scheduling for c-span's tv network and c-span radio, plus a variety of compelling podcasts. c-span now is available on the app store and google play. c-span now -- or front row seat to washington anytime, anywhere. >> coming up live today on c-span, at 10: 30 eastern, a conversation about arms-control and reducing nutrient -- nuclear threat. then, commentator rachel maddow about challenges facing the u.s.. president biden addresses the country following the passage of the debt ceiling agreement last night in the senate. c-span -- your unfiltered view of government. >> chris flowers is back with us, editor of the national review, a must read for conservative commentary. what lessons should republicans take from the debt ceiling fight of 2023? >> the most important for

republicans was getting that initial vote to pass the measure out of the house. some people were skeptical mccarthy would be able to do it. he managed to. the white house really thought it would not be able to do something like that and they could have a clean debt ceiling down their throats. that did not happen. we got a deal that is unsatisfactory in many ways. republicans got something out of biden when biden was determined not to give them anything. some spending restraints and all sorts of gimmicks. some policy reforms. a marginal increase in work requirements for food stamps. some permitting reforms. some incentives to get congress to do its job in the future and past recreation -- reparations bills instead of some omnibus bill at the end of the year. it is good, but does it solve our fiscal problems and put us on a different trajectory fiscally? no. host: is speaker mccarthy's

speakership safer from interim challenge today than it was a week ago before this deal was announced? guest: this seems the main obstacle. he would have to go to democrats for passage. there could be a revolt based on that. there is not going to be a revolt based on that. but for the right part of the caucus, this is a strike against him, and they might try to get him taken down next time around. but so far, mccarthy has performed amazingly well as speaker, given all the votes and the drama to get there. it seems like he would be incredibly weak. instead, he has been adept. beginning as congressional leader is keeping her caucus together. this is been a secret to mitch mcconnell's success over the years.

mccarthy so far has been able to do that. there will be a major challenge going forward, but i think he has performed better than reasonably could have been expected at the beginning of the year. host: the debt ceiling has been suspended until after the next presidential election in january of 2025. host: the debt ceiling has been suspended. should republicans have fought to have this debate leading up to this election? guest: i'm not so sure, given the way these things bounce. you could end up being blamed when you think it is going to be the other guy blamed for a showdown or a stalemate. there is a risk to both sides. some of my colleagues are very exercised by the fact there is not a dollar amount on the suspension. that is something republicans wanted. technically, they have not voted to extend the deficit to any given number.

i'm not sure how much that matters one way or the other. house, you weren't going to negotiate and inevitably, it was going to be unsustainable so if that's your standard, you suffered a bed defeat. if your standard is to get through this and push it past the election with no economic turbulence, you haven't given it much. that metric makes is a success for the white house as well. host: national review. calm and you've written a lot about the 2024 election. the average of polls the latest numbers as donald trump at 53% in the republican primary and ron desantis at 22%. everybody else is in the low single digits. do you think those numbers provide an accurate picture of the state of the republican primary right now? guest: yes, if you want to beat

donald trump and be the guy above 50%. the key inflection point is the criticism of desantis maybe announcing earlier or been more aggressive pushing back against trump earlier. the key inflection point in the six months of this year -- trump would pop up above 50% but his indictment actually increased his numbers. desantis did not lose a huge amount but lost some. they are just trading voters back-and-forth. there is volatility in the national numbers. the early states make a huge difference and the desantis people are confident about iowa and will focus on iowa.

you want to see the national numbers tighten up some but the main thing is being competitive in iowa and potentially win iowa and the answer is yes. host: a euro for politico is anti-trump strategy to might actually work, ron desantis the first republican since 2016 who is playing to win. what do you mean? guest: we've heard criticisms of donald trump, quite fierce criticisms from liz cheney and other republicans who were likely to retire or lose primaries. this is the first time we have heard full frontal criticism of donald trump by someone who intends to have a future in republican politics and intends to define republican politics. the dissent is criticism of trump has been in some respects carefully crafted which is important. he's not attack him on character or january 6 or any of that.

he is pushing back forcefully, capture pushing discounter punching on issues for conservative voters. he is making the broader case that trump cannot win in trump cannot govern those of the reasons he is a poor choice and he is shown no fear whatsoever of trump and i think that's important. we didn't know that was necessarily true before he got in. host: give us an example of what you referred to in that column. ron desantis after his announcement went on the been schapiro show. [video clip] >> by moving left, this is a different guide in 2015-2016. he attacked me for opposing an amnesty bill in the congress.

he did support this, 2 million illegal aliens he wanted to amnesty and i opposed it because that's what america's first principle dictates is that you are put to amnesty and he attacked me for voting against and on that is spending bill that racked up a huge amount of debt for this country. yes, i voted against the omnibus, he signed every omnibus that was put on his desk. it's odd that he's doubling down on his position that those were instances in which his actions did not match his campaign rhetoric. i also think the difference between 2015 and 16 and now is that i is chief executive florida in his as the united states, we both responded to covid-19 in the way we did. he responded by elevating anthony fauci and turning the reins over to dr. fauci and i think to terrible consequences for the united states. i was the leader in this country in fighting back against anthony fauci. host: those statements from ron

desantis? guest: as you can see, he wants to get to trump's right to the extent he can. people forget in 2016, trumps strength -- he was supported by very conservative voters, somewhat conservative voters and you have moderates. trumps strength in 16 was the somewhat conservatives. over time, it kind of switched in trump is now strong with very conservatives and dissent this is strongest with somewhat conservatives so he needs to win the very conservative voters. these are folks who are very conservative as they call themselves but identify with trump and they voted for trump twice. they like him and they hate his critics may feel defensive of him and they liked what he did as president. you are not going to win them over by saying trump was a

terrible person and is unfit for service. you can win them over by saying trumps a lot of good stuff but he has changed. he's not the same and he didn't do a lot of the things he promised and i am the better meant to get it done. i'm not sure it will work but if you are betting on this race, you're betting on donald trump. there is no question that desantis is in the game. host: one of donald trump's defenses is that ron desantis has changed. the trump campaign released a video on the truth social account highlighting the times that ron desantis praised donald trump. [video clip] >> donald trump is done a better job of appointing judges then and a republican president in modern times, and a republican

president in modern times. donald trump wrote the art of the deal. he knows how to negotiate. he is a master negotiator. trump instinctively is tough on china. they respect a strong horse and trump is a strong horse. no one was willing to talk about that until he came on the scene and he is leading with purpose and conviction. president trump follow through on that. donald trump got a heck of a lot done. i think president trump kept his work. other presidents have promised it and they reneged on their promise. he kept his promise but he said we are going to deal with this one way or another. just think of how big a mess this president inherited from barack obama. yes, north korea, iran, isis, china on the move, rush on the move, syria in disarray, he inherited all of that. he made a remarkable turnaround in a think he deserves credit. host: does ron desantis have to

walk back each of his remarks? guest: we have heard from him a little bit on this. he said the other day he didn't want to criticize donald trump. trump is still getting criticize from the left all the time. there are a lot of things he says i liked about donald trump a lot of things i thought were but there are also things he failed on. he will emphasize those. he will make it harder for him to try to do his job. this is a pretty good hit for trump, portraying desantis on the establishment make sense for trump and minimizing his accomplishments in florida and saying the state was already on a good trajectory in it's 80 degrees and sunny at times. all that makes sense but trump is such a fierce fighter and he uses any tool at hand.

he has attacked desantis in ways that make no sense. it opens a up to a counter volley. he makes fun of the name but i don't think any of that works or helps trump. attacking him on his covid response and saying cuomo was better didn't -- then dissent does enables ron desantis. he said trump was wrong and went along with dr. fauci. i think a more focused approach would work for trump. what's work for him in the past is just attacking on paul france as hard as he can until he finds something that works. our focus in this segment is on campaign 2024. rich lowry is our guest, the editor of national review. you can join the conversation, (202) 748-8000 for republicans,

(202) 748-8001 for democrats, (202) 748-8002 for independents. we begin on the line for independents, carol in texas, go ahead. caller: good morning and thank you for c-span and thank you for taking my call. i appreciate it. i just want to make a comment about the debt ceiling first. that was how important it became . think about how important that five days became that janet yellen found on the debt ceiling fight. look at your calendar, it's june 2 and if she hadn't found the extra five days, we were going to default in the last time we get push this far toward default , our bond rating got lower. there were a lot of people behind the scenes, unelected appointees and staffers who

carried the load getting this across the finish line. as far as the republicans or the democrats and congress, everybody wants to pat themselves on the back. i don't really pat them on the back because all they did was they did their job nobody really pats me on the back at work when i go to work and do my job. that's what i'm paid to do. that's all congress did this time. they just did their job. it was people behind the scenes, look out important the extra five days was. host: we got your point, on janet yellen and the folks behind the scenes? guest: i don't know how they found the additional five days but they'd did. if they hadn't, it probably changes the timeline. a journalist has a deadline you very rarely file before your deadline. it's the same thing with

congressional negotiators and white house negotiators in a situation like this. it's important to underline that we would not have instantly defaulted if we past the deadline. other spending would have been constrained or not going out the door to do the payments we absolutely had to make. it wouldn't have been his fault. it's not as though if the deadline were midnight, minute past that, we would not have been default. host: this is danny, independent, good morning. caller: thank you and good morning. forgive me if i drop a call, if terrible phone service. i was going on the news of the week about the attorney general in texas. recently called is i think he

filed a lawsuit, maybe it was a dropbox election, maybe that's where it was? guest: you are asking whether he sued over drop boxes? caller: yeah, he was questioning the election results or something, remember that? guest: i don't know every detail but yes. caller: eric schmitt, her senator jumped right on top of that and i wondered that election questioning was part of his ouster. i will let you answer and have a good day. guest: thank you. i must confess, i have not followed it closely. i just read the headlines but there have been interesting debates between ron desantis and trump over this. where ron desantis has said you shouldn't have ballot harvesting , you don't want extensive

widespread vote by mail where people are auto mike lee sent ballot but the states have those policies and we as republicans should take advantage of them and i will ballot harvest and there was a vote they came up to him and to -- at an event. if they have those rules, i will do it and try to match the other side. they say don't vote by mail which is idiotic decision because you are limiting your pool of voters and depending on all of them showing up on one day. that just made no sense. ron desantis is calling him out on that but ron desantis is not said you are lying about the election being stolen but he has found a way to criticize his conduct during the 2020 election. host: republican, dover, new hampshire, one of the memory states.

you are on. caller: good and thanks for taking my call. i wanted to say that i really think mr. donald trump and ron desantis should team up and work together and put aside their differences. i know a lot of people that feel the same way. we think they would make a good team and i like to hear what you would say about that. host: before you go, there are seven more candidates jumping into the race next week. there is some speculation about your governor, chris sununu. would you like to see him join? caller: i thought mr. sununu did an ok job as governor. i respect the guy but he didn't do as good as i would have liked. i didn't think chris sununu

handled covid very well. i think he was very wishy-washy on covid. we are live free or die in new hampshire and i don't think he governed that we during covid. host: on a desantis/trump ticket? guest: that ticket is not going to happen. i think the caller represents a lot of republican sentiments. the poll a couple of weeks ago has one of these polls with trump ahead of dissent is to-one. the pole has first and second choices. a lot of trump voters are totally cemented and don't want to hear an -- anything negative about them but many are willing to look at ron desantis and are friendly toward him.

that doesn't mean there is any chance -- trump will do everything he can to destroy and crush ron desantis and if ron desantis beats trump, there's no way he wants to be associated with him. either -- i have heard the sentiment from other republicans. it's not realistic. host: what about chris sununu or mike pence or chris christie? what is the path for one of these candidates? guest: my attitude is let everyone get in. there are often times surprises in these races. right now it looks like a trump-desantis race but anything can change. maybe ron desantis totally fades

out. maybe tim scott or someone else surprises us and catches fire. if you don't want trump to win and i think all three the of the gentleman you mentioned, you need to get out. if you are at 2%, get out. you have a bunch of people at 2%, you could take 15% or whatever of the caucus vote and put trump over the top. that's to be avoided but it's no problem with these guys getting in and giving it a go. host: rich lowry, the editor of national review is error guest. he is also the author of several books. his most recent is the case for

nationalism that came out in 2019. taking your calls on the phone lines as usual for republicans, democrats and independents. this is gerard in greenville, south carolina, democrat. caller: good morning. joe biden did a great job. he thought for the american people and foster the soldiers that came home. it's always your republicans that knock everything that man does. leave that man alone and let him do his job as a president. i hope we have him for four mo

-- i hope key -- he lives to be 100. but i do not know whether he

will be the nominee. democrats will be on the edge until november 2024, because something terrible could happen at any moment. it could happen to any a us at any moment. particularly at that age. i'm not saying this to be mean-spirited. i don't want anything bad to be happen -- anything bad to happen to him. it would be bad for him, bad for his family, bad for the country, but i think the reality is in front of us. host: if whatever reason, joe is not the candidate in 2024, from your perspective, who is the next democrat that republicans should be most worried about? guest: that is a good question. they should not be particularly worried about kamala harris. i think she lacks the political touch. gavin newsom i think looks like a president. he is charismatic. he is obviously hugely ambitious . the problem is he is associated

with a kind of cultural radicalism that is not radical out in california, that i think would be hard to sell in a general election. i think the democrat to be most worried about is a kind of generic democrat senator who is relatively moderate compared to the rest of the party, who would not be a lightning rod him or herself. and could serve as a kind of default candidate, the way joe biden did against donald trump, assuming donald trump is the nominee. but desantis -- there is an argument about the republican nomination battle. i think he would have a pretty easy time beating joe biden. i don't think he would win by 10 points. we are an evenly divided country. i think the generational contrast alone would be really hard for biden to get over. biden lines up perfectly against trump. that does not mean he is going

to beat trump. i'm not in the camp that says donald trump cannot win, but he would be the riskiest choice for republicans to make. host: was ron desantis's twitter launch a good idea? guest: no. no. they want to do something different, and that is good. often successful presidential candidates write their own rulebooks and do it in different ways. it's true of barack obama, true of donald trump in 2016. but when part of the rap against you is that your campaign has already ignored conventional wisdom and that you are kind of a stiff, do a huge rally in some picturesque place, miami, 5000 people waving american flags. be on stage with your beautiful wife and adorable children. get that picture everywhere, right? you would cover it. every network on tv would cover it. it would be front page of every newspaper.

and then after holding my wife's hand and getting this picture in the news, go backstage immediately to talk to elon musk. there would be a lot of interest in that, because there is a lot of interest in elon musk. but i think just doing twitter alone was too clever by half and it is a missed opportunity. host: this is teresa, a republican from florida. caller: good morning. it is a pleasure to speak to both of you. it is on my bucket list. i love "the national review." i grew up with it on my parent'' coffee table. it kind of turned my right side a little bit further right. anyhow. it is a real pleasure. it is an interesting race.