host: title 42 has brought an

increased number of migrants to the u.s. other border. that number was on the rise post-pandemic. the u.s. house passed a border bill last week that will probably not going anywhere in the senate. the parties agree u.s. immigration policy is woefully out of date and not merely reflective of the immigration challenges of today. america has not lost its luster as a beacon of hope for immigrants. if anything, worsening economic conditions have made the beacon brighter, despite new challenges at the border. good morning, it is sunday, may 14. it is mother's day, happy mother's day. our first hour on the program, we are asking immigrants only, how and why do you come to the u.s.? if you have been in the country less than 10 years, use (202) 748-8000. if you have been in the country between 10 and 20 years, use (202) 748-8001.

more than 20 years, use (202) 748-8002. send us a text if you would like at (202) 748-8003, include your name and the town you are writing from. on facebook, you can send us a response and you can send us your thoughts on twitter and instagram. we will hear from administration officials, members of congress on the passage of the border bill in the u.s. house on thursday. the first hour is focused on you, immigrants in the u.s. and how you came to the country, why you came to the u.s., we would like to hear those stories in the light of increased traffic at the southern border and the numbers of people coming across the border not only in the past week, but the past year or so. for those of you --(202) 748-8000 for those of you in the country less than 10 years,

(202) 748-8001 between 10 and 20 years and more than 20 years, (202) 748-8002. some background from the migration policy institute, frequently requested statistics on immigrants and immigration in the united states. they say the united states is in the midst of a historic. in its immigration history, facing a challenge composition of immigration population and pandemic related demand for permanent and temporary visas, resulting in extensive backlogs, record pressure at the border and somewhat decreasing public support for expanded immigration. legal and permanent immigration rosen 2022 after a few years of chill bought about by the covid-19 public health care crisis in the trump administration's restrictive policies in rhetoric.

the biden administration extended or expanded temporary protected status for certain eligible immigrants already in the united states and announced humanitarian parole programs are allowing for some migrants from several countries to enter the u.s. and stay temporarily. some of the data from the migration policy institute just on the numbers of immigrants in the united states, nearly 43 immigrants in the u.s. in 2021, that is the most since census records have been kept, 15 .6% of the total population, short of a record high of 14.8% in 1890 and slightly below the number in 2019. where are the migrants coming from? this is 2021, the leading country is mexico with nearly 11 million migrants in 2021, 2.7 million from india, 2.3 from

china, 1.9 million from the philippines, 1.4 million from el salvador, vietnam with 1.3 million and cuba, 1.2 million. same for the dominican republic and a little bit less for guatemala and south korea, a total -- the top number is 10.7 for mexico. why did you come to the united states? immigrants only this first hour, (202) 748-8000 for those of you in the country less than 10 years, (202) 748-8001 if it is between 10 and 20 years, and (202) 748-8002 more than 20 years. as the title 42 restrictions were about to be lifted, we heard from the homeland security secretary. [video clip] >> let me be clear.

the lifting of title 42 public health order does not mean our border is open. in fact, it is the contrary. our use of immigration enforcement authorities under title eight of the u.s. code means tougher consequences for people who across-the-board or illegally. unlike under title 42, an individual who is removed under title eight is subject to at least a five-year bar on reentry into the united states and can face criminal prosecution if they attempt to cross again. smugglers have been hard at work spreading false information the border will be open after may 11, it will not be. they are lying. to people who are thinking of making the journey to the southern border, know this. the smugglers care only about profit, not people.

they do not care about you or your well-being. do not believe there lies. do not risk your life and your life savings only to be removed from the united states if and when you arrive here. today, we are beginning a new digital advertising campaign in central and south america to counter the lies of smugglers with accurate information about u.s. immigration laws. this campaign adds to the extensive ongoing communications efforts in the region. as you can see by the images before us of removal flights and encounters with border patrol agents, we are making it very clear our border is not open, crossing irregularly is against the law and those not eligible for relief will be quickly returned.

host: if you put from the biden administration on wednesday, a comment from congressman mark green yesterday on the biden administration policy saying the biden administration is working overtime to convince americans that crisis has peaked, it has not. he is talking about the border bill that passed in the u.s. house on thursday and we will dive into that in a little bit. the first hour of washington journal, if you are an immigrant to the country, please call in with your thoughts on how and why you came to the u.s. if you have been here less than 10 years, the line to use is (202) 748-8000, between 10 and 20 years (202) 748-8001, and more than 20 years (202) 748-8002. the new york times breaks down a bit on the process of ending into the united states, the

headline who gets in a guide to america's chaotic border rules. new restrictions will lead to many migrants being deported, but others will soon get into the united states. here's what the process will look like. if you are a migrant turn to cross the border, you can seek humanitarian parole. few nationalities qualify. you can get an appointment at a border checkpoint, has a glitchy app and few spots available. if you choose to cross illegally, many turned themselves in to seek asylum. what happens? generally detained and deported is likely for single adults. there is also a process of temporary release into the u.s., new rules will restrict access to asylum with the lifting of title 42 and the other option is to evade detection, small but rising number of migrants are using that as well. the migration policy institute

with data on where migrants are going once they come into the united states, the states with the highest population is california, 10.5 million. this is 2021. texas with 5.1 million, florida 4.6 million, new york 4.4 million and new jersey with 2.1 million. the states with the percentage of population, california 27% of the population are immigrants. new jersey, 23 percent. new york, 22. florida, 21. hawaii, 19% and nevada with 18% of the population identifying as an immigrant in 2021. robert is on the line in florida, tell us your story. good morning. caller: good morning. i came here in 1969 illegally.

i waited one year for the process. i escaped communism, that was the main reason. host: which country were you escaping from? caller: originally from albania to yugoslavia. we wanted to come to the u.s. and fight communism because we knew what we were going through and since my father was jailed for absolutely nothing -- he was accused because he was listening

to the free voice of america. host: why was the united states the best choice for you? caller: united states provided the most freedom. the united states was the country that was actually fighting communism. i accepted to sign in and go to vietnam at that time, because the period that i came to italy and was in camp again for one year, going through a process, every process to qualify to come to the united states. one of the questions at that time, are you willing to serve the u.s. army? and i accepted that.

we were so frustrated and angry, we understood what communism is. the united states was the only country that actually was fighting communism and that was my best choice to come. host: one more question, do you think the answer responding yes to the question about if you were willing to serve in the u.s. military, do you think that pushed it over the edge for you and got you access to the united states? caller: no, i do not think so. the main reason at that point was i believe if you came for economic reasons, i do not think

he would have been able to qualify. -- you would have been able to qualify. but if you were anti-communism, if you were oppressed or discriminated, you qualified to come to the united states. my qualification was anti-communism. but i am very sad, because the united states even today is a dream that represents freedom. but being over 50 years here, i am very saddened what i really see is happening to the united states. i cannot express -- i have five children, five grandchildren. college graduate.

i was very successful here. i operated a very successful restaurant for over 40 years in this country. i've been in this country 1969. by 1976, i was able to open up my own business. host: thank you for sharing your story, we appreciate that for leading us off. to virginia, been in the country over 20 years. apologies if i mispronounce your name. caller: you got it right, good morning. can you hear me? host: we can hear you just fine, go ahead. caller: i came here in 1985

during the time of ronald reagan , it is that time when i came living here in alexandria, virginia. i was involved in drugs in 1994, an american lady called the cops on me for drugs. i was locked up. i have six children here. i have been here 38 years. these republicans do not want to propose immigration reform.

during 2013, i was qualified and voted in the house, they could not pass it. people are suffering in this country with these policies the republicans are doing to immigrants. host: remind the year you came to the u.s.? caller: 1985, march of 1985. there are millions of us that live here that are suffering. host: when did you become a citizen, or has that happened yet? caller: not yet, that even a word for me.

host: to go through the green card process in this country, here is what it takes. the most typical way is through family or employment, also as a special immigrant. you can get it through a refugee or claiming to be a refugee or asylum, if that is granted. human trafficking, crime victims, victims of abuse, and through a registry process. house republicans passed hr to last week, legislation -- border legislation passing in the u.s. house largely on a republican vote. here is chip roy of texas

commenting during the debate. [video clip] >> we are here today because of the abject failure of the administration to do its fundamental duty to protect the united states. we have an open border empowering cartels and china to the detriment of american citizens and migrants that seek to come here supposedly in the name of compassion. dead migrants lying along the rio grande in south texas, the extent to which migrants suffer in the texas heat, 50 three dying in a tractor-trailer last summer in san antonio, thousands being sold into sex trafficking and being used as political pawns by a party devoid of anything substantive to take this country forward, but republicans are standing up strong way to make sure this country will stand for the rule of law that sets our country apart around the globe and attracts so many to want to come here. border patrol right now apprehended over 10,000 migrants on monday and 11,000 on tuesday.

the highest single day totals ever recorded. 26,000 got away, 660 thousand migrants waiting in mexico. the president of guatemala confirming venezuelan migrants are heading to the u.s. ahead of title 42's expiration. border patrol estimates 60,000 to 65,000 migrants are in northern mexico. i got a text from local law enforcement saying we are almost at broken arrow from every sector is near 150% capacity. the first 515 in a group of 1500 service members of the army and marines were set to arrive, a shootout erupted at a bridge. schools in el paso are adding more security, el paso ran out of shelter and declared an emergency. brownsville declared an emergency.

san antonio is preparing -- migrant shelters are expressing concern being overwhelmed. the new york city mayor, a sanctuary city's busing migrants outside of new york city out to the suburbs because my democratic colleague and the democratic administration and democratic leaders and so-called sanctuary cities do not give a with about migrants. it is about political power and they are costing lives, endangering americans, causing children to die from fentanyl poisoning and they know it. that is what is so pathetic, but republicans offer legislation today that would force the administration to do the job it refuses to do. host: some of the republican side of the debate on hr 2 in the house the other day, focusing this first hour on immigrants to the united states, how and why did you come to the u.s.? (202) 748-8000 if you have been

in the country less than 10 years, (202) 748-8001 if it is between 10 and 20 years and for those in the country over 20 years, (202) 748-8002. comments on social media including facebook, the american company came to my campus abroad to recruit interns, i ended up being one of them to get the contract. i forgot how many times i was told by american conservatives i have no room here because i take the job of an american-born. from panama city, florida came here with my husband and became a citizen in 2000, immigrants built our country, the statue of liberty welcomes all. republican incorporations talk about immigrants like they are less than but we will be first -- but they will be first in line to hire them for labor. disgusting immigrants. what is melania trump's immigration story?

next up is laverne and virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. the question is how and why i came to this country? host: yes. caller: i came to this country by plane, airplane, from jamaica. my parents brought me here over 20 years ago. they came to the country for the opportunity and extreme freedom the country provides. at the time when i came to this country, i was 12 years old, going on 13. went through the school system -- i learned everything in life here in america, this great country. i must say, from then in the 70's when i came in this country to now, completely different country.

nevertheless, i appreciate being in america. i came here the right way. by the embassy. we had to prove my mom could take care of us, we could speak english. we had no diseases, my grandmother got up early in the morning just to go to the american embassy to apply for us. i do not have a problem with immigration. it is just illegal, why can't they just do it right? host: what kind of work did your folks do when they came to the u.s.? caller: my mom worked as a personal cleaner for houses, my stepfather at the time worked car insurance. i went to the school system. i became a registered nurse, i

learned everything here in america and i am grateful to be in america, because the things i've learned in america i do not think i would ever learn in jamaica. it is sad at this point in time in my life to see what america has become. host: let us go to clifton in boston, massachusetts. caller: good morning, how are you? my family came over from honduras in the late 70's and we did at the right way. the only thing i have a problem with america is they give other nations like afghanistan and ukraine citizenships when they come over here, they do not give them a hard time. but when it comes to central americans, we have a hard time. america is a great nation, i learned a lot from america. i learned to speak english, my first language is spanish.

i speak spanish and english. i do not have a problem coming here and doing it the right way. the problem with america is, it picks and chooses what country it wants to let in. it picks and chooses -- host: why do you suppose -- you mention specifically central american countries, why do you think that is? caller: if you are from central america and your country is messed up, it is under supreme poverty, supreme dictatorship, you are not going to stay there. you want to go to a place where you have more freedom. when my family came here, it was the same old rhetoric. they are taking our jobs, doing this and that. we are not taking american jobs. we are building a life for our families back home where we left our homeland, you know what i am saying?

my grandmother sacrificed everything to bring all of my family members up here. it hurts me when people say illegal aliens, that is the most racist thing i've heard. we are not illegal aliens, we are people from other countries. i wish people would stop saying that word. host: this is a headline from roll call this past week, democratic appropriator urges end to northern triangle countries, writing the hundreds of millions of dollars that washington annually provides to central american countries as part of the effort to reduce numbers of desperate migrants who flocked to the u.s. southern border could be in jeopardy of a democratic appropriator with years of experience on the issue is anything to say about it. the representative rigell -- representative of california, an immigrant from guatemala, said at a recent house appropriations

subcommittee hearing that she wanted to cut off all foreign aid to northern triangle countries of guatemala, el salvador and honduras. my budget priorities is to defund all three countries completely of all programs, she told samantha power, the head of the u.s. agency for international development at a hearing in april about the 2024 budget request. i do not know how we can look a u.s. taxpayer in the face and say what we are doing is preventing people from coming north. on thursdays washington journal, an illinois democrat, the daughter of guatemalan immigrants, talked about her view that there is common ground between democrats and republicans on some issues. here is what she had to say. [video clip] >> people need work permits. the reality is, people are seeking asylum because they are

literally dying in their countries. they are walking miles, crossing jungles and they want to work. they want to pay taxes. so why don't we give people worth authorizations? -- work authorizations? i have heard my colleagues say we need more workers, i agree. but it's give people worker permits. let us make sure the people who are doing that thing, that we are calling action to address the issues. the people that are crossing, the vast majority are women with children and you cannot tell me a child deserves to be immediately deported to the country they are fleeing from. >> would you agree to put a limit on how many people can come in and receive a work permit, based on how many jobs there are in the country available? caller: -- >> if we actually had a program

where we did that, i believe we would be able to put a number. but i feel like we have to assess the needs all understanding there will be people that are going to be seeking asylum. this country was founded on immigrants, this country has been one that has been welcoming for hundreds of years. we should be addressing the issue of work authorization to address workforce, we should also continue to provide asylum for those that need it. those may be children and children should never be working. host: some views from other members, including california. biden has a plan for open border , catastrophe. he is going to make it worse. another says we need to modernize immigration system and invest in organizations doing the work of connecting people, make sure they are housed, fed

and get where they need to go. democrats are united in this humane effort. next in england, good morning. caller: i live in england, but the reason people want to get to americas because they want a better life in america. host: how much is immigration law changed in the u.k. since exit -- brexit? caller: they just want a better life.

whatever. host: we will go to south carolina, been in the country over 20 years. caller: how are you, sir? host: fine, thank you. caller: i came here in 1982, one thing i do not hear much of talking how immigrants like myself -- i came from montenegro , the former republic of yugoslavia. i crossed the border from mexico to san diego. host: that is quite a journey. so you came from montenegro and went to mexico, then the united states? caller: correct. host: how long did that take

you? caller: from the time i left montenegrin across the border, probably 10 days. we went to germany, from germany to mexico city, from mexico city to tawana -- tijuana. you find someone to take you over the border from there. nobody really talks about it, nobody regrets that came here. we came here for one reason, the future being better, and we got it. but what are we going through to get to the point, when we work on the farms, what kind of living we have. most of the time when you work

on farms or whatever, people do not have a living standard. but we make it, nobody complains. nobody is complaining about that. host: is that how you made your living, through farming? caller: the first three years. then i moved north and you do not have papers, nobody mentioning we pay taxes, because most of the time when you work for this contract, construction or farm or restaurant, they are giving us somebody else's social security so we can pay taxes. it is not ours, it is for somebody else. nobody wants to talk about the abuse we are going through.

we are trying to make a better living, trying to do things right. host: you have been in the country now 41 years or so, have you been able to become a citizen? when did that happen? caller: yes, that happened 89. 98, i am sorry. host: in washington, d.c., maria. good morning. caller: good morning, i'm glad you are doing this program, there is so much this information around immigration. i am pretty privileged, i came here because of choice, not because of need. i did it through the diversity visa program and i want to take the opportunity to explain about

the program. it does not mean you are selected and you get a visa, it means you get a case number and you can apply to the immigrant category, permit emigrant category. you have to follow the process like everybody else, it takes about two years from the moment you enter to the moment you are able to enter the states come up to two years. that being said, it is too easy for people to say do this the right way, do this the legal way. it is a process. the wait times, the fees, the requirements are not what they were 30 years ago, 40 years ago or earlier. they are not. i grieve with what -- i agree

with the clip about work permits, a lot of people do not come to this country with the idea of i want to stay forever and i'm going to be the citizen. a lot of people need a temporary reprieve, they need -- they are in complex situations. they need something temporarily. a lot of them dream of eventually going back home. there should be a process -- a green card is permanent residence. but a lot of people -- as you were saying, the only ways to get a green card involve a very long process.

a lot of people need the temporary work authorization to maybe be here a few years. host: we lost maria, i was going to ask if she has gotten the green card yet. somehow it dropped on us. thanks for calling in. in florida, leo. good morning. caller: good morning. i have been here for 20 years, i was born in venezuela. mayview is you do not come to my house without an invitation. i agree with immigrants, i think we need immigrants. you cannot allow people to come here -- i waited about seven years to get my papers, my kids were born here. i speak english, i get told to speak slowly. politics aside, no country in the world would allow this to

happen. only in america this happens, only here. i'm glad to be here. host: the u.s. house passed its immigration bill, hr 2 is the number of the legislation. that bill would restart the construction of thboer wall along the u.s. southern border, boost personnel and technology at the border, pose asylum restrictions and require employers to check worker legal status through a program called e-verify. kevin mccarthy had this to say. [video clip] >> by passing this, house republicans have shown we are focused on addressing the nation's biggest challenges. by contrast, the white house has two years to plan for the end of

title 42. we all knew the deadline, but the white house produced no plan, missed the deadline and bumbled into another crisis. even president biden, who has only been to the border one time, says this. there is going to be chaos for a little while. since the white house keeps missing deadlines, i want you to know how we did it. we identified the problem rather than ignoring it, we listened to the american people. then, we took action. host: in the aftermath of the passage of the bill, the lifting of title 42 restrictions at the border, we are talking to immigrants only this first hour about your american experience, how and why you came to the u.s.. (202) 748-8000 is the line to

use if you have been in the country less than 10 years. between 10 and 20 years, the line is (202) 748-8001. for those in the country over 20 years, (202) 748-8002. in maryland, good morning. caller: good morning. the issue about immigration, let me tell you something. immigration has to build this country. i came here 2008 -- hello? when i came to america, they had everything. america helped me and today i am glad. everyone is trying to come to america and do the same thing,

many of my friends do not come here and exit. everyone of us that i know went to school. immigration -- everybody should come through the process. however, there are people who cannot wait for the immigration system because it is too long. i worked in health care. many of the places i have worked , doctors and nurses, many are from different countries.

last year, over 15,000. one way or the other, they pay into the system and help build the country. we help our family and ourselves. host: in new york, this is alexander. been in the country over 20 years. go ahead. caller: yes, good morning. sorry for the background noise. i have been here since 83, my parents brought me here due to the violence and columbia -- in

colombia, so we immigrated here. i hear a lot of people calling about the right way or the wrong way, it is a complicated question. people do not have time. my parents did not have time, they were starting to kill people that had businesses because things became unstable and - in colombia. if you have the luxury of waiting, you can do it legally. i live in new york city, it shaped who i am. i am bilingual and there's a lot of people that might say immigration is tearing this country apart. i could understand some of that, but immigration is what built this country. if you look at all of the

essential jobs and things that make the city run -- construction, restaurant workers, delivery drivers, they are all immigrants. if this country embraces immigration the way it did postwar, you could have a lot more people in the system, a lot more people paying into the system. those people calling now that are republicans and democrats in their 70's, explaining social security, who do you think will pay for all of that if you have immigrants in the system? host: how old were you and your folks brought you to the u.s.? caller: six years old. host: what do you remember most from that experience? caller: i honestly think there is a trauma that happens, it is hard to explain. as a six-year-old, my whole world was in spanish.

when they came here, we did not have esl or any of the things you had now. i was thrown into a classroom and everybody's folk english -- everybody spoke english. i was the lightest kid in the neighborhood, i got beat up on. i had to learn english, there was no way around it. kids now do not know how good they have it when they come from latin america, they have esl and all these things we did not have. it was dramatic. i've not gone back to colombia, my mother -- they kidnapped her when she left the airport when she did try to go back. she said she would never go back again and i have not gone back. it is heartbreaking to see families having to leave everything, and i will leave with this. the united states was very happy

when bill clinton passed -- a lot of companies made a lot of money and that money was at the expense of mexico because all of the companies went over there and destroyed their economy, that was a reason for the wave of people that came in the 90's. some of those people now do not want immigration. there is necessity, it is the reason why people come here. host: we appreciate you sharing the story. scenes from both sides of the border as title 42 expired and a scene of migrants making their way across the rio grande river on thursday at the end of title 42 has sent tremors across the u.s., marking a major shift in immigration policy at the u.s.

mexico border. termination of the order spurred a surge at the border were a growing number of migrants continue to flee violence, poverty and political instability in hopes of seeking refuge in the u.s. president joe biden has warned of a chaotic period ahead as they adjust to policies from the biden administration, including a rule that would bar most people from applying for asylum if they cross illegally or fail to first apply for safe harbor in another country. in the debate, republicans border bill, a congressman of texas had this to say. [video clip] >> i am the son of immigrants and project represent the heart of texas. for generations, my family has moved back and forth between mexico and texas. people immigrate in search of

safety, for economic opportunity , but always for family and a better life. what folks are not immigrating for us to bring fentanyl into the country, as folks on the others of the aisle have been talking about time after time. it was laid out clearly that over 90% of folks arrested for sentinel trafficking are u.s. citizens and lawful residents. that is why this anti-immigrant bill is cruel, extreme and not based on fact. it would destroy the asylum system, caged children and families and make the situation at the border worse. this bill will let eight funding for much of the remaining legal immigration system that we have, leading to chaos. but chaos is what top or public officials want, they want immigration system to stay broken so they can blame democrats for it. this is a case of arsonists blaming firefighters for the flames.

congressman castro and i worked with the biden administration to expedite funding to texas this month to ensure that migrants can sleep in a safe shelter while they process their immigration case, instead of being in a tent on the border. this republican bill in front of us today would ban these shelters and services. migrants sleeping on the streets of texas may be a better shot for fox news cameras, but it is a worse deal for everyday people. host: the congressman talking about his mexican migration experience with his family. the largest group of immigrants to the u.s., writing that for years starting in 2013, mexico ceased to be the top country of origin for new immigrants in the u.s., overtaken by china and india. they do suggest that during the pandemic, mexicans have become the largest immigrant group amid

widespread restrictions on mobility, particularly people traveling long distances. among u.s. foreign-born residents who reported they lived abroad year before, 96,000 are mexican, compared to 76,000 indians. let us hear from lawrence calling from the nation's capital, been in the country over 20 years. caller: good morning. i have quite a complicated history of my immigration status. i was born in germany, my mother was born in latvia. my sister was born also in munich during world war ii. my mother ended up working for the german army because my

maternal grandmother and grandfather separated because he was a lot via an officer -- i am trying to verify this, was responsible for killing 5000 to 6000 people working for the nazis. they had a choice, my mother told me they could be deported to siberia or answer hitler's call to come to the fatherland, which they did. my mother also worked -- she joined the resistance. but she saw people get shot in the head for being suspected as spies, try to trick her because in lafayette they could speak russian and german -- in latvia they could speak russian and german and french. we came here as refugees.

my sister's father was a greek german, he was in the german army. i am a brown baby, i am a love child. we came to america as refugees under the last opportunity in december 1956, we went to the logan airport. i kind of claim massachusetts as my homestay stay under those circumstances. we then came to d.c. in 58. host: that is quite a story. we lost lawrence, apologize on that. the line dropped. but thank you for getting through. also in the nation's capital is drawn, go ahead. caller: hello, good morning. my family immigrated 1980 from afghanistan.

we came because of the ussr invasion and communist regime. the russian army, the soviet army had done a military intervention. anyone who would accept communism was harassed or killed. my father lived in a place called little america, the americans built a city. my father was an engineer, he was educated by in american built engineering school. his neighbor was taken away, his classmate and neighbor. the next day, he left. he did not want to be next because he did not want to accept communism. we were fortunate the u.n.

program allowed us to seek asylum and refuge, we came with six people. many other families from my hometown followed suit. i just want to say that believe me when even if there was no war , my father would not have reached its full potential and afghanistan. america allowed us to reach a much higher potential. my father was an engineer, worked for an american company. my mother was a teacher. we contribute to this economy. i do not want to take up too much time, but for all the afghans that have come after us, we all went to connecticut. we worked hard. we were happy to contribute to the american economy. nothing can get done without people, there is no magic.

we need people in america, for any project big or small. host: how old were you when you came to the u.s.? caller: two years old. host: going to kirk and oklahoma, in the country less than 10 years. tell us how and why you came. caller: i am originally from jamaica. i first came here in 2007, i came on a visa. i got deported in 2015. host: why? caller: my green card was taken away. i tried to fight it, i was in immigration custody for three years. nevertheless, i spent six years in jamaica, gave up my green card he had i am here actually

over a year ago. may 5, actually. i the 10th, i have a job. i am an engineer, i am grateful for that. nevertheless, it is a hard process and a lot of people do not know -- i would say this to the jamaican who called earlier who said she was in line and came here, i spent three years in the immigration system. a lot of people do not know this. a lot of jamaicans come to america just on a visa. the sister not expire, but a lot of people overstated. -- overstayed.

there are a lot of people doing that, they would not have the opportunity -- i was in the line for six years to come back here. everybody needs the opportunity and make use of it. you know who comes to clean? immigrants, i do not see white americans or black americans. i am living in a state that is very anti-immigration. those same people when they dirty their offices --

host: glad you were in the country. next in pennsylvania, hello. caller: hello, i'm so happy to be able to talk to you today. i am probably the oldest immigrant that is called insofar, i'm 84 years old. i came at the age of 13 in 1951 with my parents and my brother. we were part of the first wave of immigrants after world war ii. i was born in yugoslavia. my father and i were born in the same town, in different countries. i am german, but from yugoslavia , which is serbia right now. it was world war i, i was born

after world war i. the part that we were born in, it became yugoslavia. i was in the concentration camp, we escaped and we were very happy to be able to come to the united states. we lived in austria for four years. for my family, america has truly been the land of opportunity. my brother became an engineer, i became a teacher of german. i'm interested to find out what other people think. i want to tell you when people complain about illegal

immigrants, why do people come in legally? we had no choice to come illegally because we had to cross an ocean. there is no ocean to cross so when people are desperate, they do not care that it might be dangerous because we were in a concentration camp and escaped from there. we heard people being shot at the border. we did not care. host: we appreciate your story and glad you got your cash you got through -- we appreciate your story and we are glad you got through. there is more ahead on "washington journal" up next senior fellow washington post comments henry olson talking

about campaign 2024 and the future of the republican party. document three film maker michael kerr will be here talking about his new pbs frontline film looks at the rise in influence of supreme court justice clarence thomas and his wife ginni thomas. ♪ ♪ >> tonight on q&a long time syndicated columnist thomas show sourcebook a watchman in the night looking back at originalism and describes how politics has changed over the years. >> we never had a divorce president or president married to somebody who had been divorce. general ford then reagan then we

got -- tolerated clinton. now we've gotten to a point where trump is at wife number three or four in all the accusations made against them. i think of a certain point character overcomes everything else and i am not supporting him in the next election. i hope someone younger and better character qualities gets the nomination. >> cal thomas and his book tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span q&a. you can listen to q&a and our podcast on our free c-span now pp. in democracy does not just look like this -- a healthy democracy does not just like this but this were americans can see democracy at work. i republic drive. -- i republic drives.

from the nation's capital to wherever you are, the opinion that medicine most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. >> if you are enjoying booktv sign up for newsletter using the qr code on the screen. to receive a schedule programs

along with all the discussions and more book tv every sunday c-span2 or anytime online at booktv.org. television for serious readers. >> "washington journal" continues. host: henry lawson with us. he senior fellow with the ethics and public policy center. we are here to talk about campaign 2024 and presidential race and the future of the republican party. tell us about the ethics and public policy center. what is the mission? who funds your work? guest: it is formed with more perspective and we have a host of scholars doing work across the field from working with hhs to looking at the challenges big

tech faces or educational standards. host: recent columns you wrote. what drives you to write? is it the latest topic of today are focus on issues -- or are you focus on faith morality issues? guest: i focus on american politics and challenges of populism and changing social norms are conservatives. i get attracted to topics that touch on those and i also add commentary on things of the day that are too important to ignore like the debt ceiling. host: let's talk about the cnn town hall. guest: it was a big win for the former president, not may be for cnn. host: what do you think -- was it a a when -- was it a win for

other supporters? guest: the got to see a person and remind them of someone who was truculent, somebody who remains in denial about what happened in the election of 2020 and got to see somebody who remains in many ways a figure that is not seem to recognize the rule of law. those are reasons why republicans are behind the former president and they had all of the on display wednesday night. host: it is early. the former president leaves in polling numbers to get the nomination. guest: absolutely. no one doubted he has a core of oil supporters but -- loyal

supporters but polls can show a big lean over everyone else. but when they take out the other candidates and narrow it down to two or three, the other candidates go up. that suggests this a high floor and low ceiling his supporters drops to 40% over the course of a campaign that suggests that his ceiling jobs and that is the path for desantis or haley or anyone else. host: does the verdict last week in the defamation case, does that move the needle at all? guest: short-ter n long term, it could be the typical republican voter is not focusing on every word the

people are saying. there is a reason why it polls in both parties in early stages of the off year shall candidates with high name modification leading and they tend to lack. rudy giuliani was leading in 2007. he did not do well at all in 2008. that is the opening for someone like desantis and expected future indictment, like in the carol trial. marginal voters will take that into account in later part of the year. host: let's talk about democratic voters are those who lean democratic in recent poll, most democrats want the party to nominate somebody other than biden. could it say that -- 58% say that.

independents say 78% rather see another nomination other than the current president. guest: this is a consistent showing in paul's. democrats alike the job biden is doing. they will vote for him over trump. they will like somebody else. they're concerned about his age, his health. this gives an opening for somebody more serious than robert f. kennedy, jr. to get into the race in summer to offer themselves as the alternative. i do not expect pricing to be established figure i governor newsom of california. but if i were a young, ambitious progressive who wanted to become a national figure and be the person would get 40% of the vote against the sitting president and become a serious player for the next presidential race, i

would look seriously at a late summer entry. host: our guest henry olson, senior fellow at the ethics and public policy center, a regular commonness at washington post. -- column -- we welcome your cause and promise as well. here are the lines. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. before we came out i mentioned the event yesterday in iowa for former president canceled because of tornado watch. there was to be delinked potential candidates -- dueling republican candidates with desantis in iowa. here is some of his comments. [video clip]

>> they hope is both iowa and florida show strong leadership can defeat the left but there is no substitute for victory. we must reject culture of losing that is infected are party in recent years. it's time for excuses is over. -- the time for excuses is over. we have to demonstrate the courage to lead and when. if you make 2024 a referendum on joe biden and his failures and provide a positive alternative for the future of the country, republicans will win across the board. if we do not do that, if you get distracted, focused the election on the past, then i think democrats are going to beat us again. i think it will be difficult to recover from that defeat. i used to think our country was locked and loaded, nothing can

go wrong in a free society, but freedom is fragile. if you have lived in the last four years, you know that. there were states that shut churches while allowing liquor stores to operate. we saw encourages on freedom i would not have thought possible even six years ago. host: that is ron desantis from last night. he talked about a culture of losing. who is he addressing? guest: donald trump as someone who lost the 2020 election, he lost the popular vote in 2016. republicans lost control of house in 2018. his candidates almost uniformly lost in 2022 underperforming republican baseline. he's referring to donald trump and i expect he will refer to him by name as they move further in campaign. host: do you think he has

established the leadership, ron desantis, to show him as a national leader and ready to take on the mantle of republican candidate? guest: i think he has done as well as any governor can do. he has legislative agenda that was passed by the legislature. we'll hear more about over the next few months? no governor can do things with respect to foreign policy or national economic policy, which are serious challenges for anyone who wants to be president, but he has done as good as a governor can do to set himself up for the top job. host: what is your view of his fundraising ability? guest: he's coming into the race with a lot of money saved from his governor's race. some major donors deciding they want to sit out right now. he has strong fundraising campaign.

that to think about presidential nomination is the only race in america where you get so much free media, television, radio, internet, print that spending does not matter as much. spending matters but candidate like desantis, candidate like donald trump in 2016 can get millions dollars more out of the free media they make it out of their own paid advertising. yes to prove himself a master as trump has i getting his message across free media. host: free media topic is interesting. after cnn there was discussion about, with the former president, should we show donald trump dissipating. what is your view on that? guest: they should not show

every event donald trump is participating in. they were not do it for every other candidate. in 2016, it was unusual and they should not repeat it. he is a serious candidate. need to cover him and the people who are arguing on some sort of blanket news discussion, somebody they do not like, there is a distortion of freedom, and it is something the american people do not deserve. they deserve to hear that man we know they should not make a special effort to put him forward the other candidates. host: are forced -- chris of independent line from florida. caller: good morning. i hope you do not cut me off could have the guest will not like what i say. first of all, he is biased. i am independent.

i sent $10 to bernie sanders because of health care. i have to say i am disgusted with the state of the media, and democratic party. i watch 2000 mules last night. everybody should watch that. i did not agree with the statements made by people like him that the watch -- people should disregard those two publications because they are bias and spreading propaganda. if we cannot get to the truth, there is no hope in our elections, they are in dire straits. anyone watches the documentary they will see the mules were tracked on the phone. there's a reason for someone to go from ballot box the ballot

box stuffing ballots at 3:00 in the morning over and over again taking pictures to get paid. host: we will get a response. guest: i know there are people who believe in election fraud conspiracy. with respect to 2000 meals, there has been discussion that geo-tracking locator use are not accurate enough to pinpoint the individuals involved to the specific locations of the ballot box. they had to take a look at common sense. there are patterns to each election. certain areas turn out in certain amounts in the same pattern from election to election. you do not see massive increases or changes in vote share in favor of president biden in the places that are alleged to be victims of fraud. i have looked at this. with the pennsylvania, a

perfect example. there is no early voting in 2016. there is massive early voting in 2020. the places they say they stopped the ballot box like in philadelphia, they were hereabouts, a smaller increase in terms margin, that biden did less well in philadelphia. look at the truth but the get the facts, not just what one side is putting out. host: joseph in california, democrats line. caller: good morning. [indiscernible] why don't y'all say the guy don't lie? trump is an important individual. the data does not lie.

[indiscernible] as a christian the people do not understand the mercy of god and have no compassion. in this context, i proposing a solution that all public officials, not term limits, -- [indiscernible] you are using the word of god. you are corrupt. until we stand here and look at the world right side up --

[indiscernible] host: a little tough to hear you. guest: the term limits their people that talk about that. term limits have been an issue in the past. we have a constitutional amendment that prevents anyone from having more than two complete terms as president pass after franklin roosevelt won the four term. as a result, that means presidents cannot have disorder personality cults people worry about after fdr and that was a good change people's republic of laws and debate. host: in florida on the republican line, henrietta. good morning. caller: hi. with regards -- [indiscernible]

host: sorry, you are breaking up. call back in if you can. trent in monroe, louisiana on the independent line. caller: henry, i'm going to be a little hard on you. you are one of my favorite c-span guest. i give you a homework assignment a few months ago. wonder if you ever got to it. especially because it looks like artificial intelligence issue size the other things we talked about last time. i'm curious about the ethics and public policy group. you guys have roman catholics, eastern orthodox, liberal

christians, conservatives -- has that affected your own prescient life, if that is not too personal? i remember talking to michael cromartie in 1990's and we talked about and leader of did this peacock, -- dennis peacock, is there a deeper part of henry olsen thinking about interlocking possibility along with others at the ethics and public policy center? you have this diverse group of christians and jews there. guest: appc is a wonderful place to work.

i do not talk about my personal faith a lot but it is pretty strong. it is not stronger over the years. when i'm talking to america and about modern america, i'm talking about a place with more diverse religious traditions and non-religious traditions. i do not refer and talk about my personal faith because i think it is important that we only take public policy forward in a way that interprets american barley traditions rather than particular faith traditions of different types. host: you wrote in washington post about another republican candidate, nikki haley, pay attention to nikki haley and republicans on how the talk about -- to talk about abortion. she had a speech they can't

notice from folks who are antiabortion activists. guest: yet understand if you are pro-life republican, and i am a pro-life republican, majority -- either focus on -- like the focus on the median voter. someone who i call weekly pro-choice, they support restrictions after the first trimester, they support some restrictions within the first trimester like parental notification for a minor but they do support a right to an abortion within the first trimester. i say weekly because they have historically not voted on that. and will -- any pro-life leader has to understand that the person you need to move. america will be pro-life country

as i with nikki haley does talk about abortion in a way chemical to those voters well uploading pro-life ideas. people that are pro-life have to understand that just because roe v. wade has been overturned does not mean there is this popular wave of pro-life choice sentiment going to sweep. we have decades of work before us to talk to americans and say the unborn entity within the woman is in fact a child even in early stages and deserving of protection of the law against taking of his life. for take us a long time to do -- it's going to take us a long time to do. host: in this piece you wrote, you did a comparison with nikki haley did as governor with

confederate flag controversy on the statehouse grounds. how do you think that helps describe her potential leadership as a president? guest: she wants to use that as an example of genuine leadership , someone who can take a strong position, work to change minds and adopt a new policy that has been headed -- hitherto unthinkable. there is a good example that is a fraught discussion for. there been discussions to remove the flak from capitol grounds. nikki haley took that own and it happened almost effortlessly. i'm not going to endorse her or say everything of that is the only reading of that, clearly it is helped by the tragedy of the shooting in charleston. but it is something she wants to

use as an example and i think it is a good if not a example. host: we welcome your calls and comments. philadelphia next, horace on the democrats line. make sure you mute your volume on your television. caller: yes. i guess you can call it a comment.

this make sense to you? does this sound like an american party? republicans are full of hate. what is your opinion on that? guest: a kind of worries me about the future of american democracy. the things i worry about most is the rise of intense hatred on both sides and there is data from the pew research center that talks about partisan to city that's going to massively the past few years on both sides. have a more democrats really hate republicans and a half or more republicans hate democrats.

you cannot have a public we are filled by aid because -- hate. what you have to do is have lawyer opposition that you can agree that you dislike and distrust the other person, they are an american, was that is gone you cannot have a public both sides engaging in hateful partisan rhetoric that makes the left possible -- less possible. we need leadership that turns it down. leadership that calms us toward lincoln called us to better angels of our nation. host: miriam in florida on the republicans line. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to comment on the

prior caller that said she had what she thousand meals in the gentleman here said -- 2000 mules and the gentleman said tracking this technology was not accurate but they used it for january 6. you cannot have it both ways. the washington post and new york times actively concealing and suppressing the truth. i can give you a few examples. today the headline in washington post says there is no surge at the southern border. this man talks about conspiracies, election fraud conspiracies. here are a few washington post peddled for years. russian collusion hoax. in cahoots with the cia and fbi.

lab leak theory, you are not allowed to talk about it. you cannot question it. the covid vaccine, that would prevent transmission and infection until i didn't -- it did in. jussie smollett hoax. they believe that hook line and sinker. there is one other example and this has been repeated on c-span. by the president and media over and over with is police died on january 6 from islands, mattie -- violence. not a single police officer died on january 6. viewers who believe that go look it up in search of information because there's only one person that died from violence. that was ashli babbitt an unarmed veteran killed by police officer

shooting her. host: henry also as a guest columnist with the washington post. guest: i'm sorry she takes issue with a lot of the posts news reporting. i'm an opinion, this -- colum nist. i often write things my colleagues disagree with. ask you to take a look at my work and judge it on something else. host: do editors say we do not want a piece? guest: no. i never had it piece spike the added source. -- the editors at the washington post. i am a conservative. they know i am a conservative and they publish. host: i want to play you and add by liz cheney opposing donald

trump. i want to get your thoughts on where liz cheney fits now in the republican party in 2024. >> donald trump the only president in american history refused to guarantee peaceful transfer of power. he lost the election and he knew it. he betrayed millions of americans by telling them the election was stolen. he ignored the rulings of dozens rather than accept his defeat, immobilized the mob to come to washington in march on the capital. then he watched on television while the mob attacked law enforcement, invaded the capital, and hunted the vice president. he reviews for three hours to tell the mob to leave. there's never been a greater dereliction by any president. trumpets warn his plan for january 6 were illegal. he did not care and today he celebrates this.

donald trump has proven is unfit for office. donald trump is a risk to america -- america can never take again. host: that is the voice of liz cheney. what do you see as a role in 2024? more of that? supporting other candidates in the party? guest: she must be someone who brings it down donald trump. but she needs to think about is how do you communicate that message to republicans that the sorta think you need to deal with republicans is to overcome some of their suspicions of establishment narratives. that piece is powerful. the ad is powerful but it is largely powerful people who do not have those suspicions. watery reverie -- who already

agree. try to change minds are republicans, you need to get inside their minds and talk about things and overcome that suspicion. one of my frustrations as a columnist, it remains no republicans who have seriously made the factual base case that election was not a soul in. they just -- was not stolen, they just assume. for the median republican voter, that is not the case. they do think there was a possibility the election was stolen. if liz cheney spend money pointing out how it could not have been stolen, she can begin to get inside republicans minds to turn them around, and wants that happens, they will come to her conclusion. and you engage republicans where they are, you're just talking to yourself and you're not going to have a lot of effect.

host: in massachusetts, harry on the democrats line. caller: yes, i think equivalency between calling both parties -- the republican side is the insurrection side which is trying to demolish democracy. the democrats just did not fight for themselves and that is my problem with them. i wish republicans would stop calling themselves pro-life. they are not pro-life. they are pro-birth. afterwords, where are they? guest: one and the things a lot of pro-life people are doing is understanding it is an argument used against them for many times and what they want to do is provide additional services for women who give birth.

they want additional financial support. they would additional counseling support. you see that in a number of proposal set up in advance in congress by pro-life legislators. but may have been years ago snatcher today. -- what may have been true 40 years ago is not true today. pro-life people need to talk about compassion's of how to deal with mothers in crisis and when they need support, we need to be there for them. host: the latest allstate efforts abortion must come from north carolina. the governor vetoes abortion limits. a bill that would've banned nearly all abortions after 12 weeks of pregnancy. guest: nigel shows -- that shows polls in of that show that sort of man --

in the that soda band has support where week pro-choice voter is fine with the ban after the first trimester, not within the first trimester, 10% of abortions are so can only take place after the 12th week period. you're talking about a bill that would have 90% of abortions to continue to occur. some of those post-public abortions will be done within the 12 week period. democratic governor still vetoes the bill because if you look at polls, the overwhelming majority primary voters do not favor that proposal. you governor polis you find half democrats say they want no end

which is why democrat will be told about -- veto a bill like that. you see more democrats like that catering to their base rather than to the median voter. host: joe on the republican line here in nation's capital. high, joe. caller: good morning. polls show vast majority of american people do not want another biden trump choice. it seems to me there are a couple of ways that can be avoided but requires changes in the nominating process. the system we have now requires that you only obtain a plurality of the vote in primary to get all the states delegates to the national convention. it is set up so majority required and necessary runoff,

that we would not have situation where 30% candidate can dominate each of the primaries. secondly there ought to be close primaries where the opposite party cannot enter and subvert the process by choosing the weakest candidate it was like to impose in november. guest: thank you for those comments. the democratic party -- primary process is a wonderful resort to view the different process. states have wide differences. some are proportional. 1% of the vote and you get one percent of the delegates. some art when and take all -- are win and take all. for republicans, it is all over

the map. it will be interesting to see what we can party adopt rules over the next five months that will establish what those procedures are going forward. they can change those without state laws. we will find out by october where they follow the recommendation and establish a proportional system that you cannot get hundred percent of the delegates with a plurality of votes or they stick with the current system? democrats have a one-size-fits-all. every state as it is the same think. his are proportional. -- it is all proportional. host: they change up the lineup for 2024? as they have any effect in primary? guest: i have a different view. i did not think there is a whole lot the momentum going on in elections. i do think early primaries help

establish who the favorites are in different voting groups. by having south kalama gophers, you get to see who is the favorite -- south carolina go first committee to see who is the favorite. new hampshire will presumably go second and that tends to be a state where white liberals dominate. i did not think what happens in south carolina will the fact that light liberals do in new hampshire just has the person who wins iowa in republicans tend to be the favorite of religious conservatives, there has been no example since george w. bush with a person who is a religious conservative pavers and close the window nomination because there's no such thing as momentum -- favors and goes on to win the nomination because there's no such thing as momentum. host: carol in tyler, texas. good morning. caller: good morning and thank you both.

i have a comment in a question. i noticed over the past couple of years increasing the tax on the media. it goes on all the time. i do not think people understand free press is the main foundation of democracy in the lee terry that down, we tear down our own system. -- and when we tear that down, we tear down our own system. that concerns me very much. i think people need to realize free press is a part of democracy. my question is there -- is a possible a person with dictatorship tendencies can get into office and actually change

things to where they were in for life like putin? thank you and i appreciate both of you. a free press and your knowledge. host: thanks. guest: free press is crucial to our democracy but i want to expand that when freedom of the press was written to the k that is it every bit as important to democracy is the ability to write what they want.

host: with respect to threats on democracy, you do not enter democracy without force. you do not and i democracy in which you are willing to suppress your political opponents. i do not think there is any ability of people to do that in this country at this time. i do not think you will find a president who could go in and have some client -- congress change the law so that they can never get out of office or suppressing freedom of speech or freedom of the press. this order thing to end democracy involves application of force, shutting things down, jailing people, i do not think americans are there and i do not think they are going to be there. host: her concerns in the fact is past president's use of executive action by the

president have become much more prominent. guest: that i find troublesome but it is not the end of democracy. i think there needs to be curtailed weather by the legislature or by congress, reasserting his past power by the court saying executive action that is not genuine, legislating rather than executing the laws needs to stop. that is not the ending of democracy i think the caller was talking about. host: tom in ohio, republican caller. caller: you made a statement you had to get inside of peoples has. if you stop and think back, i am in my 80's, the chinese try to get in our heads during the korean conflict.

it seems like that is what you people are trying to do. guest: what i mean by that is persuasion tries to move somebody from one place to another. if i did not understand who i am talking to, i'm not going to be able to move them from one place to another. that is as true power talking to a child or talking to a friend as it is of a political party trying to talk to 150 million voters. i do not think it means anything insidious. if you want to persuade somebody you have to understand where they are to so arouse. a lot of times in politics people make arguments expecting to move people that i could do not address how they think. they should not be surprised people do not move. host: henry also in columns regulate in the washington post. we appreciate you coming by this morning.

host: still ahead on "washington journal", coming up we talk about new frontline documentary, we talked to michael kirk, the filmmaker taking a look at the rise in influence of supreme court justice clarence thomas and his relationship with his wife. but first we open up our phone lines for a bit here in open forum so you can wait in on any issue we talk about. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. ♪ >> be up-to-date in publishing with booktv podcasts about books with current nonfiction book

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interesting highlights of key coverage. use it anytime online at c-span.org. ♪ >> c-span now free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what is happening in washington ivan on demand. keep up with today's biggest events with hearing from u.s. congress, white house evidence, the courts, campaign and more from the world politics all at your fingertips. also stay current with latest episodes of "washington journal" and find scheduling information for c-span tv network and c-span radio plus a variety of compelling podcasts. c-span now available at the apple store and will apply. download it for free today. c-span now your front row seat to washington. ♪ >> at the democracy does not just look like this, it looks

like this. americans in democracy at work. citizens are informed. get informed straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word for the nation's capital -- from the nation's capital to whoever you are. the opinion that matters the most is your own. c-span powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: open forum a chance to call in and talk about items in the news, political or public policy issues, you care about. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. we showed you comments from ron desantis yesterday in iowa. the donald trump event canceled

due to tornado watch but will show you president by the speaking yesterday here in nation's capital but first let's get to your calls and comments in open forum. pamela leesburg, virginia. caller: hello. i want to say it is a shame we have so much violence in the country with guns. you should buy a telescope instead of a gun. look at the stars and learn about math, science, and get on the nasa website. you have a lot of education and stem programs and the way i look at people ivanka trump, -- who vote trump. they need to talk to a psychiatrist. they need to talk to a psychiatrist. that is my only comment. host: stephen in florida on the

republican line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i had two quick points. both parties seem to be missing the fact that, most voters do not care about a candidate disposition or character, they think about policy. they are concerned with gas being below $2.50 a gallon if possible. the disposition does not matter. the second point, i do not understand the hypocrisy on how we are supposed to have so much open heart for the 80,000 people coming across the border every week but then on the same token we can condone abortion and not have any concern about that. i've never understood the dynamics of that. love to have open heart for the people -- we have to have open

heart for people crossing the border but we did not care aborting unborn children. host: in tampa, florida on the republican line is kevin. caller: good morning. my comments were regard to the guests we had earlier. a lot of people are down on president trump. president nixon had a number of people go to jail because they try to spy on democratic candidate. back in the 70's. i want to know how many people went to jail for spying on donald trump's campaign. can you tell me that? host: i did not think anybody did. i'm not sure exactly what you are referring to but i did not think anybody has. great barry, massachusetts john

on the democrats line. turned down your volume and go ahead. one more time. john, you are on. caller: hello. i have not watched c-span readily for years. i have a question about c-span it itself. it seems it has change direction since brian lamb was your ceo 20 years ago. i used to see a wide spectrum of speakers, just -- guests, and video recorded compasses but now it is mostly -- conferences but not looks like right wing think tanks.

what is going on there? host: we still operate by the same principles. we invite guest on this program from all sides of the political debates from think tanks on the many sides of issues and coverage of political parties a very straight -- stripe were possible on the network. president biden in washington speaking at howard university. white supremacy is the most dangerous terrorist threat, biden tells howard graduates. here are the comments from the president. [video clip] >> we know american history has not always been a fairytale. from the start it has been a constant push and pull for more than 240 years between the best of us, the american ideal that we are created equal, and the

worst of us, the harsh reality that racism has long time as a part. it is a battle that is not really over. but on the best days enough of us have the guts and the heart to stand up for the best in us, to choose love over eight, unity, progress over retreat. stand up against white supremacy. the most dangerous terrorist threat to our homeland. [applause] i'm not saying it is because i met and hbcu, i stayed wherever i go -- i am at and hbcu, i say it wherever i go.

to confront the ongoing assault on our election, that assault came just as you cast your first ballots in 2022, record turnout's to deliver historic progress. i made it clear that america, americans of all backgrounds, have an obligation to call out political violence that has been unleashed and emboldened. host: all of yesterday's event available on c-span.org or the c-span now mobile app. it is open forum. trish in seattle on the democrats line. caller: good morning, everyone. i would like to give a shout out to all the mothers out there, especially military mothers, and then for the mothers who have lost their children due to gun violence. this has got to stop.

this is got to stop so my heart goes out to all of them. thank you. host: jeff in spring hill, florida on our democrats line. hi. caller: hi. he had a guest on their they had made the comment that there is nobody in a position to overthrow democracy. in this country and that is about as wrong a statement as i have ever heard. you have an entire political party that is treasonous to america. it is not care their leader -- they do not care that their leader like osama bin laden to attack america, so did donald trump. if you support him, you are a traitor to america. the proof is there. if you do not want to admit it

to yourself, that just makes you more of a traitor than anything else. i cannot understand why the republican party cannot find some patriots that would actually stand up and say, donald trump is a traitor to america. the only one who ever did, it was liz cheney. they ran her out of the park. host: to the republican line next. we will hear from clifford in oceanside, california. caller: yes. thank you very much. traitor. the traitorous regime, the current regime now in power, the biden administration. i do not understand these democrats that do not understand that they are not the party of yesteryear. they are the party that has been insidiously brought forth into

the socialist, communist agenda. that is a fact. you will find a lot of them have ties to the chinese communist party. i hate to say it. yes. our republican -- our republic is in peril, not because of donald j. trump, who i would say has done a miraculous job than the current president. i mean, all you have to do is look and see. you are better off four years ago then you are now. it is a simple, logical question. donald trump, not only was he a good president, but he kept his present -- his promises, unlike this president, who has let our borders open for the millions of so-called potential future democratic voters.

why, i do not know why anyone would vote democrat. host: all right. on the news this morning from the new york times. germany announces its biggest military aid package yet for ukraine. germany on saturday sent the strongest signal yet of its commitment of backing ukraine against its battle of russia. armored vehicles and substantial air defense systems in its largest package for kyiv. the package totaling about $2.95 billion amounted to roughly as much as germany's total military aid to ukraine since the war began in february, 2022. next to massapequa, new york. eric is on the democrats line. caller: hi. i was independent line, i am sorry. i wanted to sum up why so many people are so strong for trump. do you know that the lady that accused him of rape, there is an

email that has circulated that when she was looking for a program to watch on sunday, somebody was commenting and she says, oh, i love the apprentice. how does somebody love the person that raped her? that is why people love donald j. trump, the best president in my lifetime. i am 63, that we have ever had. i just want to comment. happy mother's day to all the lovely mothers, god bless. be sure to bless them up. thank you. host: next is david, los angeles, california. caller: how are you doing? i wanted -- this too thousand meal video is a fake video. no outlet will play it for fear of being sued. one of the main characters in the movie sued for fraud and

defamation, has already won. or, is going to win. two georgia election workers, ruby freeman and shane moss, already sued oem and rudy giuliani and won the lawsuit. this voter fraud conspiracy is completely debunked. rudy giuliani and susan powell, the two attorneys for trump, lost their law licensees for bringing fake voter fraud lawsuits. the list of these things goes on and on and on. the arizona -- in arizona, this group of trump supporters did a hand recount. they found that biden actually had more votes. finally, let me add this. the mueller report, the russian

investigation was not a hoax or a conspiracy theory. if you read the mueller report summary, multiple instances of contacts with russians. several people went to jail for lying about meeting with russians. the trump supporters just keep going on and on. so, hopefully they will do the investigation and find out the truth. host: thanks, david. to our republican line next in alabaster, alabama. good morning to darrell. caller: hello, can you hear me? host: yes, we can. go ahead. caller: two points. i would think biden saying white privilege is the biggest --[indiscernible] that would be my first point. second point, --[indiscernible] host: darrell, your signal is cutting in and out. i am sorry about that. if you call back, try to get through.

we will get you back on. houston, texas, john on the republican line. go ahead. caller: -- host: john in houston, you are on the air. caller: good morning. if i can make two quick remarks. first of all, i was a ballot worker during the presidential election. i can tell you from first-hand knowledge that there was a lot of fraud. a lot of fraud. one quick example would be, i saw ballots that know whether entry except for joe biden, the whole ballot was empty except for joe biden being checked off. now, to my main point. i am very much pro-life. but, i would like to see the argument on abortion framed in

this manner. since 1973, we have lost 64 million american babies through abortion. have these children been allowed to live, how many of those would-be presidents? how many of those would-be plumbers? how many of those would-be teachers? how many of those would-be police officers? every profession you can name short of rap singers, we are in desperate need of. with social -- when social security was created back in the 1940's, it was created on the premise there were six to seven u.s. taxpayers supporting social security. right now, within our lifetime,

within five years, social security is predicted to fail because there are not enough taxpayers supporting the recipients. host: all right, john. we will move on to denise in pennsylvania. open forum. caller: kind of piggybacking on the previous caller. my complaint is we are not discussing the fact the population is geriatric in age in the united states and other countries. host: right. and, what is your -- caller: we need immigrants. we have 400,000 nurses coming, doctors coming in 10 years. we do not have enough volunteers for our armed forces. we do not have enough young. we need immigrants. host: thanks for that. we will go to leeann in michigan

on our democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning. listen. i am a teacher from detroit, michigan. let me tell you something. i am looking for integrity. i am looking for character. i am looking for ethics, because our kids are seeing this. i cannot discuss more and immigration and all of that. right now, these kids are suffering. this behavior. we've got gun violence. we've got people on tv saying it is ok. what am i supposed to tell my students? i cannot even speak about abortion and this and that. what about safety? what about lives? they are our future. look at what they are preventing from our future. i cannot talk about all of those other things and topics. what about just straight up character and integrity for these students? host: what grade level you teach? caller: i teach junior high.

let me tell you, they are on their way. they only have four more years. i have eighth-graders adding ready to go to high school that cannot read. they do not know their multiple occasion. they have write ups, they are getting suspended. what are we going to do about the kids? they are the future. these people in congress are on their way to retire. what am i going to tell these kids about integrity when they see that our leaders do not have it? what am i supposed to do as an educator? host: in your experience, how have the last few years 6 -- last few years affected this lack of character in students? how has it changed? caller: it has changed because the respect is gone. there was no respect. it has changed. people want to blame covid a lot. it is not covid. they lost two years, but what about parenting? what about our leaders caring? they are fussing and fighting and the young people are

slipping away. they are half coming to school. two years ago before covid, our free lunch was -- our qualifications for free lunch was already 5%. this year, it is 75%. what is that telling us? what is that telling us about our demographic? we went from 35% that qualified for lunch, now we are at 75%. that is the issue for me. host: how long have you been teaching? caller: 15 years. host: i am glad you got through this morning on open forum. good luck with your kids. talc go, texas is next. billy is on the republican line. caller: hello, appreciate you taking my call. this is to the teacher that just spoke. she is a very wise lady and what she said is very true. also, to the democrat lady that spoke earlier about dunn's -- guns.

our freedom was founded by guns, or we would not even have freedom now. that is the number one thing. you think you can -- you are the only one -- democrats are the only one that have got the right to say anything about other people. if i voted for a man and you can call him a president if you want to, but i am no son of a gun for 15 years. you can call him a president, i would not call him nothing because he is a man that has opened our borders. lady, you're fixing to see and you are going to be wishing that you had a gun because your borders is wide open and is all kinds of people walking across the border right now. thank you. host: on to tom in pennsylvania, democratic caller. caller: i was calling. that guy that mentioned cheney

wanted to get into the republicans -- he thought that was some kind of conspiracy or some thing. i think everything he watches on tv is nothing but propaganda probably because he has only one viewpoint. he does not know the whole story because he does not want to hear the whole story. if he listened to what happened, he would know the republicans -- i am sorry, i am unhandled. host: you are doing fine, tom. caller: he only hears one side of the story. it is all propaganda. there is no bipartisan, republican forum like fox news and those other -- tucker carlson, he tells it how it is.

he tells you what you want to hear, he tells you what they tell you to tell him because he does not even believe what he says and that is the facts. host: appreciate your call. thanks for all your calls in this open forum on "washington journal." documentary filmmaker michael kirk is next on the program. his new film is out, it looks at the rise and influence of supreme court justice clarence thomas and his wife, ginny. ♪ >> next week on the c-span networks. the house and senate continue off the floor talks on the nations debt limit, the house plans to consider several police and law enforcement bills while the senate continues work on president biden's judicial nominations. tuesday, the senate inking committee will hold a hearing on recent bank failures with testimony from gregory becker, former ceo of silicon valley bank, scott shea, former chair

and cofounder of signature bank and eric howel former of signature. tuesday, defense secretary lloyd austinsecretary of state antony blinken and commerce secretary gina raimondo testify before the senate appropriations committee on u.s. security, competitiveness and the future of u.s. china relations. watch next week live on the c-span networks or on c-span now, our free mobile video app and head over to c-span.org for scheduling information or to stream video live or on-demand any time. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. ♪ >> nonfiction book lovers, c-span has a number of podcasts for you. listen to best-selling, nonfiction authors and influential interviewers on the after words podcast and on q and a year wide-ranging conversations with nonfiction authors and others who are making things happen. poconos plus -- book notes plus

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philadelphia by michael kirk, the rector, cowriter and coproducer of the new frontline documentary, welcome to washington journal. guest: great to be here, thanks for having me. host: what got you interested to begin with on justice clarence thomas and his wife, ginny? guest: about six months ago, somebody told me they made a reference and said thomas court. i said on a what do you mean, thomas court? i thought it was roberts court. they said, no, no, no. if you look closely, the cards have lined up, the population of the court is such and the endurance of clarence thomas as a person writing concurrences and dissents over the last three decades. it has lined up for clarence thomas to be in charge. he has waited a long time. this is the moment.

so, we started to dig into it. it is a thomas court. there are profound implications about that, which we can obviously talk about. we started to make our film. we look at the life story of clarence and ginny. the unlikely story of the two of them coming together and becoming what somebody in the film calls the it couple of the far right in washington. we said to ourselves, ok, we will make a 90 minute film. then, all of the information comes out about harlan crow and other gifts that have been given to clarence and ginny thomas and our film expanded to two hours. you've got the whole package inside this film. the back story, the reality of the court, the reality of the lives of these two markable individuals. that is really where we have found ourselves earlier this week when the film started to air on streaming and on cbs.

-- pbs. host: how did their story begin? how did they first begin to know each other? guest: they were at an anti-affirmative action conference in new york city. ginny was an attorney for the national chamber of commerce, she was very big into not getting equal pay for women and other issues like that, really contrarian issues. clarence himself was the head of the eeoc in the reagan administration, one of the rarer black people in the upper reaches of the reagan administration. that is another story we tell. how does clarence thomas find himself in that position? they met in new york, they share a cab. her version of the story is, she saw this incredibly powerful, attractive man. in the cap, she says to him, how can you work in the reagan administration -- she herself is

conservative -- how does a black man do it? he says, there are a lot of challenges and tribulations. he reaches into his wallet and pulls out prayer cards and says, i read these prayers to myself every day. that did it for ginny, who has a binary view of the world anyway. part of it is religious fervor against the other side, the democrats, the liberals, the progressives, whoever her forces are up against. that was it, a kismet moment in new york of all things with no irony intended, a anti-affirmative action conference is where they met and where they have been together ever since. host: i wonder after doing the film, you mentioned the colleague of yours saying it was the thomas court. after doing the film, you also view it as the thomas court and how much of an influence his wife, ginny, has been in that regard. guest: that is the question

about supreme court appointees appointed for life. almost everyone knows -- with very few rules, not even the rules of conduct and other things that apply to federal judges, the united states supreme court is relatively free , there is this idea everything should look and appear. there is the appearance it should be pretty good. for a long time, the institution of the supreme court has felt unsullied by it. the idea behind clarence and the longest-serving justice. ginny is such a close companion of his. they say all the time, we are each other's best friends. we discuss everything. the question is, if ginny is involved in things, it might be she is political, should he recuse himself especially around

january 6 where she is quite visible in the incursion into the capitol building? not that she was there, but she was part of the events when donald trump was speaking. the sense is, he -- maybe, probably, he should declare a potential conflict of interest if any of those cases come forward. but, he has said he will not. that on top of other lots of new charges that have been made about him and his unwillingness to not only talk about them, but recuse himself from any cases until they come forward. that is when people start to worry about and to begin, according to some polls, begin to lose faith in the sanctity of the supreme court. host: michael kirk is with us. the new documentary on clarence thomas and his wife, ginny, is

out on the front line at youtube channel, streaming on the pbs video app. the new document tree, clarence and ginny thomas, politics, power and the supreme court. we welcome your calls and comments at (202) 748-8000, that is the line for democrats. (202) 748-8001 four republicans. foreign dependency and others, (202) 748-8002. hi -- four independents and others, (202) 748-8002. the launching off point of clarence, what surprised me was his interest and participation in the black power movement at holy cross college in new england. before that, how did clarence collins wind up -- clarence thomas wind up at a school like holy cross? guest: affirmative action brought him to holy cross as it did in yale and to the supreme

court when george h w bush picked him to what -- to fill what was known as the black seat on the supreme court. even affirmative action in play there, that is one of the great ironies about justice thomas's profound dislike of affirmative action as an issue or a way to elevate minorities and others into positions of power or education and whatever. he gets to new england after a series of rejections in his life, which is so heartbreaking, that story on clarence thomas. the film spends a considerable amount of time trying to understand where his mind was. it is 1958, 1959, bobby kennedy has been murdered. martin luther king has been murdered. clarence thomas is in college

with 2000 students, catholic college, all male. 28 black students there as an affirmative action early-stage approach taken by holy cross. it is therefore the first time in his life where he has a cohort of friends who are also black. as a child, he was made fun of by the black kids. you can see why in the film. by the time he gets to holy cross, it is great for him to be with a group of black men. they are all in various stages of frustration and anger at america, at the american political world, their opportunities, the streets. the rage in the streets is strong i the police and protesters. clarence decides he loves the notion of the black panthers as a way to exercise his own anger,

or deal with it. he dresses like a panther, he wears the beret, he wears the combat boots. he wears the uniform. he finds an idol in all of this process, that is malcolm x. clarence gets the name clarence x on that experience. host: let's take a look -- let's take a portion of that document tree. here it is. [video clip] >> he definitely was inspired by the black panthers. he dressed like them. he talked like them. he had a beret and army fatigues and he had the army boots. he wore an afro. he was out there with everyone else. he had a group, he was not alone now. he became part of his group. i do not know if he had a well-formed, political philosophy before he got to holy cross. maybe he was simply going along,

but the year is 1968, 1969. gosh, i was there. the forces of conformity to a sense of outrage to fury, resistance, the throwing off of oppression by any means necessary, was very seductive. it was very compelling to many, many people. among whom was clarence thomas. he had a hero, malcolm x. >> by any means necessary, we want justice by any means necessary. we want equality by any means necessary. >> he had a poster of malcolm x in his dorm room. at one point, he had read all of his speeches. he could quote some of them by heart. he did pay attention to malcolm x. host: michael kirk, were you surprised as i assume some of us

may be about that part of justice thomas'background? guest: yes, and it is one part of the matrix of whatever you want to call it, the complications of clarence thomas'approach. he is very surprising in every step of the way as he veers from one side to another and begins to form his political ideology and his way of living and way of life. while -- he was a campus radical. he was also extremely against intermarriage between black people and white people. in the end, he would marry ginny . the back and forth, the pendulum swinging of clarence thomas' approach to life, the law and learning. all surprised me, as much as you could surprise anybody. like me, you think, oh, i know

the story. i had no sense of either clarence or ginny until we started to make this film several months ago. it takes months to make these things. the deeper we dug, the more i realized, oh, my gosh, this is a tremendously complicated figure we are trying to explain. host: michael kirk is the director of the new frontline documentary, clarence and ginni thomas, politics, power and the supreme court. we will play more from the documentary and a bit. we will get into the pro public of revelations, what you talk about some in the film as well. let's get to calls. first, clyde in atkin, minnesota. independent line. go ahead, clyde. caller: good morning. i hope i have time to get my thoughts through. this is going to be hard for me in some ways, as you will understand. i am a 75-year-old combat

vietnam veteran. in 19 69, i married an african-american lady. that does not make me an authority but it gives me insight into some things i experienced back in those times. clarence thomas definitely is, and still is, an angry black man. as you see him sitting around with all white, powerful man smoking their cigars, he is basically giving the middle finger to america. he could have done so much better and benefited from affirmative action, which is the reconstruction back after the civil war. but, affirmative action has been played down. i do not believe that the man has the character that you should have two be a supreme court justice. as he got a leg up and realized he was going to make it and make it pretty big, i think he snubbed his nose at his roots

and where he came from. marrying ginni thomas back in the day -- if a black man wearing -- married a white woman, whether she was drop dead gorgeous or not did not matter. if you married a white woman, that was status. that was another part of what was going on at that time. i think it was with clarence thomas. one other thing i would like to say. you take any average, 100 intelligent people today and school them in the constitution for a year, we could make better decisions than the supreme court is making today. this does not make me an authority on anything, but it does give me insight. i would put him in a category as far as angry black goes like bill cosby. host: michael kirk, if you want to respond in any way, go ahead. guest: it is the conundrum many

americans, especially once they learn parents thomas and ginni thomas stories -- clarence thomas and ginni thomas stories, they find themselves in the exact same place of scratching their head saying, wait a minute , he is supposed to act one way as a black man. he has come up from the hardest possible, most debilitating childhood i could imagine. there is a couple of other things that are horrible that could have happened. really, he had a rough road all the way up. he switched between all of these things trying to fit in, trying to be somebody who could be who he is and has come up with an amalgam of who he is that minimizes his blackness because of a lifetime of trouble being black. he freely has walked away from that over the last few decades. people who know him who are his friends from a child all the way up to now, there are people like

that all over this film -- they are just as surprised and astonished and scratching their heads as anybody could be. it is hard not to easily characterize clarence thomas, but he does not fit that easily into it. that is why you have to know his story and ginny's story to get a sense of, how do you really feel about what they are doing and how, in fact, he is determined and has been determined since his really difficult confirmation process against the anita hill allegations of sexual harassment at work. he has kept a list. he has, some say, engaged reveng in his jurisprudence. others say he is going his own route and he does not care what black people or liberals may think because he is a black man.

he should have a certain default position of somebody who was raised the way clarence was raised, he is determined to go another way and not let the fact he is black characterize where he stands on another -- on a number of issues that people might easily characterize him and drop them into a slot. that is not what clarence thomas is like. host: in a moment, we will show you a portion of how the partnership was forged between clarence thomas and his wife, ginny. barbara is in texas on the democrats line. you are on. caller: good morning. have not yet seen the documentary, but i am looking forward to doing so. i understand that harlan crow was an old friend from clarence thomas' youth. he approached him after he was seated on the supreme court. in contrast, a group of friends

from elena kagan sent a box of bagels. justice kagan had such a high, ethical -- refused to accept the box of bagels because it looks like a conflict of interest. what can you say about that? host: barbara brings up harlan crow. let's introduce the reporting of pro publica on the lavish gifts and vacations harlan crow gave to justice thomas and ginni thomas over the years. how does your documentary deal with those reports? guest: essentially, clarence thomas -- someone said this in our conversation this morning here. clarence thomas is in the company --let's do it this way. as a child, he viewed the world and himself in it as untouchable in america. he has been working against

climbing out of that untouchable status to get the equivalent of the highest caste in america. if we had -- what that meant in his life experience, you had to become extremely friendly with, or in his case, with the wealthy men. he gets there after's confirmation readings. he stops reading the new york times, the washington post, and relies for information about the world on two people. his wife, ginny, who tells him what is happening and what her take is. we know what her take is, very binary, black-and-white, evil and good. this might surprise a lot of people, he relied on rush limbaugh. he and rush become close friends over the decades. he officiates one of rush's marriages. it is from that world, the

portal through rush and other wealthy, white men that clarence finally arrives. he only makes something less than $300,000. i say only, because the people he is hanging out with our making $2 million or $3 million a year if you are a lawyer or more if you are harlan crow. he lives lavishly in a strange way, relying on the gifts of strangers, wealthy strangers, wealthy, white strangers like harlan crow. there is no doubt there are friends from clarence's perspective and apparently according to mr. crow, from his perspective, that there is the appearance problem. there is no obvious. quote quotes here. -- quid pro pro.

he has been in the company of lots of people who are friends of harlan crow, who have business before the court. there is a reason some people are beginning to say, we need to tighten the standards of -- sorry. host: what was the extent of the financial relationship between harlan crow and justice thomas such an open secret? it took the reporting of pro public a two reveal the extent of that. guest: i do not know how open a secret it was. they were seen together a lot. he flied on crowe's plane, sometimes to do business, give a speech. it is open in that sense. i think the wonderful thing, the important thing from my perspective as someone trying to pull this story together, what they delivered was actual facts, the kind of digging, investigative reporting he is great at.

which is, how much does it cost to fly a plane, how many justices of the court have flown private planes? the information about thomas grew organically out of the fact checking they were doing about the activities of various members of the supreme court. it was not like there was this open secret and they decided to step in and go for it. there was a lot of sweat and blood in the effort to uncover the extent of which -- to which thomas and -- clarence and ginni thomas and harlan crow and his wife are connected as close friends, who every year, vacation, travel the world and the question i always ask of the people i interviewed is, so, what happens when you are harlan crow and alone in a room with clarence thomas for a weekend? or, you are on your jet on a way

to a speech? that is the question everybody should be asking. and, hope justice thomas and other justices who have strangely dicey connections should come clean and tell us they decided to try and come up with rules and regulations they can follow. host: let's go to derek in randall's town, maryland on the democrats line. caller: clarence thomas, he can travel the world. he can travel to the moon. clarence thomas is a sellout. clarence thomas could be a role model for black people, too young, black men who decide to be attorneys. he refuses to be. for some reason, i do not know why he thinks being treated unjustly -- where i come from,

he is called an uncle tom. he is a sellout. he forgot where he came from and did not bring any black people with him. clarence thomas, i hope everything that happens to you is not good. you deserve everything you got that black people want to get. thank you. host: your film points out he is a role model to a number of conservatives in this country. guest: it is true. it is an interesting problem for justice clarence thomas. he is aware a lot of black people in america no longer like him. his name in itself is a joke, a derisive act in many circles. he has always been at odds. at a momentary time, at a holy cross, he was a member of a largely black group of friends

and contemporaries. the people we talked to who know him best say it bothers him that he does not have that kind of sway with young, black, would be attorneys and others. but, he is in that position where he says, i am going to steadfastly do what i think is the right thing with the law and color be dammed. host: you were able to speak to a couple of his former clerks. was it difficult to find folks who worked with him to come on camera with you? guest: it is. i do not know if i would say difficult, there was a lot of unwritten rules about what you do if you are a clerk or if you are not. any of the people we talked to, we never asked -- we ask, but we never expected inside information about decisions on what cases to do and whatever.

that was less important to me than understanding who he is and who ginny is and how they operate in washington, first during trump and where their power was at their absolute pinnacle. now, during biden, where it continues to be quite powerful. their impact in the world, and the way things will change, which becomes long-lasting changes -- the dobbs decision about abortion, for example. the impact of clarence thomas on that and many decisions before the court are long-lasting and done, according to justice thomas and some of his clerks, independent of race and gender. he wants to think of himself as a person above that. the clerks, by the way, love him. the people at the supreme court, even people you would think are -- of rgb and others, were very

friendly with thomas. he is like building -- he knows everybody, the names of their kids, he is apparently fantastic and his clerks are foremost some of the best clerks on the court. they have formed a group ginny runs of former clerks, really talking all the time and advising at a distance and have the thomas view and are therefore quite supportive of them. some of the people we talked to were not critical necessarily of this jurisprudence, but work right -- were quite knowledgeable of the difficulties he has faced coming up in the world. host: let's go to philip on the republican line in ohio. welcome.

caller: taking my call. my only problem is, in the documentary, do you stream all the trips every supreme court justice has to, the mistaken foreign? as far as you are doing ginny, on her advising clarence thomas, what is the difference between that and michelle obama advising barack obama? it is the same cat -- is it the same cat and mouse game? guest: michelle obama not have a business that was in politics. as far as i know, no supreme court justice's spouse has such an active, "independent" career in business. she wanted to be a congress person, she is very active in issues. she is a long-standing,

apparently follow where of qanon and other conspiracy theories. very much into that world. access to a lot of trump's and trump's family and mark meadow'' chief of staff. she is in the business of shaping the politics of this country. michelle obama, i reported on the obama administration, i had plenty of negative things to report on that. not that michelle obama was playing the role of ginni thomas. ginni thomas is a unique character. as far as i can tell from the people we talk to, the way justice thomas has handled the harlan crow moment is, and the hundreds of thousands of dollars in gifts and apparently crow has bestowed upon them with these trips and other things, other gifts, it all starts to complicate the smell test there. it is not about ginni. it is about the very wealthy,

very conservative, white people doing something that has never really been done with the supreme court justice, a very powerful, supreme court justice. i happen to know in trying to find out how many other trips were being taken by members of the supreme court. this is by any standards that anybody talks about, this is the largest case of the biggest example, the most fragrant example of the supreme court accepting gifts of the magnitude of hundreds of thousands of dollars, including $500,000 given by harlan crow to ginni's political action group she was running. she was paid $120,000 a year out of that. these are all things that are factual and accurate.

i think, very different than anything michelle obama ever did or could conceive of. host: let's take a look at the portion of the film from the earliest days of clarence and ginni thomas. here is a look. [video clip] >> she sees that outside world attacking her as something that needs to be beaten down, something that needs to be destroyed. >> in spiritual warfare, good versus evil, we are fighting something we did not understand. we needed god. ♪ >> it is a reprisal of the ideology ginni thomas had from her first society days. they regarded their opponents as enemies and practically satanic. so, she said you've got to fight back against the evil tormentors. host: michael kirk, how different was ginni thomas's background versus clarence

thomas? he is black, but how economically different and experience wise, was it different from his upbringing? guest: in some ways, the geography of where she lived and grew up and where he lived and grew up is equally interesting and impactful. clarence, in a segregated jim crow south of the 1950's. absolute poverty, living in a house that did not have running water or a toilet. everything you could imagine, horrible. ginni thomas, on the other hand, grows up in omaha, nebraska. goes to a high school with 750 students in her class. there are very few, if any, minority students in this. she started living in a world where she has a sophisticated understanding of people of color and different kinds of people. her world is largely white.

her father is a wealthy real estate developer. an engineer. her mother is incredibly active in politics, especially conservative politics. the john burks society of -- her mom, marjorie, runs for office. she is a supporter, a partner with philips wellfleet on the equal rights imminent. ginni grows up in that world. she sell -- she describes herself as a mistake child. all of her siblings were a lot older. her mom and dad surprisingly have little ginni, and they take her everywhere they go. she sees reagan as a young girl. she sees nixon as a young girl. she is at the convention when the reagan revolution is beginning and picking up steam.

and, is an assistant to the local congressman from omaha when she first moves to washington. so, her life story is privilege, tremendous privilege in the black and white, good and evil upbringing in political terms that comes out of her parents allegiance to the burks society of the world. her mom was a goldwater girl in that campaign in 1964. she is steeped in it. clarence on the other hand is pin bolling through one terrible circumstance after another in search of home. when they finally come together, you find somebody who can nurture him. somebody who can help him create a home psychologically, emotionally and practically.

host: here is louise in fredericksburg, virginia on the republican line. caller: well, i give it to you. you have thrown out all the old bogeyman, the john birch society and all and all and all. i want to ask you something. when you were a young person, aren't you searching for direction? aren't you searching for what you truly believe in? this man is a godsend to the world. he is a good man. he is an intelligent man. he is a man with wisdom. all i can see is, this is a hit job on somebody that is black. you are anti-black. you are anti-black and white marriage. you, it is you. you are projecting. you onto clarence thomas. host: all right, louise. we will give michael kirk a chance to respond.

guest: this is the enemy of the people counterattack. i spent six months of my life, i do not know how much time you have spent out there, ma'am. with all due respect, you've got a right to your opinion. i think with an open mind and our own prejudices, to be sure to identify and work against, we went out and wanted to find out the true story. i think we did. as i say, we did not talk to enemies of these people. there are a lot of friends, a lot of supporters, coworkers who talk about them. john bolton, name the conservatives you would like to hear from and watch our film if you can with an open mind or even with your prejudices and not just anger at somebody who tells you something you do not want to hear. watch the film and decide.

call me and see if you still feel the same way after you watch the film. host: jay sanders says this on twitter. justice thomas ventures beyond elite schools to film clerkship in a system where justice is whole from their alma mater's and a handful of other top schools. justice thomas cast the widest net. in your film, you point out justice clarence thomas elect el school graduate, very disappointed that he did not get hired by some top law firms in new york or washington. why -- what were his expectations coming out of yale? guest: many of clarence's friends, some who went to law school, were themselves beneficiaries of affirmative action. say what clarence was after was what they were after.

go to yield law school, this is an automatic ticket to the top rung. you are a graduate of yale law school, you will get a prestigious job on wall street if you want. you will get the money. you will have arrived. i think clarence had an expectation that might happen. when he got there, he realized the school -- even though his housemate at the time was john bolton and they were having regular conversations about the conservative perspective of the world and whatever, clarence realized as he graduated that the school -- bill and hillary clinton were just ahead of them. a lot of people believed they were going to try to change the world were in those classes. that was not clarence's style. he was outgunned, he basically never spoke in class. he did not get any offers, like many of the other people. one of his friends tells us he realized because of the affirmative action, a way he

gets into school, he feels in his mind the little checkmark that says not qualified, just receiving progressive, liberals conscience -- there was an asterisk next to his name that said black recipient affirmative action graduate of yale law school. he keeps the rejection letters. one person tells us, it stacked up neatly, even as a supreme court justice, even after all these years. he remembers them. he has a $.10 price tag put on his diploma from yale law school because he said that was the price of -- that was the worth of the degree from yale law school. he has memories from things of

his past life, including his graduation from law school or he leaves to be an assistant attorney general in missouri for $10,000 a year, one of the few jobs he felt like he wanted to take. host: we have time for a call or two more. we will get to mike in springfield, virginia. independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call. a couple observations. the first was during the hearings for his confirmation, there was a contentious moment. he was in the hall with other people. my friend had heard them talking. they came up with the tagline, high-tech lynching. that was the thing he had spouted. the second observation is, where i live, over the course of the year and a half or so, i have run into him twice. the first time, i spotted him. i was walking toward him. his wife stepped right ahead and

he does not have time to talk to you. he has things to do. i was kind of shocked by that. that actually happened a second time. i know she seemed very controlling of him. i got to give it to her, she had one eye on the parking lot and one eye in the front to see who is approaching him. i thought that was strange. thank you were taking my call. host: michael kirk as we wrap up here, any final thoughts you think viewers should know about the film and why they should watch? guest: let's pause for one second on the phrase affirmative action, which the film will make a decision about -- which the court will make a decision about tomorrow, and the next week or weeks. this has been -- his position on affirmative action has been an accumulation of the slights and rejections of his entire life. and, as a policy something he is determined to take apart.

he no longer believes any law found by the supreme court is subtle law, that is the theory. he does not believe in that. he is reopening lots of things and affirmative action will be the first, real sign since the dobbs decision, the antiabortion decision, in doing away of roe v. wade. watch closely, and then watch the film. or, then watch the film and watch closely, and see how it works. affirmative action, you might know why he has come down, why the court has come down and the way it will. host: clarence and ginni thomas, politics in the supreme court. michael kirk directed, cowrote it. it is available now, pbs.org/front line. it is available on the pbs video at. thanks for joining us this morning, michael kirk. guest: my pleasure, thank you. host: that will about do it for this morning's program. we are back tomorrow morning at

7:00 eastern. we hope you are, as well. happy mother's day, particularly to you new moms. we will see you here tomorrow. ♪

9:00 tonight.