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television providers, giving you a front row seat to democrac ♪ announcer: all week on the washington journal we been taking a closer look at china's military, economic, and geopolitical iluence. to close out tay we lk about china's human rhts record with the researcher for the human rights law. thank you for being here. how would you describe the current situation? human rights situation in china? >> i would say it is very bad and it is getting worse and worse. and it has been getting worse and worse its president xi. came to power in 2012. host: why? who is it haening to? guest: it is happening to people in china and peoe outside of china. he came to power in late 2012 and he tighten the grip over

chinese society over all aspects. more censorship on t internet, the trading of journalists human lawyers activists rights. and master surveillance. it is the control of the class. that is the kind of oppression against the chinese which is the majority of the ethnic groupn china. and the tibetan region and others are -- you see one gets most the -- the most attention because of the region. there's 13 million pple there and most of them are minorities. and the government h carried what we call a crisis agnst humanity in the region. many people are estimated to be

in prisoin the camps. and many are subject to civilians. and not to mention hong kong. and bear is to conan -- there is national security over this population. there is all kinds of control over the population. host: last year it was said that china is responsible forerious human rights violations in the region that you were talking about area explain what the populati is, who these people are, andhy the focus on them. why is china's ship focusing on them -- china's leadership focusing on them? guest: it's a very bigrea in northwest china. there's probay 30 millio

people there. why, is the gornment cracking downn them? because they are not chinese. they speak a different kind of went and practice a different culture. they have a diffent religion and the chinese government does not like that. the chinese g uighur traditionally has been a group that enjoys some baton and b. they speak their own language. and the government does not like . in order to ange that they have to instite massive control, massi human rights violatio in orr to transform the polation into more hunt hun chinese. like me.

i am hun chinese. host: this is getting enough attention? guest: i do not think it is enough attention because of the scale of the violation and the degree of the violation. but you know, the word is getting -- if you pay more attention and also it is bringing more to china addressing the issue. in a way, i'm happy to see this change. host: you said the scale of the abuses according to the ohchr, the crime and abuses include crimes against humanity, forced labor, forced medication, and forced sexual abuse. has china let outside observers into the area? guest: no, not at all. not in any way. journalists from big outlets from any international med were not allowed. you know, you can go there and then the government follows you.

right? so wn you try to you a person -- and you try to interview a person on the street, thenhere will be e government agent there trying to stop you. it is very hard to do any kind of investigation by journalists or by scholars. there's no genuine access to the region at all. we're talking about china and human rights abuses all week this morning. been looking at china and the increasing military, economic, and geopolitical influence in the world. we went take your questions and comments on the human rights part of a conversation this morning. democrats 202) 748-8000 , republicans (202) 748-8001 , and independent (202) 748002 .

and you can also text us at text (202) 748-8003. send us your name and what state you are texting from. or you can tweet at us at c-span -- tweet us @cspanwj. there is ties to democracy activist. take a look. >> 1993 begin assisting and interpreting for this. leading this event who has been released as part of the bid for the 2000 summer olympic games. he was urging to -- that u.s. to condition trade on china's human rights performance. i interpreted for his meeting with senator john kerry, congressman chris, and the secretary of state. our meeting with the cretary

of the state was not allowed to resume and we were arrested soon afterward. in the detention center in beijing in the wee hours of many consecutive mornings police interrogated me about what they had said to the u.s. dignitaries. they were truly afraid that the u.s. might listen. you caimagine my disappointment when i heard on a loud speaker inside my detention cell that president clinton had decided to delink the issues of human rights and trade. i was handed a 2.5 year sentence with disturbing social order and sent to a forced labor camp. inhe labor camp, the food was poor and we worked 12 hours a day. technically, illegal under chinese law. i protested and for that the

cap authorities organized other inmates to beat me up. the beatgs were terrible for two nights and then tapered off. eventually, i was able, with the help of a fellow inmate to smuggle a note about my condition to my mother who faxed it to a human rights organization in new york. and america broadcast the story and other media's picked it up. i was asked for the nt trip in beijing. d with allhat, my treatment in theamp improved dramatical. our guest is joini us she is a senior china researcher is joining us to discuss this. how coon is that? guest: it's very common. if you spe against the chinese government you are detained. you can be imprisoned for years.

and when you are in prison, you are often tortured. but, you know, from this composion, you can see that if thinmates speak up or if anyone in the west has heard of their sties, they check -- -- and press for change. at least change can happen in the ison. short-term and for her the condition changed. the message is, i wish the u.s. government and governments around theorld would speak up for the political activists that are in prison in china. host: it was almost by luck that she was able to get her story out. sneaking a note out. how many people are able to do that and get their story told? guest: especially now in the west when you commit a crime you

can have a lawyer that you choose and your lawyer can speak on your half in the lawyer can bring your message into the world. but in china t government has pressured inmate prisoners to have lawyers that are chosen. so basically, the government is a buy-in lawyer to you. and the lawyer doesn't speak for your interest it speaks for the interest of the government. it is hard for any message that could be brought out by the imprisoned activists. host: let's hear from andrew in houston, texas. democratic caller. andrew, we are talking about china human rights abuses. what is your question or comment? caller: hi, thank you for having me. i have two questions. the first is about the people. -- about the uighur people. i used to live in china. i know that there are around 56 or 57 different ethnic minorities.

the uighurs are one of them. and both are muslim. do you think the religion has to do with chi's persecution of the people? my second question is, as a foreigner who lived in china, i felt during my time there i was treated well, but i had heard things. how are foreigners treated with regards to human rights by the chinese government? thank you very much. guest: the first question of whether religion played a role in persecution, absolutely. no doubt. china is a nominally communist -- atheist country. it is controlled by the communist party. it is an atheist party. you have to pledge in atheist in order to join the party. and the government tries to control anybody who clashes.

i believe in a religion and it plays a huge role. uighurs and othersace persecution. is not just against them it is also the tibetan. they it is also catholics, believe in buddhism. it is also catholics, christians, the government tries to control the catholic church and tries to control the christian church. and so many believers o chose to have their own independent church that is not controlled by the chinese government they were jailed or detained and sentence to less prison time. so absolutely religion plays a huge role. and the second question is whether foreigners are treated better, i definitely think if you are from a western country and you are generally treated badly by the population and the government. obviously, racism played a role. people think the white people

are from rich countries. and they, in a way, if you operate in chinese society you like from a rich country as a white person and you are treated bad. and another issue is western governments really speak up for their citizens. if you are mtreated in china or if you are, let's say, detained for crimes, the embassy cares about your case. they would bring your case in a communication with the chinese government. and that plays a huge role in terms of how you are treed by china. host: on the uighur population the man reported that there is serious human rights abus. the human rights council voted to not hold a debate on the china's alleged human righ violation of the people following the release of their own report. can you tell us why? and what does it say about the u.n. role? guest: well.

you know, the vote is 19-17. so people outside of china human rights issues are not experts on it they feel likit is such a disappointment. but because they human rights council was supposed to have a discussion and they ge human rights violation that is happening. that is why a discussion cannot even happen. but for the people that work in the field we see this as a , victory. because the vote is so close it is 19 no and7 yes. it is ready a huge change in achievent. because in t past, two decades, the chinese government really, really invesd so much. -- really, you know, invested so much. tried to mute the un's voice on china. the chinese government has don so much to line it self with

countries that share same interestwith china. usually a tillery area and -- usually other countries. -- utilitarian countries and . they try tmake the u.n. less critical on the chinese government. i think in the past five years this has been changing. more and more countries are willing topeak up not just western countries but also untries that are kind of in the middle. let's say turkey, it is somewhat authoritian, but at the same time, the violation carried out is the huge population in china. they have been changing the u.n. and i am glad to see the change. i hope the will be more and more critical voice arriving from the u.n. that people and countries are more willing to speak up about human rights violations in china at the u.n.. .

host: are there a handful of countries that can hold china accountable? and if so how could they do , that? gut: the western countries have been critical but we need , other countries. need to work with the states and make them come tether. if more and more stas rallied together, it would be more and more powerful. i think a lot of state that are not willing to criticize china is because of thr economic ties with china. china in pakistan, thailand, malaysia, neria, brazil, all different kinds of countries. so that is a big reason that countries are not willing to speak up against china. but we know the chinese economy is not doing that well. china has been retracting from investments in other countries. and see that that empowers

countries needing to speak up against human rights violations the u.n. or other states like this. host: t's get back to the calls hernan from virginia. independent. caller: hi, good morning. i want to make sure. there is reason -- a real reason of why the chinese how they have been towards a bigger population. there is one aspect which is religion which is peaceful. another thing they practice a practice a col -- cults that advocates violenc the chinese government is thinking way ahead. so it is a country osystem development. [indiscernible] please do not blame all man rights violations all on chinese. in the last 200 years there were human rights violations right in the united states and right outside my house. host: all right what do you make of his comments their calling

the uighur religion a cult. guest: absolutely not. there was no violence a vast majority of 13 million people live there and they are persecuted for naming their children with that name. for women wearing a scarf or men having a beard. you can be sentenced to jail for for having an app about the quran on your phone. you can be sentenced to jail for 10 years for having whatsapp on your phone. those acts are not violent or in

any way that are against china's own constitution and law and they are in jail for basically being themselves i mean, in the past, there were violent actions by very local groups of people. chinese authorities and chinese people. those are very small sporadic and not organized crimes of groups at all. and the punishment against uighur -- every uighur living in at region. host: jim from missouri independent. caller: good morning. i was wondering we've got recently in the past 20 years there's been a big influx of chinese students that have come into our universities in this area. imagine that is going on all arou the country. what i was wondering is, is there some sort of a education or outreach program your organization has to make these people aware of what is going on in the uighur region. because i suspect they do not

even know about it. guest: a very good question i am glad you asked for me, i came to the u.s. in 2009 as a chinese student. i grew up in china and i cannot -- could not get the information i wanted about tibet or the uighur region. and e other massacre. i came to the united states to learn about my own country because here you have the freedom of information. and a lot of the chinese they came here had the same experience you are exposed to a free society and you can get the information th is banned in china. so i think people are getting more information and when i was in the u.s., the people they came from china earlier tried to reach out to me, especially when i was here a tibetan group tried

to -they got in touch with me because ey wanted to show me what was gng on in tibet. for me, currently, my job is to empower the chinesstuden to make them feel comfortable. you know, you can talkbout china. you can get your own group and form discussionsbout china. i think, i would definitely say there are more chine students who are aware of what isoing on in the uighur region. and in hong kong but they are , very afraid of speaking up because chinese government has its own agents on u.s. soil to survey and harass chinese students. a lot of people are worried that

if you, if i, in the u.s. talk about human rights violations whether my parents in china would be harassed by authorities. and when i go back to china i would be harassed by authorities. people have all kinds of fears and they are unwilling to speak up. i would say, how, in the u.s., as a society we are forced in an environment that the chinese people feel less afraid and they -- less afraid to talk about the human rights violation. they feel less afraid learning about the terrible stuff happening in the country. so, you know, how do we encourage them? and for the american government i would say, how do you make sure they are not here harassing and intimidating the chinese people here. host: is that happening to you personally? did that happen to you when you ca here as a stunt? is it happening now? did ur parents, family, friends expeence harassment in china? guest: absolutely. do not want to get into too much detailsecause, you know,

that does not do well for them. but it is not happening to me but it is not happing just to me it is happening to a lot of people that are speaking out about china. they try to take a picture or record a video of you. i would say it is on youtube everybody can wah it. why are you focusing on me and trying to take a veo of me what is the video for? and i think it happens to a a -- happens to a lot of people. host: how do you -- have you reported that to u.s. authorities? why are they -- is there any sort of tracking of these people from china who are here? and are they here illegally? guest: i think for a lot of people do not know how to report it to authorities. human rights watch has been talking to universities. beuse there are so many inese students here. you should create a mechanism

that sends a message to your studentsn campus. let's say you go to an event about china on the campus of george washington university and you feel somebody is trying to harass you, somebody trying to take a videof you or take a picture you. you feel uncomfortable that should be a mechanism by the university that you can report to them and be university should report that kind of incident and send a report to the u.s. government. so there needs to be more that needs to be done by universities and by american government to make sure chinese students feel comfortable living he. and feel that they can sak up. hostok. you turned the cameraround on them. guest: i mean yes. you can take o your own phone and start to videotape them. host: on twitter, is it possible to have freedom of religio within a communist doctrine?

guest: i think it is less abou the government itself being a communist government, it is about how the government doesn't allow the practice of religions of any kind of religion. you can have a communist government you can have a muslim government, you can have a christian government, but if the government allows the practice of your own religion by the people that is fine. but the government and china does not allow this. -- government in china does n allow is. host: ray from colorado text us toay how can we be sure the criticism of china's record is not directed towarchinese americans? guest: that's a very good question and it is very important right now. -- important issue right now. i am a chinese person i live in america. i have been cald racist slurs on the street.

i do not like this to happen. and i want the u.s. government to make it very clear that the criticism in towards -- is towards the chinese government. it is not for the chinese people it is about china carrying out its own violations against the chinese people. and making it clear that a kind of racist action against chinese americans or chinese nationals leaving america cannot be tolerated. they just needo make clear criticisms and actions taken against china are to the chinese government. and also to make it clear that anti-chinese racism and anti-asian racism in america should not be tolerated. host: david st. paul, minnesota. democratic caller. caller: have a question for your guestoday. she eps talking about human rights abuses in china but wa to get her take on the

human rights abusegoing on in the u. with people who have not been found guilty of a crime are stuck in our prisons and subject to abuses. and then she also said that people are arrested for no ason in china. did she watcany of the protests in 2020 where people were literally being wrapped up by border patrolgents and police for existing and trying to exercise the first endment right in the u.s.? host: ok, what do you think that comparison? guest:hat is a validriticism of the u.s. government human rights following nations -- rights violations. i am ahina researcher on human rights watch but we alsoave a program document of human rights violations in the u.s. go to our website and we have a a lot of reports covering the criminal justice system in thu.s.. violations with the immigration system. so we do have a department

covering human rights violatio in the u.s. it is just that it is not my job for talking about the u.s. violations. i am not an expert, but we absolutely also criticize human rights violations in the u.s.. . host: for our viewers you can go to their website at hrw.org or you can follow them on twitter at hrw. re is another text. is it absolutely awful what is going on in china? he goes ono write due to chi's strict control how does one fi out about the abuses? i am assuming how the chinesin china find out about the abuses. guest: let's first talk aut the uighur region. why they cannot access the region. people are very afraid to talk about it and how do we find out what is going on there? there are uighurs who were

imprisoned and in detainment camps and then they were released and able to flee the country. those are telling their stories and there are hundreds of ousands of them talking about their stories. and then human rights watch and other organizaons and media outlets have foundhat chinese government official document that are clearly set that we will carry out this crackdown on the people in this region. those doing a, b, c, x, y, z, things. we are going to do. that is direly from the chinese government. some of those are the chinese government documents and they were put on the internet and people are able to pick them out. and then there are satellite images looking from the sky down on this region and you can see the prison camps.

the use of technology is how we utile to find out what is going on in the region. the rest of china there are still a degree of -- the dree of pressure is bad in china but still wet or journalist are able to be in the country to interview people people can be punished by talking to western urnalists. but there is some spacto operate. and also, a big venue for how people find out what is going on in china is the chinese internet. it is very centered if you t try to talk about tiananm square massacre you cannot find

it. but still peop try tfind a way and use euphisms ttalk about what happeneto theand what happened to others. then, sometimes the discuson is so overwhelming that they a not able to offer the formation so they kind of get the formation. -- not able to cer the information so they kind of get the information. so it there are some ways a little bit of base peoplare able to find information. host: the uighur population you mentiod 13 million in that populate the uighur region. would you describe what is going on by china as jim aside? guest: we use the term crimes against humanity. -- describwhat is going on by china genocide. guest: we use thterm crimes against humanity. -- this is forced lar and people that are not in the camp. peop have experience forced abortions and forced sterilization.

there are all kis of crimes carried out against the uighur people and we call it the crimes against humanity. host: what is the distinction? guest: genocide requires an intent to reduce the population. so it is a very technical issue that the legal community is discussing whether there is a crisis against humanity or whether it is genocide. so for human rights watch our determination is that it is a current crisis against humanity. we just have not done detailed assessment to say whether it is genocide or not. we have not done that kind of analysis yet. host: patty in new jersey independent.

caller: hi, good morning. thank you for taking my call. i have a question. this is an article i saw during covid from the new york times. it sort of disappeared from the radar and it has been upsetting me ever since. it was about the chinese health department officials going into residents of china apartments after they were taken away because of covid isolation places and they were murdering their pets. there was a video that showed it with a corgi and it was from new york times so i assume it was real. and then i called the chinese consulatand nobody called me back, but, i was very disturbed by this because you can tell how people are treated in society by how they treat the animals. and that is how the chinese government treats pets. then that is not a very good

sign and i wanted to know what you thought about the article from the new york times about this during covid. where they go into apartments -- yes. host: ok we will leave it there. go ahead and answer. guest: yes, i saw the videos of the corgi who were killed by the health officers because at the time china was under a very strong zero covid policy people were locked down in their apartments. and somehow even the science community already said that pets cannot infect people with workers they just wanted to make sure zero covid. zero covid so that included, you know, it takes to make sure that there is no covid if it means a pet being killed then we killed

the pet. i saw the video with the corgi it is heartbreaking. and people in china are angry. i quarantined in a facility and my pets at home are fine. they should not be killed. and i think the common setting that you saw in the times is that there were more incidents in china. people were talking about their pets getting killed and some of them got published and then exposed in western media. a lot is happening in a country that is really badut not reported by the media. host: following up othat michelle in illinois how much had china used covid to control its population? what was the reasoning for not vaccinating its population? is there any repor demanded by the neral public in china for the lock and have's e -- and has the messaging changed

since they were forced to rollback regulations after they witnessed the world moved on in full display at the world cup? guest: this is such a series of good questions, right? i think the people were very angry when they were on this kind of locked down. at that time that kind of lockdown was completely unscientific and abusive. people did not die from covid at that time. but a lot of people died because they could not get access to hospitals, medical care, and a lot of people were starving because the food delivery was not running smoothly. so they could not get food. after they were confined in their apartments. there was so much anger and then where do you express that kind of anger? where do you protest?

you can't. there is no media relief you cannot call a journalist and say this happened to me can you write about itour paper? so you can go to the internet but the internet is very censored. if you criticize the government your post can be remov. if you do it into much time the -- do it too much times the , government will try to detain you and if you repeatedly do it you can be detained. there is a lot of anger and people know it is right but they are not avenues to express yourself or hold the government accountable. then, the governnt suddenly nixed the zero covid policy. a lot of people died because they were not prepared. the hospitals were not prepared to handle that kind of influx of patients. and then people can go into the government saying accountability -- sayinyou had this zero covid policy and without preparation you suddenly opened

up and a lot of people died. and there is no way you can have -- hold the government accountable. in terms of vaccines, that's a good question. why did the government not do enough to vaccinate people when people were on the lockdown? i do not actually know how to answer tt question because to me it was obvious the government should do that when the chinese government has so much control over the population. why it didn't vaccinate enough percentage of its population. host: when it comes to human rights, does this headline concern you? china's president could visit the russian president putin in a global re with the two of them getting together next week? gut: absolutely it concerns me i mean, the chinese government has been unfair since the beginning after the insion of ukraine was cited with the

-- was sided with the russian government. and it had a change a little bit in trying to say it nted t claim the role for peace. rely it is not it is still in line witthe russian government. i woulsay that there was one journalist a he raed a question abo chin's chinese government aliing wi russia and then he got sentenced to seven months in jail for comments on the chinese social media. you can see how hard it is to speak up against the chinese government policies. not just the human rights violatns. host: mike in illinoisants to know is it norl for the chinese governme to have secret police stations in the united states? and is there a worldwide problem with that? guest: i think it is a worldwide problem with chinese agents. theyre in different countries

trng to rry out harassment and intimidation agast mosy chinese who are living in these untries. it is a worldwide problem. i am glad to see the authorities in different countries are paying attention to this problem and taking actions. in the u.s., last year, the fbi arrested five people who try to -- who tried to intimidate chinese residents leavg the united states. the arrests send a clear message that there will be punishment against the agents -- that do those kind of activities on foreign soil. th was witthe government in the u.k. auralia,anada, , every country. think the government should have more resources to protect thchinese community. because,ou know, i am a chinese living in america.

i really want e u.s. government to do more to find out who are those peoplerying to silence other chinese pple who wanted to speak up critically over the chinese government. host: so, barbarin carmen seville, pennsyania. independent. we turn to you nt. caller: good morning c-span, thank you. and thank youguest for enlightening us on what is going on. at my e i do not know a whole lot of whais happening over there, but i am curious as to how your education ce about. what kind of schooling you had and your parents, if they decided that you could come to the united states or the government keeping you from coming. and iill hang up anlisten to your answer. guest: i ce to the states and

in 2009. it was a differentime. i went to college in chi and the beijing -- happened during the time when i was in college. china was a much freer place and the internet was freer i had access to the new york times and c-span. anthen there were a lot of othechinese people on the chinesinternet talking about democracy. people were ry energized at that time and people wanted to make t country be frr and more justice society. so the government at that time there was always censorship in china but was not as bads it is now. at the time, a young person when they were curious they would go to the internet and talk about things. anin time the u.s. west had democracy and the u.s. had freedom and i wanted to come to learn about thisountry and to learn new things.

that is why i came to the states and that is lying tens of millns of students come to study here. host: here is a text from charles wanting to know why the chinese president triedo emulate durpasshe toll at terrien system of [indiscernible] guest: the party came to power in 1949 in a very vital way. it haslways been brutal to i own people. in the past 40 years there's been economic development. and there have been more liberalization. but then xi jinping came to power and they felt that there was too much liberalization. if we were allowed to access the

internet and have more freedom maybe they would be ouof control. maybe they do not want the communist party anymore. and that feels very threatening. that is like the president there xi started this repression and over time became more and more to totally in. -- two toilet terrien -- totalitarian. becausthey are very scared of losing control over the country. and with economic development the government has the rise of chinese nation. then, that kd of -- repression has been exported into other countries. and that is what -- how, we are, what, the situation right now is where more repression is in the country and the government tries to export that to outside the country. host: miriam in king george, virginia. republican. caller: thank you for having me. i actually moved down to florida but i ke the same phone number.

anyway thank y for your bravery and coitment to bring the subject to ameca's attention. my question is, what kind of human rights violations have he -- have you either witnessed or heard about that the communist party in china as wielded against christians in china and what do you think -- why do you think communists are afraid of religions that believe in a god that controls the person spiritual life and personal life? thank you. guest: thehinese government is definitely carryin-- has been carrying out crackdowns on its own christian community in the past 10 years. you know, i came from a province there are a lot of christian churches. and you know, theovernmt has been tearing down those churches and the buildings you can see from t videos that they just wanted tdemolish them. and the architecture. it is very sad. and also, prominent christian

pastors have been imprisoned. one was an outspoken pastor and an outspoken intellectual and millions in china kw him. and a few yes ago, he was sentenced to 12 years in prison for hang an independent church in china. and why is t government cracking down on christians and other believers about regions? because, you know, the church wants to run independently. people want to believe something that is not controlled by the chinese government. and that -- any kind of independent thinking independent activity is very threatening to the chinese govement. because the chinese government fundamentally wantto control people's behavior and thiing. so if you are ardent christian believer and you believe in god and you do not believe in the

communist party the communist party cannot tolerate that. host: and if our viewers want to learn more from yaqiu ng you can go to hrw.org or you can go to twitter at hrw. that is the human rights watch. thank you very much for the conversation thimorning we appreciate it. guest: thank you for having me. >> there will be a friends of ireland luncheon today at the u.s. capitol. it starts at 1:00 eastern here on c-span you can also watch on c-span now the free mobile video app or online at c-span.org. announcer: fridays at 8:00 eastern c-span brings you afterwards from book tv. authors are interviewed by journalists, legislators, and more.

tonight, they look at how and why selling blood has turned into a $20 billion business in her book blood money she is interviewed by investigative reporter olivia. watch afterwards tonight at 8:00 eastern on cease and. -- on c-span. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more including comcast. >> oh, you think this is just a community nter? no, it is way more than that. >> comcast is partnering with 1,000 community centers to create wi-fi enabled listings for students of low income families canet the tools they need to get them ready for anhing. announcer: comcast supports c-spans a public service, along with these other television providers, ving you a front row seat to democracy. ♪ announcer: start dialing in we wi