watch american history tv every weekend and find a full schedule under program guide or watch online anytime at c-span.org/history. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more. including sparklight. >> the greatest town on earth is a place to call home. at sparklight it is our home to an right now we are all facing our greatest challenge. that is why sparklight is working round the clock to keep you connected. we are doing our part so it is easier for you to do yours. >>parklight support c-span is a public service along with these other television providers, even you a front row seat to democracy. >> this is michelle with the government accountability office she is the managing director for strategic issues at the gao, thank you for coming by.

we will talk about the high risk list, but before we start that conversation, explain the work of gao for those who do not know what you do. guest: it is sometimes referred to as the congressional watchdog, we evaluate federal programs, conduct financial audits, investigations, sometimes big protests. all of this with an eye toward more effective and efficient government. we are objective, fact-based, nonpartisan and independent. we make recommendations to federal agencies and to congress to make government work better. host: how did the high risk list come about? guest: it has existed for more than three decades, starting in 1990 as a way to focus congressional attention on an oversight agenda to call attention to the areas that are at greatest risk of waste,

fraud, abuse or mismanagement, or in need of fundamental transformation. we started the list in 1990. we've been issuing a new update at the beginning of every new congress, so congress can be aware of what the core issues are that command their attention. as we do that, we are highlighting areas being added to the list, areas that are being removed from the list. for each of the areas, we are showing what progress has been made. are they meeting the requirements we set out? is there more work to be done? if you go to the website, you can see all of the underlying work that informs all of this, everything on the list. if you want to dive deep, there is a lot of detail. you can see recommendations that we have made to federal agencies, as well as areas where congress can take action to improve government operations. host: what gets a program on the

list? guest: there are a combination of factors that go into deciding what goes on the list. these include qualitative and quantitative factors. darting with quantitative, it has to be something that is $1 billion at more that is at risk of fraud, waste or abuse. may be improper payment has occurred or is at risk of occurring. on the qualitative side, things at risk of threat to life, health and safety. national defense, national security. looking at all of those factors in combination, as well as ongoing oversight of federal programs. and foresight for things that we think are on the horizon that congress should be paying attention to, that all goes into the determination of what is a high risk area. host: some of the broad categories would include coordination of public health

emergencies, enforcement of tax laws, management of human capital, improving and modernizing disability programs, starting with the first one when it comes to public health emergencies, was this specifically covert related, or were there other factors? guest: we have all lived through public health emergencies, that is part of it. this area we added out of cycle, in the middle of a congressional session in 2022. we thought it was important for congress to be aware and we wanted to focus the agency's attention on this area. looking at the department of health and human services, leadership of and coordination of public health emergencies, as well as responses and recoveries from national disasters, this is informed by the most recent experience. it goes back more than a decade as we look at sica and ebola and

other public health emergencies as well as response to natural disasters, where we saw the need for greater coordination within the department of health and human services and across the entire federal government, and with state and local government and private sector entities. host: how does that relate to looking at the pandemic issue? guest: it plays any number of areas. another area we added out of cycle and 2022, we added unemployment insurance benefits. this is an area we had done a broad range of work on over many years, there was a spotlight on this program during the pandemic because there were millions of people in need of unemployment assistance. as that was happening, there were a lot of difficulties in providing administrative operations for this federal state program to provide assistance effectively and efficiently. there was also a fair amount of

fraud along the way, where people who did not qualify for the benefits were receiving the benefits. so we added that to the list last year. host: i imagine some of the response from various agencies, they were doing this in the heat of battle. it will be sometime before we realize what we have done as far as putting out money or things we should not have. guest: there was an emergency, congress provided assistance and agencies wanted to act quickly. at the same time, you need to build in the accountability at the outset and have some kind of smooth certification system that requires documentation to make sure the people who really need the assistance receive and bad actors do not receive it. host: entities have put up money that should not have been put out. what is the potential of getting it back? guest: it is ongoing. we work closely with agencies

and federal agencies inspectors general. when appropriate, we also make referrals to law enforcement agencies. some funds have been recovered, some unfortunately will probably never be recovered. these efforts are ongoing. to identify fraud where it happens but also recover whatever we can at the federal government. host: taking a look at the high risk list, you can find online and on c-span's website if you want to look at the categories. if you want to call and ask questions about what they have discovered, (202) 748-8000 for democrats, (202) 748-8001 for republicans and independents (202) 748-8002. if you want to text us, you can do that at (202) 748-8003. one of the other categories, it is getting a lot of discussion

lightly on capitol hill, tax law. particularly the enforcement of tax law. what did the gao find? guest: this was added to the list in 1990 and has remained on the list. even for some of the areas that were charter members, if you will, there's been incredible progress in various ways over the ensuing decades. there are two areas that we are looking at. one is something called the tax gap, the difference between taxes owed and taxes paid, trying to narrow the gap so funding due to the federal government as people file taxes is received. the second scenario is identity theft refund fraud, where people are claiming others refund when it is not their refund. we've been working with the irs on a number of areas, including these. we have a number of recommendations. the agency recently received new leadership, so he is in place as

the new commercial at the internal revenue service. they also have a new strategic plan that is playing out as we speak. congress provided about $80 billion to the irs through the inflation reduction act and those funds will help to fill gaps that have been created through budget crunches for more than a decade. they've hired 5000 people, they have plans to hire 5000 more this year alone. they are also working to implement open recommendations. host: how does that generally work? what is discovered? guest: the refund fraud, there's a number of efforts put into place. if you are a worker with a w-2, that becomes available sooner than it did a couple of years ago. that allows you to file for your taxes sooner than you might have been able to say a decade ago. that's been somewhat successful. another thing underway is, as we

have recommended, the irs is taking action. but there is more work to be some -- done in terms of digitizing paper returns that allows the return to be tracked if it goes through the review process. host: as far as the tax gap, it is -- is it finding people who owe taxes and making them pay them? guest: it is a complex partnership where you have multiple entities that are part of a corporate return, so it can be very complex. but also the individual tax filing. host: the first call comes from louisiana, the republican line. go ahead. caller: i used to work for the federal bureau of prisons, eyesight you have the federal bureau of prisons on your list.

they set me up and everything. what i want to know from the government accountability office , if they use their money to set me up, is there anything you all can do? thank you. guest: thank you for calling in for that question, the caller talked about the federal bureau of prison systems management, which is a new area that we added to the list. i am sorry to hear what you have experienced. you call attention to something that is part of the reason for the addition of the bureau of prison systems to the high risk list this year, that is staffing challenges. that creates issues for the inmates as well as the staff in the bureau of prisons systems, in terms of safety. so that is part of the problem. in addition, it is the programs in place through the bureau of prisons to make sure as inmates are serving their time, there are opportunities in place for them to work toward their

release and be able to become productive contributors to society. knowing what works and what does not along the way. our leader has met with the new leader of the bureau of prisons systems, having a leader in place is good news. there were six leaders in six years, there is now a leader who is committed to working with us to move forward on these areas and we look forward to working with the bureau of prisons as they implement our recommendations. host: host: a story about the indo new york times, they say about 100 62 thousand inmates and 122 prison camps employing a workforce of about 34,000 people were earned less then state and county corrections workers. guest: the human capital issues are substantial. for 22 of the 37 areas on the high risk list, skills gaps are

part of the reason why those areas are on the high risk list. it affects all sectors of society, including hiring and retention. as well as just helping people understand what positions are available. in this case, it is the office of personnel management at the center of government for human capital challenges and advising other federal agencies on what they can do to hire and retain people who are dedicated to public service. this is an area we have seen progress in, there is a director of the office of personnel management. there is that leadership commitment. going forward, we will continue to work with them as they work on their own human capital challenges and working with federal agencies across government as they try to meet their hiring challenges. host: john in minnesota, democrats line. caller: two things, i am from a rural district and many farmers

here. when the ppe loans were being given out during the pandemic, some of the farmers were splitting their farms up so the mother got 20,000, the father got 20000 and the sun got 20,000. some of that money was to go to payroll, then they used that money to pay each other as employees. the bankers told these people, they are good republicans, conservative people, the bank told them to not pay the loans back, they will not come after you. i think that was a huge fraud going on. every year, every farmer in this country has $30 paid by the taxpayers toward their insurance, $30 per acre. if they owned 10,000 acres,

which is not uncommon, that is $30,000 right off the top. it does not matter the fact we've now had three years of highest commodity prices in the history of the united states. these guys are floating in money and they are still being subsidized. guest: i will respond specifically to the question raised about the paycheck protection program, there is also the economic injury disaster loan program. these are areas that we are very much focused on in collaboration with other accountability partners. there is a pandemic response accountability committee and the inspector general community across government. in a case where you or others listening have noticed fraud, you can reach out to gao or go to our website, you can find more information about how to report fraud.

similarly, at the department of agriculture, if there is a specific fraud issue, you can recheck to the inspector general to begin the process to fraud and responsible use taxpayer dollars. host: talked about action plans for people, the agency that try to resolve issues that you bring up. what makes a good action plan? guest: an action plan is one of the five criteria we use as we assess high-risk areas. you need the leadership commitment to make sure the person at the top and their team are dedicated to initiating action. you need to have the action plan , the action plan needs to include gold metrics in a way to monitor the plan, so you see whether or not you are making progress over time.

the final criteria is demonstrated progress. leadership capacity action plan, which needs to include those metric milestones, goal and monitoring all of that to hopefully be able to demonstrate progress. host: frank in chicago, independent line. caller: good morning, quick question for you. appreciate learning all of this. i saw the dod was on the list in a couple of areas, particularly weapons -- acquiring weapons, financial -- they never passed an audit, they cannot be audited. you are reviewing the department of defense, the pentagon, i want you to go more into the action plan. they spend almost a trillion dollars of our money every year. host: we will leave it there.

guest: the caller has landed on employing issues that we are focused on and we work closely with dod to acknowledge the actions that have happened and acknowledge what needs to happen. getting to a clean, financial audit remains elusive. that is something we are very much focused on that we raise with congress, we work with the department of defense on. another area is an area that has been on the high risk list since its inception in 1990, that is dod weapon systems acquisition. it really gets down to the basics that are so important to any acquisition at any federal agency. performance, cost and schedule. when the costs are out of control, when schedules and goals are not met, that signals a problem. though progress has been made in a number of areas over the decades, given the scale of what the dod does and the number of

evolving weapons systems acquired, it is an area that we remain focused on. host: a part of its is legislation such as acquisition reforms approved for 2016 2017 prompted the dod to take action to improve outcome systems that work taking longer to develop into costing more, performing at lower than anticipated levels. can you elaborate? guest: what you landed on is something that happened when we issue the high risk list, it becomes a catalyst for action. it becomes a roadmap for congress to take action and conduct oversight, conduct congressional hearings, write oversight letters. in this case, congress passed legislation, which is sometimes necessary in order to prop the action or allow the action to happen statutorily. that is what happened here, that is good news. but more needs to be done. host: what would you recommend

on that front? guest: we are continuing to monitor the efforts that are underway, we also have a report that we issue every year looking at defense weapon systems across-the-board. you can look forward to that in the june july summer timeframe. in the midst of this, i would be remiss if i did not point out that this year, we saw great success in terms of high-risk outcomes. 16 of the areas on the list show progress, that is the most progress that we have seen in the eight years that we have used the current rating system. in addition to that, we measure financial deficits. since the last update in 2021, we were able to record $100 billion in financial benefits. that is incredible. going back further from 2006 to 2022, re-recorded -- we recorded

financial benefits resulting from actions taken on high-risk areas. areas such as defense weapon systems, acquisition remains critically important. we will continue to focus on that. but we want to acknowledge the actions taken by congress and the executive branch and we want that momentum to continue. host: there is more on the website if you want to see more, the specifics when it comes to the high risk report. let us hear from anthony in staten island, republican line. you are on with our guest. caller: you must be real busy. i have two quick questions. we know this administration lacks common sense and street marts -- smarts when it comes to money. where is the covid money that has been spent? when they put budgets before

congress, they allocate money for certain things in the budget. we know it is not spent on those things. do you follow that? if i say am going to spend $500 million on a program but i take the money and do not spend on that program, isn't that fraud? guest: those allow me an opportunity to talk about two additional things that we do, one is in terms of covid spending. we had responsibility under the cares act and related pandemic legislation to follow the money. looking across the whole of government at all of the funds that were appropriated for pandemic response and recovery and to see what agencies were doing with those funds. we issued those reports and continue to do so, those often serve as the foundation for congressional oversight. i mention the phrase following the money, we follow the covid money. there was also an infrastructure investment and jobs act that was

passed recently. we have a number of mandates under that act to follow the money. next week, we will issue a product we've issued a number of years called the nation's fiscal health report, which looks holistically at where we are as a nation in terms of revenues and expenditures and what the long-term outlook is. we will continue to do that, we do work with agencies as they submit their budgets to congress. often, congress calls on us to learn more about what they are seeing in the budget submissions and understand where there are targets of opportunity for increased efficiency. that is where they often lean on our recommendations to facilitate action in congress. host: we saw the biden administration make a call people working at home from the pandemic to go back to their offices. has any measurement been done about the impact of federal workers at home and how that impacted overall efficiency? guest: we have ongoing work on telework, we previously did work

on telework pre-pandemic. the current administration has urged federal agencies to tie those decisions to performance metrics. so if people need to be in a customer service facing occupation, they are then available to meet with the public and make the decisions based on those criteria. we will continue to follow that as it plays out and as individual agencies make decisions about what their future operating posture is. host: harold is in florida, democrats line. caller: good morning. i am concerned with other government agencies, whether it is federal, dod, state or even county government. there is a structural waste situation that goes on in every single department and office, where the budget is allocated.

if the money is not spent by the end of the fiscal year, each manager and director comes in and says, we need to spend this money, otherwise it is taken away for next year's budget. what is your wish list? do you need a new chair? we've got to spend the money. there is an incentive sent to every single government agency to use or lose the money, rather than having an incentive to save the money they did not need to use to do their duties. this is across every agency i have ever seen, i do not understand why it is not addressed. guest: that is an issue gao has looked at, any incentives that may exist for agencies to rapidly spend those dollars at the end of the fiscal year. so that is something we have

completed work on and will continue to complete work on, as well as how agencies make their budget decisions and other related topics, such as obligated balances. an obligation has been made, but a balances remaining in an account. that is an important issue and one that fits into our overall consideration of fiscal health. host: the scenario he described, is it true? does that happen? guest: it can happen. part of what we do is go to federal agencies and understand the time of their decisions and what the reasons are. there have been cases where we had a continuing resolution in place pretty far into the fiscal year, that then delays agency decision-making as they wait for final appropriations. in other cases, you see ramped up spending in the latter months of the fiscal year. that is an issue that we keep an eye on as we do our overall work. host: how long does it take to

put together what is involved in putting it together? guest: it is one of those projects that is large, there are 37 areas that remain on the list at this point. it kind of never stops, because there is underlying work informing all of the decisions i talked about. the qualitative and quantitative mix of factors. as we issue the list, we have other work underway and we are meeting with federal agencies to follow up on recommendations, making sure we touch each recommendation at least once per year so we understand what is happening and the actions they are taking. gao as an agency, legislative branch agency, just over 3000 employees located in washington. also 11 field offices around the country. host: mike in california, independent line. caller: good morning.

harold stole most of my thunder, he is absolutely right. i do not mean no disrespect, but you are swatting at flies in this elephant is rampaging through our country. the government is way too large, they do have incentives. i'm a former auditor in the private sector, long time ago. that is the structural problem. they always spend the budgets, it is got to be stopped. you've got to come up not so much with finding a guy who has got money in his drawer, but the government -- if they are going to control this, they have to build in incentives to accomplish goals more efficiently. they are always going to meet their budget, because that is how next year's budget is set.

it is endemic to fund it, i am sure you are familiar with fund accounting. unless that is changed and now, at this stage, our biggest risk with monetary policy is we know it does not work. the government spending this money is not helping our people. guest: i would like to use this as an opportunity to focus on and i think is a cause for hope and optimism across the government through the high risk list. i talked about areas we added to the list this year. we also removed two areas from the list this year. what that reflects is our work with congress in the case of benefit guarantee corporation's, they provided additional funding for the employer pension program that then helped the program maintain solvency so the

solvency date is further out in the future. one way that happens is our work with congress. the other area removed from the list this year is the 2020 census. in that case, we worked closely with the bureau of the census as they were conducting it. we've been clear when they were added to the list in 2017 that the rampant cost increases we saw prior were not sustainable. they were able to bend the cost curve, they now have procedures in place and a plan in place to monitor the spending for the 202030 and they responded to all of the items i mentioned as criteria to measure whether or not an area remains on the list. we do not walk away from the areas once we take them off the list, we continue to monitor. i used as examples of areas were reworked with congress and federal agencies and saw significant progress.

in addition to that, the 16 areas on the list that showed progress, that is a good news story, as well as the $100 billion we have seen in financial benefits since the last update two years ago. host: catherine in maryland, republican line. caller: good morning. thank you for all you do on c-span. my question is, she said something i heard before. the audit of the defense department is elusive, i do not buy that. how could it be elusive? there's so much money being sent -- spent, i cannot believe that is something we can't get a hold of. i know congress does not mind to spend money on defense, but we cannot account for and we are sending trillions of dollars to other places in the world and we do not know where it is going and what is going to happen to it.

thank you. guest: thank you for raising that, that is something that we fundamentally agree on. it is clear in the congressional hearings when he testified before the senate april 20 and last week before the house oversight and accountability committee that it is not acceptable, that is why we continue to work with the department of defense as we are seeking a clean audit opinion. that is work that has been underway for a number of years. it is unacceptable and we will remain committed to making that happen. host: one of the categories is federal disability programs. three of the largest programs paid about $300 billion in cash benefits to the programs in the fiscal year 2021 to 20 million individuals, both agencies struggle to manage their workloads and make benefit that claims. -- benefit claims.

guest: human capital challenges are a separate high risk issue. they have skills cap and challenges filling positions to examine disability claims and appeals. if you are someone who has filed for disability or filed an appeal and that process is taking longer than it should, you are waiting and you are in real need. that is a lot of what is happening. the veterans affairs department and social security administration are the two primary agencies responsible. similar to a number of other areas, during the pandemic those challenges increased. in addition to that, part of the challenge is there are multiple programs across federal government that are focused on disability employment in some way. there is an office of disability employment, but they do not have

the same kind of authority that a white house office would have. when they are working across the government, they do not have the same leadership capability as they might if they were at the center of government. so pulling all of that together and addressing the skill gaps and human capital challenges are related to that high risk area. host: we are just about out of time, go ahead with your question or comment. caller: i spent most of my career working on military bases , particularly colorado springs. the fraud waste and abuse is rampant on these military bases. it is unbelievable what they waste and how it works. if they spent a little time on the bases, they would see -- i've often made the comment that if i could have all the money go through a person and have him

save the money or look at the budget, that person would walk out and take 1%, walk out of there every year's a millionaire. it is so rampant, it is unbelievable. especially end of year, they spend like crazy just a wasted. i do not know how you can say you were doing a good job in saving all of this money when it is not happening. host: forgive me for that, thank you for the call. guest: the work is certainly not done. we still have 37 areas on the high risk list, number are focused on the department of defense. part of the reason for that is because of waste fraud, abuse and mismanagement. we never stopped working on the high risk list and we have ongoing work where we are engaged with agencies trying to get their action on recommendations, as well as consulting with congress as they

conduct appropriations hearings. today in fact in the senate. we work with them as we encourage implementation of recommendations and for anyone listening who has evidence of fraud, waste or abuse, we encourage them to consult us or in the case you mentioned, to report those issues. host: michelle sager with the government accountability office. >> c-span's washington journal, every day we take your calls live on the air and the news of the day discussing policy issues that impact you. coming up sunday morning, ethics and public policy senior fellow henry olson discusses campaign 2024 in the future of the republican party. then documentary filmmaker

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