community centers so students and families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. >> comst supports c-span as a public service along with his ging you a front row seat to democracy. >> coming up next on "washington journal," the book "saving democracy: a user's manual for every american." we speak with former chair of the ohio democratic party, david pepper. brandon judd of the national border control council talks about the biden administration's policies and conditions at the southern border. "washington journal" starts now. host: "washington journal" for may 30. as it goes for particle parties,

running for the white house in 2024 entries are expected. president biden and former president trump lead to the pack for their parties. when it comes to 2024 politics, have you determined who you would like to see at the top of the ticket? what would you consider others at the top of the ticket? call us and let us know. here is how you can call us. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. if you want to text us your response under candidate of choice, you can do that at 202-748-8003. post on our social media sites at facebook and twitter. you can also follow the show on instagram. when it comes to those two main presidential parties come here is the current lineup of those interested in running for the white house in 2024. the current incumbent president

biden expected to make another run, nothing in recent weeks he plans to do that. author and activist marianne williamson is in that group along with robert kennedy junior , making their bids on the democratic side. when you look at the republican side, a much larger field. former president trump, governor n desantis. he starts a tour today when it comes to opening his bid for the white house. tim scott out of south:. asa hutchinson is in that mix as well as nikki haley and larry elder. when it comes to republican candidates come on the those currently making a bid for the white house, it is reported others may be entering the field. one of those people may already be at the top of your ticket choice when it comes to 2024.

you -- if you want others, you can call us at 202-748-8000 for democrats, 202-748-8001 for republicans, and independents at 202-748-8002. we look at potential matchups, asking people on the level of support they have currently on this. when it comes to former -- credit president biden and former president trump, it is joe biden with 32% of those polled saying they would give him support versus 29% giving that support to former president trump. when it comes to those who would definitely not give support, 40 5% of those for president biden at 46% of those for former president trump. and also imagine the matchup between president biden and ron desantis with joe biden getting 31% of definite support among those in the matchup against ron

desantis's 26%. 46% saying they would not support a joe biden and 47% saying they would not support ron desantis. and also imagines a matchup between the current president and the former vice president, mike pence who has not entered the race formally saying when it comes to support, 27% saying it would be joe biden versus 80% giving support to mike pence. those are some of the imagined matchups. you can put your imaginations to work when it comes to the top of that ticket. come 2024, if you have determined somebody you would like to see or perhaps there is somebody else in the mix were someone else we have not mentioned, give us a call on the lines. you can also post on facebook and twitter. abc reporting, and that ron desantis plans to kickoff the president of campaign of his

starting in iowa today. the start of the busy week and they will take him to 12 cities in three states as he tests his pitch for the most formidable republican challenger, president trump. his trip to the elite of caucus estate starting at the suburban des moines mega church and ending at a racetrack comes after a stumbling on an announcement that formalized his long anticipated entry into the growing republican field. it will be followed by stops in early primary states including new hampshire and south carolina. and also says that is scheduled at the trinity church in clive's and nodded to event are christians who will -- in the iowa caucus. this as he has been picking up his criticism against former president trump. ron desantis, it was on twitter that he made the announcement about his intentions to run for

president of united states. here's a portion from that announcement. [video clip] i am running -- >> i am running for the president of the united states to lead the great american comeback. we see with our eyes and feel that in our bones, our southern border has collapsed, drugs appointed to the country, our cities are being hollowed out by crime. the federal government is making it harder for the average family to make ends meet. our president flatters and edifices of our country's challenges. i don't think it has to be this way. america's decline is not inevitable, it is a choice. we should choose in your direction, a path that will lead to revitalization. we must restore sanity to our nation. host: that was the announcement he made. he plans stops today among others.

when it comes to president biden, nbc carries the story looking at the strategy he will use as part of the reelection campaign, congo his friends and associates to make the pitch for him. abc sang part of the reelection campaign means that the president is campaigning as government. that is the reality. addressing the reality means you have to leverage the networks and other parties, a voice familiar with the campaign planning. the campaign has coordinated several interviews both in english and spanish, a broad-spectrum multiplatform platform that will help the message breakthrough. these surrogates and cochairs and members of the advisory board and bus president kamala harris are agreeable and available to do the work. we anticipate being very active. that is maxwell frost, a progressive freshman. it is a list of more than 50

names. i think the president was to put together a list of people who are ready to go to work. that is part of president biden's strategy when it comes to his campaign announcement. he made his announcement through a video posted online. here is a portion of that. [video clip] ♪ pres. biden: freedom. personal freedom is fundamental to. who we are as americans there is nothing more important, nothing more sacred. that has been the first -- the work of my first term, to fight for democracy. protect our rights, make sure everyone in this country is treated equally and everyone is given a fair shot. around the country, maga extremists are lining up to take over those freedoms, cutting social security while cutting

taxes for the wealthy, dictated what health care decisions women can make, banning books, and telling people who they can love. all while making it more difficult for you to vote. when i ran for president four years ago, i said we were in a battle for the soul of america and we still are. the question we are facing is whether in the years ahead, we have more freedom with less freedom, more rights or fewer. i know i want and i think you do, too. this is not better to be complacent -- this is not a time to be complacent. that is why i am running for reelection. i know america. i know we are good and decent people. i know we are still a country that believes in honesty and respect, treating each other with dignity.

we are a nation where we give hate no save harbor. we believe everyone is equal, everyone should be given a fair shot to succeed in this country. every generation of americans has faced a moment when they have to dependent democracy come stand up for our personal freedom, stand up for the right to vote and our civil rights. this is our moment. ♪ [cheering] pres. biden: so if you are with me, go to joebiden.com and sign

up. let's finish this job, i know we can. this is the united states of america. there is nothing we cannot do if we do together -- do it together. ♪ host: there is president biden's announcement from several weeks ago. he could be your choice if you are a democrat. perhaps if you are republican, you have trouble at the top of that was. that you're cj from minneapolis, democrat's line. caller: good morning to you and thank you for allowing me to [indiscernible] >> it doesn't really matter -- caller: it is not really matter to me who wins, it depends on the senate. joe biden wins again, we wait

the senate is treating him, it is going to be trump. this and still thinks that donald trump is president -- the senate still thinks that donald trump is president. i don't think joe biden should run again. i don't think it would be healthy for him. i would rather see somebody else run. if they do get in with the old-fashioned congress and the old-fashioned senate we got, it didn't like the president, they are to give him a hard time. they want donald trump back in there. he is not good for the country at all. host: let me ask you about this, the senate is democratically controlled. why do you hold those views of the senate? caller: look at what the republicans are still doing even though the senate is democratic-controlled, the

democrats in the senate don't seem to be getting the message out loud and clear about their position. you are think the republicans still run it. look what they did with the debt limit. after democrats are in control, they don't act like it. host: okay. cj there looking at the senate. more expressing thoughts about president biden. as you from margin in two men. -- in north carolina. caller: i watch c-span, i watch all politics. i watch it very closely. i believe i am an astute examiner of politics. i voted for donald trump last time. i am glad i voted for him. i thought he was a great president. i think the most important thing in this country -- in this

country is the book moment. this is all coming from the left. it is a sick movement. it is going after corporations like target is now another one that is pushing this twisted ideology onto our children. i believe that woke is what is destroying america. host: back to the political question, when it comes to the top of the ticket, would you like to see president trump run again? caller: i switched. i am going to vote for ron desantis. the reason i am is because i watched him give a couple of speeches. this is truly an unusual man. he is a giant. he served in the navy, he won honors in the navy. he graduated from yale and

harvard. he took care of his wife when she had cancer. he is an amazing human gene -- amazing human being. he is her lucky -- he is low-key so you don't get that unless you listen to him. i think he will do a better job going after the woke ideology that is run by the democratic party. they embrace it. like ronald reagan once said, -- host: got your point. let's hear from dan, independent line, as far as your 2024 candidate. do you have a choice or are you concerning others? this is dan. caller: i have not really decided. i just have to say, what is

happening with the rhetoric with this president we have right now and listening to his tweets he puts on twitter, this commercial , it is so bad it is almost like a purity -- a parody of something portraying him on one hand and then you have the actions on the other hand which are completely contradictory to the message coming across. in america right now, what we are witnessing is the largest, most effective propaganda campaign by a big government in the history of the world. host: how does that affect your view of 2024 and who you will vote for next? caller: i am definitely not

going to vote for joe biden. what we are witnessing is -- host: you already made those points. do you have another choice in mind? caller: if you're looking to counter an authoritarian government using its power to sway people is certain way, you need a disruptor in there to try to fix that. the constitution gives us, the people, the ability to do that by electing a civilian president. host: let's go to tammy in louisiana, democrats line. caller: i just want to say that for money because inflation is so high, it is not going to be joe biden and it is not going to

be anything like an obama or bill clinton. it is going to be marianne livingston. she is the closest i have to my choice. she did great interviews and it was so good. not like that joe biden. host: what is it about her platform or ideas that compels you the most? caller: she talks about the 1% they are, how that it has come for people like me and you. she speaks to me more than joe biden, especially in time of a trans genocide which you can read about, but you want. he could and right now.

that is why i'm voting for marianne livingston. i think she is the best. host: that is tammy in louisiana. marianne livingston talked on this program about her interest in the white house. you can see that interview on c-span.org. here is a portion from marianne livingston. [video clip] i am saying -- >> i am saying, the people say but not when the microphone is on. we are not a government by the people and for the people. lincoln said the man who died who were slaughtered for the union died on the battlefield giving their last four measure of devotion so that a government by the people and for the people will not. from the earth. it is perishing now. we are a government by the corporations of the

corporations, and for the corporations. our government is a little more than legalized bribery where legislator after legislator in the final analysis does more to answer to the goals of their corporate donors and the people of the u.s.. we have the safety, well-being, the health of the american people at this point almost secondary to the profit margins of insurance and pharmaceutical companies, chemical companies, food companies, gun manufacturers, big oil, and defense contractors. the people know this. host: that for interview is available on our website at c-span.org. who do you want at the top of your ticket in 2024? maybe you have a solid choice, maybe you are considering others, call us at 202-748-8001 for democrats, 202-748-8002 for republicans, and independents,

-- at 202-748-8000 for democrats, 202-748-8001 for publicans, and independents at 202-748-8002 . portable is reporting that speaker mccarthy's team is hoping to avoid a disaster with a meeting at 3:00 today. chip roy, ralph norman, and thomas massie, three conservatives who serve on the panel are risked to vote against the rule which allows legislation to cut it before. all expressed reservations about the bill. we are expecting house freedom caucus chair to hold a press conference today around noon to talk about where the house freedom caucus is. this story saying there is chatter that massey may still back the role -- the rule. massey backed mccarthy from

start to finish. that rules committee, taking a look at the bill put out there, 3:00 today. if you want to see what happens and what those republican legislators have to say about this, you can watch that on c-span3 come our c-span now app, and you can follow along at c-span.org. when it comes to 2024 politics, some of you posting on airfields. av were saying there will likely be indicted of president trump, leaving ron desantis to carry on the mantle of hatred and corruption. tony at a massachusetts, "-- saying he is voting for president trump next year. if trump is out, desantis is my guy. albert saying i'm voting for robert kennedy junior come all the way. another viewer saying that

"biden made it clear that president trump is the only man for the job. do you imagine how much. would have been if the democrats did not try to take down a sitting president?" those are the various views on our feet. sandra from north carolina. you are on. go ahead. caller: my concern is that the republican party has become the party of authoritarians. you don't go by their rules, it no rules at all. in terms of they don't care about anyone but themselves. it is either their way or no way. i am so disappointed in this particular party. there are violent, the clerk for, hateful, angry about what? they continue to combine about this country. host: are you a republican? caller: yes i am.

host: who did you vote for in the last election? caller: joe biden. host: who do you want to see in the next election round you are a republican? caller: anybody but a republican. they have proven themselves -- i am no longer saying we. they have proven themselves to care about nothing but themselves. it is their way or no way. this is a country built on compromise, supposedly, for all people regardless of who you are, where you came from. host: let's go to cal in manhattan, democrats line. caller: good morning. i am just so glad you inserted that update about the debt crisis before you took my call because i wanted to link the two

together, the two issues together, campaign 2024 and the debt crisis. it seems the country is locked in this unspeakable sense of fear that we are in this crisis situation, that we are all complicit in and that no one can solve. we are all complicit, from me right up to the president of the u.s. who has been vice president and senator and has his fingerprints over all the policies that has led us up to this very moment. we have all been complicit in building to this very moment. you adequately with livingston and she was chopping up lincoln to her benefit and i will do the same in the sense that in

lincoln's second inaugural address, he could only say it is not a northing or self paying in the final judgment, we are -- a north thing or a self thing in the final judgment -- host: you said you were going to link to the campaign. caller: we have to admit this mutual complicity and move on to some unknown candidate. listening to your earlier calls, even back to the first caller, all candidates are full of contradiction that offer no solutions. we have to admit our own complicity and then move on to a voice that will articulate that complicity and select him or her. that person is unknown. it is very distressing. host: let's go to joe in new

york, republican line. caller: only trump. last election, he was good for the people and he lost his votes, so only trump. host: he is the only choice you have at the moment? caller: yeah. he will make it. host: and if he doesn't win the primary, any other considerations you might look at? caller: he will get it, i promise you. host: it was in november that the former president donald trump announced he was going to make another bid for the white house. here is a portion of those comments from november. [video clip] >> i am running because i believe the world has not yet seen the true glory of what this nation can be. we have not reached that pinnacle. in fact, we can go very far.

first we have to get out of this ditch. once we are out, you will see things nobody imagined for any country. it is called the united states of america and it is an credible place -- an incredible place. we are americans and we do not have to endure what has taken place in washington, d.c.. this is our country, our government. the carter's of power, these are our carters. we are coming to take those carters back. from now until election day in 2024, which will come very quickly, we will look at how fast it has gone, i will fight like no one has ever filed before -- ever fought before.

we will defeat the radical democrats trying to destroy our country from within and protect us all. we have to be protected from all those nations out there looking to destroy us from the on our shores. -- from beyond our shores. host: all of these are available at the website. the new york times reporting early this morning that chris christie of new jersey formed a super pac supporting him in the republican primary as he makes preparations for a likely campaign kickoff in the next two weeks. his candidacy is like you to focus in part on trying a contrast between president trump. he supported trump in 2016 and worked with him during his presidency, but they split over claims on election night that the race was stolen from him.

people who have been close to chris christie lead the group that is laying the groundwork for an announcement. brian jones, who advised john mccain's campaign in 2008 and mitt romney's in 2012 will run the effort. when it comes to 2024, if you have a top of ticket was already, you can let us know that. if you are considering others, you can let us know that as well. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. independents, 202-748-8002. let's hear from diane in alexandria. caller: good morning. people talk about how wonderful mr. trump is and i am thinking this guy give us the partisan supreme court, took away a woman's right to choose, give us a resurrection that we had to

witness the most horrible thing -- gave us an insurrection that we had to witness the most horrible thing. we had to watch people dying by thousands during covid. he's pretending you don't need to wear a mask and all this nonsense. i am voting for mr. biden because he rescued us from this nonsense. i don't see any democrat coming to challenge him. i don't like the fact that he is such an older guy but he has given us normalcy and the ability to bring together coalitions and get stuff done. the infrastructure bill, if nothing else. i don't know where these people are coming from. the last person you should be looking at is the criminal who tried to turn on the capitol building. that is my position. host: kenny in north:, democrats

-- north carolina, democrats line. caller: everybody needs to understand the republican strategy which is to privatize everything, the post office and department of education. their strategy is to undermine from within, way back even when -- was in there, never speak ill of a republican but never miss a chance to downgrade it democrat. they want to end every program fdr put in from social security down to the child labor laws. bernie sanders randy child labor laws time to 12. anybody in congress who still says the election was stolen does not negotiate anything. host: that is congress, what is 2024 looking like for you as far as a candidate?

caller: i don't see a republican i could stand for. host: you claim you are a democrat. are you a democrat? caller: i have been unaffiliated for the past five or six years. host: i will stop you there. if you would call on the line that best represents you, that would be independent more than anything else. if you are on the line, pick the line that does best present -- does best represent you. if you called on it last 30 days, if you would call off from doing so today. robert, republican line. host: there is 1 -- caller: there is one guy who's going to win. the others are too old. ron desantis served in the service, he did good in florida, i think he will be the best president we have ever had.

this is definitely what happened. host: he is very good for florida, how so? caller: he takes care of business. if people are not doing their job, he gets rid of them. he is going after disney world. they should pay their taxes like anybody else. host: is it financial policies of ron desantis? social policies? what do support most? caller: i support him because he is an american, he served in the service, we have a war going on, he would be perfect for it. host: robert and a florida supporting his governor, ron desantis. he is starting that four state swing today starting in iowa. you can follow along with the

various reporting going on there. eugene in boston, morning. caller: it amazes me how a five-time draft dodger raised bypimps could be transformed into captain america. it is a joke. i am going to be supporting president kennedy coming out of massachusetts. he is the best candidate for the job. that is where i am going to be putting my support. host: you are talking robert f. kennedy, jr.? caller: robert f. kennedy, jr.. host: why are you supporting him? caller: he is realistic. i really believe he is going to do everything he can to put power back in the hands of the

american people and out of the hands of the conglomerates and corporations that presently run the country. host: eugene in boston supporting robert kennedy junior making that announcement in early april --. our cameras were there to capture the announcement. you can see the whole thing on c-span.org. here's a pusher from robert kennedy junior. [video clip] >> i am not any ideal candidate for normal times. i am not one of these people who have spent their lives saying i have to be careful because one day i am going to be in the white house. [laughter] [applause] >> i actually did the opposite of that. i am at high risk.

i wasn't careful. even the issues i have attached myself to, anybody who looks at those issues will not say this guy is just try to get into the white house -- just trying to get into the white house. i had a rambunctious youth and it lasted until my early 60's. i told my wife that the day, i have got so many skeletons in my closet that if they could vote i could be king of the world. [applause] in normal circumstances, i would not do this. these are not normal circumstances. i am watching my country being stolen by me -- stolen from me. i/o into my children coming to

my family, and to my legacy -- i owe it to my children, to my family, and to my legacy. i don't want the democratic party to be full of censorship. caller: hard to listen to that guy. the problem with the u.s. is there are two parties and one of the parties did genuine six -- did january 6. the lady who called from colorado, she spoke for me. what is wrong with people? they did january 6. now we have people in descendant, terry crews, josh hawley, and guys in the house like august pfluger and all of these people that were insurrectionist voters.

they wanted trump to stay in and it was a crime. net you have people talking about how great trump is and it blows my mind. host: looking forward to 2024, who would you like to see at the top of the ticket? caller: biden-harris, absolutely. we have respect for in the united states. trouble is such a criminal. the countries disrespected us when he was president. host: when you say they have done great, how specifically in your mind. caller: the infrastructure bill, they stand up for people's rights like trans and gay-rights. they need fighters because these people are being subjected to the worst. there is some terrible propaganda going around that jesus wasn't woke or something. jesus and god are the essence of what woke means where you can see other people for what they are and not be hateful.

host: let's go to brian in maryland, republican line. caller: i was thinking as a republican nominee, ron desantis or tim scott. i like them both. i don't like the way that ron desantis has gone after disney. it is kind of authoritarian. as for astana cap -- as far as donald trump is concerned, i voted for him, but the book media has programmed america to hate this man -- but the woke media has programmed america to hate this man. host: desantis or tim scott, what stands out about both? caller: tim scott, i like his abuse. he knows america is not a racist country. he came from nothing to what he is now. that proves america works for

people. host: that is brian in baltimore. tim scott is one of many who have entered the republican side of the race for 2024, including former president trump. he made the announcement about his interest in the white house. you can see it all on c-span.org, but here is a portion from last week. [video clip] >> i have lived that the closest thing to magic in america is education. the far left has us retreating away from x let's in schools. liberals are letting labor buses trap millions of kids in failing schools. they are replacing education with indoctrination. they spent covid locking kids out of the classroom and now they are locking kids out of

their futures. in biden's america, crime is on the rise and law enforcement is in retreat. the far left is ending cache bills, they are demoralizing entity funding the police. i grew up in neighborhoods alongside people who ended up incarcerated or in the cemetery. we need more public safety, not less. we cannot have innocent people at risk. police officers getting ambushed in the attack and seniors locked in their homes from the time the seven goes down until the sun comes up. -- the sun goes down until the seven comes up. joe biden and a are attacking every single rung of the ladder to help me crime. that is why i am announcing today that i am running for

president of the united states of american. host: senator scott from last week. many of you posting on this. this is michael saying he would vote for an independent except for joe manchin. another viewer says there are too many republicans running and not enough democrats. mark stone says we need somebody who has this in policies as former president trump but has a different personality. i don't agree with you former president's bashing people who don't agree with them. he says that this current president is too old. he says that former president trump himself is exposing

decryption of both sides, hopefully not too late to save this country. president biden has us on the wrong path. this is a sampling of the people who have commented on twitter. our facebook pages facebook.com/c-span. you can also send us a text to 202-748-8003. let's hear from maryellen in california, democrats won -- democrats line. caller: i have got to say something. i am 85 years young. i still scuba dive, i still play golf. this thing about ageism is ridiculous. i don't what anybody criticizing any candidate regardless of party because of their age. it is ridiculous. either candidate, whether it is joe biden or bobby kennedy, whoever is at the top of the ticket, i will support. i am so disappointed.

years ago, i was a republican. i left the party because of sexism and racism. ronald reagan must be willing at his grave. i worked closely with ronald reagan and he was not a bigot. i am so disappointed at what the republican party has become. i think they are a threat to our democracy. i don't like any candidate that would not be -- host: you said you'd support a candidate such as joe biden or robert kennedy? what is it about either? do you agree with both of them or whoever is at the top of this get is your choice? caller: the kennedys have a great track record and sodas joe biden. look at what he has done. it is ridiculous. people act like he is too old to continue, give me a break. no he is not. host: answer from francis in

florida, republican line. caller: good morning, everybody. i think president trump did a marvelous job as president. however, there was so much drama that turns a lot of people off. according to the polling, he is behind biden. i don't think we could risk that again. that is why i would like to see ron desantis as the nominee. i don't think it would be able to get it. there is another person who has not declared at this time. speaker kevin mccarthy, i think he would be a wonderful candidate who knows some much about government -- who knows so much about government. i don't know if he is interested in it. i think he would make a fine

candidate. host: if i may ask you about desantis, what do you think it is he would bring from governor to the white house? caller: he is a common sense man. that appeals to me greatly. he has done things in our state, for example, regarding the lgbtq issue in education. to be age-appropriate, not get discriminated against -- not to discriminate against that group but has age-appropriate sexual education. that is common sense. he got reelected by 1.5 million votes. the people like him down here. host: virginia is next. jay, independent line.

caller: the reality is i am independent, i voted for trump the first time. i would like to see governor chris christie run. i think he is right in the middle. if trump becomes president, it is going to be settling scores. he is not going to lead. between biden and chris christie, i would support ron desantis. he is trump on steroids. he is going after african-american studies and disney, not just -- just culture war and more division. i would like to see it between chris christie and biden. host: when it comes to chris christie, is it because he turned his support away from normal trump? caller: i think he is a common sense guy.

i think he is a true first. saying the election was not stolen, that kind of helped. i think he was a good governor. he was not perfect, but right now we need leadership. trump not provide leadership. he is not a good leader. people should look for a leader, someone who brings people together, someone who does not put his agenda first. independence -- independents like him. being governor of new jersey, i think he would get a lot of support from both sides. host: let's hear from janet in chicago, democrats line. caller: right now, i am just embarrassed by the leadership in this country.

i don't understand from either side why we have gone so wrong and how the other countries must do us -- most of the u.s. -- must view us. it is an embarrassment. biden, this is not what he originally said it, that he was going to run a second time. he made it sound like he was going to prepare someone else. he didn't. he did not bother to do that and he just decided to put himself back in there. host: why do you not want him to run his second term? -- to run a second term?

caller: i think he has already served our country for so long and he has done enough for our country. it is time to retire. host: who would you like to see? caller: that is the problem, we don't anybody willing to step up. there are some of the people that are great, but it is like their wife is like i don't really want to do this. we have a lot of people, but their spouses are not willing. we are really in a quandary because they really are not people who can step up, that have any kind of name recognition. . we are kind of screwed right now. host: one of those people running on the republican line is feedback, salami -- he is running as the true outsider as

he seeks tubes to mersch himself from a number of other hope or problems -- a number of other high-profile names. he has built a brand for himself as the anti-woke crusader. president trump why did these in the 2024 field -- widely leads in the 2024 republican field. he announced his intentions to run for president back in february. here is what something she had to say in february about race. [video clip] we have one colts -- >> we have one cult of woke racial identity says that you are identified by the college of your skin, if you are black, your disadvantaged, if you are white, you are privileged. your race governs what you can do in life. don lemon said i cannot express a particular opinion if i wasn't of the right race.

ayanna pressley of this quad said it well when she says that we don't want anymore brown faces that don't want to be a brown voice. i don't fit her description of what counts as a brown voice. there is something very interesting there. the move is that when your race goes from being about your skin color to being about the content of ideas you are allowed to espouse, then any disagreement with those ideas automatically makes you a racist. there is no greater damnation in modern america than to be a racist. when given the choice between alleging allegiance to this new cult and being tarred with the scarlet r, americans are choosing to bend the knee. that is what creates this new

culture of fear in this country. host: this is sharon. sharon is in delaware, republican line. caller: i voted for trump twice, but i don't think i can do it the third time. i am tired of the whining and complaining, his policies were right on. we were in good spot for those four years. everybody is at each other's throats. i have friends who don't talk to me anymore and there is no good reason for it. some are military which it is a crying shame what is happening there under this administration. it is black-white. the black community is waking up. even ice cube is saying this is not right, the country is going in the wrong direction. host: if not president trump, then him -- then whom?

caller: i like -- host: the one we just heard from, vivek? have you known about him for a while? caller: he was in the trump administration, i followed him somewhat, but not very closely. i like him telling it like it is. that's not to be at each other's throats. we all live in this country together. we all have to be successful. the way this is going, i am worried for my kids' and grandkids' future. we have chicago over the weekend, for example. when are people going to talk about that, the young lives lost every single day in this country? it is not more can control, how about leadership? host: mary is next from arizona

-- larry is next from arkansas. go ahead. caller: i have got one main issue i am interested in with the candidates. it is the interest on the debt. i cannot believe people have such little regard for future generations. for over 15 years, we have been paying over $1 billion per day on the interest on the debt. i have been working for 15 years, paying taxes, i don't get an invisible airplane, big battleship, i don't get a concrete bridge, i don't get clean water, i get interest on the debt. you know what you get? you don't get anything. caller: who is the best candidate to deal with those fiscal issues? host: there are none yet.

none of them have addressed that. none of them have addressed that problem. your children, your grandchildren, your great grandchildren are going to pay for ever -- forever on the debt. they are paying taxes, they are not getting anything for it. guest: let's go to -- host: let's go to brian in new york. go ahead. caller: i am set on joseph robinette biden. i love the guy. i got the cardboard cutout from c-span store in my living room. after the midterms, to suggest any other democrat is ludicrous. marion livingston -- marion williams is a nice lady, but it is not happening. it have of policies she is

advocating for, there needs to be so much groundwork -- groundwork that she would be better working with biden than trying to go with him. all of the stuff about the swamp creatures and going to get in there and fix the whole system, i wish it worked that way but it doesn't. joe biden is in there and he had a successful first two years. i would tell the last caller to look up the infrastructure bill he got passed. host: let's hear from teresa, republican line. caller: i simply want to say that i am 1000% for president trump. he is a brilliant man. host: go ahead with your thoughts please.

teresa, are you still there? one more time for teresa. let's go to matt in florida. caller: ron desantis is a fraud. the reason i say that is he is not following federal law. host: as far as 2024, who would be your choice? caller: none of them, they are all frauds. host: thank you to all of you who participated in this first hour. coming, two guests joining us on topics not only when it comes to the government to the government but immigration as well. our first guest is the author and former chair of the ohio democratic party, david pepper. he has a new book, "saving democracy: a user's manual for every american." we will talk about the themes in that book. later on, a discussion of the southern border following the

lifting of title 42. that will be with right enjoyed -- with brandon judd. we will have those conversations went "washington journal >> c-span's campaign 2024 coverages your firm receipt to the presidential election watch our coverage of the candidates with meet and greets, features and events to make up your on mind campaign 2024 on the c-span network. or anytime online at c-span.org. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. ♪ >> this 1979 in partnership with

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unfiltered view. keep up with hearings from the u.s. white house events, campaigns in more on the world of politics. all at your fingertips. stay up with the latest episodes of "washington journal" and c-span radio plus a variety of podcasts. c-span now available at the google store. c-span now your front row seat to washington anytime anywhere. >> "washington journal" continues. host: david pepper served from 2015 to 2021. the user's for every american david pepper, welcome back to the program. guest: thank you, good to be with you again. host: you said it was a

continuation of things that you explored in your last book. can you springboard that for us as far as why you wrote this book? guest: sure. it's about how statehouses are so gerrymandered, so rigged that that is where so much of the attack on democracy is taking place. people enjoyed it but they say it's so disturbing to see what's happening in these states. i would skip to the end to get the solutions. i thought i would just write a book that is basically about what you can do about it. i'm sure your listeners and callers agree with that. if all you do is watch tv in washington and you watch the meltdown we are watching around the country, you are under the impression there is nothing you can do about it. that you just have to sit and

watch investigations or some campaign far away and the point of this book is to say the battle for democracy is happening all over the country which means it's where you live. it, literally, where you live. you are on the front lines of where ever you live. if it's where you live, there are many things you can do about it. you usually don't hear about those things. here is a book that will walk you through what you can do, how you can do it and it even points you to organizations that might be helpful for people like you who want the same thing. i hear a lot of stories about individuals who decided to take on a school board they were worried about or infer office in a district that had no competition. so have it be a users manual so people can actually act upon the frustration and not sit there and watch it all happen and feel like they are powerless.

host: did you develop this from experiences you gained there in ohio? guest: partly some things i thought i did well. if people haven't read that it walks through the problem. it's not about a few individuals in washington. it's what is happening in state to statehouses. literally most of the roles of democracy as i wrote that book, and i wrote it a lot about ohio where i'm from as sort of a case study of the problem. i started to get emails and i started to do zoom calls all over the country with groups and people and i also learned a lot

from those meetings about their stories and what they were doing. i took as many examples as i could of people who are doing great things. people adopting a state house and really helping candidate, that made a difference in michigan and pennsylvania this last year. other people are figuring out how to use a nonprofit to really engage voters who have been disenfranchised. people who are willing to stand up and go to the school board meeting and say we don't want you to ban books here. a lot of people i met since the last book who not only are inspiring but showing that activism at the local level can work. a lot is informed by those stories. i use these stories to make it acceptable so readers see we don't have to wait for some u.s. senator to save the day. there are everyday people doing

things so i can do the same thing. a lot of it comes from interacting with people even in this covid world i managed to meet all these people who are doing great things. i use a lot of their stories as well. host: you use an analogy in describing some of the cases you apply. generally assumes that american democracy is intact, that it's stleoming on to write most are poised by a second assumption. they are confident it reflects a broader preference of america's suburban majority, can you elaborate? guest: i try and explain i actually do think there are different battles going on in american politics. everything breaks down along party lines. i don't think it's just party.

there is force democracy and willing to live with the results of a fair democratic system. i think this does assume too often and for too long that democracy is sort of automatically intact. and this site assumes we have good ideas, most people if we run a strong election every two years in federal office we will win and that's their battle. there is a side, and it's not just one party. that really they are not hiding the ball. they are undermining democracy directly in state. that is literally what they are going after because they have generally a lot of views that will not win in a fair democracy. abortion bans with no exception, may be 10% or fewer of your viewers agree with it. doing nothing about the gun violence is something that 10% or fewer of gun owners agree with it can go out and have a

bunch of elections on its views, it would lose. so this site is going into statehouses where they can gerrymander their statehouses to keep in place a viewpoint that actually wouldn't win an election. the reason i use the soccer analogy, the second side of this is on offense around this country. winning statehouses, gerrymandering like ohio and all these other states and the other side is largely focused on federal elections in certain swing states. so the second side, they are on offense all the time. honestly, not only on offense it's often not on defense. it's allowing 50% for example of the tennessee republicans who voted out those two state reps didn't even have an election last year. they were not contested.

there is one site on offense and the other side doesn't even play defense. my theory, is that's why it's losing. as i mentioned in the book my sons are nine and six. they play soccer. they know why that team is losing. if one team is taking all the shots and no one is blocking the shot, asking for a better goalie isn't going to solve the problem. you have to go on offense and you have to block the shots. i hope that is an easy to understand model for way one side seems to be losing even when they are winning federal elections pretty regularly. host: if you want to ask questions about the themes of his book (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. independents (202) 748-8002. you can send us a text message at (202) 748-8003.

mr. pepper, it was newsweek that highlighted themes you might talk about in your book. jackson florida voters voted donna deacon. she came in with the concept of the underdog. they also point to pennsylvania where that special election if democrats 102 seats needed to control the agenda there in the house of representatives. at least a part theme in your book? guest: great question. those are the front lines that i am talking about in the book. the pennsylvania special election would have determined the house majority in pennsylvania which is a huge deal. i write my book with optimism that although the team that cares for democracy has been outmaneuvered for a long time,

it has been sort of not even on defense for a long time there are -- there isn't infrastructure growing that they have to change their battle. just like last november you suffer the first am in decades there was a midterm where democrats had the white house. they were supposed to do poorly in the statehouse and statewide elections that happened that type of year but last november you saw democrats pick up the michigan state house the michigan senate, the pennsylvania state house and had other big wins. you also saw election deniers running for secretary of state all around the country. not a single one won in a swing state. and they underperformed other republicans on the ballot at the same time. you are starting to see and this is why i write my book with optimism.

if we figure it out and scaling up easter to see this infrastructure build up that doesn't only focus on federal races. of course you want to win senate and house seats but on the other side is using statehouses to do all of their dirty work, you're not winning. the pennsylvania state house and another one like that, the was consists -- the wisconsin supreme court. people were focusing on a supreme court they probably never would have bothered before because people are starting to see these are the offices that long-term shape democracy. the federal government plays a role. but that wisconsin supreme court which can stop gerrymandering. the statehouse in pennsylvania which can advance democracy or suppress it depending on who's in charge. one way to know that for too

long we talked about the offices in the wrong way is we often say this is the bench as if the only value these offices is that someone may run for something else this is not a bench. if people do a great job the state representative protecting democracy or protecting rights in that statehouse i don't care if they ever run for anything else in there life, they are in the front lines. operations on the others, an outfit called alik they don't view these as the bench they view these as the most important part of their infrastructure because it's the part that shapes democracy in america for everybody. host: our first call is burning in kentucky, democratic line. bernie, good morning you are on with our guest. caller: good morning.

really love the name of the book. i really hope it's going to be on audio at some point. since you are from ohio i am wondering have you had any dealings or thoughts about him? i changed my party affiliation in 2015 just so i could vote for him in the primaries. i had this fantasy that trump in the primaries would have to worry about the general election. one other question, what would happen if a third-party candidate came through and no one received 270 electoral votes? host: that's bernie in kentucky starting us off. guest: the first thing is i'm really glad you like the title.

someone told me no one ever reads users manuals. i think for this topic i intentionally through that into the subtitle because i just think most people are watching in frustration. often times when i watch tv i'm thinking about all those viewers and when it gets to the interviews for the host says democracy is under attack what can people do? they say vote and stand up and talk about it. those things may be helpful but they're so much more you can do. it's not that hard to do and it's not just helping someone in a swing state. it's right where you are. the reason i use that title is to make it clear, now i want to make it clear it's not a users manual with only technical stuff. i hope it's interesting to read. i use a lot of narratives to get

you through it but by the way at the end of every chapter i have a worksheet so everyone reading can go through their own life and think about this is how i can lift democracy. i never thought being part of the food bank could help democracy but it can. every single person who goes to the food bank should be registered to vote as they do so or the homeless shelter. i try to give you the tools to walk through in you rlife. and that is the point. the quote about the waves rippling off building an ocean of power. we will save democracy if all of us find within ourselves a way to do more. and it doesn't involve going to find new things the point of the book is it actually involves

taking things in your life you are already doing and incorporating putting democracy into those things. it tries to be a users manual on what you do in life where you work where you go to church, your community there is so much you can do if you think about it. honestly most people just don't think about it that way. i think there's been an interesting evolution and i think he represents a lot of people. i'll be honest he was pretty conservative when he started out as governor i didn't agree with him on most things. he's a lot of -- involved in a lot of ways. calling out extremism or calling out trump or something i'm glad to see it. i think one of the problems on the republican side has been too

few republicans either they agree with trump and people have a right to or they don't but they've been --they have not stood up. the reason he took over the party is because so many unlike john casey have not had the backbone to stand up. the lesson is unless you stand up it's the other person that is the only voice in the room. when trump went on the escalator he was not taken as a serious candidate. when all those other candidates wouldn't stand up to him or say anything in disagreement all of a sudden he's in charge and he still is. i'm sure a lot of your viewers don't like me very much but for someone like me who's looking for some courage and feel the lack of courage among those who know better has been a real crisis i give them credit even though i don't agree i give them a lot of credit for

having the courage to stand up. host: let's go to howard in texas, republican line. caller: good morning, how y'all doin? seems like this guy israel and to republican for some reason. if you don't want to stand up the last election was not right. for four years y'all tried to overturn an election. you try to overturn the bush election. when are some democrats going to stand up, also in tennessee wasn't that insurrection? for some reason you don't want to admit that and when are democrats going to stand up because this president is hurting our nation. you got to admit that he is hurting our nation. it's not for the better he supposed to be uniting. i don't know what he's done.

host: that's howard there in texas. guest: thanks for the question. obviously, i don't agree. i'm all about fair and legitimate elections. i think the data is pretty clear what happened in november 2020. joe biden one quite decisively. i'm working every day to make sure we include everybody going forward as well. obviously, we agree to disagree on joe biden. if you look closely, i see even republicans in ohio right now bragging every day that ohio has the lowest unemployment numbers ever. that's actually happening all over the country because when you invest in infrastructure, give the middle-class a base economy, the economy works well. i think that's because of national policies that now are playing out around the country.

i forget the name but the general from texas if you look at every single governor right now around the country all of them are bragging about how low their unemployment rate is. do you think that's because each governor is doing an amazing job or do you think it's because of national policies working? i think it's because general policies are working. i think joe biden, the record is actually quite strong. there are other things we need to work on and i do agree we remain to divided. my hope is it may be tough during the primary cycle, the presidential cycle but obviously we have a lot of work to do but i think on the facts, watch every governor in the country when they talk about their state they are bragging about how great things are and all of us should figure out it's because there are national policies that are working and they actually

pulled this out a couple years ago. host: ohio has eight republican governor and legislature. things working in your state is or is what's going on. guest: our republican legislature is a disaster. we are literally about to see the speaker of the house convicted. now he's going to be sentenced for the biggest bribery scandal our republican legislature is the case study of what happened. this is something i hope all republicans and democrats can agree on. whenever you have people in power, because the districts are rigged so they cannot lose meaning there is no accountability, it's bad. it's benefits in texas, ohio, or if it happens in a blue state. it's a disaster for the people. that is what ohio is living

through. extremism does not reflect upper faith. we are seeing lawlessness. they violated the constitution seven times in one year you draw themselves districts they cannot lose. your gentleman from texas anytime you have a politician who are in the midst of corruption scandals literally keeping themselves in power not by winning over the voters with policy but by literally drawing districts that guarantee reelection it's a broken system. that's what ohio is suffering right now. we are the state that forced a 10-year-old rape victim to go to indiana to get abortion access because in ohio it wasn't allowed even though 60% of people in ohio support roe v. wade. when you see these broken corrupt statehouses, their basic mo is public goods to private

players. nowhere is it more clear then ohio taking public-school dollars and giving it to things like online scam that wasn't even taking attendance while public schools paid a bill. because of a broken steakhouse, you are seeing estate that has the fifth or sixth highest rank schools 15 years ago now in the mid-20's. we have the highest student debt in the entire country. when you get a broken statehouse, and it's corrupted, it actually stops being a public service. it sort of a private service. you see a decline in public outcomes that even a great state like ohio can't live through. so we are seeing a dramatic downfall in most public outcomes. the population, the young people leaving.

we have a governor who i would say is not quite as extreme as this broken corrupt the house -- statehouse but he is not willing to stand up. he refuses to not go along with them. he goes along with all they are saying and doing even though he's better than they are so he ends up being an accomplice. i was at a protest a few weeks ago. people in ohio are very upset about how much the statehouse is broken. by the way a couple years ago when we had a referendum to fix the gerrymandering problem more than 70% also ported it that's how much people want to change in this broken system that is the ohio statehouse. it's not just ohio. this is at civil state houses across the country. host: david pepper joining us.

the user's manual for every american if you are from cincinnati, this is dave, good morning. caller: [indiscernible] talk about sharon brown. the democrat in ohio. they got that bridge crossed. that was a good accomplishment. that something that we know more about. state-by-state at the local level is just corrupted everything. it's about the money.

the supreme court got involved in gerrymandering. i hope you get back in politics i like to see you run again. guest: thank you, dave. i used to be on city council in the county commission. sharon brown is a great example of how you win ohio. i think he's got a great chance this year. kentucky's governor is a truly remarkable figure. he is a younger democrat in the state of kentucky the most popular democratic governor in the country in his own state and

to me he's a great model of all these people who know all about public service. like sarah palin i can see kentucky from my house. i can see bashir lead. he is just exuding public service. he doesn't pull punches it's working in kentucky you think he would be in trouble because it's normally a republican state. he's up for election this year and i think we will do well because he's just a public servant and i think it's a good sign don't fall for all the negative stuff. if you're a candidate or officeholder look at governor beshear you will see that people even in swing states or red states like kentucky when they see someone who is true to public service they rally around him. governor beshear has had to be

through covid. he had a terrible shooting in louisville. he's had terrible natural disasters. he's just led and people reported that public leadership. i joke about this they didn't have to read my book. because they've done it for 30 years. my first book is laboratories of hypocrisy and that's not just a cute title. they were sort of suggesting the states are working in concert with something really anti-democratic in florida it shows up in ohio it shows up in texas it shows up in tennessee and one in particular were needing a lot of these states. many of the laws are not written in the state they are written in some conference room.

so it feels like all these attacks on democracy are happening all over and they look really simmer is because that is what happening they figured out a long time ago that the key to democracy in this country and the places that shape almost every issue we care about are the states and statehouses. running their agenda through washington where everyone is paying attention and where thank you can get --it can get backed up they are much better going through statehouses were nobody pays attention to what is going on. they can gerrymander these places and there's no accountability and they can run through all sorts of unpopular vase and no one can stop them. the reason i wrote my second book is to say we can stop them but not without our strategy of focusing on swing states for federal office. we can stop it if we go to the statehouses where their battle

is. that battle starts with you if you are frustrated. don't allow the uncontested district to be uncontested ever again. run for it yourself or find your most impressive front and get them to run for it and help them. help make sure the voters who have been disenfranchised, help them get reengaged. be an election official. go to the statehouse and lobby when they try and attack there are so many things you can do especially when you realize it's not just about washington. it's actually about where you live, that is the front line as they look to undermine democracy for their agenda so make it your frontline as well. when you happen to be standing on that front line every single day. host: richard, independent line.

caller: i'm kind of curious about the gerrymandering. apparently they are set based on the census and the census is taken every decade. the last one was 2020. the thing that i've noticed about the democrats, they don't put an emphasis on state and legislative positions. they focus more on senatorial and presidential elections. what ended up happening is they got control of the legislature here in ohio for the next 10 years. the democratic party is going to have that amount of time and part of the party here in ohio during the 2020 census and stuff like that where was the emphasis basically on getting state legislatures selected so you didn't have to come up with this gerrymandering stuff? and what was your role in this? thank you. guest: i served as chair of the

party through 20. every day i think about what i could've done better and what i didn't do right. we all have accountability for good and bad. i was proud that when i was chair it was the first time we actually picked up statehouse seats. we had more statehouse seats then we started when i was chair. at one point we had zero supreme court justices, when we were done we had a moderate court three democrats, independent chief justice. democrats actually, and i give a lot of credit to the statehouse leaders although they were gerrymandered the minority leaders of the statehouse you're in ohio you may know them they fought very hard for fair districts. what happened in ohio was not about policy. it was about lawbreaking. i know republican listeners are going to want to leave this\ --

believe this the ohio supreme court's struck down seven different times as unconstitutional violating the same constitution the statehouse leaders taken out to the maps of the republicans drew in 2021. the democrats did fight hard and we were part of the scene that change the constitution in the first place. i was proud to be part of that as well. the republicans literally broke the law seven times and in the end got away with it. there are things, looking back, i would do differently myself which other people had to differently but in this case what we have is an absolute breakdown of the rule of law. the democrats pointed out it was illegal, it was found to be illegal and to no surprise the most corrupt statehouse in the country continue to be corrupt and voted in place maps.

you are sitting in a state that the maps currently violate the constitution but they violated it for so long when courts that they may be unconstitutional we have to have an election so we will have them on each individual map. democrats did fight part here but i do agree with the caller. we are far too focused on a few federal races and not on statehouse braces. i went through it before with pager at the very beginning. often times we are not challenging these graces we are not contesting these races. voting for insane or extreme loss that don't reflect their state or even their district. that they don't even have an election the next november, what do we think they're going to do?

those voters, i mean sorry this politicians the only thing they worry about in their entire career is the next primary if they don't have a general election. the only way they lose their next primary is if someone more extreme runs against them. when you have the systems with zero accountability because of gerrymandering, every incentive in their role is to be more extreme not more mainstream. that's why we see this downward spiral. overall, i agree. we picked up statehouse seats. it was literally a group of people that got away with breaking the law numerous times. there will be a new set of maps being negotiated and we will have to make a lot of noise to make sure those aren't illegal as well. host: joe, republican line. caller: hello.

i have a couple of quick things i want to run through. i like c-span to evaluate all independent voters. i classify myself in that category. second, our favorite democrat is harry reid. i'd like for your guest to compare him with the cook brothers which one would you rather have. i don't know why is not getting air. he can handle the view, he's a fresh individual out there. host: thank you you, joe.

guest: he gets a whole lot of press. he actually is from cincinnati, like i am. i don't think the press is corrupt. i think the problem right now is that the press is falling apart financially. one of the reasons the statehouse has become this amazing place to do really bad stuff is because there's not enough press to cover it. i go through this in both of my books. you get 20 bills to come forward now we actually still have a pretty robust one in ohio but of lot of states have two or three reporters for the entire statehouse. they don't have the capacity to keep up with half of one of the statehouse's. it's perfect because you can pass tons of things at the state level offices and very few people even know about it it's

even worse. when you have a small local paper. the paper that would cover the local state reps and expand to the people of that smaller rural community here is what your state rep past, that's fun. you have a lack of awareness of what statehouses are doing and you have no warning whatsoever. it creates the perfect environment that allows these places to do awful things. if you read the news every day, i quibble with articles or stories but overall the biggest right now is the mainstream traditional press is really struggling and one way i put it is one challenge in this current environment is we have to pay to get the truth through press,

generally. a lot of information is being sent to us for free. we have a mismatch between how easy it is to get that information. it's harder to get good information and the people who are dedicated, the small local papers dedicated to really finding the facts it's getting harder and harder for them to make it through. that mismatch is one of the reasons we have such a divide. there is such, it's so hard to track down the truth these days in this environment. host: i assume some of the statehouse afflictions you are talking about they happened on all presidential year cycles. voter turnout drops how do you improve those numbers getting more people to the polls? guest: no offense but you don't

call them off years. once you call them off years, what's a signal we sent to voters? we say something is an off year. here's what i say, do you care about democracy? two years after the presidential election you are voting on the statehouse. those are the positions that the current democracy probably the president in your state or your congress so you care about democracy, there is no more on year then that year. when we see people rally around the wisconsin supreme court race what we see is when people understand the democracy at st ake, they actually do rally. we can talk about these as being the bench for something else. when we say off year, it's not

made democracy this is the race that will determine democracy in your state. it's not mid anything. we have to organize. one thing i would say the democrats to wrong we shut everything down after the presidential election. we don't really build up again unless there happens to be a senate race until the next presidential election. we encourage that it must not be as important. we have to have an infrastructure that's continuous. in our own work we never send a signal that somehow that election isn't important. you mentioned the jacksonville race. i was on the city council. there is no more direct service than when it comes to public safety or education. the school board city council, look at all the debates about

education right now. these are also frontline democracy positions. we need to use not only opera language but our infrastructure to emphasize it all matters. that's one theme of this book. it's a long battle for democracy. it never stops. so much more work can be done, it's sent every year. not just any afflictions themselves. every viewer can hear what i'm talking about. you can go to any nonprofit and get them to be registered voters tomorrow. host: this is from ohio co. it democrat line,. caller: it's iowa. >> iowa, i'm sorry. caller: i was going to say trump supporters, he just plays it stupid. the best thing he did as

president was put jeff sessions as his attorney general. who brags more about jeff sessions? trump. not even nancy pelosi or chuck schumer that stuff like trump did. they talk about illegals. host: we have just a few minutes left with our guest do you have a question directly for our guest? caller: not really. i was going to ask you, there's a guy in iowa that does a bunch of commercials that doesn't say democrat or republican. host: i apologize we have to

move on. let's go to mike in missouri, independent line. caller: thank you for taking my call. i would agree that our democracy is under threat. i do plan to read the book that you are pretraining there. i feel that the biggest threat to our democracy is the mainstream media. i would like your guest to comment on that because it feels as though whether it's abc, nbc, cbs, msnbc, cnn, they are all political arms of the democratic party. they control the narrative as to what the american people hear and in a lot of cases what they don't hear. even c-span has the american people and i would like to hear you comment on mainstream media

and how it is that they are really a threat to our democracy. host: mr. pepper? guest:thank you. i'm glad he is taking a look at the book. missouri is living through a downward spiral as any state. i hear of lot from missourians there is a lot to do there. honestly i just don't agree. certainly different media outlets sometimes have a certain may be political bent. others i think are more neutral. a lot of this comes out of a change in years ago. people consorted out we have seen one media operation get pummeled in the last couple of months because they were caught lying. that's not good for anybody. hopefully that accountability

makes sure everyone is keeping as close to the truth as they can. i would say my problem with the media is there is so much focus on washington. the media is leaving, not people working on this, when kevin mccarthy walks on the hallway in congress there are 100 reporters following him and each one of them is going to get an individual skip. that's not going to happen. take two thirds of those reporters send them to all the state capitals around the country you will find a lot of trauma and a lot of stories and scandals but you will also cover where democracy is being attacked better than chasing mccarthy done to get the same quote. i think the media has to start see what i'm talking about. democracy is under attack, that's the big story. there's got to be away to spend resources to cover the story.

my guess is you will find a lot of good stories and get better ratings than the same everyone covering the same statement. host: " thinking democracy: a user's manual." mr. pepper, think for joining s. guest: i really enjoyed it. host: we will talk about immigration issues with brandon judd. we will talk about the conditions after the lifting of title 42 for the next half hour, open forum: right now (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans and independents. (202) 748-8002. we will continue to take those calls on open forum when "washington journal" continues. ♪

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find all of our podcasts by downloading the free c-span now cap. c-span.org/podcasts. >> "washington journal" continues. >> if you want to text as you can do that at (202) 748-8003 you can post on facebook, post on twitter is well. many of the papers talking about details of this deal that was reached over the weekend on the debt ceiling usa today wraps up the highlights of it when it comes to the deal spending caps for two years the deal will keep discretionary funding keeping the nondefense level flat raising it by 1% in 2025 stating the biggest sticking point is a top priority for republicans. then six years of negotiations continue echoes on to talk about

the work requirements the final agreement would overhaul the supplemental nutrition assistance program by setting time limits for how long able-bodied adults without dependent children could receive food stamps if they do not meet certain work requirements but in open for the white house it would expand food benefits for homeless and veterans and this talks about irs funding usa today highlighting the fact that another statute it would rollback $80 billion approved in inflation reduction act last year that was designed to crackdown on wealthy americans and corporations. the legislation goes to the house rules committee today in which they have the thought out of that committee to head to the floor. if you want to see the process play out that is scheduled around 3:00 this afternoon. you can follow along on our networks, you can follow along

on our c-span now cap and are website at c-span.org. we are waiting to hear from the president later on. there will be information about the house was committee if you want to follow along there. asking questions about the latest on the debt limit here is part of that. [video clip] >> it will pass congress but we know i never say unconfident but i feel very good about it i've spoken to a number of the members i spoke to opens of people. we will see what it looks like. why doesn't biden say what a big deal it is? you think that's going to help? no.

anyway. >> we've had for stills. [indiscernible] >> yes. >> no questions? >> not in the real world, there is no reason why it couldn't get done by the sixth. we will see. host: june 5 the new x-date so to speak of this part as the ceiling is concerned and from his perspective, speaker mccarthy has an op-ed in the wall street journal this morning which the government doesn't have to keep growing you can find it and online. sopping inflationary spending while fully funding national defense meeting our obligations for preserving social security.

thus is part of the op-ed from kevin mccarthy again. 3:00 this afternoon as the house rules committee watch for that and see what happens there and follow along on the network, the app code and be.org. good morning, democrat line, you are first. caller: good morning for allowing me to speak. my concern is that those political parties are like the national enquirer. i remember seeing photos that were spliced together, outrageous lies. aliens and all that. the media they are openly lying to the people. it's just outrageous of how the

common good has left being a part of something that's important to either party. but the party line seems to be much more significant then justice and figuring this out if it's the other side than we are against it. but they will lie to the point that people are not cared for at all. we will look the public in the face and just lie. host: that's devon in ohio. republican line in ohio, you're next. caller: our family never had a car, we never had inside plumbing, we used an outhouse at the best but we did go to church

on saturday morning and i remember asking my mother about what does it mean that i should not help covet they neighbors goods. >> you're going to run into people all your life that have more money than you do. you can go through life hating them and your life will be better it won't, your hotdog will not taste any better if some rich person loses everything they have a labeled their neighbors goods, its jealousy, it's a sin. that's all they talk about. we will text the vault, if the bridge didn't have so much i heard one more on say -- moron

say 90% of the people own america that's not true. illinois you try to tell these farmers to sell our reserve thing you're going to have a problem. host: let's hear from matt in dallas, texas. democrat line. caller: good morning. first of all i want to say i just watch some of the program. i just watch all the stuff that you talked about. i wanted to comment on the best democrat being unhappy with the work of the primary. best of all you do not want to

see what happens with the united states falls. i hope the house takes it up quickly and this is a good deal. host: you can see that at 3:00 this afternoon, thinking it through the perspective text news coming out of texas reported by ks a n out of austin. no leader -- the action follows the appointment members who will serve prosecutors during the trial. lieutenant governor dan patrick also listing seven senators that will outline the rules for the trial to proceed. committee members are tasked with bringing forth the rules of procedure they establish during the meeting of the full senate, set for june 20, when they will

decide what it will take to convene as court of impeachment. more if you want to read at kxan, the local television station, about the lieutenant governor. when it comes to the debt ceiling, "the washington post" offering more details of what needs to happen in order to get it passed in the house. speaker mccarthy needs majority of the majority or half of 220 republicans to bring the bill to the floor. he could lose up to 111 members of his own party but then would need 107 democratic votes to pass the bill. house republicans have begun to reach out to members who have publicly expressed opposition as well as others who could be convinced. leaders of each of the republican ideological factions work aiming to get a stance of where leaders stood.

watch out as far as the debt ceiling is concerned. let's hear from woodbridge, virginia. tom on the republican line. caller: good morning. i kind of want to hit on a couple of quick things. first off, the compromise on the debt limit. they are taking care of veterans and homeless and they are keeping national defense at its status level. that is all wins. they are cutting money for the irs to go after american citizens. that is all good. i think it is a strong victory for conservatives in america. the main reason i was calling in, i turned off cnn, i don't know, 20 years ago. about 2016 when i realized they were not news programs at all. that is a lie, a myth.

they are entertainment. they are liberal and conservative entertainment channels. if you are watching those programs, turn them off. if you think you are getting news, go instead -- only listen to c-span. you only get news and current events. nobody is trying to convince you to believe anything. there is no doubt about it that the mainstream media is cnn, fox news, etc. virtually all the internet. 85% is a lie or trying to influence you to buy something. you have got to turn that stuff off and only go to c-span. host: ok. let's go to absalom, washington, d.c. on the democrats line. caller: i wanted to make a point

about the previous caller who talked about this issue from a christian perspective. he was saying you do not covet somebody else's property. i would remind him of a couple of things. one is that jesus said, "send unto caesar that which is caesar's, and send unto god what is god's." we have to assume the role -- government has to assume the role that it has to provide. when the rich man came to jesus and asked how could he follow jesus, he told the rich man, sell everything you got and give it to the poor and then you can follow me. he said it would be difficult for a rich man to get into

heaven as a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. we have a disparity in terms of income in this country and one of the roles of government is to eliminate that disparity or reduce it as much as possible. host: that's absalom in washington, d.c. a new trade deal was struck between the united states and several asian nations. according to the headline, the supply chain agreement is part of the biden administration's effort to work closely with allies and friendly nations in the asian-pacific under the indo pacific economic framework. a covers issues like digital trade, clean energy, and tax policies to counter china. under the new packed the countries will work together to strengthen supply chains in critical sectors and set up a mechanism to prevent and respond to emergencies, similar to the semiconductor shortages during the covid-19 pandemic.

more at "the wall street journal." this is from patricia in michigan, republican line. caller: good morning. can you please give me a few minutes to say what i have to say? i am an elderly woman and have been able to listen and watch throughout the years. i noticed how much they have achieved an accomplished in our society. but as situations changed so did their morals. they have become the most vindictive, judgment to, and cruel, especially to other women. what do you think the doctors of these women -- daughters of these women have been taught? as an example, some of them watch "the view." they are like a pack of wolves waiting for the next prey and i'm sure their fans sitting in

front of them are women. i'm sure men are not sitting there clapping like trained seals. why do they have teeth? they never show them. remove them and they would have more room to spill the special. host: thank you. sandy from maryland. caller: i love c-span but wish you had more original programming and not rerun the same stuff. as far as the debt ceiling, i want to see who has backbone and who does not. the former republican party is dead. they are dead. it is very sad. the people who got loan forgiveness for the ppe, pole that back -- pull that back. marjorie taylor greene, mr. mccarthy, who has never been able to tell the truth and all

he wants to be is on my power. what about the $7 million he claims? he is a liar like his daddy. host: you think president biden did the right thing coming to the steel? caller: no. host: why not? caller: he never spoke, he never did anything. he gave in and joe manchin, vindictive joe manchin. he got his way after all after voting everything against because he was like a five-year-old. he was mad at joe because of something with the ira. i find it so ridiculous and i think they should vote down this plan. host: i will invite you to follow along because it is original programming and as far as the debates that will go on in washington leading up to the

result of the debt crisis. he saw that legislative text come out. now you see the next step today. our cameras will be there at the house rules committee as they look at what has been proposed by president biden and house speaker mccarthy. you heard stories about certain republicans not happy with his deal as well as democrats. you can see that at 3:00 this afternoon on c-span3. you can follow along at c-span now or c-span.org if you want to see this play out in real time. especially as republicans are going to try to get it to the house floor later this week should be passed. just to show you the bloomberg headline as the caller referenced, senator joe manchin gets mountain valley pipeline deal. it includes language from the larger permit bill and that pipeline carrying gas from west virginia to virginia. that is bloomberg's reporting on

the tangents of what is going on. if you want to see the text of the legislation, go to c-span.org. we set aside a special section where you can take a look at what has been proposed by the parties involved. that being up for debate later this week. florida independent line, angela, you are on. caller: hi there. this would be a question for your next speaker will talk about the border crisis, but i figure i might not get through so i would put it out in the form of a question and comment. what i'm wondering on this and other major issues, when did the federal government start tracking it? the numbers coming across, where they are coming from, how hard we try to communicate with folks? everybody has a phone now and i know there is fake media, but how hard we try to keep them aware of what our conditions are, with the situation is at our border? our communication with mexico and other countries from which

people are coming. i have not seen anything like this that gives me good knowledge of what our government knows and how hard they are trying to plan based on the facts of the situation. i hope your speaker will address that. thank you. host: that is angela. (202)-748-8000 for democrats, republicans (202)-748-8001, and independents (202)-748-8002. out of pittsburgh the federal jury trial of the suspect in the nation's deadliest anti-semitic attack getting underway this morning. for .5 years after the shooting death of 11 worshipers at a pittsburgh synagogue. more than 200 jury candidate were interviewed to hear the case. the jury includes 11 men and seven women. he could face the death penalty if convicted of the 63 counts he

faces at the tree of life synagogue. that is reporting by the associated press. let's hear from charlene in california. your next. caller: good morning. someone from illinois was talking about how the hotdogs would not taste different if they gave it to somebody else. they do taste different because they took it from indigenous people and worked the slaves for free. nobody should take anything from anybody. it is what has been taken from everybody in this world, that is the problem. people are now able to voice this. as for the democratic party, they are nothing but undercover greedy republicans trying to capitalize on big petroleum, the

coal mine. they need to take everything from joe manchin and give it to the poor people in west virginia. host: that is charlene in california. "the washington post" reporting on uganda's passing of legislation called the anti -homosexuality act, that punishes those found guilty of aggravated homosexuality with death. broadly defined by legislators to include offenses that range from having a sex with minor to seducing someone through misrepresentation. it also imposes life imprisonment as punishment for anyone found to perform a sexual act with a person of the same gender and up to seven years in prison for "an intent to commit homosexuality." to give you a sense of what is going on elsewhere in the networks today, at 10:00 this morning an event sponsored on the israel defense strategy.

it will feature the director of the missile defense organization as he talks about the security strategy in air and missile defense. hosted by the center for strategic and international studies at 10:00 today on c-span, c-span now, and c-span.org. we were telling you about the debt ceiling. more today featuring economist mark zander. we will talk to him about the current goings-on in the negotiations of the debt ceiling. that is scheduled for 11:00 this morning on the main network, c-span, the app, and c-span.org. the house rules committee at 3:00 this afternoon on c-span3. you can watch them debate the goings-on as far as the text concerning the debt ceiling. we will hear from parker. parker is in indiana, democrats line. caller: so far as the debt ceiling, i think we should raise

it but we should also be paying off our debts to make sure this does not happen again. host: as far as the agreement as you have heard between the president and the house speaker, you are ok on what was agreed on broadly? caller: in theory, yes. host: what you mean by that? caller: i have not read anything on it but it seems it was more of a compromise. i am seeing republican-led things and-democrat led things. host: if you go to the washington times this morning, it talks about the electric vehicle goals put in place by the biden administration. the administration cannot say

how much progress, if any, it is making on the $5 billion initiative to build ev charges along america's highway system. electric vehicles are being part of achieving the president's ambitious goals but the nation's lack of public charging threatens to hobble the auto industry's transition away from gas guzzlers. the law established the national electric vehicle infrastructure program but neither the department of energy or transportation were able to produce statistics on how many new charging systems have been built with those funds. "the washington times" has that as the lead story. if you want to read that, you can go to their website. luanne in michigan, democrat line. caller: the democrats line? i'm a republican. host: sorry. i apologize. try to call back on the line

that represents you. (202)-748-8000 for democrats, (202)-748-8001 for republicans, and independents, (202)-748-8002 . president biden standing before a crowd talking about the historic and other meaningful events surrounding memorial day and it celebration. here is a portion from yesterday. [video clip] pres. biden: on this day we come together again to reflect, to remember, and above all to re-commit to the future our fallen heroes fought for. that generation of servicemembers who died for a future grounded in freedom, democracy, equality, tolerance, opportunity, and yes, justice. we use those words all the time

but what we have seen of late here and around the world they have to continue to be fought for. not just for some, but for all. this is more important than our system of government. it is the very soul of america. a soul that was forged by our nation's first patriots. the soul of the triumph over trials. a soul that endured because of the sacrifices of generations and generations of servicemembers ever since. together we are not just the fortunate inheritors, we must to be the keeper of the mission, the bearers of freedom.

that is the truest memorial to their lives. our actions every day to ensure democracy endures, the soul of our nation endures. host: if you want to see more of those remarks from the president, go over to our app and c-span now. if you have not downloaded it yet, go to the store of your choice and you can follow along in real time. we also archive events that we play on this program and other networks for short periods of time. that is c-span now. you can always follow along at c-span.org too. sarah in mississippi, democrats line. caller: yes, sir. in reference to the gentleman from cincinnati, the one running for president? host: yes. caller: that gentleman does not

know our history. don lyman was correct when he said that the national rifle association was formed for black men to have guns. that was when the history of the police came on the scene. first of all, we were not allowed to have guns and the overseers became the policeman. this man did not know our history. when we try to tell our way, other people want to speak for us. he needs to take a course in african-american studies. thank you. host: last call for this open forum. to all of you who participated, thank you for doing so. our next guest will talk about issues along the southern border with the lifting of title 42. brandon judd is the president of the national border patrol council and border patrol agent. he is joining us next on "washington journal." ♪

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joining us from arizona to talk about issues along the southern border. thank you for your time. guest: good to be with you. one correction, i am no longer an agent. i retired a month ago but i am still the president of the board. very much involved in everything that goes on. host: thank you for the clarification. one more point of clarification, it says you are in tucson but could you describe about where you are and why? guest: yeah. i am in the tucson, arizona sector. unfairly close to the border, not right on the border, but fairly close. host: could you explain? we heard a lot of scenarios that were supposed to happen after the end of title 42. give us your sense of what has gone on since then. guest: when we were on the border that day title 42 was supposed to end there were over 170,000 people camped out ready to cross the border. what we saw and what we

witnessed with the people crossing the border as they were being interviewed was the mexican military and the cartel work metering the number of people. they recognized it was going to be very bad for business if they would've crashed the border like expected. now what we have seen is we have seen the metering taper off and we see the numbers go back up. but if you look at the numbers right now, the numbers are still four times higher than what they should be. if you look back at the obama administration, secretary johnson said it was a bad day if we apprehended 1000 people. right now, we are between 3000 and 4000 people per day. we are three to four times higher than where we should be. when we are that high it creates gaps in coverage. we do not have the resources necessary because we are doing administrative duties. that creates gaps in coverage and when we have gaps, that is when we see the higher value

products like fentanyl, criminal aliens, those from special interest countries. that is when those people or products across our borders illegally. we have already apprehended 100 people on the terrorist watch list, smashing any previous record. this is still a very serious issue and if we do not get under control, it is my fear it is going to be americans that suffer. host: the department of homeland security puts out numbers concerning what are known as encounters. can you describe what an encounter is? guest: an encounter is somebody that crosses the border illegally and we take them into custody. we ultimately perform an arrest, we take them back to our border patrol station, we fingerprint them, we see if they have a criminal record in the u.s. that is all we can check. we can check the u.s. or interpol hit. we cannot check what it is in the home country. host: to those numbers for april, according to ths, the reported over 211,000 encounter

down from a high of 251,000. back to 2020, in april, 17,000 encounters. one of the best ways to understand the increases of numbers? guest: everything is about risk and reward. if people believe they can cross our borders illegally and be released into the united states, that means there is no consequences for violating our laws. even under title 42, we were only expelling 40% of the people crossing the borders illegally. therefore we were releasing 60%. when you have a six in 10 chance of being released into the u.s., you are going to cross the border. editing is based on that. all crime is predicated on risk and reward. when the reward is great and the risk is small, when you know you are going to be prosecuted, when you know all that is going to happen is be sent back across the border to try again, you are going to continue to try to come.

we have to have consequences for violations of law. when there are no consequences, you can expect violations to go up. host: as far as border patrol agents like yourself was, what is the day to day look like for title 42? guest: it is still the same as it was pre-title 42 because we do not have the resources to deal with the people crossing the borders. it is not just the numbers we are taking into custody. it is not those we are apprehending. it is the got away numbers. we continue to have approximately 1000 got aways, those that are able to evade apprehension. those of the ones running. they are the ones we have to chase. when that happens, you know, it takes our resources of the border. we can no longer properly control the border, we cannot go after the cartels, we cannot go after their products, we cannot go after their profit. if we could go after their profits, if we could shut down the cartel's operations, we

could keep the border safe and we cannot do that right now. host: you talked about as far as the numbers you are seeing right now, the bided administration -- biden administration put several things into action. have they been of some benefit as far as reducing the load or the amount coming to the border? guest: right now, we are not going to be able to tell because it is so new. anytime you have rhetoric you're are going to see ebbs and flows, even with president trump and president obama. they were based on political rhetoric in the united states. right now it is too early to say, yes, we have seen a dramatic drop from our high. but those highs were already created. we just never saw -- and we never would have dreamed -- we got to the numbers we are at. we are still three to four times higher than what we should be in any normal administration. it is going to be time before we

actually can say whether or not these regional processing centers are doing us any good. but right now, we are still three to four times higher. host: in your mind, what should change in order to reduce those numbers? guest: you have to have consequences. our loss say if you are in the united states illegally, you shall be removed. that is not happening right now. people are not being removed for being in the country illegally. they are crossing illegally, they are being released into the united states. until we actually start applying the law properly, until we start removing people, they are going to continue to come. we can talk about root causes. we can talk about political instability. we can talk about gang violence. we can talk about economic circumstances. all of that has been in these countries as long as i have been -- my 25 year career. nothing has changed as far as those root causes.

the main change that is happening is our policies in the united states. we have started releasing en ma ss those that cross our border illegally. that is why we saw the numbers shoot up. we have to properly enforce the laws and when we do that, we can expect the numbers to go down. host: brandon judd our guest until 10:00. if you want to ask him questions about his experiences on the southern border and his experience as president of the national border counsel, you can call the lines. (202)-748-8000 free democrats, (202)-748-8001 for republicans, and independents, (202)-748-8002 . if you want to text us, you can do that at (202)-748-8003. you talked about resources. if to see those numbers drop, can you say there is not enough resources, manpower, and woman power to achieve that? guest: that is correct. what you have to have is at

least 80% of your resources actively patrolling the border. right now, we are about 50% actively patrolling the border on any given day. depending on how many cross -- just two days ago we had 1200 apprehensions in one sector, the del rio sector. anytime that happens you are pulling 70% of your resources out of the border and you only have 30% actively patrolling. we cannot effectively control the border if you only have 50% to 30% of your resources actively patrolling. host: if you live in a border state, you can also choose that line to call us, (202)-748-8003. we saw the president send troops to the border to help in a background capacity. has that alleviated the workload any? guest: it has not. if you look at the mission they were set down, they are not able to come in contact with anybody that crosses the border illegally.

all of our administrative duties whether it is processing, hospital watch, transport, detention security, that requires us to come into contact with individuals in the country illegally. if these national guardsmen cannot do that, they are not freeing up our resources to patrol the border. we are still doing all of the administrative duties we would have done. i will say where they come in and where they have helped a great deal is in the medical screening. when we have to screen the individuals, that triage process, they are helping greatly. i'm going to be grateful for any resource we can get, but what we have to have is we have to have resources that are going to free up our agents to actually patrol the border and the national guard is not doing that. host: a little about your work with the council. describe what it is and who it is funded by. guest: the national border patrol council is the union that

represents all rank and file border agents. it is funded by the agents. if you look at the federal government, unions are about 45% organized. we are 90% organized. 90% of all rank and file border agents voluntarily pay dues so that we can properly represent them. host: let's hear from betty in illinois, democrats line. good morning. you are on. go ahead. caller: good morning. i'm so happy to hear this gentleman on this morning. i am 84-years-old and i had given up on the country. but i'm glad this gentleman is on. the people who do not want democracy, do they have grandchildren and great-grandchildren? i have great-great grandchildren and i do not like the way the country is going now. thank you, sir, for being on

this morning and god bless you. host: that was betty in illinois. guest: i appreciate that, and yes, i do have children and grandchildren. i do want a very strong democracy in the united states for those children to pass on so that they can also be raised in the greatest country that i believe exists in the world. but what makes us such a great country is the rule of law. the rule of law is what gives us opportunities. it does not restrict our freedoms, it grants our freedoms. but when we get away from rule of law, that is when we see restrictions. that is all we want. law enforcement nationwide, all we want to do is protect and serve the american people. there are a few bad apples and we have got to deal with those bad apples, but 99% of all the hunt enforcement, all they want to do is protect and serve the american people so that we do

have those freedoms and we can continue to live in the greatest country in the world. host: mario in texas, a border state. you are next. caller: good morning, y'all. i appreciate you trying to work with us here in texas and arizona, the border states, but i have got to let you know there is a million problems with our immigration system. whether it is how we treat these people that come into our country that are seeking an opportunity when their homes has been unjustly destroyed from our own imperial actions. it is gross how we are trying to change these people's lives and how we tried to destroy them and mentally manipulate the people who want to come to this country. they want to seek a better opportunity and hoping in another life.

whether it is el salvador, venezuela, anything like that. thank you very much. guest: i agree with legal emigration. the way we treat the people that cross the border illegally is humane. when we take individuals into custody, we treat them the best we possibly can. but we also have to enforce our laws. when people flee for economic reasons that is not, under our law, not proper asylum. i have no idea whether imperialism has destroyed other countries. i do not know there is evidence to prove that that has actually happened. i like to deal in actual facts we can see. we have a set of laws that we are supposed to enforce. we are not enforcing those laws right now. again, if some he enters our country illegally, our laws say they shall be removed. we are not doing that right now.

we are not following our laws. i can tell you those that cross illegally, we treat them as humanely as we possibly can given the circumstances we have. they violated our law, we have to take them into custody, we have to arrest them, we have to take them back to our station. we must fingerprint them, find out if they have criminal records in the united states. that is a very humane process. host: from north carolina, republican line, mike, go ahead. caller: good morning. we do not watch fox anymore since they got rid of tucker carlsen, but this immigration thing goes down to the mexican government. the mexican president is as corrupt as the president before him. remember when biden went down there and he thanked mr. biden for not building one more inch of the wall. nobody is talking about how much burden the illegal immigration system is on the american

taxpayer. it is almost half $1 trillion. one other thing, congress needs to redo the section of the 14th amendment that says if a baby is born in the united states, it becomes an american citizen. that revolves around immigrants coming in. some of their court dates are four and five years and they are having babies over here and when it is time to deport them, the democrats bring up child separation. if the mother and father come into this country illegally and they have a baby here, that baby is illegal as well because the parents are illegal. host: thank you, mike. we got your point. guest: there is no doubt there is rampant corruption in a lot of these countries. we are dealing with people from 170 different countries. it is interesting we do not deal with people from, say, germany,

england, france. we do not deal with people from countries that do have stable governments. that do not have rampant corruption as exists in other countries unfortunately, that is not a lawful reason to enter our country illegally. it is not a lawful reason to claim asylum either. we have very specific rules that allow you to claim asylum. by law -- and i believe in the law. i believe that laws should be enforced. by our laws if something comes into our country, even if they are here illegally, if they have a child in the country, that child becomes a u.s. citizen. those are our laws. we need to operate within our laws and we can do that. if we had programs operations, we could shut down the border tomorrow and go after the criminal cartels and save american lives from the fentanyl poisonings. host: do you get the sense the

administration has said they are trying to work with other countries in order to get them involved in stopping the cartel issue and migration issues. do you get the sense these countries are doing their part? guest: not at all. there is no reason for them to do their part. if you look at the amount of money that goes into their economies -- let's talk about the mexican cartels alone. from illegal immigration -- not drug trade -- illegal immigration, they are generating a minimum of $13 billion. that money goes right back into the mexican economy. why would they want to shut that down? it makes no sense. you have to look at what are the benefits? crime is about risk reward. what are the benefits? that is a huge amount of money that goes into their economy. on top of that the drug trade that is facilitated because of illegal immigration. we have to ask ourselves, why would other countries want to stop this when there is so much benefit to them? i do not believe they want to stop it.

we also have to look at what is it we can control? we have many examples. we cannot control what happens outside our own borders. we cannot control what other governments do nor should be controlled other governments to. what we can control is what is happening in the united states and all we have to have right here in the u.s. is proper enforcement policy. if we had that, we can stop illegal immigration. host: several organizations including third way when they talk about fentanyl, they make the case fentanyl is being brought into the legal ports of entry. do you disagree? guest: absolutely. we have to go back to the pandemic era. the ports of entry were shut down to all but essential traffic. that means we were only dealing with about one third of the normal traffic through the ports of entry, yet seizures went down

greatly but the amount of fentanyl on the streets shot up exponentially. that clearly shows it was not going through the ports of entry. the problem is that if you do not seize that load coming into the u.s., you will never know where it's coming from. it's true, we seize more narcotics at the ports of entry, but that is common sense dictating that is going to happen. we can go through every single vehicle at a port of entry. between the ports of entry those 1000 people that get away every day, we do not know what they are bringing in. we have no idea what is in their backpacks. what i can tell you is that we have stopped many people with pounds and pounds of fat no in their backpack -- fentanyl in their backpacks. the problem is when we cannot apprehend those people we have no idea what they're bringing in. host: the republicans in the

house passed the secure border act. rest construction of the wall, boost thnology for the border, checking legal status. if that would get to the president's desk and signed, would it do any effective good? guest: it what. a station i used to work at, we were apprehending 100,000 people every year and this was in a small 50 mile stretch of border. 100,000 people is who we were apprehending. after the wall was built it dropped down to 10,000. you do not have people crossing in mass numbers. infrastructure absolutely works. it has been proven time and time again. there is other policies that are necessary. if we did e-verify, if we were

able to go after employers that hire people in the country illegally against our laws, that would have an effect. if there is no jobs for people in the country illegally, people are not going to come. people come to the united states because of the benefits. whether those are social benefits, work benefits, that is why they are coming here. they are coming here because we have a very good system whereas in their country, they do not. i realize there countries are not the greatest countries in the world but that is not a reason to enter the united states illegally. it is not a reason that allows them -- that would give them asylum if they actually showed up to their court dates and plead their case. host: let's hear from dave in long island, independent line. caller: good morning. i want to thank you very much for all your work in trying to help people like me out by preventing this flood, the tsunami, of cheap labor flooding

into the country. i appreciate it and i think the problem is that it is a losing battle. they are raising interest rates. one of the primary things to look at as the jobs numbers. if the jobs are tight, you have wage inflation. one of the things we have done historically since the 1980's is sent all the jobs overseas so they did not have to pay americans top dollar. and then the jobs you cannot send overseas, you flood the country with illegal, vulnerable, exploited people who will work for anything. forget medical benefits, you do not have to pay anybody anything like you would have to pay me, an american. this is 100% class warfare and thank you so much for your help. host: that is dave in new york. guest: one of the things that frustrates me most is when you

look at the number of people crossing our borders illegally that are going into modern-day slavery. when you look at the indentured servitude that is happening, if you are coming from china, you are paying between $30,000 to $50,000 to be smuggled into the united states. i don't know how any people out there watching this program have $30,000 to $50,000 to give to cartels. these people go into debt to come into the united states and that is when they go into indentured servitude. when you look at the exploitable people and when you look at how the cartels exploit those individuals, whether they go into the sweatshops, the sex industry, they are being forced into this work to pay these debts off. that is modern-day slavery and it should stop. it is insane to think -- it is monstrous to think we currently have that in the united states. the greatest country in the world. we should have no slavery in the united states, yet we do have

that because of indentured servitude these people are being forced into to pay off their smuggling debts. it is absolutely monstrous. host: roland in maryland, democrats line. caller: thank you for taking my call. you can tell that he is just playing politics. blame the democrats for everything. obama did not do nothing but for some reason, they tried to put it all on biden. tell me which policy biden enacted that made this increase. all of this started in trump. what about the solutions? there have got to be fundamental, on the ground

something going on in these countries and the republicans don't want to come up with a solution. know nothing other than build the wall. there was no wall during obama. tell me the solutions other than the democrats out and bringing in the republicans? guest: there are civil solutions and i will take criticism. but to say that i am playing politics is very incorrect. all i'm doing is giving you facts. i like to deal in facts an actual evidence. it is very true that under the trump administration there were issues that we face because there were releases taking place. but those releases ended. we dropped to 45 year lows. the solution is to enforce the laws on the book. if somebody crosses the border illegally, they do not have a right to be released into the united states.

those individuals should either be held in custody pending asylum or deportation, or the should have to wait, like what other countries around the world do. look at germany, look at france, look at italy, look at spain. if you want to claim asylum in their country, you must weigh in another country pending that adjudication. if we did the same in the united states, which is what we were doing, it would drop illegal immigration to 45 year lows. that is the solution. it is right there. it has been proven time and again. those of the solutions offered up. this administration have balked at those solutions and that is what caused illegal immigration to skyrocket. host: there was a recent inspector general's report put out about the staffing of customs imported protection and ice.

we determined both organization's current management of law enforcement staffing is unsustainable. workloads have grown significantly due to factors beyond dhs's control. ultimately, what does that mean for the people you represent? guest: that means we do not have the resources to patrol the border. what i will tell you is if we went back to normal lows, we do have the resources. i do not want to burden the taxpayer. i do not want more resources. i'm not asking congress to give us more infrastructure technology. i want policy which does not cost the american taxpayer a dime. if we had the proper policy -- it has been proven time and again we can do the job with the resources we have. but we have to go after the cartels. we have to drop illegal immigration to normal levels. if we drop it to normal levels, we have those resources and the

taxpayer does not have to foot the bill. host: very is in texas --mary is in texas. go ahead. caller: mr. judd, i want you to give a message to the border patrol, the ones who protect our border and do the best they can. i understand and i want the american people to understand this is not a political border patrol. this is citizens of america making a political statement. i wanted to ask them, the american people, oh, humanitarian. how many do you want into this country? how many are you going to take into your town? if you think we are only getting a few, what happens if we end up with another 32 million?

are you going to take care of them? are you going to take care of 100 million? what is the cost? i want you to tell border patrol to keep up their morale because i tell you what, some of the citizens are behind them. no, it is not political and shame the citizens making a political. guest: what i can assure you of is that they will continue to go out and do the best job they can. they put that uniform on day in and day out so they can protect the american people. it does frustrate me and it does upset me when we are talking about a serious issue and we are using a set of facts and people call us racists. that happens all the time. we were equated by one politician as running concentration camps, equating us to nazi germany, when all we are

in doing is enforcing the laws and running the facilities built under president obama. it becomes very frustrating when we are talking about this and the only thing that can come up is racist. i do not believe i said one thing here today that would be even remotely considered racist. we are talking about rule of law. why is it important? ho can we continue with rule of law to keep this country the grades country in the world? i believe that we are. i want to be the greatest country in the world but we cannot do that if you are properly enforcing the rule of law. host: i know you are in arizona but in texas, the governor has started his own operation, operation lone star. what you think about states doing this and how did they work side-by-side with those under federal enforcement to work on border issues? guest: i'm very grateful to governor abbott for the resources he has given on the border. when you look at the number of got aways we have every day, if

it was not for texas dps, those would go up exponentially. texas dps does a great job enforcing state laws and while enforcing state laws, if they come across people in the country illegally, they take them into custody and turn them over to immigration officers. they are doing a great job, a great service, in order to keep the a number of got aways as low as we can. operation lone star has been a huge success and if it were to go away tomorrow, those got aways would go up exponentially. host: from new york, democrats line, this is paul. caller: hi. the agency has a budget to follow and i'm wondering, the expense of the wall is so great. i'm wondering if the money would be better spent hiring more agents, you know, heatseeking

drones, etc. that is my question. guest: i have said this before. i will take any technology resources they will give us. you have to have the proper policy. if you have the proper policy, numbers go down. right now, you could give us as many drones as you want. they would only count the number of people getting away. what a wall does is reduces the amount of people that can cross at one given time. without a wall you can easily cross several hundred people within a matter of seconds. with the wall you can only cross two or three people in the same time. that is why walls are so effective. it allows us to dictate where illegal border crossings take place. if we can dictate where they

take place, we can be much more effective. we can also be more effective in the amount of drugs flowing into the united states. would be able to detect a great deal more if we had the proper infrastructure. i will tell you the wall has been paid for. that money has already been allocated and it is just sitting there. there are other things we can do with money, such as different technologies, but i will tell you it all starts with policy. if we have the proper policy, we can do what is necessary with what we have right now. host: our employers doing enough to stem this problem? guest: i could opine on that. i do not deal with employer sanctions. i would rather not get into that. host: but if part of the draw is labor, they have a role to play. guest: they do. i just do not know to what extent that would be -- that

would be something for homeland investigation. yes, they obviously play a part. i just do not know how large that part is. host: chris in california, border state. go ahead. caller: hi. good morning. i wanted to circle back on asylum laws in italy. that is actually the reverse of what you had said. when you seek asylum in italy, you are given temporary residency and cannot leave. it would be more similar if you came to mexico and tried to go on vacation to mexico, and the united states would be, no, you have to stay in the united states. to circle back to the statements, when you preface something that is opposite of the truth, i go, well, what is

this guy actually saying? what is true and what is false? i have not checked the asylum laws in spain or the other countries. and then you say you treat them humanely which is not true. you have children developing disgusting rashes at the border. my question is, where are these facts coming from? have a great morning. guest: when dhs announced their new rule, we submitted our public comments. you can go online and you can find that. any person has the right to make comments anytime the government changes a rule or implements a rule. i have a set of attorneys, seven attorneys, that work for the national board counsel. what are developing countries doing?

what are already developed countries doing? what we found is that universally that is what is happening, including, i believe, italy. i will check that. i had my attorneys do the research. we did submit our public comments and that was based upon the attorney research we did. when you talk about children developing rashes in our detention facilities. i would ask you to provide evidence. you are listening to people -- those are talking points but give us the evidence. are our facilities 100% free of disease? no. but we treat those people humanely as we cantered but if we want to use political rhetoric, that is fine as well. host: when we started you did not have the numbers or the information.