host: good morning and welcome to washington journal. in about a month, it will be time to pay taxes in the united states and people are already turning the spotlight toward the irs and u.s. tax system.

president biden says the wealthiest people and corporations in the united states should pay more in taxes, but republicans say his budget is dead on arrival, including taxes. without a breakthrough, the system seems fated to stay the same. our question for you, is the system fair? is the federal tax system fair? should people pay more or less? should corporations pay more or less? we want to know, we are opening up special lines. we will ask you to call in by income. if you make less than $50,000 a year, your number is (202) 748-8000. if you make between $50,000 and $140,000 a year, your number is (202) 748-8001. if you make more than hundred

$40,000 -- $140,000 a year, your number is (202) 748-8002. a special line for business owners, we want to know what business owners think about the tax system. your number is (202) 748-8003. keep in mind, you can always text us at (202) 748-8003 and we are always reading on social media, facebook at facebook.com/cspan, on twitter @cspanwj and you can follow us on instagram @cspanwj. once again, our topic this morning is the u.s. tax system. do you think the tax system, as it is set up right now, is fair? should people be paying more or less? what about corporations and businesses? all of this is on the table for our discussion this morning.

before we get into that, president joe biden announced his fiscal year 2024 budget in philadelphia on thursday. a big part of the budget is raising taxes on wealthy americans and corporations. here is what he had to say in philadelphia about the tax plan. [video clip] >> maga republicans refused to raise a single penny in new taxes on the wealthiest people. let me ask. you do not have to if you feel self-conscious, but raise your hand, anybody who thinks our present federal tax system is fair, raise your hand. i am not joking. people making $400,000 a year do not think it is fair. we found in 2020, when i got elected, 55 major corporations of the fortune 500 companies

paid to zero in federal income tax on $40 billion in profit. i insisted on a horrible thing to burden on them. i introduced legislation making sure they had to pay a minimum 15%. just 15%, that is less than any of you pay. guess what? we did those things to grow the economy, create jobs. that paid for everything, allowed me to reduce the deficit. pay your fair share. that is why i am fighting for another proposal. when i got elected, there were roughly -- i do not know the exact number, it varies. around 650 billionaires in america, now it is over 1000. you know the average federal tax they pay? 3%.

three, 3%. no billionaire should be paying a lower tax than somebody working as a schoolteacher or firefighter or any of you in this room. my plan is to make sure corporations pay their fair share. it used to be 35%, we cut it down to 21%. i think we should be paying 28%. we should be paying more than 21%. under my plan -- i made this commitment when i ran, i have not broken it yet and i never will. no one making less than $400,000 will see a penny and federal taxes go up, not a single penny. host: before we start the conversation, let us get a little background on who exactly pays taxes in the united states. there is a story in cnbc.com

today that talks about who pays federal income tax. i will read a couple of paragraphs. more than 72 million american households will pay no federal income taxes this year, marking a large decline from last year, according to the new analysis. an estimated 72.5 million households or 40% of total households will pay no federal income taxes for tax year 2022, according to the analysis from the tax policy center. this marks a substantial decline from the 59.3% who paid no federal income taxes in 2020 and the 56% in 2021. both years were dominated by covid related shutdowns and restrictions. the number of americans who pay no federal income taxes remains a hot political issues, with many republicans arguing more americans should pay federal income taxes and democrats arguing many of the rich do not pay taxes.

the real drivers of so-called non-payers are those who owe no federal income tax or tax credits and employment. during the pandemic, the number of nonpayers surged as unemployment rose, along with tax credits and government payments. that is coming from cnbc's study thatore than 40% of u.s. households will owe no federal income tax. what exactly is president joe biden proposing in his 2024 budget when it comes to tax increases? here is a breakdown of what is in that budget. the budget has more than $4.5 trillion in tax increases, it levies a 25% tax on americans whose wealth exceeds $100 million. it hikes the corporate tax rate

to 28%, up from 21%, expands medicare taxes on top earners and has higher taxes on u.s. companies foreign income. this is what is in president biden's fiscal year 2024 budget that is going to congress. so, what are republicans saying about the tax proposals and president biden's budget? how's freedom caucus member chip roy spoke about what republicans think about the biden budget, proposed taxes and priorities on friday. here is what he had to say. [video clip] >>'s budget proposes a $3 trillion tax hike, we think we should do the opposite. we think we should be pulling the government back, getting out of the way of the american

people, letting them create growth and opportunity. if you create growth, you grow out of the debt we face. it is the only way to save this country and advance america, stop spending money we do not have for the team any the american people sent us here to stop. we believe we can do that, scott outlined it. understand, we can save over $3 trillion over the next decade by putting that spending for federal bureaucracy back to pre-covid levels. i ask you, who among us think the size of government in 2019 was small and efficient and effective? anybody? anybody want to say that government was nailing it? they were efficient and effective. is it better bloated with all of the covid spending? we are asking to take that bureaucracy down the street, returned to pre-covid levels and have simple growth over the next 10 years in be able to sustain

our government at the level it should be and save $3 trillion. president biden wants to taxes and regulate us into oblivion. we are standing against that. host: let us go to the phone lines, let us start by talking to greg from north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. our tax system is all messed up. we really need a flat tax, i would say, across-the-board. everybody wants to be paying taxes, this does not make any sense at all. this is what they get wrong every time. when you raise taxes on corporations, what do you think is going to happen? they are a business, they are going to pass the cost down to the consumer, it is going to raise the cost of goods and services. we are still taxing, all these

corporations and businesses will pass the cost along. everyone needs to have buy into the system. does it make sense that 40% of americans are not paying any income tax? a flat tax would correct that and actually probably increase the revenue the government gets, thank you. host: before you drop off, how do you get congress to agree to a flat tax? how do we get congress to agree to change the tax system? the system we have has been there for a while, though it has been modified and changed. going to the flat tax would be starting the system again from zero. how do you get a divided congress to do this, or is this just a hope and a wish? caller: you have to vote those people into office.

it comes down to the american people voting for candidates that are in favor of a flat tax. that is going to take some time and it comes down to one man, one vote, who you are voting into office in those positions. host: why do you think a flat tax would be better than the current system? caller: it is the fairest way to go, everyone pays, everyone has buy in. the big corporations, if you give them a flat tax, take out the loopholes, make sure they do not have any backdoors. they pay a flat fee, everyone pays a flat fee. it is the fairest way to go. everyone has buy in. to me, you take out the loopholes, you're going to see the income for the government is going to increase. you've got to make sure you

allow no one to defraud the system and take out the loopholes. that would be the fairest way to go. host: would you consider it fair if they took loopholes out of the current system? caller: yes, i think it would be fair if they took loopholes out of the current system. do not allow them to hire tax lawyers to get away with whatever they are getting away with. make sure everyone pays the same percentage. host: let us go to james from michigan, good morning. caller: good morning. i think billionaires need to be paying a whole lot more. i started collecting a pension last year, i am a truck driver, i am still working. i make less than 100,000, i paid

14,000 in taxes. that does not seem fair, either. you start getting ahead a little bit, they hit you really hard, the little guy. billionaires, they do not pay nothing hardly and they need to be paying a lot more. that is all i've got. host: the previous caller suggested a flat tax, where everyone pays the same percentage, regardless of how much money you make. would you consider that a better system than the one we have now? caller: no, i would not consider that at all. people that are retired, a lot of them are really struggling. people that are barely making it on $10,000 or $50,000 should not have to pay nothing, they are living in poverty. host: so you would agree with president biden, those who are the wealthiest should pay more

taxes than those in the middle class and those who are -- to make the least amount of money in america, correct? caller: yes. i agree with that statement. i think we need a war on greed, there is way too much greed. that is the biggest problem in this country, greed at the top. host: let us go to josephine, calling from new jersey. good morning. caller: good morning. this is a question that always lingers, should those at the top really pay? of course. if you are a christian and you say you are pro-life, they should be paying something. it is common sense. to always point the gun at those who do not have it and say they are the guilty ones because they need it, where is your christianity?

it makes no sense at all. did i make good money two years ago? internal revenue is doing tax returns from two years ago. in 21, i paid $80,000 and did i complain? no. i live in a state that is number two in education, not like florida with number 36. we did not have as many million people die with covid, like in florida, 80,000 people died of covid. you pay for what you get. if you think you're going to get it for nothing, it does not work that way. should billionaires pay more? absolutely, come on. thank you. host: the argument is, if you raise taxes on corporations, if you raise taxes on billionaires who run the corporations, they will just pass the increases on

to those who do not have as much money in higher prices. that means people who do not have as much money will pay more for the goods and services they need. do you agree with that argument? caller: absolutely not. that is a canard. i will give you an example. many years back, cereal went up tremendously. the mothers said, we cannot afford it. guess what? they stopped buying it. guess what happened to the corporations? they are not buying it, they dropped the price. they will use any excuse. if you do not understand that corporations are self-centered, you have not gotten it. they will use any reason, it is just an excuse. republicans always use that as an excuse.

anytime we get a recession, it is always under a republican. they know how to bar and spend, but they do not know how to tax and spend. and q. -- thank you. host: earlier, a ready story that talked about 40% of u.s. households will not pay federal income tax this year. that includes some of the richest people in the united states. there is a story that talks about some of the richest people in the united states, who do not pay federal income taxes. i will read a couple of paragraphs of that story to you. in 2007, jeff bezos, multibillionaire and now the world's richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income taxes. he achieved the feat again in 2011. in 2018, elon musk, the second

richest person in the world, paid no federal income taxes. michael bloomberg managed to do the same in recent years. another billionaire investor did it twice. george soros paid no federal income taxes three years in a row. propublica has it a vast probe -- trove of irs data on the nation's wealthiest people, covering more than 15 years. it provides an unprecedented look inside the financial lives of american titans including warren buffett, bill gates and mark zuckerberg. it shows not just income and taxes, but investment, stock, trades and the result of audits. taken together, it demolishes the cornerstone myth of the american tax system, that everyone pays their fair share and the richest americans pay the most. irs records show the wealthiest

can perfectly legally pay income taxes that are only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of millions, if not billions, thr fortunes grow each year. that comes from propublica, it revealed how the wealthiest avoid income tax. do you think the income tax system is fair? should the wealthiest pay more? should the poorest pay less? where should the middle-class for? we want to hear from you, call in. let us go to stephen from los angeles, california. good morning. caller: hello, thanks for taking my call. i think the tax system is totally not fair. i think churches -- they always give opinions, should pay taxes. all the churches, not just one. all of them, including scientology.

one of the biggest tax cheats around, $750, which has been well-documented, is trump. that was a couple years ago. cher, the singer, said i am fine with paying more, i have a lot. i do not mind paying more. some of the rich do not mind paying more taxes. i think nobody under 25,000 dollars a year should pay taxes, because they are in poverty. absolutely, absolutely corporations should be paying the most, they have a ton of money, why not pay it? at least biden is trying. eventually, they should be paying 35% what i am paying. it is only fair, they are a corporation. that is my opinion. thank you so much.

host: speaking of president biden, when he discussed his fiscal year 2020 four budget in philadelphia, he talked about how the new tax increases he proposed will eventually lead to deficit reduction. but some gop lawmakers who want to overhaul the system, their plan seems to be voters are mostly against it. here is a story, i will bring a couple paragraphs to you to talk about with the gop plans to do with taxes. the story goes like this. as house republicans reinvigorate calls to pass the fair tax act, a proposal that would completely reimagine the u.s. tax system and dissolve internal revenue service, a new survey finds voters are likely skeptical of the gop plan to implement tax reforms. the latest iteration of the bill

, by buddy carter, would abolish all income payroll and capital gain taxes and replace the federal government's revenue stream with a national sales tax on services and new goods. it would eliminate the irs and the need for taxpayers to file annual tax returns. there is little advertised for a national sale taxed -- sales tax of carter's plan. a slim majority, 51% including 56% of democrats and 47% of republicans oppose the elimination of federal income, medicare and social security taxes in exchange for a federal sales tax on goods and services that taxpayers buy. that is talking about a gop plan to overhaul the tax system. let us go back to the phone lines and talk to brian from

florida. good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: can you hear me? host: we can, go ahead. caller: i make $33,000 a year, i barely get anything back. but i think people should pay a lot more in taxes if they make a lot more money, that is for sure. i mean, the republican plan is kind of crazy. they keep wanting to lower taxes, i do not know how we are going to get out of the debt we are in in this country. we have a governor in florida then seems to be on a tour making a lot more money than he should be. that is about all i've got. i think the wealthy should pay a lot more in taxes, period. host: let us go to norman from

florida, good morning. caller: good morning. i'm 75. i'm in the $42,000 range. i do not see anything changing to raise taxes if the government does not stop spending the race. i don't know how many times in my lifetime they have raised taxes. they can tax the rich, tax the poor, tax is all, which they do. but until somebody ask responsible and spends the tax money the way it should be spent , not the way they want to spend

, i could spend myself right out of everything if i wanted to. it is ridiculous. it is just common sense. that is it for me. host: what do you think the government should cut back on or not be spending tax dollars on that they are spending tax dollars on now? caller: look at all of the illegals we have. we spend over 150 billion a year for the illegals. look at all of the money going to ukraine. i understand it is a good purpose. i understand that. but america always seems to get

the big bills. we pay the big bills. for every country. other countries help a little here, little there. but no, it is america. we, the taxpayers, always get the big bills. it is just ridiculous. host: once again, we want to know from you if you think our federal tax system is fair. do you think people should be paying more? do you think corporations should be paying more? should businesses pay less? we are going to open up the lines under income. if you make less than $50,000 a year, your line is (202) 748-8000. if you make between $50,000 and $140,000 a year, your line is (202) 748-8001.

if you make over 140,000 dollars a year, we want to hear from you at (202) 748-8002. business owners, everyone saying businesses, corporations should pay more in taxes, what do business owners think? we have a special line, which is (202) 748-8003. when president biden announced his 2024 budget in philadelphia, he talked about how tax increases on the wealthiest incorporations will lead to deficit reduction. here is what he had to say on thursday. [video clip] >> my budget will give the working people a fighting chance, create good paying jobs. we can pay for the jobs by reducing the deficit. two ways, cutting 160 billion dollars in medicare expenses. we also have to ask the

wealthiest and biggest corporations to begin to pay their fair share. cutting subsidies for special interest. by the way, and my first two years in office, these first two years, i brought down the deficit a record 1.7 trillion dollars, more than any president has in american history. while doing all the rest of this stuff. in the budget i am introducing today, it will reduce the deficit by nearly 3 billion -- $3 trillion over 10 years. host: let us see what social media followers are saying about the federal tax system and whether they think the federal tax system is fair or not. here a tweet that says seriously , the tax code has been unfair for 50 years and everybody who pays taxes or gets away without paying any at all know it. a facebook post says, has anyone

read the biden budget? it is only 180 two pages. if you think the tax increase is only for the $400,000 and above, you are sadly mistaken. here is another post from facebook that says, of course not. the tax system was designed so the government can pick winners and losers in the business world. a tweet says no, the tax system is not fair. neither is moving the clocks ahead. one last post from facebook says no, the wealthy and corporations are not paying their fair share. the middle classes taxed at absorbent rates compared to the wealthiest in the country. why is all income not taxed at the same rate as other income, all income based on chance, but that which the wealthy participate at a higher rate

with rules that do not allow for the less wealthy investors to tax a much lower rate. it is offered to the wealthy, but not other taxpayers. there are ridiculous numbers virus reductions in place to favor the wealthy, but no comparable benefit is offered to the average taxpayer. what do you think about the federal tax system, do you think it is fair? we want to hear from you. let us talk to bob calling from north carolina, good morning. caller: good morning, how are you? host: i am great, go ahead. caller: as far as the tax system being fair, it is certainly not as fair as it could be. i am not too crazy about the gop plan, changing the sales tax,

change everything to a sales tax. the main reason for that is, what you are going to have for any type of services you will get, because you have people paying in cash, under the table, there will not be any record. from a record standpoint, there are a few things that could be done. this comment that came up about a flat tax. there's a lot of comments about the wealthy paying with they consider their fair share. one way around that is you put a flat tax income of 5% or 10% on everyone, and for luxury goods. if i want to go out and buy a ford escort or by a lamborghini, may the tax on my escort could be lower than with a lamborghini should be. going to have a tough time with the wealth tax. what i would really like to see is, about two years ago, remember when propublica

published a bunch of tax returns about wealthy individuals? it came out in may of 2021. it said elon musk paid 0.1% of his income on tax and jeff bezos paid 0.37% of his income on tax. what i'd really like to see on your show or c-span, somewhere, is a good discussion with some specifics of how the tax code could be changed such that -- with specifics, not a bunch of pie-in-the-sky stuff, to eliminate -- to make the wealthy are pay more income taxes. what would you think about that? i think -- host: i think that would be a great show sometime in the future, we should do that in april when everyone is paying

their taxes. the propublica article document recently said, in 2018, elon musk paid no income taxes at all in 2018. it does not seem to be something at is new, according to pro-public up. any of the richest people in america pay no income tax. they also can afford a horde of tax lawyers to look for deductions that the regular taxpayer cannot. caller: yeah. it is my understanding, some of the wealthy people get away with not paying taxes, they put up stock as collateral, then borrow against that and live against what they borrow, is that your understanding? host: i have to tell you, i have never once thought about doing stock buybacks. i am not in that salary range, i have no ada how wealthy people

avoid paying taxes. i have no idea on that. caller: i get a lot of my information from wall street journal, it is my understanding that is how they do it. they make a tax loophole, that is one way to get around it. everything is politicians, if you can give me more time, the article you had a little bit ago was biden saying reduce the deficit by $1.7 trillion. that is a bunch of baloney. the deficit went up each year he was in office. he did not reduce the deficit. his thinking is the government has a credit card, which we pay for. if he has a certain amount on that credit card, which has

historically gone into the deficit, if he has somehow put less into the deficit, then that is the savings of $1.7 trillion. if you have a $10,000 credit card, you've done that over five years, $2000 a year that you contributed to your credit card, instead of just increasing the amount you owe by $1000 and $2000, you certainly do not think you saved $1000. i wish the guy would quit lying to us about that. host: let us go to kenny calling from ohio, good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: i have a very targeted

tax that i think people should pay, i am going after professional sports. the owners, the teams and especially the players. i do not believe these people deserve millions and millions and millions of dollars while nurses, special ed teachers and nursing home workers and everybody else are getting paid thousands and thousands of dollars. i do not believe the sports people earn it or deserve it. host: you are now not talking about the tax system, you are talking about capitalism, about how much people get paid based on what people think their job is worth. caller: how much taxes are they paying on those millions and millions? even lebron james made millions

of dollars playing basketball, then was complaining about how black people were treated in america. no thank you, that is all i have to say. host: let us go to jim calling from oklahoma, good morning. caller: good morning, how are you? host: great, go ahead. caller: they always want to raise taxes. the only democratic president was john kennedy, he lowered taxes. i remember 2016, during the primary, i went to see ted cruz. have a flat tax. that is all you have to do, you know? host: if you eliminate the irs, who enforces the flat tax? caller: five cents on the

dollar. ted cruz said that, get rid of the irs. the senator in oklahoma is a democrat, but want a flat tax. some democrat conservatives want to do that. they are taking more money every day, everybody pays the same. if you start raising taxes on the corporate, it is like the other guy said. it will come down on consumers. host: let us talk to maria, calling from honolulu, hawaii. maria is a business owner. good morning. caller: hey. i am here. host: as a business owner, do you think the u.s. tax system is fair? caller: it is so unfair.

especially the small business owners like me. you know? i do everything in the office, it is hard to spend money to hire help because i have to pay for social security and whatever else is required. i can pay at least one employee. not employee -- on an hourly basis. i am doing the job of three people. with the onset of covid, they

lost jobs. something they did not care to apply for -- unless they give me permission to apply. i have to hire a lawyer to keep them on. the problem seems to be protecting only the renters, not the landlords. host: let us go to kurt from florida, good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? host: great, go ahead. caller: i will make this short and sweet.

one of the callers that called and talked about one of the big problems being greedy. you need to understand, we have a capitalist economy. it is greed that drives capitalism. without greed, capitalism fails. another caller said something about voting the right people into office. that is ridiculous. you cannot use the system to change the system, because the system will not allow you to do that. our tax system, like the government, no longer works. something needs to change, whether it is a flat tax or anything else. something needs to change. if we go on the way we are now, nothing gets solved. it gets worse. i agree that churches should pay taxes. it is ridiculous they do not. that is about all i've got to

say. host: before you go, i did not understand your last sentence. you think churches should pay taxes or should not pay taxes? caller: they should. host: got you, i wasn't clear. thank you. caller: thank you. host: let us go to pam from california, good morning. caller: good morning. i want to refer everyone to the interview that greta did, i think it was yesterday. she was interviewing stephen moore, who is in the trump administration. his figures for income tax where the top 1% of earners paid 42% of the income tax collected and said the top 10% of income

earners pay 70% of the income tax collected. also, you said 40% of households do not even file, do not pay any income tax. host: that is according to cnbc, yes. caller: according to a tax letter, of this people that do file, the bottom 50% of those who file income tax, the bottom paid less than 3% of what is collected. we have the top 10% of people that pay income tax are paying 70% of everything the irs collects. the bottom 50% of the taxpayer,

they are paying less than 3%. it is very, very progressive. the more you make, the more you pay, the less you make, the less you pay. when they say the top 1% or 10% is not paying their fair share, they are paying 70% of everything collected. the bottom half of the taxpayer, they are paying less than 3% of what is collected. i do not know what people mean when they say corporations are not paying enough, that people at the top should pay more. they are already paying 70% of everything collected, if they are in the top 10% of income earners in the united states. it is progressive, the bottom half is paying less than 3%. there is another 40% of income

earners that do not pay any income tax whatsoever. host: let me stick a couple of quick things in here. if you want to see what stephen moore, an economist, set on washington journal, you can go to c-span.org and go back and play what stephen moore, who is now working at the heritage foundation, said about the biden budget and potential tax increases. what would you say about the politico story that says people like jeff bezos and michael bloomberg and carl icahn and george soros and elon musk are not paying any federal taxes at all? you talk about the top 1% number but what about the 1% of that 1%, the older billionaires who are not paying any taxes? caller: they may be the richest people in the world, but they may not be earning any income for any particular tax, just

like when they showed trump taxes, some years he paid 34 million dollars, other years he did not pay anything. it is an income tax. you either do not have an income tax year or you buy municipal bonds or some other tax-sheltered to avoid paying income tax, you will not pay that year. but that does not mean you do not hire thousands of workers who you pay social security for, medicare for, workers comp, vacation, health insurance. if you are running a business, the lady that called in earlier before me who was running a business, she had to pay all these other taxes that are employee taxes. even if you are not paying income tax, -- they are giving

people a job and paying them a salary. the corporation, if they make a profit, they pay income tax on the profit, then they give it to their shareholders who also pay a capital gains or income tax on it. for the people on payroll, the people that file income tax separately from the corporation, they get that money from working for the corporation who is producing goods and services for everyone. host: let us go to michael from new jersey. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you today? host: fine, go ahead. caller: i am calling up, we are spending way too much money. that is why we've got to raise taxes. look at the ukraine war, we are

giving money to that, they are not going to win. where are we keeping that going in making the people suffer? they've got nice clean close on -- clothes on while people suffer. here it says 26 billion dollars to strengthen the border, what does that mean? why not just get honest and secure the border, because strength is immediate relation of words. i've got two words for you, made in. then it says america. that is get honest. i think he is pulling our leg to ruin the country, that is my opinion. he wants to destroy the country, it is all about change america. i do not believe in the cashless society they want to pull. i don't like that. they want to spy on everybody but themselves. so i appreciate none of this stuff. we need to stop the spending,

maybe we will get out of debt. our kids and grandkids ain't gonna get out of it and neither are we. we are all going to fall out of it when the whole country falls out. host: let us go to john calling from california, a business owner. good morning. caller: good morning. host: do you think the tax system is fair as a business owner? caller: i think the tax system works right now, and i want to remind everybody that, as a corporation, you pay 22%. if you make $100 profit, you pay $22. if you do not have deductions, if you cannot hire people or can't invest, take deductions off the 22% and come out with a lower, may be pay seven hundred $50 like donald trump, if you can spend that money in investments and employment and putting people to work, you can

reduce that 22% down to a lower number. imagine if i had a 22% tax and i paid it. but what i do to my prices when i go to sell my goods and services? i would raise my prices by 22%. in other words, tax deductions -- corporations pay their fair share. corporations are the most heavily taxed. 45%, going to take half of what you earned on capital gains. the taxes right now, under trump, if you make less than $15,000, you pay zero taxes. if you make $25,000, i think it is five or 10%, it is really low. the 40% they are talking about that do not pay taxes, it is legitimate. they do not pay.

but the top people pay 22%, but they have deductions. that might be 750 dollars, but they start with 42% of profits. if they did not have deductions, you would be paying higher prices, because they have to pay $22 on every hundred dollars to the government. it is impossible for businesses to do that. businesses take deductions and corporate tax down. the lady from california had it dead on. the middle-class pays for the taxes. the rich people have deductions that put the middle-class to work, the middle-class pays taxes. the poor do not pay. that is how it works. host: let us go to trina from lawrence, new york. good morning. caller: good morning, thank you

for sharing the republican tax plan this morning. as long as the math adds up, i think it sounds a great idea. 70 people have called in with the right information. the current system punishes working and middle-class, those just getting out of college with their big student debt. they do not have children yet. we all pay the high taxes for much of america. the poor, who i work with and give to personally out of my own paycheck in addition to paying taxes on my paycheck, they make -- i do not think a lot of people realize they not only do not pay taxes, but i've seen people come away with $11,000 in taxes at tax time. i do not think there income --their income should be my taxes from payroll, the income should be from their own jobs. i like the consumer idea. if everybody is paying on goods

and services, those who run the corporations are doing that their personal lives, office supplies. i just do not understand why people are ok with the irs at all. it does not make any sense why we have to do the tax filing business. i love the consumer idea that everybody pays on what they buy, so those who are wealthy can buy the sporting good event tickets and pay the taxes, because they have it. host: let me interrupt you real quick. i am no fan of the irs myself, but even with a national sales tax, without an irs, who forces people, the companies, to pay the sales tax to the government? caller: you would be paying sales tax when you buy something. host: who forces the company to give that money to the government in taxes without the irs? caller: wouldn't they be buying -- so they rent the office

space, they are buying something , they have to pay taxes that way. they are not paying the government directly. host: but who forces them to pay the taxes? doesn't the irs collect the taxes? without the irs, who collects the taxes from businesses? caller: that is a great question. i am not exactly sure it has got it all worked out. but i think the business of filing income taxes is ridiculous. it should be done directly. host: let us go to andre calling from michigan, good morning. caller: good morning. i guess i kind of take on a different note than some of the other folks that called in. i am not as knowledgeable. i will say i am in the class that makes over $140,000 a year. i feel pretty pinched a lot of the time because of the way the

tax system works out. no matter what, because i fall in the middle-class family, no matter what we do it feels like i take two steps forward and one step back. for me, personally. my taxes keep going up and up and up. i have to take care of my student loan debt i accrued when i was going to school. it feels like the tech system we have set up, like a lot of people have called in and said, the money that i earn i do not end up getting to keep a lot of the time. everything i get, i have to pay to someone else. it does get frustrating from time to time. i try to remind myself i am blessed to have food, clothing and shelter. i know it sounds like this because i make -- i am not trying to sound like i am complaining, i assure you.

but when you have student loan debt and student loans take away almost half your net income because you have to pay them off, it makes things harder. i had to get a second job just so i could afford a house. at some point i'll be able to get it paid off, i know. but like when they put the hold on paying back student loans, i am sure i stimulated the economy by all the purchases i made. now reality is coming back. i've got to go back to paying the money, pinching pennies like i always have. that is fine with me. at the end of the day, it feels like the middle-class family gets more than i would prefer. host: let us go to diane from new jersey, good morning. caller: good morning. i have -- let us say it was 2018

or 2019 when trump aide 750 dollars in federal taxes. i paid $1040 that year. my income was $76,000, i live in new jersey, i pay high property taxes. over $10,000 a year. i have a little two-family house , i look at this and say, how can i pay that much and he only paid this little? he is supposed to have all these millions and all these property -- properties he owns in golf courses. i only made $76,000 that year. i am blown away. when the republicans go after the irs, we have to do something with it, i retired three years ago.

i had to wait 14 months for my refund, because my income did not drop down because i retired. here, i am paying. finally i said i finally get something back. i had to wait and wait, i called over 1000 times over a year period, never got anybody at the irs. something has to be done with the irs. host: let us talk to courtney calling from new york city, good morning. caller: i have seen it from both angles, i have my own business until covid, then they retrained in lucrative sales, i'm making about $95,000 a year. i was all excited because i thought this year might be getting return. i paid over 28,000 dollars between new york city, new york state and federal. they are saying i am getting $752 back, that is ridiculous.

between my health care in taxes, almost half my salary goes back to the man. i feel like i am only working for health care and to pay taxes. host: we would like to thank all of our callers who called in for the first segment. next, michael o'hanlon is here to discuss the key worldwide threats from china to russia that are facing the united states. later, dr. william schaffner at rentable university -- vanderbilt university will be here to discuss lessons learned from the response to covid-19 and what comes next as we hit the third anniversary of the pandemic. stick with us, be right back. ♪ >> c-span has unfiltered

coverage of the response from the invasion of ukraine. we also have international perspectives from the united nations and statements from foreign leaders, all on the c-span networks. c-span now, the free mobile app, and a rebbe -- a web resource page where you can follow. go to c-span.org/ukraine. >> listening to programs on c-span through c-span radio just got easier. listen to "washington journal daily at 7:00 a.m. eastern, important congressional hearings and other events throughout the day. listen to c-span anytime on your

smart speaker. c-span, powered by cable. >> c-span out as a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what is happening in washington, live and on-demand. keep up with events with hearings, white house events and more from the world of politics all at your fingertips. stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and scheduling for c-span television and radio and podcasts. the stand now, your front row seat to washington, anytime, anywhere. >> there are a lot of places to get political information, but only at c-span do you get it

straight from the source. no matter where you are from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word, if it happens here or here or here or anywhere that matters , america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are joined by michael o'hanlon you discuss keep worldwide threats against the united states. good morning. guest: good morning. host: the house and senate have recently had hearings on worldwide threats during what was the purpose? guest: they happen every year. this is hearing season where they talk about the budget and the intelligence community reports.

it is an annual ritual and usually a decent document to read. these tend to be 30 to 40 pages and a quick survey of the world and gives you a sense of the priorities. host: where does the intelligence community have its greatest vigilance right now? what are the greatest threats? guest: and is really with the national security and defense strategy prioritize and the intelligence community as well. the balloon fiasco did not help or change anything in that regard. i think we only slightly over dramatize the china threat. if you are going to start with highlight reel, that is where you would put your countries.

and terrorism will always be a concern. we go beyond traditional threats to climate and pandemic related matters as well. host: back and talk about the four countries, china, russia, north korea, iran. you briefly mentioned the balloon fiasco. what is the other greatest threat our country faces from china according to the intelligence community? guest: the china threat is comprehensive which makes it number one. china is the country that has the greatest capacity to challenge us across the board, 1.4 billion people. they have problems with their demographics, a is a lot of people to produce gdp. they have advanced research and development and are ahead of us in some areas of technology.

the number one security issue is taiwan. the island of 23 million. they have every intention of bringing them back into the fold one way or another. most chinese leaders say they want to do it on their watch and xi jinping is no exception. there is concern that they will try to do this in the 20 20's. the chinese are smart enough that taking taiwan militarily would be a huge role of the dice with the distinct us ability of bringing us in which would be world war iii. i don't think china would do that but there is the concern that with precision weapons that could threaten taiwan in a lot of ways and threaten u.s. in the next few years. host: let's talk about russia. russia-ukraine war has been going on or a year.

what makes russia a threat to the united states, other than what they are doing in ukraine? guest: i think it will probably push two years before we are done. it is now only 13 months. they first grabbe crimead after the olympics in 2014 and have the separatist rebellion in the eastern part of ukraine since that same year in the eastern region. i think the russians will probably keep pushing this year and the ukrainians are trying to get more weaponry from us for counterintelligence. rush holt 17% of ukraine and the russians -- russia holds 17% of ukraine and the russians are going and declaring annexation

for provinces in the east and south plus crimea. if you add it up it is 22% and the russians want to take more and the ukrainians went to liberate the entire 17%. i don't think either country has realistic military aspirations. as americans supporting ukrainians, we will help them get ready for a big counteroffensive this spring and they will slug it out all summer and then see where things stand if negotiations remain possible. i think the two-year prediction could be correct and i don't see this war ending anytime soon. host: for viewers saying to themselves, how is this a security issue for the united states, it seems a ukrainian issue and what does it have to do with us? guest: vladimir putin said he

wants to reconstitute a lot of the old russian empire and extends into nato territories, especially in the baltic states and in some other regions and potentially into finland. you could say we brought this problem upon ourselves by expanding nato eastward but we were trying to help sovereign, democratic countries going a security alliance that they wanted to join and i don't see why russia gets a veto over that. your point rings true that it is not a direct threat to the united states but if ukraine and russian food markets are upset, if energy markets are messed up, we all take higher prices at the pump and if putin wins the worst and feels emboldened to push westward, nato could be indicated so it is an indirect threat but it is potent and scary. we are supplying a lot of

weaponry and russia might decide to attack nato areas directly. i think that escalation wrist has been handled well but to gets frustrated, he may up the ante -- i think that escalation has been handled well but if putin gets frustrated he may up the ante. host: republicans call in at (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000, independents you can call (202) 748-8002. you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. and we are always reading on social media on -- social media.

we haven't heard a lot about north korea recently. what is keeping them in the threats? guest: that country has 60 to 70 nuclear weapons and it is the scariest country in terms of an outright cure dictatorship in regard to a nuclear state. they haven't gradually growing the arsenal and testing. other country has tested nuclear weapons except north korea and have tested long-range missiles that are of a range believed that could hit the u.s. that demonstrated that ability to send a nuclear warhead to north america, but they have missile range that could reach north america and they have warheads that have exploded and

you put that together could be a serious threat. and we are also aligned with south korea and north korea claims south korea should be under their rule. so 30,000 u.s. troops and americans living in south korea and working there and then japan not far away. you put that together and it is a witches brew of extremism, nuclear threats, missile threats , and the so-called demilitarized zone in korea. host: iran, what is the threat you would be concerned about with iran? guest: they are still stoking terrorism in the region, especially where they have the variant of islam that they share with a number of iraqis lebanese, syrians and other parts of the broader middle east

and they want to support them against the sunni dominated governance and they are still very poor terms with israel or they have five or six key enemies in the broader region and willing to use covert military action and terrorism against those five or six countries. plus they are going closer to a nuclear weapon and nobody has the right formula for how to stop that. we talk about who has the better strategy but none of us have a very good strategy and iran tiptoes towards heaven enriched uranium to use a bomb. you combine that with the extremist agenda, that has kept both parties worry for decades. host: the director of intelligence in china testified about potential threats from the

leadership. we will show a portion of what she said and i want you to react to it. here is the director in front of the senate. [video clip] >> he has surrounded himself with like-minded loyalists and china youths -- china's highest decision-making body, they work together and will press taiwan on unification and undercut u.s. influence and drive wedges between washington and its allies and partners and put in norms that favor the chinese authoritarianism. long-standing distrust of u.s. goals and the believe that the unit --nited states and the speech was the most direct criticism we have seen to date and probably reflects growing

pessimism in beijing about china's relationship with the united states as well as worries about the trajectory of china's domestic economic development and indigenous technology innovation, challenges he now blames on the united states. he also wants to message regional actors that the u.s. bears the responsibility for any increase in tensions. host: what do you think about what she said? guest: it is concerning, but i also detect two great powers in very proud and competitive, but i don't hear her saying china wants to start a war but i think we have to listen to nuance in the china threat assessment because there is too much rush on both sides of the aisle to say this is our next adversary, heaven for bid this become our next adversary in military terms. we have to be ready just in case so china doesn't think it is an

easy way to walk into taiwan, so to speak, but we should not convince ourselves this is the country looking for a fight. china hasn't fought a war 1979. there economic system they would be loath to turned completely upside down and i think we can figure out a way not to fight china and we better because they have nuclear weapons and are expanding their arsenal and these are the most powerful countries on earth and if we fight each other there is no telling where it ends. host: knew we know how much china spends on its military and how it compares to what the united states spends? guest: we are spending 858 billion dollars and china is officially spending somewhere in the range of the low $200 billion equivalent, but when you adjust for things that aren't in the budget and the different nature of their economy it may be more in the $3 billion range,

but less than half of ours and maybe closer to one third of ours, but the chinese can focus military modernization on taiwan and the east and south china sea, or we have global responsibilities. luckily, we have allies and they don't. we have a lot of strengths and we shouldn't convince ourselves that time is on their side and sometimes they think time is on their side and against us. i think that would be an incorrect assessment. if you want to look for allies, japan, south korea, australia and nato on your side, you are looking good. you combine the military budget and that with our allies, we are above. host: lets let viewers take part in the conversation. we will start with russ calling from oakville, west virginia on the republican line. good morning.

are you there? let's go to homer, calling from shreveport, louisiana on the democrat line. good morning. caller: yes. host: go ahead, homer. caller: i am an 80-year-old veteran and i don't understand why we took all the good giants -- jobs and sent them to china. that is what behooves me. thank you, sir. guest: you are right. we sent jobs but invited them into the global system because

americans sent the jobs because they thought they could find good supplies and cheap labor. the goal was to make china file had a real stake in the international system we built up with allies after world war ii so they would cooperate and support it and become our friend and liberalize with time. that was always the theory the democrats and republicans had through both bush administrations, clinton and going back to nixon, ford, carter, reagan. it did not pan out that way and china has been using its greater power and more assertive and aggressive ways and also not playing by fair rules economically. we are seeing a new american consensus developed under both president trump and biden that we have to be tougher with china and less willing to trade with them if they are not playing

fair and be more vigilant about military modernization and prevent them where possible to get certain technologies that will help them be more militarily modern. without they would behave well and support the system that was the goose that laid the golden egg. that has not played out the we we hoped. it did for a while to a certain extent, but it's time is done. host: let's talk to john calling from northfield, california on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning, c-span. to what degree does the guest think thorton's direct affiliation with chinese communist party pundit initiatives like belt and road and confucius institutes shapes

the brooking institute's narrative on china. i would like to also address mr. thorton's chairmanship of the finance board which funds belt and road initiatives which christopher wray identified as a direct threat to u.s. national security. guest: john thorton is a great american and has done a lot of good work in china. but the broader question is where do we come. we don't have an institutional view on china. one book written recently talked about china's long-term ambitions to dominate the western civic. he did archival research into shares the concerns you just expressed and that book really was seen as perhaps the single most authoritative way to understand china's thinking in the words of its own leaders.

that was the brookins -- brookings books published in 2021 era to have talked about the importance of the united states improving its own strength and diplomatic engagement through mechanisms like the office arrangement with the united kingdom and australia and also with japan and india, or we have tried to our game with the allies under a couple of administrations in tried to tighten the cooperation that could push back against china. that his been strongly supported . on belt and road, you are vigilant to be worried in the various analysis i have seen on belt and road, many times china has tried to make loans with other countries not on fair terms that benefited the chinese country and employment firms and countries like pakistan and

malaysia have been pushing back against those kinds of loans and we had important work at brookings where we have seen various speeches and reports documenting that some belt and wrote projects are perhaps acceptable but many are not and many are unfavorable and unfair terms. i think we share a lot of the concerns you raised in your question. host: china's new foreign and esther had a speech recently that had -- newgn minister had a speech recently. they said policies designed to contain and repress china inll respects driven by what he calls an hysterical -- and said the if the united states continues to speed down the wrong path, that will surely be conict and confrontation and who will bear

the catastrophic consequences? is this just rhetoric or an actual threat? guest: we will all bear the consequences and certainly china will too. as to what motivates that, it is mostly sincere. i think both the united states and china and see the relationship with each other as badly broken and we will have to find ways to keep that from escalating. i think there is a lot of basis for our pushback and china feels that all of the sudden we have changed our strategy towards them and trying to suppress them , and they are half right, because we decided all the advanced technologies in improved models are being used in ways that make the western pacific region were dangerous and increased the chances for war because china is pushing around not just taiwan but trying to challenge japan over

control and trying to dominate the south china sea and keep others out of the south kind she -- south china sea. we don't like this behavior and we have wished back and china doesn't like that we are pushing back. they will have to accept that but both sides will have to find ways to ratchet down half a degree the potential for a rush to confrontation because if we convince ourselves conflict is inevitable, if he believes that, it is important and is worrisome. host: a social media wants -- follower wants to know, how does our massive debt to china impact our relationship? guest: it works both ways because china wants the debt to be serviceable and to be paid back so if they have a trillion dollars in our bonds and we go to war, that is not a promising

situation forgetting that act. i don't like the amount of dependence we have on foreign creditors and china is the most concerning of all with the amount of money in the amount of debt we owe to them, but that is money they want back and they only get it back if the international economic system works in a peaceful and successful way going forward. if it puts the chinese boot on our throat that increases our vulnerability but mutual dependency the two sides have, which i think of cooler heads prepare -- prevail will keep us from going to war. we still have a lot of economic trade with china and that is probably a good thing. i want to reduce the high-tech stuff because i don't want them to get further ahead militarily, but having both size meet each other is a good way to reduce the risk of war.

host: is tiktok a valid security concern to the united states? guest: it could be because it gives china access to our airways to the extent they want to send messages targeted and they want to swoop up data about us and the more americans that are engaged in tiktok probably does increase the risk in that sense. i am not worried about people sharing dance videos too much and whether the chinese see you and me doing a goofy dance, but i am worried about them having our information about ourselves and kids and families and also being able to reach us in ways that may prove nefarious. as long as we know have this potential, i think we are less likely to be surreptitiously have our brains influenced by the chinese in a manner we don't

see coming and i'm not worried about the 1984 scenario where they sneak in the propaganda subconsciously into our sleeping brains and would all turn communist. i don't like them having the data. host: let's start with leo calling from el cajon, california on the independent line. caller: i hear people quote john f. kennedy and martin luther king, the quote that scares me the most is beware of the ides of march. if you fast-forward to 1929 in march, the western democracies fell into a recession and it wasn't long after that before things fell into a depression and during that time, the migration of people from communist countries flooded into western democracies and it

overloaded the system and those democracies and that is when the enemies struck and that was world war ii. what i am concerned about is the banking systems across the western micro sees her falling into chaos and with the migration overloading these systems, i'm afraid we are in the position that is untenable. my question to you, if i may, is history repeating itself? i will take it off-line. guest: thank you. i don't think history is repeating itself in any kind of exact way, but i share your concerns about a number of things you alluded to, including the way in which economic problems and collapse can create the potential for governments coming to power that could prove dangerous.

either way, you come into trouble. at the chinese grow too fast, that gives them power and they think history is on their side and they may become more assertive. if a country does bad economically, they feel like they may has well start a war because the way it is going without or isn't good either. you mentioned the ides of march coming up this wednesday. lee iris like to focus more on st. patrick's day coming up this friday but plenty of bad things happen every month in history. he mentioned martin luther king was assassinated in april. the north koreans attacked south korea in june. hitler's invaded france in may. i don't think any month has an exclusive province over bad news, not that that was necessarily your point. i think the final observation i would offer is the world still has a lot of strengths today and

it is a tense and complicated moment we still have an international economic system that has brought more people out of poverty than ever before in history and despite the setbacks to democracy in the last 15 years, we still have a higher percentage of people living in free countries then ever before in human history. i think the forces of time are largely on our side if we can get through this challenging period or the next few years. host: let's talk to thomas calling from new haven, connecticut on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i missed the pursed part -- missed the first part, but can i ask your guest a science question? guest: give it a try. caller: i am a professor in new england and early on in the

covid-19 crisis, we found a paper in a top journal where harvard, the sba, chapel hill, with carolina all collaborated on the paper and they were trying to make strains of covid-19. they had mice. i understand we have some very bad actors in this world and certainly china is one of them and i understand we have to do scientific research in this area in case there is a bioterrorist target, but why was this published ny were we collaborating with the wuhan

lab? why was the u.s. government allowing us? you know the chinese are bad actors. and where is the outreach about where this covid-19 came from? it has been called a conspiracy theorist if you pointed to china. i hope you get to the bottom of this. guest: workings is not far left, flat wrong. the conspiracy theory you are talking about in my judgment is unfounded but there is a serious question as to where the virus came from and whether it could have been some kind of escape in escape doing research carelessly or incorrectly and unnecessarily.

those are legitimate questions about chinese behavior at that and i agree we need to learn more about that. i do not agree that there was some collaboration with chinese on the u.s. to create this coronavirus. i think that is wrong. host: i want to talk about russia as well. here is what the annual threat assessment had to say about russia for this year. there is real potential for russia's military failures in the war to ht ssian president vladimir putin's domestnding and thereby trger additional escalatory actions by russia in an effort toin back. it is claimed the united state is using ukraine as a proxy to weaken russia and ukraine's military is only a result of u.s. and nato intervention could

bring further russian escalation. guest: there is no doubt our weapons are helping to keep ukraine afloat and i doubt they could without our help. it is certainly true that putin has to worry about how his population is going to feel about a war that perhaps has already caused 200,000 russian casualties and hundred and 50,000 -- and 150,000 injured. it is two to three times the number the russians lost in the afghanistan war over a decade. this is an enormously costly war for on stern -- long-term economic prospect and all the russians leaving because they are frustrated about the work. the russian people for the most part seem to buy putin's narrative that we caused the war

, that this is a defensive war they are fighting to make sure the west doesn't further encroach upon them. they are being fed that by the russian dictator and i use that specifically and deliberately because that is what he has been -- he has become even though he got there through election he does not tolerate a free press and the russians are being fed a diet of malarkey. you can debate that we shouldn't have gone as far east with nato as we had but it doesn't mean we are aggressive in intent. but the russians formed their own opinions and what we find in the history of war is that most of the time countries and people we think are in the wrong that history shows we are in the wrong, at the time they didn't realize or think they were wrong. i am afraid the human tendency is to double down and support conflict that your country has

become enmeshed in. host: we just talked about russia, how much of a concern is the middle east to american security? guest: kit is always a worry and my friend ken pollock -- it is always a worry in my friend ken pollock reminds me that just when you think things could get worse in the middle east they can. with terrorism concerns and the fact that our friends and partners like israel and jordan live in that region and may need our help one way or another to stay safe is a region that has to concern us. it has essentially been demoted in the pecking order of american strategic priorities below china and russia in the last decade or so. after dominating our concerns about national security for 9/11 and the next 10 to 15 years, it is now into third place among

local hotspots with east asia and the broader region around ukraine being robbed with a top two. the middle east is still important and can cause us headaches and has huge problems and for terrorism and bad governance and dictatorship, i don't think most of these threats are likely to reach out and strike us here we built up much better homeland security and intelligence and even in the aftermath of the afghanistan withdraw, it appears we are able to keep a good eye on potential terrorist rats from afghanistan, even without being on the ground, at least so far. the broader region requires vigilance from us but probably is not our top national security concern. host: let's start with carmen, calling from pompano beach, florida on the democrat line. good morning.

caller: i don't get into conspiracy theories too much and i firmly believe the people in charge right now that we are better off than we were with the other party. it sickens me there are people in congress that were sort of in the background supporting russia. it blows my mind. i think it was naive of us to think that china someday might like the fact that we have this capitalist country and we will live happily after ever but some of that is true but we were naive thinking a communist country is going to change their ways and be more like us. to follow up on homer's question, what are we doing to wean ourselves off these communist countries thinking we are going to be able to control

them one day that is never going to happen. i think biden and those in charge are doing the best but the fear mongering has to stop. our country is the most powerful military country in the world and the reason this stuff is happening is because other people feel threatened from us. i feel with people calling in the fear is we have to worry more about them. we just have to be more proactive and start winning ourselves -- leaning -- weaning ourselves. guest: i think the strategy and i largely agree with it is that we are trying to limit our high-technology trade with china to make sure they can't use it against us, whether through

military modernization, intelligence and espionage and weakening some of our allies and partners but we are maintaining quite a bit of cooperation in what you might call low in middle levels of technology, partly because we developed this dependency but it also gives china an incentive not to essentially break off and become reckless and disengage from the international in many ways like vladimir putin has done. we are essentially allowing commerce to continue, feeling it is usually beneficial and gives china a real stake not going to war. i essentially agree with that strategy but we need to be able to further reduce our dependence on china in some areas rare earth metals, certain medicines and components and key electronics for the energy sector. if the chinese were to attack

taiwan, and i don't think that would be because of us, that would be their own choice and desire for unification, we have to be prepared at that point not only to perhaps resist militarily but punish them economically and at the time and think you decouple china defensively. host: let's talk to laurie who is calling from youngstown, ohio on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning, everybody. i have a couple comments. everybody is throwing around the world communism, communism and even your guest referred to 1984 could somehow if you put a bug in people's ears they will turn to be a communist. 1984 was written by george orwell, who was a socialist and talking about a totalitarian,

dystopian society. maybe you should read it again, because the united states is really good at having a ministry of truth to turn words around. words do matter. secondly, american hegemony is the problem. we always have to have a big, bad wolf if there isn't one, we will create one. i think war is our baruch and unnecessary. putin was wrong for invading. i don't believe in any worse. it is -- any more -- any wars. let's stop playing the american hegemony game. we are far from the best.

abortion is illegal in this country now for the most part, it went to the states to try to dominate women and dominate blacks. we have a lot of problems we need to address the four go running off and trying to steal everybody else's resources, because that is what it is all about. guest: i guess you missed what i was saying about 1984, because i was agreeing with you, we don't have to worry about the chinese infiltrating our brains through tiktok or that is not my concern. in terms of our role in the world, i think that most americans were pretty happy in the 1990's without any big threats from russia, china, north korea. colin powell said we are running out of bad guys and that was a nice moment. i didn't see a lot of americans looking for a new enemy. but i take the point that we sometimes exaggerate our need to be vigilant everywhere around

the world and often when we have used military power, we haven't done it very effectively since 1945 and we have probably gotten into conflicts we didn't need to and fought them badly. need more caution and discretion and that is easy to say in retrospect, but i still think it is worth pondering a bit. host: let's talk to robin calling from santa fe, new mexico on the democrat line. good morning. caller: i definitely agree with a lot of what the previous caller had to say and the person who accused the brookings institute of bring -- being a left-wing organization, please. i have been conservative and fairly right-leaning since it six -- its inception that i am aware of. i have a very odd question and

off-topic, but why is low unemployment bad for the stock market? i was watching bloomberg and they were screaming about it. all these good employment numbers, people employed in the united states, but somehow that harms the stock market and that harms us globally. that makes no sense to me. i did take microeconomics so maybe that is why it doesn't make sense to me, but can you explain that? guest: i am not here for my economic prowess. and by the way, brookings is not right wing. i have plenty who are leaning left in leaning right what we have to do serious research or we are not given a job. we have to back up whatever we think with analysis.

you didn't come there for an advertisement about workings. i can't give you a lot on economics except to say with a tight market people worry about inflation in the short term and that increases the odds the fed will raise interest rates and that creates a short-term effect that may sometimes drive down stocks. it doesn't mean it is bad for the long-term well-being and i agree with you that we want people employed. my economics is not as sophisticated as it could be either. host: we would like to thank michael o'hanlon, the research informed policy ram director at the brookings institution. thank you for being here. guest: nice to be with you. host: coming back, dr. william schaffner will discuss lessons learned from the response to covid-19 and what comes next as

we had the third anniversary of the pandemic. first, we will go to open forum, or you can call in and talk about your most important political topics. the numbers are on your screen. it starts calling now. we will be back in one moment. ♪ >> preorder your copy of the congressional directory from the 118th congress, your access to the federal government with bio and contact information for every house and senate member, important information on committees, the cabinet, federal agencies and state governors. scan the qr code to redeliver your copy. is $29.95 plus been an handling and it supports our nonprofit

organizations. >> this week, the hou is out in the senate will work on executive nominations, including former los angeles mayor eric garcetti as u.s. ambassador to india and will hold two hearings on president biden's proposed budget for fiscal year 2024. on tuesday, the director of the office of management and budget testify before the senatbuet committee. thursday, janet yellen testifies to the senate finance committee. watch live on the c-span networks or c-span now, our free mobile video app. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> c-span has unfiltered coverage of the u.s. response to russia's invasion of ukraine,

the latest from the president and white house officials, the pentagon and the state department as well as congress. we will have international specter from the united nations and statements from foreign leaders, all on the c-span networks, the free mobile app and c-span.org/ukraine, our web resource page where you can watch the latest videos live or on-demand d followed tweets from journalists on the ground. go to c-span.org/ukraine. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. we are in our open forum segment or you can talk about your most important political topic of the day. we are opening regular lines, democrats can call in at (202) 748-8000, republican's (202) 748-8001, independents, call in at (202) 748-8002.

you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. we are always reading on social media on twitter and @cspanwj and facebook. let's jump into calls and start with eric who is calling from south bend, indiana on the democrat line. good morning. caller: i don't believe the deficit is 31 million -- $31 trillion. i think in 2008, 2009 when we had this great recession, we lost half of the value of our property. everybody, including my house went down to half of what it was worth. that paid for -- we lost $60 trillion among the people in the united states and that paid for

the deficit. we are owed money and could run another already trillion dollars. just think about that -- another $30 trillion. just think about that. who got rich on it and who paid people with cash money, the one that always complained the dollar is worth anything because we are borrowing, they overnight could buy twice as much product with the same amount of money after the great recession and the people that really got harmed where the people who old a lot of money in those always buying on credit. they got really hurt because when they bought a house that was worth $300,000, it was now only worth $150,000 and they still owed roughly $300,000 on it.

there was a winner and there was a loser, and i guarantee you other countries, japan for instance, have an outrageous deficit and are doing very well. host: let's go to dave calling from texas on the republican line. good morning. caller: yes, i would just to remind all the democrats who are calling about the crisis at the border. how about the rick dawe -- the withdraw from afghanistan? you can't find baby formula. the disaster at our airports, train derailments. will you democrats please, please wake up.

this is ridiculous. we had less than 2% inflation under donald trump. we had gas prices at two dollars 50 since a gallon -- at $2.50 a gallon. now it is almost four dollars. are you democrats totally unaware of what is happening around you? joe biden turns everything, that is up to the department of energy, no, he takes no responsibility for anything. host: let's talk to joe who is: from fayetteville, north carolina on the independent line. -- joe who is calling from fayetteville, north carolina on the independent line. caller: there was a book written

that says you bankrupt your country when you spend money on foreign wars. you have to be on the defensive against your enemy. if you have to look up for your enemies all the time, they don't have to look out for you that you are losing. that is what we are doing with the war on drugs and with this or on terror. we are looking all the time trying to protect ourselves and they are not worried about us. that is all i have to say. host: let's go to joseph calling from compton, california on the democrat line. good morning. caller: good morning, america.

i would like to stick to the issue i see going on to my christians. there is a word in the bible, israel. israel is not dropping bombs. israel is the love of god and now they have taken the love of god and made it a place and now it just dropping bombs, christians. it is backwards that we need to stand up and call these things out. that's how corrupted this thing is. israel cannot be dropping bob's -- bombs on people, but they have created a place and now it is about war. all i am conquering now is simply for us to just work together in the concept of jubilee and starting time over.

everybody must resign, all public officials must resign. it is not term limits, with term limits, everybody has a right to reapply. everybody can reapply for office but everybody must resign. start time over and give this generation the opportunity to pick its leaders. host: let's go to ben, who is calling on the republican line. caller: i have two questions my first one is -- how come he did not just leave it alone like it was under the president trump?

host: what are you talking about? caller: president biden. host: keep going. caller: i just wish he would have left it alone because it seemed like the government, jobs, gas, everything was economically real good. we ran into covid and they went way overboard on that and a lot of money never recovered, all kinds of funny stuff about that. my other question is -- you don't talk about giving millions away, he just wants to give billions here and billions there. now you are going to tax the united states of america and i just can't see it.

i am just a little man trying to make it. trying to make it up the ladder if you know what i mean. host: let's go to skip from land o lakes on the independent line. caller: good morning. i wanted to ask you, earlier you were talking about people who didn't pay taxes, the wealthy guys, and i am not a defender of them. you picked on elon musk saying he didn't pay taxes in one certain year. why didn't you also just say that he was the single largest independent taxpayer and he paid $11 billion, not million but billion, to the irs in 2019? it is very disingenuous that you

come out and use him as the guy who is not paying any taxes. he has paid more taxes than any human being in the united states. host: if you heard the story that i read, it came from pro public, and theyid not just name elon mus ty also named jeff bez, chael bloomberg, george soros, warren buffett, and mark zuckerberg. we didn't just pick elon musk out of the bucket, that was the first three paragraphs of the caller: so, you guys do not do anymore research, you just pick from a piece and go, let's pick on this guy? host: so you missed the other nine people named in the first three paragraphs? caller: these rich people pay taxes. one lady said i pay real estate taxes, acting like donald trump does not pay real estate taxes.

everybody who owns real estate pays real estate taxes. host: the story is about federal income taxes, not real estate taxes. caller: into oblivion. you need to stop talking about taxes, start talking about spending. they need to stop spending. they doubled the budget in three years. how did they go from $3.5 trillion to $7 trillion in our budget? you cannot do that and exist as a country. we are going bankrupt and you are talking about nothing. host: let us go to hermann from georgia on the democrats line, good morning. caller: the big problem is this. first of all, the united states needs to do when they got a

warning from god, they were doing a the stuff america is doing with all the drag queens and homosexuals and democrats. on the republican side, all this hatred. they better go to first corinthians six verse nine and 10 and revelations 21 verse eight and see how god feels. they repented. america needs to repent of all the stuff they are doing and go to the scriptures and god will do what he did and change his mind. host: let us go to david from riverside, california on the republican line. good morning. caller: hello, good morning. every president since ronald reagan has ended their speeches with god bless you and god bless

america. biden is the first president in decades to say god bless the troops and not god bless america. it seems like a small thing, that as a president, hopefully they will not be followed. it makes him sound like a military dictator or something. he picked a black woman for vice president, which is fine. but he said he would only pick a black woman. according to the 1964 civil rights act, it is unlawful to discriminate on the base of sex or race in hiring. he picked a supreme court justice, all black women, which is fine, but to do it on purpose is racist, sexist, these are high public positions. every race and gender should have a chance, not just 6% of the population. god bless the united states of america. host: south carolina on the democrat line, good morning. caller: good morning.

my fraternity has a motto that friendship is essential to the soul. but the main reason i am calling is because we have callers like the last caller who criticized biden, then the caller from texas who kept bragging about trump. it makes me wonder, because we have groups of people going around shooting up public utilities, electronic utilities, power companies, the substations that provide power to neighborhoods. they are not bidens people, they are considered to be white supremacists. the reason i wanted to call is because the biggest 13 america

is people like -- threat to america is marjorie taylor greene, -- people like marjorie taylor greene, we need division and divisiveness that comes out of that group. i live right where the murdoch trial was at, it was at least 10 different media companies there and nobody took any of the 85 ton confederate monument that set right where they were interviewing people. they were interviewing on the right and left, but not one media company except for msnbc showed in a quick clip at the end of a run of pictures from the murdoch trial. if you are going to push for someone like desantis,

confederate monuments in florida , if you are voting for desantis and you want to stop kids from learning our history, why is it you want to stop them from learning our history then have these gigantic confederate monuments they have to live under. that is almost like having jewish people live under the swastika for their entire life. host: that is a mighty fine fraternity you belong to. let us come to james, calling from fort smith, arkansas on the independent line. good morning. caller: i've got a question for you. under the clean water act in the 117th amendment under the 118th congress it was signed into play the u.s. government could torment people under the clean

water act and this is not a joke. this is where the u.s. government's hands are dirty. the u.s. senate needs to fess up for the things they did. host: let us go to jan from illinois on the independent line, good morning. caller: hello. host: not pedro, keep going. caller: i can still keep going? host: go ahead with your comment. caller: ok. i am listening to a lot of people talk about a lot of different things. when i spoke about the threats to our country the other day, i said it was autocrats. i think the same thing is true in this country. you can either select what i think is an autocrat on the far right or be more open to all the

possibilities we have for president next year. i have not made up my mind, because i consider myself independent. i hear a lot of people come in criticizing biden for all of the woes we are seeing from inflation to the different threats posed by china and russia and other autocrats in the world, that is what upsets me. people need to listen to one another and form your own opinion. that is why i've always been independent. i think the theme of living in this state of illinois, land of lincoln, the threat of estate divided cannot stand may hold true even in this country of people do not together and listen to one another and form their own opinions. host: another from illinois on the democrat line, good morning.

i guess she dropped, let us talk to ray from colorado on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning morning, am i coming in clear? host: we can hear you, go ahead. caller: i am a registered libertarian i want to give a shout out to to the libertarian party of colorado. the colorado state convention is coming up april 1 and second, we will be voting on a proposal to the bylaw and platform and also expected to have guests, including a former presidential candidate. if you want more details, just go to lpcolorado.org. host: virginia on the republican

line, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call, i am hearing a lot of people calling in and commenting on the bible. i'd like to give them a website. go to shepherdschaple.com. russia will come against us, it is in the bible. but they will be stopped, they will be buried. if you want to learn about this thing and other things in the truth of god's word, go to sh epherdschapel.com host: we are in open forum, you can call in and talk about your most important political topics. the lines are democrats (202) 748-8000, democrats (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002.

you can always text (202) 748-8003 and bear always on social media on twitter -- and we are always on social media on twitter @cspanwj and facebook at facebook.com/cspan. former vice president mike pence was the main speaker at the gridiron dinner and offered some of the strongest criticism of former president donald trump. here's the stories from today's washington post. in a speech saturday night, former vice president mike pence delivered a strongest rebuke of donald trump, criticizing the former president his role in the lead up to the january 6 attack on the united states capital and attempts to rewrite the history of that day. president trump was wrong, pence said. i had no right to overturn the election. his reckless words endangered my family and everyone in the

capital that day. i know history will hold donald trump accountable. the former vice president was speaking at the gridiron dinner, white tie dinner thrown by journalists and washington, d.c. that featured speeches by the secretary of state antony blinken and new jersey governor phil murphy. once again, former vice president mike pence delivering his strongest criticism against donald trump. another thing this weekend is people are wondering about the condition of senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. people.com has a story that talks about what is going on with mitch mcconnell, i will read a couple of quick paragraphs to you. set a minority leader mitch mcconnell is doing well after being hospitalized following a fall at a dinner event on wednesday. the senator's longtime political advisor said. he told nbc news on friday he

had been at the hospital with mcconnell the last two days and the senator had been walking around, asking staff questions and was eager to leave and return to work. he tripped at a local hotel during a private dinner and was admitted to the hospital in order to receive treatment. a representative from the republican told people in a prior statement. according to one of his closest advisors, mitch mcconnell is doing well and eager to leave the hospital. we are in open forum, you can call and talk about your most important political topic. let us talk to diane from ohio on the democrat line. good morning. caller: good morning, nice to see you back. i've watched this show almost every morning. people are not really listening to the show, or they would not be saying some of the things they are saying.

i want to say one thing, we also should discuss the domestic problems we are having and with the migrants coming in. last night, i found out on news nation only 0.02%, according to cato whoever that is, that is how many migrants are bringing in the drugs. another time on your show, on washington journal, one of the speakers mentioned people who are coming through the border, white americans are the ones that are bringing in the fentanyl. we have got to stop this, we have cartels in almost every

city. they are working with the white supremacists and white gangs, they do not care about color. the color they live is green. host: let us go to grant from new york city on the republican line, good morning. caller: good morning, c-span. i watched the movie judgment the other day and i was struck terrified by the similarities between nazi germany and america today. for instance, every newspaper in america -- this is reported by the new york post, so if you've got a beef, not you, but your audience. every newspaper in america, with the exception of two newspapers, endorsed biden for president.

you are a journalist, you know how that works. first the newspapers, the times and washington post, then the talking heads get up to 10 million, they take the headlines from these newspapers and push it. what we are getting is left-wing propaganda. i saw walt disney the other day, the walt disney show. i am old enough, i remember the old walt disney movies. this was rooted in satanism. host: we would like to thank all of the callers who called in for open forum, this weekend marks three years since the world health organization first called the outbreak a pandemic. dr. william schaffner, an

infectious disease professor at vanderbilt university, will join us in a few moments to discuss the lessons learned from the pandemic and what is ahead and what is next. we will be right back. ♪ >> if you are enjoying book tv, sign up for the newsletter using the qr code on the screen to receive the schedule of upcoming programs and more. book tv every sunday on c-span2 or anytime online at booktv.org, television for serious readers. >> c-spanshop.org is c-span's online store. roaster apparel, books, home to core and accessories. -- browse through apparel,

books, home decor and accessories. shop now or anytime. >> this week on the c-span networks, the house is out. the senate will work on several executive nominations, including former l.a. mayor eric garcetti as u.s. ambassador to india. the senate will hold two hearings and president biden's proposed budget for fiscal year 2024. on tuesday, the director of the offi o management and budget will testify before the senate budget committee and thursday, the treasury secretary testifies before the senate finance coite. watch this wee live on c-span ks or c-span now, the free mobile video app. head over to c-span.org for scheduling information or to stream video live or on-demand, anytime. c-span, your unfiltered view of government.

>> listening to programs on c-span for c-span radio just got easier. tell your smart speaker play c-span radio and listen to washington journal daily at 7:00 a.m. eastern. important congressional hearings and other public affairs events throughout the day and weekdays at 5:00 and 9:00 eastern, catch washington today for a fast-paced report of the stories of today. listen to c-span any time tell your smart speaker to play c-span radio. c-span, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back. three years ago yesterday, march 11, 2020, the world health organization declared covid-19 a pandemic. we are joined by venable university infectious disease professor, dr. william schaffner , who is here to discuss with us the third anniversary of the

covid-19 pandemic and what is next. dr. schaffner, good morning. guest: good to be with you. host: three years ago, march 11, the world health organization declared covid-19 a pandemic. since then, there has been a total of 104 million confirmed u.s. cases. there is been 1.1 milliou.s. deaths. around theorld, globally, there is been 600 76 million confird casesnd 7 million deaths. this is all since march 11. dr., is the pandemic over? guest: certainly in the united states and much of the developed world, we've moved from the pandemic phase to what we call the end that make phase. --endemic face.

that means it is not stressing our health care system the way it was, but it is still around. it is being transmitted, but we are in a better phase, that is because so many of us have either had covid or been vaccinated, or both. what we call in medicine depopulation immunity is much higher than it was previously. also, the viral strains that are out there, omicron and its subvariants, are milder, but still very contagious. they are still spreading, still causing thousands of hospitalizations and, something around 300 plus or minus deaths in the united states on a daily basis. we need to keep our guard up. the virus has not disappeared, though it is now in the endemic

chronic phase. host: you are an expert in this area, what were some of your personal reflections over the last three years? what did you learn that you did not know about your area from the covid-19 pandemic? guest: [laughter] how much time do we have? there are indeed some lessons to be learned. one of the most important is -- and this reinforces stuff that we and public health new for years. among the most important things one can do when a pandemic strikes a population is clear, science-based, repeated communication. communication in a form that the average person can understand.

make the public health recommendations as simple as possible, as clear as possible, based on science and to say them repeatedly. the other thing i think is important is, you need national leadership. i think of it like an orchestra. many different instruments. we have many different states. but the orchestra instruments do not all play the same note at the same time. but they are all playing from the same sheet of music and, under the leadership of a single conductor. when that happens, you get harmony, beautiful music. if each instrument went off and did on their own, what you get is descendants, noise, chaos. i am afraid we had the noise and chaos, because instead of national leadership, it was subcontracted to the states. states did different things,

hence an awful lot of confusion. that contributed to a loss of trust in public health authorities. we have to be clear, we have to communicate. very explicitly and clearly, to the public with the national recommendations are and they need to be national. you can have local variations, but we all need to sing from the same sheet of music. we need to do this together to respond to a pandemic. host: i think this was some of the first times americans saw doctors working in real time trying to figure out something they had never seen before. it kind of shook everybody, because we are used to doctors knowing facts instead of theories and hypotheses. we have never really seen our most trusted people not knowing

an answer at the very beginning, i think that shook a lot of people at the beginning. guest: that is a very, very trenchant observation. that turned out to be much more difficult for the general public to understand and accept. when covid struck, we opened up our textbooks, figuratively speaking, to covid. what did we find? blank pages, because we never had the covid virus strike the global population. we had to do public health research, laboratory research, research at the bedside, how best to take care of these patients. as we learned more, we told the public more. but that meant everybody had to be flexible, we had to understand today, we are telling you the best we know.

tomorrow, we will know more and we may have to change your mind about some things. this was very hard. the public had to do their homework, they had to keep up. this was very, very difficult. to this day, i think continues to be difficult for many people. host: given what you just said, what do we know about covid-19 today and what don't we know about covid-19 three years later? guest: we know a vast amount. part of the response that was the best of covid was the research response. not only here in the united states, but around the world. in the laboratory, we began to study the virus instantaneously. we quickly developed but -- developed diagnostic tests that could be used at home.

we do not have that for most diseases. we developed new vaccines lickety-split, we did not cut a single corner. the new science allowed the development of new vaccines. we developed new therapies, that was wonderful. at the bedside, doctors learned how the virus -- how it made them sick some -- so we could anticipated. we sure do -- shared the information so we could help patients leave the hospital faster, we lowered the fatality rate. in public health, we learned so much more about how the virus spread and continues to spread. are we learning more? absolutely.

just one example, we are still struggling with long covid, the symptoms that persist after people recover. we are trying to figure out how the virus does that and how we can better treat a patients --our patients so they get better faster. still lots to do and more to learn. host: let me take a second to remind viewers they can take part in the conversation. we are opening up regular lines, that means democrats can call in at (202) 748-8000. republicans (202) 748-8000. --(202) 748-8001. independents (202) 748-8002. keep in mind, you can always text us at (202) 748-8003. we are always reading on social media on twitter @cspanwj and on facebook at facebook.com/cspan.

dr. schaffner, do we know the origins of covid-19? guest: we know the ultimate origin of the virus, it was certainly a virus that spread among wild animals, we do not know which ones exactly. but this is indeed a virus that jumped species. the current debate, and it continues, it -- it did it just jumped species like so many other viruses have done? or, was it studied in a laboratory, then the laboratory had some sort of reach and its infectious -- breach in its infectious control policy cedars that it quote unquote leaked from the laboratory.

in other words, an accident that led it out. i am not sure we will ever really know. i will tell you, the species jumped from the wild is something thattwo previous coronaviruses did. corona as part of the coronavirus family, one was sars and the other was the middle east syndrome, then there are so many other viruses that have done that. we had a new upgrade. what we used to call monkeypox, that was also a virus that jumped species and went into humans. the zika virus, bola, human immunodeficiency virus, the new influenza strains that occur periodically. all of these viruses are viruses that were circulating in the

wild, in animals and insects. sometimes, got into humans, then were able to spread. host: one of our social media followers wants to see if they can get you in a little trouble. i will redo a question and let you decide whether you want to answer. could the guest list, in his opinion, what states handled covid well and which states did it poorly? guest: all of the states handled covid to their own ways. i think the general northeastern states, the acceptance of vaccines, mask wearing, social distancing was more widespread. they did a much better job than some of the states in my neck of the woods. tennessee remains a somewhat under vaccinated state, i'm sorry to say. there were many people during

the social distancing, mask wearing period who were reluctant to vaccines. i do not think we did as well as some of the other states. i wish we had all worked together on the same sheet of music, the same kinds of recommendations. i think we would have had a better response and reduced and avoided many of the deaths and hospitalizations. host: the biden administration says it intends to end the covid-19 public emergency on may 11. what does that mean? how does that affect the everyday person? guest: from the point of view of the availability of tests and vaccines, will the vaccine still be free? that is one of the benefits of the pandemic response. all of that remains to be seen.

most of us in public health or a little bit concerned, we are more than a little bit concerned we will be dealing with issues of equity. in the beginning, when the vaccines first were available, there is a distinction between people such as myself, who are caucasian, white, it in the acceptance of the vaccine and minority groups. african, muslim people, hispanic people. because institutions such as my own and local and state health departments really worked hard to reach out to all the diverse populations that we have in the united states, rather quickly, the acceptance of vaccines by all of these different populations that we had, they

also accepted vaccines and, pretty soon, the hispanic population, african-american population and white population, vaccine acceptance became comparable. we had equity. now, if we go back to the conventional model that we had in our health care system in the united states, we are going to be concerned we will once again have disparities creep into our pandemic response system. we will have to work very hard to try to avoid that. host: there are still people who think covid-19 deaths are deaths that were caused by something else, by flu, some other disease. one of our social media followers asked this question to try to differentiate between flu and covid.

how do current covid deaths compared to average flu deaths? this is before all flu deaths were covid deaths. did people die from covid-19, or where the deaths caused by something else? guest: the answer to all of those questions is yes. let us try to dissect that a little bit. there is not any doubt covid is a virus that, like influenza, can strike in normally healthy person and put them in the emergency room within 48 hours. it has that capacity. in the estimates from the cdc on number of deaths caused by covid clearly are a very accurate estimate. in addition to that, we continue

to have covid and influenza infecting people who already have an underlying illness. let us say you have underlying heart disease or lung disease or liver disease. now, you get infected with influenza color your partner who has the same illnesses gets infected with covid. those viruses can make your underlying illness worse and tip you over such that it can have a fatal outcome. did you die of the underlying illness that was made worse, or did you die of influenza or covid? different doctors will fill out the death certificates in slightly different ways. one thing is sure. if it had not been for the viral infection, influenza or covid,

even though you had underlying illness, you would still be alive today. most of us, myself included, would write down on the death certificate that covid was the principal cause of death, contributing causes where the underlying heart disease, lung disease, liver disease, whatever you are suffering with before. there is not any doubt that both covid and influenza are viruses with preventing, you will hear the message this fall. please get vaccinated. yes, against the flow. all of us should get vaccinated against influenza each fall. in addition, i predict we will hear the recommendation that we all get updated covid boosters at about the same time. we need to do that, we need to keep our guard up.

otherwise, both of these viruses can make many people sick annually. host: let us go to the phone lines, starting with christine in rhode island. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm calling from the northeast, we had covid so bad when it started that i lost five family members in my circle. my daughter had covid twice, i am very concerned. her and the children have been sick for over a year now. the baby is in daycare, she is catching everything. but my concern was, we did not know what it was. that made it very frightening.

nobody really knew what to do. that is why they shut down everything for the concern of the people, especially the elderly. then, they started with the vaccine. that helped out the situation. but my concern was we were following the governor from new york, along with the person from rhode island that walked us through it every day. i thought that was a great thing to happen. but with all the propaganda and the lies -- i just watch these people saying they do not believe it and see congress fighting back and forth trying to get the wuhan--i do not want to get into that. i am more concerned about letting people know, prevent yourself. at the vaccine, take your flu shot.

sometimes if i know my daughter is sick, i cannot have her over because i have a medical condition. it has been a tough three years, very tough. host: go ahead and respond. guest: thank you for your comments and i am so glad you have recovered from covid. please, going forward, listen to the public health recommendations. they will be coming. this fall, i hope you endure family, everyone, gets her annual influenza vaccine. what i anticipate will be the recommendation will be to get an updated covid vaccine. you will be doing the best to protect yourselves and your family. host: she mentioned the lockdowns and school closures. knowing what we know now, did those work? guest: it is undoubtedly correct

that they worked. the question is, should they have been continued quite as long as they were? that is what we can learn. we have to look back at this experience and say, can we do it better the next time? i think the recommendations regarding lockdowns, particularly school closures, now that we know so much more about the virus, they could have been shortened very substantially. but that is hindsight. looking forward, let us for member the lessons and timely pandemic curves -- there will be another pandemic -- occurs, there will be another pandemic -- i cannot predict when or which virus, let us hope the lessons will remain in her memory so we can apply them better the next time. host: anthony from arizona, good

morning. caller: good morning. one thing i want to make sure we all have an appreciation of is one of my quotes, that is the body does not stop growing, only the mind. dr. schaffner, i reference this because the mental aspect of going through a pandemic, 100 years it took it to take effect on us, is something that is really going to be underappreciated. even now, as we are on the three year anniversary, everybody still wants to shake hands and get up close to you. not everyone is ready for that.

when you tell them i'll put my hand over my heart, i do not need to but my elbow, shake your hand, they look at you like you are crazy. i'm 63, i've lived 63 years, but i've had to have a change of mindset and understand if i go in the bathroom and see somebody not washing their hands, why do i want to shake everybody's hand i come across? again, the body is always going to be growing. but the mindset, that is what you have to change. host: go ahead and respond. guest: anthony, thank you for that. one of the things i would say we have learned, that i certainly have learned, his general response to covid, with all of the mask wearing and social isolation, the lockdowns have a much larger impact on how we

feel. so many people felt isolated and depressed. i do not think we in public health really anticipated what an important aspect of the response to the pandemic that was. apropos of some of the other things anthony said, we still need to get her good, solid, public health messages out. -- our good, solid public health messages out. hand hygiene is a good thing, helps reduce the risk of catching and spreading infectious diseases. wash your hands or use the gels frequently. host: given what we know now, what should americans be doing right now to keep themselves from getting covid? we talked about handwashing, are

you still recommend people wear in public places? are you recommending people isolate? what should americans be doing at this stage? guest: the first thing i would recommend is everyone get the bivalent booster. let me give you one statistic. the latest data would indicate if you have not been vaccinated at all, should you be exposed to the virus, you have a 17 times higher likelihood of requiring hospitalization then someone who has been completely vaccinated. if you've been partially vaccinated, knock on the latest bivalent booster, your risk is two point five times greater of being hospitalized than someone who has been completely vaccinated.

vaccines are critical. lots of people ask me about the masks. excuse me. who are you, i ask? are you older, frail? do you have underlying illnesses? diabetes is common. heart disease, lung disease. are you pregnant? are you immune compromised by virtue of an illness or medicine you are taking/if you fall in to any of those groups, you are what we call high risk. that means if you are going to get infected, you are much more likely to get severe disease, because your body cannot fight off the virus as well. you are much more likely to get hospitalized. those people, if you are in crowds, traveling, going to a basketball game indoors where a lot of people are hollering, is that something you want to do?

if you are in an indoor location, where the mask-- wear the mask. you are at higher risk. the rest of us need to understand and support people who still in public are wearing masks, because either they have an illness -- you cannot tell whether somebody has diabetes -- or they may have someone at home who is getting chemotherapy for cancer and they do not want to bring anything home to that fragile family member. you need to support that. a lot depends on who you are. if you are more frail and more at risk, do not hesitate to wear the mask in public places. host: let us go back to the phone lines and talk to george from kentucky, good morning. caller: thank you. nice to talk to you, dr.

schaffner. my concern is this. for decades, we tried to have market-based solutions to market-based problems and market-based theories. viruses exist out in nature, markets do not. what i am thinking is this. we had hundreds of billions of dollars spent on ads, commercials for medicines and drugs for anything and everything. the motive, justin kohler shall is him -- just in commercialism, developing all the breakthroughs we are making on covid. they admitted having cures for diseases are possible. i am fearful the marketeers will take over all of the research on this, because everybody needs to

have health care. it cannot be turned into a luxury commodity. i will take your answer off, thank you kindly. guest: thank you, you sound like a public health person. the maximum benefit for the maximum number of people, make sure there are no inequities, make sure the benefits of good diagnostics, good treatment and good prevention are available to everyone in our society. i am certainly with you, thank you. host: let us talk to joe from california, good morning. caller: good morning. as far as lessons learned of this health crisis, i'd like to touch base on three things and ask for feedback. number one is the banning of

things that were known to be safe and effective, that is a huge red flag to me. i am interested to know how he feels about banning americans from receiving that available and safe medicine. the second is argen, is he aware of a dharna has a patent on the virus itself and dr. redfield admitted it was engineered by humans? it did not come out of nature, that is important in the hearings congress are conducting is critical to getting the truth out. which leads me to the third area. as he tells people to get vaccinated, is he aware of the vaccine adverse event reporting system the cdc hosts and the number of injuries the vaccine itself has caused around the world to americans, athletes, actors, actresses, people

dropping dead? related to that, is he aware of event 201 where they rehearsed at the end of 2019 with the cia, fbi, johns hopkins and this whole thing was a planned power grab for global government? it was not health related at all. he seems like -- frankly, this guy seems like a sellout and is a big part of the problem instead of the solution. i'd appreciate an honest answer. whatever you say to me right now, that is what you will say. but when you go to bed tonight, i'd like you to search your soul and -- host: i will let you respond, he went off the rails at the end. guest: thank you very much. the sentiments expressed by the caller are out there in various ways. let us deal with the first issue, which has to do with

ivermectin and other agents. they were originally thought to be perhaps effective in the treatment and even prevention of covid. then, the research was undertaken and rigorous large studies clearly show the early promise, unfortunately, did not pan out. the medicine was not banned, but the recommendations were. these were the recommendations from every major professional medical organization, please do not use those, because they do not work. they can only expose you to the adverse effects of the vaccines unnecessarily. that was number one. remind me of what the second issue was? host: he seemed to think someone had a patent for the coronavirus. guest: he cited dr. redfield,

the former director of the cdc, who recently gave testimony to congress. dr. redfield is of the opinion -- he knows it is not definitive , but he is more concerned about a laboratory leak of this virus. i do not know anything about a patent and engineered virus. there is no evidence the release of this virus was in any way malicious. it either came naturally or it in a laboratory and there was a laboratory accident. there was no malicious release of the virus. then there was the third issue. host: the third was this is all a cia false flag power grab,

this was not something that happened naturally. guest: i find it difficult to respond to that. we've had so many viruses that have come on the scene, they have transferred from the wild and caused illness around the world. human immunodeficiency virus, the aids virus, the new influenza strains, zika, ebola, mers and sars. this is a phenomenon that will keep occurring. i am afraid we are not in any way on the same page as the caller, this is not some international conspiracy. it is what mother nature can do. we must respect mother nature and it is a global issue.

that is why we here in the united states need to be aware of what is happening around the world, because something that occurs over there can be over here within 12 hours. we need to work together as an international public health community to get the early radar out to make sure if a new pandemic occurs and it will occur at some point, it is detected early and we can respond in concert in order to protect the world's population as best we can. host: let us talk to john from tennessee, good morning. caller: yes sir. i live just a little bit south of you all, vanderbilt. we are having a lot of long covid and east tennessee. what is the preferred treatment?

guest: long covid can come in many forms. some people have aches and pains, other people have brain fog. some people have difficulty breathing and moving about the we all heard about the loss of taste and smell. we have a long covid clinic that has been established here at vanderbilt and most major medical centers have that. healthy patients get better from long covid as best we can while we try to research to find out what the causes of long covid r. there is no magic response, i've heard about hyperbaric oxygen. i do not believe that is widely accepted yet as a response. but certainly, physicians working with patients can help

them cope with symptoms and fortunately, many patients -- not all, but many patients do get gradually better over time. that is certainly a good thing. host: as you said earlier in the segment, there will be another pandemic. it is not an option of if, there will be another pandemic. what keeps you up at night right now about the future pandemic? guest: what continues to concern me is i am afraid we still have not learned the major lesson, we need to collaborate around the world. wherever the new pandemic first starts, it can spread. covid originated in china in an interior city. but within six weeks, it spread

around the world on every continent except perhaps antarctica. the new viruses have a great capacity, because they are so contagious to spread. we need to work together as a global community, we need to collaborate in public health efforts. political leaders need to realize this is a public health issue. they need to let public health take the lead and support public health rather than undermine it. host: let us see if we can squeeze in one more person, this is tony from michigan. can you get a quick question for us? caller: yes. for years, the cdc was the standard for everything when it comes to viruses. my biggest concern dealing with friends and everything is the disinformation in this country

that has taken more life, i believe, than anything. it is frustrating. i know eight people that have died from covid. none of them were vaccinated, that is the most frustrating part. two of them were very good friends of mine. that is what we've got to focus on his disinformation, thank you, dr. schaffner. guest: i appreciate the clear communication about public health, it is so critical. host: how do we fight this information in the next pandemic? guest: i think we all have to have science based communication. we have to be as clear as possible. recommendations have to be as simple as possible so they can be understood. we have to provide the rationale so people will accept the recommendations.

then, i think political kneaders need to support public health and in so doing if we have a national response, like the orchestra i was talking about, then we will do much better the next time around. host: we would like to thank dr. william schaffner, infectious disease professor at vanderbilt university medical center for coming on with us this morning and talking about the third anniversary of the covid-19 pandemic. thank you for your time this morning. guest: always my pleasure. host: we would like to think all of our guests, all of our viewers and all of our social media followers for another great washington journal. please continue to stay safe and wash her hands. everyone have a great sunday, see you again tomorrow morning for another washington journal. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] [captioning performed by the

national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]