, e ited states has had a coalition of regis. that is -- that support will endure. we should you portions of the president's statement he made in front of cameras earlier today if you go to our website you can see both the statement and also president zelenskyy's statement. part of the 5.5 hour visit in ukraine earlier today. you can talk about that trip, many of you talking about the larger aspect when it comes to

u.s. support. this is calvin in the virgin islands, independent line. caller: good morning, i think the president it was good to go to ukraine. [indiscernible] you're looking at the support, you are taking money give it to the ukraine. american taxpayers shouldn't be

the only once. host: send it to ukraine. ted is next in arizona, republican line. caller: good morning. can you hear me? host: you are on, go ahead. caller: i am very disappointed with the americans exciting with the russians. he is a russian puppet. i can't believe those people. i'm very disappointed. i don't know what to say. host: what about the president's visit to ukraine this morning? caller: in support president biden, 100%. host: ok. in texas, democrat line. caller: i'm so proud of president biden showing america

what a president looks like. there has only been one person in america -- host: we will leave it there. watched your language when you call into the program. this is from february 12 saint the united states continuing the contributions for nearly 200 billion. according to the ukrainian government, total military financial and humanitarian aid that was between january 24 of 2022 and the same span the rest of the world has contributed less than 75 billion of total aid. that is coming from the united kingdom, estonia, poland. this does not include bones sent to ukraine or contributions approved either prospective

governments. john in florida independent line. caller: good morning, everybody at c-span. what i think about the visit to ukraine, i think it is wasted time. he should be in east palestine, ohio. he should be visiting the people of america and the tragedy going on there. as far as the support 115 billion so far to ukraine, to pay for pension funds as well as war supplies, we are also paying you know you have the right sector in ukraine, you also have -- also supporting nazis any ukraine. i want to know why in 2014 the revolution in ukraine to start this off i think the guys name

is john humbert the nato commander? he was able to give ukraine time to get ready for this war. host: boyd is next, west virginia, republican line, go ahead. caller: i believe biden is just looking at the economic side of it. all he wants to do is make a name for himself. he knows wars create jobs and helps make the rich man richer and that is all he's interested in. he is not interested in anything but making a name for his some -- himself. he knows, he knows he created all those jobs. he didn't create jobs, covid did. host: back to the president's

trip, are you supported of his trip to ukraine are not? caller: no because is not going to stop russia. russia is going to be there for the duration and they are going to do what they have to do. he's only going to help things worse. host: ok. that is boyd there in west virginia. 5.5 hours president biden spent in kyiv. the original plan was traveling to poland tonight but in the early hours of the morning it was announced that the president landed in kyiv for a 5.5 hour visit. he was with president zelenskyy they're talking about a variety of things. we should you portion of the speech. you can still go to c-span.org and watch portions of the speech yourself including the response and the comments of president zelenskyy. you can talk about the trip,

many of you talking about the larger issue when it comes to support. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats and independents (202) 748-8002. if you want to text us your thoughts this morning you can do that at (202) 748-8003. in georgia, sheila is up next. caller: can you hear me? host: you are on, go ahead. caller: i don't know or people get the idea that russia is no longer a threat. they are in could hoots with china. they are in cahoots with north korea. china, their funding russia anything they want.

you know i've heard that the gop is totally for this. as far as ukraine is concerned, as far as they are even for biden. everybody is together with this. host: that is sheila there in georgia. just a little over 10 minutes left if you want to make her thoughts known on this you can call you can post on our social media site. i want to pose a little bit to give an update when it comes to former president jimmy carter he has entered hospice care at home following that series of short

hospital stays according to the carter center. he has had brain bleeding from recent falls. he underwent a procedure to relieve pressure. we don't know but we must respect his decision to do so. is best known for the agreement between egypt and israel. greatest failures were ineffective leadership including the presiding over stagflation here at home. it was during many events that we have taken in with president carter including an interview in 1999. [video clip] >> talk about the office of the presidency. is it as powerful as it should be? >> the american presidency is

extremely powerful in the arena of foreign policy. the competition gave me unilateral rights to do so. the congress had no role to play in that decision. i could have done so. without consultation there are getting permission from the congress. the legislation, a most all the legislation passed in my four years originated in the white house. i can't remember a single major bill that originated on the congress. the congress expected me to say this is what i want you to do. i said the think of the president has the right to know control the economic of the

nation. he has the equal role to play with the congress in stagflation. but the federal reserve board, in terms of the rate of inflation and the growth of the economy. even greater than that is the free enterprise system of our country. with the conglomerate mass of corporations, general motors, ibm. another thing the president has no control over his the international situation. the president of the united states has nothing to say about that. the oil embargo, we had gas lines. prices went sky high.

the president gets blamed for economic changes if there bad. he takes credit for them if they are good i would say the president plays a 10-15% role in the nation's economy. foreign policy, the president is it. host: interview done in 1999 you can see that and more with president carter. you can go to our website at c-span.org for that. the former president going into hospice care at 98 years old. back to your comments on president biden's visit to kyiv, ukraine earlier today. republican line in wisconsin, david. caller: morning, pedro. prayers and thoughts with the

carter family. getting back to ukraine if we are going to do this, for the stew this. let's get the draft going. let's start making weapons and get this over with so it doesn't track on for another 20, 30 years. that's all i've got to say. host: massachusetts, and dependent line. caller: good morning, i feel really bad for the ukrainian people. president biden being over there, he spent more time over there that he has at our southern border. we are losing 300 individuals a day for fentanyl. he has not addressed that much, he hasn't addressed north korea.

he hasn't addressed china with the trade. and we are spending, we have already given ukraine $100 billion. there is no talks of any kind of peace negotiation. because president zelenskyy wants crimea, and all of his land. crimea was taken during the obama administration when president biden was then vice president biden. we are not paying attention to our own country. we have our own problems over here. we need to secure our southern border. host: let's go to jason in san diego, democrat line. caller: good morning, i would like to say that president biden spent five hours with ukraine. but putin spent a total of eight hours with trump in private with

no other u.s. citizens there to know what they talked about. we don't even know what they discussed. he thought he was going to get that election -- >> how is that relative to today? how does that relate to the events of today? caller: we are talking about bidens supporting ukraine. he made the move and went over there with them. well putin made different moves. there is no, we don't know what they're talking about. at least we know what biden is talking about, we see it. we don't know what this dude was talking with putin about. host: bill is in pennsylvania, republican line, go ahead. caller: thanks, pedro. the guy from wisconsin, he is talking about the draft. this guy is walking as world war iii. this is not some small country.

we are lining up and giving billions of dollars. it is going to be peacekeeping forces, this clueless president we have is walking into world war iii. this is not our war. this is what everyone said, if our state department overthrew the government of ukraine in 2014 i, why are we hampering in a country on the border with russia? because we want to try to check russia's growth? here's another thing, have russia and us over fought in a war? yes, we were always on the same side. russia fought with this in world war i. russia fought with us in world war ii. but we demonized russia from the

old soviet days. they are a fine nation of people. we should allow them to take care of russian-speaking people on the eastern edge of ukraine. host: ok. if that is bill there in pennsylvania let's hear from david in california, and dependent line. caller: hi, good morning. i see these things like we did after the cold war. he had all the way up to eastern germany. it is nato and european union why didn't he go to the european union and say let's sit down together to find a way to make peace. if you live by the sword you're going to die by the sword. that is all i have to say about this. if we keep attacking somebody that has the same weapons

knowledge we do all they have to do is the same thing and we will all be dead. thank you, have a good morning. host: democrat line, don't know where, -- delaware good morning. caller: i think it's a good idea he is over there in ukraine because if they help ukraine, if russia gets ukraine i would rather see them fighting over there in ukraine instead of in my backyard. host: bill pascrell democrat from new jersey posting on his twitter feed with the link of the president's visit to kyiv this morning also highlighting the fact that it is presidents' day. also marjorie taylor greene with her twitter feed sink this is insulting. joe biden the president of the united states chose ukraine over america. goes on from there if you want

to read the twitter read the some of the legislators that have commented from the visit earlier today. caller: i just wanted to say that i think even though president biden has not done so well at home i think his decision to go to ukraine was very important to show that the united states continues to support the ukraine, the ukrainian people. however, i will say that one of the challenges is that the cost of the war is making democrats, republicans, and independents worry about the continued support. i just wanted to, again, congratulate the biden administration and other republicans on this continued support and i hope that there

can be a solution because it's going to be a big challenge to continue to get the support. i don't know if the public, especially as we geared towards the 2020 for affliction will continue to support the war. the ukrainians needed, anyway, thank you. host: finishing off this hour on calls about the president's trip thank you to all who have participated. we are going to kick off a weeklong series to about the federal budget and how we arrived at our physical state in the united states. we will be joined by keith hall, the former director of the budget office and author and historian john cribb on the life and legacy of abraham lincoln, and what americans can learn from him today. on this holiday, we will continue with "washington journal" after this.

♪ >> the name of america, which belongs to you in your national capacity -- >> fourscore score and seven years ago. >> ask not what your country can do for you. >> through history, presidents have delivered inaugural speeches. on saturday, watch our 10 parts theory -- 10 part series on history tv. ronald reagan, george w. bush, and barack obama. this week will -- will feature speeches from two presidents. >> the proper meshing of the

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host: you have seen the big picture numbers when it comes to the national debt. 32 trillion dollars. a lot of resources show that, including the debt clock that we show a lot here on the program. your predecessor has said that more money will be added to that. can you give, from your perspective, how we got here? guest: sure. the number one because, frankly, is we simply outspend our revenue every year. we have been outspending our revenue by 130%. this is something that has been happening for the past 15 years in particular, ever since the great recession. in 2017, literally, national debt was about $5 trillion. this year, it is going to be $25 trillion. all of that has been added to fight the great recession and

now the pandemic. we really just overspent our tax revenue by a tremendous amount. it is somewhat of a change in our strategy on dealing with recessions did it used to be, we would let the federal reserve do their thing, have a safety net, unemployment insurance, etc. and of course, tax revenue would go down one week get a recession. starting with the great recession, we tried very hard to spend our way out of the recession. we spent trillions of dollars for the great recession. we have now spent trillions of dollars for the pandemic recession. and we are continuing to spend more at this rate. a second problem is the level of debt has gotten very high. as i mentioned, we owe $25 trillion to the public. we owe $32 trillion overall. the interest on that debt is

about $640 billion. we are now paying more in debt than all of what we pay for medicaid. i will mention the trust funds. social security and medicare, highway trust fund, disability trust fund, so far these have not contributed to the debt. the funds have been sufficient. but the aging population has made the taxes collected for those funds, think of the taxes we all pay, that is starting to become less than the outgo. in other words, while the level of funds has been rising for years, it is now starting to fall. in the next two years, those will start going insolvent. we are not going to have enough money to pay benefits. that hasn't been a problem, but that is an upcoming problem. but really, the big thing is we

outspend our revenue by quite a lot. this upcoming year, we are going to spend $6.2 trillion and we are going to take in $4.8 trillion in tax. so, we are borrowing 1.6 trillion dollars. we don't have anything going on. we are not in a recession, we are not trying to spend our way out of a particular problem. we are just borrowing way too much money, and it is going to continue going forward, that is clear. host: we have heard on this program, and i'm sure you have heard over the years, that when it comes to blame, republicans blame democratic administrations and vice versa. when it comes to who is to blame party wise, how would you see that? guest: there is enough blame for everybody. i would give a testimony to the budget committee with republicans and democrats there. i talk about the state of the budget, which isn't very good.

afterwards, sometimes, i would get a democrat coming down saying, "you are right, taxes aren't high enough." minutes later, i would have a republican come down and say, "you are right, spending is too high." they are in agreement, except their solutions are completely different. they just don't have a commitment and they certainly don't have any sort of cooperation with each other on budget issues. host: if you want to ask our guest, as we kick off this series taking a look at budget issues and spending issues, a weeklong series, keith hall is joining us, the former cbo director. if you want to ask him questions, (202) 748-8001 for republicans, (202) 748-8000 for democrats, and independentss, (202) 748-8002. if you want to text us your thoughts, (202) 748-8003 is how

you do that. mr. hall, you probably heard the debate going on about the debt ceiling and using that as some type of means to discuss spending issues. you have probably seen this strategy talked about over the years. what do you think about that as a strategy? guest: first of all, the debt ceiling was put in by congress over 100 years ago. in its effort to maintain control of the pursestrings over the president. it is a serious threat. you don't want to have a debt ceiling exceeded, because we want to be able to pay our bills. the plus side of it is that it makes you focus on the budget. whatever you think of the debt ceiling debate, it is going to happen again. we have had to increase the debt ceiling 80 times over the last 100 years. that is because we keep borrowing money and the debt

level keeps going up and we keep on thing that ceiling. however it is resolved this time, for example, it is going to show up again in one year, two years, whenever we hit the ceiling again, but we are going to hit it. we need to think about some long-term planning or even medium-term planning, on how to slow the rise in debt. host: mr. hall, forgive the one on one nature of this discussion, but for our audience at home, there are two major categories when it comes to spending. mandatory spending, including health programs like medicare and medicaid, social security, which you brought up, income security programs, federal retirement programs, and veterans programs as well. there is a ffence between that and discretionary spinning. we will talk about that in a second. let's start with mandatory spending, as far as the larger discussion of how budgets are done and where we are today. talk about the impact of mandatory spending. guest: sure.

first of all, mandatory spending , or instances where the president and congress have passed laws that spend money, they do it automatically. it is called mandatory because people, for example, get social security benefits because they are eligible for it. one of the issues about mandatory spending is there is no annual debate. it is just on automatic, and we spend a lot of money on mandatory spending. well, it is about 60%, two-thirds is on automatic. when we have this annual debate in this annual budget that congress has to pass, the president submits a proposal, that is only on the nonmandatory part, the discretionary part. we are having trouble debating and coming to an agreement on just a piece of the budget, when the really big problem is the

largest part, the mandatory part. that is the part that is really going to grow. not only is it a big part of the budget, it will get bigger because we have an aging population in particular, and health care costs are wrapped in there as well. health-care costs are rising very quickly. the mandatory spending is actually the real problem, the elephant in the room. the annual debate doesn't always have to talk about it at all. they are just talking about a piece of the budget. host: so, that leads us to the other major category, discretionary spending, determined on that annual basis by congress and the president. an also, defense spending. itaythat represents about half of that discretionary spending, and other major spending, like education and the like. guest: that's the stuff people think about when they think about what government does. anything from infrastructure to agriculture, although thing the government spends money on, it all falls into this

discretionary spending. and as you say, there are two parts. there is defense spending, which is about half of the discretionary, and nondefense, which is the other half. this is the part where every year, congress needs to write up bills to fund this. that is what discretionary spending is about. the president needs to sign the bills. they have this knack and forth on getting the bills written in the president has to sign them. the process is a complete mess, an absolute mess. this is actually the start of the congressional budget process right now. the congressional budget office, which is an arm of congress, has just put out this state of the budget report. the next step is the president is going to submit his proposed budget. we are going to start a process with deadlines and a process in place.

they will miss a reasonable deadline. in fact, we have already missed the deadline for the president's submission of a budget. that was supposed to happen a couple weeks ago. the discretionary budget is a small piece, but there is just no cooperation between parties. whoever is in power controls it. and they really don't include the minority party. if it flips, things look very different once it has flipped. host: again, our gross -- our guest served as the former director of the congressional budget office be at he did that from 2015 to 2019. mr. hall, a few words about the mercator center. what is it? guest: it is a research center. it is part of george mason university. the idea is to provide research to support government operation. i like to think of it as

supporting evidence based policy. if you want better policy, it's hard to do without having legitimate evidence. at the mercator center, we are independent researchers and we publish reports that provide evidence that hopefully policymakers will then use to help guide some of their decisions. host: do you take a political point of view when you take these positions? guest: not particularly. there is a tendency for them to be more republican -- more conservative, but we try to be nonpartisan. evidence is not partisan, evidence is evidence. it provides things to help policymakers. host: let's hear from michael in

virginia. you are on with keith hall, the former director of cbo, here to talk about budget and spending issues as we take a look at this all night long. michael in virginia, go ahead. caller: i was just wondering if we can handle the economy the way we have handled trump, in that he continually crossed red lines every day and we did nothing in reference to that. and the bond market, with all the investments of other countries, if we just decided not to pay, like trump said, they will learn to live with it. the biggest economy in the world, i know there would be fallout, but i would think that after years, people would get over it because we are a leader. thank you. guest: the problem is we need to borrow money. the federal government just out spends their tax revenue by a lot. part of what happens is that as long as the federal government

has a good reputation, the interest rates are low. we have already seen those go up. that has been a real problem, because it is adding billions and billions of dollars to this borrowing cost. so, if we defaulted on our loans, interest rates for future borrowers, and there will be future borrowing, will go sky high. worst case scenario is if people won't borrow -- or loan the federal government money anymore, that will be the worst case and error. look at grace, who has had no problems. they went into a really bad recession when they defaulted on some of their payments, something like you are talking about. that's not a good idea. so many have spent decades and centuries of keeping a good reputation. that is why people loan us money. not to mention the effect on the economy. it would almost certainly create issues that might result in a recession. you are right in one respect. one of the things we need to be

aware of, when the federal government out spends its revenue, they issue bonds, which is borrowing money. private citizens borrow that money. private companies borrow the money. foreign companies and countries loan us that money. about 40% of our debt is owned by investors in china, japan, and other countries. there is a real international part. 60% is owned by u.s. citizens and companies. host: there is a viewer that makes that point a draws a comparison, saying that when it comes to the debt, host of it is owed to social security and pension funds in the u.s., meeting u.s. citizens owned most of the national debt. guest: it's not most of it, but it is a significant part. $67 trillion are owed from the trust funds, like social security, etc. as i mentioned, those trust fund levels are now starting to full.

the trust funds are going to be cashing in the bonds. we have issued them bonds, saying, hey, we are borrowing your money. now they are going to be saying, we need it back. that is going to raise the borrowing from the public that we have got to make. you are right, we owe a good chunk of it to ourselves. not most of it, but a significant amount. host: on our independent line, south dakota, nick. hello. caller: hi. in terms of government spending, i think we spend way too much on defense. i think a lot of that money could be used toward something like clean energy or health care. i don't know how feasible that is. obviously, you can't please everybody. i would just love to see our tax dollars go to something more than this endless war. thank you. guest: sure.

that's part of the debate on the annual budget process. where does this discretionary spending go? how much is going to defense and nondefense? i'm just raising a concern that whatever we are spending it on now, we are spending way above our revenue area and to spend money on things that you then borrow funds to do creates a problem. there is a real serious problem with having this much debt. the debt is very high. it's about $25 trillion or 32 trillion dollars, depending on how you measure it. over the next 10 years, that is going to almost double. we are going to owe another $20 trillion. we are just taking this debt and passing it to a future generation. this is a gift in a very bad way. if there are no adults in the

room now, if congress and the president won't start paying back some of this debt now, the hope is that some future president and congress three decades down may start paying this back. this is an intergenerational transfer, and that is serious. it is a horrible gift to give our children and our children's children. the second thing is, all of this borrowing raises interest rates. we are seeing higher interest rates now. that actually slows economic growth. we are going to see a slowdown of economic growth in the coming decades. it is in large part because of all this debt that we have now accumulated. we are already going to have a challenge, having a smaller labor force as baby boomers retire. this is going to mean slower growth and slower growth of incomes. it's going to be harder to pay back the debt as well. host: mr. hall, you talked about spending. let's talk about revenue.

what keeps the united states from gaining the revenue it needs? guest: most of our revenue comes from income tax, individual income taxes. that is the bulk of it. and we have tax laws. i would say, to be able little more philosophical, you have got the government spending money. it produces output. we like at least some of what they produce. but the cost is our taxes. you have to pay for it. i think you need to be very careful when you spend money, to make sure it is worth the tax money is going to cost you. if you've got something new, you want to think through, let's not just borrow money, let's think about how we are going to fund this with our taxes, and stop just borrowing money. this is not free. federal spending costs us money. if it's not taxes now, it will

be future taxes to future generations. host: you've heard as well as others the biden desire to increase the staffing of the irs. what do you think of that as a strategy and what results can come as far as more revenue? guest: it is small fish. you can add to the irs staff. you may increase tax revenue -- this sounds crazy, but $200 billion. $200 billion is a lot of money. we owe $30 trillion. this is no solution for anything. it is a way to increase tax revenue a little bit, but not a lot. host: another question on taxes. this comes from a viewer. you have probably heard this as well over your time there. let's roll back tax cuts from president trump and president reagan's tax cut plans.

that will be a simple fix to where we are at. guest: a good part of the 2017 tax cuts are expiring over the next few years. some of that is already going to be rolled back. and certainly, you could do that. it is like any other increase in taxes. but you have got to think through about the effect. let me just say, we are running a huge deficit. taxes now are really high. that four point $8 trillion in taxes that we will collect this year, that is a lot of money. we have never collected that much in dollar terms before. we are spending more on a percentage term than before the pandemic. we have higher taxes, higher than average taxes were already, and spending is way higher than the average taxes already. so, you can do that, but you have to think about the effects

of doing that. i am trying to be unbiased in my solution. you can do it by either raising taxes or lowering spending or both. if there is going to be a solution, is likely to be some sort of deal or we do both things. but you have to try to make the spending and the taxes get closer together. we managed to do that for decades, up until 2007. our debt level and percentage terms was fairly constant, about 35% of gdp. we managed to do that for decades. the last 15 years, we have just blown that out of the water. we have just dramatically increased our borrowing. it can be done. to fix the problem. host: this is key call joining us for the conversation peered he is with george mason university. he also served as the former

director of the congressional budget office from 2015 to 2019. in washington state, republican line, elaine. hello. caller: hi. do you have two questions i would like to find out about. one is in regard to, we are spending money, i don't know if it is federal or state, on all the immigrants coming right now. we are housing them, spending a lot of money on that. is that mandatory spending or is that arbitrary spending? and how would that affect the budget? and the other spurt was, -- the other part was, we passed two major laws. but a lot of money, the funds attributed to those jobs, did not pertain to the subject matter. and a lot of it was climate control.

if we pulled back some of the money from climate control, would that help significantly? those are my two questions. guest: sure. the spending on immigrants, the spending on the border for people, it is typically going to be out of discretionary spending, i believe. it will be from homeland security. they have their annual budgeting, etc. it is typically not mandatory spending. but it is coming out of regularly appropriated budgets. what you may find really annoying is that is not huge budget issue, for what that is worth. it can cost millions of dollars, maybe billions of dollars, but the problem is unfortunately much bigger than that. with the infrastructure,

certainly a lot of the climate stuff, this is sort of a hidden thing. sometimes, laws like climate walls, regulations, they don't show up in the budget because you are foreseeing private companies to pay. here, you have a drag on the private economy from doing this. i will say that the climate issue is a real issue, in the sense that global warming does increase costs. it increases hurricanes, etc. whatever the cause, if climate change gets worse, it is actually going to increase federal spending in the long run. that is sort of faked into estimates of things. that is not an insignificant amount of money either, but again, millions of dollars into billions of dollars, when we owe

trillions of dollars. that is some stuff we ought to work into a deal, to fix the budget. those things should be included or not included, however you want, but we need a bigger deal. host: in ohio, akron, democrats line, james. good morning, you are on with our guest. caller: the problem we are having is that a little better than 94% of all news outlets are controlled by conservative this -- conservatives. and that is a problem. also, we have issues with poor people believing that it is better to give tax breaks to the rich and wealthy, as opposed to themselves. as we get any kind of increase in income, the cost of everything goes up. we are being defeated because we believe that stuff is right. if you have a situation where

any company with a designated budget for a particular item is not spent, and you spend the rest of it, makes or increasing income, that is creating big problems for government. government should not do that. they should be based on our needs, as to our expenditures. instead of, at the end of a fiscal year, trying to spend everything there so you can get the same budget or more the next year. these are bad problems that some president is going to have to step up and say, we have to stop somewhere. that is what our problem is right now. we are being fed this propaganda through conservative news outlets. host: that is james in ohio. guest: let me mention, this is

going to sound like a sales pitch, but if you are worried about the news, about getting a straight answer, the congressional budget office is an independent agency. it is nonpartisan. part of what is unique about the congressional budget office is they do an analysis of the budget, they tell congress what they see in the budget, what they see in the budget going forward, and they do it in a very unbiased fashion. they are working forward democrats and republicans equally. there are sources of information out there which will tell you the true story. i know it is a challenge to know which ones to believe, but if you try to think about the branding, there are these independent places like the congressional budget office that really will give you a clear picture. for example, i have tried hard not to tell you how it should be fixed, other than the budget problems should be fixed. part of the point, one of the

things the congressional budget office says, we offer no opinions as to what should be done. they tell congress what will happen if they do particular things that they are talking about. i will just say, keep in mind, we have a progressive tax system. it is very progressive. the wealthy do pay a lot more in taxes than other folks. you may not think it is enough, but we have a very strongly progressive tax system. it is something to think about, especially if we are looking like we are going to have a bigger government. right now, we have a bigger government than we did before the pandemic. you have to think about what this means for financing. how are you going to finance it? are you going to do it in a way that is balanced, doesn't create inequality, and are you going to do it in a way that doesn't distort the economy? taxes aren't so much a punishment. it's what you have to have to

support federal spending. host: from mary in washington state, independent line. caller: good morning, pedro. good morning, mr. hall. i was just curious, since it is a federal budget, they get paid -- i mean, is there any way they could cut their salaries in half or take their salaries down to what the common man makes until they get this straightened out? because otherwise, it seems like , yeah, there is always conflict. i was just curious, how much does a congressman make? or congressperson, woman, whatever. guest: let me address your first part, because it is a really

good point. congress is set up as a process. they are a bunch of folks trying to enforce their own rule. they set up their own rules on the budget. the congressional budget office gives the state of the economy, which we just had come out. the president submits the budget , and congress reacts to it, coming up with their own budget proposal. they just dismiss them. there is no penalty for it. there is no talk about a better process that will force congress and the president to follow the rules. i don't think we need a new process, personally. i think we need to have incentives for them to actually follow a process and actually meet that. it's not because they are not doing their jobs. i think the big problem is, they are not working together.

if the democrats control the house, all the budget legislation is written by democrats. if the republicans control the house, all the budget legislation is written by republicans. there is no cooperation between the two. there is no common agreement. in fact, this budget is supposed to be voted on. congress is supposed to put together a budget, lay out the legislation, here is how we are going to spend money, and go. minority members never vote for it. there are literally zero minority votes on pieces of budget legislation. that is a real problem. that is part of why they can't cooperate. members of congress, i'm not really familiar. it's not a terribly outrageous amount. it is somewhere around 200,000 dollars per year. it is a pretty healthy salary. but they are not being made millionaires by their salaries.

i don't know a lot about members, about what kind of wealth and things they do besides they work for congress. but you are talking about something that is a real thing. what can congress do to constrain themselves? it's like if you are going on a diet. you know what you should do, but you can't make yourself do it. that's really kind of what their problem is. they need to think about how to get some more adult decisions on the budget made. host: our conversation with keith hall continues with mark in california, republican line. caller: good morning. thank you, c-span. thank you, mr. hall. as unlikely as it seems, i have the answer for illuminating our national debt and fiscal problem. that is to bring a complete and

utter end to the war on drugs. we currently have a huge national debt and we are spending billions and billions of dollars to incarcerate people who choose to use drugs. we have been trying to stop that for decades. it is an utter failure. all you have to do is watch a few episodes of cops to see that 85% of police enforcement goes toward trying to stop people from their free choice, using their free choice. it may be a bad choice, but if we redirected the dollars we are wasting on law enforcement trying to enforce the war on drugs, we would make back the billions of dollars that the drug cartels are making. we could offer high-quality rehab when people finally decide they made a bad choice and methodology, a bad life choice. we could stop incarcerating

people at $40,000 per year each for using drugs or selling drugs. host: that is mark in california. guest: like any other idea about the federal budget, there are parts of it that will give you side effects you may not like. doing something like stopping the war on drugs, this is where a place like the congressional budget office is really handy. they would take a look at this and tell you how much money is actually being spent, how to federal money is being spent. a lot of money is not federal, it is state and local. you have to keep in mind, you have other side effects from drug use. sometimes, it is crime and other things. you have to think through that whole effect. interestingly, when i was at the congressional budget office, we produced a report about how

money people are in jail. if you look at our labor force, it is a measurable part of our labor force. it is not tiny. they are not working because they are in jail. that is part of the cost of something like this. you have to think through what the pluses and minuses are. whether you get agreement on this, i don't know that you would, but it is a proposal that would have some budgetary impact. i'm not going to guess. host: you talked about earlier. the president is suspected to release the budget in early march. once that comes out and once republicans put their version out, what role does the cbo play and talk about the process there. guest: first of all, when the budget's omission comes from the president, cbo looks at it and writes another report for congress, saying here is what the president's proposal would actually cost.

the president is going to have its own version of that. sometimes it is close, sometimes it is not. then, cbo actually helps congress draft their budget legislation. they do a lot of the work. any piece of legislation that congress puts together, before it gets voted on, on the floor, the congressional budget office is supposed to look at it and write a short report, telling congress, here's what your legislation does, here's what it costs, here are the savings or cost. almost everything congress does with legislation is reviewed by cbo for budgetary impact. they are very busy during the season where congress is putting together their budget, because they also have these experts at cbo giving an objective view on what they are doing. there is a fair amount of

back-and-forth between cbo analysts and congressional committees that are thinking about legislation. they talk back and forth. the committee sometime says to cbo, if we did this, what do you think would be the impact on the budget? and cbo gives informal advice, not on whether or not to do it, but what the budgetary cost of that is, so once they actually publicly produce legislation, cbo probably produces a report on that legislation. if you look on their website, they have got hundreds. when i was there, we were up to 1000 reports on pieces of legislation. they are very busy during the whole process on the budget. host: let's hear from james in wisconsin, independent line. caller: yes, sir. first of all, good morning. i would like to agree with the gentleman from california about the drug thing. we should legalize that with

medical oversight. that definitely would save a lot of money. i want to ask a question. who do we owe this $30 trillion to? who is holding our 10? -- tab? guest: while, most of it is from the public. it could be individuals, it is companies. some have retirement accounts invested in these bonds that the government is issuing. and as i mentioned, a lot of them are held by foreign countries. china and japan. the bonds are around. a lot of them are held by the federal reserve, who bought these bonds up to try to keep interest rates low. this is part of the challenge of borrowing so much money. the federal reserve has got to print some money up and by these bonds up to maintain these lower

interest rates. it is a challenge for them. the federal reserve wasn't buying some of these, we would have even bigger interest rates than we have right now. it creates a problem and you have to find people to buy these. and it creates a problem because the fed has to buy some of these up, to. -- too. higher interest rates make it hard for private companies. they have to pay higher interest rates when they borrow, too. it is something called "crowding out." the government borrows an excessive amount of money, interest rates are higher, it makes it harder for companies to borrow money. this is where you get slower economic growth in the coming decades, if this continues. host: how does inflation impact the creation and execution of a budget? guest: inflation comes from over

stimulus. for example, in 2022, the pandemic was over. the recession from the pandemic was over. yet, we still borrowed a ton of money. we still borrowed $1.4 trillion. this creates stimulus in the economy and it pushes overheating in the economy. this may have been in major cause -- in my opinion, it is a major cause, and not everyone agrees with me -- but this may be a major cause of why we have inflation right now. we overspent through the federal government and it has created this extra pressure, where demand -- imagine supply and demand curves. demand is just too high with the federal government borrowing so much money. it is -- it creates inflationary pressure. this is really how the fed

works, too. the fed raises and lowers interest rates to increase demand or reduce demand with a higher interest rate. what's happening now is demand is too strong and the federal reserve is trying to slow down consumers, slow down spending. they are raising interest rates and making it harder for you to buy cars and houses, etc. then, of course, he had the government coming in and spending a great deal of money that they borrowed from, that creates additional pressure. it is not just spending, it is lowering taxes. it creates the same sort of inflationary picture. to be honest, part of what the federal reserve is dealing with right now, raising interest rates, is they are countering inflation, but also countering inflationary pressures from over borrowing by the federal government. host: a couple of questions coming in off twitter. you talked about the tax cuts

that were imposed during the trump administration. have you ever brought up saying that the tax cuts will expire in a couple years, but the corporate tax cuts will not expire? guest: some of them will expire. some of them are expensing on capital investments, some of them are research. some of those are expiring as well. but income taxes are so much bigger than corporate taxes or other things. that's where a lot of the effect comes, for what that is worth. and we are talking about, all told, a couple trillion dollars of tax reductions that will go away. we will have an increase in taxes. you will definitely see it in your individual income taxes, depending upon how much you pay. host: another viewer is asking

about cbo itself. have projections always been accurate or inaccurate? guest: any type of projection has error in it. when the cbo projects the budget, the first thing they have to forecast is the economy. how is economic growth going to look going forward? right now, there is a great deal of uncertainty, because they know we are in a period where there is heightened uncertainty about a recession, so they have got to forecast the economy. then, on top of that, they then have to forecast the budget, given what tax revenues will be, would spending revenues will be from the economy. i think they are remarkably accurate. the following year, their accuracy is something within 2% of the overall number. remarkably accurate. there will be instances where they are wrong, because it was hard to forecast. but actually, they do remarkably

well. one of the things they do is make their work public. that was a big push and continues to be a big push for cbo, to be as transparent as possible, so that if you don't like the budget forecast, you can complain about it. you can get some feedback. but they are actually remarkably accurate, in my opinion. host: in texas, democrats line, we will hear from doug. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i would like to ask mr. hall his thoughts on lifting the cap on social security and how much that would help the problem. i just don't feel most americans understand that that cap is $162,000. based on many peoples income, 100% tax social security and people make above that aren't getting that. how much would that help the problem? guest: it actually would help

the problem some. it's not going to solve anything, but it is big enough that it would make a difference. it goes not so much to the debt right now, because that has nothing to do with social security or the trust funds right now. it is going to come about. within the next five to 10 years, a bunch of these big trust funds are going to go insolvent. they are not going to have enough money. the term is "tax max." if you raise the maximum tax for social security, it would raise income more. it would impact the money dedicated to the social security fund. it is not going to solve it, but it is a legitimate consideration. it would really save some money. of course, something needs to be done. the tax is collected into the

trust fund -- the taxes elected into the trust fund are not enough, even right now, to pay out benefits. you need to cut benefits or raise taxes, or get money from somewhere to fix this. that is the solution. one of the things cbo does, which i recommend if you are really bored, is they give options to reduce the deficit. it is an annual publication they publish every two years. it is a big book of 114 or 115 different things congress could do to either lower spending, raise taxes, to help reduce the deficit. that option, raising the tax max is right in there. i don't know the numbers offhand, but it will tell you exactly how much money you would save if you did that, according to cbo's estimate. he had this nice little cheat sheet that will tell you some of the things you can do to save money, and how much it will save. if nothing else, it keeps you

realistic. a lot of times, people, including members of congress, think a fairly small change will be enough to solve the problem. this book tells you exactly how much benefit it will be to the budget. it brings them down to earth to something realistic. that is a real proposal. host: earlier this month, mr. hall, there was a new york times story taking a look at the topic of earmarks and how republicans and democrats have both use those to their advantage. how have they impacted budgets? guest: we haven't had that kind of earmark for a while. but there is something called dedicated funding. it is not exactly an earmark like you are thinking about. for example, the payroll tax that we all pay. that is a dedicated fund. in a sense, that is an earmark. your payroll taxes are there and they are supposed to go to the

social security trust fund and disability trust fund. there is this dedicated finding that is important, because it is finding it dedicated to particular programs. congress is trying to flight that these are important. that is what these funds are for. personally, i don't think dedicated funds are a bad thing. i just think we need to keep better track of what we have already committed to with our revenue, what is available for congress to spend with their discretionary spending. because when they get to this annual process of discretionary spending, they don't have all that revenue. some of that revenue is already dedicated. so, they have only got a small piece of that that should be available for discretionary spending, and they just outspend that by a ridiculous amount. host: a few more minutes with our guest. john in california, republican line. keep hall is the guest.

he is the former director of the cbo. john from california, go ahead. caller: good morning, c-span. this probably is one of the best balanced segments i have seen on c-span in a long time. he knows his stuff and he is not a left-wing loon most of your guests are. i keep hearing about tax cuts for the rich. that is a good democrat talking point. isn't it true that every time there has been a significant tax cut that revenue to the government has gone up? also, i keep hearing about cutting social security. nobody is going to cut social security. you are going to get your check. if you keep spending money and not borrowing the money to do it, your social security check probably isn't going to be worth much. one of the things of flagrant overspending is the $100,000

biden proposed to the young people to vote for him. there are all kinds of programs through the government that can be trimmed back or cut. i think social security is safe, except there may come a time where somebody worth several million dollars per year probably won't get there social security. but the idea that we are going to cut social security. host: ok, john, we will live it there. -- we will leave it there appeared you put a lot out for our guest. mr. hall, go ahead. guest: for the tax cuts, i was at the congressional office when the budget proposal came out for the 2016 bill. cutting taxes increases economic growth.

that is part of the cost of having a big government. we have to raise taxes and slow growth some. the trouble is, it doesn't slow it a lot. for example, the tax cuts, lower tax revenues, but stronger economic growth raises back up. if it fully paid for itself, economic growth would have replaced 100% of the tax cuts. it really only replaced about 30%. that is what the research says. again, tax cuts to increase growth, but not so much that tax revenue goes up. that just doesn't happen that way. a democratic version of that is sometimes looking at infrastructure investment. they think, ok, you spend money in infrastructure, growth, etc. increases productivity, you get

stronger economic growth. maybe a little bit. not nearly strong enough growth that infrastructure pays for itself. you have the republican myth and the democratic myth there together. these cuts don't pay for themselves. only about 30% this latest round. infrastructure doesn't pay for itself. this is where you have a place like cbo actually tell you what the research says, with the evidence really is. social security, what you are talking about with the means testing, that is a realistic option. that is really part of it. i am no expert in politics, but i think it will be very hard to have a cut in benefits, major benefits, for people like me. i paid my payroll taxes for decades. i want my social security money when i am ready to retire. there's an issue here, of

course, with fairness if you're going to do something like that. means testing is one of the options. there are other things that can directly affect that. student loans. first of all, the supreme court may overrule this, because the president did not take this to the budget process at all. this is a presidential signature. it is controversial as to whether it is possible or not. if you go through with this forgiveness, you're going to cost hundreds of billions of dollars to the budget. this forgiveness is a major budget expense. i think the latest estimate i've seen from cbo is something like $300 billion. that will be the cost of this student loan forgiveness. we cannot forget this is not free. just forgiving a loan has a budgetary impact and it is a

significant one. again, we will see if that holds. host: from catherine in illinois, democrats line. you are the last call. good morning. caller: that morning. my comment is, and if you could address this, what is the real impact of the covid health care issue? and related to the cost of it and also on the workforce, as to how covid affected the number of people that can no longer work because of long-term covid? thank you and i have really enjoyed this program. guest: thank you. certainly, the covid experience was a really incredible impact on the federal budget. we spent an extra six or 7 trillion -- $6 trillion or $7 trillion extra in those two

years, 2020 and 2021. we had a major impact. we have borrowed a lot of money, spent a lot of money on this. that is not going away, all that spending. a lot of the spending was just trying to stimulate things. frankly, i got annoyed because a lot of the standing had nothing to do with covid, but they put into covid bills. it is a bit of a political trick. if you look at the extra spendings due to covid from the federal government, it was quite large, trillions of dollars. part of the impact, you are right, are the rules you propose that affected the labor market. i have not really taken the time to look at this analysis of what the cost was of this, but it certainly lowered the labor force, labor force a lot of people dropped out of

the labor force. i am not sure if they are back. surely it was a problem with this pandemic, some people have not gone back to the labor force. that is a significant concern. people are disengaged from the labor force who were not before, that is one million people. that is an important number of people. you want stronger economic growth. going forward, we will see with the permanent impact of this was, we will get a chance to see what labor force participation we have, whether that has taken a hit because of the pandemic. host: you can see our guests work online, keith hall is the distinguished visiting fellow. also the former director of the congressional budget office to start of the week long look at

spending, budgets and the u.s. fiscal condition. thanks for giving us your time. guest: i enjoyed it. host: on this presidents' day, we will spend the next hour taking a look at the impact of abraham lincoln with john cribb, author of the rail splitter and old abe, a discussion on abraham lincoln and his impact on the presidency when washington journal continues. ♪ >> this presidents' day weekend, go to c-span's american presidents website. your guide to our nations commanders and she from george washington to joe biden. find short biographies, video resources, life fas and rich images that tell the stories of their lives and presidencies, all in one easy to browse website. visit c-span.org this weekend.

>> best story it has been writing about foreign affairs for most of his 64 years. the first book in his planned trilogy on american foreign policy was published in 2006 and focused on u.s. history before the founding, up to the spanish-american war. she has just completed the second book in the trilogy, the ghost at the feast, america and the collapse of the world order, 1900 to 1941. robert kagan writes americans have complex attitudes toward morality and power, they have a sense of distinctiveness and remoteness in a highly contested political system. >> on this episode of book notes plus, available on the c-span now app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: on this president's day, john cribb joins us, historian and author of two books, historical novels looking at abraham lincoln. thanks for giving us your time. guest: thanks for having me, i appreciate it. happy president's day. host: tell us about the books and why the format of historical fiction and the focus on abraham lincoln. guest: there are historical novels, the one just out is called rail splitter and tells the story of lincoln's life before he was president, which i think is the most fascinating part of his life. it begins with him as a teenager on the indiana frontier, then you're at his side every page as he makes his way from the woods of indiana to the prairies of illinois, then the threshold of

the white house. it ends with 1858, when he is a middle-aged man. the other novel, old abe which came a couple years ago, it takes you through the last five years of lincoln's life and presidency. you are at his side every page as he goes to the white house years. big iconic events like the gettysburg address, the lincoln douglas debates. i think it really brings him alive, a lot of people do not know that twice he built rafts and rafted down the mississippi river. when he was president, the white house tables caught on fire and he ran outside, tried to force his way through the blazing inferno because pet goats and

ponies were in there and he wanted to get them out. i wrote these books as historical novels, because i want to try to bring lincoln alive. fiction can do that in ways that nonfiction can't. i worked hard for accurate betrayals of lincoln, there is a date at the top of each chapter to let you know when the events happened. the characters were real people, mary and their boys, frederick douglass, people like that. my interest in lincoln dates back to when i was a young boy, my mother read books to us, like parents are supposed to do. it was a series, abe lincoln, frontier boy. it is stories of lincoln living in a log cabin on the front

tier, it really grabbed my imagination. i've been a fan of lincoln a long time, he is one of the greatest american figures and heroes. that is why i focused on him. host: was there a certain mindset you had when going into research and writing as you did it, did anything change? guest: certainly discovered a lot about lincoln. i learned as i went along. i spent more time than i'd like to admit researching this, i love the research. lincoln, when he starts out, he is just like anybody else. the rail splitter, as a teenager, he is asking questions like where my going to live, what am i going to do with my life? it is fascinating to watch, as

he grows and matures, he evolves somebody -- he describes himself as a piece of floating driftwood. often without direction. he gradually comes to catch himself and give himself to a cause that is much greater than himself, that is the cause of freedom and equality. he gives his life for those causes. that metamorphosis is a fascinating thing to watch. host: when you talk about the desires for freedom and desire to work on that front, would you say that came from his formative years? political career? how did that manifest during its lifetime -- his lifetime? guest: i think he soaked up a love for the founding principles and for country, growing up on

the frontier. even the books were hard to come by on the frontier, he soaks the principles up through reading. also through life on the frontier, the time and particular places where lincoln grew up, life was hard. there is no doubt about it. by and large, those people were free to make their way in life as best they could. this is what lincoln does, this is one reason he cherishes freedom so much. he was free to do that. it is a big reason he comes to hate slavery so much. lincoln knows robbing people of their freedom destroys people's chance to rise in the world, better their conditions, make a

better life for themselves as he did. host: john cribb is our guest, the author of two historical novels that take a look at the life of abraham lincoln. if you want to ask questions about lincoln, the impact he had on the presidency, you can call the lines. eastern and central time zones, it is (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific, (202) 748-8001, if you want to text us thoughts on abraham lincoln, you can do that at (202) 748-8003. you talked about freedom. wide did finders like himself -- why did founders like himself allow slavery? guest: lincoln was always -- he hated slavery. if slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.

he described himself as antislavery for as long as he could remember. he was an antislavery man as opposed to an abolitionist, that is an important distinction. abolitionists felt slavery needed to be ended right away, just cut off. the antislavery people did not like slavery, but they believed if it could be contained in the south, it was going to go away. for a variety of reasons. they were wanting to move west, the idea was if you can make sure it did not spread out of the south, it was going to die off. that is how lincoln goes into the war, if we keep it contained to the south, slavery will go away. if we try to do away with it right away, it will be such a giant economic and social

disruption, it will do more harm than good. that was their attitude. as the war began, he shifts his mind and comes to decide the ending slavery has got to be part of any piece that is going to resolve. he makes that a condition of the piece the only way to end this war is to end slavery. the founders, lincoln's view was the founders it was too big a job for them to try to break away from the most powerful country or one of the most powerful countries in the world, starting a whole new country and end slavery all at one time. lincoln explained with the founders did was lay down a promise in the declaration of

independence, promises they are all created equal and have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. once that was lay down, the founders knew it was going to happen. it took much longer than anybody wanted, it was a bloody struggle. that is what lincoln was fighting for, to redeem that promise. host: if lincoln were here today, the op-ed reads, the progress of freedom and equality and sometimes taken far too long. in many ways, the country has met the world and bringing rights and opportunities to millions. can you elaborate? guest: lincoln grew up in a time , for the full history of the world, pretty much, people did not have a lot of opportunity. most people stayed in the

socioeconomic spread they were born into. the idea of a middle-class is barely beginning to emerge. lincoln took advantage of that, he was great at seizing opportunities and challenges. that is what he wanted to get off the farm, even though his father thought he should be a farmer. compared to today, when lincoln was around, there were huge parts of the population -- african-americans especially and women, who had little opportunities available. i think if lincoln came back today and saw this country, he would say more opportunities available to poor people than ever before. i think he would be amazed by the progress we have made. not to say we are through with that kind of progress, there is always work to be done. but i think he be blown away.

host: this is from catherine in virginia, democrats line. you are on. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you, both the rail splitter and old abe are terrific contributions for today's readers, they are wonderful books. i'm interested in hearing from you about the biggest insight you had as to the type of education he had and how it might impact today's educational system. particularly as it relates to how informed his views and helped deliberate many. guest: that is a great question. thank you. lincoln, he had very little formal education, even though he

loved learning. his father sent him to school by littles, a little here and a little there. that added up to less than one euro formal schooling, -- less than one year of formal schooling. when he was young, he said my best friend is a man who can get me a book. he would walk miles through the woods just to lay hands on a book if he could. he is largely self-taught, throughout his life. one time, he was filling out forms, he put defective was the way he described it. he was self-taught over and over again.

he was an attorney, that's how he made his living. when he made up his mind to try to be an attorney, he was hesitant about it because he knew he had so little formal schooling. people in this frontier village where he was living have memories of lincoln sitting on tree stumps, logs, buried in this book and others, studying away until he turns himself into a lawyer. his education, he is largely self-taught. i think there are valuable lessons about his education. lincoln was raised with the idea that hard work is behind a lot of education, that is what it takes.

the books he read led him to the idea -- the founding principles of this country. lincoln's favorite founding document was the declaration of independence, he referred to it over and over again throughout his presidency. in many ways, he was steeped in this nation's founding principles. i think that is one reason he was so devoted to them, growing up on the wild frontier, he was exposed to them. i think that is something we need to keep in mind as we think about how generations are educated. host: jim from ohio, you are next up. caller: first of all, thank you for letting me speak with you.

the book the rail splitter, i'm incredibly interested. i have always been all about abraham lincoln. the thing of it is, i am curious about the influence henry clay made upon lincoln. also the todd family that were involved with henry clay. i go deeper than that, you mention the fact the declaration of independence, in the interest abraham lincoln had in jefferson. with that, there is one person that goes to all of those threads, a man who educated jefferson and educated henry clay. with the way that lincoln read

all the time, all these things are linked about being against slavery -- host: you are breaking up a little, we got your point. guest: thank you for the call, you are right. henry clay, a kentucky statesman , was lincoln's ideal of a statesman. out on the frontier where he grew up, people were generally jackson men or claim in -- clay men, they were devoted to jackson or clay. jackson generally represented democrats and clay generally represented the wiggs, -- mary todd lincoln grew up pretty much down the road from henry clay,

his plantation and actually -- in ashland on the south of lexington. she knew him growing up, she used to sit in his lap when she was a girl and talk to him about how he would be president someday. when mary and abraham lincoln first met in springfield illinois, this is one of the things that blew lincoln away about mary todd. she knew henry clay, his political hero. clay ran for president several times and never made it, but lincoln was a great admirer of clay, he admired clay. it was the idea money should be put into projects like roads and canals and eventually railroads to help infrastructure, the same

thing we hear about today. lincoln felt, as someone from a very rough frontier, he felt that was an important development of the west. it is one big reason he stuck with the whig party most of his political life and left it because he realized it was coming to an end, and joined the republican party and runs as a republican. when he runs for the senate, he is a republican. but the caller is right, henry clay was one of lincoln's heroes , somebody that shaped his views and values. host: what about frederick douglass? guest: that is another interesting relationship, frederick douglass was one of the courageous orators in this country's history, and a great

abolitionist. really one of the greatest statesmen i think this country has ever known. lincoln comes to know him during the civil war, but had never met him before he was president. one of the chapters in my book recounts a visit frederick douglass makes to the white house during the civil war, when he comes to see lincoln. douglas has been trying to raise black troops, which is becoming critical for the northern war effort. he comes to gently chide lincoln and tell him look, i am having trouble doing this because you are not paying these african-american soldiers the same as we are paying white soldiers and we are not promoting them. lincoln knows that douglas is

right, he basically says to have some patience and bear with me, these things take time. i think they have great admiration for each other, though douglas was often frustrated. he hopes lincoln would move faster at times, lincoln is trying with a lot of different factions. there is another chapter -- these are all true stories, lincoln gives his second inaugural address and when it is over, there's a party in the white house. douglas comes to the white house. at first, they will not let him in because he is black. someone gets word that douglas is trying to come in and lincoln says, let him in. as douglass enters the room, he says loud enough here comes my

friend douglas. he asked douglas, what did you think of my speech? he said you do not need to know what i think of it, he said i want to know you think of it. he said mr. president, that is a sacred effort. they come to have a great deal of respect for each other. host: in nashville, tennessee. this is tom. caller: i have read quite a bit about lincoln, did it ever way on him the number of americans killed in the war effort on both sides? you never get too much of a perspective about the 8% or 9% of the population that actually died due to the war, whether they were shot, killed, maimed. did that bother him at 2 million

americans on both sides would probably be killed nobody ever talks about that much. guest: i go into that in the second of the two novels. absolutely it weighed on him. if you look at the photographs of lincoln as the presidency went on, all presidents age during their time in office. it is such a big job. we always have to remember that, these people that step into the office have a lot on their shoulders. but he really aged. there is one chapter -- this is historical fiction, i really tried to make it accurate, based it on things that actually happened.

when secretary stanton comes to lincoln with the latest casualty reports, lincoln pours over more than once, he weeps over the reports. he says i would change places with any of these boys at any moment. the secretary says may be that is why god chose you to be the nation. -- be the one to lead the nation. lincoln had a melancholy side, he looks sad. one reason is he went through that war. one thing he and mary lincoln did was go to hospitals to try to comfort the soldiers as much as he could.

he was well aware of what was happening. washington, d.c. pretty much turned into a giant hospital, casualties just kept pouring in. lincoln makes the decision that the only way to end the war is total war, the union has more men to lose than the south. they had to keep throwing men against the southern lines, they were going to lose a lot of men but the southerners would lose them, too. they were going to wear down faster. the horrible decision you have to make -- that was his approach, too. it was a terrible calculation to have to make, but that is the calculation they made.

it weighed heavily on him every single day of his presidency. host: here is the opinion of a viewer on twitter when it comes to abraham lincoln's approach to slavery. many politicians like lincoln were specifically opposed to the quote expansion of slavery and not the institution itself. they want to newly formed states and territories to be free from blacks because they wanted to retain political power. guest: i disagree with that. it is true going into the war, the expansion of slavery. that is what triggered the civil war. when she writes he is against institution, that is wrong. there is no evidence. he is on record again and again, he died. he gave his life in the cause of getting rid of that institution. he got wind of the war and leading up to the war, the

thought was if you can keep in the south and do not let it get out of the south, it is going to die a natural death pretty quickly. the soil was being exhausted by cultivation, they did not keep finding new lands to farm. that was a big problem for slaveholders. it was not economically feasible system, compared to labor markets of capitalism. the idea to keep it contained in the south, do not let it spread to the union, that is what the lincoln douglas debate was about. once the war starts up, lincoln changed his mind and says, we are going to get rid of this. he issued the emancipation proclamation which was a wartime

measure to declare the slaves in the southern states were rebellion free. he worked hard to get the 13th amendment through both houses of congress, which would make slavery constitutionally impermissible. it would be outlawed forever. the assertion he was not against it is factually wrong. i know this is taught in some places these days, but it is simply wrong. historians who know a lot about lincoln and studied his life have said this is wrong, stop telling people this, and it persists. host: another viewer talks about the process of writing the book, asking the question with some much information seemingly already written for historical novels, how do you manage to

incorporate the fiction part in your books? guest: it is a great question. many of your viewers probably know there are a lot of books about lincoln out there. somebody several years ago tried to count all of the lincoln books, they got up to 15,000. i am not sure they got all of them, this was well over 10 years ago. i am guessing 20,000, 25,000. the overwhelming majority are not fiction, not that many novels, comparatively. there is a wealth of material about lincoln, his love life, lots to draw on. i spent a lot of time researching his life, somewhere between 250 and 300 books about lincoln.

these historical novels are rooted in the history itself. he is not chasing vampires were killing zombies or anything like that. a lot of the dialogue, i drew on primary source documents like memoirs and journals of different people who knew lincoln and recounted conversations with him, newspaper reports from the time, eyewitness accounts, that kind of thing. as to the characters walking on and off the pages are real people, like mary and the lincoln boys and his father and stepmother. later on during the presidential years, people like frederick douglass. but the gaps in details i am

filling in with my imagination, that is what makes it fiction. i've used my imagination to go in and tell a story, fill in the gaps. there are accurate betrayals of lincoln, they are historical fiction. the advantage is you get to bring characters alive, make him a walking, talking, breathing person. fiction can do that in ways nonfiction canned. the disadvantage is the reader is wondering, did that really happen. that is an inherent tension that you get between historical fiction and nonfiction. host: john cribb joins us for

this discussion, from florida this is mark. caller: thank you, good morning. i looked you up, we have many things in common. the one thing i am sure we have in common, we both like boiled peanuts. i grew up in central illinois, lincoln's so-called hometown even though he is not from springfield. my age, born in 58 come before springfield came touristic --which they've done a great job with the old neighborhood, i would ride my bike from one part of town, it was very peaceful. i had a connection to abraham lincoln, it drew me toward him. you being from spartanburg, i spent most of my time in the

marine corps in the south, voted for president carter. my question to you would be two questions, one is if you could explain to us abraham lincoln's take on slavery maybe goes back to his childhood as a child labor working for his father, john i believe, on the farm, and being sympathetic to the slaves from his own childhood experiences, looking at them and not seeing much difference. on the river just south of him in indiana. also, if you could explain as he becomes a lawyer, many americans think lawyers are one way or another. he took many cases for individual farmers against big riverboat companies, for presenting the small people. for the gentleman from

tennessee, abraham lincoln had much anguish for all soldiers lives, whether they were from the north or the south. guest: what a wonderful call. people who have not been to springfield, it is a wonderful place to visit. they do a great job with the presidential museum, there is a great place not far from springfield to the northwest, frontier village where lincoln spent about six years of his young life, very formative years. but regarding the question about slavery going back to his early childhood, that is right. there is one theory that lincoln, one reason he hated slavery was -- slave is way too

strong of a word, but his father could be hard sometimes. lincoln grew up just working and working, doing what his dad told him to do. lincoln did not like farm work. but his father thought he should be a farmer, because his father did not have a lot of education himself. his idea of success was bound up in owning land, working land. he looked at this tall, strong young guy and thought you were blowing it by sitting around wanting to read books on tree stumps. he thought that was being lazy, this caused a real tension with lincoln and his dad. one reason lincoln was so against slavery was he himself

grew up with a life of toil he did not want to be doing. i should note that lincoln, both his parents were antislavery. the church he grew up in was against the idea of slavery. so all of these things come together to form his opinions on these things. i've probably forgotten because i've gone on. host: the viewer talked about his defense of smaller farmers against larger corporations. guest: yes. lincoln really had a general practice of the law, he represented all kinds of people and parties. but he did a lot of his litigation representing small

farmers, that is what most people were back then. cases like stolen hogs and maybe somebody thought horses got into their cornfield and knock down too much. this is one thing that made lincoln such a man of the people. one reason he liked being a lawyer was it put him in touch with so many people. by the time he ran for president , he knew hundreds of not thousands of people across illinois, that part of the country, largely because of his legal practice. in the spring and fall, lincoln would go out for several weeks at a time on the old circuit, which covered a big clump of illinois. he would go from court has to courthouse town.

just put him in touch with an incredible number of people. friends waiting for him, this is one reason lincoln has such a connection with the american people. he came to have a great sense of the spirit and capacity and limitations of america, i think largely because he was so in touch with them. he loved to stay in touch with people, he famously opened up the door of his office whenever he could, let people come in and visit. he would tell them jokes and stories, but yes. lincoln the lawyer is an important part of who he was.

just to go back to the last point about how he felt about anguish, there is a great story, one of my favorites about lincoln takes place toward the end of the war. at the end of the civil war, the army established a huge supply base at city point, virginia, where the rivers come together. it was to supply the union army during petersburg and all up and down through virginia. it was a big complex. part of that complex was a field hospital. rows of tents, inside the tents they could treat the injured and

sick soldiers, up to 10,000 a time. so lincoln went down to city point at the end of the war with grant and other generals. he went over to visit the wounded soldiers, he liked to do that. he would walk down the rows, shaking hands with soldiers and telling them he hoped they would be well soon and back home with their families. one time, he was walking toward a group of tents off to the side and a young union officer saw him and said, you do not want to go over there. lincoln said why not, he said that is where the injured rebel soldiers are. these were the confederates they picked up on the battlefield, they were treating them. injured rebel soldiers. lincoln says, that is exactly where i want to go.

he starts walking down the rows of cots, greeting the soldiers and shaking hands with them. i am sure they are surprised to see the president of the united states, but he knew them as fellow americans. he walked up to one fellow from south carolina, who was shot in both hips and had his arms folded across his chest. he frowned at him, he scowled and said mr. president, i am a confederate colonel who fought the last four years with every fiber of my being. lincoln said i understand, but i want you to get well and be back with your family. i want this were to be over and i hope you will not refuse to shake my hand. all the anger and hostility drained, he said i guess i will shake your hand.

they shake hands and lincoln goes on down the row of cots. this is lincoln at his finest, reaching out a hand in fellowship, brotherly love in the midst of this awful conflict . that is the kind of thing we need to remember, great presidents and great heroes on days like this. host: if you are asked about his short stint in congress and why he did not get reelected. guest: he always intended to have one term in congress. lincoln was a whig at that point and they were using something called the rotation system, the sea that represented springfield, illinois was the only safe seat at the time.

there are lots of people that seat. so lincoln's friends and colleagues, like his first law partner and edward baker, they each served one term, they were taking turns. so lincoln went in thinking he would just served one term, that would be a steppingstone. unfortunately, the democrats won the seat after lincoln got there and a lot of whigs were mad because lincoln spoke out against the war with mexico. he challenged president polk about it. lincoln feared that war had been fought, in part, just to get new

slave territory. he gave a speech or two in congress about this, the did not go well with a lot of people. a lot of people from illinois, they fought and died in the war. she finishes that term, there is another election, the democrats take the seat. it is not glorious in terms of lincoln and when he finishes that term, he went back to springfield thinking maybe his days as an office holder and politician are done. he keeps ahead in politics, but he is out of office for several years until he runs for the senate again in 1854, 1855. host: michael in boston, independent. caller: good morning, hope my

voice is coming in ok. this is a subject that i love, i am a u.s. descendant black americans citizen, chases and history -- traces ancestry back to southern slavery. what i would like to say is the civil war was about disbanding into areas like texas, they wanted to have a slavery empire. it was not so much that it was going to die out, that is an opinion, it was going to die out. it was that the confederates had means to expand. the reason the war happened is they did nothing, they wanted to fight over the right to expand into texas. the other thing i want to say is because black men had fought in the war of 1812, they were

offered a deal. freedom for the fight. by the early 1860's, frederick douglass knew that they did not want black men fighting in the war, this could be taken away. that was another issue, i am definitely a nonfiction fan. we have such different opinions. i give the black people way more agency than the author does, i am an admirer of lincoln. lincoln was a republican and a confederate -- the confederates were democrats. in 1864, they became republicans. the system is still rigged. i think if lincoln saw the present day, he would be

appalled at the state of the descendants of the target of those statutes. he would be appalled, where is you to think there is progress, as an african-american, black american, i want to say that is debatable. there are numbers, numbers don't lie. host: we will leave it there, let guest respond. guest: on the original point, i am not sure we disagree on that. that is correct, that is what triggered the civil war was the argument over whether slavery would be allowed to expand out of the south. people like lincoln were saying if slavery is allowed to expand out of the south, then it is over.

there is no end to it. lincoln worried if it got out of the south into the western states coming into the union, it michael back up to the north, where it had been at one point. that was the rub going into the civil war, that question of whether slavery would be allowed to expand. how long it would take to die out if it had been contained to the south is anybody's guess, historians have debated that. lincoln believed it would happen quickly. after the debate, he was talking to a friend of his. talking about the lincoln douglas debates, during the senate race of 1858 with stephen

douglas. lincoln lost that race for the senate in the end, he said i am glad we had those debates, they did a lot of good. we taught thousands of people to hate slavery, people who had never given it a thought before, we taught them to hate it. he said slavery is doomed, that was only a matter of short time. lincoln i believed think it would not take that long. but that is a question we will never be able to resolve. i will respectfully disagree, i think opportunities -- if you look at the historical record, opportunities for all americans today are so much richer and more vast than they were back in lincoln's time, particularly if

you look african-americans and women, groups like that. i think there's been tremendous progress made. to the net to deny that is a disservice to our country. host: mary, you are on. caller: i hope that you will allow me to finish saying what i'm going to say. mr. cribb, i do not know if you know this or not. the whole truth about slavery is not being told and that is not taught. democrats tried to keep it hidden. i am one of those people that love to read, and i love to read history i was a democrat up until 2008, but i'm going to tell you something.

i start hearing things i've never heard before, i read the story about mr. douglas, harriet tubman. what i want to tell you -- and only you, all the people listening, many black people -- i read the book with the names of how many slaves they owned. a lot of them have been slaves themselves. not only that. people always try to come out -- i will put it like this. they try to make white people pay for something now that they had nothing to do with. what gets me -- all like that. host: what specifically would you like the guest to address?

caller: i want to say this. not only did like people owned slaves, american indians owned them, too. guest: the caller is correct, there was some black ownership of slaves. so that is correct. of course, mostly white people owning slaves. but she is correct, some of that. i can hear her loud and clear. i think the main point to remember, lincoln said if slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. it was morally wrong, he said. he said again and again. lincoln, his touchstone was the declaration of independence, that was his favorite founding

document. he believed we were all created equal and have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. that is the ideal he wanted the country to live up to. lord knows it has taken this country longer than we wanted to reach those ideals. that is what lincoln wanted, i think that is a goal we all share. even though we sometimes disagree on how to get there, those ideals in the declaration of independence that lincoln gave his life for, lincoln called that the electric cord that makes us all americans. that is an important thing to remember on days like today. host: virginia, democrats line. caller: good morning.

i was just wondering what the author has to say about a letter i believe lincoln wrote to some journalists. if he could win the war without a single slave, he would do that, too. i thought about that when you said if slavery was the end, it would wreck the american economy. capitalism is still in effect today -- i was just wondering what he thought about that. if he had kept the union intact

with slaves, he could have done that. his only goal was to keep slavery -- he wanted to keep the union. slavery was going to die a death if it was contained in the south , i do not understand. i did not understand how it could have a natural death. guest: perhaps natural death is not the way to put it. i think they met without war -- meant without war, it would die out with the economic system. that was the thought. because of the way cotton cultivation exhausted the soil,

it was comparable to labor -- free labor -- free labor markets of the north. regarding the question about the letter, it was in response to an editorial that appeared in a new york newspaper that was written asking lincoln to go ahead and declare the slaves in the south free. to issue the emancipation proclamation. this came in 1862. lincoln wrote back a basically open letter to be published in newspapers. the argument he is making is he's got to but the union first because that is the only way to preserve the principles of freedom that are going to do the slaves any good. thing about it this way. if the union is not saved, if

the south is allowed to go on and acquire more land and all of that stuff, that will not do the slaves any good. lincoln was insisting preserving the union and founding principles has to come first. if we are going to have a country where people are going to be free. what lincoln was not telling people when he wrote the letter was he had already drafted the emancipation he was waiting for the right time. he was waiting for the north to win a battle so he could issue a time when -- from a position of strength. that came after september 1862. when he wrote that letter, he already had the

emancipation written. he was trying to explain to the american people why he was pursuing the particular course he was. he knew when he wrote the letter, slavery was dead. a novel he has also written the book. host: john cribb joining us on this president's day. thanks for giving us this time. we thank you for joining us on this president's day. there's a lot of programming on c-span and our sister network, american tv. if you are interested in presidential history, you can consult those resources. that is it for our program. another "washington journal" comes your way tomorrow

morning. we will see you then. [captioning performed by the national captioning instut which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government funded by these television news and more, included comcast. >> comcast is partnering with 1000 can create wi-fi enabled listings so students from low income families can get what they needed. comcast supports c-span come along with these television writers give you a front row at democracy. >> on this present weekend, go to c-span's americ presidents -- on this presidents day weekend, c-span's american

presiden find rich images that tell the stories of their lives and presidency. >> i know what i am fit for. i am not fit to be president. >> despite these words, the seventh president was elected to two terms, first in 1828 and in 1832. in fact, people go so excited on andrews jackson's first inauguration day they converted on the white house to celebrate was born in the border of the carolinas on march for the, 1760 seven and named andrew after his father. he was considered pug nations. he was quick to fight those who made fun of his habits.

he never backed off from a duel. in one incident, he killed a man who slandered his wife. he walked around with two bullets lodged in his body from two separate occasions. he was a fair skinned and had a -- face. he had unruly auburn hair, penetrating blue eyes. eight notorious heavy drinker and gambler -- gambler, he loved women and they left him back. he exuded a presence that cannot be described, except to say that he was most captivating. he bred horses and smoked a corncob pipe and loved to death. he owned over 100 slaves, most of his from his mentation in tennessee. along the way, he acquired the

from troops who admired the toughness he in did during the vallow -- battle of new orleans. thomas jefferson called him a dangerous man. john quincy adams once said jackson was a bar. who could not write a -- barbarian who cannot write a sentence of grammar and could hardly build his own name. jackson's defender described him as a man of intelligence, and one of those prompt frank hart and souls i love to meet. in his mid-20's, he met and fell in love with his landlord's divorced daughter. while rachel was described later in life as a doubt a pipe, she was considered full and popular. she and jackson married in 1790 one and later i got a son, --

and later adopted a son. they learn her divorce had not been finalized. despite their legal remarriage in 1794, the couple was greatly ostracized in circles in the year followed. the scandals surrounded their marriage provided -- for local opponents during his first campaign. when his wife died, jackson blamed them for her untimely death. jackson's on the first white house with running water, the first president to be centered following the bank of the united states controversy, and the presidential assassination attempt. his vice president wasn't john calhoun feared after a falling out, martin --, after a falling out, martin.

he died on june 8, 18 45 at the age of 78. this house servants was seven as he augured his -- was saddened as he -- his own words. >> this presidents' day weekend, go to c-span americans presidents websites, your guide to our nations commander-in-chief from george washington to joe biden. find for your resources come tells the story of thects which presidency. visit c-span.org/presidents this presidents' day weekend. >> president biden