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mcconnell, mccarthy, and jeffries will be meeting at the white house with resident joe biden to talk and try to get on the same page about the debt limit and spending cuts. democrats of course maintain that they would like those discussions to be separate. republicans maintain they need to be tied together. completely tied together. they will not be held to vote for anything that divorces them. not much has moved since their meeting last week. there was a signal on friday where they canceled another potential meeting because of staff level talks that seemed to -- i don't know if progress is the right word but they were at least continuing so they wanted to give those folks more time to hash things out. this is a reconvening after a whole week of staff level talks

between the principles and sitting down at the white house in more symbolic than, you know, a flip phone call. host: the thing that has moved as the ticking clock i'm getting closer to the so-called x date when we might the debt ceiling. an update from the treasury secretary already this week. where are we on that? guest: the date is still as soon as june 1. host: what does it mean, as soon as? guest: the treasury department has already been using extraordinary measures, trying to find ways to put this off for months, frankly. the debt limit was supposed to be reached months ago. they are coming to the end of that road. the default would be catastrophic. the economy, everyone both parties agree that default would be a terrible outcome.

we have already seen the brinksmanship in 2011 that led to a credit downgrade from two separate agencies. even after a deal was struck, credit agencies were so freaked out by how partisan it had become that they downgraded the united states. when we talk about the june 1 deadline, it is getting to a sweating point. the senate is on recess next week. the house is set to be on recess the last week of may. and joe biden leaves for japan in the middle of this week. for the g7. so we are looking at this kind of, these talks today are not just a reconvening. but probably a discussion of what is the plan here to get this done by the deadline. even if we don't have the details hammered out, the ship chuck schumer need to tell

senators -- tough luck, be here next week? does kevin mccarthy do the same for the last week of may? will the congressional schedule be upended for the rest of the month and possibly into june? host: the latest on the federal debt limit debate. katherine tully-mcmanus is our guest for this segment of "the washington journal. start calling in with your questions and comments on this. phone lines as usual, (202) 748-8000 for democrats. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. please all reports yesterday of the white house offering to talk about tax loopholes and trying to close those as a part of this negotiation. what did you hear, what are you hearing about that? guest: that has been a point that democrats have hammered for a long time. one way to bring in additional revenue in this country is to

really crack down some of the race the wealthiest americans skirt tax laws. that is one way they were hoping to, you know, boost american revenue. republicans have kind of said it's a nonstarter. especially after the warm reception they got for many of their tax cuts under the trump administration. they are not looking to tighten up those loopholes. i know that the president has also seemed like he might be open to talks about republican entrees into increasing basically work requirements and other more stringent policies from safety net programs, eating food stamps. the president kind of opened the door for talks about that, although i do expect

progressives in the democratic party to all caps that. -- party to balk at that. host: spending caps, clawing back the unspent money from covid relief, and that permitting reform as a way to open up domestic energy production. is that your understanding of these three pillars? guest: i definitely think those are on the table. honestly at this point those are the three we are hearing about. i am sure that there are other topics on the table or that folks are forcing into those conversations that frankly just don't know are on the table yet. i do think that especially the permitting is a way that both parties could pull support from members that could be outliers on any deals.

if they can satisfy those folks with a permitting plan. orsino joe manchin has talked about this in the senate republicans have their own proposals. that is definitely an option. covid aid, the details are lacking on those proposals. in part because there were so many bills billed as covid aid starting in early 2020. there are so many that were distributed to so many places, state-level or local grant. like that. decide where to claw that back, it can even get political which states clawback heading into an election year. guest: going to take some calls, katherine tully-mcmanus is with us until 8:30.

john, ventura, california, republican, good morning. caller: good morning, everyone. i would like to start off with the omnibus bill. maybe you could answer some questions about that. there was no republican input. $6 trillion. remember, it caused huge amounts of inflation. up to 10% at one point. remember joe biden saying it's paid for? well, if it's paid for by raising the debt ceiling with no republican in, now the republicans have the house and they are going back on the waste spending in the omnibus bill and this is what has happened. if they raise the debt ceiling to the democrat level, there will be more inflation, more interest rate hikes. if you raise the debt level to

where the republicans made cuts, there will be less inflation and less interest rate hikes. host: that was john in california. you remember the omnibus bill? guest: i remember it and many before it. that is absolutely what republicans are saying, the out-of-control spending is driving things and it may be a problem. i do think it is important to say that during the trump administration and even in the 2011 field with the obama administration, raising the debt mitt is a bipartisan endeavor. both parties came together to agree to those levels to increase the debt limit. and it was not along party lines. while the spending bills might be along party lines, the increase on the debt limit has gotten through on both parties over the years. guest: republican line, florida, good morning you're on with katherine tully-mcmanus.

caller: in all the times you have talked about the debt ceiling lately i have never heard anybody give an actual definition of what the debt ceiling is. we have tried to describe it like credit card payments and things like that but you have never given a definition of the debt doing and why we have one. it's a cap on the total amount of money that the federal government is authorized to borrow through the u.s. treasury securities to fulfill its financial obligations. it allows the treasury department to borrow up to a set amount, this is since 1917i believe, with world war i war bonds and savings bonds it allowed the u.s. treasury department to issue bonds without the congress having to approve each and every time the

federal government needs money. so this is basically an easy way for the legislature to get out of doing their job. so if they don't want to raise the ceiling, maybe they should do away with the debt ceiling altogether and go back to doing their job the way that it was prescribed in the constitution, which under article one, section eight part one, says that their job is to lay and collect taxes. number two is to borrow money on the edit of the u.s. government for the treasury. the first one deals with the irs. the first thing mccarthy did when he finally got his speakership was to take a vote to do away with the money to give to the irs to collect the taxes and pay the bills. host: we will stop you there.

on the idea of doing away with the debt ceiling in light of this debate and running up against this deadline, there has been more talk about doing away with the debt ceiling by members of congress. guest: absolutely. there are bills submitted by this congress and is congresses to eliminate the debt ceiling altogether. mostly from democrats. the argument against it from republicans has been that that would cause spending to be completely unfettered. where of course this caller pointed out that it could actually afford lawmakers to approve every single time they are going to cross that threshold of spending more, taking in revenue for taxes. the caller also really nailed the democratic argument about that funding for the irs, which was a historic amount to pour

into the irs. their argument was that we would see this back multiple full by catching tax cheats among some of the richest americans. zooming in on those folks who -- not low income folks who have made a mistake on their taxes. democrats say they are going after the heavy hitters, the alien ears and billionaires who can hire folks to get around american tax laws. they are trying to pour money into that in order to reap back greater amounts in revenue. that has been distributed but it will take time to amend the policies. host: on getting around or doing away with the debt limit, have you heard much about using the 14th amendment heading into this hearing or this meeting at the white house? the president act about it last week.

is it getting as much attention this week? guest: plenty of people are talking about it. realistically it's far down the list. i also think that there are many people who would like to end the debate and you know, raise the debt limit and avert default who would be very concerned about removing this power from the legislative branch and moving it into the white house and seating one element of the power of the purse to the executive branch. so that is a kind of institutional concern that folks have raised. but it is definitely still floating around. people are talking about it. i have not heard the principles discuss it heading into this meeting as a serious option. also, you can't imagine the kevin mccarthy, who took the

lead for republicans on this deal, would be happy to say take care of it yourself, mr. president. host: i'm sure we will hear from the principles soon when they come out of the white house, it took about an hour afterward last week and we are expecting the same today? guest: they will probably gaggle again when they get back to the capital. we are all waiting to see. maybe are there more details? things staff have hammered out over the last week to get this off the table for discussion by congressional leaders in the president? maybe. last week they came out and said we talked and that was in progress, the conversation itself was seen as the progress as opposed to line items on the table. host: the pool time is 3 p.m. eastern. last time there was a spray where the cameras came in. the president and the leaders

did a meet and greet and then they closed doors for an hour-long meeting and then the questions and comments came in afterwards. if that is how it plays out today, expect about 4:00 q&a with reporters. got about 10 minutes left with katherine tully-mcmanus this morning. phone lines as usual. ted in florida, independent, good morning. caller: good morning, guys. i would like to make one comment, one of the talking points frequently used, the credit rate agencies lower the credit rating back in 2011 and actually only one of them did. that was standard & poor's. moody's kept the aaa plus for the u.s. treasuries. that's all i have. host: are you worried there could be another credit downgrade this time as we get closer to june 1?

caller: not really. they only ticked it down one notch and it still one of the highest ratings you can have. host: you wouldn't be worried about a downgrade even if it happened? caller: no. host: i should ask, how concerned are members about another credit downgrade when you talk to them about this? guest: ted is right, it's the talking point they are using frequently in both parties are bringing up. i do think that those warnings from the treasury department and lawmakers are that the economic consequences of course once you hit default our catastrophe. but there is also just uncertainty that can cause significant concerns and waves, stock market or other sectors of the economy.

that is something members are watching closely. they know that the lead up time can be not as dangerous but approaching as dangerous as the default itself as they continue to project inability to solve the crisis. host: you did a story on what each congressional leader wants heading into the white house meeting with resident biden. can you do it again today? guest: let's start with the folks taking a backseat. mitch mcconnell has said that kevin mccarthy is taking the lead on this for republicans. he will not be swooping in. he and biden have a long history of dealmaking together and he will not be taking on that role. the minority leader in the house, jeffries, says he's in lock that with the white house and is definitely in communication with his fellow new yorker, chuck schumer about making sure they can deliver democratic votes for whatever

deal gets made. i do think that he and schumer are on the lookout for discussion points from this meeting and some of the staff meetings that may have democrats break off. we talked about the progressive requirements for foodstamp snapper quit -- recipients that might raise a red flag in their caucus. less so in the meeting and more so in their own caucus meetings. kevin mccarthy is going in there and maintaining that the bills the republicans have passed are the line. that is where he needs to stick, as close to that line as possible. he only has four republican votes to lose in the house. whereas of course the republicans in his conference and the democrats understood the bills to be a starting point for negotiations. but there is also an understanding that senate

republicans are starting to discuss and talk among cells about the house republicans needing to know that they need to be able to move towards a solution. we had a story on that this morning of senate republicans looking at house republicans saying you have got to play ball. guest: who is taking the lead on that if not mitch mcconnell? guest: mitch mcconnell has said that he will back a deal. what he is not going to do is support a deal that gets cooked up. we have seen senate gangs in the past. he's not going to back a senate gang. he won't even touch a house gang. i do think that he will take the lead on messaging within the conference but don't expect him to, he didn't even give a speec >> live coverage of congress. continue watching c-span.org as we take you live to the floor of the u.s. house. here on