god protect our troops. thank you. announcer: congress returns this week for busine a votes. the house gavels backn nday at noon eastern. lawmakers consider several bills later in the week to blockhe biden administration's regulations on gas stoves. the house will also vote on legislation to increase coressional oversight of the feral rulemaking process by encies. the senate is back in session tuesday at 3 p.m. eastern. senators will continue work on more of presiden ben's executive and judicial nominations. including the aclu voting director dale ho to be a district court judge f southern new york. watch live coverage of the house on c-span, the senate on c-sp2, and a reminder you can tcall of our congressional coverage with our free video app, c-spanowor online at c-span.org. rich lowry is back with us

. viewers know him as the editor of the national review. what lessons should republicans take from the debt ceiling debate this year? guest: it's important for republicans to get that initial vote and pass the bill out of the house. they didn't think mccarthy could do it any did it. the white house really thought they wouldn't be able to do something like that and they could jim a clean debt ceiling down their throat and that didn't happen. the deal is unsatisfactory in many ways but republicans got something out of joe biden when he was determined not to give them anything. all sorts of gimmicks will be involved in some policy reforms, marginal increase in work requirements on food stamps and permitting reforms and some incentives to get congress to do his job in the future and pass appropriations bills rather than the enormous omnibus bill at the

end of the year. all that is good but does this solve our fiscal problems? no. host: is the speakership safe from internal challenge? guest: this is the main obstacle to him. he would have to go to democrats to pass this which he did. they thought there would be revolt based on that but there won't be. based on the right part of the caucus, this is a strike against them and it makes it more likely they might try to get him taken down next time around but so far, mccarthy has performed amazingly well as speaker given all the votes in the drama it took him to get there, it seems he would be incredibly weak.

he was incredibly daft and the beginning of wisdom is keeping her caucus together. this is the secret to mitch mcconnell success over the year and mccarthy so far has been able to do that. the fallout from this will be a major challenge going forward. i think he has performed better than reasonably could have been suspected. host: the debt ceiling has been suspended until after the next presidential election in january of 2025. should republicans have fought harder to have this debate again during the 2024 election leading up to the election? guest: i'm not so sure. given the way these things balance, you can end up being blamed when you think the other guy won't be blamed. it's a risk to both sides. some of my colleagues suspect there is not a dollar amount on

the extension. apparently, that something republicans wanted because technically they haven't voted to extend the debt limit to any given number. i'm not sure how much that matters one way or another. if you are the white house, you weren't going to negotiate and inevitably, it was going to be unsustainable so if that's your standard, you suffered a bed defeat. if your standard is to get through this and push it past the election with no economic turbulence, you haven't given it much. that metric makes is a success for the white house as well. host: national review. calm and you've written a lot about the 2024 election. the average of polls the latest numbers as donald trump at 53%

in the republican primary and ron desantis at 22%. everybody else is in the low single digits. do you think those numbers provide an accurate picture of the state of the republican primary right now? guest: yes, if you want to beat donald trump and be the guy above 50%. the key inflection point is the criticism of desantis maybe announcing earlier or been more aggressive pushing back against trump earlier. the key inflection point in the six months of this year -- trump would pop up above 50% but his indictment actually increased his numbers. desantis did not lose a huge amount but lost some.

they are just trading voters back-and-forth. there is volatility in the national numbers. the early states make a huge difference and the desantis people are confident about iowa and will focus on iowa. you want to see the national numbers tighten up some but the main thing is being competitive in iowa and potentially win iowa and the answer is yes. host: a euro for politico is anti-trump strategy to might actually work, ron desantis the first republican since 2016 who is playing to win. what do you mean? guest: we've heard criticisms of donald trump, quite fierce criticisms from liz cheney and other republicans who were likely to retire or lose primaries. this is the first time we have heard full frontal criticism of donald trump by someone who intends to have a future in republican politics and intends

to define republican politics. the dissent is criticism of trump has been in some respects carefully crafted which is important. he's not attack him on character or january 6 or any of that. he is pushing back forcefully, capture pushing discounter punching on issues for conservative voters. he is making the broader case that trump cannot win in trump cannot govern those of the reasons he is a poor choice and he is shown no fear whatsoever of trump and i think that's important. we didn't know that was necessarily true before he got in. host: give us an example of what you referred to in that column. ron desantis after his announcement went on the been schapiro show. [video clip]

>> by moving left, this is a different guide in 2015-2016. he attacked me for opposing an amnesty bill in the congress. he did support this, 2 million illegal aliens he wanted to amnesty and i opposed it because that's what america's first principle dictates is that you are put to amnesty and he attacked me for voting against and on that is spending bill that racked up a huge amount of debt for this country. yes, i voted against the omnibus, he signed every omnibus that was put on his desk. it's odd that he's doubling down on his position that those were instances in which his actions did not match his campaign rhetoric. i also think the difference between 2015 and 16 and now is that i is chief executive florida in his as the united states, we both responded to covid-19 in the way we did. he responded by elevating

anthony fauci and turning the reins over to dr. fauci and i think to terrible consequences for the united states. i was the leader in this country in fighting back against anthony fauci. host: those statements from ron desantis? guest: as you can see, he wants to get to trump's right to the extent he can. people forget in 2016, trumps strength -- he was supported by very conservative voters, somewhat conservative voters and you have moderates. trumps strength in 16 was the somewhat conservatives. over time, it kind of switched in trump is now strong with very conservatives and dissent this is strongest with somewhat conservatives so he needs to win the very conservative voters. these are folks who are very conservative as they call

themselves but identify with trump and they voted for trump twice. they like him and they hate his critics may feel defensive of him and they liked what he did as president. you are not going to win them over by saying trump was a terrible person and is unfit for service. you can win them over by saying trumps a lot of good stuff but he has changed. he's not the same and he didn't do a lot of the things he promised and i am the better meant to get it done. i'm not sure it will work but if you are betting on this race, you're betting on donald trump. there is no question that desantis is in the game. host: one of donald trump's defenses is that ron desantis has changed. the trump campaign released a video on the truth social account highlighting the times

that ron desantis praised donald trump. [video clip] >> donald trump is done a better job of appointing judges then and a republican president in modern times, and a republican president in modern times. donald trump wrote the art of the deal. he knows how to negotiate. he is a master negotiator. trump instinctively is tough on china. they respect a strong horse and trump is a strong horse. no one was willing to talk about that until he came on the scene and he is leading with purpose and conviction. president trump follow through on that. donald trump got a heck of a lot done. i think president trump kept his work. other presidents have promised it and they reneged on their promise. he kept his promise but he said we are going to deal with this one way or another. just think of how big a mess this president inherited from barack obama. yes, north korea, iran, isis,

china on the move, rush on the move, syria in disarray, he inherited all of that. he made a remarkable turnaround in a think he deserves credit. host: does ron desantis have to walk back each of his remarks? guest: we have heard from him a little bit on this. he said the other day he didn't want to criticize donald trump. trump is still getting criticize from the left all the time. there are a lot of things he says i liked about donald trump a lot of things i thought were but there are also things he failed on. he will emphasize those. he will make it harder for him to try to do his job. this is a pretty good hit for trump, portraying desantis on the establishment make sense for trump and minimizing his

accomplishments in florida and saying the state was already on a good trajectory in it's 80 degrees and sunny at times. all that makes sense but trump is such a fierce fighter and he uses any tool at hand. he has attacked desantis in ways that make no sense. it opens a up to a counter volley. he makes fun of the name but i don't think any of that works or helps trump. attacking him on his covid response and saying cuomo was better didn't -- then dissent does enables ron desantis. he said trump was wrong and went along with dr. fauci. i think a more focused approach would work for trump. what's work for him in the past is just attacking on paul france as hard as he can until he finds something that works.

our focus in this segment is on campaign 2024. rich lowry is our guest, the editor of national review. you can join the conversation, (202) 748-8000 for republicans, (202) 748-8001 for democrats, (202) 748-8002 for independents. we begin on the line for independents, carol in texas, go ahead. caller: good morning and thank you for c-span and thank you for taking my call. i appreciate it. i just want to make a comment about the debt ceiling first. that was how important it became . think about how important that five days became that janet yellen found on the debt ceiling fight. look at your calendar, it's june 2 and if she hadn't found the extra five days, we were going

to default in the last time we get push this far toward default , our bond rating got lower. there were a lot of people behind the scenes, unelected appointees and staffers who carried the load getting this across the finish line. as far as the republicans or the democrats and congress, everybody wants to pat themselves on the back. i don't really pat them on the back because all they did was they did their job nobody really pats me on the back at work when i go to work and do my job. that's what i'm paid to do. that's all congress did this time. they just did their job. it was people behind the scenes, look out important the extra five days was. host: we got your point, on janet yellen and the folks behind the scenes? guest: i don't know how they found the additional five days but they'd did.

if they hadn't, it probably changes the timeline. a journalist has a deadline you very rarely file before your deadline. it's the same thing with congressional negotiators and white house negotiators in a situation like this. it's important to underline that we would not have instantly defaulted if we past the deadline. other spending would have been constrained or not going out the door to do the payments we absolutely had to make. it wouldn't have been his fault. it's not as though if the deadline were midnight, minute past that, we would not have been default. host: this is danny, independent, good morning. caller: thank you and good morning. forgive me if i drop a call, if terrible phone service.

i was going on the news of the week about the attorney general in texas. recently called is i think he filed a lawsuit, maybe it was a dropbox election, maybe that's where it was? guest: you are asking whether he sued over drop boxes? caller: yeah, he was questioning the election results or something, remember that? guest: i don't know every detail but yes. caller: eric schmitt, her senator jumped right on top of that and i wondered that election questioning was part of his ouster. i will let you answer and have a good day. guest: thank you. i must confess, i have not followed it closely.

i just read the headlines but there have been interesting debates between ron desantis and trump over this. where ron desantis has said you shouldn't have ballot harvesting , you don't want extensive widespread vote by mail where people are auto mike lee sent ballot but the states have those policies and we as republicans should take advantage of them and i will ballot harvest and there was a vote they came up to him and to -- at an event. if they have those rules, i will do it and try to match the other side. they say don't vote by mail which is idiotic decision because you are limiting your pool of voters and depending on all of them showing up on one day. that just made no sense. ron desantis is calling him out on that but ron desantis is not

said you are lying about the election being stolen but he has found a way to criticize his conduct during the 2020 election. host: republican, dover, new hampshire, one of the memory states. you are on. caller: good and thanks for taking my call. i wanted to say that i really think mr. donald trump and ron desantis should team up and work together and put aside their differences. i know a lot of people that feel the same way. we think they would make a good team and i like to hear what you would say about that. host: before you go, there are seven more candidates jumping into the race next week. there is some speculation about your governor, chris sununu. would you like to see him join? caller: i thought mr. sununu did

an ok job as governor. i respect the guy but he didn't do as good as i would have liked. i didn't think chris sununu handled covid very well. i think he was very wishy-washy on covid. we are live free or die in new hampshire and i don't think he governed that we during covid. host: on a desantis/trump ticket? guest: that ticket is not going to happen. i think the caller represents a lot of republican sentiments. the poll a couple of weeks ago has one of these polls with trump ahead of dissent is to-one. the pole has first and second choices.

a lot of trump voters are totally cemented and don't want to hear an -- anything negative about them but many are willing to look at ron desantis and are friendly toward him. that doesn't mean there is any chance -- trump will do everything he can to destroy and crush ron desantis and if ron desantis beats trump, there's no way he wants to be associated with him. either -- i have heard the sentiment from other republicans. it's not realistic. host: what about chris sununu or mike pence or chris christie? what is the path for one of these candidates? guest: my attitude is let everyone get in.

there are often times surprises in these races. right now it looks like a trump-desantis race but anything can change. maybe ron desantis totally fades out. maybe tim scott or someone else surprises us and catches fire. if you don't want trump to win and i think all three the of the gentleman you mentioned, you need to get out. if you are at 2%, get out. you have a bunch of people at 2%, you could take 15% or whatever of the caucus vote and put trump over the top. that's to be avoided but it's no

problem with these guys getting in and giving it a go. host: rich lowry, the editor of national review is error guest. he is also the author of several books. his most recent is the case for nationalism that came out in 2019. taking your calls on the phone lines as usual for republicans, democrats and independents. this is gerard in greenville, south carolina, democrat. caller: good morning. joe biden did a great job. he thought for the american people and foster the soldiers that came home. it's always your republicans that knock everything that man does. leave that man alone and let him do his job as a president. i hope we have him for four more years. thank you, have a good day.

guest: i think it was significant yesterday. his fault that he had at the air force academy graduation ceremony. we can all fall but he has a gate now - gait that's shuffling. it looks familiar if you have an elderly person in decline. you hold your breath every time he or she walks across the room. i wonder how sustainable this is for him as president of the united states. i hope he lives to be 100 and is completely robust. my concerns are shared by a lot of voters. i wonder whether he will be the candidate in 2024 and whether something will happen that will make democrats realize this is

not sustainable. the idea that he will be president of the united states until 2029 strikes me as preposterous. biden is -- if biden is the nominee, democrats will be teetering on the edge. something terrible could happen at any moment and it could happen to any of us at any moment but particularly at that age and what seems to be his state. i'm not saying it to be mean-spirited, i don't want anything bad to happen to him. the reality is in front of us. host: if joe biden is not the candidate in 2024, from your perspective, who is the next democrat that republicans should be most worried about? guest: that's a good question. they shouldn't be worried about

kamala harris. i think she lacks the political touch. gavin newsom i think looks like a president and he is charismatic. he is usually ambitious but the problem is he's associated with a cultural radicalism in california that will be hard to sell in a general election. the democrat for folks to be most worried about is the generic democrat, the senator is relatively moderate compared to the rest of the party who wouldn't be a lightning rod and could serve as the default candidate away joe biden did against donald trump, assuming donald trump is the nominee. there is an argument about the republican nomination. i think ron desantis has an -- i think trump is an easy way of

getting joe biden out for the generational contras alone would be hard for joe biden to get over. biden is lined up perfectly against trump doesn't mean he will beat him. i think donald trump can win but he would be the riskiest choice for republicans to make. host: was the ron desantis launch on twitter a good idea? guest:no, it wasn't. if they want to be doing something different, that's good. successful presidential candidates write their own rules and do it a new way. it's true barack obama and donald trump. part of the wrap of against you is that your campaign is already have dead which was the conventional wisdom is of a couple of weeks ago and you are a stiff, there was -- do a huge rally in a picture race place like miami or wherever and have

5000 people waving american flags and be on the state with your beautiful wife and adorable children and get that picture everywhere. every network on tv will cover it and it will be the front page of every newspaper. then you go backstage immediately to talk to elon musk. you get the best of both worlds. doing the twitter thing alone was too clever, a missed opportunity. host: to florida, this is teresa, republican, good morning. caller: good morning, it's a pleasure to speak to both of you especially on my bucket list. i love the national review and grew up with it on the table of my parents coffee table.

it actually turned my right side a little further right. guest: thank you. caller: it's a real pleasure. i have to say, i am an optimist and i'm hoping for the best for the country. i think this business of all these people at 1%, they need to get out fast. the republicans sometimes are like herding cats. they need to get unified start making some decisions. political science is tricky you've got to be on top of it. i think ron desantis is the main thing and i would like to keep him here. win or lose it's our win. if i ever have a hurricane, i want ron desantis at the leadership post.

i've been through many of them minutes been a nightmare. when he came in coming knows how to lead and get things done, we love him. guest: he's been an ideological warrior in florida and that's top of mind for a lot of republican voters. all that he's also been a good, confident -- competent governor. he follows through and gets things done so that would be another one of his calling cards in the presidential race. host: the caller was talking about growing up with national review. she may not know that you were appointed by william buckley himself back in 1997. what do you think william f buckley with think of today's republican party? guest: that's a great question. i think about that a lot. it's impossible to answer.

he had well stated and well known foundational principles. he was idiosyncratic and very practical. i think he would take ron desantis as an example of the new republicanism we are seeing 80 or 90% of people are comfortably in the ballpark of traditional conservatism and he's been using government as a tool in the culture war but in most respects, totally appropriately. some will have to decide what the rules are and what they teach like school boards and localities state government. that's totally appropriate. the cases disney, a private company. he retaliated against them for something he said would not

good. as he points out, they have been getting in norma's government favor. -- getting in norma's government favor. -- an enormous. i think bill would be on board with a lot of but he would not like the disney controversy. host: we already so tweet from randy, this is? in bakersfield, california, independent. caller: thank. i may disagree with most of what you say but i defend your to save my last.

i want to ask you about an article in the hill. it dealt with the rule that was necessary in order to get this bill to the resolute desk. do you think the freedom caucus will try to vacate the seat because speaker mccarthy cut a deal with minority leader jeffries to get the 52 democratic votes? do you have any insight as to what jeffries was promised from mccarthy in order to get the rule on it? that's really unusual. usually the rule is passed by the majority party. i know what william f buckley would say about the republican party now. m he would treat theaga wing the same way he treated the john birch society.

i invite you to do the same. thank you for your contribution. guest: thanks for the call. i would say vacate the chair, no, but to strike against mccarthy. when you are having trouble passing a rule, that's a problem. that's a side of major turbulence in your caucus. i don't know what, if anything, was promised to jeffries. you had to be careful with the maga wing. there are conspiracy theories on the friends that we have been harsh about and have continued to do so. the maggot wing includes a lot of conservatives who are mistaken about donald trump or particular issues. they have the right intentions and they are sincere and believe

80% of what i believe. i am not denouncing those people. host: a few minutes left with rich lowry this morning, being the first friday of the month, it's a day when the jobs numbers come out from the bureau of labor statistics. we want to get your quick reacti to the jobs numbers. total nonfarm payroll increased in the month of may and the unemployment rate rose by three percentage points. your reaction? guest: i'm not an economics guy 's on probably the worst person to talk about jobs. it seems like an ok report. people i know and trust and who know more about this than i do do think there is likely a recession coming in the next year. you have not seen it in the jobs numbers -- in the jobs numbers

and that might be a lagging indicator that there is a recession ahead of us. two things i think are dragging -- three things i think are dragging biden down which is the sense that he's incompetent. the fact that inflation, real wages have been declining for quite some time now is very hard for a president to survive. and there are doubts about his infirmities and his ability to carry out the job going forward. . host: a couple of more calls with rich lowry, vicky in austin, texas, democrat, good morning. caller: i have a, and a question. i am sick and tired of republicans calling stumbles over sandbags that are in people's way or stiff gauge. his infirmities? it's ridiculous. i judge biden on his judgment

and his decision-making and his policies, not whether or not he has the agility of a 20-year-old. i tripped going up the stairs when i was 20 years old and i went on to graduate phi beta kappa and i am mensa. it has nothing to do with your cognitive ability. host: what is your question? caller: i am a retired nurse and psychologist and i have no problems with joe biden's cognition. did marjorie greene work out a deal with mccarthy that she would vote yes on the debt ceiling in exchange for his releasing more of the january 6 footage to selective conservative outlets guest:? thank you. guest:i have no idea. host: fair enough, this is tina in florida, good morning. caller: good morning. since biden has been in office,

i got a nice raise and social security and i appreciate the extra money. the unemployment rate is very low and the fact that ron desantis won the election was because the democrats didn't get out and vote. the 49% of the democrats did not get off of the couch and vote and that is why ron desantis won by a landslide. he is worse than trump. he is a dictator and a bigot and will hurt the country if you gets into office. i can't believe you think good of him when he picks a battle with everyone around him. guest: this is an argument against ron desantis that you hear about from the left that he's worse than trump and a dictator. i think it makes zero cents. the problems with trump are related to character, his character failings directly led

to him calling and question the 2020 election because it was a matter of ego, he couldn't admit that he lost. there is no indication that ron desantis shares those same character flaws. even though his substance is slightly different than a traditional republican, his approach is very conventional. he doesn't engage in name-calling like we've seen with trump. dictatorship is honestly ridiculous. he won election in florida because people like just liked what he did the first four years. there is nothing to indicate he is authoritarian or can overturn our elections or anything like that. that is a feverish fantasy. host: last call with rich lowry, david out of san francisco, independent. caller: good morning, i've got an answer that rich missed.

he was asked a little while back about the texas attorney general impeachment. the quick answer of course is texas was trying, he was trying to sucker texas into paying for his mistress. it's identical to what happened with stormy daniels, that american taxpayers got stuck paying for trump's mistress. the attorney general's impeachment in texas is about a mistress being stuck onto the payroll or the taxpayers role. i was more interested in whether or not his publishing house believes in the social contract. we've got people like crow buying the supreme court justices. the idea that the social contract says we the people get to decide our fates rather than some pretender to a throne who

is rich only by stolen money. where does his publishing house stand on the issue of the social contract? host: why not you chat about the national review in your final minute or so. guest: they didn't try to buy clarence thomas. he is a friend of clarence and clarence thomas is literally incorruptible and there's zero evidence he's been inconsistent. if there is a criticism of him, he's consistent to a fault. that line of argument is part of a campaign to deal with the court. the president could effectively

destroy the court by packing it so that some not an argument i would make of them talking about the social contract. packing the court would be a huge violation of our system or the norms we have come to expect over decades and decades now. host: rich lowry is editor at national review, national review.com to see their work. you can find them at rich lowry. we appreciate your time on "washington journal announcer: saturday republican president to get its nikki haley, mike pence, south carolina senator jim scott larry elder speak at the 2023 host -- r fundraiser. e coverage begins at 8:30 p.m. eastern on c-span, our free mobile video at, or online at

c-span.org. announcer: c-span camping 2024 coverage is your front row seat to the presidential elections. watch our coverage of the candidates on the campaign trail with announcements, meet and greets, speeches, and events. to make up your own mind. campaign 2024, on the c-span network. c-span now, our free mobile video app or anytime online at c-span.org. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. ♪ announcer: sunday night on q & a, in his book washington state democratic congressman adam smith details his decades long struggle living with chronic pain and anxiety and his efforts to find the right treatment. he talked about the u.s. health care system and its ability to meet the needs of americans with

physical and mental health issues. >> the problem with the anxiety and pain hits is our document, i had no idea what to do. for the most part when i was trying to accomplish something in life i felt like i cannot do it. very self pitying, but then i would be like, ok, what are you going to do? go to work. i wrote a list in my little yellow notepad. what am i going to do? i could walk out the door and go knock on doors. i could do something. here, what can i do? i have this feeling of unbelievable anxiety, i cannot sleep, i can barely eat, i am in pain and trying to exercise, but i cannot. announcer: adam smith with his book " lost and broken." listen to q&a and all of our podcasts on our free c-span now

app. announcer: c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are fund these television companies and more, including charter communications. >> charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers, and we are just getting started, moving 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. announcer: charter communications supports c-span as a public service along with these other television providers , giving you a front row seat to democracy. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023] announcer: now on book tv's author interview program "after words" minnesota attorney general keith ellison offers his thoughts on how to stop the cycle of police violence. he is interviewed by cnn chief legal analyst laura coates. "after words" is a