>> "washington journal" continues. host: our guest is journalist and podcaster toure. you can see his work on the thegrio.com. what is thegrio? guest: thegrio is a black media network. there is pnot just thec power. to talk about america from our perspective. host: what is your perspective at thegrio? >> caller: -- i write -- guest: i write about a variety of things. i am working on a podcast where we talk about songs of different

decades and the political ramifications and meanings inside those songs. i can also talk about politics, culture, some new form of racism we are seeing. i might write about rihanna's super bowl performance. it can be anything that much matter to black americans. >> host: -- host: all of those topics would make a great segment on "washington journal." you have podcasted about what it means to be black in america today. we are halfway through black history month. what to think about the debates we are having in this country about teaching like history in high schools and colleges. guest: it is quite disappointing. i was an african-american studies major at emory university and long time ago. learning about my history and african-americans' part in that

history gave me a sense of self, a grounding in my history in this country. 's give masons of purpose about what i want to do with my life and how i honor the people who sacrificed and died so i could have the opportunities i have. quite often this discussion about black history in the curriculum, people want to throw in critical race theory. most people using that phrase have no idea what it actually means. from the right, it is a dishonest conversation which transit is in them like -- should we teach a five euro white kids who hid themselves? literally nobody is talking about that. he doesn't care about the five-year-old or 10-year-old black child trying to figure out the world and does not understand the world. we do need to have any honest

understanding and reckoning in this country about what has happened and where we are now. racism is not just in the past. racism is not just things people say to each other or the feelings people have. is about systems that produce inequality in terms of policing and criminal justice in terms of where we live and how we are educated, in terms of wealth, how people are able to have and maintain wealth. some of these systems are invisible to many of us. it was only in the last year i really became fully aware of where we still are in terms of racism. a lot of times people come to assess the value of a home and give that value may be half or several hundred thousand dollars less in value for a black family vanna white family. there are a number of families

who have sued and got this overturned. there are thousands of families that did not know they could do that or did not have the money to sue. this is millions of dollars of value that has been taken out of the black community just from missy valuing the homes we have because we lived there. when you talk about how is it black america has not gotten further already, this is part of why. i am going to start writing about this that are today. there is a new podcast called out the best boys that breaks down how the federal government used people to infiltrate black lives matter protests and discredit the movement, to do things that are violent or not legal to make the movement look bad. we see this throughout history going back to the black panthers, malcolm x.

the government working against our attempts to become a more liberated and a deeper part of this country. how can you get to any sort of liberation with the government working against you? how to be understand how to move forward if we don't understand the things that have happened? host: let me give you a few numbers -- the phone numbers for viewers to join the conversation. republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. the house is coming in edited cook a.m. eastern. we will go there -- is coming in at 10:00 a.m. eastern. we will go there for less coverage. a headline from the washington post, "as red states target black history lessons, blue states are embracing them. the lessons children are receiving are diverging in this

country depending on where they live." what does that kind of approach lead us to in the decades to come? guest: it is hard to say where we are going to be in decades to come, but i don't think we should have two entirely separate nations within america where in some places people are taught that racism is real as slavery happened and systematic racism is real. test of the barriers of entry for black people are harder. another part of the country ignores that and does not teach that at all. inherently tedious to me why superiority. systemic racism does not exist, then how are we to explain that white people have almost all of the wealth and hold almost all of the positions of? power in? this country? what is the expression for that? is it that white people work harder, deserve these positions more?

my child's assistant racism does not exist -- if my child sent to me systemic racism does not exist, why isn't that almost all ceos of fortune 500s are white? why is it that 90% of all wealth is held in white hands? why are there so many black people in prison? if i do not say systemic racism is part of those things and the legacy of slavery is part of why those are true, that what i am -- then what am i talking about? the inherent superiority of white people? surely by now we know that white people are not inherently superior to black people. i would use dollar trap as a key for that case. host: this is governor ron desantis on why his estate education department boasts rejecting a proposal from the ap african studies program put together.

ron desantis from last month. [video clip] gov. desantis: the required teaching black history. this was a separate course for advanced placement credit and the issue was we have guidelines and standards in florida. we want education, not indoctrination. if you fall on the side of indoctrination, we are going to decline. if it is education, then we will do it. i figured they may be doing -- it is way more than that. this course on black history, what is one of the lessons about? queer theory. who would say an important part of black history is queer theory? that is somebody pushing an agenda on our kids. they have stuff about intersectionality, abolishing prisons, that is a political agenda.

that is the wrong side of the line for florida's standards. we believe teaching kids facts and how to think but we don't think they should have an agenda imposed on them. when you try to use black history to shoehorn in queer theory, you are trying to use that for political purposes. host: toure, indoctrination and political purposes here. guest: it is important to not have politicians shaping our education system. obviously that is going to have political implications. ron desantis is running for president, this is the pregame. he is setting the floor for himself so that the far right that supported trump will support him. that is what he is doing here. he does not actually care about what happens to the children of florida. i don't know what indoctrination means in this case. i know what he is trained to signal.

-- he is trying to signal. indoctrination is teaching them something that is not true. we do see neo-nazi homeschools happening. there was a report about what is happening in indiana. that is indoctrination, teaching young children to be 90's. -- to be nazis. teaching the history of america is not indoctrination. the notion of queer theory not fitting into black history is a historical. there's a huge number of gay and queer people who have been incredibly important to american history in general and also to black history and the black liberation struggle. we could sit here for 10 minutes naming important figures in that struggle. to say that doesn't fit for him either shows his political attempt to rally his base behind him for a complete

misunderstanding of american history. there is this notion that children should never be uncomfortable in the classroom. i remember taking college classes as an african-american studies major and learning about the particulars of slavery and walking out of the classroom feeling very upset, very uncomfortable, very angered. i was working at a restaurant at the time. it was difficult to work at a restaurant after hearing these things about what my ancestors had to do. that happens in the classroom. if white americans are uncomfortable doing about what happened, they should understand that is because of what has happened. we are not made a better nation by pretending bee stings did not happen. when we look at the history of germany and south africa, extra

ordinary atrocities have happened -- extraordinary atrocities happened. that helps you understand who you really are. we don't avoid people by pretending it doesn't exist. between must talk about it and confronted. host: where did you go to college. guest: emory university. host: what was the extent of teaching black history in your high school? guest: that is a good question. i graduated from milton academy in 1989. at that point, there was much more of a discussion nationally. it wasn't as codified as it would be later, but that we should have black history in classes. i had a black history class my junior year and my senior year. i went to a new england prep school, so it was a white christian man teaching those classes. as a person who was

extraordinary dedicated to that history -- this was a person who was extraordinarily dedicated to that history. he remains dedicated to black students. his knowledge was in the right place. but it also shows institution's and ability to find black people to teach this stuff. which was important. i did not have a black teacher. there were a couple of other black teachers in my school but i did not have a black teacher until i went to college. i feel like not having that black authority figure was a loss to me as well as my students. we should have experience of seeing black people in charge. that should absolutely be the case.

host: let's chat with a few callers. linda is up first out of connecticut, the land for democrats. caller: thank you for taking my call. i have been listening all day and the colors keep missing the point. is not about joe biden, it is not about republicans in congress. i don't know why so many of you are ignoring the fact that alan block is trying to possibly newspaper union. that should be a bigger story on your network. host: a couple of colors -- callers brought that up. is not an editorial issue we discussed here. do you have a question for toure? okay, we will go on to mike in michigan. caller: there are 36,000 black

millionaires in this country. 11 black billionaires in this country. who is the victim? host: do you want to think that -- do you want to take that? guest: there is a small number of black people who have been able to acquire wealth. that does not speak to the vast majority of black people who have not been able to acquire any wealth and are living in the working-class and have a history of wage theft and other ways of stealing their wealth or income throughout history. when we think about victims, that gets into an emotional and triggering situation. where we start to say who is the real racist, people get emotional. nobody wants to be called or feel like a racist.

i don't want anybody to feel like they are racist. i don't want to engage in that conversation because it is not a very emotionally productive -- it is not very emotionally productive. white people in this country are benefiting from the white privilege. that is accrued to everybody, even if you are an ally and you are loving and you are fully engaged in black liberation. you are benefiting from white privilege. the fact that oprah and jay-z and beyonce have been able to become billionaires in fairly traditional ways, lebron james and tiger woods as well. sports and entertainment has been open to a people for decades -- open to black people for decades. white people are able to get ahead in sorts of ways.

they don't realize they can move through their day and have white privilege affecting their day. they don't notice the cop that does not stop them. they don't realize the job they may not have gotten or any number of things, benefits accrue to them constantly without needing to do anything from white privilege. the idea that oprah is more rich than mike from michigan does not disprove white privilege. i read this interesting analogy this science-fiction writer wrote that being a straight white male is like playing the videogame of life on the lowest difficulty setting. that does not mean that mike from michigan and other white people did not work hard and are not going to work hard today and did not do things to earn their position in life.

however, that does not mean a black person cannot find a way to succeed in spite of the hurdles and difficulties. i think it is pretty clear that being white is easier. i post this on twitter, is there any white person willing -- if a genie him along and said you will be black the rest of your life and you can never go back. is there any white person who wants to do this? chris rock talks about this on his comedy. he says i am rich and white people don't want to treat basis with me. host: a viewer on twitter has a couple of questions, asking, "we want students to be taught that unequal outcomes only occur because of discrimination?"

to be want students to be taught that unequal outcomes only occur because of discoloration? -- because of discrimination? guest: surely we do want to teach people -- teach children that we cannot understand america if we don't understand systemic racism and the legacy of racism that continues to affect america today. there was a study after the 2020 election that showed the likelihood of voting for trump correlated with living in an area that had a certain amount of slaves. these things are not god. -- these things are not gone. to not understand these things

is do not truly understand what was going on in america. host: out of roswell, new mexico. debbie, thanks for waiting. you are on. caller: i am very nervous talking to you. i always admired what you had to say. we are talking history, facts, racism. let's stick with truth and facts. you keep saying white people, white people. i am 67 years old. i met one white person my entire life, he was an albino. why do we keep saying white people when they are pinkish -tan. maybe if we stop with the color of skin, that could get rid of racism. white people are not white. why do we keep saying they are white? host: do you want to take that up? guest: it is an interesting

point. i don't think not talking about race will get rid of racism. i understand that i am not actually the color black. white people are not actually the color of white. that is how we understand each other. i think we are making judgments about each other. i don't want to get down into interpersonal racism and what does each individual white person i encounter during a given day think of me. that is not where i want to think about racism. i want to think about systemic racism and the way that systems in america produce inequality for people of quality, especially black and brown people. education, wealth and accretion, criminal justice, where we live, all these things that white

privilege is constantly pushing white people forward and pushing masses of black people backwards. if we don't understand that that we don't understand america. host: a recent piece in the oklahoman, hannibal johnson, an author and historian of the black experience. he had a hole -- he had a column heading into this black history month in which he wrote, "if i had my druthers, they would be no black history month. as a chronicler of black history , somewhere think i would relish in in the history in which i am immersed. why then this contradiction? i concern lies in the isolation of black history, setting it from americana. to black history we celebrate is essential american history, relevant not just for african dissent but -- descent but for

all of us." he read that in the oklahoman, a call for the end of black history or why we don't need it. guest: understand the need to integrate. black history. black history is american history so. it should be integrated. . we are in the midst right now of the battle where the writing is trying to remove black history and some of the most difficult parts of history as it relates to a black people from the school curriculum. now is not the time to talk about maybe we should do black history as we are moving toward the erasure of black history. there is a value in the celebration of black history, of same to america, let's put a spotlight on the celebratory, victorious moments of black

history as well as the difficult moments. black history is rated x if it was a movie. i took much of into the african-american museum of history and culture in d.c. it is an extraordinary experience. but they move you through that history in a chronological way. papers couple of floors -- the first couple of floors, my daughter was crying. i am like, this is black history, this is what happened. the images of lynching may have been traumatizing to them. it was traumatizing to me. there are a lot of white people who feel like, where is white history month?

that notion becomes offensive to us because whiteness is celebrated constantly. white history month is every month of the year. we are saying we are going to take one month and put a spotlight on black history. that is difficult or offensive to you, that is offensive to many of us. host: for the third year in a row, "lift every voice and sing" was sung at super bowl festivities. a headline at fox news, "black national anthem at the super stirs debate on social media." your thoughts? guest: surly ralph led "lift every voice and sing" in a string way. i. know i was moved -- i know i was moved.

we appreciated the inclusion of that song from our history and culture in the solution of football where most of the people on the field are black. football is interesting because almost all of the skilled players are black. why cannot have her sing lived every voice -- have her sing "lift every voice." is not a song that contains a whole verse that is offensive and racist. there is a verse we don't sing that is a very dicey -- that is very dicey. we appreciate the value of that. is singing the black national anthem before the american national anthem is problematic to you, you should perhaps look in the mirror and try to figure out why the inclusion of black

culture is so triggering to you. host: betty in zion, illinois. for democrats -- the line for democrats. caller: there was a movie called "black like me" and he tried to change the color of his skin and went into the seven states. finally he decided he could not handle it. that was not what i was going to say. i am 84 years old. i was born and raised in greenville, south carolina. i went to a black school which still exists. there was music made like marvin gaye, "what's going on?"

that is good music. also, james brown "i don't want anybody to give me nothing." thank you for letting me speak on black history day. host: toure. guest: thank you for the call. the thing that jumps out at me, people who want to talk about slavery was so long ago. that he is 84 and she grew up in south carolina. was her grandmother and enslaved person or her great-grandparents? , blew her grandparents -- probably her grandparents. that is how close we are to that history. host: on that history and how close we are to that history, a podcast you are launching "being black in the '80's," what are

you referencing there? guest: i am talking about different songs and they speak to social political issues. thank you for bringing this up. the first episode is tracy chapman's "fast car." host: why is it one of the most important socks? important songs -- the most important songs? guest: it comes to the world's consciousness at the nelson mandela birthday concert. nobody thought nelson mandela was going to get out of prison. he was just an incredible inspiration. millions of people around the globe watched that concert because in the 1980's more

people had a global consciousness and we saw nelson mandela's struggle as our own. when they said we are going to have a televised international nelson mandela birthday concert, the world turned in -- tuned in. there was fortune for tracy chapman in that state he wondered they did something technological for his set and they did not have it. they sent someone scrambling. tracy chapman who recently released an album, but nobody was paying attention, all she needs is a guitar and a microphone. she goes out and does "fast car," and it is like the entire world gets wrapped up in this amazing song. she is first propelled by this global ds boric consciousness -- global diasporic

consciousness. i related to jesse jackson's presidential campaign which was ultimately about self-esteem. i am somebody, that was his key thing he would talk about. tracy chapman's life is brought to bear by affirmative-action. sugars up in poverty in cleveland and someone comes to her and says you could go to a good school in connecticut and they are like we don't even know what that is. because of a better chance, sheath is kosher to this school. it changes her life. she gets into tufts in boston where there is a scene of people doing this music. she meet somebody whose father is the head of a major record label and she gets into the canada for music she is doing.

there is no expectation that she is going to get signed. is very fortuitous. a brilliant historian made he pointed to me that affirmative action leads to afrocentrism and the global dasporic consciousness. black people were in academic and professional spaces where they are one of the very few black people around. they felt like it, i need grounding in my life to understand where i am and what is going on here. what they ended up creating was this global afrocentrism. it ties together. we also talked about elizabeth kotten, this full legend. she grew up in north carolina in the early 20th century. by age 12 she has written a song that years later would become a

folk classic. by 15 she has to quit playing the guitar to work for the family. she is married and a mother by 17 and spends four or five decades working as a domestic up and down the east coast until by chance she runs into yum peggy seeger who has lost her mother in a department store. older people will remember there were big department stores where you could lose your children and said you had to get on the speaker saying i found this young girl crying. the mom was like, you are so lovely, work -- come work for us. there are guitars all over the place and where she is a free moment, she takes one of the guitars and starts playing. peggy seeger and her little brother pete are like, the maid is very good at the guitar.

they start to facilitate her recording and touring. at 60 something years old, she becomes a full legend and she wins a grammy the year before "fast car" comes out. as could have been tracy chapman -- that could have been tracy chapman's life, a young folk master who cannot do it because she has to make money. because of affirmative action, her life was changed. we will talk about the war on drugs and the impact crack had on families. there is an episode i'm working on about the history of jamaican music in america. we are working about an episode on afro futurism. i am excited about this project. host: you were that are interested, where will they be able to find it. guest: this will be on thegrio

black podcast network. anywhere you get podcasts, this will be out there. host: giovanni cobb has been on this network when times. last year with will talking about his book "my seven black fathers." you can watch his appearances on our network on c-span.org. a little more than five minutes before the house comes in possession. we will take you -- comes in for session. we will take you there. until then, your calls for toure. this is cheryl, republican. caller: thank you for taking my call. the first point i want to make is we don't have a race problem in america, we have a spirituality and morality problem in america. you could do a lot of good by talking with dr. woodson, a really good man.

what i don't understand -- i don't understand why you would want to have hundreds of thousands of very young black people feel like they are oppressed. we are not oppressing anybody and we are being tired of being called racist. i worked my entire left, nobody gave me anything. my dad was dirt poor and he worked up to three jobs to put us through school. the real problems i never hear you talk about is what is really the problem, the lack of fathers in the homes. look at what is happening in our cities to our children. these children matter. do you know how many children were murdered last year in violent crime? it was well over 2000. that is a big number. host: let me give toure a chance

to respond. guest: there is some recent polling and studies. black fathers are actually more involved in their children's lives then the men of any other racial demographic. this bold bright pink -- old right-wing notion that fathers -- fathers are not participating in their children's lives does not line up with the data. we do have a racial problem. just because white people are poor does not mean white privilege does not affect their lives. does not mean you are not working hard and that your father was not working hard. but whiteness is beneficial in america. that should not even be controversial to say. that is pretty obvious. blackness is a hurdle we have to get over. i was taught that very early and

it is never a message of you can't make it. it is that there are extra hurdles. my mother said you have to be twice as good as those white kids. i did not see that as you are oppressed or don't try, it was like, we have to work harder. that is something i have educated with me throughout my life. -- i have had to carry with me throughout my life. i vitiate the notion of virtuality, but we do have a racial problem in this country when whiteness is inherently beneficial and blackness is detrimental. host: let's see if we can get in shamika. you are on with toure. caller: it is an honor to be -- it is an honor to be on the call. first of all, black woman, grew

up in georgia. it was shamed upon, i felt shame , especially when we're are talking about history. it was always impressed upon me to be thankful for individuals like president lincoln who freed the slaves, that is a common thing we were taught. when you talk about black history and you look at it like history as being -- at black history peasant being -- black history to means like people -- black people overcoming every hurdle that white superiority -- that white supremacy has created for us. my question is pertaining to the

comment that governor desantis stated, talking about queer theory and intersectionality being the challenge with african-americans. are these theories taught in other cultures like asian-american studies and latino american studies? host: i will end there because the house is about to come in. guest: i don't know the answer to when you go to latino history. lincoln made a judgment that he wanted to try to win the war. it was not some beneficent thing. it is a slavery that led to america being able to afford the war of independence and in the slavery that led to america becoming a global economic power. not just the work enslaved people did, but the value

created by those bodies. it is not just people who owned people who were benefiting from slavery. the entire united states economy grows to global economic power status because of that. the war of independence and it is slavery that led to america coming a global, economic power. not just the work enslaved people dead, but the value that

this is about 50 minutes.