>> coming up sunday morning robert e. lee discusses u.s. relations with china and author lance morrow discusses his new book the noise of typewriters. watch "washington journal" live at 7:00 a.m. eastern sunday morning on c-span or on c-span now are free mobile app. join the discussion with your phone calls, comments, text messages and tweets.

"washington journal" stars now. ♪ host: good morning. a new axios poll asked over 1200 what they say is the greatest threat to public health in the u.s.. opioids came out on top followed by obesity and gun access. there are differences of opinions depending on party affiliation. this morning we are asking you, what your top public health concern is? republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. you can text us at 202-748-8003.

send your name and city and state. or social media @cspanwj. welcome to washington journal. i want to show you the pole from axios. take a look at the numbers. this is what americans say is the current greatest threat to u.s. public health and you can see the overall numbers of opioids and fentanyl was on top followed by obesity, gun or fire access and then cancer, covid-19, unsafe road, tobacco products, and alcohol abuse. if you look, you will see democrats and republicans have differences of opinions. republicans thought opioids and fentanyl number one current greatest threat to public health.

democrats said it was gun or firearm access followed by obesity and opioids. the question about what the government should focus on it says should prioritize the top by far was lowering costs for health care and prescription drugs. the rest was reducing gun deaths and research in the treatment for major diseases was even and then ensuring the safety of existing health practices and medication, preventing deaths of overdose and accidents was at the bottom. let's take a look. you can give us a call on our lines by party affiliation. republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. we are asking what you think is the top public health concern

currently right now in the u.s.. let's take out a hearing earlier this month, the director of the office of national drug control policy discussed the fentanyl crisis in the u.s. [video clip] >> america is facing the worse drug crisis it is ever seen. this is not just members, but represent numbers losses to families and communities with an american dying every five minutes of every hour of every day. this is an unacceptable to me and it is unacceptable to the president. this crisis does more than cause tragic and preventable death, it is tearing the fabric of our nation. it presents a surging threat to public health and national security and economic

prosperity. as a practicing physician, i have a front row seat to the evolution of this epidemic. as you see in your state, it cuts across every demographic and economic boundary. the majority of illicit drugs harming americans is produced outside the net estates. criminal elements in the people's republic of china ship to mexico to produce illicit fentanyl. fentanyl has ever traded the drug supply including cocaine and meth. in america today, a teenager will find illicit drugs by opening a social media app on their phone. this is an era of new drug trafficking and it requires new drug policy era. president biden strategy is tackling this threat head-on. we are dressing key drivers of the epidemic, untreated

addiction and the prophets that if you lit -- fuel it. if it remains easy to get illicit drugs in america then treatment, we will never end of this crisis. that is why in the state of the you you address president biden announced to stop fentanyl production at every point including holding accountable big tech companies that allow the sale of illegal drugs on the platform and increasing the number of first responders and other professionals to response a mental health. thanks for the hard work of law enforcement officers receiving record amounts of fentanyl and domestic alone tonight drug traffickers nearly $9 billion in profit last year. host: we are asking you what your top public concern is and we are taking your calls this morning but before i want to show you at that same sentiment born in hearing earlier this

month, this republican criticized demonstration policy on drugs and fentanyl. which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> in 2021, more than 100,000 americans died, nearly 70% of which were from fentanyl, fentanyl related deaths among children 14 years old and under have tripled since 2019, many of the deaths involved, pitch prescription pills laced with internal which law enforcement agencies report is easily accessible through social media. addressing this threat require greater awareness about the dangers of fentanyl. coronation of resources for mental health and effective. identify and cut off the pipelines of where we can. china is primary source of

illicit fentanyl and synthetic opioid precursors. mexican cartels are using to manufacture illegal drugs. there are dennis buckley this -- there are then smuggling the drugs into the united states. mexican cartels leverage their drug tasking properties to acquire weapons, corrupt officials, challenge authority of the mexican state and commit atrocities. the cartels are profiting from prolonging the illegal migration crisis. my colleagues and i release a report last year offering concrete recommendations to improve border security. unfortunately, that administration refuses to acknowledge we have a problem. it is time that administration makes out. the president needs to be serious about addressing this. the chinese government

endorsement of this massive drug trade is an issue yet the president meeting with i jinping makes no mention of this serious problem. chinese officials should also understand drug producing or transit countries eventually become drug using countries. china's complacency could have dire consequences for the future of its nation. host: we are asking you your top public health concern this morning all "washington journal" . marcus is up for in indiana, good morning. caller: good morning. i think i qualified to answer your question on this. i remember a month ago, somebody called in and said, you do not

receive certain cause if you do not have an iq over 100. i do have one and i have a math degree. i will give you simple math here. there is 100,000 deaths from fentanyl as stated by the congressman but there is closer to one million deaths from abortion. our greatest health concern is the first part of a little baby and i pray to god abortion will soon end. that will solve our social security problem we had 70 million that were killed and all of their offspring paying into social security we would have no social security problem whatsoever. i do appreciate your service to the nation here is you come on every week. thank you very much.

host: robert is next in arizona. robert? ok. we will get that working in the meantime let's take a look at text. in california, he says, top public health concern hands down is fentanyl. china making it, but given them a path and compounding the crisis by having open borders. this also is a text from richard in florida who says, health care is outstanding and still cutting edge but medical billing practices are much more innovative than the carousel. because biggest issue -- cost is the biggest issue with health care. mary says, no md or hospital.

that is a medical emergency. that was a subject of a mpr article here. if you take a look, facing health care worker shortage may be something congress can agree on. the article says, senators are eyeing the growing shortage of health care workers in the united states as one of the few problems where there is room for bipartisan solutions, even in a deeply divided congress drink the upper presidential election cycle. the shortage is a widespread problem, but especially acute in rural areas and minority communities. there are nearly 100 million people who do not have easy access to primary care physician. almost 70 million with no dentists at hand. some 158 one million people

who have few local motel health providers according to senator sanders. they go back to the phones now. robert in arizona. are you there? caller: yes, i am. our biggest problem is the federal government. we have a hospital here that has to take care of 400,000 people plus u.s. citizens and with all these border jumpers coming across, the federal government is not reimbursing the hospital. they owe the hospital $28 million. they cannot afford to operate on a deficit like that. i do not know how things are going to turn out, but according to the director of the hospital, they might have to close the hospital down completely and

send everybody from the area to to skin or phoenix -- to phoenix which is miles away from us. it is a dire situation. host:paul on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning and thank you for the opportunity to voice an opinion. i want to say it is obesity. this little time to get out there and exercise with the hours americans have to work in my job is pushing for a healthier lifestyle. do you feel the company is promoting a healthy lifestyle? absolutely not. you do not get home until 7:00 at night and have to be up at 4:00 the next morning. when you get a workout in? thank you for the opportunity to talk today. host: rhonda in new jersey on

the line for democrats. hi. caller: good morning, america. i think the biggest crisis we have is mental health in this country. i was watching fox news with jesse walters last night and they had gabby gilford on their and she had biden cabinet there and was accusing him of saying we have a fascist cabinet because we have a diverse cabinet. america looks like joe biden cabinet. what they are doing is they are poisoning people's minds with fascist ideology. it is causing caucasians to get high.

host: he started with mental health being the issue. how is that related to the cabinet? caller: it is not just that, it is the propaganda that is out here. it is causing people to be come depressed. we are such a divided country. to be truthful with you, i blame all of this on donald trump and fox news. you need to have a segment on the menu showing they knew they were lying, mocking these people. host: we are off the subject now. take a look at some of the text we got. reggie also agrees that the top health -- health concern is mental health. we will talk about snap and food

stamps later on in the program at 8:00 eastern so stay with us for that. here is a text from william, top public health concern, political division leave citizens at risk to fentanyl, border, and opioids. health care cost and violent crime. then -- let's go to been in mississippi, independent line. caller: good morning. we are our greatest health threat. host: how then? caller: none of the drugs kill you. you have to take them to kill you. guns do not kill you, you have to use it to kill somebody with it. human beings are the greatest threats to their health. host: ok. mary in philadelphia, democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning, c-span.

my main health concern is the lack of funding that we have to combat basically unconventional war on drugs, war on terror, war on poverty. we see misappropriation of funds for rehab sbarro money from other countries -- we have to borrow money from other countries. we have empty facilities, drug treatment centers in philadelphia where people are not willing to go into treatment centers. they want open drug markets. when we have people that are benefiting financially based on these unconventional wars. we have more gun violence now in philadelphia, pennsylvania, in this country based on people that are running from other

countries, which has faced the same thing in their own country. lack of police protection. a lack of anti-violence group that supposed to protect the citizens and help the citizens in philadelphia and throughout the country. we need to look at how we are funding unconventional wars. any you have to borrow money protect people in other countries, it becomes a problem. we take the resources away from benefiting people in our own country. host: let's take a look at kevin mccarthy, speaker of the house earlier this month at the border. in that a congressional delegation there and here he attacks the biden administration on the drug and border policy. [video clip] >> i want to thank these group

of freshmen for taking the time to come down here and learn. sat and listened to community leaders. they heard stories from the sheriff, that his job was only 5% full -- jail was only 5% full of arresting illegals. no federal money comes in. the challenges they see coming across. the fear you have in a county that a mexican cartel is the biggest employer. you do not feel safe in your nation. the saddest part about all of this, the mexican government does not know which of their student -- which of their citizens are leaving their country. the american government does not know who is coming into our country. there is one who knows both, the sinaloa cartel.

they know what is in the backpacks, the drugs that kill americans. today more than 300 americans will be poisoned and died from fentanyl. looking at a place in much of it come through. tomorrow there will be 300 more. vesicle event of airline crash -- that is the equivalent of an airline crash. the new majority in congress where going to fight this problem. the longer for the democrats be able to ignore the issue and at like it is not happening. we will have hearings on the border, responsibility of all members to attend, those who come to testify, will come from both sides of the aisle and they will tell the truth of what is happening just as we heard today. host: that a speaker mccarthy at

the southern border. as a reaction, let's take a look at senate born in hearing from earlier this month, dea administrator, and she discussed u.s. officials are doing at the border and what their administration is doing. [video clip] >> our top operation priority is to defeat these two cartels. we have taken a network-based approach to the cartels. we can no longer just target the high-value targets, the people at the top and expect to see a change. we are targeting the entire network from precursor chemical companies in china to the chemist and members of the cartel mass-producing fentanyl in mexico to the people transporting it to the united states and selling it in the united states and moving the money back to mexico. we formed this past september

two counterfeit teams. on top of all of dea, our 300 offices worldwide in 69 countries. we have one counter threat team to defeating the cartel and one devoted to the holistic cartel. on those teams without special agents, intelligence analysts, target others, scientists, and experts on illicit finance andy kim is and chinese precursors. those teams are mapping the cartels worldwide. we have identified the cartels in more than 40 countries around the world. in addition to mapping the cartels, they are analyzing the cartels identify key notes we can use to defeat the cartels and targeting the cartels. we have begun sending out target packages across the united states.

in addition to all of that work, we are working in communities. we know drug-related violence has increased and we see devastation of drug poisoning death. we are working on public awareness. i know so many members of this committee are doing the same, but we believe every american has understand one pill can kill and fentanyl is the deadliest threat facing our country today. host: we are asking your opinion on what you think is the top public health concern in the united states currently. give us a call. republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. let's take a look at a couple of tweaks that i come in. this one says obesity in united states as a underlying health problem contributing to lots of diseases. here's a text from gregg, we are

the biggest threat to health care. people are allergic to exercise and healthy eating. high blood pressure, heart attacks, strokes, diabetes are primarily due to being obese. troy, says, the lack of primary health care for a large section of the population, a very high cost for drugs, only rich country in the world that is not have universal health care, even a poor country like cuba provides free health care to its citizens. that is my primary concern. dennis in alabama on independent line. you are on the air. caller: hi. about this obesity stuff and drugs, is my main concern. obesity, most of that is chemicals they put in the food.

back in 1800 they do not have cap the size and putting in the food given people cancers and diabetes. on the drugs, i can cure that and the whole world. let them have all of what they want. when they kill themselves, the drugs will die out. the cartels will die out. the crime will die out. host: in riverside, california, democrats line. caller: hi. host: good morning. caller: i called in because i was listening. i'm an avid watcher. i take a break because i do not like hearing everyone's opinion, but i had to call in because i

did not appreciate how you did not listen to the caller from new jersey. she is making a good point about how the divisive nature of our country is impacting our mental health because it is depressing. it is quite depressing. i recall that teens were committing suicide during trump's presidency because it was so divisive. our member students were writing -- i remember students were rioting. hispanic students were walking out of school. it was divisive. it was impacting their mental health and a could not take it. host: i do member that but teen suicide is still high now even though she -- trump is not in office. caller: that is true. we had to deal with covid with trump denying it was an issue

and all of that divisive nature between everyone thinking about what was going to solve the problem. even though there are so many people listening to social media . depression and anxiety is on an ultimate high and i do attribute it to everyone giving their opinion through social media and the divisive nature carried out in homes too. you are seeing more families at ends and you are seeing people struggling with the hate they are talking about and watching tv and listening to the radio, the news and all of that. there is a lot of hate right now. there is no denying that trumps campaign lifted that up.

everybody was saying racism is dead. you cannot say that anymore, can you? host: we got your point. from twitter, what would have to ask what brought so many people to drug addiction? over the years, republicans continue to defund mental health care facilities which may have caused people to self medicate because there is no psychiatric help available to them. in maryland on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i think the one thing is we are allowed -- we are being attacked from all friends from partisan michael -- pharmaceutical industry and ohio which is not getting any attention from the mainstream media when they intentionally cause the train to

crash and when the chemicals build. host: who caused it intentionally? caller: whoever owns it. it is biological warfare. host: you said they track -- you said they crash the plane on purpose? to the is next in vermont on the independent line -- kitty is next in vermont on the independent line. caller: good morning. i want to talk about the fentanyl situation. it is out of control. people who think they are doing one drug are doing another drug. there taking their lives already from the drugs they are doing but the fact.

being doing another drug that could kill them on a one-time basis without their knowledge is what a super scary out there. people need to understand that no drugs are safe at this point. if that is something you have a family or friends, you need to look out and reach out because this is more than people being drug addicts. this is somewhat being targeted. these are people being targeted and it is crazy how much it has been affected even here in a rural area. i know people personally who have died from this. everyone needs to be aware it is the one pill that could kill you situation. it is scary. we all need to reach out to our loved ones and make sure they know just that that they are loved. most people are trying to get

over something or hurting in some way or another and it is why they are doing drugs to begin with. this is a great opportunity for a lot of people to dig deep and remember these are not just quote unquote drug addicts are people who went the wrong way, these are people being targeted and killed and right here in our own country. host: take a look at a text from joe skeen of carolina who says, the greatest health threat in the world is pollution in our water. you only live if you can drink fresh, clean water. there is plastic and forever chemicals at the bottom of the ocean. a text from mike in minnesota, health insurance is to expensive. americans face medical bankruptcy. the u.s. needs universal health care eligibility for medicare at age 50.

raymond from of carolina on the republican line. caller: good morning. i think the biggest threat to the american health care is the pharmaceutical industry is self. have you seen commercials? what either another after another. -- one after another after another, no matter what channel you watch. you never go to the doctor's office and the doctor tells you you have to get exercise. i had diabetes. the doctor had me on 500 milligrams and then 1000 milligrams then 2000 milligrams in my sugar was still going crazy. i decided to take action myself. i started working and exercising. i do not take any diabetic medicine at all.

the problem is they are pushing these drugs so much on people it's creating another set of problems. people are on dialysis. host: you went off of all medications for diabetes? caller: yes. i was taking insulin, placeba. host: you're doing fine without any medication? caller: yes. i was 7.9% at one time and then the doctors think -- even when i was go to the doctor and say i was not take into for three months, he said i suggest you still take it. i said, my sugar is down to 6.1%. why would i take it?

they want to push these medicines. i think the doctors are getting kickbacks on the staff. host: edgar on the line for democrats from texas. the morning. -- good morning. caller: good morning. i think the problem is lying free it the need to do something about lying, especially in washington. they need to stop the politicians from lying about the -- to the american people and getting in the office and doing something different. host: how is that a public health concern? caller: as you grow, everyone is lying to you. everything that everybody says it seems they are lying. if you're trying to do business on the phone, they are lying. if you listen to the politicians, they are lying. they put a young man in the,

george santos, and he is a liar. started out lying and he is still in a position greater than the average. host: john next in arkansas. good morning. caller: hi. i have decided -- i'm a old man. i decided every one of those politicians are to be on top of the white house. it is a struggle to make a living to pay their bills. host: i'm having trouble making out when you are saying. apologies to that. in washington on the independent line. caller: good morning. i have a quick comment about the woman talking about trump.

operation warp speed was the creation of the covid vaccine and joe biden and kamala harris -- also, talking about fentanyl and border crisis, why don't they make the mexican cartels active terrorists and send our army in there and get rid of the problem? kari lake ran on the invasion of the southern border with our constitution. she said the first thing she would do with is initiate the impatient calls and close the border immediately -- close the border immediately. if they did that, we would not have a problem in the united states. host: boris in new jersey, good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to see more attention given to medical training in united states because of various health issues

for myself and my family. in recent years the inpatient settings to meet aides from the caribbean and nurses from philippines, doctors from southeast asia, sometimes with confusing communication and it is a situation that is low respect for the lease paid in high respect for the highest-paid. and doctors that have incurred significant that if they turn in the country and then she specialty that allows them to pay it off leaving subspecialties underserved. my fantasy would be a different program that would require some of these people who want to do clinical work to spend a small amount of time, six months, is get chemical studying nursing homes, hospital where they would

immediately expose to the situation obtained now and think about some of that as they're going to -- through their medical careers and have more support from the government here for a team approach to medical training so there would be people training in classes together as nurses and doctors and technicians rather than having to always separate classes. host: we got your point. let's take a look at this portion from the state of a union where president biden talks about efforts to eradicate cancer. [video clip] pres. biden: last year we reignited the cancer moonshot i was able to start with president obama. our goal is to cut the cancer death rate in the next 25 years.

turn worked absences to treatable diseases, -- death sentences to treatable diseases. host: we are talking about what you think the top public health concern is. where are taking your calls and your text. here is a text from daniel in illinois. the biggest problem is the choices people make. they eat unhealthy food, do not exercise, use illegal drugs. we have met the enemy and he is us. here's a text from texas who says, my top public health concern is the failure of the cdc and ama in identifying screen time and handheld mobile device dangers. this text from california says, the trifecta of mental health

crisis synthetic opioids epidemic and overall poor conditions of most americans as a problem for which are only complex difficult and expensive solutions. i think we are stuck with them. rich in michigan, republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. it has to do with the health of what is happening to people in legitimate pain due to the attack against the opioids and what would on at the pharmaceuticals companies and the pharmacies, i've had various back operations. i am in constant pain a daily. if is like somebody stabbing me up and down my arm but i cannot find a doctor that would give me any kind of pain medication that will work. they put the stuff on the market.

it is a synthetic heroin. they draw people into these clinics because people are hurting and they do not know where to turn for their pain or the pain medication. host: you want the opioids and you cannot get them because a doctor would not prescribe it? caller: exactly and what pain causes you to stay in bed. you do not want to get out of bed. you are depressed. you have nothing to take that will combat the paint so you cannot do things that are normal. you cannot play baseball with your kids. you cannot throw a football across the yard. it creates more mental issues with people. i think it is unfair they have targeted opioids in general because they cannot put anything

or have not put anything else on the market that works for pain. i did not know about people addicted to this drug, but i've used it legitimately for pain for many years and i could get the drug and i never become addicted to it. i never had withdrawal issues. when i go to -- when i have deep pain, nothing works. motrin does not work. colin allred does not work. aleve does not work -- tylenol does not work. aleve does not work. host: tom is in illinois on the independent line. caller: elgin. host: sorry, i do that all the time. elgin. caller: the good that caught in about trump causing mental

problems, i find it bizarre. biden is one of the most divisive figures in politics. prior to biden being on the judiciary committee, we got judges in an hour or three hours until he started politicizing it. host: let's stick with the top public health concern. caller: the biden administration is going to give our power and take it away from our doctors and give it to the who so the who decides what we should use an lockdowns we should have. i find that bizarre. i think public health concerns with pharmaceutical companies and cdc telling our doctors what they can do their patients is the biggest health concern. host: the biggest health concern according to the polls for democrats was gun access. let's take a look earlier this

month, illinois senator speaking about mass shootings including in parkland florida and called on a ban on assault weapons. [video clip] >> five years ago today a 19-year-old gunman murdered 17 people and wounding 17 more at mst high school in parkland florida. the fifth anniversary and we are observing the madness that took place in michigan. the government fired in parkland -- the gunman fired instrumentally as students and teachers. the dead included 14 students and three's staff members. the parkland shooting horrified our nation. a cut deep in illinois, 65 miles

outside of chicago. 10 years ago on valentine's day 2008 a gunman armed with a shotgun and three semiautomatic pistols kicked open the door of the auditorium classroom walked up and down the aisle shooting people and permanently. the shooting lasted under six minutes. when it ended, five students had died and more than 20 were injured. six weeks into the year, 2023, already this year, at least 5000 -- 5127 americans have died by gun violence. last year congress passed president biden signed they most sweeping gun safety law in 30 years. bipartisan state for communities act. it toughened background check stub gun purchases under the age

of 21. it included funding to help states implement laws to keep guns out of the hands of people who pose a danger to themselves or others. today my home state of illinois was awarded $9.5 million in funding under the new law to help carry out the law. that is progress. but the majority of americans support stronger gun safety laws including closing the gaps in background check systems for purchases. i believe congress should restore the ban on assault weapons including ar-15 style rifles, increase the weapon of choice for mass shooters. these military style weapons have no place in schools, neighborhoods, or college campuses. host: the senator talking about gun laws and were taking your calls about your top public health concern.

linda sent us a tweet, she says, my top public health concern is guns. sending kids to schools to have shooting drills and not knowing when you send your kid to school, if they will come home and update from a mass shooting -- will come home or end of a dead mms shooting. barry from ohio, good morning. caller: good morning. someone spoke earlier about nick foreman and i've read a lot about it being a difficult problem. it is not helping people. it is hurting them. i came across a doctor online who gave a simple drink that salt mine. i went down from 8.0 to eight

5.2. take five mint leaves. three ingredients plus water. five mint leaves, to green tea bags, two limes, quarter them and squeeze it in luke warm water. every 24 ounces or so. if you make a half gallon picture, double the ingredients put in the refrigerator and let the cold. it will taste great and take two ounces. host: right. -- all right.

rick. caller: good morning. we are talking about the drugs coming over and stuff. biden opened up the border and every tom and harry is coming over and it is sad. he has broke the law. he is letting everybody come in. i'm sorry to say, all these people democrats, they like lies in the office and that is what they want. all the people that call in the democrats do not know jack. 1 let's take a look at this article from u.s. news.com. the headline is, u.s. deaths involving meth are skyrocketing.

fentanyl a big factor. it says that death from meth among americans increase between 1999 and 2021 a new study finds. it says, the lead researcher says," the increase in meth as is largely driven by the involvement of street opioids. mixing meth and opioids is not a new phenomenon although there has been an increase in popularity of using these substances together. what has changed is the toxicity of the unregulated street drug supply for of fentanyl and other synthetic opioids. i believe this is the primary driver of the increase in deaths." richard in beach, florida. hi. caller: good morning.

what i think is the most critical health problem we have today is mental health, specifically with school aged children. this is a foundation of our future society and at a young age, children learn -- are supposed to learn what is right and wrong but it should be taught -- the wrong thing should be taught in a non-hateful matter and i believe in early education, if there is tension given that attention given to identify mental health issues at an early age, they can be addressed and should be more individual attention at that age to identify a child's talents and passions and reinforce positive aspects and if we do that, perhaps these children

will not go on to, it will minimize having kids fill the need to turn to harmful drugs and harmful other ways of life. as we hear about putting all of our efforts and resources into colleges. we need to put more effort into early education. that is where it all starts. host: betsy in virginia on the line for democrats. caller: hi. my other concern is mental health of our country. mental health is based on a condition of how so many things are piled up in the life of american person, myself being 71

years old man has when it's for a long time. that is the vision. -- that is the vision -- that is division. it begins to be a mental think about how we are going to live in united states of america. that is what i have to say about that. host: sandra is next on the independent line. hi. caller: hi. good morning. my concern is doctors give a band-aid to most people instead of finding the real cause and i feel doctors how to be accountable for their actions. myself as a victim of doctors and staff not reading reports when it clearly indicated something was wrong. i almost lost my leg.

john hopkins sent me a report, over a year ago, saying 400 50,000 deaths due to medical errors and i feel doctors have to be accountable for their actions and because -- the costs they bill medicare is so phenomenal it is going to bankrupt the systems they do not take enough time to read what is going on. this is a major problem in this country with these medical errors and unnecessary deaths and i feel doctors take advantage and no one overseas them. host: bill on the independent line in alabama. caller: thank you for taking my call. this is from personal family experience. you got doctors that prescribe

opioids that get people hooked on opioids. that is a big problem here in the south and i'm sure it is across the nation. for the cdc to put out a statement about guns. a gun is an inanimate object. yes i have a human hand operated -- you have to have a human hand to operate it. free to put -- for you to put durbin on to talk about drugs when his state is a war zone in chicago and he wants to talk about and they have some the strictest gun laws in our nation. that is a ridiculous -- it is laughable the things you put on tv.

the media that is perpetrated and help with all this bullcrap. host: frank in connecticut on the republican line. caller: thank you for taking my call. i agree with the previous caller in regard to guns. let's not make gun an issue. it is the person that has a mental problem. as far as the health concern, there are beautiful young children being brainwashed and their ponds and they're going to become victims and even with covid, what we find out is there are people that are paralyzed with covid. the fear factor has been demonstrated and pushed by the

media for political and power purposes and were killing our people. i cannot imagine having a young child wearing a mask. what's mental problem are you creating you have to have a mask and think for the rest of their life they have to fear, have this rare factor. that is what we are doing to our children. they're going to have a problem in the future. all these kids to become adults are going to have this fear factor in their head. host: frank mentioned guns. here's an article from abc news.com. it says, more than 6000 people killed in gun violence so far in 2023. it says shootings have continuously made headlines in the first two months of the year. so far 6248 people have died this year and that is roughly an average of 116 deaths each day

but deaths by suicide made up the vast majority of gun violence -- this year at 56%. so far, are those who died from gun violence, 220 seven routines and 36 were children. -- 226 where teens and 36 were children. caller: good morning. i am a 40 year listener and first time caller. i believe the biggest medical crisis happening in america right now is voting habits of my democrat friends. i know you were not cut me off because i called on the democratic front -- line. i'm 67-year-old white man born in michigan, drink the water.

i was born twisted and said i would never run run, probably not walk. now i am a karate champion. work 10 years in the job force with my democrat boots. voted straight ticket up until and here is what i want my democrat friends to remember take this in his obit nash take this and absorb it. host: that's all we have for this segment. up next, march 1 marks the end of the key pandemic loose of put this estimate -- food. vince hall discusses the benefits and what will happen after the cut off. later, jeff guinn discusses the 1993 siege of the branch

davidian compound near waco, texas. as we mark the 30th anniversary of that tragedy this year. ♪ >> 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, c-span has provided complete coverage of the floor of congress, committee meetings. c-span gives you a front row seat on how issues are debated with no commentary no interruptions, and and completely unfiltered. ♪ >> american history tv,

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coverage of the u.s. response to russia's invasion of ukraine, bringing you the latest from white house officials, the state department, and congress. we have international perspectives from the united nations on the c-span networks, and our latest webpage. go to c-span.org/ukraine. >> washington journal continues. host: welcome back to washington journal. i am joined by vince hall. welcome. guest: thank you for having me. host: tell us about your organization. how is it funded? guest: most people know somewhere in their community

there is an institution called a food bank. we represent 200 partner food banks that cover the u.s. and puerto rico. they are connected to 75 affiliate food banks. charity and faith-based organizations were seafood from those organizations and distributed to the community. people lend their time, they donate food, they donate funds, and people do everything they can to support their local food bank. there is some food coming from the usda through a federal program to support the cost, the vast majority of the revenue that funds these food banks is private donations. host: let's talk about the snap program. the extra funding is set to expire across the u.s. march 1.

snap is the supplemental nutrition assistance program. it is also called food stamps. tell me about who qualifies and what is the criteria to qualify? guest: the criteria is based on people's income and expenses. the program started in the late 1970's. it was bipartisan legislation, supported by senator dole and senator mcgovern. we have abject hunger into serious malnutrition in the united states. through bipartisan support, a program was created to make sure that everyone was entitled to a minimum amount of nutrition to preserve their ability to work, and to treat seniors and children with dignity. the program has been successful at lifting millions out of poverty. during the pandemic, because the economy shut down, the benefits people got from snap was

immediately raised to the maximum level. for those who are already at the max, and extra increment was available. those benefits are set to expire at the end of this month. they were called emergency allotments. those allotments are going to go away. host: those were intended to be temporary during the pandemic, and now that all of those pandemic restrictions are going away, you would think this would also go away. guest: we always knew the emergency allotments were going to go away. the problem is, it was our hope and expectation that this additional investment in snap would continue, and that unfortunately is not the case. we are moving from a pandemic crisis to a hunger crisis in the united states. this is a time of low unemployment but high demand at

churches and local food banks. we are seeing sustained demand greater than what we saw at the height of the pandemic in many communities. this is the worst time to cause people to lose purchasing power, sending more people towards food pantries. your local food bank is already struggling to keep up with demand. host: i will remind our viewers, if you would like to weigh in and to share your opinion or ask a question, you can do that right now. our lines are republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. you can use (202) 748-8003 four text or you can reach us on

social media. do we have actual numbers as to how many people were helped over the pandemic? do you have any may be that were not eating or not getting access to nutritious food? guest: approximately 40 million people were participating in the snap program last year. about 18 states have already dented the emergency allotments program. the number of people who are going to see serious reductions in their snap benefits next month is 32 million people. that is almost 10% of the entire u.s. population. $3 billion a month in purchasing power will disappear

from the u.s. economy. food banks are already very stressed. inflation has caused people who were just getting by two now not be able to meet their monthly budgets. when you add in the cost of heating, rent, fuel, health care, food is one of the first things people end up cutting. for those 32 million who will lose that additional snap benefit, that may be the difference between them being able to get by every month, and having to turn to food banks. host: 13 states have already phased out the additional benefits. have we seen any impact about level from those states? guest: we have. georgia ended its emergency allotments last year. they saw a 34% increase in demand at the food bank when emergency allotments were terminated.

this is a serious multiplier for demand at local food distributions. those nonprofit organizations partnering with food banks to bring nutritious food to families in need will need additional help. there is no magical formula that makes food available based on the fact that people are suffering. host: the n in snap is nutrition. what safeguards are there that -- could people use this money on sodas and not nutritious food? host: it is a nutrition -- guest: it is a nutrition driving program. people are able to shop with dignity at a grocery store. they are able to buy food that is culturally and demographically right for their families and they are able to do so without stigma.

it facilitates people having access to nutritious food in a way that not having a program like snap with people resorting to value menus at restaurants or resorting to buying the cheapest box of carbs they can find -- and by the way, food banking has evolved pest of 1980's. he used to be that food banks leaned heavily into canned and boxed foods. now they are rescuing healthy, fresh proteins at every point in the food supply chain from the, retailer,, from packaging and getting that two communities in need across the country. host: i want to talk about requirements for those on food stamps. here is a quote from jodi erickson. he is a republican om texas.

"a republican majority will make wo, not government handouts, the best option for able-bodied citizens. democrats have paid people more be on government unemployment than they made in their previous jobs. they have hijacked profami and pro-work tax policies by giving them monthly pay checks regardless of their ability to participate in the labor force." guest: most of the people on the snap program are seniors, children, and people with disabilities. people on the program who are able to work often are working. last year food prices went up 11%. wages went up 4.7%. the gap between what people are able to earn and what they are able to spend is growing into the reality is people are often having 2 jobs or have a

full-time job and a good job, just to have enough money to get through the month. the people i know in texas are the hardest working people you will meet in your life. they are doing everything possible to lift their kids out of poverty, but we as a country have to be committed to that too. it is not in our national interested to have people show up --have kids show up at the end of summer break malnourished. we want seniors to be able to maintain their health. we want workers who have fallen on hard times to have the strength they need to relocate if they have to, find, and maintain employment. hunger is destructive to the entire economic cycle.

host: let's talk to some callers. john is next. caller: thank you for taking my call. i love c-span. i am a senior. we are snap recipients. we are losing it at the end of the month. my wife works. she makes a lovely $30,000 a year and it is not enough. you go to the grocery store, you pay for insurance on your car, and i am driving a 17-year-old car. the thing is what are we going to do? how do they expect us to survive? i can tell you the food banks are overwhelmed. you go to the food bank, you get in line and you are behind bmws, mercedes, new cars, and they are

taking food from the food bank! why? the line is out the door. it is utterly ridiculous. america has become the divided states. it is crazy. political entities want to make people suffer so they can blame it on the other party. host: let's get a response. guest: thank you, john. my heart goes out to you and your wife as you prepare for this serious reduction in benefits. the impact of terminating these paemic related snap benefits will fall hardest on seniors and many seniors will see steeper reductions, as many as $280 a month lost. it is hard to imagine people being able to nourish themselves for a whole month with $23 of

grocery store purchasing power. this is a complicated situation. what we saw during the pandemic is many middle-class families were one or two paychecks away from bankruptcy. we saw people who drove nice cars, lived in nice houses, but bad savings, into losing one or two paychecks meant that they were also food insecure. the feeding america food bank makes sure that anyone who needs help getting three months and making sure their household is nourished has a place to turn, but that is becoming harder and harder for us to achieve because food banks are affected by inflation, every bit as much as people and communities. we are having to paid to transfer food to food banks. we have frozen and refrigerated produce and proteins.

while inflation is driving more people to need to turn to food banks, inflation is also making it harder for food banks to serve the need in front of them today. host: gary is next in dated, ohio -- dayton, ohio. you are a snap recipient? caller: i guess. here in ohio they call it eby cards-- ebt cards. 2 months or so ago, i was without gas for 2 weeks. there was no way for me to cook my food that i was buying with my food card, except for the microwave. let's say you are in a disaster area, and you have no power and no gas. i think they should make it so that you can use the ebt card at

local restaurants where you can get hot food. guest: thank you, gary for bringing that issue up. this is something that has been piloted in multiple states, this ability to buy prepared food.s you make a great point. at times when people do not have access to the ability to cook food, being able to access prepared food is the difference between being fed and being malnourished. there are many seniors in this country for whom it is not safe to use a kitchen to prepare foods. there are people in this country who are un-housed and never have access to a kitchen. giving them access to cooked foods does not solve the entirety of the problem they face, but in areas where snap benefits have been used to pay for prepared foods, we have seen

seniors and unhoused people get access to food they can actually eat. it is an important model that should be implemented nationwide to close gaps in what snap is intended to do and what it is able to do. host: john is on their line for snap recipients in massachusetts. caller: thank you for taking my call. they give you about $10 a day with the extra money now. they will cut that off. why is the government going to cut off the extra snap money they are giving you and they will still not make more college people give back their money? they're still giving money to the ukraine. we are housing illegal immigrants all over the country. i don't understand how their is no money for -- there is no money for americans. what about americans?

what are they doing for americans? wired face stopping the fentanyl? -- why aren't they stopping the fentanyl? guest: snap as a part of the overall federal budget. our elected representatives in congress have to make difficult decisions about what programs they will invest your tax dollars and and which programs they will deprive. the major piece of legislation that determines your snap benefits is called the farm bill and it comes up once every five years. this is the year. the farm bill is actively under consideration right now so this would be an important moment to reach out to your senators and to your member of the house of representatives, and emphasized to them that you want to see the

farm bill strengthened the snap program. you would like to see benefit adequacy that helps people on snap get through an entire month of feeding their kids and to make sure that the enrollment process is not as complicated and bureaucratic as it is in many places in this country and let the program do what it is supposed to do. if they built freeways, then hid odd ramps we would -- on ramps, we would be enraged but that is what we do with the snap program. we make it difficult to get on the program and make it difficult for people on the program. this is your opportunity as a citizen to affect the future of the snap program. host: the undocumented, are they eligible for snap assistance? guest: people who are not in the country lawfully are not eligible for snap benefits. we got a text from new jersey. sue says, " many need food

assistance programs to survive, however, what is done to discourage fraud and abuse? how do we make sure help is getting to the people who actually need it?" guest: the fact is that technology is playing a critical role in reducing any opportunity for fraud within the snap program. many studies have been done of snap and found that it is one of the most secure and effective federal programs. it is the case that there is always opportunity for improvement. one of the latest challenges in the snap program so-called skimming where people are putting phony card readers and front of the real card readers at retail outlets, and when snap recipients slide there ebt cards through their data is being used to drain their snap benefit

levels for the entire month. congress is working to address this issue. there were some solutions implemented through the omnibus spending bill passed 2 months ago. our leadership at the usda is working to address that snap skimming but wherever fraud exists there are technology solutions that help us to address that fraud and make the program stronger by getting benefits to the people it is intended to serve. host: let's go to salem, massachusetts next. caller: good morning. i don't know what country we are really talking about. america should go on a diet for 6 months to a year anyways. most people are obese. our forces cannot recruit enough people because of obesity. what are we talking about here really? i don't understand it. guest: you make a great point about the armed forces.

the percentage of people in our country, and fit enough to serve in the armed services is at a low point in recent decades and investing in nutrition is a way of investing in the health and security of our workforce, not just for the armed forces. it should be part of our national strategy to make sure young people are coming into adulthood fit and nourished. snap is a gateway to healthier eating. many people who are overweight are actually food insecure. when people are faced with not having enough money to pay groceries, they make rational economic choices about the numbers of " feelings of full" they can get from one dollar. they turn to foods that are high in sodium or carbs. by getting people enough money

to afford nutritious food, by giving people the ability to go to the grocery store and buy food that is demographically appropriate for their family, whether they have a senior our kids, that is a solid investment for the future of our country. it treats people with dignity, but it also invests in our future economic opportunities. host: charlotte is a republican in houston, texas. caller: i have friends on snap. she will have snap reduced $23 a month. who can buy anything for $23 a month? you included sodas, chips, and things of that nature. in the past, i remember those things were not allowed to be bought with an ebt or food stamps at the time. we need to be teaching, if

you're going to give snap out, we need to be teaching healthy eating also, or start programs in the community to grow your own food. our young, their food is so expensive. it is ridiculous. mothers have to feed these babies potatoes, starchy foods in order to stop the hunger pains. we need to be teaching healthy ways of the eating along with feeding them. sodas and chips? host: what do you think? guest: thank you, charlotte. there are programs feeding america supports that create nutrition education with the snap benefits so people have more information about the right kinds of foods to be eating. there are programs that allow

people to purchase fresh produce. it increases the amount of money available to them to buy food overall, if they are willing to buy fresh, healthy produce as part of their diet. the snap spending is having a powerful impact on helping people understand. feeding america food banks play a critical role in this. food is the basic medicine. you cannot expect people to recover from trauma, disease, or illness while they are malnourished. feeding america food banks are partnered with medical providers, insurers. their operating type two diabetes education programs where people are given boxes of healthy foods that are encouraged for resolving type 2 diabetes. you raise an important issue

about not just addressing hunger per se, but giving people nutritious pathways out of hunger so that they lead healthier lifestyles. host: i want to ask you about the requirements for work, if you are a snap recipient. the requirement is you must register for work and you must participate in required state-based training programs and take a job if it is offered, but a lot of the criticism is that there are a lot of exceptions to that rule. what do you think? guest: work requirements have not proven to be effective at creating opportunities and pathways to employment. it is better we err on the side of making sure people have access to skills development and make sure they are nourished and fed during the time they are out of work, because a fed person can have many problems but a hungry person only has one

problem. if they do not have access to food, they will spend their whole day making sure they have access to food. it is not reasonable to expect people to do good in job interviews or perform well on the job if they are showing up hungry. it is a debilitating condition and it is unreasonable to think that anyone aspiring to return to work will be able to do so if they wake up and go to bed every day on an empty stomach. host: derek in chicago,, illinois. caller: good morning c-span. let's focus on the real problem -- wealth inequality. if a corporate entity would give people a livable wage, that would lower the snap program let's face it.

the republican party voted against a minimum wage. every time they take control of congress, they talk about taking something from the poor. it happens on and on. " let's give these corporate entities these tax breaks." guest: it is true that food banks see many families who are very hard-working families, people who are getting up early in the morning, five to 6 to 7 days a week to go to work and try and generate enough income to pay for the increasingly expensive necessities, whether that be paying rent, buying gas for the car, and often times

food is the thing people cut back on. we see people at food distributions who tell us their stories, and their stories are so grounding and so compelling. it is heartbreaking to talk to someone working two full-time jobs and still not making enough money to pay for their monthly essentials. we talk to mothers who are skipping meals so their kids have enough to eat. 27% of the active duty military families in this country are struggling with food and security. as a food banker i created special distribution plans for military families in my communities, and it is heartbreaking to think that someone is wearing the uniform in our country in an area where they could be exposed to hostilities and they are thinking, "are my kids back in san diego going to have enough to eat today?"

that should be offensive to all of us and it should be something we should be able to solve as a nation. i am proud of the work that feeding america food banks due to feed families. we should make sure that military families have enough money -- host: eileen is on the line for snap beneficiaries. caller: thanks, c-span, and thank you, mr. hall for the, work you folks are doing. here in connecticut, we can get starter plants and seeds, if we have a place to grow our own vegetables.i i do not happen be in a place where i can do that, but i know a lot of folks who take advantage of it, and good for them.

last year in particular in the summertime there was a farmers market nearby that takes snap. we can go there, and we can use our snap benefits. that is local, fresh produce. i cannot speak highly enough of the chance to be able to get those benefits! i enjoy that very much. it is a little community thing. that does not happen in. a grocery store there is that -- it is a little community thing. that does not happen in a grocery store. it is an objective statement, and i do not have any judgment on it, but honestly last year with inflation the way it was in the grocery stores, it was almost the same price to go to a farmers market. like i said, the benefits of local, fresh is you can put the

$ on that you want -- the dollar signs on that you want. last year it was almost equal. thank you very much. guest: thank you, eileen for making that point. it is the case in many places that snap benefits can be used at a farmers market. it is a really good point you made about the ability of families to grow things at home. a lotto feeding america food banks help people understand how to grow food at home. there is also of course more that could be done to increase access to other nutritious foods through the snap program. there is more that could be done to help the nation's food banks provide healthy, fresh food and proteins. there is the emergency food

assistance program that moves food from farms to local food banks, and we are asking congress and the farm bill to increase funding for the emergency food assistance program from $250 million to $500 million so we has food banks can receive more of this essential, nutritious food and get that food to people in local communities. that idea of locally sourced food, locally sourced produce is something that tom vilsack has been really pioneering and investing in, and has created a local food purchasing agreement, which is a fancy way of saying they're making it possible for local food banks to receive more food directly from local farms, particularly farmers who have been disadvantaged in traditional practices. i am really glad you highlighted that today. host: chuck is next, republican

line, syracuse, new york. caller: i'm so glad you brought this up. i am so irritated with people turning to the government. we do have food banks. people could be going to the food banks to survive. i am a manager. we are constantly looking for people. there is a labor shortage. people cannot go to restaurants and use their cards because there is no one there. there is a labor shortage. the prisons in arizona are down to $1.25 a day to feed people. you can have multigrain bars. your guest is talking about cultural appropriate. if people are hungry, why did they care if it is culturally appropriate or not? we should not be in that business. i have people who work for me 15 hours a day and they are not turning to the government.

if we have food banks, wire people even turning to snap -- why are people even turning to snap? guest: we have to clear up a misconception that food banks have an infinite capacity to help people in need. that is not the case, unfortunately. as innovative and resourceful as local food banks are, they still fall short of meeting all of the need every day. to give you a sense of how powerful and important the snap program is, consider this -- the snap program provides 9 meals for everyone meal provided by all of america's food banks combined. there is a massive amount of failure and success that rests in the snap program. even a modest cut in the snap program has a massive impact on america's food banks. host: eric is next, antioch,

california, independent line. caller: i have two opinions on this. i work in retail. i see what the amount is on their card when i ring them up. families should be getting way more. i see a lot of guys, people who are not working minimal, and they are getting snap. that group needs to be cut out. they need to get jobs. need to get off their butt and get to work. they're not on the unemployment thing anymore because they have not worked in so long. whereas other families i know not even have a car. they need more. that is how i just feel about it. guest: there are work requirements and the snap program. the truth is, like i said before, 45% of the families on

snap have children in the household. snap is mainly about children, senior citizens, people with disabilities, and they got portion of people who are of working status are working. we have to think about the fact that when people work full-time time and account for their expenses, they are still eligible for snap benefits. that is a mathematical formula that in a very objective way says, "these families are not making enough money, despite working full time, to be able to afford the necessities of life>" that is a deeper issue we need to start having a conversation about. host: vince hall, thank you for joining us. coming up, author jeff quinn discusses the 1993 siege of the branch davidian compound in texas. we are marking the 30th

anniversary of that tragedy this year. at first, it is open forum. you can start calling in now. ♪ >> sunday on q and a, columbia university history professor matthew connelly, author of "the declassification engine," talks about the increase in u.s.'s secrecy and the harm he believes it is causing. >> whether we are talking about covert operations, or plans, nuclear war plans these are -- war plans, nuclear war plans, these are issues i have tried to study. when i started to look more closely what i found is departments and agencies who

even after 25 years, when they are subpar stew -- supposed to automatically declassified this information, is they find some reason not to declassify it. host: -- >> matthew connelly with his book "the declassification engine" on c-span's q --. -- c-span's q and a. >> tell your smart speaker " play c-span radio

c-span, powered by cable. >> there are almost 80 new members in the 118th congress and this new group features a record number of women and minorities. c-span interviewed more than half of them about their careers and political philosophy. tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern, here from my gazelle, valerie fuji,, greg because our, jeff jackson, and mark offered. watch members of the 100 18th congress on c-span or online at c-span -- 100 eighteenths congress on the seas -- the 118th congress on c-span or online at c-span.org. >> a look at slavery reparations from a variety of perspectives

with columbia university professor andrew del banco. history professor, alicia norwood talks about the role black women played during the reconstruction era. exploring the american story. watch american history tv every weekend and find a ful program -- ♪ >> c-spanshop.org is c-span's online store. browse through our latest c-span products, home decor, and accessories. every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations. ♪ host: welcome back to washington journal. it is open forum.

i will take your calls up until 9:00 a.m. eastern time so if you would like to call in and weigh in on anything public affairs or politics related, yesterday was the first anniversary of the russian invasion of ukraine. here is an article from abc news, "biden ruling out for now sending f-16s to ukraine." " despite repeated public calls from ukrainian president zelenskyy, president biden has ruled out sending american fighter jets to defend against a russian spring offensive. he told david near on the first -- muir on the first anniversary of the invasion." here is a bit of that exchange. take a look.

[video clip] >> we know the germans are sending tanks in, but we know president zelenskyy continues to say what he really needs our f-16s. will you send him f-16s? >> we are sending him what we think his military needs right now. he needs tanks, he needs air defense, but there are things he needs now that we are sending him to put him in a position to be able to make gains this spring and summer. >> you don't think he needs f-16s now? >> no, he doesn't need f-16s now. >> does that mean never? >> there is no basis upon which there is a rationale, according to our military now, to provide f-16s. >> but you are not ruling it out? >> i am ruling it out for now.

host: that was the president talking about that. here is reuters u.s. -- " u.s. warns the u.n. not to be -- antony blinken warned the united nations security council on friday that it should not be fooled by calls for a temporary or unconditional cease-fire in ukraine, saying an enduring peace cannot allow russia to rest and rearm. we want to share with you a bit of economic news. here is the new york times with the headline, " the measure of inflation speeds up." it says, " there was a moment late last year where everything seemed to be going to the federal reserve's plan. consumers were pulling back and the overheated economy was gently cooling, but a new spate of fresh data, including warring

figures released friday make it clear that the road ahead will be bumpier and more treacherous than expected. we will start taking your calls now for open forum. let's go to jay in fredericksburg, virginia. independent. caller: i missed speaking to the previous speaker, however, 1.i wanted to make was my children, a family of -- one point i wanted to make was my children, a family of 4 live with me. with their car broke down, they drove my mercedes to the food bank. you never know what a person's situation is. i would have asked if there is a way for people to sort out what they do not use from the food bank before they leave.

those are two points i wanted to make. their car had broken down. they drove my mercedes. host: joshua is next in san francisco, california. are you getting snow out there, joshua? caller: it is just a little cold. last month was pretty much the most rain ever, really, but i am glad we are past that. host: go ahead with what you wanted to talk about. caller: we were talking about food, and making provisions for people and stuff like that with the person in charge of foods and distribution. before that there was a talk about gun violence and 55% of it had to do with suicide.

host: i think it was 56%. caller: 56% -- you are right. to me they coincided. i think of the bible, right? people would ask jesus, " jesus, i am hungry, do you have some food?" "if you knew who you were speaking to, you would ask for the eternal food and water." people are hungry they do not know how to deal with these things that are right in your face. the churches have been closed down. there is covid, there are different kind of diseases . the food is more expensive. where are the leaders that are going to rise up for these

things that are empty? people are empty. that is why they are killing themselves, because they have no hope. we have to get back to those things that made america strong like freedom and get back to the church and read the bible and character. it is not the money. there are so much money. it is the character of people, i think that is so important. host: let's get to ray next in fremont, california. caller: good morning. i want to talk about the food issue and the hunger issue because i think, i just read that one out of six children in america is actually hungry. we should be the greatest country in the world. the greatest country the world has ever seen! we do not seem to have a lot of empathy for the suffering of

others, and that really worries me. right now it seems like we have a congress that despises the general population. no one should be hungry in the united states. we have plenty of food available. we have plenty of money available, but are congress chooses not to use it to support the population. that is very sad because part of the preamble to the constitution says to promote the general welfare of the people. there is more in there than just military issues. the thing about the snap program , it is such a small part of the budget. i do not even think -- what is it 1% or 2%, something of that nature? i am asking people to develop a little more empathy and contact

your -- host: i have that number for you. it is 1.2 trillion over 10 years, that is what the cbo has estimated that the snap program would cost. let's go to tie in fort mills, california. caller: i want to talk about -- i keep hearing so much about fentanyl -- and i have a couple points i want to make. no one forced fentanyl down nobody's throats. we have a problem over here, the demand for drugs. if we did not have the demand, we would not have the sentinel problem. they are saying all of these people are coming across the border and bringing fentanyl over here. if it was not sentinel, it would be something -- fentanyl, it

would be something else. democrats do not know how to explain things. the last thing i want to say is the border thing. i keep hearing all this stuff about the border, border, border. i'm looking at ukraine, and i do not have a problem with it, but the money we are giving them, the money we spend in afghanistan and all of these other places. look at haiti. we spend $30 billion a year just in the aid we give them. these countries are in our backyard. you look at nicaragua and all of these countries people are coming from, we have robbed from them. we have used up their land and all of this stuff like that. host: take a look at this article from npr because we were talking about fentanyl earlier.

it says politicians say they will end fentanyl dealers. i said --it said that president biden said this week that he wanted to surge -- there is fierce bipartisan pressure in washington right now to do whatever it takes to stop mexican drug cartels smuggling illicit fentanyl over the border, but reporting by npr found a broad consensus among drug policy experts that strategies now being put forward are not realistic. sylvia is next in virginia, republican line. caller: my husband and i have a grocery store. he did not. have snap years ago i begged him to get it because there are people here, they do not have the jobs unless you create your jobs. it has been a blessing,

especially at christmas time. i saw a little fella and a family come in. they really needed the snap program and getting everything they needed for christmas dinner. i am right by their house. i am so thankful that my husband finally got snap in the store. thank you. host: lee is in raleigh, north carolina, line for democrats. caller: good morning and thank you, c-span. i think you are a bright spot in the media world. i want to comment in terms of something that leads to all of the pranks and stunts being done on the border. there is a real truism -- if we hire them, they will come. instead of going to the southern border, all of these loud critics -- i am a democrat and i believe in a rational migration policy, but

that includes sending people back if they are claiming asylum status incorrectly. at the same time, some of the loudest critics of what is happening at our southern border turn a blind eye within their own state borders, and allow huge corporations that are very profitable to hire many, many illegal or undocumented workers. they say nothing about enforcing employment laws. i think we have to have an evenhanded policy, if we are going to force employment laws as well as protest people coming across the border. i do thank you. host: dawn is in new orleans, louisiana -- don is in new orleans, louisiana. caller: this lenten season, i

would think red meat and chicken is going up and seafood is going up. the price of red meat is going down, fish, seafood, going up. all of our culture is tied to food. christmas, thanksgiving, easter. all of these cultural events are tied to food. in new orleans i have been working in the hospitality industry for over a decade. restaurants, hotels, schools, they throw out a lot of food because of the expiration date on it. we throw away a lot of food because of expiration and spoilage. the thing about inflation is we talk about food and food insecurity. why is inflation tied to wages only? we are not so much having tensions -- pensions anymore. there are 401ks and wages all the -- are the bellwether of

inflation. we look at actors and professional athletes -- lebron james pays the highest percentage of federal tax, and he pays 13.5% state tax. he makes $20 million a year. he is paying $10.5 million of that in texas. the wealthy get wealthier because they are not gaining based on salary or wages. they are based on stock options and stocks. why aren't employees afforded an opportunity to have stock purchases at a higher level. you could get more vacation time. we need to have those types of securities. host: that is all the time we have for open forum.

coming up next is author jeff gwynn. he discusses the 1993 siege of the branch davidian complex near waco, texas and the aftermath of that event. >> book tv, every sunday on c-span two features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. at 8:00 p.m. eastern arthur laffer shares his book taxes have consequences where he argues that history shows tax rates effect economic growth and productivity. at 10:00 p.m., tom benson takes a look at the immigration issues at the u.s. southern border in his book "overrun," he is interviewed by jenny tear. watch book tv every sunday on c-span two and find a phone

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session following a break for the presidential holiday. tuesday morning the house host the hearing on country chinese communist party in the house armed service committee his from defense a party -- defense party officials on support for ukraine. merrick garland testifies before the senate judiciary committee on oversight of the justice department. watch next week live on c-span network or on c-span now our free video mobile app. go to c-span.org for scheduling information or stream video live or on any time. c-span your unfiltered view of government. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. i'm joined by jeff guinn the author of the book waco, branch davidians and legacy of rage. it has been 30 years since that event.

welcome to the program. take us back to early 1993. what was going on? who was david and who are the branch davidians? guest: they were a breakaway group from the seventh church that originally separated in the 1930's and by 1993 they were settled on 77 acres of property outside of waco texas david karesh was the leader and accepted by them as a prophet who was the land from the book of revelation who with his followers was going to lead a battle against the government to bring about the end of time or the end of days and a new holy kingdom on earth afterward. the branch davidians were accepted as strange but otherwise left alone by their

waco neighbors. they come to the attention of the fbi and the atf. there were charges they had illegal automatic weapons and other things involving abuse of children, polygamy, statutory rape of young children. there were a lot of rumors though nothing had been definitively proven. host: how many people were living there at the time? guest: in the building, mount caramel, described as a compound which sounds more sinister, there were about 130 people, of those may be 90-95 were adults in the lesser teenager and children. they were self-contained. host: you mentioned a lot of rumors. but they -- atf served a warrant. what happened then? guest: atf had heard from

disenchanted former members of the branch davidians as well as delivery man who brought strange ominous packages to mount caramel that the branch davidians were accumulating an arsenal of illegal automatic weapons and legally purchased semiautomatic weapons and pieces to convert them to automatic. they had not registered each of these weapons as they were supposed to nor paid the fees in evolved -- and balance. according to the members, branch davidians were preparing for mass suicide or plans to break out into civilian waco and start a fire fight which branch davidians believed would precipitate the end of days. the atf was also convinced there was a drug lab at mount carmel.

child protective services have been investigating child abuse punishment of children physical punishment and possibility of statutory rape by david karesh of under age young women. the atf got a warrant to be able to conduct a raid on mount carmel. the purpose of the raid was t arrest david karesh and take possession of any illegal weapons that might be found. it's my subheading when into the raid it was all based on the element of surprise and three days from now, 30 years from the day atf attempted a rate was 76 agents, they thought they would catch the branch davidians by surprise, they did not.

a fire fight ensued and then that culminated in a siege and a tragic fire to the fakes of which we are still filling three decades later. -- the effects of which we are still dealing with three decades later. host: we are taking your calls. if you remember this from 30 years ago or your recollection, you got a question, give us a call. our lives are by region. eastern/central timezones, 202-748-8000. mountain/pacific timezones, 202-748-8001. you can send us a text at 202-748-8003 and we are on social media. let's go back to the initial fire fight. who started that? who fired that first shot? guest: that starts the

controversy really. according to the members of atf, 76 of their agents approached mount carmel building inside two cattle cars and this is ranch country in texas and cattle trailers were familiar sites. it was assumed the branch davidians would think some ranchers had taken the wrong turn of their driveway. mount carmel was built on a sloping hill. it was in the ust of the hill. there was a long dre late leaving -- leading up to it. if you he thought they were taking the branch davidians by rprise and they could storm out of the trailers announce themselves and go to the front door. they also believed all the automatic weapons the branch davidians had accumulated were kept in a locked room and had to be hoping and be distributed --

it will have to be open and distributed before a firefight to be possible. the branch davidians knew in advance atf was about to arrive. the guys were in hand and shooting immediately started freed four of the 76 agents were killed and another six were wounded and five branch davidians initially died. several more wounded. as to who fired first, according to atf, the bullet started raining down on them the minute the trailers open their doors in -- and the ages began to emerge. according to the branch davidians, the ages exited, david koresh opened the front door as the ages, please hold your buyer, there is women and children and the agent started shooting to defend themselves. each side is clearly in the belief 30 years later the survivors of each side that the

other one started it. in my interviews and years of research i talked to some members of the waco media would also been alerted that the rate is going to take place and it was no surprise to anybody but atf and these members of the media who were watching from across the room unanimously believed the fire he began from inside the compound at the agents. there's never going to be unanimous agreement. host: there is a 51 day standoff. what was happening during the 51 days? guest: during the standoff, mount carmel was surrounded. not just by ages at the fbi that took over after the first failed atf attempt to take mount carmel, but also by army supporters vehicles including

tanks, the fbi was not going to take a chance that branch davidians exited with automatic weapons that they would not have enough firepower to stop them. fbi negotiators continued talking to david koresh and his number two steve snyder trying to convince the branch davidians the come out peacefully branch davidians on one occasion promise they would come out. he reneged on that according to the fbi, according to david koresh, god told him to wait. it lasted 51 days. fbi negotiators wanted to keep talking. fbi tacticians wanted to end the thing created there's concern any moment branch davidians might come out shooting. eventually the tacticians won

and on the 51st day fbi attempted to move the branch davidians from mount carmel by inserting teargas in a noncombustible container and did finally come out when their eyes were irritated enough. instead all of the gas was inserted within a few hours, great cause of it filled the halls of mount carmel about noon on april 19, a fire broke out and golfed the whole building within minutes. temperatures reached an estimated 3000°. only nine people escaped. 76 including children died. host: there were congressional hearings after that. one of the hearings back in 1983 tell us.

the hearings in 1993 told us essentially what we still know or simply known today. there is no coherent reason why those steps were taken on april 19 they did not follow a plan the attorney general thought she had explained to for the gas to be over two days. why did it go in at once? there were questions of whether the branch davidians fired at the fbi agent that morning are they did not. -- that's morning or they did not. there is controversy. david koresh they were -- had promised they would go out peacefully. the fbi thought he was bluffing. because so many mistakes was

made on the part of both federal agencies and things done wrong by the branch davidians, whether there was some great conspiracy in place. whether it was a plan by united states government to simply wipe out a group of peaceful, gun owning christian americans. the conspiracy theories continue in their use as a basis as ground zero for terrible things that have happened since. host: i want to show viewers a piece from the c-span archives of those hearings back in 1993. april, nine days after the waco fire between democratic congressman john conyers and attorney general janet reno. [video clip] >> i like you to note there is at least one member in the congress that is not going to rationalize the death of two dozen children there were not

cultists, they're not nuts, there are not criminals. they were initially does -- they were innocently trap in there. these agencies blame extreme criticism. it is not president clinton's thought. he has taken your advice is. he has taking judge sessions otherwise. he is taken mr. powell's advice. i want to get straight answers. i read so many conflicting rationales about this, that it is embarrassing. i have been through each of these incidents i cited. doesn't anybody have historical recollection in federal law-enforcement of how to deal with these kinds of people? i yield the bounds of my time

for anything you like to respond to me. >> i have not tried to rationalize the death of children congressman. i feel more strongly about it then you will ever know, but i have neither tried to rationalize the death of four atf agents and i will not walk away from a compound where atf agents have been killed by people who knew they were agents and leave them on surrounded. i will not authorize a military excursion with the forces of the military of that compound with a direct assault such as what you might expect in military situation. i will stand by and be proud of fbi as it use restrained most of all, i would not engage in criminalization. i will look to the future and learn everything i can from the situation cowboy tragedy as this in the future -- for the situation to avoid tragedy in the future. host: your reaction to the

change? guest: it is typical reaction from both sides. the political accusers have to play to an audience. you're upsetting the people. if any innocent people die, children die in a conflict that was not necessary, it is not only a tragedy, it is something that has to be examined and people have to with the decisions have to be brought to book for them. the problem was in terms of what happened in waco, the fbi and atf never had any understanding of what the branch davidians believed and why they would not come out if the leader told them not to and why they actually believed that if they died at the hands of the agents, it was a gift from god, a reward from -- for helping start the end times. at the same time, janet reno

also correct in that laws were being broken. dangerous, illegal automatic weapons were being stockpiled by a group that is intended to use them in a battle against the government. whether the government instigated it or if they did not, that he did to fight -- they needed to fight. everything that has happened since and you can hear the pain in the voice of the congressman. of course, there is pain. children died who do not need to. janet reno, laws are being broken and that the fbi had wanted to kill everyone in that building, they had the means to do so for 51 days. it would not have to wait at all if that was their intention. we have a situation where they are all kinds of bad judgment on every side of this issue. that is why it is worth studying now because if remains

unresolved, the resentment only linger, they fester in our country. host: that is what i wanted to ask you and we will get the cause after this. the subtitle of your book is david koresh the branch davidians and legacy of rage. what is that rate? -- that legacy? guest: the best proof of legacy came two days after the burn of mount carmel. in -- timothy mcveigh blew up a federal building in oklahoma city killing hundreds including many children. after he was captured he said he did what he did in retaliation for mount carmel. we have to get back to the government what they give to us. that incident in 1993 fostered a growing movement of armed

militia in america. it has been tried. over the years, hundreds of antigovernment armed militias spreading up and about all of them claimed they were doing this so that there would not be another waco in their community. alex jones, the podcaster of the great note, preempted memorial service there a couple years later memorializing the branch davidians to say that from now on if there is anything like it, it would not happen again. and that was his first national attempt for attention and he succeeded. i goes up to march 6, 2021 -- it goes up to march 6, 2021, the center grow to the assault on the capital cut 13th become a militia man.

they said in response to waco. if you look at any of the website some these militia organizations and they are there to see, several of them cite waco as the reason for their existence. we have to make sure it does not happen again. host: let's start taking calls. visit in pennsylvania, good morning. caller: good morning. i did not think this topic was going to go the way it did. i am impressed. our member that well. i remember that well. i remember the documentaries that came out. what is concerning was big government telling people what religion they could practice, what they cannot practice.

i do not recollect any of those people killing anybody or having means to have what happened happened other than big government. like ruby ridge and things like that. there was so much discussed, my head is spinning with questions. i like the direction this is going. thank you. host: jeff? guest: the whole idea that this was repression of religious freedom, this is a critical point that is also a critical mistake that was made by the federal agencies. the belief of the branch davidians, their religious foundation of reasons for collecting the guns and preparing to use them, was never considered by the atf or fbi. the fbi called the branch davidians believes bible ba bble.

they had no understanding, here was a group that truly believed that god had instructed them to prepare for this final battle that the book of revelations was going to be finally carried out in the day -- and david koresh was the lamb who was going to lead the struggle. if they had known that, if they had taken the time to learn that they would have realized that some kind of direct assault was never, ever going to work. in fact, the kind of assault atf launch fit perfectly with david koresh had preached bible and we try to do with the believers. their religious beliefs had nothing to do with atf and fbi did. they are breaking the law and the agents of atf and fbi are tasked with -- to arrest

lawbreakers. on the others, branch davidians had no interest in secular law. they were aware to an extent they were breaking laws and could be held account for it but they did not care. secular law meant nothing to them. they believe their appalling instructions of god which took precedent. they were with those guns and with the intent of at some point having an armed confrontation where people must die to fulfill the prophecies and revelations. as you can see, nobody understood anybody else, but there is never any intent on part of the government to suppress religious freedom. is religious freedom acceptable when it includes not only breaking secular laws, but pointing towards an ultimate

goal of an arm shootout? that is what it was going to come to so far as the branch davidians were concerned and tragically as he wants they were right. --in one since they were right. host: can you talk about how atf and fbi has changed since this tragedy and rules of engagement? guest: that is something that has been overlooked in the years since. fbi and atf made terrible mistakes and judgment in terms of what they did at mount carmel. atf learned from this that they did not have the resources to plan an all-out multi force operation against well armed numerous lawbreakers. they will have to scale back. the fbi took a terrible

criticism and much of it justified for their actions at mount carmel and in the years since we occasionally had standoffs between -- where they had standoffs between militias and government, never again has there been federal agents troublingly -- struggling and saying we did our best and now we're coming in hell or high water. there has been more restraint. the problem is that fbi and a couple ways directly after mount carmel tried to hide to some of the mistakes that were made. they were caught. skeptical people can say, with some justification, if they lied about that, maybe they are lying about everything. the seeds of mistrust were sown and we have to understand why things happened. not just what happened, but why and how to get past this ongoing

belief that was just big government going out to stop innocent citizens. that was not the case. host: alan in tennessee. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm not here to defendant david koresh but i will defend the truth. the first thing he keep saying over and over that automatic weapons were found at the compound and david koresh was stockpiling. if you are a gun dealer, your stock -- your stockpile is called your inventory and the defense was never allowed to have the experts present -- examining the guns found their. when it came time to examine them to make sure they were automatic weapons, no one was allowed to examine them. the fbi lied to a federal judge to get military equipment there.

the fbi lied to a federal judge to get military equipment. there are no drugs on the compound -- where no drugs on the compound. there are no assertions that there were drugs there. the fbi lied because they needed better equipment. the other thing is, who shot first? the key piece of budget -- evidence to address that is the front door to the compound. it was stolen. doj stole the most important piece of evidence to determine who shot first. host: let's get a response. guest: there are a whole lot wrong with what al said because it is fueled by personal interests. an arsenal does not necessarily mean illegal weapons.

it is not meet all of them were. when you see the fbi lied to get tanks -- said the fbi lied to get tanks, you are incorrect. the atf incorrectly claimed there was a drug lab at mount carmel and they use this to get permission to use national guard helicopters as part of the initial operation. they were wrong about that. it has been proven since and you're right it was not the fbi lying to get tanks. drawing to make an assumption like that -- if you're going to make an exception -- an assumption like that, identify the correct agency that did it. host: he also talked about the fbi stilling the front door? guest: there were a door and parts of mount carmel roof where there could have been evident of whom was firing in and out.

there was a terrible, cflict and a lot was burned and loss. it is also true in a terrible fbi misjudgment that these moderate remains of mount carmel was bulldozed, part of the door it was thought to have been saved, when the child came up, the surviving branch davidians, it was not there and that look suspicious we do not know what happened. we also do not know it was the fbi or the doj that stole something like that anymore then we can tell for sure who fired those first shots. what we are hearing from people like the gentleman from tennessee is frustration that is festered for 30 years. as investors, -- as it festers,

the suspicions grow. that is why it is important to take a look. things people say they believe is fact turns out to be true. fbi aligned -- fbi lying about a drug lab to get tanks do not happen at all and some are convinced it did. how do you change your mind 30 years after the fact? that is the hard part. host: regarding who and pers, take a look at this segment from c-span book tv -- regarding who fired first, take a look at this segment from c-span tv. a survivor of the branch of the end compound and he talks about the initial rate. [video clip] >> atf claims it was an ambush and they were outgunned. if we were a group of close" cultus i want to kill federal authorities and we had fully

automatic weapons and machine guns and we had 45 minutes where he knew they were coming and we are laying in wait for them, i am here to tell you, unless we are terrible shots, not one of those agents when i walked out of the cattle trailer. there was no plan. they just who died died 20 minutes in the gunbattle. we have videotape of agent stand behind cars, standing up, shooting in the second story of the building for all the kids are like it is a set of a rambo movie and yet they have been ambushed, they were outgunned. this story from day one never made any sense. host: that was david the author of a book called a place called waco, a survivor story. he was jailed after the seizure but really soon after. you can watch temple event at c-span.org.

let's take a call from waco, texas. james, good morning. caller: come morning -- good morning. it is known the sheriff at the time had a pretty good relationship with david koresh and he will go up there and check on him and he knew him. he was unaware that the fbi was even reading at the time and a lot of people say if they wanted him, they could've called the sheriff and he could've had david koresh come in. i wanted to know if the gentleman knows anything about that. guest: i do. you are absolutely right. jack, the clinton county sheriff could have been the hero of the whole situation if given the opportunity. the sheriff department initially called in atf to consult when a

delivery driver had reported to them a package that he had tried to deliver to mount carmel that are broken open and direct gunpowder and other suspicious articles in it the sheriff department caught in atf to consult and ultimately thought they were working with atf to plan something to act on it. sheriff says later he has passed away now, i did not talk to him personally but i did talk to other journalists he talked to and trusted in the aftermath of waco. he felt that atf after a certain amount of time did not consult with the sheriff's department any longer about their plans and said to quite a few people, he had a good relationship with david koresh when he would've suggested if asked to walk up to

the front door and knocked and said hey, david, there is a problem here. some agents need to talk to you. can you come to my office? he thought david koresh would have come. instead atf launched its ill begotten raid and not the sheriff felt frustrated and he was also frustrated by the reaction of many people seeing government conspiracy and the violent reactions that were in repayment for waco. his exact quote and i believe arms correct in this -- his exact quote was people believe people say waco is the reason they are doing these things but i think it is the excuse they used to do what they want to do anyway. i wish atf had consulted him more. host: we have a tweet from lisa

says, was not there an undercover atf agent inside the branch davidian compound for several weeks before the siege? why did atf not follow his recommendations and not raid mount carmel? guest: that is the crux of why this has happened in one critical way. atf had tried to place eight agents undercover as guarantor property across the street from mount carmel supposedly to keep a 24/7 check on everything the branch davidians were doing and to get a sense of when david koresh might leave the compound area so he could be arrested by himself without any other involved. the problem was the undercover agents were spectacularly incompetent. there is no video record like the one they are supposed to keep because they cannot figure out how to use the cameras. one of these undercover agents,

robert rodriguez, who gave his name to branch davidians as gonzales, went over to mount carmel. he got to talk to a lot of the davidian's including david koresh and was invited to some of their bible studies. our drink is -- rodriguez was aware of the morning of february 28 1993 that branch davidians had learned atf raid was imminent. he was in mount carmel when david koresh was notified that the atf was coming. and even though david koresh had relies rodriguez was an undercover agent he had not acknowledged it, but he knew it. he allowed rodriguez to leave the compound and rodriguez contacted the agent who was second in command of the operation about to take place,

chuck sarah been, and told him, they know we are coming. rodriguez wanted the raid called off. chuck thought that the guns of the branch davidians were in a locked storeroom and ordered the raid to go ahead anyway, but the guns were already in everyone's room and atf ran into a buzz saw. that mistake was horrendous. he was called -- he was found guilty of trying to cover it up and he was originally dismissed for atf or that. the labor board order him reinstated and he was sent to a desk job. in saying there -- there is no conspiracy is not to say curtis

decisions were made -- there are no horrendous decisions made. chuck who decided to ignore what robert rodriguez told him deserve an awful lot of disk credit for what happened. host: ron in pennsylvania. caller: david koresh was another jim jones. religious heckler -- religious hhitler. tim mcveigh also spawned other hate groups. we have over 783 hate groups in this country. that's what we should be worried about not people coming across the border but the head groups spawned by people like david koresh and jim jones and i would

like to say you also have somebody come on here your program and get the truth out so we can all hear both sides of the story. host: he talked about the relationship between hate groups and militias. we have a question from twitter who says, waco, was of engagement. -- rules of engagement. what does the gas think about that documentary? guest: i try not to comment on other people's work in that everybody can form opinions based on the fact they believe them. for was of engagement i'm not familiar enough with all of it. to speak with any great authority on it. host: also a question from steve on twitter who says, i never understood why a fire truck was

not on-site. law enforcement was out there for a week. did anybody not think there might be a fire? guest: that is an excellent question and the branch davidians was shuttering inside mount carmel knew they were in a fire trap. the building was made from scrap. there is no electricity. the fbi had cut that off. it was still cold in the heat inside mount carmel was provided by lanterns that had to use fuel and a fire to get going. a fire was always possible. on the day of the final conflict -- consecration, april 19, 1993, once the blaze broke out, this awful fire, it is in place and in our memories -- emblazoned in

our memories. the fbi held the fire trucks back an additional 15 minutes because they were afraid some of those lives in mount carmel had to automatic weapons and might still be shooting. there would not let the fire personnel get closer. that meant the fire had to burn itself out in a did it with all the people inside except nine survivors it would've been a great idea to have fire trucks ready at any time but that did not happen. we are talking about errors in judgment. host: robert in daytona beach, florida. hi. caller: hello, c-span. it boils down to one simple fact , you had the place surrounded,

wait them out. a month, six months, a year. we are dealing with that many woman, children, you do not assault the building, ever for any reason. the people that did assault that building and all those people died, i blame them and i will always blame them. host: jeff , a reaction? couldn't they have waited it out? guest: of course. they should have waited it out. there is no argument about that. one thing that i think needs to be said and i say this, first, i want to clarify, i haven't divided -- i have interviewed surviving branch davidians, but the fact of the matter is there were three groups basically who came in the conflict and that is

when waco happened. atf, fbi, branch davidians. for the two government agencies, atf and fbi, the best possible result for them, the result that they wanted, even though they did things that were against it, was for everyone to come out a live. no one have a scratch, another drop of blood be shed. the fact they found a self as situation was original intent. the only group where death was a part of the agenda the branch davidians believed that the lamb and his followers had to die to fulfill the prophecies and revelations so they could be translated back by god to lead a final fight against babylon.

the only ones that expected this and looked at it as a reward was the branch davidians. host: congress reopened investigations into waco in 1995. here's a portion from the congressional hearings of atf director john. he responds to those concerns about gun rights in america. [video clip] >> make no mistake, i take all criticism of atf to hard. if criticism is fair, i will move to correct the problem. if criticism is unfair or unfounded, i would defend our bureau with equal vigor. atf is no threat to private ownership of firearms. the law-abiding citizens have no reason to question our agenda. in the area of firearms, our

mission is simple, to combat gun violence. the more successful we are in keeping guns away from criminals and prosecuting those who use guns in crime, the less impotence there is for more gun control. atf is a neutral regulator. they are neither pro-gun or anti-gun. the bureau is tasked equitably enforcing the law passed by congress, and permitting regulations, and collecting taxes. there are many who do not trust our motives. the perception we pose a threat to the general firearm on the ship could lead to actions by this body and others as have occurred in the past that would cripple our crime-fighting efforts. i strongly believe only the criminal will benefit from weakening of atf.

state and local law enforcement will lose. the victims of gun violence will lose. given those interested in less gun control will lose. host: that was the then director of atf. what is your reaction to that? guest: the best response to that would be something i heard from one of the over two dozen agents who were interviewed in the mount carmel initial operation. this fellow bill buford said atf is always painted as anti-gun and the nra has tried to make atf is punching bag for decades. buford pointed out it's correct to say, almost every atf agent involved in waco was a gun owner, a hunter. atf agents are pro-gun ownership, but legal gun

ownership. the thing that always gets loss mostly because people do not want to think about it is that illegal guns were being constructed and cash aid -- cached at mount carmel. branch davidians were breaking the law and atf for all of its ponderings and fbi afterwards for all of their blunderings for the desk that did not have to happen and yet law was being broken and the agencies of the government who are post to enforce those laws were acting as they were supposed to, at least initially. host: rob in kansas. hi. caller: good morning. i hope you mentioned in your book that david koresh was a pedophile, they're emancipating

girls as young as 11 years of age to say they're going to be in the light which means they are allowed to marry david koresh, have sex with him or whatever. anybody who thinks he was a hero, he was a cultist who was a pedophile. that is a fact. i hope you mentioned that in your book. that takes every conspiracy a way of what we are talking about. those who want to defend him how to defend his actions on that account as well. this whole thing came on the hills of the jamestown tragedy where a senator was killed. 900 people died in jamestown. 1000 terrible thing -- that was a terrible thing. timothy mcveigh killed and philip the federal building -- and blew up the federal building and people justified his actions like, waco happened so he was

justified. was osama bin laden justified? as far as 51 days he was given, i wish george floyd had 51 minutes timeout before he lost his life. he was given for the uptime -- 20 uptime and the government is current in the action it took. guest: you are correct about david koresh is a pedophile. during my research i interviewed dichter goering, defense lawyer in texas, engaged and he told me he was certain he would've gotten david koresh off on any charges involving the death of the atf agents that he believed he could have had a jury in waco believe that these atf agents coming up with their guns that the branch davidians had a right

to take their weapons and shoot at them if they felt threatened. then i asked, if you got him off that charge, what about the other charges they're going to come against him, particularly the fact that he committed statutory rape on girls as young as 10? he shook his head and smiled ruefully and said someone else would've had to defend him on those charges. you're correct in these things about david koresh. some of his followers to this day believe even in this, david koresh was only doing what god told him to do. as far as the other things you said, there have been tragedies, a lot of them, almost all of them unnecessary. waco seems to have the longest tail in that from oklahoma city to the capitol assault a couple of years ago that people are using it as a reason to do the

things they wanted to do anyway. it is important to understand the things that happened. not trying to avoid blaming people who deserve blame making sure this is not built into a terrible thing and never was. host: larry in arizona. you are on the air. caller: yes. i witnessed a whole episode from beginning to end and from the very beginning i was horrified by what i was seeing, but the end, the very end of this whole operation by the atf when it was all said and done and the place had been burnt to the ground and everybody in it was dead, they ran their tracks and their tanks back and forth across the ashes

and then they raised an atf like, a blue flag with white lettering, in the front of agree on that. what does it say about their intentions and their mentality of that whole operation? to destroy a crime scene, guest: here's the thing, someone got the wrong agency or blaming the wrong agency for something should not have happened. atf was only involved in waco on the first day every 28. -- february 28 and then after that the fbi took over. we talk about atf running is tanks, atf was not involved then. that was the fbi and the army. in terms of raising a flag, atf like on the flagpole, during the

siege there was branch davidian banner raised on a flagpole. there was someone, -- there was someone, not atf, ran up the atf flag in memory of the agents who had died there. that is in questionable taste for some and others recognizing their other victims, other deaths involved beyond the branch davidians. you cannot blame atf made by the decision to not things down immediately after the fire because atf was not running things anymore. it was the fbi. host: in 1999, 6 years later, former senator appointed as special counsel by janet reno.

what was behind that decision? guest: it had come out that the fbi had not been candid about the fact on earlier occasions on the final day combustible military rows had been use to fire gas. when attorney general reno had been promised by the fbi that would not happen. there was a growing suspicion that these combustible rounds started the fire. they were fired around 6:00 a.m. in the fire did not start until noon. there is also the question of whether a couple of the atf agents involved, including chuck sarabyn had tried to alter documents showing why they had done what they did. there are the suspicions and so senator danford was tasked going in and investigate. he did but it is also true he

made preliminary statements before the investigation was complete -- concluded that the fbi was not at fault for anything. a lot of people got the sense that this was a government cover up which is more conspiracy. by 1999, all the suspicions aroused, but things still were not investigated completely. government officials did not want to find things that reflected badly. people who do not trust the government did not want to accept the fact that may the government had not had a step-by-step elaborate plan to bring about these awful consequences. it has been a mess ever since. that is why it is time to finally stop shouting and stop accusing and look at the actual facts. they are there if you want to look at them.

host: dennis in denver, colorado. hi. caller: good morning. david koresh regularly went to waco texas to do things. once every 10 days, everybody knew that. they could have arrested him then. it would not have have to write that compound. that tear gas they put in the compound there they knew that shut off the electricity, everything -- there were candles everywhere, open flames. they knew there's going to be a fire. 40 miles went that day. i watched that think happened. it was unbelievable.

they could have delete -- arrested david koresh anytime they wanted to. they wanted to show how tough atf and fbi. guest: he is right. david koresh did occasionally go into town and could have been arrested away from mount carmel. atf undercover house bungled keeping track of david koresh and they were the ones that support it is their superiors he no longer left the compound. atf as it did in other instances leading to this tragedy simply had been -- bad information and accepted it as fact. in terms of the fbi knowing there's going to be a fire, they should have taking more consideration than they did. the guy should have been asserted gradually over four days not in less than six hours

which meant because of it could accumulate and become more combustible. these things happened. there is no excuse they happened. we cannot read more into it then there was. host: jeff guinn author of "waco: david koresh, the branch davidians, and a legacy of rage" thank you for joining us today. guest: it has been interesting and a pleasure. host: if you miss any of this program it will re-air today on c-span american history tv at 5:30 p.m. eastern and you can check out all of c-span's american history tv programming on our website at c-span.org. also jeff guinn will be on book tv in depth next weekend live sunday, march 5 at noon eastern time on the c-span two. that is it today for "washington

journal". thank you for everybody that wise. we will see you again tomorrow morning. 7:00 a.m. eastern. have a great saturday. ♪