continues. host: a timely discussion on the law that governs the handling of presidential records. lee white is our guest. before we get to the presidential records act of 1978, explain about the coalition and your group's mission. guest: the coalition is a nonprofit, nonpartisan consortium of about 42 different organizations. we represent not just historians but political scientists, k-12 history and social studies teachers, a range of different

groups. we advocate on the hill for funding for history related agencies or programs like the national archives, park services, history programs, things like that. we are also heavily involved in records access issues since we represent historians who need access to primary sources to do their work. host: it is history coalition.org if you want to check them out on the web. the presidential records act, likely hearing more about that as this document's case against the former president moves forward. where did it come from, what was happening in 1978 that we need a present to records act? guest: it was directly the result of the abuses we saw during the nixon administration. when president nixon left, he made a deal with the then --

national archives was under the general services administration. he made a deal thhem to take his tapes and everything with them and congress put a stop to it. congress realized there was a need to make sure something like this did not happen again, so they passed this law all the president records act. until that time, the records of a president were considered his personal property. he could take them with him, do whatever he wanted. in the 1930's, to give you more background, president roosevelt came up with the idea of creating a presidential library where he could leave his records and his mementos and all of the things from his administration during his second administration, he started the idea. so that future historians and people could learn about the work he had done.

that precedent was set and each, subsequent president decided i would like to do that to. congress passed the libraries act in 1955, setting parameters for subsequent presidents to do that. every president since then has created a presidential library except for president obama has decided not to, he was going to create presidential centers so the records will revert back to --normally the records go to a repository at the presidents library. i am sorry, acronyms. the national archives and records administration. host: that is the independent agency. when we talk about a presidential record under the presidential records act, what qualifies as a presidential record? guest: anything created related to the business of the presidency. it covers the white house, the president, the white house staff, all of the sub agencies

that are within the immediate purview of the white house. any business or transactions or documents related to the actual business of the government are presidential records, it is all encompassing. host: how big of a change was this in 1978 that the records a president makes that he jots down are no longer his, that they are the property of the united states? guest: while the president is in office, the president has the authority to do somewhat what they would like to do with records. they can -- former president trump has said rightly you can declassify documents while you are president. you can destroy records if you want to, but you have to get to the vice of the archivist, you have to notify congress. that is not done that often. they can destroy bulk male and

things like that. but, the moment the new president is inaugurated at 12:01 across the street here, the custody reverts to the federal government and the government owns those records, as well as the american people. host: because it is playing such a role in this debate over the former president records, does the president shall records act lay out a process for declassification? guest: that is covered by an executive order. executive order 15326, if anyone wants to look it up. declassification is regulated by an exec of order, not a presidential records act. host: does the president shall records act make a distinction between classified records and not classified records? guest: no. host: who decides that the president shall records act has been violated? if there is some question over whether something has not been

kept, who gets to make that decision? guest: i think in the case with the national archives, when, after president biden was inaugurated, the national archives new there were certain things that were missing like the kim jong-un letter. there were things missing. it is my understanding that when classified materials are sent to the president or the office of the president that they are tracked, they know they exist. the national archives was going through, they are unpacking and are like, wait, there are things that are supposed to be here that are not here. they noticed. they sent letters to, the president's office the former president's office and said, we've got concerns there are records we think we should have that we do not have. do you have them? if you do, could you please send them back?

they are very differential. if you see the timeline throughout the process, the archives was trying gently to prod them and they were sending emails to the white house counsel, the former white house counsel saying, could you help us out? there was not a big, in your face, we need this stuff tomorrow. they were giving them plenty of time to comply and get the records back to the archives. host: before the donald trump case, what were the previous, most high-profile cases involving the president to records at? -- act? guest: i do not think this was -- number one, there is no enforcement mechanism in the president shall records act. president trump is being prosecuted under the espionage act for having possession of records that he is not entitled to have. there is no code section in the presidential records act that

says a violation of this results in five years in jail or $20,000 fine or whatever. the only option the national archives have once they had played out the, we are not getting what we are supposed to be getting, was to report it to the department of justice and say have these records, we believe they are classified records, you need to get involved. host: had the national archives and records administration involve the justice department in any previous cases? guest: there had been a case where former clinton national security advisor sandy berger had -- i believe he was to testify before the 9/11 commission, a little hazy on my memory on it. he asked the national archives if he could go in and look at his notes and records from that time period. while he was there, he stuffed them in his coat pocket and walked out. host: former president trump

referenced saying the clinton case, while denouncing the indictment charged against him in recent days, this was an event in columbus, georgia this past weekend. i want to play this clip since we are talking past cases. [video clip] >> they do not mention the defining lawsuit that was brought against bill clinton. it was lost by the government, the famous socks case that says you can keep you -- keep these documents. they do not mention that. these are the minor details. when i left office and was moving to florida, boxes were openly sitting on the white house sidewalk. everybody was taking pictures of them. this is not somebody smuggling boxes out, pictures of them sitting with people from gsa and other people waiting to put them on a truck. they were literally sitting outside of the white house,

waiting for a truck to come. the truck come, it was there for a long time. they brought it down to florida and make it sound like it is a big event by operation, we did a poor job i will tell you. first thing you learn is, do not put them on the sidewalk in front of the white house. [laughter] >> as a former president, we were negotiating with the national archives and records administration just as every other president has done. the next thing i knew, mar-a-lago was rated by gun toting fbi agents. we were negotiating. host: that was former president trump on saturday. lee white, some of the issues he brings up including the socks case. guest: the socks case is utterly, totally irrelevant to what we have at hand. in that case, president clinton

was being interviewed by historian pulitzer prize winning tyler branch about his time in the white house. one of the exceptions in the presidential records act is that diaries, personal journals are exempt from the presidential records act. so, we are not talking -- in this case, we are talking about classified documents taken from the white house. we are not talking about an interview with a historian. we are talking about highly classified, potentially dangerous documents if they get into the wrong hands -- it is apples and oranges, it does not apply. it is sort of like, dumb in a way. host: lee white is the executive director of the national coalition, talking about the presidential records act in this

latest indictment of former president trump. if you want to join the conversation, phone lines as usual. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. this is david out of buffalo, new york. republican. good morning, you are on. caller: good morning, mr. white. how are you? guest: i'm good, how are you? caller: i am having a great morning. a lot of my conservative friends keep bringing up hillary clinton, etc., etc. trump was in office for four years. i would imagine, back in 2016 the chant when i voted for him was lock her up. i imagine he did whatever he could in his -- and his doj looked into it. why bringing that up now, how is

that helpful at all? it seems these are like apples and oranges. to the previous segment, trans rights are human rights and putin is not in control. guest: thanks for your question. a lot of it is just a flexion. -- deflection. if you do not have the law on your side, argue the facts. if you have -- if you do not have either, make a lot of noise. this is designed to distract from the issue at hand, which is he took documents from the white house that belonged to the american people. that, when the national archives tried to get them back, he stonewalled them and the only remedy left to the national archives to get those documents back was to go to the doj. the doj made the decision to prosecute, or to take it to a grand jury.

a grand jury of president jumps 99 trump's -- host: jodi asked this question, can the president have the ability to declassify any top-secret just by thinking about it? guest: absolutely not. there is no abracadabra, i'm going to make this a declassify document. there are procedures that i am not privy to because i have never declassify documents, but there are procedures you have to follow at the white house when you are the president to declassify a document. you cannot just say, this document is declassified. i do not which camera i should put this up in. there is a document here that is up on the national archives website. i know our viewers can go there if you google presidential records act, go to the national archives website. you find this document here

called guidance on presidential records. that is what the national archives gives to white house staff when they come on board to explain to them in plain english what their responsibilities are under the act. host: have you read it? guest: it is maybe 20 pages, but it is interesting because the introduction is written by then archivist -- welcome to your new job at the white house. please follow these rules. it is literally, soup to nuts, this is the process you follow in dealing with the records you are dealing with. it is written at a 12th grade level. anyone can understand it. host: manwell park, california. this is will, line for independents. caller: good morning. i am reading from the teleprompter. guest: i am looking at the

camera so i can see you. that is what i was told to do. host: the only thing that is in the teleprompter is your name, where you are from and the line you are calling it on. caller: all right, that is all i had. [laughter] host: kirk in florida, republican. good morning. caller: good morning, i had a question about the quote you mentioned, a missing korean document. is there an official list you want to call it that would identify that as a missing document, and they are looking for all the documents on this list? second, where the documents that were at mar-a-lago, where they copies? i do not know if that is the correct word. were they the originals? that was my question today. thank you for your time. guest: i do not know that there is a list.

i would have to check with the national archives about that. there is a list of records that were sent into the presidents, and where they were disposed of. if they went in one direction, they are supposed to come back. i think that is how the national archives knew there were documents missing, but the kim jong-un letter was something president trump had waived around and talked about repeatedly. they knew that one was missing, because it was probably one of the more famous documents of his presidency. i am sorry, could you? repeat your second question host: does the presidential records act layout a timeframe that the national archives and records administration starts tracking these documents? you say they knew about the kim jong-un letter, it was a high-profile letter. are they making these lists as they go and checking them off post presidency? guest: i think the only records

do not get sent to the national archives at the end. there are records that can go over during the presidency. i think part of just -- to digress, part of what happened that contributed to the chaos was, you had a present that still thought he was the president. normally when a president loses the election, the process starts within a couple of days of the election and the new administration is coming in. the old administration starts packing up in november. in this case, you had a president who thought he wasn't leaving. i am guessing a lot of this stuff was postponed and they found out it is january, we've got three weeks to start packing this stuff up. host: the presidential records act of 1978, what did jimmy carter think of this act and what did ronald reagan think of this act? guest: jimmy carter signed it. it was not applicable to him.

congress sets it up so it is applicable to the person who follows the president who signs it. host: it makes it easier to get signed that way. guest: that to. maybe if jimmy carter had not been elected to a second term, it might have been applied to him. i think the law said it would apply to whoever turned out to be president in 1981, who was ronald reagan. no other president has complained about it, every other president has complied with it. actually, they want to get access to the document so they can start working on their library. one of the things the presidential act also calls for is that the records are not available for 12 years to the public. they have to process them and go through them. they are open to the freedom of

information act request after five years, but the public cannot start to see a president's records until 12 years after they leave office. host: nora helps run the presidential library system. has a library or a former president ever wanted to put a document out in their library and nora says, no, you cannot have this document? guest: no. i do not know. i would assume if there was something that was classified that -- i honestly do not know. that is a very good question. host: bethel him, pennsylvania. you are on with lee white. caller: i have one question or two. these national archives, when a president leaves office, isn't it their responsibility to just go take them all to avoid this problem? guest: the national archives responsibility?

yes, the president is supposed to turn everything to the national archives. as of 12:01 after the new president is inaugurated, those records -- to the federal government and you to the american people. host: do you have a follow-up richard? caller: the fbi raided mar-a-lago, correct? why didn't they take all of the records out and end this thing? i do not understand that. that is all i have to say. guest: they had a subpoena to go in and search the property, they did not raid mar-a-lago. they had a court approved subpoena. no, they did not raid mar-a-lago. host: portland, maine. this is jane, democrat. good morning. caller: thank you for having me. how are you? guest: i am great.