announcer: coming up, we talk about the house vote on the debt ceiling with a member of the house budget, ways and means committee. we continue the discussion with rah norman, member of the house finaia services and budget committee. and dr desiderio, senior rert with punchbowl news. he examines the next steps in theene. an roben farzad, host of naon public radio's "full disclosure," looking at the impact on market volatility. "washington journal" starts now. >> yays, 314. the bill is passed.

host: good morning. the house has passed the debt limit brokered by president biden and kevin mccarthy. 165 democrats joined 149 republicans to overcome opposition from the left and the right. we are going to get your thoughts on passage in the house. this is how you can dial in. republicans (202)-748-8001, democrats (202)-748-8000, an independents (202)-748-8002. you can also join us in text. include your first name, city, and state at (202)-748-8003. on facebook.com/cspan and also send a tweet, include the handle @cspanwj. front page of the washington times. mccarthy sways conservatives to

seal the debt deal. here is the speaker after the vote in the house last night talking about what is in the agreement. [video clip] spkr. mccarthy: there will people on welfare today that will no longer be on welfare. they will find a job because of the work requirement. and not just a job, but self-worth. their attitudes are going to change. they are going to be able to buy a house and send their kids to college because of the vote we took tonight. because of the bill we passed tonight, the billions of dollars in covid money they said they would never bring back, you know what? to the taxpayer, to you hard-working americans, we stood

for you. we brought that money back. for those afraid they are going to be audited because the president wants 37,000 new agents, right now, he has zero. we took every single dollar they were going to hire somebody this year away. i promise. i will be back next year and next year and next year because i believe government should be here to help you, not go after you. we did not just take the money from this year but another $20 billion. i think we should get more border agents with that $20 billion. we capped the ability of spending in government the next six years. we are holding people accountable to do the work you are supposed to do as a member, otherwise, cuts across-the-board.

we are unshackling what holds america back from competition with other countries. for the first time in 40 years we changed environmental review process so you do not have to wait seven years to build the road. you can do it in one or two. it is not just the bridges, the roads, it is the energy projects that will make us energy independent. we stopped $400 million going from the cdc global health fund not to americans, but taking americans' money to send it to china. i believe in looking after america first. more than two thirds of our conference voted for it. the democrats signed a discharge petition that said

they would never raise the debt ceiling and we got them to vote for it too. host: the speaker approved the debt limit deal brokered by himself in the president, noting two thirds of his conference voted for this. the washington times said, the demoatic support, which was more than the republican support, was pivotal since mr. mccarthy could only afford four defections from republicans given the narrow hold on the chamber. the new york times this morning, there front page story, built the dodge default in bipartisan vote. they said democratic support was a blow to the republican speaker, whose hard-fought victory was dampened by the fact more democrats voted for the bill then members of his own party. inside the wall street journal this morning, here is a quote by andy biggs, conservative from

arizona. those that were opposed to the deal, quote, " we were told they were never put a bill on the floor that would have more democrats pass. we were told that. that is what just happened." we are getting your thoughts this morning on the house passing this debt deal. it now moves to the senate. what happens there and how quickly they take it up we will know shortly. the senate is going to convene today. the house has left washington, the lawmakers have left on the house side, and all eyes are on the upper chamber. here's the senate majority leader, chuck schumer, who says he wants to move the bill quickly. this is him talking before the vote in the house yesterday. [video clip] sen. schumer: today we are here

to talk about first and foremost the most important order of business in the capitol and that is avoiding default. today the house will vote on a bipartisan agreement that will protect the american economy and eliminate the risk of a catastrophic default. once this bill reaches the senate, which i hope will be later this evening, the senate will move quickly to pass the bill, send it to the president's desk, and put the awful and devastating risk of default behind us. no one on either side would call this agreement perfect. no one got everything they wanted. that is why it is a bipartisan agreement. however, this agreement accomplishes two major goals. it spares the american people from catastrophic default and preserves many of the most important investment we have passed over the last few years. from the very beginning democrats have warned that default is a disaster and

absolutely must be taken off the table. moving forward on this agreement is the sensible, responsible thing to do, and most vital for our country. we are getting close to putting this threat of default behind us but there is more work, perhaps the most important work, to do -- passing it into law. i hope the house will do its job later today and urge my colleagues to be prepared to do the same when the time comes and it is coming soon. host: the senate majority leader, democrat of new york, talking before the house approved the debt limit deal. from the washington post, senate leaders ceiling the time crunch. marion levine reporting not everyone is on board in the senate. liberal and conservative senators started raising concerns over aspects of the legislation. senator bernie sanders says he

planned to oppose the debt limit deal, saying he could not, in good conscience, support it. at least two republican senators said they would ask for amendment votes that may slow down final passage. those were senator rand paul of kentucky, willing to allow the deal to move through at a faster rate in exchange for a vote on his amendment, which would cut total federal spending by 5% a year. and senator mike lee, republican of utah, said he has no desire to hold the legislation up for the sake of holding it up. buddy plans to also propose his own amendments. those would need 60 votes to get through the chamber. the washington post not, any changes to a house passed bill means the house would have to take of the legislation again, which would certainly mean blowing past the monday deadline.

possible amendments are widely expected to be required to pass the 60 vote thresho, guaranteeing they would largely be symbolic. let's go to calls. let's go to alabama. shiraz, you are first. caller: [indiscernible] host: is your question about social security? caller: are they cutting the social security money when they reduce the debt ceiling? host: social security payments will go out as long as the senate can move before the june 5 deadline to avoid default. gordon implant city, florida, republican. caller: the most important bill that was up there was not the debt ceiling talks and that would be hr 5899.

ralph norman is going to be up in a little bit and i want you to ask him about the student loan bankruptcy bill. student debt is over $2 trillion and the students have paid more than they borrowed. you are not going to get blood from them. my member of congress is loralee. she is conservative but has not done anything to reduce or eliminate using my tax dollars to guarantee student loans. i'm going to call her out as a liberal and do everything i can to unseat her. students can file bankruptcy. ralph norman's bill from the 116th congress is nothing short of a miracle from god almighty. , national director -- i lost

the case 4-3 so i am very conservative fiscally and morally. i'm going to call out laura lee and make sure my tax dollars no longer guarantee student loan dollars. host: we heard you. student loan policy is included in this agreement. five takeaways on the economic impact of this debt ceing agreement from the washington post. student loan repayments have been on hold since march 2020, costing the government roughly $5 billion a month in lost revenue. if passed, the debt agreement would require 43 million americans to resume payments in september, slightly earlier than expected. as a result, households could see a $40 billion reduction in disposable income. that could quickly blunt america's spending power at a time when many families are

struggling to keep up with high inflation on necessities such as food and gas. jamie in plymouth, massachusetts. what do you think about this deal? caller: to put it briefly, i think kevin mccarty got fleeced by joe biden. when you are the house majority -- which a large propulsion voted against your own deal -- he should sleep with one eye open. even one member can say they could get rid of him as speaker and he should be nervous. the fact that you go in grandstanding and say you want to eliminate half or three quarters of the $20 billion shift in irs funding from the biden administration and you only eliminate $1.4 billion, it is parity embarrassing. at the end of the day when you go in with high expectations and

you go one-on-one with joe biden, it undercuts that joe biden does not know what he is doing and makes republicans look like they are falling flat in terms of not being capable of handling budgetary issues and meeting expectations. all they have to say is hot air and related to policies that do not help the people and just helps the top 1%, which are most of their supporters, in the discussion about what the budget is. host: political observer saying president biden can also claim he has worked across the aisle. that this shores up his claim of being bipartisan. that he would work as president with the other side of the aisle. are you still there? caller: yes, i am. host: go ahead.

caller: i think at the end of the day with what president biden has been doing every day and trying to keep discussion with his own in the house, he is doing a good job of showing he is in the driver's seat. we are facing both people that are not happy but he got 165 democrats to vote for this shows we are more unified than the people in charge of the actual institution. host: those numbers mean 71 republicans opposed this deal and 46 democrats. here is what is in it. it raises e debt ceiling, increasing limitfor two years. itaps non-defense spending, that the education department, her domestic spending programs. it protects veteran's medil care, expands work requirements for certain adults reiving food stamps, and it claws back

unspent covid relief funds, cuts the internal revenue service funding, restarts student loan repaymen, and speeds up permitting processes for new energy products. the president yesterday issuing a statement. not going before the cameras but said this agreement is a bipartisan compromise. neither side got everything you wanted. i have been clear the only path forward is a bipartisan compromise that can earn the support of both parties. this agreement meets the test. 241-187 afternoon vote allowing wednesday night's action was unusual. the minority party almost never supports such a measure. before the final vote there was one on the rules. that is considered procedure. it is usually the majority party that is tasked with getting that

rule over the hurdle to move on to a final vote. because republicans did not have 218 of their own members to approve the rule, democrats worked to provide enough of their own to keep the bill moving along. a small group of chosen house democrats discussed via text messages throughout the day whether it was worth voting for the rules, including that they would do so if leadership gave them the signal, according to two people familiar with the effort. when mike rogers, republican of alabama who was presiding over the vote, asked whether all lawmakers had voted, hakeem jeffries, flashed a green card to dozens of democrats waiting in the well of the chamber who immediately voted yes and brought the rule over the hurdle. democrats stressed their support for the initial parliamentary

vote would not come without a price. in exchange, the democratic leader will win a private pledge for concessions from mccarthy on legislation considered this summer or fall. mccarthy's office did not respond to request for comment but asked wednesday whether he would cut a deal to have democrats vote for the rule, mccarthy responded, no, no. we are getting your reaction to the house passing this debt limit deal now moving to the senate. republicans, dial in at (202)-748-8001. democrats, (202)-748-8000 and independents, (202)-748-8002. you can also text us at (202)-748-8003. let's listen to the minority leader, hakeem jeffries, on the floor yesterday about this agreement.

[video clip] >> it appears you may have lost control of the floor of the house of representatives. earlier today 29 house republicans voted to default on our nation's debt and against an agreement you negotiated. it is an extraordinary act that indicates the nature of the extremism that is out of control on the others of the aisle. extreme maga republicans attempted to take control of the house floor. democrats took it back for the american people. and we will continue to do what is necessary under the leadership of president joe biden. to build an economy that works for every day americans and push back against the extremism on the others of the aisle. under the trump administration,

democrats helped the former president avoid default and raised the debt ceiling three times without partisanship because the democrats put people over politics. even though we strongly disagreed with your reckless policies. as chairman neal outlined, 2017, you passed the gop's tax scams where 83% of the benefit went to the wealthiest 1% in america. and caused our nation to go $2 trillion in debt to subsidize the lifestyles of the wealthy, well off and well-connected,. did nothing to lift up the economy for every day americans and that has been the case with

your so-called tax cuts under ronald reagan and george w. bush . failed policy, trickle down economics. it has come to mean only one thing for everyday americans -- you may get a trickle but you are guaranteed to stay down. the policies have failed. host: democratic leader in the house, had jeffries of new york. the house passed this debt limit agreement brokered by the president and speaker mccarthy. it now goes to the senate. the senate majority leader, senator chuck schumer of new york, saying they will bring it up as quickly as possible. on the house floor last night the washington post says representative nancy pelosi walked up to hakeem jeffries, her successor, and briefly spoke

to him on her way out of the chamber before proudly patting him on the chest. both emerged from their quick interaction with a smile. the washington post with that color of what was happening on the floor as the house passed this measure with more democrats than republicans. tim in michigan, republican. what do you think of the republican majority needing democrats to get this over the finish line? caller: well, regardless of parties, this is a proud american. i believe the only way we are going to get out of this mess is to actually default and we are going to have to start all over. nobody is getting anything done. we are just bickering back and forth. we hear this every morning.

it is the same stuff over and over and over again. if we default, all we are going to do -- we are still paying our bills. the american people pay the bills for our federal government. period. if we stop paying taxes, we will default. it is common sense. so, the dumb guys sitting right behind you, they are just wasting time, they are wasting money, and their job is not even a job. it floors me to think we are going on and on and on and on about this stuff and it does not really matter, except to the american people, which pay the bills. thank you. host: let's go to tim in iowa, independent. what do you say about the debt

agreement passing the house? caller: good morning, greta. host: good morning, tim. caller: can you hear me? host: i can hear you. go ahead. caller: greta? host: we are listening. caller: ok. i think the other bill they had first was better. the one the republicans passed. but anyway, how are you going to pay the student loans back if they keep pausing the payments? host: under this deal they will not. they will not be paused anymore. caller: why were they paused in the first place? host: because of the pandemic. caller: shoot. oh, heck. host: mary in st. paul,

minnesota, demratic caller. caller: good morning it is really funny tt we are talking about the debt ceiling. there are so many things wrong with it and one of the things this things they were ying to put into the bill. mtg was trying to limit free speech. we are pausing the student loans. we areot taking them where they should be. we should be getting rid of student loan debt. biden had to do what he had to do but it is stupid. we still have covid. covid is not over. anyone who thinks covid is over should stop and think it over. you all have a good day. host: bill in columbia, maryland, independent.

your turn. caller: good morning, greta. so nice to talk to you. host: good morning. caller: i'm an independent. i'm a conservative. i usually vote republican but identified as independent because i see both parties as fiscally irresponsible, as evidenced by the $32 trillion debt. that is why i identify as independent. this, as i have said many times, is political theater. what they are doing is showing their true colors. they are a uni-party when it comes to spinning our children's and grandchildren's money to advance their political careers. it is such a shame for our children and grandchildren that they cannot get serious and

address the fundamental issues, which, of course, are the entitlement programs. this discussion about the debt ceiling is like, imagine you have a four or five generation households. all of these kids, multiple generations, in the adult, the great-grandparents, parents, grandparents, some of them are talking about cutting expenses when in reality every year they keep raising it. and they are lying to the kids and some of the kids are saying, wait a second. you're going to leave us all of this debt. other kids are like, spend it. let's not worry about tomorrow. it is such a shame to see that, in washington, they cannot face reality when it comes to finances. thanks for taking my call. appreciate every thing you do. host: you may be interested in

this piece in the wall street journal. a debt deal that does not deal with the debt. republican's beef has never been with debt, otherwise they would not routinely vote for tax cuts, as they did in 2017. the beef is with the size and nature of federal spending. yet even on spending, their ambitions have shrunk. when the government shut down for 21 days in 1995 to 1996 the key reason was changes to medicare. intended to save money but he did not get those changes. shutdowns result when congress does not authorize money for government programs. the debt ceiling limits how much the treasury can borrow to pay for programs that are already authorized, including interest on existing debt. in 2011, republicans in control of the house raised the prospect

of not raising the debt ceiling, forcing the treasury to default to subtract spending cuts from president obama. both sides were willing to consider changes to social security and medicare would provide pensions and health care to the elderly and disabled. both are mandatory programs, i. e., they do not need to be reauthorized. in the end they were left largely untouched and covered by the national park service, coast guard, national institutes of health, nasa. nonetheless, the window had moved. threatening default was now an acceptable negotiating tactic. by 2023 the field had narrowed. biden accused republicans of wanting to sunset medicare and social security. when they protested, he declared a consensus on leaving the two

alone. going to bill's point that the drivers are medicare and social security, that mandatory spending, not the discretionary spending that is being cut. non-defense spending is being cut. caller: am i still on? host: -- host: go ahead. caller: it seems to me if he said let's raise the cap social security for anyone making over $400,000 a year and saying, we are giving you a -- we are raising taxes on the wealthy. they could also say to joe biden, you promised you wouldn't raise taxes on anyone over $400,000. we are giving you a talking point.

that would have been a serious first step in addressing the underfunding of social security and i know they don't have the political will of their, that is the third rail of politics. neither party is willing to touch the third rail of politics and the end result is our children are going to be screwed. we are talking 10 years and they're going to have to cut social security 25% and you will see things like you have never seen before because politicians will scramble to stay in power. host: bill in maryland. the hill newspaper reporting as others are this morning, the justice department reportedly has an audio recording of former president trump discussing a classified pentagon document regarding a potential u.s. attack on iran.

that is in many of the papers this morning dealing with that investigation into president trump taking classified documents after he left the white house. in a politics, the washington times notes gop presidential fields' expansion ignites flashbacks to 2016. many are expected to toss their hat into the ring over the cup -- coming days, reviving fears in some gop circles that the situation could benefit former president donald trump. lisa in virginia, republican. we are talking about the debt limit agreement that was approved by the house yesterday evening. now the senate need to take it up in order to the void -- to avoid a default by june 5. your reaction. caller: yes ma'am. host: we are listening to you

and you are listening to us through your phone, not the television. caller: yes ma'am. i feel like if we want to do something about the debt, we should tack the income on the senators, the governors and debt freeze -- said that the democrats, when they are in charge, the economy is better. i can tell you from personal experience that every time we have democrat leaders, my pocketbook is a lot less and it -- in its. host: reminder to all the colors this morning, you have to meet that television. -- you have to mute that television. all right, david? caller: i am with you. host: go ahead. caller: you ever noticed that

all these budget bills and even this bill last night, they say all the savings come in the year of nine and 10 in the 10 year program but we never get there because every year or two, they redo it and they move the savings up further. there is not one politician in washington dc back and say i will be here in 10 years. the president -- senator is on a six-year term in the house of representatives are on two years. i would like to see them put out a bill and passed legislation where the savings occur in years one or two. host: did you agree with the vote to approve this? caller: being conservative, i would like them to vote against that and i want to see what happens, if the debt ceiling is not extended. i think it is a little bit

hokey. host: you don't believe the nation would befall -- default? caller: i know it is not a good comparison but when you start -- compare your household budget, when things get tight, unless you really have -- you say uncle charlie just died a month ago and i know i am getting a bunch of money from him, no. you call your creditors and say, i am behind this month. let's see what we can do before we foreclose on whatever my debt is. host: did you see the predictions by analytics and others who said this could be catastrophic for the economy? do you think it was worth the risk? caller: i saw so many sister sticks over the last couple weeks -- many statistics over the last couple weeks.

nobody is going to get their social security checks, military what i get paid, i don't believe that. yesterday was the military payday. today is the military retiree payday. i don't think -- i haven't heard anyone complain about not getting their checks. host: david in florida, an independent. here is greg, in cleveland, ohio texting to say this clearly demonstrates the democrats are willing to go across the aisle to work with republicans. maryland -- maryland --marlyin, in georgia. what are your thoughts on this debt agreement? caller: i was truly upset with the speaker of the house's statement saying that cutting welfare and poop -- and making

people work for benefits would allow them to buy homes and their self-esteem go up. at that that was very insensitive -- i thought that was very insensitive and he must -- must not have thought that through because, most people who receive welfare are single moms with no college experience. the only jobs they qualify for would-be restaurants and hotel jobs. these jobs pay minimum wages and once the single moms workpiece jobs, their rent goes up and food stamps it cut off and childcare, which is so expensive, that goes up. this is a calculated bill against the poor because it is going to push them into property. -- poverty. host: you may be interested in the washington times reporting on the work requirements.

able-bodied children recipients of -- childless recipients of each program, 54 and younger, what have to work at least 20 hours per week to keep their benefits so this is not single moms. they also will be subject to new restrictions for how long they could collect the benefits. the deal excludes veterans and the homeless from work permits as well as expanding their food stamp benefits. while the new restrictions would save taxpayer money, the expanded investments for veterans -- the compression -- $2.1 billion over the next decade. republicans want to spend less and in and in the end under this agreement, with president biden, according to the congressional budget office, they are spending more because the benefits were

expanded for those groups, the veterans and the homeless. robert in missouri. independent. good morning to you. caller: i wanted to let all those republicans out there who believe some of the garbage they are getting from the republican side that the debt has been approved 60 times by republicans and only 20 times -- 29 times by the democrats. the rhetoric is not quite what it is supposed to be. have a good day. host: robert there with his thoughts in missouri. let's go to republican caller chuck in mary esther --florida. good morning to you. what do you think about your party approving the debt limit

agreement and the job on --the job done by speaker mccarthy? caller: i am ok with it. i am a little disappointed. what i would like to do is go over the chronology of what happened. since january, joe biden said he is not negotiated. rain jean-pierre -- karine jean-pierre says every day that republicans have to do their job and vote for what we like. this whole crisis was committed by the democrats, not the republicans. the fake news reported differently the whole time -- reported it differently and -- the whole time and mccarthy submitted his bill in april. they had a month to finish this out. joe is being stubborn in the white house. he brought us to this break of whatever.

we have never defaulted before. although catastrophic vision that -- all the catastrophic this and that, is called fear mongering and democrats do this all the time and i can't believe, people in america well for this whole charade -- fell for this whole charade. host: you finish your thoughts and i will ask you a question. caller: matt gaetz my personal rep here. i believe he voted against it. i am pretty sure he did. i am kind of proud of him. i might have done the same thing. i am not sure. go ahead. host: i am checking for you on the matt gaetz question. he voted against it. caller: good for him. host: do you think the speaker played his cards right here? caller: in the end, yes, i

guess. lec got some of the stuff back. we got a little bit of what we wanted. it didn't come down to the speaker but the boat --vote. host: do you think that republicans that opposed this, there were over 70, many of them freedom caucus members including matt gaetz, do you think now, there are rumblings that they may try to vacate the chair and try to oust speaker kevin mccarthy from his position? caller: no. in that respect, i do think mccarthy -- i am proud for him just for even standing his ground as long as he did, especially with all the threats from jean-pierre and all the

rest of them and every democrat politician. the fear mongering was discussing. i am glad on that point because he held his line. i don't think he will give voted out of office. i think there might be a shakeup in the republican party. in the democratic party as well -- and the democrat party as well and i cannot wait until 2024. host: we will be talking with a republican from south carolina, a member of the freedom caucus. we will talk about the future with him. he will be joining us at 8:20 a.m. eastern time. the senate taking up action beginning with today's session. that collar and others may be interested in the deal on how the -- it was brokered.

when turning, they say, came when the top -- and expand the governor -- governments barring authority and to next year. about the president to the table for budget negotiations. there is a quote from a former speaker, newt gingrich. fred in california, what do you say this morning? >> -- caller: they cut or lowered the debt ceiling a lot. all the money they left in afghanistan and the brave soldiers that joe biden left in

afghanistan. it could have lowered the budget by that much. that is all of our testing money. -- taxpaying money. host: listen to the majority leader, steve felice in indiana -- from indiana on the floor this morning telling us about the bill in the spending cuts were able to get in on the final deal. [video clip] >> over $2 trillion in actual spending cuts, that is in the bill. that is a very historic first step and it does not mean is where we start but it is where we start. don't get the next round of trillions in spending cuts if you don't lock in the first $2.1 trillion in the. --this bill. we reclaim for the south --

taxpayers of america what it has been identified in billions of dollars in slush fund floating around in washington under the name of covid. president biden himself said covid is over. we -- we can get our country and our economy going but there's $28 billion out there. if we don't pass this bill, they will spend that money in the name of covid. even though covid is over, $28 billion that should go back in savings to the taxpayer. guess what is in the bill, those $28 billion are reclaimed so the taxpayers get that money back. that is in this bill. let us -- let's talk about the irs. in my years of public service in the state level or congress, i never got a single call from the constituents going " the thing we want you to do is to add

people to the irs." best buy says he wants to double the size of the irs to go from 80,000 people to add an additional 87,000 people and even according to the congressional budget office, they confirm that it would break president biden's promise. if you make less than $400,000 a year, you won't pay taxes -- new taxes. if you are making less than a hundred thousand dollars, those new irs agents will be going after you. the single mom that is working two jobs at a restaurant. we stepped in and say no, we have to end the madness. host: steve police on the floor -- steve scully's on the floor

-- we are getting your reaction to what the house did yesterday. it took more democrats than republicans to get it over the finish line and it also took, according to the washington post, a fossil fuel -- a fossil fuel pipeline. " immediately after house speaker mccarthy reached an elusive agreement with president biden on saturday, the speaker emerge from his office and call it a little-known congresswoman about a one of secure energy process -- profit -- project. it's inclusion shocked many in washington including several lawmakers, and lobbyists. it is a phone call that has not been report -- recorded previously, tapped a week of

negotiations over the 303 mount pipeline which would carry natural gas from west virginia and virginia over the opposition of local restaurants and -- residents and climate activists. jennifer -- senator joe manchin has been one of the most vocal supporters of the pipeline. the house republicans and their eight played out key role in securing language in the deal to expedite the project completio., " this fossil fuel pipeline securing -- we will see when the senate takes up this debt limit deal as early as today and we will see if they can get into the floor. two in -- tune in to c-span2 for our gavel-to-gavel coverage of

the senate. your thoughts this morning? caller: i to say that -- i want to say that for my brothers and sisters, they think they are righteous. the bible says -- there is no righteous. it was a beautiful move that the president made when he did not negotiate it first. why? because leaving the negotiation all the way at the end forced them to give him a lot of what he would not get if we started -- negotiating early. people think that the president is down. he is very smart. he knows exactly what he is doing. if he started early, but we get, we will never get it now. host: james, miss can expert --

next can expert --mechanicsberg . caller: i am glad mccarthy we did this debt ceiling -- mccarthy redid this debt ceiling -- but it is to save his job. this country and the people to have a problem with that, the great depression caused a lot of people to stop short of a great recession. people took alone they could not pay back. one of these days, we will have another debt crisis and it will be a lot worse. that is all i want to say. i glad they reached an agreement and i hope we can resolve these problems sooner. host: you think that the

speaker's leadership position essay. -- position is safe. what about the rumblings -- during those 15 rounds and votes for him to become their leader? they say what he did with his that -- debt deal violates this agreement they had been? --then? caller: you will in congress have a short attention paint -- spam so things that are going on between january and february and what happened last night, this will blow over. the president will keep his job. they will pass the debt ceiling bill. i am not worried about mccarthy willing -- losing his job. that has passed. host: the speaker can only afford four -- reflection --

deflection from republicans. just 29 republicans had voted against the measure to begin the debate on the bill. the final procedural step that often serves at a litmus -- as a litmus test for the vote. 71 per -- republicans fought speak mccarthy and voted against the act. jack in florida, republican. >> -- caller: this is jack and i just want to say i am a proud republican and your whole show has been about democrats. you are a -- host: in aberdeen, maryland. democratic caller. melanie: i would like to --

caller: i will let you put this in historical context. in 1913, theoderate income tax only affected the top 5% of this population. i remember in 1963 when jfk proposed his big tax cuts and the republican response was they wererate. we need -- you need to propose new taxes to replace the reven that we are losing or you need to cut nondefense spending. sound familiar? there were 306 -- three or $6 billion in debt when this happened. when reagan came into office, they when up to 99 $7 billion. after he left office, it was 2.8 -- he tripled but that -- the debt.

there are two sides to the issue. you have to tax. you have to have revenue. th lie that tax cuts pay f themselves has repeatedly been shown to be proved to be wrong. it is time we start taxing th top 5% of -- again at th rates they once had to pay. maybe not 90% but we need to go back to the 1960 rates on incomes over for $15,000 -- $415,000. host: what do you think the job president biden has done under that agreement? caller: he has done an amazing job and he has proven he is not see now. on the other hand, i am afraid.

we still haven't gotten through the senate and there are those republicans out there that still want to drown this in the bathtub. host: the washington post is noting this morning -- are you talking about the couple conservative senators who want to offer amendments? caller: i am just talking about the republicans in general who are opposed to there being any government at all. they have this idea that we can live in this free, unfettered capitalist society and everything will be good and the problem is one thing with capitalism, it concentrates income into fewer and fewer hands. when that happens, we lose democracy. if you look at their talking points now, they are saying we are not a democracy. we are a republic. host: there are not just

conservative republicans opposed to this debt limit deal in the senate. this from the washington post reported. senate leaders feeling about time front on the measure. bernie sanders is saying he is going to oppose it because he cannot in good conscious supported. so that rand paul and mike lee saying they will not hold it up because of the june 5 deadline. under the agreement between the two parties in the senate, they will be allowed to offer amendments. those amendments likely needing 60 votes to get approved. if they would be successful to overcoming that 60 vote threshold, and they were changes legislation, they would have to go back to the house for another vote and the washington post says that means congress likely misses that june 5 deadline. watch our gavel-to-gavel coverage on the senate today on c-span2. lewis in virginia.

independent. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i have two or three points to make. maybe washington journal should be renamed as the washington post journal. folks like you should at least declare yourself as either democrats, republicans, or independents, just like us. that helps us decide on where you mean on these topics. with regards to very that -- to the debt approval, i am an independent but leaning conservative. i believe in fiscal conservatism. i am not happy with this deal. it is a good start. washington post journal can at

least show us how president bill clinton and the center republicans in congress at that time were able to balance the budget and they were able to do good things. host: the moderators of this program read from many different newspapers. i referenced the washington post a few times a day because they have the actual color of what was happening on the house floor when this vote was taking place. and our goal here is to share information with you about how congress works, about what these lawmakers are doing. i thought maybe all of you may be interested in what was happening on the house floor. the back-and-forth you could necessarily see because the

cameras in the house are operated by speaker's office. other outlets did not have our cameras in the chamber to show you what was happening. catherine in new york. democratic caller. caller: to try to give you an industries -- illustration -- the contrast was light, the divide in this country, i saw it 40 years ago. in college, the students were talking about there will be no social security for the middle-class and the poor. this point. there were talking about it back then. to show you how cheap it can be, the only reason we had that at that college was to bring the

federal government money to build a science building. that was the only purpose of my presence. they were not going to emphasize my artistry. the only reason they had me there, one african-american man, one asian girl, one need for american indian woman, the only reason we were there was so that the federal government would sanction the taxpayers money in front. that is the purpose i was brought there. once i recognize that, i did my own revolution, i gathered up a few girls whose parents were attorneys -- host: we are talking about the

debt limit agreement, the speaker of the house negotiating with president biden to come up with a compromise. it was approved in the house chamber yesterday and now moves to the senate. from capitol hill this morning is congressman earl blumenauer, democrat of oregon, the progressive congress, how did you vote and wife? -- why? guest: i voted in favor, i would not a democrat who filled out republicans. they lost control of the house floor on their number one priority. and there were dozens of democrats who allowed it to go to the floor. i'm not about to risk the fate of the united states government. and candidly, joe played us.

he ended up with a better deal than people anticipated. their efforts to try and restrict access to nutrition, there were more people who have access to food because of the agreement negotiated. i think it was a reasonable compromise. it is not a bill i would've drafted but we came out of it much better and it demonstrated that fissures and fractures in the republican leadership. host: what did you make of your leader, hiking jeffries in the house? flashing a green card to those in the back of the chamber, from his party, keeping them that they -- he needed their votes to approve the rule you were talking about. guest: it was clear it was going to go down without democratic support. we waited until we saw who was going to walk the plank or not and then i came -- he gave the

sign and dozens of democrats came down and rescue the republicans by allowing the role to pass and then put it on the floor. i can't think of any time during nancy pelosi's tenure that she lost control of the house on a priority measure or any other. that is not how she operated. but it is a signal of the weakness that speaker mccarthy has put himself in, being dependent on democrats. to be able to vote on their priority legislation. it was crafted in such a way that dramatically improved it in terms of how the democrats proceeded. it ended up being about what we could have expected if it went through the regular appropriations process. host: now that democrats were needed to approve the rule, according to the reporting, if that happens there was an

agreement between hakeem jeffries and speaker mccarthy that the summer or fall, he would give concessions to democrats on legislation. host: i don't think it was accidental -- guest: i don't think he was accidental. i can jeffries is savvy. he is to responsible -- too responsible. there was a price to be paid to bail out republicans when they needed it and saving mccarthy from harassment. you cannot speak -- think of a single time speaker pelosi lost control. i'm confident there was some understanding or quid pro quo as a result of being bailout by the democrats.

and i think it will stick because it will not be the last time. with the majority and the fact there fighting among themselves over priority legislation, this is the decision to move things along on behalf of the market public. host: you said the president won in the negotiations. the hill notes that the turning point comes in april with the own bill. a major victory for speake mccarthy. until this point, he had saying no, we need a clean debt limit deal. he was not going to talk until that happened. guest: i thought joe biden played it perfectly. -- he did not rent -- have

support that. they did not have support to move down a scaled down priority without the votes. of it was not a winner -- winning hand, stronger than expected going in. they could not even vote on priority legislation by the democratic leader and democratic caucus. host: explain your yes vote given there were no cuts to defense spending and the discretionary savings came from education, the national park service, those domestic programs. guest: that republicans are in

control of the appropriations process. a number of them were willing to shoot the hostage. i was not. it would have been catastrophic for the american economy and american families if we proceeded forward with a default. many republicans were willing to do that. i was not. i had been through this before. i do not think it is right to gamble with the full faith and credit of the american government. the last time we did it there were huge costs. unbalanced, this is much better than what was negotiated with president obama and joe biden in 2011. and it was an easy call to be able to vote for an item that we had an opportunity to help craft, that are than what we had in 2011. and we are not risking the default of the american government. host: let's talk about future legislation. to serve on ways and means and the budget committee.

what about tax reform? over 70 republicans introduced the bill to make permanent the 2017 gop tax cuts. large portions of that bill scheduled to expire in 2025. guest: it shows they are not serious about reducing the deficit. if they were, they would not be proceeding with something that is going to increase it. they would not have tried to kneecap the irs. we were able to negotiate how much of that money is going to be available the next few years to collect taxes from rich people and -- we are having them pay taxes. it is clear the dust what the agenda is. it is always clear. but he will raise the deficit. it will be tough for them. people will hold the line in the

house and senate. they can probably do this in the house, with the ways and means committee. but it is different than the veto plan. it is not going to happen. host: thank you for your time. guest: host: -- guest: thanks for helping people understand. host: we will get back to your calls, the house approving the debt limit agreement. bill now moves to the senate. barbara in texas, republican. guest: hi. host: good morning. go ahead and share your thoughts/ guest: host: -- guest: i think the only reason that democrats held together with hakeem jeffries's because they passed a law called the -- petition and i think mccarthy let us down. host: do you think he should

stay on as a speaker? guest: no. they should get rid of him. host: barbara. we will move on to stephen in west palm beach, florida. independent. guest: good morning. i want to say a couple of things. how -- first, i don't agree with earl blumenauer on anything but he made it clear what is going on there. if the republicans were serious, they would not use the debt ceiling. they would pass their own budgets when they are in charge. and they would lower spending. but they don't. because they can't. because the economies of their districts and states depend upon federal spending. that is the reason why. the most notorious -- there is even a name for these people,

the vote no, hope yes coalition. tom cole who you have had on your program many times have mentioned these people. the most notorious faction of these are the republicans from the piedmont of virginia. what would happen to the piedmont of virginia if the budget of washington, d.c. was 200 miles away dropped by 10%? what do you think would happen jack go it would be a disaster. -- what would happen? it would be a disaster for their districts. unemployment would go up and these people would look like dirt. that is why they don't do that. the scales fell from my eyes clearly when the affordable care act was not repealed despite seven years of us giving republicans the power to do it. why? these republicans, how are they

going to fund their county hospitals in rural districts? impossible. the state republicans have to vote for tax increases. or people would have to leave those districts, which they should have done years ago because the towns are dying. and the republican power in those areas would gradually be drained away. that is all i have to say to the republicans in the audience. that republican does not care about spending. they don't care about the size of government like they used to, like you remember them. that is not the republican today. host: we will go to minnesota. eddie. democratic color. guest: i think it was a good deal that was passed. what about the roads in our city? minneapolis, chicago, we have potholes.

i think it was a good deal that passed. and the democrats in the house and the senate should go with biden. host: all eyes will turn to the senate today. they are expected to move to this legislation quickly, maybe as early as today. the senate majority leader chuck schumer and the minority leader mitch mcconnell in agreement that this legislation, brokered by the speaker and the president, should get to the senate floor as soon as possible and should not be held up. richard and south lyon, michigan. independent. guest: i just -- caller: i just have a question, comment. in the preamble to the

constitution, it says the government will provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare. to those words mean different things? my comment is what is -- when is our cowardly president going to get his but at a press conference and to questions at random? host: paul in arizona, democratic caller. caller: good morning. i am blown away by the ignorance of the right. in 22 we had 116,000 irs agents. about 16,000 actual revenue agents. today we have less even though the population has gone up. 1953 levels were higher than today, yet the population has doubled. don't you think it might take more revenue agents to go after tax cheaters if there is double check -- double tax cheaters?

to collect more revenue, to operate the government. you can't operate your home without money, you can't operate the government. it takes people to go after the tax cheaters and there are plenty of them. host: what do you make of the compromise on this? republicans want to/irs funding, the additional $80 billion. he wanted that all taken away, $21.4 billion. caller: they are protecting the rich. the people over $400,000 a year, they don't want them audited. that is there motors. host: we will continue

throughout washington journal, getting your reaction to the house approving the debt ceiling agreement and the washington post, the economic impact on the deal. families could feel the pinch. new work requirements for adults who receive help through snap. there is a spending cap on the snap program for women, infants and children. short of government estimates for what is needed to feed mothers, pregnant women and their children. another take away, they rocksolid -- a pullback at the federal level would -- trickle down to businesses, causing them

to curb hiring. families would spend less, weakening demand for goods and services. the washington post says overall the plan would not be a big drag on the economy. other parts of the debt agreement would weigh heavily on families and businesses. the deal is expected to have little if any fallout from the nation's economy. the chief economist at a consulting firm wrote that he expects the spending caps to drag down overall economic growth by a modest .3% next year. david in williamsport, indiana. independent. welcome to the conversation. caller: all i am saying about the debt ceiling is the republicans will not allow them to delay taxes to dust raise taxes to finance our debt. we raise taxes, that means the

tax structure, the rich take more money, we took care of our debt and he put us in the black during the clinton administration. after that, republicans took over eight years. and they lowered taxes for the rich. then obama signed a debt ceiling or whatever it was that they signed. they have to -- they have to lower for the rich again. there is no way we can maintain the government without raising taxes on the rich to pay for our needs. the republicans will never allow that. host: a viewer on twitter saying it is about time president biden took the situation seriously and congress passing. can we move on? we hope the president in the house can cut they -- cut this.

adrian in pittsburgh. caller: i wanted to comment that i would like them to pass the deal. what bothers me is the driving force in america is money. and the problem with americans, the government, the best friend, it is ignorance. we go back to ronald reagan. what happened to the mental institutions? all of these people are on the streets. if they still had mental institutions, many of them would be there. one more point. everything is for the rich, like a retired policeman told me years ago that the policemen were there to protect the rich

and ignorance is the government's best friend. host: adrian from pittsburgh, pennsylvania. order calls coming up this morning on the washington journal. are talking about the house approving the debt limit agreement last night with democratic support and republicans -- and opposition from both the left and the right. joining us this morning is congressman ralph norman, republican of south carolina, served on the budget committee. tell us why you voted no. guest: it was an easy no vote. it is rather interesting that more democrats spoke to this bill than republicans. the bill we set up on april 26 was a basic bill that started the process of cutting spending.

it all made sense. got back was a watered-down -- what we got back was a watered-down version of what we agreed to. 218 republicans with zero democrat votes, it is interesting the democrats have come over and love this bill. i can see why. some of your callers, we live in different universes. you look at this deal, those who supported it, the changes we were eliminating -- $80 billion. what they agreed to was basically the whole thing but $79 billion. it upheld biden's student loan forgiveness, which is the stupidest idea i've ever heard in my life. asking the man on the street to

pay for college tuition. work requirements, medicaid. guess what they cut out? medicaid. which has 96,000 enrollees. that is the big kahuna that they work requirements should have been left in for. for the listeners, 20 hours a week is work. how many of you work longer than 20 hours a week? that is for able-bodied adults without dependents. there is decrease in nondefense spending. what we have in there for the 24 budget was to take the 22 numbers. this bill should have been defeated. we tried to get it defeated, we're going to get conservative,

we are going to get the spending under control next week -- or the senate won't pass it. i'm not in the senate. but to have 100 625 democrats vote for this as opposed to 149 republicans is telling. they all of a sudden like it. host: what was speaker mccarthy to do? the house reproved -- as you know, the house approved only in april, what you wanted to see in the debt limit, but that would not have passed the senate. are your expectations for the speaker realistic? guest: absolutely they are realistic and good for america. he got out treated. i hear that mantra of janet yellen state, you had to do it by june 1, then she changed it to june 5. we sent a letter for her to justify why she -- the country is going to be broke on those dates. i think we deserve that.

if i tell you your car is blowing up, i got to justify that. is it the oil pressure, the transmission? we can't get her to tell us, she has the keys to the economy. she can move money around as she wishes. my only belief is we should have negotiated more. we have the time, not to be put on a time bomb. why did biden go missing in action for 100 days? why did he bring it down this minute, the republicans caved in it should not have happened. host: you said speaker mccarthy was out treated. is this because for him to be removed from his leadership post? guest: what we told mccarthy, it was no secret in our meeting, we had to refute -- we had a few

people got up and spoke and said why did you not tell us this? why did you basically got the bill that we passed without democrat support? he had his reasons and the same ones i mentioned. the senate won't pass it. but we are not in the senate, we control the purse strings. he's got a opportunity to drop the hammer on spending with appropriations. i can't tell you, he said he would, he senate leadership would do that. but this country cannot keep going like it is going. we are addicted to spending. we have a spending problem and i am tired of it. some of your callers said the constitution spells out the role of the federal government is to protect our military. have such a week military now,

our priorities have to be back in order and it starts in the house. should he be replaced? kevin has been speaker for five months and he deserves a chance on the appropriations. now if he lets them basically have free reign on our tax dollars, we will deal with it. but it takes a lot -- who wants the job? you got to have somebody that really does want it and is willing to get in there and do hard work and make good trades for america. what happened last night should not have happened. we should have sent him back to the bargaining table. would we have taken a risk? no. janet yellen would move the date again. they call the bluff. it is not now, when are we going to do it? host: would you say that all republicans of the freedom caucus are in agreement and what you just said, in that they will

give the speaker another chance to prove himself on the appropriations? guest: in my opinion, probably no. a lot of them voted for the bill. you have some that feel strong about it. but i think we give him another chance. i like kevin. but he's got to give somebody that would -- corporations don't pay tax, people pay tax. but to ask you the question, i think we give him another chance as time goes on. we will have this discussion when we go back next week. and see if he has got the will and the determination to do it. because when you look at the

numbers, 70 republicans voted no, so it is telling. host: are you saying that you think the speaker's job is safe for now or are there some in the freedom caucus, some republican -- who will not wait? do you think they will move to vacate the chair? guest: that could happen. i would not be on board with that now but i'm just one vote. jim bishop michigan is a friend of mine. the great conservative. i would suspect there is a frustration level. the american people, they fired the democrats last november.

the american people expected -- conservatives, expected conservatives to deliver. the bill we have that we put out there, it was a good bill. it did not go far enough in my opinion but it was -- it was a start. what we ended up with, we don't put up with that. the appropriations is next and we will see how it goes. host: on the appropriations, are you on board with cutting spending on defense as well as nondefense spending? guest: defense has got to be reallocated. our defense now, which is $800 billion, 700 billion, i think the increase was 3% in the budget which was a good thing, but you have to reallocate money. the reason the recruitment for our military is down 30 some percent is they are sick of the woke dollars going not to build

ships, not to build state-of-the-art airplanes. it is going in the wrong direction. this administration has completely handcuffed the military. we could not fight a war if we had to. we are the laughingstock. and our military needs to be increased. which has a reallocation of dollars. and the nondefense discretionary has got to be cut. it is always been a hang with democrats. they want to spend more on nondefense than they do on defense and look at what is happening around the world. look what china is getting ready to do to taiwan. i would look at defense. but it needs to be increased, but in the right ways. the right allocations. it is not there now. host: what do you know about the strategy by minority leader hakeem jeffries when the roll was being voted on yesterday in the house? to flash a green card to democrats to get them to come

forward and vote yes when it was clear the republicans did not have enough votes to approve the role and move on to a final vote on this debt deal? guest: it proves they liked the deal. how is it they garnered 106 he five yeses went back in march they do not like the deal? the original deal, they do not like back then. but they like this more than republicans. the numbers don't lie. 149 republicans out of to two, 32% of republicans did not like that. i don't know how he got them over, how the democrats change their minds. but if you ask them individually, i think they like it. host: they were reporting there

was a deal made between speaker jeffries and mccarthy, that if democrats knew the rules, the speaker would offer concessions this summer and fall. guest: if he cut a deal, that is wrong. i know politics, i have been around long enough to know the deals are cut. with the state this country is in, if that is true, that will, in the next coming weeks. if a deal is cut, it will,. i assume, and maybe i am pollyanna, that they like the deal. i hope mccarthy did not cut a deal. it was very quiet, the vote showed it off and it was a hush of the entire 435 members.

all of a sudden, you saw democrats come in and save the bill, which i wish they had not done. but i assume they like it. if something was given, that will be interesting in the next couple of weeks. host: i will read from the post, they said democrats stressed that the support from the parliamentary vote would not come without a price later on. mccarthy's office did not respond to a request from comment, but when asked by reporters whether he would need to cut a deal, to have them both in the room, mccarthy responded, no. guest: i taken for his word. i hope that is true. host: we always appreciate your time. thank you for talking with us. we appreciate it. we will take a short break. we come back we will continue to

look at the debt limit deal that was passed. andrew desiderio, reporter from punch bowl news, joins us to talk about the copper mines bill and the prospects in the senate. later, the host of the public radio full disclosure, discussing the impact of the debt ceiling debate on market volatility and the long-term health of the nation's economy. we will be right back. ♪ ♪ >> since 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, c-span has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress, from the house and senate floors to congressional hearings, committee meetings. c-span gives you a front row seat and how issues are debated and decided with no commentary, no interruptions and completely unfiltered.

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about the man from ohio who -- including those who serve between 1958 in 1920, grant, garfield, harrison, mckinley, william penn and warren harding. and at 9:00 p.m., tom hanks, actor and producer of a short film about the racist history of the 1876 presidential contest talks about the controversial race between rutherford b hayes and his opponent. watch american history tv, saturdays on c-span2 and find a full schedule on your program e, or watch online anytime at c-span.org/history. ♪ >> sunday night on q&a, in his book lost and broken, washington state democratic congressman adam smith details his struggle living with chronic pain and his

efforts to find the right treatment. he talked about the u.s. health care system and the ability to meet the needs of americans with physical and mental health issues. >> the problem with the anxiety and the pain hit is i had no idea what to do. when i was trying to accomplish something in life, i thought i can't do it, of god. very self pitying. but i would be like, what are you going to do? it is not going to work. the little yellow notepad, what are we going to do? or i was running for state senate. i could goat knock on doors, i could do something. here, what can i do? i have this feeling of anxiety, i can't sleep, i'm in pain, trying to exercise but i can't. i was lost. host: adam smith about his book

"lost and broken." listen to q&a or our podcasts on the free c-span now at -- app. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back with andrew desiderio, senior reporter, talking about the agreement in the senate. how quickly could the upper chamber take this up? >> they could get started as soon as today and finish if they want to do. that is unlikely. but it has been the overwhelming nature of the houseboat last night, it got over 300 votes and there is optimism. the senate could finish this before the weekend. but obviously any individual senator can grind the process to a halt. without consent, it would take until the middle of next week to pass it. that is past that date the

treasury department has set. we will be watching closely. host: what should our viewers be watching for? guest: the first thing is whether leader schumer files closure. that means they have not reached an agreement yet. i expect that is what he will deal because it is early in the process. what he has to do at this point is basically get out amendment votes to senators. there are senators on both sides of the aisle who are demanding votes to change the bill. his goal is to make sure none of those boats clear the threshold. you change the bill, you got to send it back to that house and schumer said that would mean an automatic default. host: there would be not enough time on the clock for the house to approve it. guest: exactly. host: who should our viewers be watching for, which senators want to? guest: a lot of them. the minority whip on the republican side has heard from a

dozen republican offices that want to offer a minutes. a number of democrats want to offer amendments as well. the main ones we are looking at our first and foremost from senator rand paul who wants even more strict spending cuts to the topline numbers over the next five or 10 years. second, senator mike lee who does not like the deal wants to eliminate some of the authority that the white house has with regard to the provisions. the big group of republicans, defense hawks, who are not happy with the fact that the defense spending is capped at the president's budget request. that will be with a lot of republicans, they have said the -- there was a cut after inflation. this is something they're going to try to change. even mcconnell, who was for it

raising the defense cap in the budget legislation is going to make sure the amendment does not pass. if any of the a minutes pass, you've got to the house. host: referring to mitch mcconnell, what have the talks been like between the majority leader, senator schumer, the minority leader senator schumer, -- with regards to the urgency to pass this bill, the need to get it done as soon as possible, the need for senators to pass amendment requests, to get them on the table quickly, vote on them, then you'll back the time they have been granted as a result of the amendment. they have been on the same page -- we expect they would be at a 60 vote threshold.

host: we're talking about the outlook of the debt limit agreement. it could come as early as today in the upper chamber. your thoughts on this, the debt limit deal. what the prospects are for the senate, democrats dial-in at -- republicans first this month, republicans (202) 748-8000. democrats (202) 748-8001, and independents (202) 748-8002. texans as well, include your city and state, at -- texts as well, include your city and state at (202) 748-8003. and tweet at c-span wj. there are progressives as well. senator bernie sanders is one of them. any more? host: -- guest: only a few, the one from

oregon, and the senator from massachusetts. we expect it to grow. this is a group of progressives who have been saying the president has the authority under the 14th amendment to raise the debt limit unilaterally without congress and he should not be exceeding these republican demands to spending cuts, tied to raising the debt limit. the progressive opposition in the house last night was not as much as we anticipated for it to be. it was almost a free vote, a way for them to say i do not like the bill but it is better than defaulting on our debt. i expect it will be the same for a lot of progressive senators. they will make sure it clears before some of them end up voting no. but for many of them, it will be a free vote. they can express their

displeasure by voting against it. host: we heard the speaker promised 150 votes. that he would deliver the 150 votes for this deal. one vote shy of 149. what if any conversation has been had about what senate republicans deliver for the votes and democrats? guest: you need to give or take 30 from each party. republicans architecting at least half of their conference, at least when he five members. the opposition we are seeing from hard-line conservatives and progressives is very loud. there are a lot of passionate feelings about this legislation on both sides. both republicans and democrats, with the leadership, are going to have to make sure that there

caucus has put up enough votes to get to that recession. host: you mentioned that will be the first step by the majority leader. explain for people who are not watching the senate every day. guest: it is the first procedural step the majority leader needs to take to limit debate. in the senate, everything has to be debated for 30 hours. basically filing cloture means you are setting off an initial procedural vote. it would mean an initial procedural vote on saturday. there try to wrap this up before then. if there is no consent, no agreement, in terms of shortening the sign, first vote would be on saturday. there would be another on sunday, and you would have final passage tuesday or wednesday. that is the first case scenario for senate leadership. they're trying to make sure they can get the time agreement and

you know ms. consent from all senators. and make sure they don't have to jump through procedural hoops. host: when the majority leader files cloture, which today, setting up two days from now, will there be a vote on cloture to start the debate? inset a -- is that a text vvote? guest: it depends on the willingness of senators offering movements and demanding them, to yield back some of their time and agree to a quick vote. we could see initial procedural vote as soon as today. but it will depend on a lot of stars aligning. it will depend on kitchen mcconnell and chuck schumer getting this in mind to make sure they can get this over the finish line. host: who are you talking to next, what is key here? guest: the big thing is trying

to get to a time agreement. anything in the senate takes unanimous consent. you need all 100 senators to agree on what to do and how to shorten it if you are. all of the senators so far who said they want amendments have indicated they are not looking to necessarily slow down the process -- they say they don't see any benefit to holding it hostage and a couple of days for no reason when it is going to pass. many of the senators who want amendment votes are trying to make points and a lot of this amounts to an exercise in futility, political theater, as there always is in the knighted states senate. that is what it is going to come down to. host: what time today gavel in? guest: 10:00 a.m. host: 10:00 a.m. on c-span2, you

can watch on c-span two, our website, c-span.org or follow along on our mobile app, c-span now. the tear from jeffrey in north carolina. caller: good morning, thank you for having me. i have a question that has been pondering a. i don't know about the american public, but this is important, to take care of this matter. i pray to god it is handled in the right way. my question to the gentleman this morning is how is it behind closed doors, that they are spending trillions of dollars passing with no issue on going to mars, going to the moon. that money is necessary for mankind on earth. people are in dire situations. i'm very puzzled and in conflict

that the government does this and spends trillions of dollars on who is going to benefit from that. it is considered -- confusing. host: andrew desiderio. guest: there is no argument against that in the senate. with the legislation does is sets the budget caps for the next several years. it is not saying what this has to be sent on -- spent on, that is for them to figure out by the end of this fiscal year. but really, it is just about spending the caps, not necessarily allocating funds for specific programs. host: let's talk about kevin mccarthy and his future here. we were talking to a member of the freedom caucus, he voted no on the legislation. he did say he will give the speaker another chance before he works with others to vacate the chair. he did say others won't move

more quickly. but he said the speaker has only been in this position for five months. i will wait to see what he does on appropriations. guest: that has been a balancing act throughout the debt ceiling saga. it's the majority of this party voting for us, there were complaints from people like ralph norman, others who voted against the legislation but there were more democrats who voted for this bill than republicans. i was never a stipulation as part of the deal they reached when he became speaker in the first place. it is fueling the outrage on the right toward kevin mccarthy. they use the motion to vacate. what this would depend on is democrats joining with the motion to vacate. we are told democrats are not

interested in the drama and chaos that surrounds the speakership vote. as we saw a few months ago. it was 15 rounds to get him installed. democrats have no interest in redoing that again and helping play into it. if it comes to that, it is likely the majority of democrats will act to keep kevin mccarthy in place because they think the alternative would be even worse. host: we learned about the role minority leaders hakeem jeffries played in getting enough votes for the rule, a test vote in-house procedure. the rule has to pass in order to move to the final vote. what can you tell us about the deal he made or how he was able to get enough democrats to vote for the rule. guest: the entire thing that happened yesterday was that they did not need to go to the rules committee. when you look at the number of people who ended up voting for it, it was more than two thirds.

in the house, you don't need to go to the rules committee if it is two thirds vote. it would be a suspension bill, suspension of the role. there are many pieces of legislation that passed the house on a daily basis, what is called a suspension process. they don't need to go to the rules committee. it is only something you can't -- you worry you can get to two thirds. this was one of them and i wanted -- they wanted to have a orderly debate. that is why they did it, but in the end they did not have to go to the rules committee because it exceeded the two thirds threshold. host: what you think happens next between these leaders? guest: they have talked about their relationship. they were together when they need to uncertain certain things and they talk a lot. i think some people were surprised by that after kevin mccarthy became speaker.

but a lot of things in the house have to happen because of the cooperation of the speaker and the minority leader. mccarthy knows that from his time serving as the minority leader and leadership in many years. i can jeffries is new to leadership so this has been a test for him. but what we have seen so far shows they are able to work together when they need to in order to stave off chaos and drama. host: a republican in pennsylvania. mary. caller: i am not going to get a check unless they settle this and i have bills to pay. i am almost 80 years old. this is not fair to people like me. guest: this legislation does not touch social security.

what the gentlelady is referring to is the fact that if we were to default, there would be questions about whether social security checks would be able to go out to people like her and medicare and medicaid as well. in the government for those obligations. with the passage of this legislation, we will avoid that. in terms of the specific bill, it's to avoid the outcome. host: it now moves to the senate. the senate is expected to take up the agreement today and the republican and democratic party leaders in the senate hoping to move quickly, we'll see what happens. the deadline for avoiding default and not sending out those payments for social security is monday, june 5. robert in indiana, independent. caller: thank you for taking my call. i would like you to mention, you do an outstanding job. i did want to see guests to

comment on this and looking at federal spending over the last several years, it is obvious there was a huge jump from 2019, where 4.4 5 trillion was spent to 2020 when $6.55 trillion was spent. that continues to follow between 21 fiscal year, and in 2022, 6 .27. it does not take a rocket scientist to see that had to do with the pandemic. similarly, the revenue coming in one up at a similar pace as the last several years. isn't it obvious that the republicans and democrats, and again i am an independent, need to take a look at the jump that occurred relative to federal spending because of the pandemic and bring things back in line? c-span.org -- guest: that is a lot of what was

driving the debate in the first place. republicans were unanimous, believing this should be used to cut federal spending. democrats believed the issue of spending should not be tied to the debt limit, they wanted a clean debt when it increase. but there are many democrats who have expressed the same view which is that yes, the federal government has been spending too much and we need to get our fiscal health in order, particularly after covid when the federal government was spending insane amounts of money to keep the economy afloat and help people out who work suffering as a result of the pandemic. this is something many of those democrats have expressed that sentiment and believe should be addressed as part of the appropriations process later this year, not necessarily part of the debt ceiling fight. i think there is broader bipartisan agreement than we think when it comes to the issue of limiting dutch -- letting

federal spending. there is disagreement about the process. host: where does senator joe manchin stand on the belt? guest: hate is for it -- he is for the bill. he got a victory, the natural gas pipeline in the state of west virginia got final approval as part of this debt limit bill. people were surprised it ended up in there but senator manchin is an important vote for the white house on a number of priorities, including nominations for them. so senator manchin was very happy about this, running for reelection. this is a good thing for him to tout. host: he is up in 2024? guest: he is, he is not said if he is running but he is positioning himself in that direction. his counterpart in west virginia, a republican, member of the republican leadership who has been pushing this for a long time as well. senator manchin is happy with the outcome. i know we are talking about a

minutes earlier. a democrat of virginia has an amendment that would strip the provision from the legislation. senator kaine is not happy about it. he believes it would bypass the normal permitting and approval process for these types of energy projects and it should not have been included in the debt ceiling bill at all. the senate would probably vote on that amendment, if they maintain the assistance -- insistence that that happens. but the goal for senator schumer and mcconnell's to make sure it does not get close to 60 votes. host: so we could see debate over the inclusion of this pipeline on the senate floor, the senate dabbles in at 10:00 a.m. eastern time, you can watch on c-span2, our website c-span.org or follow along on our app. doug, newport virginia, republican. caller: republicans and

democrats need to not use the language of cutting social security, medicare and the military because of entitlements. they don't understand we have been forced to pay. went into harms way those benefits. welfare, wic, snap, those are entitlements. you are scaring older people that you don't need to be doing that for. these people cannot do their jobs, resign. we can put new people in their that can learn how to balance a household budget because we are sending too much money to china and russia. that should be being used here and we need to get our energy back up and running the way it was because we cannot go. even elon musk says we not -- cannot go totally green. we are the only company doing it. host: i will jump in. guest: when social security and medicare, these entitlement programs, there was insistence early on from both parties that

these would not be touched at all. there are some republicans in particular that believe these programs need to be reformed over time so in order to maintain their solvency, that is a separate debate from what we saw occur because there was broad agreement among both parties that social security and medicare should not be touched as part of any sort of debt ceiling agreement and spending cuts. host: before we let you go, tell us what happens when the senate gavels in. what shall be we be watching for? guest: for chuck schumer to file an initial procedural step. in the meantime, he will be working to secure a time agreement to make sure they can pass this. hopefully before the weekend and senators obviously love to preserve their weekends, their ability to go home for the weekend, even if it is for a quick when he four to 36 hours. they are like the rest of us, liking to preserve our weekends. there is a possibility of course anyone senator could drag out this entire process.

as i mentioned, there does not seem to be a desire to do that, even among the most vehement components of the legislation. host: you can follow andrews reporting if you go to twitter and you can follow them online as well. thank you very much, appreciate it. host: we will take a short break and, later on on the "washington journal," we will talk about how markets may react if the senate does not move quickly on this legislation. robin farzad will be with us, in economics reporter and public radio, the host of that, we wil talk to him coming up on the "washington journal." the first, more of your calls. the house passed the debt limit deal. the bill is now headed to the senate. what do you think? there arehe lines on your screen. start dying laying in. -- dialing in. ♪ announcer: book tv every sunday

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listening to programs on c-span through c-span radio got easier. tell your smart speaker play c-span radio and listen to "washington journal" daily at 7:00 a.m. eastern, importing congressional hearings and other public affairs events throughout the day and weekdays at 5:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. eastern. washington today for a fast-paced report of the stories today. listen to c-span anytime. tell your smart speaker play c-span radio. c-span, powered by cable. announcer: "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back on this thursday, june 1. we are talking about the house approving the debt limit agreement brokered by the speaker and president. washington from page this morning praising the speaker. mccarthy sways conservatives to seal the debt deal. we are getting your reaction.

to the vote in the house, the bill now headed to the senate. jo in georgia, republican. good morning. caller: good morning, greta. watching a great network for 30 years. i think the bill ought to ps but i'm disappointed that we did not get more spending cuts. i hope mccarthy and the house will come back soon with more spending cuts because we have a $30 trillion deficit and we must, for the sake of american taxpayers, must cut spending more in the future. host: were you listening when ralph norman was on? he said, for now, the speaker's job is at stake. he wants to see what he does on appropriation. caller: i like mccarthy, but i think he needs to be tougher on spending. i think they did not do a good job with the $30 trillion debt. we need to cut spending much more, but i give mccarthy credit for doing what he did but

i would like to have somebody that would do more on cutting spending. host: they can only afford four defections. how does he get appropriations through both the house and senate without compromising the democrats? caller: the democrats, as you noted last night, it passed with a lot of democrat votes. i think that will happen in the senate. i think the bill will pass and president biden will sign it, but i think we need to do more on energy. we need to go back to being energy independent. but anyway, i am fired up, at least we are cutting some spending but i love c-span. you do a great job and so do your anchors, great network. host: joe in georgia, republican color. longtime watcher and someone that calls in expecting the 30 day rule. we appreciate that. joe talking about the speakership and louisiana congressman garrett graves was tapped by speaker mccarthy to be one of the two negotiators with

the white house. here's what congressman graves had to say about what the republicans got in this compromise and rule the speaker played -- role the speaker play. >> the white house mikal kip -- miss calc elated. he has hands-down the best strategy i've ever worked with and it's amazing to be with him behind closed doors and to see someone think not just about the next step but five to six step down has been incredible. don't take my word for it, look at the bills that he has delivered this congress with this type majority. it was a major miscalculation on their part and it is why they have tire tracks on them in this negotiation. it is why we reign over them in negotiations on seven of their redlines and it is why you see them trying to sell this and spend it in a way. host: congressman saying the

white house tire tracks on them after these negotiations with house republicans. the bill approved pre-hundred 14 to 117, it took 165 democrats, more democrats, to get it over the finish line. 149 republicans. those two joining together because there was operate -- opposition from the left and right. there were 71 republicans who opposed, 46 democrats also opposed. one of those that opposed the bill was congressman chip roy, republican of texas, member of the freedom caucus. here's what he had to say. >> i listened to the gentleman from massachusetts, wax on, talking about governing. we do not govern, mr. mcgovern, we represent. that is what we are supposed to do anyway, represent the people of this country. fed up with a government that is 40% bigger since the beginning of covid.

hey government barreling toward $36 trillion in debt and absolute devastating burden on the future of this country on our children and grand children. we are not going to afford homes, afford to go to school, not be able to afford food, groceries, talk about food programs, i don't want to hear a hell of a lot about what we're doing to devastate american families with rampant inflation because we keep spending money we don't have. to my colleagues on the side of the aisle, my beef is not that i don't understand the struggle with the negotiators. my beef is you cut a deal that should not have been cut. the fact is at best we have a two-year spending freeze full of loopholes and gimmicks that would allow for increased funding for the federal the rock or c in order to achieve a $4 trillion increase in the debt by january 1, 2025. $4 trillion. we have permitting reforms which might have some good elements in

it, but the problem is you have the administration saying it accelerates implementation of the historic clean energy and environmental adjustments and inflation reduction, the policy destroying the american way of life and making them unable to afford energy and afford food. we have watered-down work requirements, the cbo will increase the cost of snap by $2 billion. i suppose it 1% automatic topline reduction in spending at the end of the year that will make a christmas i'm the best more likely. a 2% cut to bidens 80% irs expansion. 2% of that $80 billion expansion . administrative paygo i'm told. we are not going to do the reeds act or constrain the regulatory state, we will do a waivable administrative paygo. we will pass a bill next week and it will die in the senate. why are we not using this leverage? it puts scotus on the biden

administrations have trillion dollar student loan bailout, billions on a covid dollars left untouched, to find vaccines in covid-19 testing, and the laws of our biggest leverage point divorced biden to secure the southern border. i encourage my colleagues to vote no bang on the rule and oppose this legislation. host: conservative congressman chip roy of texas there in opposition to the debt limit deal. george in utah, independent, what do you think of it? >> i'm tired of these back and forth, telling each other they should not do this and do that. they want to take away our social security that i have worked for for almost 65 years. host: social security was not touched. caller: i know, but they have stole all this money, the democrats and republicans, stole this money and used it to fight these wars and say they

would pay the loan back and they have not paid any back. the other thing i have to say is congress and republic, why don't we cut their wages? they don't care about the working people like us. i'm still working at 78. and i'm still trying to get by. but they are still cutting everything and they want to take away what we have worked for all our lives and they are worried about spending this money. trump i guess spent $8 trillion, he raised it, but everybody wants to blame biden. hiding came in with a big mess and i have been listening to c-span for quite a while and i love watching you guys. you guys are great. host: stephen in michigan says we will only solve the problem when there must fee tax increases along with spending cuts. the only way the problems will be solved. jim in arizona, republican. what do you think of the job done by speaker mccarthy in brokering this deal with the president?

jim? i'm talking to you. what do you think of the job done by the speaker? caller: it's from arkansas, but that's ok. host: i'm sorry. caller: that's fine. i like the job he has done. like everybody else i wish he had gone farther but you gotta take what you can get when you have the political situation we have. i think something that hardly anybody talked about, most states have a balanced budget amendment and that would solve these problems. i don't see why we need for choi in dollars we take in. we have to feed that are run the government. doesn't seem like we have that money. speakers doing a good job and at some point on the road i would vote for him for president. this is not the atmosphere for that but somewhere down the road i think he is a good person with a good heart and i think he is

good at getting people to come together that do not cii to find common ground a lot for us. host: let's listen to the speaker yesterday after that vote was approved in the evening time in the house. he went before reporters and touted what was in this agreement. announcer: -- [video clip] >> not only did we give you the greatest savings in american history, there's going to be people on welfare today that will no longer be on welfare. that they will find a job because of work requirements. and not just when they find the job their self-worth, their attitudes will change, they will believe in themselves, they will be able to buy house and send their kids to college because of the vote tonight. because the vote tonight, the largest rescission in american history. all of the covid money, billions of dollars out there that they

said they would never bring back , to the taxpayer, to the hard-working americans, we stood for you. we brought that money back. for those who are afraid they would get on -- audited because the president once 87,000 new irs agents, right now he has zero. we took every single dollar they were going to hire somebody this year away. i promise you i will be back next year and next year and next year. because i believe government should be here to help you, not go after you. we did not just take the money from this year, we took another $20 billion. i think we should get some more border agents with the $20 billion. i think that is what america would want to see us go. we cap the ability of growth, of spending in government the next six years. we are holding people accountable to do the work

you're supposed to do as a member. otherwise, cuts across the board. we are on shackling what holds america back in competition with other countries. for the first time in 40 years, we changed the environmental review process so you don't have to wait seven years on average to build the roads. you can do it in one or two. it's not just the bridges and not just the roads, it is the energy projects that will make us energy independent. we stopped $400 million going from the cdc global health fund, not to americans but taking americans money to send to china. i believe in looking after america first. more than two thirds of our conflict -- conference voted for it.

all the democrats in discharge position and said they would never raise the debt ceiling only raised it clean. got them to vote for it too. think of how much further we could go. speaker of the house last night after the bill was approved in the house with support from 106 he five democrats and 104 republicans. we are getting your reaction to the house representatives approving the debt limit deal and it moves to the senate. when in minneapolis, democratic caller, what do you say? i believe they held -- caller: i believe the republicans held them hostage over the debt ceiling. should have been a clean that bill because they have an opportunity to balance the budget in october. so this was wrong from the start but i'm glad they did get -- that they were able to get something done, get an agreement

to keep people on social security from being held hostage. host: do you blame democrats? do you have a concern with how it is handled by the president? caller: no. i think he did the best he could with what he had but i believe when it comes time to set the budget, the republicans are not going to get a lot, they are not going to get what they want because, yeah, they won't be able to hold them hostage then so they only hurt themselves because they won't get what they want when it comes time to set the budget. host: gwen's thoughts in minnesota. the wall street journal editorial for conservative newspaper writes that the republican debt limit reality check in their editorial today. they say speaker mccarthy is not an optical -- obstacle, biden's. they write the claim by conservatives mccarthy could have held out for more, they say

brings been ship is not risk-free and cutting it closer to the default a deadline risks responsibility for downgrade in the u.s. treasury -- credit rating or impartial government shutdown. biden would have been blamed but so would house republicans. mr. mccarthy had to make a judgment call about the policy trees and talks and political risk he might run if he held up for more. john in california, a republican. let's hear from you. what do you think? caller: let me start by saying i turned 80 this year and i refer to myself as a political first responder in that i was a registered democrat in the early 70's or late 60's. when california through out the u.s. senator republicans majority whip, i thought the democrats don't need me, i need

to be republican. having said that, -- the other thing is i taught government at college level for number of years. this debt limit was a constitutional question. the 14th amendment said you shall pay the debt. it is a command verb that says you have to do it. so what should happen here is biden should alert the congress that if they fail to pass this bill by the deadline before default, he will exercise his duty from his public statement prior to being president and he will preserve, protect, and defend the cause edition. no other element has that authority. if you want to know the other

relationships, everybody else in government supports the government including the supreme court. if biden says that, if he puts out a statement now that there will not be a default, congress has the check on him to pass by extraordinary majority to override his statement as they did with the war power act. he has the constitutional authority to say a debt limit is unconstitutional and get rid of it, and the consequence of this is a weakening of the dollar, which would probably increase american labor opportunity to compete with the rest of the world. host: glenn in louisiana, texting us to say the debt was less than $1 trillion 43 years ago. i don't care how or why the government has continued to spend and hand out money the

country did not have for so many decades. but it is something i never would've signed on for nor do i know anyone who would. it is the opposite of serving america's interest first and has been more about the interests of d.c. as we set all morning, now the senate will take up this debt limit deal. they could do it as quickly as today. the senate will gavel in 10:00 a.m. eastern time and you can watch our coverage on c-span two c-span.org, or our free mobile app, c-span now. minority leader mitch mcconnell republican in kentucky praising this agreement between the speaker and president. >> as you may recall, i said in february the way forward on the debt ceiling was for the speaker and president to sit down and discuss the matter. it took the president months to accept the reality of a divided

government and debt ceiling situation is a time for negotiations. seven out of the last 10 debt ceiling's have included other items. now the drama is in the house, we anticipate the bill passing and coming over to us as soon as tomorrow. we had a healthy discussion at lunch about the pros and cons. i would say most of my members who have objections would like to do more of the things already in the bill. i think speaker mccarthy should be congratulated on capturing a number of priorities. the best way to look at the difference, two years ago, we

were in the process of spending $1.9 trillion. last year, another $750 billion. so we have gone from one party spending 2.7 chilean dollars in two years to a disgusting amount about reducing government -- to a discussion about reducing government spending. i think this has already yielded benefits for our country. host: mitch mcconnell endorsing this debt deal brokered by the speaker and the president. we will see what happens when the senate take set up. they are expected to do so as early as today. he mentioned his party opposed. one is mike lee of utah. here's what he had to say on the house floor. [video clip] >> the burden of national debt

and the rip of inflation have placed at that dutch placed us at this critical juncture, demanding nothing less than a resolute and visionary response. regrettably, the lopsided lee negotiated fiscally responsibly -- fiscally responsible act hailed by speaker mccarthy and president biden aims to provide respite our nation desperately needs. rather than offering substance have solutions to tackle the root causes of our fiscal was, it appears to be a palliative pill. it is a bad deal for america, a missed opportunity to confront our challenges and abdication of responsibility to protect americans economic security and well-being. we can and must do better. host: senator mike lee on the senate floor, opposed, he wants to offer amendment's a handful of other republicans and democrats. tune into c-span2 for our

coverage when they gavel in a 10:00 a.m. eastern time. we will take a short break and when we come back, we will talk about the economics of this debt limit deal. roben farzad will join us. he is the host of the podcast, full -- announcer: browse through our selection of c sent -- c-span products, apparel, books, home to core, and recipes. there something for every c-span fan and every purchase help support our nonprofit organization. shop now at c-span shop.org. >> c-span's camping 2024 coverages your front row seat to the presidential election. watch our coverage of the candidates on the campaign trail with announcements, meet and greets, speeches, to make up

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announcer: "washington journal" continues. host: robert with us this morning, the host of public radio full disclosure here to talk about the debt ceiling and u.s. economy. let's begin with a potential default if the senate cannot move quickly enough. guest: i don't think they are wearing, chuck schumer already said he would rapidly sign it into the white house. i think so much of the brinkmanship and playing chicken element over the years, we originally felt this terror in 2011, the summer of 2011 when the united states had its credit rating downgraded by standard & poor's and the markets. think of how much the national debt has increased in the time cents. if there are lessons learned in moral hazard, it is hard for me to find them. markets are largely daunting

about it and going back to thinking about the fed and other secular and economic issues outside of this. host: is that good for americans investing in the stock market that they are yawning? guest: i think it is problematic that people think maybe it is a cry wolf for chicken, something could go wrong. you had janet yellen having people take this serious and we might follow the cliff and we might run out of money. who wants that lack i for the largest economy on the planet, the most creditworthy debt on the planet, the most support and interest rates, the greenback, u.s. dollar, everything involved. a manufactured self owned so you would think there would be much more fear, much more loathing, but it was rather muted this time around. host: you heard some house republicans saying she needs to show us her work and show us the numbers that we would actually default on june 5.

where was the evidence that that was a risk? guest: there were numbers trickling out, but in terms of revenue in and checks going out, that we would hit that around that time. do you really want to hit up against that? you have to be mindful of how much money you have in the bank, you will make a massive purchase, drain it or put a down payment on a house, you don't want to do that if you have a couple grand in your bank account and this is the u.s. treasury. so much cash flow, money coming in and out the door. you have to take her at face value. why could she not say july 4? this is serious and i think the brinkmanship on the other end, this is leverage. we have talked about it before. how may times under both parties cleaned up bills -- bills have been passed over the better part of the last 100 years? often times it gets politicized in weaponized, and i think peak anxiety was in 2011 and

certainly seems like ancient history now. seems like fiscal cliffs and debt ceiling's and whatever metaphor you want to throw out, these things investors, mom and pop depositors and the like, they are focused on other things. host: you mentioned in 2011 the credit rating downgraded from aaa status. first explain what is it mean that we have aaa status and what does a downgrade entail? guest: aaa is the creme de la creme. you are the honors ap plus student going great places, good for your money. it's kind of like aaa in shopping centers of starbucks, good for rent, predicable cash flows, not a risk of ruin. the united states is not a banana republic, it does not have a record of default like argentina or other emerging markets. so that gained over the course of decades and decades and centuries so you don't want to

scrap that. that would affect your borrowing cost, getting a aaa rating to maybe a notch down, but even that relationship did not work because there is something extraordinary about the united states. when things go wrong, even when they go wrong here, it seems like people pile into our debt, not into the chinese yuan or the euro necessarily or bitcoin might have been it. or gold. united states treasury. it is indispensable. that extraordinary status globally helps us keep borrowing costs low and the country, but looking at the debt ceiling now, looking at the national debt, we are rapidly paying a lot more in interest expense that i think was recently imaginable. it clips other vital social programs including medicare not too long from that. host: if united states were to be downgraded, then what would happen to the other economy

going around the world. could it have any impact? guest: if you think the united states is less than aaa, should we scrutinize other countries? should we throw more money into european economy like switzerland. if they take treasuries and put it into other countries, this is the foremost interest rate on the planet, the united states interest rate, and borrowing costs here, credit worthiness and affects our -- everybody up and down. it will not help those seeking imf bailouts but then again, this happened to us and it was not cataclysmic, like going off of the gold standard was not cataclysmic. that is a moral hazard. if people saw after that the things did fall apart in terms of our credit rating, it was unthinkable that would have been. are you really going to

downgrade the united states, we moved on, and markets recovered. so what was the net lesson learned? host: we are talking with roben farzad of the public radio full disclosure. he is the host about the debt ceiling and u.s. economy. republican style in at facebook.com/cspan to join this ash (202) 748-8001. democrats, your line is (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. you can also text at (202) 748-8003. or join us on facebook.com/c-span and in a tweet with a handle @cspanwj. he said there was not much came back what we lost was there an impact on consumers or the economy? >> it was a pretty sad time.

feels like ancient history but if you recall the summer and fall, the crises of what they called the big economies, portugal, italy, ireland, greece, spain, that credit crisis we had here spread across the pond and the european central bank has to quell that crisis, well into 2012 or 2013. if you want to talk about the stock market and debt market, the pandemic changed everything, the world changed march 2020. worried about indebtedness and the whiteness of feeling on a plummet search to the 15 in a few days. and the government realizing

there is no business interruption insurance generally. we see a risk of a deep recession, even a depression. it was so unprecedented and there is only so much you can learn from the late teens with the spanish flu they called back then. the time of woodrow wilson. so you are not exactly thinking about the national debt, you are thinking about saving everything from catastrophe and collapse and pvp and certainly between both administrations, the trump administration and biden administration, debt was an afterthought. how are borrowing costs were low. if you some of the 10-year treasury yield collapsed to, everyone was piling into this readout of safety, the united states and government debt. that has changed a bit. the fed increased interest rates i think 10 times and we now see banking stress, all other

difficulties. the united states can't necessarily take for granted it will be able to have borrowing at 1% ad infinitum. deafly a different world than it was a year ago. host: do the markets like there was a compromise here between speaker mccarthy and the white house, that federal spending or clawing back some covid spending was on the table? host: it's not -- in line guest: it's not going to make or break things. i think analysts say it is more performative. the markets are speaking about the fed's battle against inflation. are they going to hike in the next meeting? or hike later in the summer. the united states stock market still -- relative to other areas.

what about all these md office spaces? class a office properties, the loans. host: we are talking with roben farzad this warning. we want to get -- involve you in the conversation as well about the economics of the debt deal. let's listen to john in california, democratic caller. any mail might be quicker to my u.s. senators from california, padilla and feinstein. go for the bill, but you need to

remove the not valley pipeline. why is it in there? take that and have that paid down the debt. we need clean air. thank you. host: we go to will in independent -- indiana. caller: thank you for taking the country -- thank you for taking my call. in this country, we determined the deity was a sovereign on the sense of the people i came here that said he was king of america and a by thomas payne. we know the creator is the author of truth and justice so what we has is a congress who was being paid to connect us with our king through mutual consent and debate and argument and laws and the establishment of truth and justice.

that is not being affected. i am an army veteran myself, 68 true believer, to find out the same cia/fbi that cheated this just do line -- host: do you have a questions about the economics of this? caller: yeah. truth is the key. why keep using the term pandemic when we know it was a plandemic and it was the common flu renamed as covid. host: let's not roben farzad's expertise. we are talking about the economy. we will go on to joe, democratic caller. caller: thank you for taking my call. i have a question about the relative cost. if i understand correctly, the debt is 31 join dollars and our gdp is 26 join dollars.

but nobody ever talks about asset base. you knighted states, if i understand it, is worth $100 trillion where we are $30 trillion in the stock market, and 40 to $50 trillion in infrastructure. if we owed you enjoying dollars, but our asset base is $100 trillion, we are not in as much trouble as people think we are. is that correct or do i not understand it? guest: that is a holistic aspect way of doing things. speak to the united states of it add an enterprise value, equity, debt, it will be analogous so much of your market investor. the treasury deal -- dealt long with treasury asset. money coming out the door. there are other things you could calculate how much is a

strategic petroleum reserve, how much gold we have on government lands and the value timber. the highways, the copper pipes and things, these are not immediately liquid things. you ideally want to balance your books and have expenditures roughly approximate what revenue is. but we know in an alexander hamiltonian world of credit, and credit extension, the economy will grow. just like your earnings -- earnings micro and the credit company by extent or credit to you over time, the united states to say a $1 trillion national debt, which might have been alarming as the 1800s are turning to the 1900s. it is a blip on the radar in 2023. i'm not trained to diminish the $32 trillion number.

versus what can be spent on social programs. you talk about health care, about rainy day funds, about high-speed rail. this is actually eating us. it is personal finance. if you are uncritical balance too much overtime or student debt, so much of your cash flow, so much of your economic activity is just to pay off the net interest on it, you're just treading water. this is something that has the fingerprints. when people are in power ash power and have those embedded in the white house, this idea of fiscal hawkish nose and prudence , that is put on the back burner. there is plenty of blame to go around. the other side of it is on the economy grows, it grows quite well. look at the 1990's and there's nothing that those of coffers

like economic growth and tax receipts coming into the fed. in capital gains and the like, capital formation. that is maybe where you see a bridge of the gap of cash flow versus the great points you make, the hard assets we have in the united states which would eclipse this debt amount that seems staggering now. host: van in el paso texas texted you with this question, what would you say to people and politicians who compare the u.s. economy to a household. -- housel? guest: it's only soviet -- household? guest: it is only so valid. there are people that go into economic distress or credit card hopping or do certain things and you think about your freshman credit card application. there is only so much systemic risk out of that. you have personal bankruptcies all the time or workouts with

the banks or mortgage company. when it happens to the united states, it is filling the world's foremost economic engine. i know china is nipping at our heels but this affects every other interest rate on the planet, affects just the defense budget and the united states. all the people of the united states expecting social security checks are expecting their medicare and medicaid reimbursements, the doctors out there, the functioning of washington, d.c. along with various other federal efforts and expenditures. that is immediately systemic in the united states default and campaign. the ripples are felt across the world in the banking system, which overwhelmingly the united states is still the world's banking capital. you are talking about a depression. it was only so analogous the family finances and one family having credit difficulty. the united states is still the

number one economy on the planet and most important creditor, most important government spender, so you don't want to risk that. it is unthinkable. it is one thing to happen to argentina or to thailand or to a frontier economy are the philippines. it is another thing for it to happen to something like a behemoth of the size of the united states. host: you mentioned what is going on with banks and the recent crisis are regional banks. what is wall street watching on this? what are some of the vulnerabilities here? >> it is really an embarrassment of riches. if you told me the predictions for 2023 if you have to the bank failures -- biggest bank failures in history, you say why would that happen if you try to interpolate? i say commercial property or sort of ridiculous event in this moment? no, there was so much cash on

the sideline, companies were so flush and they were keeping working capital for so long that the banks got complacent with insurance, $250,000 amount. they were vulnerable. when people suddenly whiffed vulnerability or bank took paper losses on government debt, the interest rate was hiked what 10 times the past year? massively powerful and lucrative banks like silica and valley bank and others failed. first republic it would have been inconceivable. it has only made the two big failed banks like j.p. morgan and bank of america stronger. it is not quite over yet, especially if the fed is not on hiking rates. we have not had inflation for such a long time. there is not an institutional memory for these bank treasurers to not make basic, stupid finance 101 errors with depositor money. depositors can be ruthless and

merciless, especially if you take the phone and move the money with a few strokes. it is not like showing up it's a wonderful life and demanding access to your cash. these were all pixels left and right, normalizing capitalizing his editions. host: explain what happens for those that may be don't understand why these banks had these deposits and why it was risky and then the impact of increasing interest rates. caller: interest rates have gotten so low for a long time. the federal reserve had zero interest rate policies and various crises whether 9/11, the financial crisis, pandemic, that brought the federal reserve under several fed chair's to bring it down to zero. to stimulate the economy. thanks have all this cash and they want to put it to use. they are not getting anything

for that cash and they might take a risk and go out further. the fed i think blindsided some new people by taking rates from zero to what? five percent to 5.5%. when they show up on a publicly earnings call saying we have to sell these these are now, it is not pretty. to hold these treasuries, you will get your money back in maturity but to take a significant loss in the interim and to have to fess up on the bank balance sheets, that spooked investors. so they took money out first and ask questions later. as this kind of circulated, everybody kept saying who's next , banks were getting taken out and shot, you see the lead of the nightly news and people are having that conversation of show we take our money out of the smaller bank and maybe put it at a j.p. morgan, bank of america, city, or those already bailed out because they were too big to

fail. it just kills the ecosystem of smaller community banks. they do not have a chance. they have to go raise money and increase their cd rates which should have been the way all around. banks should not have been able to get around, they feel like they are doing you a favor. when it becomes difficult for them to pay out a lot on deposits and turn around and not have great opportunities to capture good margin from what they're loaning out versus what they pay out, these banks are not -- people can see that overnight. host: our next caller, independent. caller: good morning. i am a working-class guy, in my 60's, looking at retirement soon. in my career, i experienced 9/11. we did not see that coming and we took a big hit, the account

he crashed for those that were not alive or do not remember but subsequently, we were kind of recovering from that shot, the peak of my career. we had the financial collapse which was also a huge economic disaster for people like me. and many others, especially retirees and those nearing retirement. we had a pandemic, we had seem to emerge from the pandemic albeit with the debt and continued economic and social problems seems to be head and shoulders above our peers. we're doing better and the united states has been amazingly resilient. host: can you get to your question? caller: yeah. i'm about to make a phone call and pull my money out of my 401(k) and iras because, for the first time i think we have

noticed a financial disaster is about to hit us. should i just sit by and wait to see what happens or to save myself, my small nest egg as an retirement out of safety? get my money out of there because it is safer in cash than those investments and such. host: let's get an answer. roben? guest: if you are approaching retirement maybe you should not be overwhelmingly in risk assets whether it is junk bonds or risk assets. the bond market is offering you because the fed is taking rates higher. so you can get something closer to retirement. i've always said shed a tear for the favors alliterative over the last one he five years. we have had the long stretches of zero interest rate policy and it has been so skewed to those

who are blessed and unfortunate enough and liquid enough to invest in stocks, crypto, real estate, artwork, farmland, everything is done well at times when the fed has been exceedingly stimulative, but it is ever harder to save money or put money out there, especially with inflation being so corrosive. you want to make something north of inflation so you are ahead of the game. it is really difficult of interpolating. the stock market is having a difficult year. the s&p 500 is up 9% largely on the backs of a handful of mega cap trillion dollar plus valued companies. which had rebounds after last year. we also came off of one of the worst years in bond market history. i think time and time again, the lesson is if you diversify, don't put everything in one basket. if you have assets zig when others is that, you will hopefully do better than others

in the long run. if you go back to the early 1920's, you do quite well if you can write out these things. think back to the 20 century, cuban missile crisis, vietnam, the gold standard, 9/11, crash of 1987, pandemic which even when i talked to people who went on to become doctors and public health people i went to college with, they did not study the pandemic that much. it came and hit us and was like a shock and maybe something like that can happen again. maybe it will be another war. who knows. over time, the united states economy and markets assure themselves to be quite resilient. host: we go on to ralph, democratic caller. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. i want to talk about the deficit , the debt that is so high, 31 between dollars. you put a thing up earlier with the speaker that the debt 43 years ago was $1 trillion and

now it is $31 trillion. over those 43 years, one party in particular has sold tax cuts. it does not make any difference whether the economy is going up or down, good, bad, or sideways. tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, but they never cut spending. they actually increase spending while they're doing tax cuts at the same time. i guess they think the boogie man pay for it. i am a boomer and how generation is basically the bulk of voters voted for this and created this. so we bear responsibility for fixing it as far as i'm concerned. host: let's get a reaction. guest: austerity is tough. if you look at the forementioned economies, what the european economies have to do, the sick

patients and students, the student economies, portugal, ireland, spain, to get the bailout money of their finances, they have to agree to huge spending cuts. in public wage worker pull back and all of these things that are very difficult to the extent you see parties have been resurgent and populism has been researching. do you want to take the pain of cutbacks and austerity? think about the hit to the budget right now. the fed seems to be in violent. these are hard things to hit. if you look at foodstamp welfare benefits and the like, they are small slivers versus the big kahuna's but certain things he just can't touch, they are politically toxic to both parties. it is very easy to talk about a strong dollar, debt cutting and be fiscally harsh -- caucus but in practice getting reelected

and trying to hold onto the house or senate or whatever it is, it is brutally difficult to be true to your campaign. host: drew is in minnesota, democratic caller. caller: quick caller. -- quick question, thinking about social security specifically, and a lot of seniors -- i'm currently retired, county commissioner where we tried to make reasonable decisions to support our community. social security has a huge role to play in our economy. i rarely ever hear people talk about the impact of if security was to be damaged or during one of these debt ceiling fiascoes have checks not go out to people who depend on the social security checks. some who are very frail and then they hear the things which gives them a lack of confidence in their leadership. i would like to hear the

economic impact of rural communities and larger cities if social security was to go away. thank you. guest: you can't just pull it away overnight. you might be able to tweak the margins, might be able to increase the age of distributions or change the actuarial tables somehow but saying we are taking it away is some are very frail. they hear these things and it gives them a lack of confidence in leadership. i would like to hear the economic impact on rural communities and larger cities if social security away. thank you. host: you cannot get rid of it overnight. you may be able to tweak the margins, increase the age of distributions or change the