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television providers, giving you a front-row seat to democracy. io institute at wilson center in washington, d.c. on the kidnapping and killing of americans who crossed into mexico from brownsville, texas last week. what is your understanding of what happened, what we know at this point? guest: good morning. thanks for the invitation. i think it is obviously tragic, what we understand is four or five people from the carolinas drove to brownsville and crossed out of matamoros for one of them to have a medical procedure. our understanding is there was perhaps confusion between rival cartels, that this was a wrong place, wrong time and the u.s. and mexican authorities collaborated quickly to rescue

the two hostages. unfortunately, not before the other two had been killed. i think it shows the u.s. and mexico can, when they cooperate, can act quickly to bring people to justice. they were arrested. one person in mexico, apparently a person who was guarding them. now, they are looking for others. this is presumably not just a one person operation. host: tell our viewers about this part of mexico and cartels operating on the border. guest: this part of mexico is one of the most dangerous. the state department ranks it as level four, which is do not go. the state department provides travel advisories and mexico is a large country, like ours, so they do travel advisories on a state-by-state basis, or even more discreetly than just a state. tamaulipas is one of those

states recommended americans not travel to. it has notoriously been a dangerous state. it has per capita the highest number of disappearances and all of mexico. it is about a little over 18,000 out of 3.5 million. it is not a safe place. host: the state department recognizes not traveling to this part of mexico. you can drive across the border and do that anyway. guest: right. the state department can make recommendations, but cannot prohibit you from going to mexico. if people want to go, they can. it is important to keep in mind there are over one million border crossings everyday between the united states and mexico. while this is tragic, it is one really tragic event in maybe 900,000 not tragic events. it is important we not take it out of -- nobody can go to mexico under any circumstance, because that is not the case. host: one of the headlines from

today's paper is the front page from washington times, senators want military in my saccone citing the killing of americans, legislation would declare war on cartels. it is senator lindsey graham who is sponsoring this legislation. there is the headline from the washington times, this was lindsey graham yesterday. [video clip] >> i do not know if it is a lack of will on behalf of the mexican government to bring these cartels to bay, or lack of capability. either way, it is the same result for the united states. chaos, heartache, terrorism, murder. it needs to come to an end and we are going to do two things today. we are going to introduce legislation in the coming days and trying to make it bipartisan. to designate these groups, foreign terrorist organizations under u.s. law to open up more capability to go after them and their conspirators all over the world. secondly, we are going to

introduce an authorization to use military force for the united states military can go in and destroy these labs and networks. once designated an fto terrorist organization, the second step will be engaging in is giving the mill -- the military to go after these organizations, wherever they exist. not to invade mexico, not to shoot mexican airplanes down, but to destroy drug labs that are poisoning americans. it is time to get serious and use the tools in the toolbox. not just in the prosecution lane, not just in the law enforcement lane, but in the military lane, as well. hopefully, this will change behavior of the mexican government. nothing would please me more than have a meaningful partnership to take these drug cartels down and stop killing americans. if mexico will not cooperate, we are going to have to do what is in our national cured interest. host: carolina republican

lindsey graham on capitol hill yesterday. the idea of the u.s. military going into mexico to destroy these labs. is there a precedent for that in the past? guest: i do not know -- certainly, the last time u.s. troops went into mexico was over 100 years ago in the mexican-american war. i know that is not what senator graham is suggesting. i think security experts will suggest that the military is probably not the best tool to address drug trafficking. certainly, you could use the military to blow up a drug lab. as long as there is demand for the product. as we have seen, cartels are involved in what they traffic and how they traffic it. we need to be more nuanced. it is possible that the designation might open up more opportunities. i am not certain.

if it does, i think that would make sense. host: you are talking about the designation of the foreign terrorist organization? how do we designate cartels right now in mexico? guest: there are certainly -- they are certainly designated as criminal groups. i am not an expert in what the nuances are between if you name a terrorist organization, they are now referred to as transnational organizations. one of the points senator graham made is important is -- all of the world. it is important to remember. this, like many challenges the u.s. and mexico face, our bilateral, but global at the same time. we need to cooperate, including cooperation between china, mexico and the united states to stop the movement of precursor chemical, as well as pursuing the finances of the cartels. it is more then just using the military to go after particular

mexicans or others operating in mexico. host: let me give the phone numbers for viewers to join in the conversation. andrew rudman is our guest from the -- the director of the mexico institute wilson center. if you want to join the conversation, republicans it is (202) 748-8001. democrats, it is (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. a special line for border state segments, we want to hear from you. (202) 748-8003. john from roz well, you are up with andrew rudman. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. there is one thing most of those people here in border states, whenever we travel to mexico, you leave your car on this side of the united states. you walk over the border.

if you need to go further into mexico, you rent a car. you do not take a car with american tags into mexico. you stop and talk to the border patrol. they will tell you which regions of mexico to avoid. these are basic things. we have traveled to mexico many times, had great times. never had a bad time. host: john, do you mostly travel for vacation to mexico? what do you travel therefore? caller: many reasons. the health care system in the united states, you can go to mexico and get something done for a third of the price. that is why those people from south carolina were going. they have better health care, we wouldn't have to go to other countries to get the same health care for less price.

and, the exact same quality. host: let me focus on that with andrew rudman, another headline from today's paper. usa's front page, many in the usc mexico as an oasis for health care, medical tourism south of the border arrives for easy access and low cost. guest: that is true. the caller made an important point, people travel regularly to mexico for cosmetic surgery, sometimes experiment treatments, to purchase drugs at lower costs. they are generally the same drugs produced by the same companies. there is movement. there are also, at times, -- what we are talking now, individuals, any of us including the caller driving across the border, walking across the border as he suggests himself. there have been efforts to have more organized medical tourism for that reason, because the costs are lower. you can often find doctors in

mexico trained in the united states who have exactly the same knowledge and skill. host: is this something the mexican government is encouraging? have these procedures here? are there tax incentives, are they investing in medical facility south of the border to encourage americans to spend their health care dollars here? guest: in the past administrations and mexico, there was a more active effort to remote medical tourism. i have not seen as much of that under this government. people on the mexican side of the border do promote it. if you cross the border, you immediately sign for dental care and -- and popular reason to go to mexico, dental insurance is expensive and not always as generous. dental care -- you hear people say, i needed a cavity fille d. it was a third of the price. it does happen, it is more on a local level then a national

effort. host: what should viewers know about andre men well lopez and his views on the united states, border crossings from the united states into mexico? guest: that is a broad question. lopez recognizes the importance of the u.s.-mexico relationship, understands both from an economic standpoint as well as a cultural and historic standpoint. 40 million americans trace their roots back to mexico. long-standing folks from the border, long-standing relationships. i think he understands that. he has implemented lower tax regime in the northern part of mexico and the border area to try to promote the commerce between the united states and mexico. host: john in jupiter, florida.

independent. good morning, you are on with andrew rudman. caller: i have a simple solution for this nonsense. execute the drug pushers in the u.s. kill them, instead of letting the people die. you would do a better job by preventing the jobs -- the drugs coming in. execute the drug pushers like they do in other countries that do not have drug problems. it is so simple. guest: andrew rudman on how we deal with drug dealers in this country. guest: i think john makes an important point, sometimes, we talk about the drug trade as if the drugs come through the border, are brought by mexican cartel to the border. we forget about, how does drugs get from matamoros, wherever they cross, how do they get to washington, oklahoma, any other state. i think whether we should

execute them, that is a legal question or a legislative question. you raise an important point, which is to remember the -- there is trafficking in this country, as well. it is not entirely a problem in mexico. host: on how mexico treats its drug dealers. as the mexican government outdone by the cartels? guest: the mexican government is indeed outgunned by the cartels. there have been stories, you can find them on the internet of some of the cartels showing off their weaponry. there was a fairly infamous case where the mexican government attempted to arrest a senior drug cartel leader, the son of guzman, the cartels mass or says and eventually surrounded the military, forcing the military to withdraw. no doubt a serious challenge for scope. host: how many cartels are there in mexico? guest: i am not sure who knows exactly how many there are.

there are two or three primary cartels. the gulf cartel operates in brownsville, matamoros. again, the challenge is the cartel -- it is not quite the same as a corporation in the united states. there is a lot of infighting and splintering. often when a kingpin is eliminated, what happens is, there is fight for control of the cartel so you see an increase in violence. host: which one of the three was el chapo's cartel? guest: you got me. i think it was helly scope. host: the line for democrat, good morning. caller: there seems to be a big demand, so to decrease the demand for drugs in united states, perhaps we should use money for drug addiction by

putting up billboards all over the interstates. that, use of drugs finances terrorist organizations. perhaps it will weigh on the conscience of the american public that demands these drugs. guest: again, that is an interesting idea. i think the connection you are making is an important one. these organizations that sell drugs also are engaged in other illicit activity, whether smuggling of people, cigarettes -- we had a program at the wilson center several months ago about the illicit movement -- the movement of illicit cigarettes from the u.s.-canadian border through latin america. it is the same groups. you are right, the drug traffickers are involved in a lot of other activities that we would prefer to see eliminated. host: the power of the internet at my finger tips.

el chapo is in the -- cartel. this is a shade in michigan, independent. good morning. caller: good morning, mr. rudman. i have a question, hypothetically speaking. i assume you can hear me. hypothetically speaking, because i do not want to be misconstrued. some of my friends in washington county have a little debate, you could say. the question we have been debating is, would it be constitutionally legal for u.s. citizens to go stand or large number of u.s. citizens to stand in the middle of the rio grande and prevent these nice people who are good, hard-working immigrants who, sadly, to prevent them to cross the border by physically -- like, pushing or blocking, these potential,

nice immigrants from coming into the united states because -- could american citizens constitutionally, legally do that, sir? host: a citizens arrest, a citizens border stop? guest: i am not a lawyer. an email is reluctant to try and play one -- i am always reluctant to try and play one on tv. i think the border patrol might be concerned about that, only because it might impede their ability to enforce u.s. law. i do not know whether constitutionally one could make an argument that you could not be stopped from doing it. host: spokane, washington. laura, republican. good morning. caller: good morning. my question is this. according to our constitution, the president does not have the authority to write eos or policies that violate congressional law. that is exactly what he is doing regarding our border. to close that border won't stop

a lot of sex trafficking trafficking, human organ harvesting and a lot of american lives would be saved from the fentanyl. it is not america's fault we have these people that want to come over here and use these poor immigrants as slaves and children and here, we have a president that is being allowed to violate our congressional laws. we have a very good immigration laws, ok? with a stupid piece of paper. he does not have that authority. host: human trafficking on the border. guest: human trafficking is a huge concern. it is the same groups that are trafficking drugs, that are trafficking people. there are people who live in conditions in their countries such that they decide the rational thing to do is to sell all their worldly possessions and often walk hundreds of thousands of miles to get to the united states for a bet