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>> alo with these other television providers giving you a front-row seat to democracy. n journal. i i'm joined now by wwj newsradio auto reporter jeff gilbert. welcome to the program. guest: thank you for having me. host: we will be talking about the new emissions limits and the proposals to increase ev sales. if you are in the eastern or central time zones, (202) 748-8000. if you are in mountain or pacific, it is (202) 748-8001. we have a line set aside for electric vehicle owners. we would like to hear from you at (202) 748-8002. you can text us or engage with us on social media. let's talk first about this

whole idea. the epa has announced the new emissions standards for vehicles. what is it all about, and how stringent are those limits for that proposal? guest: first you said the magic word earlier, and you said it at the end of that question -- proposal. this is the biden administration laying out what it wants to see in terms of carbon reduction. this does not mandate anything as far as ev's go, i was on a conference call with the epa, and they believe to meet these aggressive carbon reduction standards, the industry will have to sell two thirds of its vehicles by 2032. it is very ambitious. it is just laying out an agenda and expectations. from here they start talking to carmakers, environmentalists, and start the heavy lifting.

host: before we talk about how carmakers are reacting, there were standards set in 2021, so why another set of standards so quickly? guest: the 2021 standards go through 2026. these standards pick up after that. they go from 2026 throu 2032. this is part of the effort to make cars more fuel-efficient. host: you talked about the carmakers. they will have to be the ones to do this. how are they feeling about this? a lot of them are already moving towards electric vehicles. guest: carmakers have been muted in their public reaction, essentially saying"we look forward to opening up a dialogue." they will go to the government with their specific proposals.

if you look at what was said by the alliance for innovation, the trade group that speaks for all carmakers, their bottom line was "we have the same goals, but we may differ on the timetable." that is what you will see carmakers doing, " saying -- host: what happens if this proposal goes through, and they don't meet the deadline that is set? guest: the devil will be in the details. there will be within the rules penalties for not meeting them. today for example, if carmakers cannot meet certain rules they can buy credits from other carmakers. that is how tesla made money, by selling credits to other carmakers. once we get more specific rules, there will be specific

penalties. we don't know what will happen to carmakers who don't get it set up because -- host: electric vehicles are more expensive than gas vehicles or even hybrids. is there a plan for that price to come down? is the technology catching up to the point where that price will not be as prohibitive to so many people? guest: first, as you get more economies to scale, the prices go down to begin with. their prices of internal combustion engines are going up because for them to meet standards, they need more hybridization, more things to squeeze out more ntg's. they will meet in the middle. there are some things that will play out in the future. tesla showed us that people will ply ev's at the high-end of the market.

you are seeing pickup trucks and things like that. this summer gm will have a chevy equinox ev that will cost $30,000. gm and honda are working to make ev's that will sell in the 20's. we will see prices coming down, but it will take a while before ev's are as inexpensive as gasoline powered vehicles. host: what are we looking at in terms of how many ev's are being sold? there also hybrids and plug-in hybrids. guest: if you look at numbers, last year about 6% of all sales were for electronic vehicles. as you see this year goes on and you see more products come out and you see the price cuts from tesla and you see the chevy bowles back in high supply, you will see that number creep up -- chevy bolt back in high supply,

you will see that number creep up. host: i have just put some numbers on the screen. these are electric vehicle and hybrid plug-in ses. those doubled from 308,000 in 2020 to 608,000. plug-in hybrids are losing popularity. guest: there is a division among carmakers about what is the best way to meet those goals. you have carmakers like volkswagen in general motors who are only ev's. they went to go straight to fully ev's. toyota has staked its claim on hybrids. they are saying there is still a

lot to be left in hybrid technology, particularly plug-in hybrid technology. they have improved the range of the previous. it is an impressive vehicle. one of the things -- range of the prius. it is an impressive vehicle. california has ruled that all sales of vehicles must be electronic by 2035, but they make an exception for hybrids. companies like gm are saying "let's go right to ev's so we can eliminate the gasoline engine." host: it is not clear who gets a tax credit and who doesn't. guest: it is becoming a little more clear, at least for the time being. this is very complicated.

despite what i am going to say, make sure you check with your dealer because. dollars for an individual. there -- you have to make less than 350 -- you have to make less than $150,000 for an individual. it looks like a foreign-made ev will not, but there is an asterisk there. some carmakers say there are ways for us to turn them into leases, get that credit on a business basis because of loopholes in the law, and we can get you a very attractive lease very attractive lease. . today is the d 00 -- today is a day of clarity. today is the day the rules go

into effect. host: let's take some calls. roger in michigan own an ev. caller: i own a ford mustang mach e, and i was just wondering as a lot of these car companies -- you were talking about teslas and their high prices -- as they bring their costs down, i have fears about lithium-ion batteries. are there any concerns about the safety of these lower-cost cars? guest: the carmakers know that the battery is the heart of an electronic vehicle. i can't tell you that there won't be any glitches, but when there is it is expensive for the

carmakers. ford had to shut down production of their ford lightning because a battery caught fire in a construction yard. it cost them weeks of production. the chevy bolt production was paused for the better part of a year. i cannot promise there will not be issues like that in the future, carmakers are motivated to make sure that the battery technology does not get any cuts, because they can be very expensive if they have an issue there. my own business has been pulled out of some of the ford ev's because of the cost. ford is looking at the number of rockets they use in ev's to get costs down. that is an area they are trying to focus on the costs, i think

the battery is one area where safety will always come first. just to continue on the battery, they are learning their way around, fire departments, on how to fight electrical fires. there have been gasoline vehicles with flyers for years. in recent months, there's been recalls for people told to park a powered vehicles outside because of the fear of fire. fires are a problem with vehicles, whether they are powered by gasoline, batteries. hard to tell which is worse. host: jack is next in wisconsin, good morning. caller: as far as the ev's are concerned, the industry is still in its infancy and battery technology is changing. what people are paying attention to is the hydrogen. cars are being driven on hydrogen. the other thing about batteries is, let us say they last 10 years.

after 10 years, you have to buy a new battery. what is the cost of that? about 10 grand, so you are going to put $10,000 into a 10-year-old car? you can redo an engine for $2500, $3000. it does not make sense for the ev cars right now. guest: i will take the second point first, that is part of a larger issue that i have wondered about for a while. carmakers say they feel the batteries will last a lifetime of the car. but how long is the lifetime of a vehicle? a lot of people pump out internal combustion power cars, they will drive them for 20 years on average. will in ev last that long? -- an ev last that long?

the technological permits with electric vehicles over the last 10 years, if you drove a nissan least 10 years ago, you would be lucky to get 80, 90 miles of range. today, 250 miles of range is the entry-level. there is so much improvement that ev's will not beco obsolete faster than gasoline powered vehicles. the battery is one part of it. the second question about hydrogen, to bring people up to speed, we are talking about hydrogen as fuel, which they use on spacecraft for power. you do not need batteries, you need a fuel cell to fill it up with hydrogen. they fill up with hydrogen in a few minutes. carmakers have been working on that technology for 20 years. some carmakers think there is hope for gasoline powered vehicles.

the reality is, we pretty much have to decide on one infrastructure. it looks like the industry is moving to batteries. fuel cells would likely be in larger vehicles, like 18 wheelers, that require massive batteries. you can put a fuel cell in that is lighter. there is still a lot of work on hydrogen fuel cells. for the most part, carmakers have moved away from that for passenger vehicles. host: let us go to lexington, oklahoma. caller: i am on the wrong show, i was calling in for frank luntz . you put me on this one. thank you. host: anything to say about this topic, by chance? caller: i am from oklahoma, we

have an interesting conflict going on with lots of interest in ev, we produce a lot of oil and gas. there is that back and forth. surprisingly, the republican governor has been pushing for the alternative. that stirred up some interesting conflicts with oil and gas producers. with that, i better listen. let us talk to david in new hampshire, ev owner. caller: hey, good morning. i am a little nervous. i had a hybrid, now i have a revealing, which is fully electric. it has been a great experience, i absolutely love it. i do not know why anyone would want to talk to frank luntz,

that demon. but i love what you do. host: how long does it take you to charge it? caller: i can do a quick charge -- i can do an overnight charge for full, or a quick charge for three or four hours and it is great. it is a little truck, i was waiting for the ford lightning, but it would take me a year or two to get it. it is great, and oil changes -- it has been a great experience. the hybrid i think is really fantastic, i love the versatility. a full electric, i've got a charging port in my garage. it is great and i am saving a ton of money on gas. guest: can i ask you a couple of questions? caller: absolutely. guest: how often do you charge at a public charger? i imagine you probably do most of the charging at home, how

often do you use public charging and why do you use it? caller: i never use it. it is nice to know it is there, but i think it is more forgiving the public in a sense of, you know, it is out there. i've used a public charger once. and i drive quite a bit, i am on the road a lot for work. but no, i charge at home and that gives me anywhere, depending on the weather, 200 to 400 miles. it is just a win-win. when people say, what if i want to drive cross-country? i say, how often do you drive cross-country? once every 10 years? it is not a real thing. but i like seeing the infrastructure, it makes people more comfortable with it. guest: that was why ask that question.

for people who have a garage who do not drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day, they never have to charge it publicly. you skipped gas stations, skipped to public charging. the issue is people with apartments who cannot charge in their garage and people who park in the street and people who take long trips. at this point, it is not really practical for long trips. you can do it, but certainly you cannot do with the confidence you can with a gasoline engine. host: regarding charging stations in the bipartisan infrastructure law, there is funding, government funding for charging stations. how is that going, do you know, have the broken ground on that? guest: what we are seeing with the infrastructure bill -- we made far more charging stations than that funds. what that aims to do is fund

charging stations at places where somebody could not make a profit with charging today. for example, inner-city rural areas, places where a company that wants to make money on charging would look. host: looks like we might be having some trouble with the connection to jeff, let us go to chuck in alabama. good morning. caller: i do not know if you can hear me or not. host: i can. caller: really two problems with ev's, i think we are moving a little too fast. by moving too fast, we are helping china. the first problem is most of the materials going into batteries are being mined by little children in africa. you ought to see some of the pictures of these kids that are in horrible conditions having to mine this stuff.

china is killing these kids. the second thing, you are giving money to rich folks. a guy that is making $30,000 a year will not bite in ev, yet a guy making $150,000 a year will get money from the government. that seems to make no sense. why don't we slow down, get it to where america is making the batteries -- i do not know what percentage it is now, but most of the stuff comes from china and we are helping china and we do not need to be helping china. host: let us see if we can get jeff, did you hear that question? guest: yes, is the connection stable again? host: i am hoping, let us go with it. guest: the mining of materials is an issue, lawmakers are doing their best to make sure there is no slave labor, child labor use. i am not an expert, i cannot talk more to that.

in terms of ev tax credits going to rich people, $150,000 a year is a rich person's income in some parts of the country, 100 $50,000 a year you are barely treading water in some coastal communities. the idea behind the bills -- i am a reporter, i will explain the idea, not defend or criticize. the idea behind the inflation reduction act is to have more ev production, more battery production, more sales in the united states. that was the entire point of that legislation. host: he mentioned battery production and the materials, what do we know about how much of that is happening in the u.s.? guest: there are a lot of battery plants under construction in the u.s., several in michigan, gm has four under construction and ford is

building a massive complex in kentucky for battery plants. there is a lot of construction with the plants, a lot of work to find the minerals. there is a lot of work to get different ways. you cannot flick a switch and change things immediately. there is work for that and a lot of work being done on battery development that does not need as much of this critical minerals. that is happening right now. what is being purchased from china right now will likely be made in the u.s. in a couple of years. host: let us talk to anthony in new jersey. go ahead. caller: just a quick question, i hope i make myself clear. what is the difference for cost between gasoline and electric, if you want to go from one point to the other?

does it cost more for gas or cost more to fuel your car with electric? host: regardless of the cost of the vehicle? caller: just the fuel part. you are getting 20 miles to the gallon on gas, what are you getting with electric. $20 to refuel your whole tank, what does it cost to refuel on electric? host: i would expect electric to be a lot cheaper. guest: electric is cheaper, but there is a lot of variability. it depends where you get the electricity, what the electric rates are like in a certain part of the country. that is one of the issues with the infrastructure, the refueling infrastructure. there is no easy way to look at and ev charger. it is hard to make the apples to

apples comparison. i have heard the comparison, in general, is roughly between one and two dollars a gallon equivalent of gasoline. that is strictly rule of thumb and varies a lot depending on whether you are charging at home or on the road. in general, what carmakers say is the total cost of ownership of ev's is lower, refueling, the factory do not need oil changes, you do not need as much maintenance. while the sticker price is more, ongoing costs tend to be lust. -- less. caller: i am a climate reality leader, i just got my first at christmas time this year, my present to myself. i'm looking at my tesla gas

savings, and the performance i have had it i've saved $396 in gas. my local power company, i charge at home, it aspires to be 100% renewable he energized for our power region here. my question for you is, is there a national plan for situating electric vehicle chargers that regional airports? guest: i've not heard anything specific at regional airports, that would be a somewhat logical place for short term. long-term, people parking there for days -- thinking off the top of my head, how do you charge it then move the vehicle? one of the most interesting things i have seen is general motors teamed up with pilate to have fast chargers put into

truck stops. to me, that makes a lot of sense, because you have a place where you can do other things will the vehicles are being recharged. we are seeing things like that, but i have not heard much about airports. caller: i wanted to mention that one of my mentees informed me this week there were 8000 people being trained in the ira, bill and chip funding resources for electrifying our lives, that there is a process for recycling lithium batteries, are you familiar with that and do you see it as a growing sector? guest: as we have more vehicles reaching end of life, we have to decide what to do with those batteries. carmakers are working on systems to recycle those batteries.

there is a finite amount of lithium, they do not want to go to waste. there is a lot of work being done. but we are not yet to the point where there are a lot of electrical vehicles being scrapped and batteries being recycled, but there is a big effort underway to make sure as much material from those batteries can be used as possible. not only is environmentally friendly, but you do not want something valuable like that to go to waste. that is one of the biggest issues limiting ev production, the minerals that go in the batteries. host: we have a text from georgia, sounds like a lot of happy talk. the guest did not mention ev batteries can burst into flame just by getting wet and we do not have the grid to support and are dependent upon china to mind the minerals needed for batteries. -- mine the minerals needed for batteries.

i want to talk about mining the minerals and how dependent are we on china for the industry? guest: as i mentioned earlier, this is not an area of my expertise. there are concerns along the line that we are trying to do more mining in the u.s., that is something the ira is trying to support. this is not an area i cover, so i do not feel qualified to go further in depth. when we talk about ev's bursting into flames, we talked about that earlier. gasoline powered vehicles can catch fire, as well. ev fires tend to be worse because they burn at higher temperatures for longer. but it is too early to toe which is the bigger problem. was there another question? host: we will move on to denise in oklahoma, go ahead. caller: i wanted to ask about the rv industry.

we travel around 400 miles with a pickup, what is in mind for the rv industry? guest: interesting question, talking about standards for medium and heavy-duty trucks. that is not an area i cover, so i cannot go into specifics. the people that i talk to say probably the last vehicles that will be fully electrified will be the bigger pickups, larger trucks and things like that. it makes less sense. there are still some areas where internal combustion engines, gasoline or diesel, are far superior. towing vehicles is one of those areas. i notice from some people a feeling they will take my gasoline powered vehicles away, that could happen someday. but that is still a long way off.

the most ambitious plans being discussed are places like california, that is state-by-state in 2035 meaning gas powered vehicles will be sold in other states. that means gasoline powered vehicles will still be available. if there is ever going to be -- and who knows if there will be a full band on any gasoline powered vehicle and everything will have to be eeev -- we are talking a century in the future. this will be a long transition. people worry about not being able to get a gasoline powered vehicle do not have to worry about that certainly during my lifetime, probably in the lifetime of my children. guest: you mentioned in california, this is an article saying california is the highest state with the highest number of electric vehicle registrations per thousand people. let us go to fill-- phil in

hawaii. caller: hi. i have an idea, i do not know if it is practical at this stage. has anybody ever thought about having a universal battery exchange program, were you can drive your car into a batteries station, take the battery out, put a new battery in that is charged, leave the old battery to get recharged so all the cars have the stations and if the batteries went down, they would have the opportunity to put a new battery in the car? i know it does not sound practical, but to me it would seem like an alternative way of charging batteries that would be convenient instead of the idea it can only go so far. what do you think about that?

guest: it has been discussed, there have been experiments with it. here are some of the burdens to that, some of the issues that have to be solved. batteries are several thousand pounds, it would have to be done by a machine. batteries need advanced cooling technology, advanced technologies of the cells can talk to each other. unplugging it and plugging it in like you would do in a home device with a battery, it is not quite that simple. saying you solve both those issues, then if you go to a battery exchange station, where do you store the batteries that have been pulled out and recharge them? how many do you realistically need to take care of the people coming and going. see have to keep a couple of hundred one ton batteries on-site that are being simultaneously recharged with a lot of electricity?

a of storage space, a lot of electricity and a way to do it safely. at this point with today's technology, it is not feasible. i cannot tell you what will happen in the future, a lot of smart people working in a lab smart things. for the most part, there are working on finding ways to recharge existing batteries faster. they made improvements, it is not to the point where it is with gasoline. but a lot of people think the safer bet is trying to speed up conventional recharging, but it has been talked about. host: we are taking your calls for another six or seven minutes , brian is next in pennsylvania. guest: -- caller: i have two plug-in

hybrids, and they give you the best of both worlds. i can go any distance in an emergency. if i have to, i can go any distance i want. i get probably approximately 2500 to 3000 miles on a tank of gas. as for the life of the batteries , i had a 2004 previous that i sold to my brother, 19 years it is still going strong. the original previous used a hydride battery, not a lithium battery. host: you charge at home? caller: i charge at home, i have never charged at a charging station. host: i wonder about cost, have you seen an increase in your electric bill? caller: the electric bill is too

complicated, because they switched to heat pumps. so the electric bill is all over the place, plus i have solar input. [laughter] so it is hard. but i figure it costs probably -- we are in a high rate of electricity. it costs approximately two dollars a gallon -- the equivalent of two dollars a gallon for the electricity that goes into the car. host: do you think you would buy a fully electric vehicle, or you would stick with the plug-in hybrid? caller: i would probably buy another -- a full electric vehicle, as long as i had the plug-in hybrid -- it is funny, i had a friend. we had to go to indiana to see

another friend speak and he did not want to drive because he leased his car and was running low on miles, so we drummed -- jumped in the previous and he ruined my statistics for a couple of months. we went to full hundred miles or 1100 miles each way. host: any comment? guest: carmakers are divided on that. for customers, plug-in hybrids are a great solution. but for the car companies who have to develop them, a lot of the car companies like gm prefers to spend development money on pure ev's. if you talk to toyota, they are putting out more and more plug-in hybrids. they are more expensive to develop. but for a lot of customers, they are a great solution. if i was going on a long trip to

see how it was with an ev, i would be ok. but if i was going to any event, i'd be hesitant to take an electric vehicle because refueling infrastructure is not good enough for you to feel comfortable. host: a question from rodney, would lower maintenance and ev, what is the impact to dealerships and service? guest: right now, they are not enough ev's for there to be an impact, but it will be something dealers have to grapple with as they go forward. there's going to be a lot of gasoline powered vehicles on the road for a long time, so dealers do not have to worry. as they age, they might need more maintenance. it is a different kind of maintenance for ev.