>> we will begin with your columns and comments. also, lindsay gorman discusses chinese president xi jinping's statement and the potential influence of her tiktok. washington journal is next. host: former president donald trump held his first campaign rally. leading the pack in the gop

challenges. we will take your calls on the 2024 election michael. who is your candidate for president? dial in at (202) 748-8000. we can also take your texts from republicans at (202) 748-8003, or go to facebook. in our first hour, republicans only. coming up on the washington journal, we will talk with democrats and ask is it president biden or someone else in 2024? take a look at this we sent home

. this is what they found, that the former president is in the lead compared with the florida governor ron desantis at 27%. nikki haley pulling at 3% and all others 8%. 23% say they do not know yet. if you are one of those, we want to hear from you as well as. that poll shows an improvement. they were tied at 33%. former president trump talking about his poll numbers. here is what he had to say. mr. trump: florida has been success for decades.

but when a man that she get elected and there is no quid pro quo. with the perfect call that i made with ukrainian president, but he wins the nomination because of you. two years later, the fake news is up there saying, will you run against the president? will you run? and he says, i have no comment. that is not supposed to happen. i'm not a big fan, but i love -- that is why he wanted to cut social security and medicare, but we are up at levels.

and put the other ones up. people see some numbers that are incredible. we had one today. 69 for trump and 18 or something host: ron desantis -- 18 or something. host: ron desantis sat down with piers morgan. he is on a book tour and he said that he will make an announcement in may, after the florida legislature is done but there were on whether or not he will run for president. in his interview, he talked about how he differs from the former president.

>> if you do decide to run, people have been quite scathing. they said you are diet coke to his full coke. one are the differences? >> i can immediately identify a few differences, but what do you think? >> the approach to covid was different. i feel like dr. fauci got too big for his britches. i feel like he did a lot of damage. i get personnel who have the agenda of the people and share our agenda but when you bring your own agenda in, you are gone. no daily drama. focus on the big picture and put points on the board.

that is something that is very important. host: saying how he differs from donald trump. taking your pulse this morning, we are a ways out from the presidential election, but trump held his valley yesterday. we want to know, who is your candidate in 2024? rhonda, what do you say? caller: i am all for trump. desantis is my second choice, but i am for trump. and i am 70 years old and i will go for him until i die. caller: it is the last time.

that was 13 million more votes he guy than the first time. nobody wants to talk about that. that is why the democrats are so afraid of trump. he has 75 million legitimate votes when joe biden -- they changed the election laws and all of the cities and that is the only reason why joe biden won. and then they call him an election denier. no. it is real. how can he have the most votes in american history and four months later, the worst approval rating ever? let's do the math.

host: let me ask you. caller: what, democrat? what do you have to say, democrat lady? give me a break. democrats indicting a republican? go ahead with that one. host: we will go onto michael. welcome to the conversation. caller: i'm going to go for trump again. i guess the main reason why is that ron desantis is already flipping on ukraine. i do not like out side influence.

if you have an idea, you stick to it. i'm not much of a flip-flop or. i'm sorry? host: i was going to ask you about the flip-flopping. how do you think he flip-flopped? >> first he said he was not -- caller: he flip-flopped on ukraine. i do not agree with arming ukraine. i feel like it has cost 70 more lives than it should have. the only person who can bring peace to that place now is trump. you have to have somebody there

who will be diplomatic. ukraine does not -- they need to come to a decent agreement there , otherwise they will continue to use the u.s. to fight their war, which they should be more involved in. host: what policy issue or issues do you prefer? caller: i would say more of his domestic and economic policies. we do not manufacture much anymore in this country, other than weapons. we really have to bring back

many fracturing and jobs. look at most of the companies. everybody fails to realize it because toyota is not an american car company. we have to look at our economic policies here and really bring back american companies. all of these big companies, we have to start introducing our own things in this country, otherwise we will rely on the rest of the world for the next 20 to 40 years. host: how old are you and what do you do for a living? >> i am 40 and an -- and i own a business. host: looking to revamp strategy

amidst signs of political strain. desantis began the year with clear momentum, topping trump and drawing unparalleled focus, eager to see a fresh face at the helm, but there are signs that momentum might be selling. fellow republicans have criticized 10 saying there was a territorial dispute. to some degree, it already appears to be happening in an interview this week. there were questions raised about the former president's character and brushing off one

of the nicknames for him. in ohio, tell us about your candidate. caller: nikki haley. for one, 500 banks have closed since biden took office. desantis, i do not want him because he is one of the highest rated bank failures. host: why not the former president? caller: he is i had supported him in the past but his rhetoric

and so forth is unbecoming of a professional. host: when did you make that decision about the former president? what was the turning point for you? caller: instead of laying his cards out on the table, he is just running around in circles. and his business deals. i do not like biden's business deals either, but they are to be peas in a pod.

host: elvin in ohio. good morning. we are listening. caller: i am a vietnam veteran and i saw -- donald trump rebuilt the military. the democrats started that rumor where he called the veterans suckers but that was a lie. that never happened. i remember before the virus struck. record unemployment. the economy was booming. i have seen no one giving him credit but yes, donald trump did

not take a penny, i believe, of his salary. he donated his salary the entire time he was in the white house. people -- him about the prostitute, but we do not need a choir boy leading this country. we need donald trump. the economy is going downhill because of all the money that we are giving to foreign nations. go ahead. host: who do you caller: --

putting think the former president should choose as a running mate yet -- running mate? caller: nikki haley. mike pence is a nice guy but he is very soft. he is like jimmy carter. jimmy carter was a nice guy but he was soft. nikki haley is 100% american and she is like donald j. trump, who i voted for four and i will vote for again. host: how old are you? caller: i am not old. i am 78 years young. it is not old. it is advanced in age. 78 years advanced in age. host: carmen.

we are listening. it is your choice for 2024? caller: i would vote for donald j. trump. he improved the country in many ways. the economy was booming. right now, the economy has affected many americans. the country is weak right now. our adversaries cs as a weak country and it is scary in many ways. i believe that if he is nominated in 2024, the way the country is going, with the socialists and the book culture, it will affect -- it is

affecting our children. they have attacked the nuclear family and are indoctrinating our children at a very early age. once they attacked the family, which they have already done, the country is doomed. so yes, i will vote for donald, -- donald j. trump. host: what is your view of what happened january 6 and the role that the president played that day? caller: i believe that it was a riot. it was not an insurrection. the people that did damage in a violent way, they broke windows,

the way in the media portrayed in, that goes for local channels nationwide. they are in the pocket of the democratic party and they portrayed this over and over again but those people that maybe broke windows -- those people obviously have to be changed. but that it was an insurrection? absolutely not. i believe that the riots that happened in many states -- that was smiling. there were hundreds of police officers assaulted and federal

bert buildings were burned down. police officers were killed. there was no one killed every six except for one republican pro-trump supporter. host: we understood what you're saying there. a little more from waco, texas. his first campaign rally. we are talking to republicans only in our first hour about who you are thinking should be the nominee for the republican party in this campaign cycle. let's listen to a little bit more from mr. trump, yesterday. mr. trump: it will go down as

the most depraved chapter in all of american history happening before your eyes. but we are going to end up winning. the weaponization of law enforcement is something straight out of the stalin, russian portion -- horror show. this is very seems to have begun the standpoint of us watching in sin i modern day history. you go back to communist china or looking at a third world banana republic. banana republic. that is what we have become. let there be no doubt of the injustices being done to those across our country. we will not stand for it. when this election is over, i will be the president of the united state.

you will be vindicated and proud . the thugs and criminals corrupting our justice system will be defeated, discredited and totally disgraced. that is what is happening. host: predicting that he will return to the white house. we are asking republicans only, who is your candidate? what you say? caller: i voted for chump -- trump twice, but he cannot win. he had so many people turned against him. host: like who?

caller: the independent voter is just not with him anymore. he only won because it was the perfect storm. hillary clinton had some issues. all the things that hurt her and knocked her out of being the best candidate, trunk it's the perfect storm. i voted for him twice. but i am going with nikki haley. trunk can only hold it one more term. he is too old. he has a ton of energy, but he is still too old. i would rather have somebody younger like desantis. he pushes back when they pushed him. i would like nikki haley, anybody but trump because he cannot win.

host: so you say nikki haley and desantis is the ticket that you want to see? caller: i would vote for anybody over trump. no democrat, but i would vote for desantis or nikki haley. but trump cannot win. you have to win those and trump cannot win. you take the midterms and all that. he lost them. he is done. stick a fork in him.

i appreciate everything he has done for our country, but he needs to walk off and be done. host: how old are you? caller: i have always been a conservative republican. a lot of stuff going on. i never thought i would see a time in our country when everybody was talking about gender and children versus trying to get them a good education and prepare them for adult life. i never thought i would see a time like this, but it seems like all you hear about is gender and all of that. it is just very controversial. host: what do you do for a

living? caller: i am an auto salesman. host: he wants to see desantis and nikki haley. a little more from piers morgan. taking extreme positions. >> a lot more focus on policies. one thing that they are criticizing about. one is to win the republican nomination and to appeal to the trump megan needs. some of your critics say that you are trying to pander too much to the right. examples being the still going

through for abortion in florida, making it one of the top places in america. going through the ability to carry a gun in a concealed way without a permit. people are saying you're pushing this. i have learned that it is an american issue in that debate should be had by americans, but in terms of where you position yourself, are you worried that if you take such a hard line position on things like abortion that it makes it more difficult for you to win a national election, should you choose to run? ? first years as governor, a lot

of people have the same criticism that i was only doing things for the right. we were doing things across the board and i ended up winning a victory. that will be the same formula that we would take and forget about me. i think anybody should take a formula like that nationally. you cannot win with just republicans. you need to convince some of these democrats because there are people who are democrats because that is what their family was. they want their streets safe and they want quality education. host: ron desantis sitting down with piers morgan for an interview. he considers a bid for president. who is your candidate? good morning.

caller: good morning. i was a public school teacher back in wisconsin, in the 1970's. i cannot hear you. host: we are listening. caller: i was still voting democrat in the 1970's. my father was a union carpenter and i was a democrat and i even voted for jimmy carter. when i moved to colorado, i became a reagan republican. i'm watching your -- i did not like donald trump from his tv show, where it was you were fired and all that, but something switched in me when i

started hearing him campaigning. it is like he understood what it would do to keep the american free enterprise system the middle-class alive. and everything has gone sideways from that, but when he was in, and what i could hear from trying to find the truth -- because the news media, i cannot leave the news media. but my husband and i were 40 years self employed business people here in colorado. what was going on in the country politically and in my on state, it did not matter whether it was republican or democrat. if politically they only wanted to get in office, but not help the middle class businessman be able to hire and train, and

involve other people, that is where we went crazy. what i liked with trump is he was so concerned about the farmers and the ranchers and the water. he was encouraging black people that had been through the criminal system. the news media has gone so hard trying to make him look like he is anti-black or anti-jewish or anti-whatever. it is not true. host: elaine, olympia, washington state. who is your candidate? caller: i will go with trump but i am not sure. what i would prefer is a trump- desantis ticket.

the reason i choose is because he went to wharton school and he is an economist. that is what he was trained in. it came out when he was president. his business leadership skills took care of of the lot of issues that were going on when he went into office, but they were not issues when he left. he really improved the country as far as i am concerned a lot, but right now, our country is in dire straits on so many different levels. he is the only person who has the overall understanding that he can get us out of this mess. desantis, i think he would be

an active vp. after trump is gone, he could walk into the office. he has gotten the nature, drive and intelligent to do it. host: some of our viewers and text messages on social media. here is omar in ellicott city, maryland saying he wants vivek ramaswamy for president, some youngblood. steve says i am a ron desantis backer. i like the way he governs florida. people are flocking there for a reason. our early primary in south carolina the interesting because of nikki haley and possibly tim scott. we cannot count on our primary to represent the mood of the country this is from jay -- only trump is strong enough to revive our economy and only trump can

stand up to our adversaries abroad. tim -- i would like to see a candidate who will take the republican party away from the delusional clutches of trump, someone like representative crenshaw. kirk, you are for the former president. why? caller: good morning. i know trump and have followed him for over 40 years. you will never find a more patriotic person. he is a one presenter who was never accepted by the 1% and he is a common man. his business acumen, he was the perfect guy, perfect time and did a great job. he was hated because he went against the deep state and the corruption of our media.

i think in the position we are in now, where we are so close to failing, because of the recent politics and stolen elections and all of the rest, if we do not get trump back in office with pompeo as vp, without that experience and backbone, we will fall. unlike -- i like nikki haley as secretary of state. she has got plenty of those three things. we need that type of experience. we need the world to remember who we are and respect us again. we cannot afford the inexperience of desantis. i like him, but he is not humble. if you remember, i have watched

c-span since 1981. desantis's campaign was about to fail and he was desperate. trump did not even know who he was but threw him a lifeline and saved him and pulled him aboard the ship. right now in florida, we have the obama acolytes in a hotel room unconscious and bleeding, high-end meth. acting like a family man. trump saved florida, he saved desantis and his country. the media hates him, the deep state hates him because he is a truth teller. they do not respect him because they know he means business. dealing with china and russia and ukraine and the rest, there is no other person capable,

willing, and able to take that job. if he could get the delusional, doing -- deranged people to hate on him, -- host: ken -- can i ask about this possible indictment of the former president? caller: anything to keep him from getting back in. that is a failure of men everywhere. men have their feelings. i do not know what this says about him, but it is ridiculous and trivial to try to bring down a president over that nonsense. host: the former president addressed it at his rally in waco, texas yesterday. >> the new weapon being used to

cheat on elections is criminally investigating a candidate, bad publicity and all -- it is the craziest thing. i get bad publicity and my poll numbers go through the roof. explain best. >> [applause] >> explain it to me. i get so much publicity that the case gets the adjudicated in the press and people see it is baldsh -- bullsh**. but it takes place by the department of injustice and their local henchmen throughout the country. they use the local offices like in new york city, atlanta, chicago, los angeles. date make life miserable,

destroyed families and friends, even though they know that these people are innocent. in many cases, they are patriots, not guilty of anything. if you are running for office, but i did not think there would ever go after him, but some congressmen, they would not go after because they are too clean. but let's say they are not that well known, good job and an investigation has turned into one of these many great people. they will lose their race. they do it all the time. today are using investigations not because it is harder for them to stuff the ballot boxes. marjorie is here. they have found at least 5 million instances on tape and the ports do not want to look at it. the district attorney of new

york, under the direction of the department of injustice, was investigating me for something that is not a crime, not a misdemeanor. host: that was the former president addressing his possible indictment coming out of new york. ron desantis also talked about that in his interview last week. here is what he had to say. we will get you that in a minute. let me show you this poll tracking the 2024 republican primary -- desantis support dips in recent weeks. the former president 54% while the florida governor comes in at 26%.

nikki haley at 4%, following that is liz cheney. we dig through the poll and you will find about what rotors are saying about their second choice. that is where gop primary voters could migrate. 46% say their second choice would be ron desantis. mike pence at 17%, nikki haley at 6% and 70% said they do not -- 17% said they do not know yet who their second choice would be. here is the florida governor talking about the possible indictment of former president trump. >> i have seen numbers but no facts yet. i do not know what is going to happen, but i do know that the manhattan district attorney is a soros-funded prosecutor. he, like others, they weaponize

their office to impose a political agenda on society at the expense of the rule of law and public safety. he has downgraded over 50% of felonies to misdemeanors and says he does not want joe time for the vast majority of crimes. what we have seen in manhattan is we have seen the crime rate go up and citizens become less safe. you are talking about this situation. i do not know what goes into paying hush money to a morningstar -- to a porn star. but what i can speak to is if you have a prosecutor ignoring crimes happening every day in his jurisdiction and he chooses to go back many years to try to use something about porn star

hush money payments, that is weaponizing the office. type think that is fundamentally wrong. host: this morning, we are getting republicans only take on the 2024 presidential cycle. who is your candidate at this point? president trump holding a rally yesterday in waco, texas. this morning consol poll shows the hypothetical matchup between the former and current presidents in 2024. that showed donald trump beating him 44% to 41%. ron desantis at 43% to joe biden's 41%. let's hear from adrienne in ohio. who should be the republican nominee? caller: --

host: tell us why. caller: i am hispanic, came to this country as a legal resident. i am 64 years old. i have never in my life been involved in politics. when i heard that trump was running, i told my son, let me ask you this -- does trump need fame? no. does he need money? no. does he need power? no. so why? simply because i believe he loves this country as much as i do. ever since i became a member of the national republican party

locally, for that reason. i like desantis. he has done an awesome job in florida and continues to do so. however, the organization that trump has built, the law of people -- a lot of people say whatever, but he has built an organization unlike anything else. host: ricky on facebook says his candidate is tim scott, senator from south carolina. another viewer on facebook says desantis 100% but will not be met if it is trump. another viewer on facebook says trump 200%. kim from norfolk says i would love to see a candidate who would take the republican party

away from the delusions of the former president. vanessa, baltimore, you are for the former president as well? caller: yes. i just recently came around to this position when he first started talking about it. i was hesitant. i wanted to move forward, but the country is in such a state we need somebody like trump. our foreign policy is my main concern, russia and china are so emboldened. then, of course, our economic policy is just a mess . host: who is your number two? caller: only tom can save us. trump loves this country. it is clear in every one of his speeches. those are the three reasons why. host: who is your number does

cap? -- number 2? caller: i did not have one. i like nikki haley, but not a big desantis fan. i did not watch the whole piers morgan interview, but i do not see those two working well together. i like nikki haley, but we will see we need someone strong like trump. host: bonnie in amarillo, texas. how far is amarillo from waco? caller: oh, darling, we are at the top of texas. they are toward the bottom. how far is it? 350 to dallas. host: sounds like it was too hard to drive to the rally. why is the former president your pick? caller: he is the only one who

can save this country. he did it before and can do it again. as far as all of this about january 6, being only person killed that day was one of our own patriots. trump called for peaceful resistance, not chaos. everybody knows that. you look at stormy daniels and monia trump, let's get -- melania trump, let's get real. why would you settle for that? he would never have left our people in afghanistan, north would he have given millions and millions of dollars away in ammunition, weaponry. i work for the department of energy for 25 years. my husband and i both retired. my husband was a vietnam that -- veteran. we do not burn place in texas. we believe in god, guns and taking care of babies.

as far as the border, o my lord. they keep talking about there is nothing wrong at the border, but get to texas and look at it. it is the biggest mass in the world. our beloved governor abbott is doing everything he can with no help from d.c. they have tried to crucify texas, but they are not going to do it. texas has a different kind of pride. i am one of them. i think that trump is the only person who can save the country. he did it before and can do it again. host: dan, louisville, kentucky. caller: you cut me off last time before i even got on. yeah. the lady from texas just took my fender away. she is right about everything.

trump is number one. i like to see trump and desantis or trump and nikki haley. that would cover 20 years. i am sure i will be gone by then, but it would be good. trump can get stuff done. but he said earlier we need somebody in there for 8 years, but in four years, trump can get a lot done compared to other presidents. host: who should be his running mate? caller: it should be ron desantis or nikki haley, but if ron desantis does not save -- say he is run for president -- if he runs, i would say trump takes nikki haley -- picks nikki

haley. if nikki haley won the second time after trump and then after that, 16 years would be great. it would be nice to go out on a republican. host: in idaho, you say nikki haley is your pick. why? caller: i believe we need younger blood and nikki haley has experience as a governor and has worked on an international basis. i would think she would pick somebody she could work with as vice president that would be good. that is the reason i would go that way. younger blood. host: did you vote for president the last two times? caller: yes.

he has had his day and we need younger blood to move us forward. host: if he went up against president biden, president biden is not young either. so why not have him run against president biden? caller: i believe trump would win if biden runs and biden says he will. that is why we have biden running. we have that scenario playing out, but i believe the polls will change as the beer goes on. host: ok. bernie, louisville, kentucky. caller: nobody on that list is mine pick. -- my pick.

i have two. you have had them on before. they are both in the house of representatives. that would be don bacon and nancy mace. host: why those two? caller: both -- neither are election deniers. they have always said they'd represent everybody. they represent republicans, democrats, libertarians, whoever is in their district. that is who they represent. nancy mace is always in trouble with her own party because of the way she vows anything she says. that shows a lot. i think we need a fresh perspective. we have had too many senators and governors as president. we have not had a prison in the white house -- we have not had a congressperson in the white house. i guess the last would be gerald ford. i like those two. i voted for john kasich in 2016.

he was the last man out. we need a new effective and the cost of representatives could provide that. host: did you vote for in 2020? caller: not trump. host: james in kentucky. caller: i would be for trump. one reason is the in there now, the so-called president, look at what he has done to this country. no pride, border has been overrun. high gas prices, high food prices. the list goes on. what really kills me is would like to have marco rubio as vp.

and then it amazes me how people from liberal cities can call in and say he is doing such. the media is putting him up there. i have been up there a bunch of times. it is all the bow stuff on the news, but they do not put any of the real stuff on tv. host: i am going to get in a few more calls. david schmidt says mike pence has the temperament and presence for the job. our, what do you say? huntsville, alabama. caller: i am not made my mind yet, but anybody but trump.

the first time he ran, the guy is a child with nicknames for everybody pocahontas, sleepy joe. anybody but trump. i do not know if this is the right forum, but i was talking to your screener. when they put up poll numbers, i saw the clip with trump. if somebody can explain to me what good poll numbers are. if they'd poll 100,000 people and get these numbers come what do they mean? host: we will talk about that in our next hour, but polls are

just a snapshot in time. they are a snapshot of that specific period when they are asking people what they think at that moment. obviously, things can change as you get closer to election day. cindy in san carlos, california. caller: good morning. i called in. i would like to see president trump back in. the reason i called is nobody has mentioned mike pompeo as the vice president. i really like mike pompeo. he is number one in his class at west point. i thought he was an excellent secretary of state. actually, i would like to see him back in that spot. i really like mike pompeo, his demeanor. i have watched him on any interviews with george

stephanopoulos. i just feel that he has a nice demeanor. i also like hence and -- like pence and nikki haley. but i just wanted to mention mike pompeo. host: bonnie in lancaster, pennsylvania. who is your pick? caller: my absolute pick is to bring back trump to try to bring us back to where we were when he left. i truly voted for him. i biden would probably -- i thought biden would calm the country and it seemed he reversed everything we were experiencing. the other that i think would be good would be tulsi gabbard. she is antiwar, military, just

left the democratic party and is now an independent. i think she would make a terrific vp. also, mike pompeo. my brother graduated from west point as well. i have two nephews serving today who just graduated from west point. it is frightening. if we do not get trump back in, i am 71 and i do not think we will have much longer. host: we will continue talking about politics in our next hour. we will talk with james antle from the washington examiner and chris lehmann of the nation's magazine and later lindsay gorman, senior fellow at the alliance for securing democracy, discusses xi jinping's visit to moscow and tiktok. we will be right back. ♪

>> c-span's campaign 2024 coverage is your from rosia to the election. watch our coverage of the campaign trail to make of your own mind. campaign 2024 on the c-span network, c-span now, or anytime online at c-span.org. c-span, cure unfiltered view of politics. -- your unfiltered geopolitics. >> this week, the house and senate are in with the house working on energy apology --

policy legislation. the senate works on repealing legislation for the use of force in iraq and will also hold a budget hearing for fiscal year 2024 with testimony from ellie handwrote mayorkas and merrick garland. tuesday, centralanng leaders testify on recent bank failures. on wednesday, howard schultz appears before the senate health committee over complaints that starbucks is preventing stores from unionizing. watch this week on the c-span networks or on c-span now. or head to c-span.org for scheduling information or to stream video live or on-demand anytime. she spent, your unfiltered -- c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> tonight, on q&a, in his book children of the state, jeff

hogg's looks at the u.s., focusing on three and out programs in san francisco, wilmington, delaware and new york. >> when a kid walks into that cell and here's the bolt behind him or her, even if it is only for an afternoon while things get sorted in the courthouse next door, even if it is just for a couple of hours, that sound and that feeling is life altering. >> jeff hawkes and his book children of the state tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's q&a. you can listen on our free app. ♪ >> c-spanshop.org is c-span's

online store for apparel, books, home decor, and accessories. there is something for every c-span fan and every purchase helps support our nonprofit operation. shop now any time c-spanshop.org. >> washington journal continues. host: roundtable discussion on politics and campaign 2024. joining us is james antle, with the washington examiner. we also have chris lehmann, d.c. bureau chief with the nation. thank you both for being here. last night, the former president held his first campaign rally. he talked about polls. a new poll shows him getting a lead over undeclared and declared possible candidates.

last month, he was at 33% tied with the governor of florida. now he is leading over desantis. what do you make of this? guest: a couple of things. trump's and empress reo of culture war --trump is an empressario of culture war victimhood. the base has rallied kind him. it is a familiar litany. we set it during the russia investigation and after january 6. this is by now a familiar message to the republican base. the trump movement is a cult of personality. they are rallying to the center of it. it is not that surprising i think the other thing to note is

the setting of the rally in waco, which was the site of the disastrous federal raid on the cults. that site despite no means accidental. host: james antle, same question. guest: governor desantis is in an unusual position for a challenger. art and his appeal is he is supposed to bottle up what republican voters like about trump while discarding the distractions and personal indebtedness and things they thought got in the way of trump doing the things they wanted him to do, but that makes it difficult as a challenger, because you cannot have the same overt attack on the person you are trying to defeat. you have to show trump a certain degree of deference. trump has been able to behave like a conventional candidate and like trump, which is

anything but a conventional candidate, in terms of the length to which you will go to attack again upon it, but desantis has had to hang back and not found his footing. host: he is being framed by the former president and his heart they had a chance to frame himself. guest: that is the other thing. is this all the declared candidate, he is trying to wage a national campaign with the remnants of his reelection campaign, augmented by some super pac's he does not fully control and in some cases, they not even be affiliated with. that is challenging. i think trump has found that a lot of things that would end anybody else's political career, he has been able to figure out ways to use them to his advantage. it was that when he got into politics is real estate and

reality tv start mantra of there is no such thing as bad publicity would be disastrous. while it has at times hurt him, for the most part, he has been able to parlay that into a great deal of success, at least within the republican party. host: chris lehmann, on the democrats' side, biden considering another run. but most democrats say no thank you. guest: there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding a biden reelection campaign. he is 81 years old. that is a central issue. it is an interesting dynamic. i think the republican party is afraid of its space and the democratic party, speaking of the establishment, does not like his face.

there is a great tension between the base on the democratic side. we have seen the president tacked right on issues like immigration and he vetoed a series of crime reforms in the district of columbia. this already has the democratic base generate -- base jittery about biden being a centrist democrat who is not going to be a strong leader. host: and we have this headline about his vp, other together, biden harris moved toward 2024, but her numbers are not high either. guest: it is true. there has not been a breakout moment for the vice president. she has not really seized any

issue in the traditional way that vice president often have with specific policy concentrations. she has been given some, but they have not been given much traction. her public speaking performances have been erratic. there is not really the sense of much of an organic base behind her. host: can the biden-terrace ticket beat the former president in 2024? guest: there are so many variables. i mentioned the prospect of a pending indictment in new york. there is a grand jury in georgia that will handout a decision at complaint. the ongoing justice department investigation of the former president. there will be a lot of disruption that trump does not

want that can feed off of it. at some point, if he is only typing but the fact that he is under indictment from all these jurisdictions and the daily news cycle is driven by that, we have not seen anything like that in a primary cycle before. host: following up on chris lehmann's point any the point you made earlier, james antle, the president has seen his numbers go up while -- the former president has seen his numbers go up while there is all this talk of indictment, but with which type of voter is he seeing numbers go up? what about independent voters? a caller was saying the former president cannot win with independent voters. guest: that is a dilemma. a lot of these arguments about the weaponization of the justice system against conservative -- the former president may

resonate with base voters but what about with softer republican voters who do not help controversial republican candidates in the midterm elections, even though they voted in large numbers for more conventional republican candidates. that does become a concern. a lot of what could benefit trump in the republican primaries were not set him up to be in the strongest position in the general election and he may not be able to perform the way other candidates would come a running on certain themes in the primaries and talking about something else if they were to win. trump does seem stuck on a certain, set list and that is what that race is going to become the theme of it. does trump player's greatest hits? do the fans respond favorably? or does this material at some point kennel? and that is -- at some point get

old? and that is where desantis has his opening. caller: i have a question. do you like --? host: we are going to move on. malik, independent. caller: i left the democratic party in 2010 over dhaka. i would never vote for donald trump. he has fascist tendencies, authoritarian. he has no form to speak of. the republican party has no platform to speak of. banning books on betsy coleman, jesse owens. they are trying to build some white ethno-state. they have propane propaganda, they pardon january 6 defendants

who have tried to overthrow the country, which is treason. there is something fundamentally wrong with these people. after the civil war, nothing has been invented in the institution of democracy, so they coalesce around donald trump. they are using christianity to build moral high ground to mistreat people. it is a sick dynamic. no candidate is talking about the housing crisis. troop banking reform would eliminate tmi and unnecessary costs. i know the federal government often taxes people out of oblivion, but it is the local government that taxes people as well. people in their 60's of paid for their homes all their lives and now are being taxed out of them. host: james antle, what did he say? as an independent, he left the democratic party but is not

cocky. guest: i am not sure he is a typical swing voter, but, clearly, if desantis's nominee, he will face a similar element that trump does. a number of things desantis has done to bond with republican base voters to show he can deliver on their concerns, particularly cultural concerns, there is going to be some pushback. a part of the things he is done on education, for example, where he has tried to get greater parental control, it is clear that the country framing of that is going to be book banning, not wanting to talk about slavery, not wanting to talk about the black american experience. desantis is going to have to have answers if he is the nominee. in the republican primaries, i think he could continue to make some of the arguments he is already making and receive a receptive audience, but in a general election, he is going to

have to have a new set of arguments. that is going to demonstrate whether he has greater ability to reach behind the republican death beyond the republican base. host: we were talking to republicans only the first hour. several mentioned they want the former president back because of the kind me. what do you think? if the economy is the number one issue, how does president biden fair? guest: interesting question. we are in a moment of nearly full employment, the lowest unemployment rate in 40 years. wages are going not as high as they should be. inflation still something of an issue, but the overall economy

is pretty robust. there is a school of political science that says once you pass a certain threshold of employment, lower inflation, that guarantees a president's reelection. but that does not seem to be the dynamic anymore. it took another reminder about how on both sides of the parties in this -- partisan divide, our politics are changing in ways we have yet to fully process. if barack obama was running on this kind of economic performance in 2012, he would have blown out mitt romney by a far greater margin. it speaks to deeper structural problems in the economy. wages are not rising as fast as they shed. there is still a lot of

apprehension around the suspension of covid support. there this was because shape in 2016, to be sure, there is economic anxiety. host: new york, jeff, independent. caller: desantis, i heard him giving a speech on how great his schools are, but florida schools are not so great. they have countywide schools. a lot of the wealthy people send their kids to private schools and schools are not that great. the teacher turnover rate is unbelievably high. host: so you do not think he can run on education? jim antle? caller: clearly --guest: clearly, he will run on education. glenn youngkin has the ability to win in a blue trending state

using the education issue, but you have to be careful. some of these things vary by local jurisdiction. there is also general parental dissatisfaction with how sling was handled during covid. that tied into a bunch of these other issues, but maybe those other issues were not the primary drivers of that dissatisfaction. if you focus on some of the secondary issues, maybe you are limiting more than we would've seen. guest: what is interesting is that desantis has major issues that proved to be unpopular in the 2022 midterms. a lot republicans on the example of youngkin ran hard on parental

control, critical race theory in schools and they did badly. tudor dixon, republican gubernatorial candidate in michigan, ran almost solely on that and failed. meanwhile, election deniers fared badly in 2022. this was an election everybody was addicting would be a red wave is because of the traditional dynamics of midterm elections. i think the republicans, and this is a big problem going into the general election. you have ron desantis who has staked most of his record on this trip only in -- most of his record on this direct tony and crackdown schools, very top-down. the other thing about both desantis and youngkin is they

ran against incredibly weak democrats. charlie crist has been an also-ran for a long time. desantis in particular has a super majority in florida, so he can run up the score on his legislative agenda without pushback, which is an interesting dynamic because the conventional wisdom is that americans like to elect governors because they can govern in a bipartisan way. desantis has been doing that. he has got a hard-line ideological agenda. it is all on this anti-woke rhetoric that i am skeptical will be a strong platform. host: did the democratic party play in florida in 2020 what will they do in 2024?

guest: the democratic party in florida is one of the worst state organizations. new york being a close second. it is unthinkably centrist. i was describing earlier how our politics are changing. their idea of running against a heart right republican incumbent for the governor was to nominate a former republican to try to say, we will be the nice republicans. we have run the trump experiment over and over, when you give voters the choice between a hard-line, red meat trump figure and a john kasich or charlie crist, they will go for the real thing every time. the democrats need to run confidently against -- the

caller earlier was saying the republican party does support sedition. january 6 was a coup attempt. democrats need to get out in front of that message. host: tyler, georgia, republican. caller: i would like to point out that the democratic caller wants to weigh on crisis, schools, abortions, whatever. the president is not responsible for making these changes. we have parties that handle crises. from that, why don't they get it right when they call in and get

their stuff straight to what they are going to say? it is not appreciated here that the president should handle this crisis that he is not handling right. all i had to say. host: jim antle? guest: the quarterback gets all the glory when the team is winning and blame when the team is losing. it may not be there, but that is the way it is. also true with the president. it is going to be true with the economy, but it is an interesting dynamic in that coveted only -- covid only marginally changed the results of the 2020 election. it was not a huge impact, did not affect the outcome. 40 year inflation had a more muted effect on the midterms than expected.

my impression would be given that president biden's numbers on the economy are low, if he is unable to stick the soft landing with regard to inflation, that would probably mean he cannot get reelected, but i am not as confident about that as i would have been 15 years ago. other things drive elections that. -- now. host: donna, ohio, independent. caller: i am a true independent. the last time i voted for a democrat and a republican in our state election. i like nikki haley. now that i know more about desantis, in my opinion, probably most independents, january 6 did it in for me on trump, although i was never in

favor of how he calls people names. i that is very immature for the are. my vote goes to nikki haley. host: chris lehmann, initiate formidable contender? guest: not according to the polls. polls are just snapshots and conditions can change, but it is interesting. nikki haley would be, on paper, a great republican candidate. she is a former governor. she does have a great resume, great personal story for a party that at times has struggled to get the support of women and nonwhite voters, there is a sound basis for appeal, but she is also a conventional republican. we keep saying this. the base does not want that.

we saw her at the conference last month. she was trying to float some trump-style rhetoric. this is the other problem. it is a problem desantis will face, too. only trump can be trump. we saw in 2016 efforts at the end of the primaries where marco rubio was making terrible jokes. it does not land. this is a problem for anyone host: jim antle? guest: if you were going to design a candidate in the lab, nikki haley would be the candidate, but that does not seem to resonate this does look like a trump-desantis race. it would take something really large to alter the dynamics, for anybody else to be in a position to win the nomination.

certainly when you have something might be indicted and someday who might not run, there are clearly a couple of obvious things that could alter the shape of the race, but where these also-rans become dangerous to trump and to desantis's they may protest arguments that might be more effectively used for other candidates down the line. the dynamic that could affect desantis's you have trump saying you that this guy is an imitator of me. do not vote for him. vote for me, the real thing. other candidates will say is just an imitator of trump, why vote for him if you want to move beyond trump? how does desantis thread the needle? host: and what about mike pence? guest: he has a version of the trump problem. even though he has that elections are about the future, not the past, it will be difficult for him to run a

forward-looking campaign. it will all be about relitigating train 20, january 6 , his decision to behave as a normal vice president under those circumstances and trump attacking him for that. i think what mike pence is going to try to do is run a traditional, evangelical campaign, not directly attack trump, but draw a contrast with him in terms of how to behave under certain moral standards, but pence's role may be helpful to desantis in that it could create a trump-pence field. host: daniel, new york. what is your question? caller: i have about six. host: choose two. caller: i want to respond to

comments on the economy. it is important to know the facts inflation was .1% may have 2020 -- may of 2020. by may of 2021, it had gone up by a factor of 50. what people do not know because it is not reported, it is censored, is since july, inflation was 0.0% in july. since then, we have averaged 2.7% in the last seven months. i keep the records. it is not recorded on tv. we are averaging 2.7%. i go to the store. i see peppers down $.80. host: we understand the point of inflation. caller: ok, the second point i want to make, we have added over

10 million american small businesses. the third point i want to make. the and employment rate is 3.6%. we have added over 12 million jobs in two years. we have been averaging over 400,000 new jobs. host: what is your larger point about the economy? caller: we have an incredible economy. host: does that mean president biden should be reelected? you are a republican. caller: i look at it and you ask me, republican? i'm am looking at chris sununu and asa hutchinson who get no coverage. they get no coverage. host: can they beat the current president with the economic numbers you just touted? caller: the numbers are not reported.

they are not. it does not matter. fox -- host: chris lehmann? guest: it goes to what he was saying earlier. the economy is performing historically really strongly. again, in the old model of presidential elections, it would be like game over. i agree in part. the reporting on the economy has not been good. it has not been historically informed. the release of jobs reports month-to-month. in all of these debates, historical awareness is crucial, and accurate reporting, as the caller was saying. it is true inflation is nowhere near the point it was earlier.

the question really is, does it matter? one would like to think it did because this is a crucial issue that affects us all. as i was saying earlier, we have a republican field with culture war issues. jim mentioned mike pence running as an evangelical candidate. i think one thing important to note is trump is also running as an evangelical candidate. he does not have those personal religious observance records that make pence does but he has been leading -- leaning into qanon themes which are aligned with the evangelical movement at this moment. as i said earlier, the symbolism of the waco rally is a direct message to the hardline evangelical base. and trump is already trying to

outmaneuver desantis on education. his first major policy announcement was this laundry list of anti-woke federal education initiatives he was going to undertake. republicans will be running hard on these culture issues, in part because the economy is so strong. host: barry in dayton, ohio, democratic caller. caller: good morning to your distinguished guests. why does america keep debating trump and desantis? desantis is a younger trump. america has been doing this forever and ever. they need to get rid of all the old people in congress and put some young in there. because you have been divided, it will stay divided just like overseas. america eight never going to get it together, but they need to get it together.

host: a couple of topics. the polls? guest: most of the other candidates did not break 10% on any consistent basis. the hope of some of these candidates would be that if for whatever reason desantis will not run, if by some stroke of luck he does not, that they would inherit some base of support i simply not being trump. perhaps that is true, but that might be optimistic. in terms of age, there are a lot of people beginning to make the generational change argument. that is a subtle republican argument against trump and also wanting to capitalize on the advantage of running against an octogenarian incumbent which is more difficult to do if you are

doing with the candidate almost the same age. if you have a candidate substantially younger, perhaps that helps. in the democratic party, there is a big push for a generation change in leadership. it started in the house. you have a dynamic of a very party in terms of voters an appeal to younger voters led by a gerund talker see -- ger ontacracy. at the presidential level, there does not seem to be any pushback. there is no obvious alternative. marianne williamson is probably not that. host: you are agreeing. guest: he is right. the democratic party is a gerontacracy. there has been movement on the house side. it is notable the activist young base of the democratic party thronged to bernie sanders who

is now also 80. it is a real problem. republicans have been ruthless about getting rid of old leaders and bringing on, bringing in youngblood into positions of influence. the democratic party would greatly benefit from emulating that. host: has president biden done enough to get support from progressives? guest: as i mentioned earlier, i think there is anxiety already around these issues like he is test driving a version of family detention in immigration policy. he has reversed these d.c. reforms. those are conventional. biden is already tacking towards

a general election strategy. he has done a lot. he has done much more than i would have thought possible given the dynamics in congress. he has been, as he promised, a strongly prolabor president which counts for a lot, i think. he was famously moved to run in the aftermath of charlottesville. he has signaled in his state of the he wants to do more on police reform. it is not enough. i think right now, the progressive wing of the democratic party has been apprehensive. host: we are going to talk with democrats only coming up on "washington journal" at 8:45 eastern time. we talked with republicans only in our first hour this morning. democrats only, is it president

biden or someone else in 2024? rate in tennessee, republican, let's hear from you next. caller: yes, the first caller you had on that was talking about people like him saying they were going to do some white thing. this is exactly what the democratic party is, they are trying to divide this country. this guy just exposes them. he is taking the bait. we are all in this together. there ain't nobody dividing us. people like that are not a help. they are part of the problem. host: from monroe, louisiana, independent. caller: make me look better than this question. i'm really struggling with this

one. i'm asking about the weaponization of cancel culture. i have been thinking about this the last few weeks. i think if i am inside the liberal, socialist mind, they really think trump or the people do not view themselves as nazis. in the 1930's, if you could have stopped hitler, wouldn't you have done it? i think the left, help me here, i think they think white male christian heterosexuals have been on top so long that life was better when christianity was the top religion and heterosexuality was the best sexuality. the final thing is i think they realize trumpians, and especially evangelicals, have

one potent view of reality versus everyone down the line a-z. these people do not mean to be dangerous, but they really are. that is why we have to weaponize and cancel them. can you help me with that? host: did you follow him? guest: a little bit. first of all, i am a skeptic about the existence of cancel culture. i think it is like the prescriptive ideology of wokeness is a caricature. what happens a lot in politics is the other side gets caricatured. i certainly would acknowledge my comments on the left what time -- will i time caricature. i don't think it is helpful. i mentioned earlier the need to think historically. i am old, so jim probably does

not have my advantage. in the 1990's, there was political correctness structurally identical to wokeness and cancel culture we are seeing now that focused on universities and the idea there was a creationist, leninist mindset in the country. i like to say let's grant all the premises of this critique historically in the early 1990's that leninist's had taken over the universities, etc. what happened in the wake of this furor? most of the college students became business majors. there is a way we rhetorically over inflate these issues.

it is true of the school panics going back to the john birch society that ran a campaign against education in the 1970's. in florida, they had a fear about teachers. ronald reagan mowed it down because he thought it was wrong. i think it is important to understand this course -- this course -- we focus on these pace toward cultural enemies to hammer away at so we cannot sit down and say let's rebuild a full employment economy, let's bring back american manufacturing. let's figure out a way to make globalization less grossly unequal. host: your take? guest: a couple of things. number one, as much as there is

disagreement on a variety of issues that animate the culture war, i think the number one disagreement people have is, who is the aggressor in the culture war? each side believes the other side is the aggressor and theirs is a defensive posture. i think there's a big distinction between the cancel culture controversies of today and the political correctness discussions of the 1990's. in the 1990's, it was really an academic, college, phenomenon. while they are business majors, they can repeat the party line for four years, go be an investment banker, and never think of any of this again. rightly or wrongly, normal people outside college now feel like they have to genuflect in front of these and be responsive to these cultural pressures in the h.r. departments of their

companies are going to hold them to these certain standards. whether that is true or not, that certainly changes the debate. if you are a grandmother posting on facebook and your posts are getting taken down for whatever reason, that is sort of different from i have this one course i have to take any professor does not like my political views but if i just say the right thing i can pass the class and move on with my life. guest: can i push back a little on that? the 1990's, i mentioned the campus controversies. there were also a bevy of comedians in the 1990's, just like now, saying we cannot say things that are politically incorrect. it is all true. there was also a great deal of -- ed nice had anti-pornography

distance from the right. i'm making the broader point that the substance of these substances often is, how can i put it? a little off the topic of how institutions actually operate. the reason h.r. departments have these media initiatives which i agree often have the less are badly implemented, but it is all an exercise in pushing liability onto employees and not making management accountable for discrimination. in my mind, that is an economic issue ultimately. we do not think of it that way. we prefer to think somehow h.r. departments across the country simultaneously moved in lockstep taking orders.

it is just not true. guest: there is an element of it that is a corporate shakedown. you do have people riding on these progressive cultural themes that will be paid big money to lecture. h.r. departments are sort of lawsuit avoidance departments internally within a company. anything you can do to shield management from any kind of liability you are definitely going to do. there definitely is a case people feel aggrieved in certain ways they did not in the 1990's. host: chris lehmann and james antle, we think you both for the conversation. we are going to take a quick break. when we come back, democrats only this morning, is it president biden or someone else in 2024? later this morning,

wednesday gorman discusses the chinese president's state visit to moscow last week as well as the ceo of tiktok's testimony on capitol hill. we will be right back. >> tonight, in his book, the best-selling author and journalist looks at the workings of the juvenile justice system in the united states focusing on three programs in san francisco, delaware, and new york city. >> when a kid walks into that cell in shackles, even if it is

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directory now available. it is your access to the federal government with bio and contact information for every house and senate member and important information on committees, the president's cabinet, federal agencies, and state governors. scan the code at the right to order your copy today. every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are back with democrats only for the next 45 minutes. we want to know, president biden or would you like to see someone else run in 2024? the associated press with a headline related to the question. most democrats say no thank you according to their polls. they say a majority of democrats now think one term is plenty for president biden despite his insistence he plans to seek reelection in 2024.

that is according to a no call the--new poll for the associated press that shows just 37% of democrats want him to seek a second term, down from 52% in the week before last year's midterm elections. while biden has trumpeted legislative victories and ability to govern, the polls suggest relatively few u.s. adults give him high marks. it just many believe the eight-year-old's -- eight-year-old's age is a liability in the world's mistrustful job would be better suited for someone younger. cj, you say you want to see the president run again in 2024. tell us why. caller: if biden's health holds out, i would prefer him to play

out another term. on the backside of this, i think susan rice is a phenomenal force. she is not a politician per se. she is more of a policy woman who came from the u.n. she got a lot of flak pretty benghazi stuff just because she was available for the sunday shows. she did not have anything to do with benghazi. she just tried to explain it. host: are you suggesting it is not the biden-harris ticket, that he should change up his running mate? caller: in a perfect world, i would like to see clarence thomas retire in the next two years, maybe have kamala harris

go to the supreme court and have susan rice who i think is a more dynamic i think she is a real force. she is bright. she is from a ridiculously achieving family. i think the election is going to turn on women's votes. i don't think it is ever part of the discussion how bad trump overplayed his hand by forcing amy coney barrett onto the supreme court which is now going to take 50% of our country's population out of owning their own bodies. i think that is going to come back and haunt the republicans

so badly. if i could just finish, if there is one thing every family is on their mind, every 25-year-old to 50-year-old family, it is when and if to have a child. host: there are others waiting. mark is in fort lauderdale. you say president biden run again in 2024? caller: yeah, i'm going to say biden basically for lack of anyone else i think is strong enough, seasoned enough, and ready enough to do it. also, i am against changing away from miss harris as vice president because you just cannot do that. maybe she has not made a big impression but she has not done anything to cost her the job. i did listen to your thing

during the republicans only paid another reason i think biden should be nominated and win the presidency in 2024, you could go through a list of these accomplishments. i could do that now. host: give me three. caller: ok. how about the bipartisan infra structure package? the multitrillion dollar covid relief deal that saved us? for democrats, he has the highest number of federal judge appointments in many years. there are many more you could run through. i think he has earned it. he is in the best position of any democrat to win again. this is a time when it is crucial democrats win and come

together and make sure we do not have that criminal get back in. that is my story about biden. host: ok. on twitter, yes, i wish he was younger but he is doing a great job. bill in pennsylvania, what do you say as a democrat? good evening? visit the -- who do you think? caller: i'm going to stick with joe biden. i think he's doing a good job, the best he can. i like what he did on medicare medication for the insulin and putting a cap on medicare for seniors. i think he's doing a great job. he has a great personality, very affable, good with labor. i am a labor supporter.

i think he is doing pretty good. i think donald trump was a disaster and continues to be a disaster. i think him sitting on his behind for 187 minutes while the police were getting their heads beat in and he did nothing says it all. host: do you think it should be the biden-harris ticket again in 2024? caller: oh, yeah, i am comfortable with that. host: linda in minnesota, good morning. caller: good morning, greta. i do like joe biden a lot. with the polls the way they are, he may not have the numbers now, but of course we are all going to back him if that comes down to it. host: why do you say that? explain that more, we will all back him if it comes down to it, why do you say that? caller: we are looking in a trump-biden resurrection. we came out eight million strong last time and we will come out

bigger this time because trump is not an option. really, what i'm calling about is my biggest topic is the divisiveness in this country. it is not the economy. it is not the border. it is not education. it is the biggest. host: let me type back to the president. what has he done to unite the country? caller: he has not. that is why i say we need something different read like i told the screener, i am ready for a change in this country. the only way to do it is with a unity ticket. there is not one person on the democrat's side and not trump on the other that can unite this country. we have to think outside the box . let's pull in a unity ticket from each side and try to work together. i love susan rice and put adam kinzinger in there and let's see if we can make a change in this country. the way we are going, it is not going to work. host: you think susan rice,

despite how she was portrayed during the investigation into the nazi -- into benghazi? is there somebody else? caller: i would say amy klobuchar and auburn -- adam kinzinger. anybody in the middle. let's try to find summary from each side in the middle, somebody in the center. let's put it together and see if we can move forward. nobody is a savior. neither joe nor trump is going to fix the unity in this country. i look at a confederate flag right now in my neighbor's yard. it makes me ill every day. we need to move forward. host: ohio, dennis, you think tim ryan should run for president in 2024? caller: yes, i do. i do not think the democratic party did tim ryan any good in the last election. they pretty much hung him out to

dry. host: in the senate race? caller: yes. vance was beatable and yet we let the dumbest republican win out in that election. the one coming up, brown is probably going to run against matt dolan. matt dolan has more money than god. i'm sure he will find a way to get himself elected. host: let's stick with presence in politics. why tim ryan for president? caller: he is a guy in the middle that could find the middle and knows how the legislature works. i think he would be a fine choice. and he is young. we do not need octogenarians anymore. host: how do you go from losing that senate race to winning a presidential election?

caller: i am not sure about that. this is a guy that keeps popping into my head as one guy that could win in the midwest. host: got it. virginia in orlando, florida. caller: hello, greta. i have to say this this morning. i have a problem with people saying joe biden is too old to be running for president. the reason why is this man is full of wisdom. he has worked in congress for over 40 years. when you look at it, when queen elizabeth was living, she was 90-something years old and still running the country. i want to add this. we should not be talking about people's age. how would you like it for somebody to tell you that your

grandfather or grandmother should not do something because of their age? this man is doing a great job. he has lowered everyday expenses. joe biden has more people working then in american history at this point. he is making more things in america. we are getting manufacturing jobs back. he has rescued our economy and he changed the course of the pandemic. he is rebuilding our infrastructure. if they would stop talking about how old he is and embrace him and support him, things would even get better. host: ok, virginia. dave in maryland, what do you say? is it the current president in 2024 or someone else? caller: like joe biden -- i like joe biden.

i think he has done a good job bringing us back from the disastrous prior years from the trump administration with covid in the economy. i think he has the wisdom, knowledge, and know-how to run the country. he has to surround himself with good people. i would like to see kamala harris, the vice president, step up a bit. she is kind of been in the back shadows lately. host: what do you think she needs to step up and do? caller: i think she needs to be a little bit more at the forefront. it seems like sometimes she is an afterthought. i do not. the administration has to put her in a position to be able to succeed because she is an intelligent lady.

it just seems she is in the background sometimes. i would like to see her come out the rest of his presidency and be stronger. i do not worry about the gait of joe biden. everybody has some type of physical ailment, or a lot of people do. i don't look at that. i look at who he surrounds himself with, his knowledge, and what he has done so far bringing the economy, getting us out of covid, the united front we have against ukraine, things like that. and just being an empathetic, good man people can kind of relate to. host: all right, dave in maryland. here is greg.

i would vote for biden again. however, i believe v.p. harris is unelectable. my choice would be hakeem jeffries. here is hakeem jeffries, the democratic leader in the house, the minority leader. here he is asking about former president trump when he predicted death and destruction if he is charged in the stormy daniels probe. [video clip] >> i think the former president's writer is reprehensible and irresponsible. it was dangerous and if he keeps it up, he is going to get someone killed. we've already seen the consequences of incitement from the former president. he is principally responsible for inciting the violent insurrection that happened on january 6.

but clearly, he has not learned his lesson. it is also very unfortunate the extreme agora republicans in the house continue to back president trump and his violence in his disgusting rhetoric. host: the democratic leader in the house hakeem jeffries talking about what former president trump had to say in his social posting friday about the d.a. in new york and a possible indictment coming down. greg in cleveland saying it should be hakeem jeffries on the ticket with president biden in 2024. we are talking with democrats only this morning. is it president biden you would pick to run in 2024 or someone else? we are showing you the associated press recent poll that shows the majority of democrats say they think it

should be someone else that runs in 2024. tony in north carolina, you say the current president. caller: good morning, greta. i think joe biden has earned another term. he has done a good job. he led us out of the pandemic. he got an important infrastructure through with bipartisan support. on the foreign policy front, he has managed the ukraine crisis incredibly well. he has united nato. we need to put up a solid front against putin. i cannot believe what the republican party has turned into in the past five or six years. they are totally unacceptable. people have talked about kamala harris being an issue since joe biden is an advanced age. i know if my wishes come true, i

would like to see kamala harris become attorney general replacing merrick garland and possibly gretchen whitmer on the ticket. i don't see how that would be possible but i think that would be a great ticket. host: you are worried republicans will run a campaign where they are looking at the current president's age, talking about his age, and saying things like you are voting for kamala harris because of his age. something could happen and if president biden is no longer present in 24, it is kamala harris. you are worried about that? caller: i am worried about that. i think that is an angle they will try to exploit. the republicans are completely unacceptable. trump again, really? even if he is not in jail, come on! host: the associated press poll found only 23% of u.s. adults

say they have a great deal of confidence invite them to effectively manage the white house. that is down from 28% a year ago and remains significantly lower than 44% two years ago. just 21% have a lot of confidence in biden's ability to handle a crisis, down slightly from 26% last march. we are talking with democrats only for the next 20 minutes. alexander in new jersey, you say president biden should run again. caller: good morning, greta. i don't want to relitigate what other people are saying. if you look at his legislative track record in this divisive era, but he has done is nothing short of incredible. his foreign-policy has probably been the best since bush senior. he managed the crises. he has done that well outside of afghanistan.

you look at how he has been able to bridge the divide. i am a young voter. if you don't have someone who can transcend a political divide like clinton or obama, someone like biden who can bring people together is commendable. we continue to doubt him. at this point, you look at his success. i have nothing but respect for what he has done. i have questions about vice president harris. i think her record in the senate was poor. she missed 30% of her votes. she does not know how to manage an office, clearly. but at the same time, it is a given she will continue to be the vice president of candidate. i think we just need to support them. i am impressed with what biden has done so far. host: alexander, how old are you? caller: i am 26. host: this is the share of voters who said they would vote for the following if the

election were held today. 44% for joe biden. 41% for the republican candidate. 43% if it is ron desantis said they would joke for -- vote for joe biden. 41% for the republican candidate. what do you make of that? is there any other democrat you think could be this competitive? caller: i think the democrats that could be competitive will not get through the primary. you have a pete buttigieg or gretchen whitmer, you have some good governors, but they are not going to run against president biden. they are also not -- they are going to bring similar shortcomings. i think the biden criticism is one of two things. one is his age and the other is his communication style.

we have seen with bush junior interim communication style is not everything. i think people appreciate biden speaks in a humble, straightforward manner. on the age conversation, that is a criticism. i think he can overcome it. during the campaign, it is going to be more testing. my primary concern is in 2020 he did not have to campaign the way he will have to now. i think his team has shown they are smart enough to adjust for him to rally the base and bridge the divide was independents. this election comes down to a few states and counties. in those places, president biden has proven he can win over voters. host: kevin in texas, you say president biden should run again as well? caller: thank you for taking my call. we need a steady hand at the wheel right now.

everything is crazy right now. i think president biden knows what is going on. think he can get us through this. host: ok. howard and winston-salem, north carolina, your turn. caller: top of good morning to america. biden did a lot for america in his reign at this moment, especially for veterans, the burn pits, how the republicans did not even want to vote for the veterans who need him. come on, veterans. we have republican veterans right now saying they will forget about the burn pits and you x police officers say something about biden but they forget when trump let the police

get the beat down. biden and harris is the best ticket america has to get us back on track. we still have division. there has always been division in america. trump exposed it more and it started peeking out from under the rocks now. joe biden and harris, we are going to put them right back into office regardless of what they say or who they bring up against biden and harris, they are going to lose because america knows they were not better. host: jeff in pennsylvania. caller: good morning, everybody. you are the smartest and prettiest anchor they have there. i would suggest to the democrats they pick a shapiro-gretchen whitmer ticket. there are more registered

democrats than republicans. republicans will probably never win the popular vote again. but the map is tilted towards republicans because the democrats cannot win the flyover zones. it all depends on the swing states. if they pick shapiro and whitmer, they win pennsylvania and michigan and it is over. that is really all i have got to say. host: what are you concerned about with president biden? why couldn't he appeal to voters in pennsylvania and michigan? caller: well, because of the way it was set up,, they can challenge those. we are going to go through the same thing we went through in 2020, just like in arizona. it will just be another mess. i don't think they could challenge. witmer was reelected. shapiro in pennsylvania. i don't think the challenges

hold water as much as they do if those people win, somebody like that. host: got it. adrian in pittsburgh, good morning. is it president biden or someone else in 2024? we lost the call. we will go to nancy in pennsylvania. good morning. caller: hello and good morning. i am glad i got in. i just wanted to say i have always been a democrat. of course, biden has done a pretty good job. i cannot say anything about that. for either candidate, biden or trump and what they are saying as far as harris being vice president also, i would not vote for either of them because if anything were to happen with president biden. i think trump and biden are in the same age category. i would not want harris to be

our president. host: why not? caller: well, i remember way back when he put her in charge of the border. there has not been much about her effective of what she has helped in our country that i have seen. she is sort of hidden. president biden has some extra burdens as far as i am concerned because of her lack of getting the job stung. -- jobs done. she has been in the background. i would not want her to be president because i do not think she has the capacity to do so. host: we are talking with democrats only. is it president biden or another candidate that should run in 2024? from the associated press article on your screen and the poll when they asked about working with congressional

republicans in managing government spending, roughly half of u.s. adults say they have hardly any confidence in president biden. only one in 10 say they have high confidence. for republican voters are unwilling to give biden the benefit of the doubt, hurting his rating. john rodriguez backed former president trump and assumes biden is merely doing the bidding of his aides. key obstacle for biden. he backed the president in 2020 only to summarize his feelings about biden's time in office as "meh." he said i don't know who will be on the ballot but i hope it would be better cruz -- someone -- better from his party. who should run in 2024 for the democrats? caller: good morning.

i think andy beshear, the governor of kentucky. he said he is not going to run. he would be the perfect candidate to run. host: why? caller: he has a sixth 1% approval rating in a conservative state -- 61% approval rating in a conservative state. he is young, about 45. he looks like a president. he would get a lot of the independent and a few of the conservative votes. the only problem is no one knows who he is. he says he is not going to run. that is the only guy i can see that i would vote for. i will not vote for biden again. biden is a corporate hat. he always has been a corporate hat. he could give the railroad workers seven days leave at the stroke of a pen. the build back better bill, he has not done it. he has not done anything he said

in 2020. he has not raised the minimum wage, none of that. i can't believe people keep calling about the things he has done. how about the things he has not done? host: what if it is president biden versus former president trump, who are you voting for? caller: i would not vote for any of them. none. i like andy beshear. thank you. host: joe in florida, undecided, why is that? caller: undecided because i am undecided. there's a couple of things i would not do. i would not vote for donald trump's under any circumstances. someone said he went to wharton and is smart. his father bought his way into wharton. del sol claims he was -- he also claimed he was magnum cum laude. he was not. he had a c average.

the only people who will vote for donald trump are from the far right, be it congress or voters. they are begging for moderation. well, why are they far right? i do not understand it. to vote, i would say probably john kasich. i strongly believe it is time for a woman to be president. this manpower thing has gone overboard. it is in a fast lane ready for a collision. host: who are the female democratic candidates you would like to see? caller: i would love to see liz cheney. i think she's probably the most honest and most moderate of them all. i john kasich would do a good job. i don't think he has the personality. host: are you a democrat? caller: i am an independent. if i was a democrat, it

would be liz cheney who is now an independent. i would probably go her route. i don't see any democrat. if it was between biden and trump, there is not a remote chance i would vote for donald trump. i do not understand the people who are backing him. it is as far right as far right could be. everyone is looking for moderation. it is crazy. host: but hear from nancy -- let's hear from nancy in wisconsin, democratic caller, who do you think should run in 2024? caller: good morning. cory booker, great new jersey senator for over a decade. he speaks truth from the heart. the other one to go with him would be john meacham. great presidential biographer. as they say, history repeats itself. as the great historian he is, it would help. he also speaks truth, fact, from

the heart. both are tested positive communicators. i believe both are peacekeepers. they are both 53. we need some young blood. host: is it just his age? is that why you think the president should not run again? caller: no, i just think we need younger blood in. i love biden and he has done great things, but i think we need to go another direction. host: if it is president biden versus the former president, you will still vote for president biden? caller: absolutely. host: ok. the associated press notes president biden is already the oldest president in u.s. history. he would be 86 if he served a full eight years as president. we will leave the conversation there. we wiltake a break. when we come back, joining us is lindsay gorman, a senior fellow at the alliance for securing democracy. we will talk about china and the

ceo of tiktok's testimony on capitol hill. >> ♪ >> 100 years ago, these names were in american newspapers on many days. jeff smith, burton wheeler, and gavin means. today, those names can be downed in a new book, "crooked." nason masters is the author. in his first book, he has hosted a television series known as "lost l.a." he works at the university of southern california library in los angeles. >> nathan masters on this

episode of booknotes+. >> c-span now app a free mobile app live and on-demand. keep up with the biggest events with livestreams of hearings from the u.s. congress, white house events, campaigns, and more from the world of politics, all at your fingertips. you can stay current with the latest episodes of "washington journal" and find scheduling information, plus a variety of compelling podcasts. c-span now app is available in the apple store and google play. download for free today. c-span now, your front roweat to washington anytime, anywhere. >> listening to programs on c-span through c-span radio just

got easier. tell your smart speaker, "play c-span radio" and listen to "washington journal" daily at 7:00 eastern, important hearings, and other public affairs events. catch "washington today" for a fast-paced report on the stories of the day. listen to c-span radio anytime. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: lindsay gorman is with us this morning. she is with the alliance for securing democracy, a senior fellow focusing on emerging technologies. this morning, we are talking about china and national security threats. we saw the ceo of tiktok, five hours of testimony before lawmakers on capitol hill this past week. what are the national security issues with this tiktok app? guest: thanks so much for having

me on the show today. what a grueling hearing. i think we were wondering just how long lawmakers would question the tiktok ceo. i think everyone was surprised to see it go on for such a long time throughout the entire day in his first public appearance before congress arguing tiktok's case to retain its ability to operate as usual in the united states. i think one of the things that was so shocking was how bipartisan and unified congress, who oftentimes cannot agree on a lot, was in its skepticism of the plans tiktok was selling. the national questions around tiktok center around two different concerns and also the relationship between those concerns. the first concern with tiktok

that gets the lion's share of attention in these kinds of conversations is the role tiktok has played in collecting data from u.s. users and potentially sharing that data with officials and engineers in china and having that data make its way into the hands of the chinese communist party. the chinese government being an authoritarian one-party state engaging in significant actions to steal intellectual property from u.s. companies that would find many advantages from building user profiles on americans, particularly those in sensitive government positions or corporate positions. that is why that data security risk or data privacy risk connected with china is why we have seen so many bands on devices of government employees at the federal and state level, not just in the united states

but among allied countries, in the u.k. recently. that risk that we do not know what manner of data tiktok is collecting in the app and potentially outside of the app if you download tiktok. there is really a concern about the use of tiktok. that is the data security piece of it a lot of lawmakers were asking the tiktok ceo about how to guarantee data is protected. the second concern almost presents a larger threat is the threat tiktok is not just a passive platform. tiktok, like many social media platforms, makes choices about the content users see. algorithms are extremely opaque and powerful and counseling making choices about what viewers see.

the real concern with tiktok's links to china is tiktok could decide to a prank content the chinese party would like americans to seek and downrank content it would consider too sensitive. that sort of control is already enormous for any social media platform with the level of control the algorithm shows two users. the second threat is that level of control would end up in the hands ultimately of the chinese communist party when we know that government has a significant interest in influencing discourse about china around the worldhost: i wr viewers to join into this conversation. many were paying attention to the hearing on capitol hill.

democrats, (202) 748-8000/. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. we heard the tiktok ceo say the parent company is not an agent of china. you heard the ceo say that it is owned -- 60% is owned by an international holding company. what do you make of that argument? guest: there is a clear interest from the tiktok ceo to keep the company as multinational and not behold it to the chinese communist party. that is the chief concern that makes tiktok different from other platforms that congress may also be interested in. that we have to take some of

these statements with the appropriate amount of contact, appropriate grain of salt. that reaction that lawmakers had when you have these representatives really grilling on not just these overarching statements and not staying any agent of china, but trying to understand what are the precise business relationships? we had one mind questioning that was asking the ceo what his conversation looked like, whether he deceived compensation from tiktok's chinese parent company and whether any of the tiktok employees receive compensation. what are the precise corporate relationships? it is one thing to say tiktok is not an agent of china, meaning its primary purpose is not america or china, but some lawmakers were more nuanced than that, wondering that if in a

moment of need, china could call on tiktok to do that type of espionage and political influence. that is where sho chu was not able to satisfy lawmakers' concerns. he is not able to get the on that blanket statement. one of the lawmakers talked about how editor in chief had come up what affiliation he had with the chinese communist party . other lawmakers were asking about who the tiktok ceo himself reports to bank. he also did not address what has been publicly reported, which is that the chinese government itself was looking to take a more active role, including companies like alibaba and growing that influence and cracking down in some ways on chinese tech conference.

that was left out of the conversation. lawmakers also were not satisfied by these top-level statements that tiktok is not an agent of china. it is easy to say, but when you drill down into the details of what those relationships are, that is where i think he present able to come up with satisfactory answers. host: the chinese government foreign minister sent they would oppose any move to sell -- for tiktok to become an american company. they would oppose that. how does that impact his argument? guest: it has a number of impacts, both on his argument and the prospects of tiktok's future in the u.s. and elsewhere, but on your first point, that argument, it seems and some lawmakers pointed this

out, at least china thanks -- thinks, and the people who made those comments, think they have a say in tiktok's future and could prevent tiktok from -- bytedance from selling tiktok u.s. street different company. -- to a different company. that did exposed as degrees of ties and has undermined the tiktok ceo and his argument that it is truly independent and multinational. if the chinese government itself is going to put its weight behind tiktok. that is always -- has always been the double-edged sword with china's involvement with bytedance and tiktok. on the one hand, that leverage and opposition might ultimately be what makes this sale more difficult to execute. on the other hand, the more that china puts its weight behind

tiktok in bytedance and actually prevents the sale, the weaker that argument gets. it is easy to say in washington that lawmakers were unified about tiktok. they were not buying this argument that it is totally separate from china, but in other capitals of democratic countries around the world, these debates are going to be playing out. there is less skepticism by and large in some of our allied countries about the platform. in the statements from china have influence over tiktok's future and may be read in and out of capitals and strengthening the argument that tiktok is the hold times company that ultimately is accountable to the government. host: what new evidence was put forth by these lawmakers that shows china is doing the things that they say they are worried about? guest: the last few months have

not been rate for tiktok -- not great for tiktok. the most damage evidence most recently that lawmakers cited work these accounts of tiktok actually buying on a journalist that was reporting on tiktok and this leak investigation to find out who was giving information to journalists. tiktok ended up accessing information that it probably should not have access in that way on the particular journalist. now we have the department of justice investigating that conduct, because in the u.s. committee free and fair press is something we hold sacrosanct. that was one piece of evidence that certainly has been reported on before but came out is very compelling in the testimony and the comments. another thing i thought was interesting was some of the lawmakers asked pointed

questions of the tiktok ceo to try to tease out what is this relationship? what is the influence of china. one in particular asked the ceo's opinions on whether china was committing human rights atrocities in the region where reports have indicated, including by the u.n., that over a million muslims are in political reeducation camps, likened to concentration camps. when test about -- when asked about whether the ceo agreed with findings of the report, he was not able to set distance between himself and beijing. it is these more subtle questions and more subtle problems that indicates those close ties and the inability for him to speak out coming even

internationally recognized ways that would go against china, really degrades eye-opening concerns that were new for lawmakers and the public. host: lowly, niagara falls, new york, independent. first of her comment for lindsay gorman? -- question or comment for lindsay gorman? caller: my grandson goes on tiktok. what could they find out? he do not have no information that could be stolen or that could be a threat to china or the u.s. that is my comment. guest: it is a great point. for the average american, most of us are not in position of sensitive information that china would necessarily be interested in. that is why we have seen these initial bans focused on

government devices. there is a question of whether businesses might be interested and take the next step on prohibiting tiktok on their work devices from a corporate espionage angle, but the point you raise is a good one, that for the average citizen, these firms can feel distant and as though they do not necessarily apply. there is one piece of this that they not apply so much individually, but holistically it becomes a national security issue. more and more youth users are now getting their news on tiktok. looking back to that concern of all the rhythmic manipulation and propaganda, they could eat getting information that china wants them to see more so than other information and making that their contents election choice. on the data side, as young

voters are increasingly using tiktok for political and voting information, that is a tremendous amount of information when taken in the aggregate on the u.s. electric. china could decide it does not want a particular candidate to win in a particular congressional district or it could decide it might want the results of the u.s. election and it would have an immense amount of information on the likes, dislikes, political proclivities of segments of the u.s. electorate. that is why -- where there could be a concern for the average american that when taken in the aggregate, china could use tiktok to target propaganda to a particular segment of voters in a swing state or with a particular political leaning. host: hawaii, john, democratic caller. caller: thank you for taking my

call. i watched some of that hearing on when they grow this debt. -- this guy. i would believe him myself. he seemed like he was not asking all the questions and everything. i also feel like if the shoe was on the other foot, and we had our app in china, how would they feel? host: let's take that point, lindsay gorman? guest: it is important to remember that many u.s. social media apps are explicitly in b anned in china. to cap itself is banned in china. china is an authoritarian state. there is not an equivalent when it comes to social media platforms and help they are allowed to operate.

i do think it is worth saying that, despite the concerns with tiktok, there should be a high bar when it comes to banning an app out right. that is not generally something democracies do. the question i think washington is grappling with his help dude we maintain that bias toward -- how do maintain that bias toward openness while also looking at national concert he -- national security? host: how do you do that legally? how is this not a violation of the first amendment, banning the app? guest: there will be strong cases and first challenges if the government does go down the path of an outright ban. there is an opportunity for the potential sale of tiktok to a u.s. company or in the

non-authoritarian -- in a nonauthoritarian country. that will depend on tiktok's willingness to sell algorithms and whether china will approve the sale and what authority it has to do so, but there are still other options and president for a forced sale of an app, including when it involves chinese investors. we had a case a couple years ago with the dating out grinder, where chinese investors pulled back for similar reasons, sensitive data and sensitive information on the dating app could ultimately be used for espionage. there is president for a forced sale, but i think we will be in key territory -- the in murky legal territory if they decide to ban the app.

the trump administration tried to there technique -- to ban t iktok a couple of years ago. right now, there is legislation that the administration has endorsed it to give the commerce department more authority to post actually that's potentially restrict tiktok but will be a legal battle at that point. host: the tiktok ceo was making the argument that they are protecting american data with this project. i want to show viewers and the argument he made and get your response. >> how does tiktok, how do you convince the congress of the united states that there can be a clean break? why would this chinese

government sidestep their national law, including article seven, article 10, in terms of user data? >> thank you for the question. as i said, our plan is to move american data and restore it on american soil. >> i understand that, but you are sidestepping, or i have not read anything in terms of tiktok, how you can actually say -- you spoke about a firewall relative to the data. but the chinese government has that data. how you promise that -- how can you promise that that will be protected here? >> i have seen no evidence that the chinese government has

access to that data. >> i find that preposterous. >> i have looked and have seen no evidence of this happening. in order to which everybody here, our commitment is to move the data in the u.s., to be stored on american soil, by an american company. the risk will similar to any government going to an american company asking for data. host: what do you make of that exchange? guest: this is the cornerstone of tiktok's efforts to alight national security concerns, to create this elaborate oversight mechanism, this project texas, where all u.s. user data would end up doing stored in the u.s. and being overseen by an american company, oracle. ultimately, lawmakers are not buying that this would give them

the assurance that that data would not end up in china, whether through chinese engineers or business professionals or the chinese communist party. later in the hearing, a couple of lawmakers actually asked shochu have there been cases of chinese engineers accessing data on american soil? he could not give a straight answer, which i think is telling. but part of the problem with this project texas, and this was a tension that came out in the hearing, was that shochu was saying this is not about ownership but oversight. if you organize this data, it does not matter who owns tiktok. tiktok is a multinational corporation. ultimately, it might be accountable to companies in china. that does not matter. what the lawmakers were coming back with a mentor to saying

that ownership does matter. they were asking, have you received your compensation? who do you report to the corporate structure? who is on the board? how does the ceo interact with officials in china? with its parent company bytedance? even if you could guarantee that at a certain moment in time, all of this data was stored in the u.s., ultimately, if those lovers of corporate influence and ultimately government influence in china -- because the situation with the private sector in china is not what we are familiar with -- there is strong emphasis on the relationship between the government and the private sector. it is not so distinct. in that environment, how can you guarantee that amid all these oversight mechanisms, that ultimately the reporting structure and the power structure would not end up being

used as they were in the taste of tiktok investigating the journalist's leak to access data inappropriately. that is where project texas really did fall short and where we have seen it moving before with attempts at oversight of other chinese companies, such as huawei, where a lot of oversight mechanisms were proposed for similar reasons but ultimately decided that he could not guarantee that that infiltration would not be happening under our noses. host: andrew, new jersey, independent. what do you make of tiktok and the national security concerns? caller: i have a lot of concerns about china, particularly the chinese government. i personally believe that the spokesman that appeared before congress was nothing but a

puppet of the chinese government. tiktok is what is wrong with this country. social media is bringing down our freedoms, threatening kids in schools. my question is do you actually believe the chinese government? do you believe they are going to take over the u.s.? that is what i would love to know. guest: great question. it speaks to the system account we are in with china. we are not in this grand scale competition. we would probably not see quite as much attention over chinese owned apps like tiktok. i am a patriot, an optimist. i think that ultimately democratic sources of power in the u.s. are strong. if we play our very strong cards right, we will prevail in this

competition. i believe in our system. i think that our innovation system being bottom up and a capitalist innovation ecosystem ultimately is stronger in technology than some of the problems that china's phone system has encountered in recent years. i think we have a strong hand to play. that said, there is no underestimating the challenge that china poses. it is certainly xi jinping's ambition to supplant the united states in the international order, to rewrite the rules. the rules that are governing international relations. redefining democracy in a way that undermines human rights. i think that is very much the ambition that is important

context for considering issues like tiktok, social media, but, ultimately, we have to have at least some faith and put effort into improving our own system, our own technologies, regulating social media needed, such as on data privacy. we do have some of those checks and balances that can build towards a more competitive society in a way that somehow china does not. i can hamstring them in global competition. the challenge is real. we absently cannot rest on our morals and assume that we will prevail, but we have the tools at our disposal to make democracy successful. host: there are more apps than tiktok that are popular in the u.s. there is shen where you can order clothing. our lawmakers talking about only

banning tiktok or also foreign apps? guest: right now, the heat is on tiktok specifically, but there is a dawning recognition -- and i hope or an more policymakers will get to this point where there is a recognition that we needed to define a broader framework for what sort of apps or social media platforms, what technology platforms posed a concern and which do not and how we deal with that. right now, we are taking an ad hoc approach. there is perhaps good reason for that. it is far and away the most popular chinese social media platform. the ceo said this week 100 million american musings across the country. there is good reason for why policymakers are zeroing in on tiktok, but your question is

getting to where the debate in washington is heading that we cannot just have one off bans or sales. we need a broader framework to understand what are the real risks? does car data privacy and information regulation in terms of what data has shown, but how does that apply to shien, where it is more of a shopping app. does that pose a security risk? clearly, tiktok is not the first chinese out on u.s. shores and it will not be the last. congress should move in this direction of understanding and communicating to the american public, what are the real risks? what we need to be concerned about? how do we interest them without saying we are going to completely decouple our technology or our economies from china wholesale? how do we do it in a way that zeros in our national security

risk? host: ira, palm coast, florida, republican. caller: the u.s. government sounds jealous. that is all i am seeing, jealousy. people are jealous of china and its power. china is becoming more powerful. the u.s. government has gone back. that is what this is all about. host: andrew,, republican. -- ohio, republican. caller: i am concerned with the warfare being done by china. in 2014, they had the office of personnel management, 22

million. you had in 2019, two chinese nationals indicted for the medical data breach. in 2017, you had the credit company, 147 million records. what is the u.s. government doing about this? this is a huge threat. guest: both great questions. for the first, it is less about jealousy and more about concerns for the future of freedom and democracy. china is not gaining in power but gaining in a particular type of power credit that is an autocratic type of power. it is now exporting that around the world. that comes with chilling effect on free speech. even within democracies, it comes with extending its broader influence, not condemning russia's war in ukraine for example.

there are a whole host of consequences of china's rise that have less to do with supplanting the u.s. as the preeminent global power and more to do with what that would mean for the international order and the ability of people everywhere to live freely and exercise human rights. to the question of warfare, it is excellent. one of the reasons why these social media apps are getting so much attention is because it speaks to a motive on behalf of the chinese communist party that we know from past experience that handling american data is a national security objective for china. it is an incredibly tough problem. the opm was a government entity, but a lot of this is also playing out in the private sector. in recent years, the biden administration has taken a

number of steps to beef up cyber security officials and cyber security roles throughout the government. the expansion of the national director, the creation of a new office in the white house to oversee overarching cyber policy across the federal government, goals and the justice system to coordinate also with the private sector. it has raised the cost of engaging in cyber attacks, but also hardened our defenses. i do not think we are there yet. we certainly have a lot of cooperation to do with the private sector in areas where ultimately the government does not have the final say, but also hardening our own network within the u.s. government. it is certainly something that is underway. i think with these broader supply-chain policies as well, they are coming out of the cyber

directory and the national cyber strategy. the goal there is to look across technologies. where are the vulnerabilities? is it really just at the point of the user input? are there vulnerabilities in the software supply-chain? a few years ago, it showed how individual components, not even the prime contractor, could end up being vulnerable. looking across the supply chain is one of the innovations on the policy side we are seeing to identify what are those precise vulnerabilities in hardware and software to hardened these defenses? but it is an ongoing battle, a cat and mouse game. as soon as defenses go up on the adversary abilities go up. we are now seeing the role of artificial intelligence on both sites. this is a constant battle. we need to harden our defenses as long as our adversaries are

at it. host: lindsay gorman, thank you. thanks to all of you for spending some of your sunday morning with us. hope you have a rate day. -- great day. ♪ >> washington journal, every day, we take your calls to discuss policy issues that impact you. coming up monday morning, max owen, reporter for punch ball news, talks about the week ahead in congress. then kimberly leonard on the potential for ron desantis to

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