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continues. host: we are now joined by the editor-in-chief of cq roll call, jason dick. let's start with the debt ceiling negotiation. we avoided default. we did not have catastrophe. but is this house divided government going to work now? are we going to be lurching from crisis to crisis? guest: probably. not to be pessimistic about it. i prefer to think of it more as realistic. several of my colleagues describe me as the "debt doomer" in recent months. i do not see how they were going to get past their biggest differences in opinions. these are folks who have very strong views on spending and policy issues. the fact that they did get it, i

think, is almost a best case scenario for what could have gone wrong. congress always responds to deadlines. in this case, they did respond. i give them credit for actually getting a deal, for sitting down, for negotiating. there are a lot of unhappy people in washington right now, particularly senate republicans, and some folks on the extreme wings of both parties. i think what we are going to see is that for all of the good feelings we have now, not nervously checking with the markets are about to do and wondering what comes next, it is probably going to be some form of last-minute negotiation over deadlines over and over again for as long as we have this kind of government. host: what's tricky about that whole process and the votes in both the house and senate? guest: i was struck that it was so bipartisan, particularly in the house. in the senate, things tend to

get rolling one thing realize their backs are against the wall. i did not expect anywhere near 300 plus votes in the house. it was truly a moment that took me by surprise, which does not happen that much. washington has a sort of theater to it, if you will. i think it was going to be a lot closer. it was very striking to me. it's also very striking that it came together so quickly. the president, again, said, "i will not negotiate about the debt limit." then, we got these warnings from janet yellen, the treasury secretary. we are going to have to do this. the president cut his trip to asia short so he could come back and engage directly, or at least his team more directly, with kevin mccarthy and his team. it came together quickly enough, even though we got these little alerts. in time you thought you could relax a little bit, that they are back at the table, back in a

conference room. we would get these notes that someone would walk out in a huff. it was sort of this "the wedding is off" mentality. then, they would get back together 12, 14, 24 hours later. i think that is a testament to the people who the president, kevin mccarthy, and the speaker chose. these are serious people. they obviously have their own political views, but everyone seemed motivated to get this done. that was striking. we may be lurching from crisis to crisis, because congress responds most acutely to deadlines, not thinking too far in the future. but if people can engage in this manner, intelligently and articulately, and everyone gives a little and gets a little, that is somewhat of a positive, i think. host: i will remind our viewers that if you would like to ask questions or make a comment for

our guest, the editor-in-chief of cq roll call, you can do that by party affiliation. republicans can call (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000, and independents (202) 748-8002. still talking about speaker mccarthy, do you think he emerged from this stronger, weaker? where is the freedom caucus on possibly challenging his leadership? guest: i will answer the last part of your question first. part of the negotiations for kevin mccarthy to get the votes to become speaker involved him allowing a challenge. it is called a privileged resolution it is technical, bullet basically comes down to is that you have to hold this boat and anyone can file for it. if there are enough people that don't like you, and he only has a handful of votes to spare in the majority, he could be removed as speaker, even though

the chair would be vacated. that could happen at any time. that is not to be underestimated. there is this thing hanging over him, this cloud, if you will. but then the question becomes as well, who will take his place? this kidding -- this could create an incredibly chaotic situation. it's not clear. let's say the freedom caucus says, we are going to do this. we are going to raise this motion to vacate the chair and dumped kevin mccarthy. well, who is next? it's not like any of them will get the votes, particularly from kevin mccarthy's leadership team, at least not immediately. it sounds very ominous, but it is also not clear because it is a vote of the whole house. it does not take much for anybody to make mischief, but if they are not careful, they end up with multiple rounds of voting and it isn't clear how it turns out.

at least for the immediate future, that would be a move that would be very extreme. that does not mean that the most conservative members are not extremely upset about how these negotiations went. we have seen the footage of the house triangle, chip roy and so forth, very upset, saying this amounted basically to a betrayal of what they had fought for when they got their initial bill out of the house in april. it is ominous, but it's not clear what will come back. i think that fear keeps everybody a little bit in check. mutually assured instruction, if you will, at a political level. so, back to whether he came out stronger, weaker, or the same. i would argue he is come out of it stronger. i don't think anybody thought in april that he could get a bill through the chamber with just his caucus. there were too many variables. but he got a lot of moderates to

vote for a very conservative bill. he held his caucus together. he unified democratic opposition. and then, to negotiate this with the president, get it through the senate, avert the default, coming together like it did with that kind of bipartisan vote, i think that speaks to a surprise. if everybody focuses on the freedom caucus, because they are very good at getting their message out and they have very strongly held beliefs, but there are also a lot of people in the middle of the republican caucus. some voted for joe biden. you could make an argument that the majority for the republicans really does run through california and new york, particularly in the last midterm election. those are folks who are not as loud, if you will, or present in social media or on tape -- on cable television.

sometimes, it is hard to get jazzed about being a moderate. we are holding spending to 1%. that does not kick up the fundraising. but these are the folks who know feel empowered, i think. they saw this was the way divided government works, to your initial question at the top of the hour. everybody has to give something to get something. that is a pretty big block of people that i think now have mccarthy's back. host: let's talk about jeffries comments democratic leader, the house minority leader. he produced a lot of democratic votes in the house for that bill. how does he emerge? is he stronger, weaker, and how is he dealing with the more progressive side of his party that was against this deal? guest: that's a good question. i think jeffries seems to have a pretty good relationship with mccarthy. they seem warmer around each other personally, which has not

always been the case with minority and majority leadership. he seems to have held his conference together. the number of democrats who did support it was also a surprise to me. the congressional progressive caucus is extremely upset about the cuts and the caps, and also the attention to defense programs that was necessary to get a lot of republicans on board. certainly, they had their counterparts in the senate as well, with people like bernie sanders. but it does not seem like jeffries is in any danger. he still has what seems to be a very quiet, but firm support from the former speaker, nancy pelosi. there was a warm moment between them on the floor during the vote. it doesn't seem like jeffries is going anywhere and he has a lot of rope. he was not engaged in the negotiations, neither was mitch

mcconnell, the minority leader in the senate. being minority leader, and some ways, is a likely easier task because you don't have control over the agenda, just how you approach opposition. it seems like jeffries negotiated this as well as he could. probably status quo on that, maybe a little more, because he got so many folks and it showed as bipartisan. i think that is something that really matters to the president, particularly as he gives of his reelection bid. he can say, my bipartisanship works. it kind of cues in with all of the messaging that the presidential reelection campaign will be forwarding. host: now that the drama of the debt ceiling over, we have september 30. the house is out all of august. so, what is going to happen? this is a headline i want to show from "new york magazine."

"did we just trade a debt default with a government shutdown?" guest: i don't think so. washington tends to get in gear toward the very end. i would not expect that we are going to start worrying about government shutdowns until september. then, things will come together quickly either on a resolution or short-term funding bill. part of this debt limit deal, if they don't sign the appropriations bill into law, there is a 1% cut that would kick in for all programs, which is a real motivator for everything, for defense and nondefense spending. that tends to focus the mind a little bit. i was talking about this with my wife in december. it seems like december is already gone, when you start claiming that kids are going back to school and we are going to visit friends. it's kind of like that with

congress. i would suspect that in the time we have been talking, the house and senate are going to start scheduling their markups at the committee level for appropriations bills. they put all of those on hold because of the debt limit drama. they did not want to mark something up that will be overtaken by other policies that were set in the debt limit deal. we have got a few weeks to go before the independence day recess. we will see a flurry of activity at the committee level. the appropriations people, especially the committee leaders, are going to be very motivated to try to get their stamp on the appropriations process. so, you never rule out congress making things difficult on themselves. but there are several motivating factors that were not there in previous years. it is tempting to say september 30 is right around the corner, but they do have a little bit

through summer and august. host: they have plenty of time. [laughter] guest: they tend to stay a few extra days, especially if they have got something. host: speaking of history, i want to go back to 1996. explain what happened in that year, because that was the last time congress actually completed all 12 appropriation bills. what happened that year and what was special? guest: so, divided government for one. [laughter] we had president clinton. he was in his own reelection bid. the republicans controlled both the house and senate. despite the way i think a lot of people view the 1990's, there was this time of extreme partisanship, and i'm not saying there was not. but after the initial government shutdown of the early parts of that first congress that took office in 1990 five, which was the 1994 elections, the speaker

and president clinton figured out a way to work together. they figured out a way to do welfare. they got trains running back on time. this actually produced a status quo election in 1996. the president was reelected and the republicans maintain their majorities in both chambers. host: let's talk to our collars now. james is first in ohio. independent. hi, james. caller: hello. i think it is just ridiculous that our government really expects to get a pat on the back for doing anything these past months. they created this whole catastrophe, they had all the american people nervous and worried about things that they created. we have to do a better job at picking our leaders, the ones we currently have are greedy and lazy. we have got to do a better job. they are not representing even

their constituents. they are representing their party and that is the only thing they are interested in, period. thank you. guest: the caller has a point particularly about the debt limit, as has been pointed out by several people. we are one of the few countries who has a debt limit where we continue to approach this catastrophic default periodically. it doesn't ever seem to be an issue when there is not divided government. actually, it wasn't even much of an issue when democrats control the house over -- under donald trump. they raised it without this kind of stuff we have seen the last few months. but one of the things that i think a lot of countries just wonder, what is this and why do you guys have this? certainly, the president was mulling. it does not sound like it got to a really serious level, of invoking the 14th amend that,

which says the full faith and credit in the united states will not be called into question. that seems to be fairly straightforward language in the constitution. but the effect it would have had on the markets and so forth is not something they would have wanted to try out at this point, especially if they got a deal. with a little bit of time to spare -- but other countries, i think the president's meeting with the prime minister's of denmark and the united kingdom, i would just love to be a fly on the wall and hear those conversations. i can't help but think that these leaders from other countries are like, what is this debt limit thing and why do you have this? you are the largest economy in the road, you have the dollar and the currency of the world. this is what everything on the planet runs on financially. host: following that, bobby is asking you on twitter, did you get white house republicans

could not allow a clean debt ceiling bill? explain it to us. guest: as far as what republicans have been able to do in this round of negotiation and in previous rounds, they feel that this is a way that they can get their own policy preferences in a time of divided government. they know that democrats will engage with them eventually on it. no one is willing to choose a hostage, to use a blunt metaphor. this is the way they can get policy changes that would not normally make their way through the normal process of passing the house, the senate, signed into law by the president. it is just something that you cannot get through with normal processes. this is the way that they do it. host: let's talk to stephen next in georgia, republican. caller: hello.

host: