announcer: cox supports c-spans a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democrac >> coming up on washington journal, jonathan tamari from bloomberg -- and then history professor discussing the significance of t largest known slave auction in the u.s. ♪ later, a professor from the university of texas at austin on the significance of juneteenth. washington journal starts now. ♪ host: moments ago, secretary of state antony blinken met with

chinese president xi jinping, and exclamation point in the tensions with beijing. we want your thoughts on the biden administration's handling of china. if you approve, host (202) 748-8000. if you disapprove, (202) 748-8001. you can also join us via text with your name, city and state at (202) 748-8003. the secretary of state yesterday meeting with his chinese counterparts for 7.5 hours in china. we are expecting the secretary of state will hold a news conference to wrap up the visit this morning. if he does, we will bring you some of that.

we talked to you this morning about the biden administration's handling of china. do you approve or disapprove, and tell us why. let's listen to what the president had to say on saturday morning before he left for his first political event. he was asked by a reporter about the secretary of state's visit to china. >> can secretary blinken ease tensions with china? pres. biden: look, china has -- unrelated to the united states. it is not so much that it was shot down but i don't think the leadership knew what it was and what was in it and what was going on. i think it was more embarrassing than intentional.

i'm hoping that over the next several months i will be meeting with xi jinping again and talking about the differences we have, but also how we can get along. host: president biden on saturday. this is from reuters, the chinese president haley progress as he meets with secretary blinken during a rare visit to china. the first by a top u.s. diplomat in five years. we want to know, what do you think of the biden policies toward china? you approve or disapprove deco what was on the agenda f the secretary oftate visit. reestablishing high-level diplomacy, talk abou close calls with chinese naval ships around taiwan d her places in asia, chinese efforts to

establish military bases in asia, africa and the middle east and china's suppo for russia in the war on ukraine. as well as shared interests, such as climate change, economic stability and the secretary of state expect to bring up american detainees in china. finally, limiting the exports of substances used to make fentanyl. this was the agenda. they decided what they wanteto talk about, military aid, taan, research of the united states put on manufacturing equipment with the -- which the chinese sake set them back years when it comes toecological develop. those restrictions. and security ties with japan, south korea, the philippines, australia and india. this is from the new york times, what the sides wanted to talk

about during this visit by the secretary of state. john in brooklyn, new york. do you approve of the strategy toward china -- you approve of the strategy, tell us why. guest: president biden has a lot of experience and knows how the government works and runs. he has knowledge. for the last 30 or 40 years, we have made them do a lot of stuff. it is difficult to the way the economy is tied together, trying to exit most of our stuff. that has got to be reversed. but the size of the world economy, the way it is tied together, it is not easy. trump tried to do it and put

sanctions on china and china reversed it. he tried to say china did not how to do it. host: finish up your thought. guest: biden is taking his time and he doesn't want to start a third world war. he is bringing our jobs back home, it is a process. you've got to give it time for them experiencing pro-government. i think he is doing a good job and people should get behind them. guest: -- (202) 748-8000 -- host: john mentioned bringing production of semiconductor chips into the u.s., a lesson learned from the pandemic.

you approve or disapprove about? what areas do think that by demonstration needs to focus on with china? we want to hear from you. more than half of americans lacked confidence in biden's ability to deal with china -- deal effectively with china, the headline from a pole. eric in los angeles, you disapprove. good morning. guest: thank you for taking my call. i disapprove of just about everything joe biden doing. i think he is corrupt. i think he is guilty of treason and has taken money from china and compromised the security of the country. host: in los angeles. the previous caller mentioned the trump administration. -- was on spit -- a state of the

nation. here what he had to say about the status with our relationship in china. >> it was publicly disclosed that china has set up and rebuild part of its listening facilities located in nearby cuba. he acknowledged that. a lot of people see something like out and think of the old cold war. how different is this? >> it is worse. it is a more difficult problem set. because of the way our economies are connected. it is based on flawed assumptions of the intentions of the chinese coming as party. that is what we got wrong. we thought we could determine the behavior of the party by the way we engage them. but they had aspirations far beyond any kind of reaction to what we do. and china wants to establish

itself at the center. guest: what are the key things you are watching for out of this meeting deco host: -- >> recognition on our part that they need to change their behavior. there is a tendency to think a better relationship is the end, but we are going to make concession after concession for a better relationship -- the outcome could be diplomatic achievement, but a political disaster. host: the former national security advisor during the trumpet meditation on china. do you share his concerns and thoughts? what is your take on the biden administration's handling of china? do you approve or disapprove? antony blinken holding a news conference right now at the end of a two date visit from beijing. the first by a top diplomat in

the united states in five years. let's go to mazzulla, montana. you approve. good morning. guest: i approve. you wanted to look at things -- both sides are doing what they can. but we have the strength to go on. china is just a country, more state capitalist than -- i think they keep doing what he can. biden is doing what he can, but he is going to do what he is going to do because of capitalism. china is not a threat but we are going to make it a threat because of this and that.

you have to have borders. host: when you say china is not a threat, want your reaction to the pure research poll that we cited. unfavorable of years of china held by americans were already at a new high last year following the russian invasion according to a poll -- 82% of those surveyed had an unfavorable view of china, compared with 76% year before. the highest since 2005. why do you think that is? guest: because in the american media, we have been trained to hate nations outside of our own. we have to look at our interests. or there's solidarity with the poor and working folks of russia and ukraine who did not want to go to war. in his their people, all for the

-- that is what i think. have a good day. host: it's going to wear the secretary of state into new blinken is holding a news conference and listen in. sec. blinken: we benefit when there is growth in other countries, especially one of the world's largest economies like china. it would not be in our interest to seek -- as i mentioned and you heard secretary yellen talking to congress a few days ago, it would be disastrous. however, what is key to our interest is making sure that specific technologies that china is using to advance the opaque nuclear weapons programs, build hypersonic missiles, use technology that may have oppressive purposes, it is not our job to provide that technology to china.

i've also made that clear. the actions that we have already taken and we will continue to take are narrowly focused, carefully tailored to advance and protect our national security. it's an important distinction. we're not the only ones doing that. the phrase of the day, do you risk not decouple, was put forward by the president of the european commission. it reflects what many countries are saying. both the importance of sustaining economic relations, trade investments in china, it also because of concerns about some of the things china is doing with technology that is getting to them. i spent some time making sure we

are clear about what we are doing and what we are not doing. with regard to legal aid to russia for use in ukraine, we and other countries have received assurances from china that we will not provide assistance to russia to use in ukraine. we appreciate that and we have not seen any countries appreciate that. what we do have concerns about our chinese firms, companies that may be providing technology that russia can use to advance aggression in ukraine. the chinese government needs to be vote -- vigilant about that. next question. >> thank you. i have a question about south africa in the last year china has been given -- breaks.

many people see it this way. there are reasons for people to think that, there are claims that south africa is giving vince russia. but china -- weapons to russia. but china says there already countries lining up. and my president has said that -- has emphasized the dominance of the dollar the world economy. ha the question is how does the united states see this? sec. blinken: as a general proposition, we have launched the proposition that country

should be able to freely associate with other countries and any group that they want. something we strongly stand for and have detected for a long time. we are deeply engaged with leading members. this week, prime minister modi will be having a statement said. and we had a very constructive meeting with president biden. we are engaged across the board with members who will continue to do that. host: secretary of state antony blinken wrapping up his two date visit to china with a news conference. we will monitor that this morning and bring you any other news that we -- he makes from that news conference. focusing on the visit to china, the first by a u.s. diplomat in five years, what do you think

about the handling of u.s. china relations? approve or disapprove? nick approves in royal oak, michigan. good morning. guest: yes, i approve. i have good experience. i lived in china for 10 years right up to the pandemic. i met both of the ambassadors, the council general that was part of the american chamber of commerce in shanghai for years, so a unique perspective. a lot of people in america need to understand that there is no decoupling. there is no possible way for china and america to not get along. and it comes down to these rare earth minerals. the mountains in tibet, the

himalayan mountains, they have all of these metals that go into our cell phones and our electronics. they control 80% of the world supply and that is not changing in our lifetimes. host: many people point to that issue as the reason for their investment in africa as well. guest: yes, but you have to understand how small of a percentage dust cobalt in uganda, those things there. but that might be one or 2% of the world supply. america and the west is the market for those. so they would be worthless without our purchasing of the

electronics that those go in. but we cannot physically create an iphone without those minerals. host: you just heard the secretary oftate talking about restricting certain technology when it comes to hypersonic weapons, nuclear weapons. but he also said any technology that could be -- i think he said oppressive was the word to america. what were you thinking? guest: host: -- guest: it is about reciprocity. i was unable to access facebook, google, those things, basic fairness. we should not allow for example tiktok to be owned by bytedance in beijing. we should force that sale to an american company.

it is our strategic national interest -- there is a steeper -- by the dutch, and the chinese want to buy this to make the most advanced chips and we are researching that. we are saying it is our technology, you are trying to steal it every day. not that america doesn't do the same thing. when i hear certain people call the show and say things like joe biden is a communist, they need to realize how unbelievably free this country is. because there is no rule of law. i always called it rule by law.

it is a false equivalent. they can make the rules up as they go. and they do. because it is a single party in control of all of these people. to what you just said, of course we need to not just let them or any adversaries have our most lethal and advanced technology. host: you have china -- u.s. china relations have been -- differences in desk security concerns. owned by bytedance, more than twice as many americans support the u.s. government banning tiktok.

china already blocked facebook and google. good morning, it is your turn. guest: good morning. i'm interested in saying they do take tiktok out of our communities. it is a chinese sponsor thing. we should not give into the chinese, especially with the attacks on our ships. those weather balloons, they ought to be shut down. we ought to take more aggressive stance. i know i'm extreme and people agree with me. i think they should take away china's influence in the united states. not that we become isolationist but that we just say no. we are supposed to be the number one power in the world and we don't react to anything. certainly we might cause a war,

but we are fighting wars everywhere, why not make it a permanent thing? host: you said be more aggressive. do you agree with this visit by the secretary of state? should he have gone? guest: i think he should have gone with a sterner commitment rather than a piece objective. he should've said look, if you come near our ships and shoot them, if you cross over turbulence they're going to shoot them. i about aggressive. host: thank you, in connecticut. must listen to a congressman who disagreed with this visit to china by the secretary of state. telling people this medication with china is old thinking. >> sec. should not be on this trip.

i don't know what more they are doing in terms of violating international law. for us to take a stand and not send our secretary of state and defense secretary last week on bended knee that plays into chinese propaganda. but what this is all about is the major establishment institutions that the democrats care the most about. the corporations on wall street, academia, they were just desperate to keep the status quo so they can keep making money even as we see the most serious -- old up and modern american history. and as he ramps up his rhetoric about replacing and defeating the united states and the decline of democracy and the ascendancy of the socialism with chinese characteristics. but that'll thinking, if we talk enough, sit at the table enough, our adversaries will do so in

kind and be nice as well. host: a republican congressman, michael waltz talking about this chip -- trip made to china by the secretary of state. you can see what he says is aggression toward the u.s.. do you approve or disapprove of president biden's handling of china? in ohio, you disapprove. tell us why. guest: good morning. i love your show and i can't stand it when people say that you are biased because you're not. everybody gets a voice. i definitely disapprove. but i've actually disapproved of all previous administration's. i am antiwar. i recommend everybody to follow

a great organization for peace. it is about american hegemony and i'm sick of people calling joe biden and trump communists. they don't know what economist is. i am sick of hearing communist china. we have demonized china, russia, anyone who doesn't agree and go along with the american capitalist ride. that is what it is all about. i just want peace. when nancy pelosi went to taiwan, that was a mistake. that was saber rattling. we need negotiations and everybody needs to get their big girl pants on and their big oil pants on and stop this nonsense. we are suffering, people are dying needlessly. i just want peace.

host: do you agree then that the secretary of state made this attempt to call tensions with china by going to beijing? guest: maybe. i saw a couple of clips of him, he is a warmonger. antony blinken is a warmonger. that is all there is to it. i did -- i think he had a tone that maybe we could negotiate. but we can't go into their territory and think they relied on china and we are in their territory was on the goes wrong. i can't believe the american people fall for this. host: what about chinese aggression toward taiwan? is that worth defending? guest: i don't think they are being aggressive. i think that is propaganda. i talked to someone w was in there recently. taiwan does not wana war and china does not want a war.

it is propaganda and i'm not buying it. i hope the american people and everybody in the world will wake up and see what is going on here. taiwan doesn't want to go to war with china and china does not want to go to war with taiwan. that is just propaganda. host: all right. lori in ohio. george in massachusetts, do you approve? guest: good morning. mi on the air? host: you are. guest: today's juneteenth, and we should be talking about american history. host: we will. guest: we should not be known against -- with this topic, it is interesting but it should be put off for another day. you have enough time to speak about juneteenth and the people that happened to black people in this country. host: we are going to do that,

the last half of the show we will have open forum where people can talk about juneteenth. thank you for the reminder. i should have brought that up before now. that is what we will talk about the last half of today's washington journal. we have a couple of conversations with some guests. we hope you will stay with us this morning through 10:00 a.m. anthony in detroit disapproves of the handling toward china. go ahead. guest: good morning. i disapprove of their entire foreign policy agenda. i don't think blinken is a diplomat, he is an anti-diplomat. he does not really spread peace. i thought he was supposed to visit china a few months ago but maybe he got disinvited. i'm looking on twitter and online and i see pictures of him -- he did not get a red carpet or military honors.

they do not even have the u.s. flag when he shook hands with the foreign minister. china is showing blinken the lack of respect that they deserve. it is funny, they say china virus. not necessarily blinken, but the right wing says china virus. as far as i'm concerned, that whole thing is the national institutes of health. not china. host: echoing the headline in the washington times. no pomp, only circumstance for blinken visit. he received a chilly welcome upon arrival to china and photo and video posted to social media appeared to show the top diplomat being greeted by relatively lower ranking chinese diplomats. that paled in comparison to the last red carpet ceremony that french president emmanuel macron received when he visited china in april. it is partially due to his

status as head of state. but it also -- boat message to washington to the minimalist welcome. in the washington times this morning. patrick in san francisco, you approve. guest: yes, i do. thank you for having on the show. it is great. this diplomacy is about -- russia had on the table -- the chinese diplomats go on and on and they give a massive speech and reiterated the position. we should back up our positions. i understand everything -- i don't tend to understand every

thing there is going on. we don't know exactly what is going on behind the scenes. so far, the results are good. it is something we all know about. on the other hand, i think the idea is to hold our position and of the same time keep -- keep something. host: hold our position on taiwan as well? guest: yes. we purposefully not recognize taiwan. their right to exist. it is not all about ukraine. china does have a bigger claim on taiwan then rush on ukraine. on the other hand, the japanese held -- before world war ii.

it is not up to those dictators. world leaders, you're supposed to help people come to a conclusion. host: should bpa leader on defending democracy? -- should we be a leader on defending democracy? guest: absolutely. there are ways to do that and military is not the only way. the diplomacy and -- they are different branches of government. diplomacy is what happens behind the scenes. trump was crazy. host: so you disagree with u.s. military aid to taiwan? guest: no. we should ntinue giving it. because we maintain the status quo. host: patrick, thank you for getting up early.

back to the washington times. u.s. china -- over the islands democracy of taiwan, which beijing views as part of sovereign china. it has vowed to come under chinese control using force if necessary. tom from ohio, disapproving. guest: i have not talked to you and probably a year. anyway, i wanted to call and i want you to remember some of my calls. i was morning in 2017, 2018 that china's mission statement is world domination. this is not a joke. you've got to wake up. they are now in four south american countries, putting aircraft and missiles in south america. we are going to be surrounded. now they are in cuba. they have chinese police stations in america.

they are getting all set up to take it over. this is my wake-up call. if you give me a moment to say what i wanted to say, to all americans. i want to change the narrative and expose joe biden as the first illegitimate president. 17% of biden voters said they would not have voted for joe if they had known the truth about hunter's laptop. host: are you done? guest: almost. he crept to the government and interfered with the 2020 election. he used treason, he is illegitimate. host: this morning we are going to continue until 8:00 eastern time talking about the biden administration's handling of china.

do you approve or disapprove? moments ago, secretary of state antony blinken wrapped up his visit to beijing. the first top diplomat to do so in five years. he was supposed to do so a few months ago but the alleged spy balloon by china that came over the united states, when that happened, after that, the administration decided to scrap visit. now the secretary of state met with his counterpart yesterday in beijing. this morning he did visit with the president of china, xi jinping. you can see they met at the table and the reporters were allowed to capture the beginning of the meeting and then it happened behind closed doors. the secretary of state finished his news conference and you will be able to find out later on c-span.org. while we wait for more of your

calls to come in this morning, as we mentioned a moment ago, today is juneteenth. when president abraham lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation on january 1, 1863, to free enslaved african americans, it took time for war to spread. even though the emancipation proclamation was made effective that year through the 13th amendment, it could not be enforced in secessionist states still under confederate control. it was not until more than two years later, june 19, 1865 that major general gordon granger arrived in galveston, texas with 2000 union troops to proclaim that more than 250,000 enslaved black people in the state were afraid. some local slaveowners initially ignored the directive, but granger demanded they comply with the proclamation. why is it called juneteenth?

it derives its name from combining june and 19th. that day that he issued his proclamation. juneteenth has been observed annually in various parts of the united states, broadly celebrating african-american culture. we are going to talk more in our last half-hour on washington journal. donna in illinois, you approve of the way the president has been -- his strategy and policy toward china. guest: yes, i do approve of joe biden. look at not just his presidency. his whole cabinet. he has put people in who no one is going on and are trying to approve our country. biden and -- the usually funds

the military-industrial complex. it is not just the president, it is a war culture in the country. i think joe biden is doing the best he can and i do approve of him and i hope everyone realizes it is not just his presidency but the aura of cooperation and his dialogue. thank you. host: in tampa, florida. you disapprove. guest: yes, good morning. there are so many issues. china, we brought all of the chinese people and we educated them to build up -- they owe us gratitude. blinken looked stunned.

there was a laundry list of things that need to get done with our relationship with china. but we have to be careful that our country does not become subservient to china. we have to stand up and be bold and i don't think biden is doing a great job. host: would you agree with this headline, americans continue to view china as the u.s. greatest enemy? guest: yeah, it is not a cold war. we need each other. i heard that china is building a base in cuba or they had one for a long time. and then china said we did nothing wrong. but this congressman was saying they went over one or -- more than one or two.

blatant disregard for our sovereignty. host: we listen to what h.r. mcmaster has to say on the morning show, talking about the incidences in recent months by china. >> it is an unusual turn of quick succession of multiple incidents. china's sending message, we are in charge. it is indicative of what they hope to achieve, which is to create an exclusionary area of privacy across the in the pacific region. they have laid claim to the ocean in the south china sea. it really calls for us to have a strong response. they pretrade their weakness -- >> what do you mean? >> we have been so anxious to have this discussion.

the chinese have in playing hard to get in terms of the discussion. i think what they hope, i am sure secretary boykin is aware of this, there is a great perception that we are going there to pay homage to the chinese commonest party. they use that perception of china's relative to the united states and state time to bandwagon with us. this is our arrow, the new era of international relations. host: on the sunday show, h.r. mcmaster's, former national security advisor to president trump. we're getting your take on the biden ministrations handling of china. tommy and georgia approves. guest: how you doing? host: morning. tell us why. why you approve. guest: i approve of joe biden because he is starting to put our presidents back in the area.

-- navy presence back in the area. he is building a new navy ship that should be out in about eight years to combat china and he is bouncing off things with strength. if we got our navy ship out of that area, prior to biden being president, now he is starting to rebuild, our navy president in the area. i think it will be more security . host: would you agree that americans continue to view china as the u.s. greatest enemy? guest: yes. i wouldn't call them an enemy, but they definitely are our greatest adversary across the board because they want to take down the dollar. if they take down the dollar because of trying to start their

own currency, if they want to take on the dollar, we would be in trouble. host: front page of the washington times this morning, a tax policy bill aimed to offset high inflation, punishing china and russia. this is from republicans who control the majority in the house. it includes the new tax cut package. a bevy of provisions to bolster the economy and offset the impact of inflation. it includes increasing the standard reduction on income taxes him a expanding opportunity zones, property purchases linked to china and russia. we are rolling back recording transactions to the irs and restoring a trump arrow business expense right off. a little china policy at their. the latest proposal written by

house republicans. in philadelphia, good morning. guest: good morning america and c-span. house republicans with their ridiculous, dumb, out-of-control -- billionaires getting more tax breaks. i'm in philadelphia. host: we're are talking about china. guest: i agree that china, russia, saudi arabia are trying to be a worm digging into our economy as well. there are many countries and places that are trying to undermine what is going on in our economy. joe biden was here and flew over

my yard with marine one and two to look at the rebuilding of i-95. i appreciate joe biden. he is a good man, a good heart. he's not jesus. he can't do everything. but that man works his behind off. unlike the last president who went to the golf course all the time and lies to america. people of america, please understand. i am working hard. my neighbors and friends working hard. to make sure that man stays in office. host: clay in louisiana, you disapprove of the handling of china. tell us why. guest: frankly i don't think he is capably -- capable of handling the situation in china.

i think this man is too old. i looked at an analogous situation of a president on his fourth term. his big ego let him run and he was too sick to deal. we almost lost euro is about. if he does another time, he will be too old to handle china. host: denise in washington state , -- sorry, -- denise. sorry. go ahead. guest: [laughter] it's ok. i wanted to tell you i appreciate how you conduct your show. i think you do a smooth transition from each caller. everyone has good ideas and mine is that i approve because biden

is experienced in diplomacy. i think having someone that knows how to use to coram to achieve what they need to achieve for diplomatic reasons, he is quite the guy to do it. he's very experienced. just like going through a surgeon, a dentist, i want to see somebody that knows what they're doing in the job and he does. thank you. have a good day. host: youtube. -- you, too. susan in connecticut, disapproving. guest: my reason of disapproving is not that i think he is not can about doing a good job. and is that china, they have their own economics. they did not come out of covid economically strong and that is a better opportunity and worrying about -- then worrying

about the encounters we are having with china. i don't think that spending that china is doing in other countries is going to stand up with time. their own people are protesting and eventually i think they will be protesting that their economy is weak. a lot of people are going to be out of work. i have a feeling it will backfire on them when they look at america. i think we should look at our own economy and other countries that came out of covid very weak and still struggling. china is one of them that should be the focus. some of that is smoke they are doing to take the fact off the are weak and it is all about the money. have a nice day. host: ok susan. you also. michael in virginia, approve or

disapprove? guest: i approve. biden has a lot of experience from his years in the senate and as president. it is a low are the way the chinese manhandled trump. all those years. i think they are on the right path. obviously there are a number of issues they have to work out with china. i don't think it will go that well, only because china has a history of racism in their own writings. they talk about the one true group of people and everybody else should be subservient to them, that goes back thousands of years. it will be hard to follow but hopefully that will follow with blinken and biden. i think they will be able to maintain if not advance america's interest. host: raymond in florida, approve or disapprove? guest: i disapprove for the main

reason of these key vest the pushing from dust pushing for electric vehicles. he wants us to be reliant on ev's. the problem is these minerals, everyone realizes the come from the congo chile -- congo, chile. but that refinement into the making of the batteries, it is like the difference between the crude oil and making the gasoline. the refinement is there controlling -- if you look at the numbers, it is 70 or 80% of the refinement. we keep pushing ourselves into this ev, even closer to china. it is amazing we don't have the wherewithal to come up with a hybrid to go from combustion engine to ev's and we go to this electric vehicle.

i think we are doing an awful job with the reliance on china. host: josé in melbourne, florida. your turn. guest: thank you. approve. americans need to stop being hypocritical about the age of this man. look at congress. how many people are the same age as biden in their? -- in there? he is wise and knows what he's doing. american people need to stopping hypocrites and stop jumping on this. there are a lot of people in congress older than biden. host: tied that to how he is handling china. guest: he handle china perfectly. trying to avoid war. that is what he is trying to do. it is going to be ugly when they go to war with china. read the bible. there will be power, according to the words.

host: in st. louis, missouri. guest: how are you doing? i am calling to ask, do you remember when joe biden stopped the investigation from the united states of america, what china was doing to america, all of the tariffs that trump put on china and jill biden took all of tariffs off? why would a president of the united states give china the upper hand by stopping an investigation in the united states of america on what the chinese was doing to help -- to help joe biden, we know that today. but also to help create a more powerful china, that joe biden could stop that when he became

president if he never got rid of the things that trump did to stop china from doing multiple bad things in the united states? do you remember when joe biden did that? host: and your point of bringing it up is what? guest: i believe that china controls joe biden. and whatever is going on in the china sea right now is because of joe biden. host: got it. carly, philadelphia. good morning. guest: good morning. i think when we are talking about comparing biden and trump, you have to look at the whole scope of everything. for me, the 2024 election is about damage control.

i don't necessarily love joe biden. but i hate with a fervent passion, things trump has done. host: tie this to chinese policy. guest: specifically, i'm concerned about the legislation happeng at the state level in some instances, some federal legislation around the non-binary and trans and queer committee. host: what does that have to do with how the biden administration is handling china? guest: nothing, but -- host: we have a few minutes left. the top of the hour, 8:00 a.m.. joseph in north carolina. there has been too much saber rattling in china. medication is but -- important

-- communication is important. he writes this in a text. the entire world has a problem with medication. -- communication. michael says he approves of the biden administration's handling of china. steady and professional is how he describes it. another text from bruce in ohio, i disapprove of everything of joe biden, he has compromised with the bribery payments. tony, it is hard to assess his actions in a vacuum or without giving him time. at this stage it does not look promising. in allentown, pennsylvania, you approve. share your thoughts. guest: i am a democrat and i disapprove of that. we live under capitalism and it feels like we are treating an issue with business rivals in

the marketplace -- they are business rivals. we outperform that in business, not by sending navy ships to war. they have not done anything to us. there's turning from business. host: let's listen to what the secretary of state had to say in his last hour when he held his news conference at the end of his visit to beijing. he was asked about whether relations with china are now better after he made the visit. guest: it was clear coming in that the relationship was at a point of instability. both sides recognize the need to work to stabilize it. and specifically we believe it is important, as i said, to establish better lines of

communication, open channels of medication. both to address the miscalculations, to ensure the competition does not -- and we were able not only today and yesterday to move back to those communications, but also we can anticipate in the week ahead by other senior officials, chinese officials coming to the united states for that purpose. it is important to use this for purposes of stabilizing the relationship, to be able to directly raise, face-to-face, issues of concern. cases where we have profound differences. those disagreements are well-known. they are bilateral challenges, global issues, regional security issues, values, human rights. and we do in great detail and at some length raise them, discuss

them, and that is also beneficial. to make sure we have priority -- clarity. clarity on intent. this was an opportunity to explore areas where we might cooperate in the interest of people around the world. on the climate, economic stability, global health, fentanyl. on exchanges between our people. i think in terms of those objectives that we set for this trip, establishing communication channels, raising interest -- issues of concern, exploring places where it is in our mutual interest to do so. we did all that on this trip. but progress is hard. it takes time and it is not the product of one visit, one conversation.

my expectation is we will have better mitigation, but her engagement going forward. that is not going to solve every problem, far from it. but it is critical to doing what we both agree is necessary. and that is responsibly managing relationships. it is inching -- in the interest of the united states, china, and the world. we took a positive step in that direction over the last two days. host: the secretary of state in the last hour as he wraps up his visit to china. the first top diplomat to do so in five years. you will be able to watch the news conference in its entirety on our website, c-span.org, or on our free video mobile app. next up on the washington journal, limburg government congress reporter jonathan -- limburg government commerce reporter jonathan tamari will be joining us.

and to neil joseph -- and discussing the significance of juneteenth. we will be right back. ♪ >> of the democracy doesn't just look like this, it looks like -- healthy democracy doesn't just look like this, it looks like this. get informed straight from the sort of unfiltered, unbiased, word for word on the nation's capital to wherever you are. the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. >> nonfiction book lovers, c-span has a number of podcasts for you.

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>> listening to programs and c-span radio just got easier. tell your smart speaker can listen to washington journal. catch washington today for a fast-paced report of the stories of the day. listen to c-span anytime. just tell your smart speaker, play c-span radio. "washington journal" continues. host: at our table this morning, a congressional reporter with bloomberg government, jonathan t amari. they are out for the federal holiday of juneteenth. but what is the week like? guest: the house and senate are on divergent tracks.

the will push ahead with judges nominated by president biden. they have been able to unstick some of the candidates that were installed by republicans. there is one nominee for the first circuit court of appeals who appears to be likely to be confirmed. another nominee for the eastern district of new york is lined up. one of a number of nominees had been installed and democrats are bringing to the floor. a divided government has not a lot of major legislation likely to pass. the power can have a lot of influence. on the house side, a number of bills that probably won't get through the senate but could escort political points is a bill to allow businesses to

offer slimmer health plans. trying to repeal some mortgage policies and may take up a bill to override student debt relief that president biden offered. none of those seem likely to get to the senate. and if they did they won't be signed by the president but they could certainly put some democrats on the defensive and let republicans show the flag of what they say they would do if they could gain more power in the next election. host: what are your questions about work being done this week by congress? republicans dial in at (202) 748-8000, democrats (202) 748-8000s and independent (202) 748-8002.

you can text to (202) 748-8003. let's also talk about the simmering tensions between the speaker, kevin mccarthy, and house conservatives of the so-called freedom caucus, the faction of the republicans who were upset about the deal he struck with the president over the debt ceiling. where are their talks right now? guest: they were finally able to at least get to a point where the freedom caucus allowed the house to move forward with a number of bills. that appears to be the status quote going forward that they are still having conversations but it doesn't sound like they will hold the floor hostage the way they did a couple weeks ago. it is a delicate situation, as we haven't seen it. we are waiting to see more of

what goes on with the bills coming forward which are widely supported by republicans. it does not sound like they will try to solve them at the moment. but because it is so delicate it could change at any moment. it only takes a small number of people to resist to jam up the entire works of the house. host: what has the group said about keeping kevin mccarthy as their speaker? guest: they have not said. there has been little discussion publicly of trying to remove him. they are angry and they showed that by blocking the floor action but have not taken the steps to remove him has house speaker, but we all know that hangs over him. it could limit what else he is able to do because he has to be conscious of that possibility enduring out there at all times. host: what is the next test for him from the perspective of the conservatives? guest: we do not have another

must pass bill like the debt ceiling bill was. i think as we look ahead and maybe look at the appropriations bills that will be passed as part of the debt ceiling bill agreement and the conservatives want appropriations to be lower than what is in that deal and democrats will resist that and there will be a test if it can pass to the house with numbers lower it probably comes back from the senate back from a than the conservative wing wants but that would be the next flashpoint but that is probably weeks or months. host: if the two sides don't agree, what deadline do they face? guest: there are elements in the bill if they are unable to reach an agreement, there are some penalties that could arise.

what both sides are counting on is the house gets something passed in the senate sends something back that is bipartisan and you may see the same bipartisan that passed the debt bill for the appropriations bill. host: we have a headline, it flexed on the debt bill and it may not last. guest: the debt bill was a unique situation read had and immediately, possibly catastrophic economic consequences if no action was taken. if there is no action taken by congress, it will have the status quo even if it is not great. that was not the thing if the debt bill didn't pass. don't think there is a template for big transformative

legislation but even though you saw the middle, together and both parties coming together to pass it, it doesn't seem, partly from what we said about kevin mccarthy. he has to put forward a compromised bill that could further enrich those folks and they may take a step further than they have. as far as the appropriations bill on the farm bill we may see similar consequences. i think it is very unlikely we will see the kind of bipartisan ship and other things. host: the tension between the factions of the republican party and the relationship with speaker at mccarthy. guest: he was able to have more

influence than minority leader would typically have in the fight. in the house you majority does what they want in the minority criticizes them but has little power to stop them. in this place, democratic votes were needed and jeff rate was with a lot of the talks and press conferences that tends to shape the narrative. but his caucus had to deliver votes that was mainly between the president and the speaker. when it comes to the appropriations bill and other things, he might start to see him say if you want more votes you have to take into consideration more of our priorities. host: let's talk about another headline from you, former president trump's indictment poised to rip through work on capitol hill. how so?

guest: it is a moment that sends everybody to their corners. you are seeing most republicans come out and defend the president. we know the house judiciary committee and committees on the weaponization of the federal government as the republicans call it, they could take up a fight for president trump in congress. you're seen a split reaction. he has significant support in the house typically among the congress. there are numbers of republicans that would want to separate themselves from him even though they are not criticizing him. democrats are trying to find the balance where they are trying not to make this seem political because the former president is trying to say it is a political and they don't want to give him

more fodder. they are saying let's let the legal process play out and he can have his defense and the prosecutors can make their case. host: what do you think happens after hearing from the former attorney general william barr? here is a headline describing trump's defense in documents case as absurd and wacky. he went on to compare the former president to a defiant nine-year-old. guest: i am sure that is something democrats will point to and some in the republican party. but within that trump is almost impervious to criticism even from people like bill barr some and he personally appointed.

folks like him and his former chief of staff have left the administration and band critical of temp in public and he basically says, now, they were never with me even though he appointed them and his supporters dismissed their views. i feel like a lot of these statements encourage trump critics but they don't move his supporters away from him. host: mitchell in new jersey, a democratic caller, you are up. caller: my question would be, haven't the republicans lost a lot of leverage now? since the debt ceiling dispute has ended and the catastrophic outcomes to the economy are off the table, we have lived through

numerous government shutdowns and there has been negative feedback, particularly at the last 30 day shutdown with trump over the border wall that didn't go well for him and lowered his poll numbers and received disdain from the american public. seems to me democrats don't have a lot in this to negotiate as willingly with the republican party. guest: i think that is largely true and a good point that there is not the same pressure and have gotten through from a democratic perspective. i do think there will be some negotiation. republicans want to pass a new series of tax cuts and their are talks that the democrats may try to get some restoration of the child tax credit.

the appropriations bill, it is likely -- the shutdown in the past the blame has fallen on members of congress who held out but i think as president biden runs for reelection, he probably doesn't want a shut on his watch and he is also inclined to want to make deals. his entire message is that he can be a return to some old political normalcy. i think the likes the idea he can be in the middle and make deals with republicans. i wouldn't meet surprised if there are some compromises made on both sides but i agree that it is not the same mistakes as the debt ceiling fight and democrats may not be pulled as far as they were in that situation. host: a question from a viewer in a tweet, tommy turberville

has the hold on military appointees has the -- has the senate removed his hold? guest: last i've heard he has not had the hold removed and there is consternation from both sides but it is one of the powers in the senate that individuals can use them for muscle to do that and it is a big coverage point that senators have an he is holding out as far as we are aware. host: what about j.d. vance and his holdout? guest: that is another response we were talking about the effects of the trump indictment rippling through capitol hill. he said he will hold up doj nominees and there is no sign he is backing down that just began last week. host:, independent.

-- pat, independent. caller: my problem with the congress is the right wing of the republican party isn't turned to a commish anything except for havoc. what is jim jordan trying to do, legislate for the people or promote fox news? i really have no idea. where is it coming from? people have died for the three branches of government. it seems to me the republicans don't really care about that. it bothers me. guest: when you take a step back on the big picture and talk about governing philosophies, democrats believe that the

government is something that can do good and help people and impose different regulations and rules that help advance the certain policies. pumpkins generally want the government to be as small as possible so they have less come in general tend to have less mission for what they want congress to do. a lot of people like jim jordan and freedom caucus are glad to see the government doing less and that is a problem why they are more content to fight the political wars and use the platforms in congress. the don't necessarily want to oppose big government programs the way democrats did when they had total control and passed the infrastructure bill or health care reform. that is one of the big differences between the parties. i don't feel all republicans feel that way and some do have ambition to change policies,

such as health care and family leave. but there is a wave of the party that his intent to see the other side stalled. there is a tweet, will they provide a report on george santos? guest: the ethics committee, i don't know where they are on that situation but in general, the committee operates largely behind closed doors and say very little about what they are doing. there are not a lot of leaks coming from them. you find out at the very end what they have done and concluded. they concluded they found wrongdoing and think it is may be 50-50 and not take action. we usually get a vague letter that says we concluded our investigation and that is about it. it is very opaque process and it may be a while for we find out. host: on wednesday e justice

department special counsel john durham ttifies on his investigation of the f probe of the links between the 2016 trump campaign and russian operates. he released a final report last month with his findings and you can watch the house judiciary committee lied at 9:00 a.m. easter time on c-span3, c-span now, our free video noble app, and online at c-span.org. remind our viewers what john durham found and what the republicans want to hear. what will they be asking? guest:'s findings ended up being after a long investigation there was not a blockbuster finding in his report. there were no major convictions that resulted from his investigation. republicans are going to want to highlight the aspect of that report that they say shows misuse by the fbi and

specifically in the origins of the investigation into former president donald trump and his campaign and possible ties to russia that were investigated. he did not find a smoking gun that really stood out and really changed our understanding of how the investigation again or contradicted with the doj inspector general said, which was that it had essentially said it began under reasonable circumstances. there are elements he found that i can sure republicans will want to highlight and this has been the playbook throughout the presidency and investigation that followed him after his presidency with a try to find any threat that suggests miss doing. they don't defend his actions but they say all these other people are just as bad as him and i think that is what they will try to highlight and elevate given their control of the judiciary committee. host: you can watch john durham

at 9:00 a.m. eastern time on c-span-3 this wednesday. along with our website and our free mobile app. john in massachusetts, independent. your question about congress. caller: i don't trust either party. this is the same party that when in 1913 established a reserve bank. the j.p. morgan's and rockefellers, and rockefellers said we need a nation of workers not what they call critical thinkers. since then we have been at war with this corporate, fascist government that has murdered people of color for the past 400 years and maybe even 2000 years since the roman catholic church the inquisition that started. what we are basically doing is

making the globalists richer while we set up a plantation in america that has been going on for 400 years. all of the european countries, africa, south america, columbia, when it is america and the white race that created that schism and i'm innocent and never to some. host: went leave it there. before we let you go, what are you watching for in the coming days? guest: he will be watching, again, it is a quiet week ahead heading into a two-week recess. we will be watching to see if the democrats can get some nominees through and the republicans we will watch if they will attempt to repeal

legislation and republican can say these help people with disabilities. it could be something republicans use in the senate and put some vulnerable democrats in an up -- uncomfortable positions. that could be an interesting political moment that we might see on the senate floor this week. host: thanks for your time. guest: thanks for having me. host: when we come back, we will turn our attention to juneteenth and talk about the history and significance of it with peniel joseph from the university of

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your fingertips. stay current with the latest episodes of "washington journal" and the tv networks and radio. c-span now is available at the apple store and google play. it download it free today. c-span now, your front row seat to washington. "washington journal" continues. host: we are in open forum on this monday, june 19. it is juneteenth, the federal holiday that was made a federal holiday in 2021. a reminder for you what is juneteenth, when president abraham lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation on january 1 18 63 to free and slaves -- free enslaved -- january 1, 1863 to free slaves.

it wasn't until one then two years later on june 19, 1865 that major general gordon ranger arrived in texas with 2000 union troops to proclaim that when the 250,000 enslaved black people were freed. some local owners ignored the proclamation but he demanded they comply. last week at the white house, the president hosted a juneteenth celebration here is what he had to say. pres. biden: making juneteenth a federal holiday wasn't just a symbolic gesture but a statement of fact to this country to acknowledge the origin of original sin of slavery, to understand the war was never fought over it. it was most fundamentally about

a country and its freedom. the emancipation proclamation was a document, it captured the essence of freedom and galvanized the country to prove that some ideas are more powerful and can't be denied. it is a reminder that the problems is that we are all created equal in the image of god and deserve to be created equally throughout our entire lives. [applause] we are the most unique country in the world. we are founded on an idea unlike any other country in the world. we hold these tuesday self-evident that all men and women are created equal and while we never fully lived up to that promise, we have never walked away from it. on our best days number of us have guts and heart to stand up

the best in us. it matters. the past few years remind us freedoms have been put at risk fight racism that is still too powerful a force. when i was a kid in the civil rights, i honestly believed you could defeat hate, but hate only hides. it hides under the rock. with given oxygen it comes roaring back and we have to stand up and deny the oxygen. juneteenth is a federal holiday is meant to breathe new life into the very essence of america, to make sure all americans feel the power of the day and the progress we can make . to choose love over hate, unity over disunion and progress over retreat. choosing eight remembered history and not to erase it. to read books and not ban them,

the matter how hard some people try. host: cement biden marking the juneteenth holiday at a white house event last week. this morning we are in open forum. you can talk about the juneteenth holiday or any other public policy issue. we'll go to rent -- rick in manchester, missouri. caller: i have been meaning to call him when you have been posting. i was watching your program and i want to go back to january 6, 2021. i was watching or broadcast that morning. you were covering the senate that particular day. the first thing i recall when things started to turn south was the coverage cut over to people who seemed to be walking peacefully through one of the halls of congress between

barriers of corridors. once we had the investigations, i have tried to go back to the c-span archive to see the unadulterated broadcast you did that day so i could see those events again. every time i search it takes me to the hearings afterwards. so what are the search parameters i should be looking for to get that line of coverage that day that was broadcast? guest: are you -- host: are you doing in the video library? caller: video library, january 6, 2021 live. so with everybody's talking points and all of the nonsense since then. host: we were covering the house sessions that day and then you will remember that once the objection came to arizona, the

house members and senators were in the chamber but once the errors in objection came up and went back to separate chambers for debate about that. that is why we were covering that. it is a house session so that me -- may be the key to voting is the house session january 6, 2021. give that a try. caller: i will give that a try. i remember you were broadcasting on two channels and i didn't want to hear the house of representatives. i thought they would be grandstanding and that the senate would be speaking with a higher level of intellect, so to speak. i will search on house sessions. host: from what i recall that day we flipped to the senate

because the house suddenly went out. because of what was happening in that chamber, because of the people on the ground coming into the chamber. anyway. pat, a democratic caller. caller: a little bit of history and might -- my history be slightly wrong. the emancipation proclamation actually freed the slaves in the southern states which at the time had no control of. there were still several states that remained loyal to the union, kentucky, maryland, delaware and i believe maybe one in the southern territories. they still had slaves and they were not freed at that

particular time. however, this is not against juneteenth. i am all for celebrating the eventual freedom of all peoples and particularly the black people who were so mistreated in this country for so long. it is a real stain on our ideal of freedom for all and equality. i am not knocking that. but i think the last guy who spoke on the last segment, he had it about right, the way the powers that be have controlled the populace of this country as well as the entire world. they have done it through means of economic bullying throughout history. it is time for it to stop.

i hope the union and the lives of people relies the way they have been treated and manipulated will wake up and see that they have actual economic power to bring things to a halt if they are not treated better. thank you for letting me to say everything i said. host: david from illinois, independent. caller: you need to get your information right. the first slaves came over with the first british ships. before you were talking about they were irish who had been enslaved over a thousand years to the british. if you want to get your information correct, the blacks on the west side of africa went

in and got the slaves and brought them to the west side of africa and sold them to the slavers on the ships and brought them north. i don't know where these people have been getting their information from, but they need to look at real history. white people could not go into the jungles of africa because of the -- host: i will leave it there. we are going to be talking about the significance of the juneteenth holiday from 9:15 to 10:00 and you are also welcome to bring it up in the open forum. the director of the senate of race and the struggle for racial justice the 21st century.

linda in north carolina, republican. what is on your mind? caller: i have been listening to some of your callers. i think some of them are living under a rock. you had a question about what do you think about biden sending antony blinken. that was a waste of money. this is my concern about why i stop voting for democrats. i used to be a democrat but i changed with bill clinton the second term when he came in and ruined this young girls life by lying. from there i didn't listen to democrats. i have written down that the fbi and the cia need to be recharged, clean house.

the wife and hunter, his son, that should be on every network. these so-called leaders, i don't like to use that word anymore since bill clinton, hunter needs to be on the news talking about this investigation. biden needs to be on the news, the grandchild. if you can't handle your family, how can you handle a country? obama, he was trying to close the veteran owned -- veteran hospital. that was a joke. he was soliciting others for his

insurance. that was a joke. bill clinton and his wife, she needs to be in jail. january 6, i had a nice time there. some people you can't control. nancy didn't bring in the national guard when requested. basketball, baseball, football. host: let's go to billy in texas, democratic caller. caller: good morning. form -- good morning to america. i am a black man and we played an important role in america. we get a lot of fake news. if our country was controlled by people people we wouldn't be this powerful nation. the president brought in the

juneteenth deal. blacks have played an important role in america. we also have people and people was built america by god. russia is being controlled by crooked people. c-span allows speech and i'm a true man of god and i am a nation -- and this is a nation of god. host: we will go to marietta georgia, independent. caller: as a defendant of the slaves brought over against their will, we were not immigrants. this think about juneteenth when

joe biden made it a national holiday, it wasn't symbolism, it was symbolism to get black people. black people were celebrating juneteenth a long time ago. they didn't need the acceptance of white people. this is not about everybody. this is about the enslaved that were emancipated on that day now they are just going to be commercialized and the significance will be lost. it is not everybody. host: you may be interested in the front pages of the washington post this morning, could tonja brown jackson's ancestors were enslaved and her husband the enslavers.

today, as it illustrated, they are left with the historical and in comment, enslaved people come his ancestors on the motors were them or the front page of the washington post this morning. terry, democratic caller in georgia. caller: happy monday and happy juneteenth everyone. i have a few things to say. some have been calling in because they are angry. juneteenth is definitely something americans need to be aware of. make it a celebration.

it is something that has been celebrated for years. add to that today is that day. i think c-span instead of calling this an open forum, c-span should call it the topic for the date is juneteenth. if you safe open forum, people call in and say everything. host: i said it is one of the topics people could call in about. caller: but the writing on the screen says open forum but that lends itself to everybody. i think it should be juneteenth because there is enough to discuss about juneteenth. so having that, i think colors for discussing this.

i think this is an important holiday and i hope people will research juneteenth and find out actually what did happen moving forward. i love the fact that we can do that and i hope callers will continue to call in and enlighten everyone on what this is about. that is all i wanted to say. thank you very much, america. host: larry, winchester, illinois, independent. caller: today is juneteenth, the date we celebrate the republicans freeing the slaves from the democrats. they are the ones that held the slaves and started the kkk, but the blacks think the democrats are wonderful. it seems ironic to me. host: jacky, columbia maryland, an independent. caller: i appreciate c-span

because people can call in and express themselves. the gentleman before me, republicans switched from democrats. it is not the same republican party happening during the civil war. the juneteenth message is when they got the message to the enslaved in texas but it did not free all enslaved people. it freed only those in rebellious states. and the emancipation did not free all enslaved because the 13th amendment still allowed slavery in this country through the prison system. i appreciate c-span allowing us to get the truth out that

history is always slightly clear but not as clear as it should be . slavery still exists in this country and the iris -- irish were enslaved in europe. host: we are going to keep going with open forum. i want to share this story written on the propublica of a grad student on covered the largest slave sale. she is joining us and is also joined with bernard powers, director for the center for the study of slavery in charlston. welcome to both of you. let me start with lauren and the headline in this piece, this

uncovering of the artist known slave auction in the united states, explain what you were doing and what the project you were working on and how did you make this discovery? guest: is interned during graduate school at the center for slavery and i had been sitting in my room doing newspaper research in the archives at slave traders in charleston during that time period and stumbled across it. i had been doing that job for a few months and happened upon it. host: what did you come upon? guest: the sale of 600 people. i thought it might have been a misprint and i emailed dr. powers and we had a meeting and realized it was real. host: when you saw that number, the sale of a 600 enslaved

people, what was your first reaction? guest: shock but also knowing that these auctions happened in the past and knowing that the biggest time up till that was 426. it was jarring to me. host: professor powers, when you got that call, what was your first reaction? guest: was quite surprised because all along we thought the figure higher historians had uncovered a bit over 400 people was the record. and then to find out that south carolina, charleston in particular was on the much larger sale was really surprising. but also in keeping with other

characteristics that we know about in south carolina, i will mention a couple. charleston was the major center for the sale of africans during transatlantic slave trade and also the city of charleston in this time period when the 600 people were sold, charleston demonstrated a larger level of slaveholding along the might -- among the white families. about three quarters of all of the white families in charleston owned enslaved people during the decade of the 1830's. host: what is the significance of this find? guest: there are a number of significances is regard to the find. one of the things that both lauren and i were struck by was that there were no stories,

narrative stories, in the newspapers about this sale. that suggests how routine the sale of human beings were in the city of charleston and indeed throughout the south. the other thing about this location, and it is that we know the precise spot where the sale occurred. it is adjacent to a building that is known as the old exchange building. when george washington visits charleston in 1791, he is entertained in the old exchange building, where they celebrated america, independence, freedom and liberty.

yet decades later, just adjacent to the same building, 600 people would be sold off. so that connection between slavery and freedom is intimate and organic and this is just one of the most important examples of that connection in american history. host: lorne, have you gone to that spot scribe -- lauren, have you gone to that spot described in that? what do you think was happening? guest: absolutely. that is a very heavily trafficked spot and was the most popular tourist attraction. many walked past the spot every day. being there is a feeling of heaviness and heartbreak. it is not something to take

lightly. there is an historical marker that talked about the slave auctions but it doesn't talk about this one. host: bernard powers, can you describe what you think happened on that day when 600 enslaved people were sold? guest: well, it must have been an area that was very crowded with enslaved people waiting to be auctioned off with white purchasers who would have come from a variety of adjacent states to make their bids. one would have seen enslaved people trying to influence might purchase them, trying to be purchased by people they deemed

to be the most benevolent and humane. they would have been trying to keep their families together. but even so, perhaps many and even most would have failed to remain with family members and would have been sold off individually. he would have heard the screams and wailing of sorrowful black people who were separated from one another forever insofar as they knew at this time. so it would have been a very graphic scene and a very inhumane seen as people were commodified, sold off and separated, never to see the relatives again. host: help of -- with the help

of propublica. what did you learn? guest: winek about an estate where he passed away and they sold 600 people as well as other property from his estate. we learned that 100 of them were bought back and we are learning about their stories and that is the plan for future research. host: can you talk about that, bernard powers? what will you do with the discovery? guest: one of the things we hope to do is give a far greater voice to stories like this one.

think about -- the thing about charleston today is you can walk around the city and not see the evidence the tremendous role the city and its plantar class and merchants played in the trafficking in human beings. the center for the study of slavery in charleston is based on the kind of research that lauren and others have done to identify these important sites and to, where possible, mark them with plaques and to organize them into virtual tours that can be assessable around the world. people were interested in learning more about this subject which helps us to really uncover and to make public the important

role that a place like charleston has played in the institution of slavery and the slave trade in particular. host: what did you make of the connections made by pro publica the role of a and purchasing them? what was happening at this time? guest: it was an interesting story for ann ball, because most white women were not in the direct role that she decided to play as a slave owner and as a manager of enslaved people. she could have easily just simply allowed all of the property to be sold off, human as well as the land and property

to be sold off. that is not the decision she made. she wanted to be directly involved in slave ownership and management which was rather unusual for white women to take on. nevertheless, she was considered to be someone who was a very stringent disciplinarian, one who had the whip used on slaves that she owned very routinely. that story really indicates thar more white women played important roles in the system of slavery, and we need to find out more about that and learn who they were. host: oren, you announced -- lauren, you announce this discovery in your masters thesis.

how did that turn out for you? guest: very well. it was published on proquest and i passed my thesis and got my masters degree so it was a great launching pad and i hope to continue my research for a phd. host: you can find the thesis in the pro-public a article at pro publica.org. bernard powers, tell us the work of the center. guest: the center for the study of slavery in charleston is part of a consortium of universities over 90 strong. the consortium is known as the university studying slavery and we are involved in examining the role, historically, that the institution of slavery has played in our schools. this is one of the final frontiers yet to be investigated

and we not only look at the role of slavery, which ended in 1865 in the u.s., but we understand the institution of slavery had a long legacy that comes all the way down to us in the present time. our work includes the examination of the way in which race helped to shape higher education and the way in which our education was connected to racial issues throughout our various locations. there are seven universities in south carolina that are part of the consortium and we put on public programs and sponsor research that delves deeply into the institution of slavery and the role of race in higher education and the role of race

in our locations, so that people have a greater appreciation for the depth and the legacy that slavery and its consequences have had for the development of america and the present shape of our society today. host: before we let you go, you are also a board member of the international african-american museum which is set to open in charleston later this month. what can you tell us about this? guest: indeed, the public opening for the international african-american museum will be june 27. it is a project we have worked on for over 20 years. it is located on the cooper river early, the site for this museum is the wharf where in the

united states, when congress finally outlawed the atlantic slave trade it ended at this particular place in charleston, and this was the last major center for the transatlantic slave trade in the entire country. south carolina has played an outsized role in the history of race, slavery, the coming of the civil war, and there is a host of consequences that result from the black presence in south carolina. we explore those consequences having to do with slavery, race, emancipation, civil-rights, and we look at the implications

those have for the united states as a whole. wherever possible we look at the international connections that south carolina and race related issues has with not only the state but the nation. host: bernard powers, lauren devila, thank you both for spending time with us. guest: thanks for the opportunity. guest: thank you. host: fact open forum. olivia in birmingham, alabama. democratic caller. caller: i am so glad you put that on. i waited 15 minutes to hear that. i visited in 2017 and they have a lot of slave culture there. if you go in visit, i learned a lot. i even visited a plantation.

this young white woman was so educated about slave issues. they did a good job taking us over the plantation and showing us things that i do not even know and i'm a senior citizen. i want to say to the gentleman who said thank the republicans, we are not. first i give thanks to god for bringing me here as a free person, and i thank resident biden for signing juneteenth into law is a federal holiday. to nikki haley and tim scott, to dismiss what president obama said, that should not be dismissed. they wanted to take it out of context. this needs to be discussed. i am so proud and thankful that c-span has this forum on this morning.

thank you, greta. host: dave in texas. republican. good morning. caller: good morning. i really appreciate your show. it certainly enlightens me how democrats think. i have not heard one white democrat apologize for slavery. i have not heard any black person say thank you to the over 300,000 white men who died to free those black slaves. i am astonished. i realize we are focusing on slavery. my descendants are from scotland and ireland. we never owned slaves. host: dave in texas.

the previous caller mentioned tim scott and president obama. this is politico's headline. tim scott -- there is no higher compliment than being attacked by president obama. tim scott brushed off the comments the former made about his campaign, calling the former president remarks a complement. the former president criticized scott for comments he had made about race and racism in america , saying voters had a right to be skeptical of claims made by minority candidates that ignore the inequality that exists in the united states. there's long history of african-american or other minority candidates within the republican party who will validate america and say everything is right and we can make it, obama said during a conversation with democratic strategist david axelrod released last week.

we cannot just ignore all of that and pretend everything is equal and fair. we have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. if they are not doing that, and i think people are rightly skeptical, is what the former president said. freeport, louisiana. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to ask your guests if they have studied mcpherson ville just north of charleston. james mcpherson, who helped establish the oglethorpe community in georgia had a huge plantation in that area where he raised cattle and slaves. have you on across that in your research.

also have you run across the article about james as the indian fighter published in harper's magazine? thank you very much. host: our guest or not with us anymore but i encourage you to go to the center's website, the center for the study of slavery in charleston. if you go to their website i am sure you could find contact information if you want to pass along what you just said. ella in florida, republican. caller: good morning. i am really interested in the conversation we are having and i think what is really important to talk about is two years before the civil war ended on hilton head island, south carolina, the first freemen city was established in the slave owners fled out of atlanta and south carolina because of the

union troops. the slaves were left and they came to mitchell on hilton head island. he did not know what to do. he tried to get a hold of washington -- the leadership for the civil war, and ask what to do. he cannot get an answer. he made the decision he would free them and build the city. this was an important historical event where white men and union soldiers worked gather to build a city for the slaves. no one talks about that but i think it is an important story of the coming together in order to have the impact of freedom

for man. it started in south carolina. we need to talk about those stories. host: john in sacramento, california. democratic caller. open forum. what is on your mind. caller: so much on my mind and i cannot express it on this show because you don't give nobody maybe 30 seconds to say what they need to say. first of all, i need to say that as far as people thinking black people sold black people, that is totally wrong. black folks were sold by africans. black people were hebrew israelites that were sold by africans. africans in hebrew israelite shoes are not the same people. i am not an african. i am a hebrew israelite jew from

the tribe of judah and you people do not want to know this. that is why you're always hanging up on me. we need some israelites to start calling this show so we can let these people know what is going on. the bible can explain everything you need to know, especially about slavery. they told abraham that if we fail to follow god's rules he was going to send us to slavery again. we had already came out of slavery in egypt and he said he was going to send us to slavery again on ships this time. meeting when we get off the ships we will be sold to our enemies and that is exactly what happened to us. host: all right. alan in arkansas, independent caller. caller: i think the gentleman that was just on is referring to

ethiopia, which has a phenomenal history, a biblical history, and has this connection with slavery he is talking about. israel has denounced what he was just describing. they don't see the validity of that at all. i am spending my call on this issue because i wanted to call on the january 6 issue and the rest of this incredible deception going on with that. you got me on this one to call in just to say -- i am in arkansanan and arkansas has a phenomenal history. i have as many academic credentials as those other guests you had on earlier if we want to have a contest on that. just to say we had one primary plantation in arkansas called

the sunnyside plantation. i think there were over 1000 slaves at that look patient right on the mississippi river. the southern part of the state. one other near memphis. those were the two primary populated regions of slavery. the other southern states were like that. this was -- only the wealthiest people had slaves. we need to remember the rest of the united states was free. the northern states, the protestant states were all anti-slavery. pennsylvania, the rest of the northern states, all of the territories were slave free. united states needs to get credit for that. what we are talking about is the

english slavery, the catholic slavery, the catholic and spanish slaves systems being run in america. those catholic countries who we got independence from when we defeated the spent -- the french and the spanish and really the english. that is what separated slavery out of america. this gentleman that you had on earlier as a guest pushing this america connection as if we are the origin of the slave trade is outrageous. we freed slavery. we stopped at. host: i heard your point. i want to point something out quickly that you and others may be interested in. a piece by accused bidding writer from the times that wrote

my church was part of the slave trade. for more than a century catholic priest in maryland helped black people in bond. they were one of the largest slaveholders in the state and pray for people they held captive even as they enslaved their bodies. emancipated black families that had been torn apart and sales organized by the clergymen were confronted by a choice -- should they remain in the church that had betrayed them? over the past seven years i have pieced together avenue the -- i've pieced together the origin story of the american catholic church. i am a professor and journalist who writes about slavery and its legacy and i'm also a black woman and a practicing catholic. i considered the choices those families based in 1864 and i've found myself pondering my faith in my church and my own place in it. you can read that in today's new york times.

my church was part of the slave trade. this is not shaken my faith. when we come back, the university of texas austin peniel joseph joins us to discuss the history of juneteenth. ♪ >> c-span's campaign 2024 coverage is your front row seat to the presidential election. campaign 2024 on the c-span network. c-span. your unfiltered view of politics. >> since 1979, in partnership

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c-span's tv network and c-span radio app plus a variety of compelling podcast. he's been now is available at the apple store and google play. c-span now. your front row seat to washington, anytime, anywhere. >> "washington journal" continues. host: peniel joseph is with us, the director of the university of texas austin center for the study of race and democracy and the author of "the third reconstruction: american struggle for racial justice in the 21st century." today is juneteenth. remind our viewers why we call it juneteenth and its significance. guest: juneteenth refers to june 19, 1865 dissemination of general order number three by major general gordon granger,

who had arrived in the port of galveston two days earlier with 2000 union troops to support the dissemination of freedom. there were still battles being fought after the surrender of general robert e. lee to ulysses s grant in april 1865 at appomattox in virginia. there were still battles being fought as late as may of 1865 and june of 1865 in a state like texas. texas is the stronghold of a dying confederacy. what general order number three says is there will be absolute equality between blacks and whites in terms of property rights and civil rights. number two is that the free women and men should stay on their plantations and engage in labor contracts with those who

formerly presumed to own them. number three, it says black folks should not try to go to military camps or engage in any kind of idleness. black people looked to number one and the idea of absolute equality between blacks and whites. there were some people throughout texas come ended galveston, who fled the plantations then, who did go to military headquarters, where you could get provisions and food and find out about your family. there were others who stayed. certainly celebrations happened that day. there are also tragedies. we have remember major general gordon granger takes over a villa in galveston. he is surrounded by a very vengeful and fearful and anxious white society.

they were very fearful of what this idea of absolute equality meant. certainly by 1866 black people are formally celebrating juneteenth as emancipation day, as freedom day, as the true meaning of american democracy. those celebrations will continue to take place across the state of texas. we will see black folks who are buying land in houston, jack gates and reverend elias dibble, richard allen, richard bloch. they buy 10 acres of land which is now emancipation park. juneteenth becomes a way to celebrate and commemorate, but also there is something entrepreneurial about juneteenth , about organizing black folks, organizing black businesses, organizing the black vote. this is all connected to the idea of black citizenship and dignity. juneteenth becomes the nation's

real independence day because before juneteenth, as frederick douglass has said in a very famous 1862 address in rochester, new york, which has come to be known as "what to the slave is the fourth of july?" the fourth of july made a mockery of freedom and dignity and democracy because it celebrated out of lady marginalization of women and the mistreatment of chinese and asian americans and pacific islanders, mistreatment of people who are from mexico and spanish-speaking countries, but because of antebellum slavery. host: what does the juneteenth federal holiday do? what role does it play for inclusiveness of democracy? caller: -- guest: it is unbelievably important.

juneteenth is the first federal holiday since the dr. martin luther king jr. federal holiday in 1983 and is the first time united states of america has of knowledge did original sin of racial slavery. even before you can have an inclusive democracy you have to have a shared truth about that democracy. that is the battle, even when juneteenth first unfolded in 1865, we've been engaged in an almost 160 year narrative for between those who are supporters of multiracial democracy, and those are supporters of the lost cause and white supremacy and anti-black racism and the racial caste system who are redemption nests. what juneteenth provides is an inroads to build a consensus around an origin story of the country. there was an earlier caller it was saying racial slavery is something that i did states has ended.

this was british and spanish and the french fault, and then the person saying they have academic credentials. those kinds of things are ridiculous and they continue the falsehoods and the mythology. america is one of the biggest innovators of racial slavery globally. america is one of the deepest innovators of jim crow and white supremacy globally. those folks who are part of the confederate states of america wanted to create a global slave empire that stretched from mexico to central and south america. they wanted to annex and colonize mexico and brazil and central america. part of what we are trying to do with juneteenth is tell the origin story of the united states. we can tell that story when we look at the bitter and beautiful part of the struggle for dignity and citizenship without

constantly having to lie to ourselves and about ourselves. the lie is so big people are willing to go to war and commit acts of violence and great brutality in the name of this lie. host: june 19, 1865 k more than two years after the emancipation proclamation. what is happening in those years? guest: the emancipation proclamation is issued on january 1, 1863 by abraham lincoln that only touches on the states and rebellion and says those folks -- people who are enslaved africans and enslaved black americans are free. when you think about the two and a half years in between the emancipation proclamation and juneteenth, what we are seeing

is not only a massive civil war whereby 1863 black men and women are able to be a part of that war in different ways, over 200,000. we are also seeing the self emancipation of black folks throughout the south, who if they can gain access to military camp, they will be called contraband. these are human beings for some of the biggest heroes in american history. the union army in the president are calling them contraband. they provide huge information and logistics to the military. they provide intelligence and support. we talk about harriet tubman as a union spy. she was brilliant and iconic and heroic. there are thousands of unnamed black women and men who provided unbelievably important information to the union army in terms of logistics, in terms of

creating maps for them, connecting them to different supply chains. they are very important. the emancipation proclamation, these are words. the deeds to liberate black people came out of the black community. black people led the fight for radical political self-determination. black people were the most passionate and most eloquent and articulate abolitionists. they believed in what w.e.b. dubois called abolition democracy. not only do they want to permanently eradicate the system of racial slavery, but they wanted to build up new democratic systems that would allow all human beings to flourish. and a lot of maize when -- in a lot of ways when we think about the two years and five months between the emancipation proclamation and juneteenth, what we see as the united states

finally embracing multiracial democracy. it is important for us to remember it is at the cost of over 700,000 americans. that is how deep slavery runs through the dna of the united states. the economic system of capitalism, it's political systems, its religious system. some a people who were enslavers then and presumed to be enslavers now swore up and down they were christians. this is how black people were meant to be treated forever and ever. alexander stephens, the vice president of the confederacy said the cornerstone of our confederacy is slavery forever. these are things we should be teaching to all of our students. this is part of civics lessons and parts of democracy, so our students when they become older are not like oh my gosh, i

cannot believe slavery happened. we should be teaching that this is part of who we are. the reason we are not teaching it is ever since the end of the civil war we have been locked in a war to see what kind of story are we going to tell about that previous era of antebellum slavery and all of the years that have followed. if we tell the truth will have to create different policies, different legislation, different laws, we will have a different culture of belonging, we'll have to reimagine democracy and citizenship that people up until 2023 -- even with juneteenth as a federal holiday -- are hell-bent on dehumanizing black people, preventing black people from having the right to vote, banning the history of juneteenth and black stories. even my adopted home state of texas we have a governor who is doing this. governor desantis in florida is

a new a confederate. a brand-new confederate for the 21st century. the history of juneteenth, we are living it right now. anyone who thinks what with they have done during juneteenth of 1865 or during the second reconstruction of the 1950's and 1960's, we are living it. you do not have to pretend. we are living it right now. host: peniel joseph is our guest this morning. he will take your questions and comments on the history of juneteenth. republicans dial in (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000. independence (202) 748-8002 . texts as well. (202) 748-8003. christian birmingham once to know can you tell us more about opal lee and her significance regarding juneteenth. caller: opal lee is a texas

native who is 96 years old now. former schoolteacher turned activist whose own family had been burned out during juneteenth and her childhood. her family home was burned down because they moved into a previously all-white neighborhood. she has been called the godmother of juneteenth. i write about her in this issue of texas monthly magazine. opal lee did a walk for juneteenth to try to make juneteenth a federal holiday. her walk beginning in 2015, she continued to walk all around the nation and connected many strands of the juneteenth story together. we have juneteenth celebrations in houston and in places like austin and dallas, but we also have huge demonstrations in milwaukee, we have demonstrations in new york. we have demonstrations in

atlanta and los angeles. in a lot of ways what ms. opal lee did was magnify and amplify that story of juneteenth and she did it through her own personal biography, and in many ways, i talked about ms. opal lee and lawrence thomas whose family had been presumably owned by the founder of galveston. lawrence thomas and his daughter and his family went to the white house after president biden signed juneteenth into federal holiday. i think opal lee is hugely important and she helped personalize the story of juneteenth. there are tens of thousands of black folks who are long marchers who have celebrated juneteenth whose story is

usually imported even if they are not as iconic as opal lee. host: how did she and others commemorate the holiday. watch people do now that it is a federal holiday to market? guest: there are a lot of different ways to commemorate. there is a fantastic book by annette gordon reed, juneteenth, which looks at her childhood in texas. in texas there is a school named after professor annette gordon reed, one of the most esteemed historians and scholars in the world, talking about celebrating it with making homemade tamales and red soda and certain soul food that if you were black in texas had a zest to it as well. on some levels juneteenth is about getting together friends and family. it is also about faith. my friend and colleague at the university of texas has wonderful new film called

juneteenth: on faith and freedom that everyone should check out. what he does in that film is go through six different places in texas and look at how people have celebrated juneteenth, celebrating it with barbecue, celebrating it with black joy amidst the painful situation of bling locked in the belly of a nation that has refused to love black people back. there has also been political demonstrations and religious demonstrations. organizing for education. this idea of black political and cultural self-determination is intrinsically tied to juneteenth. when we think about how should people be commemorating juneteenth in 2023, a few things. this is the one hundred 60th anniversary of the emancipation proclamation. we need to know the story. the biggest threat to democracy besides climate change and racism is misinformation.

one of the reasons people have so much political and racial and religion and cultural division in the united states but also globally is misinformation. we do not have a shared truth and we do not have a shared reality. juneteenth provides as a context to say this is not a story of black people hearing the news about their freedom late. that is untrue. black people had heard about freedom. black folks working in the ports of galveston had known about how the civil war was going. they were unfree because they were locked in the belly of the beast of a dying confederate fort where they were armed to the teeth and preventing from leaving plantations. some still self emancipated. remember there are 200,000 enslaved black people brought to texas along the evolution of the civil war because you have in

slavers who are fleeing louisiana, who are fleeing georgia, and texas becomes -- texas, a big and beautiful but also at times forbidding and grotesque state. they put us black folks in texas as the last stronghold for their dying confederacy. we have to be able to celebrate and mourn and commemorate and teach and learn all at the same time. people can do both of those things simultaneously. the country has always had this duality. the dueling, the duality. the dueling dualities are abolition and slavery. the dueling dualities are freedom and bondage. the dueling to allergies are the

truth and the lies and the falsehoods that create the american reality. black people have always been at the leading edge of understanding that. we did not get the news late on juneteenth. juneteenth was when we could finally celebrate what we already knew, which as we had our inherent dignity and all citizenship is is the external recognition of something that is god-given and can never be taken away. host: gary is in stamford, connecticut. good morning. are you with us? caller: yes, i am with you. guest: go ahead. caller: to your guest, the problem we have in the united states is history. we keep throwing it away.

history is many things. in haiti -- for all slaves around the world. everywhere. the problem we have is nobody knows about that. history, we are supposed to tell our children so they did not make the mistakes they are making now. haiti helped the united states get their independence in 1775. nobody tells anything about georgia. where the fight went against the british. what we have to do is to let history speak. so we can help our kids learn

the way to progress in the future. i will take my answer off the line. host: peniel joseph. guest: gary is haitian and i am haitian and black american. he is referring to the battle of savannah where haitians helped american soldiers defeat the british in savannah, georgia. when we think about haiti, haiti is crucial. haiti goes to a colony of enslaved africans into being a republic of black citizens between 1791 and 1804. the french have the indemnity on haiti and they cripple haiti's economy for centuries. the united states unleashes an embargo against haiti by thomas jefferson, even though it is haiti that allows the united states to more than double in

size through the louisiana purchase in 1803 because napoleon is waging a losing war against haiti and trying to recall nice haiti. hades defeat of the british, they defeat the spanish, they defeat the french. the lesson of haiti is that when we think about the haitian revolution, it goes beyond emancipation. it is freedom beyond emancipation. it is freedom beyond what the french thought of, and also with united states thought of in the declaration of independence. whether you talk about the declaration of independence or the declaration of the rights of man, we know of things were illusory because they sanctioned and profited and exploited black people of the world over. they also wiped out indigenous populations the world over. they haitian revolution is, like

juneteenth, the western world's true emancipation date. january 1, 1804. i agree with the idea we need to teach this. we are trying to. when we think about the 6019 project and nicole hannah jones. the work about teaching for change. when you think about the work of the equal justice initiative and the slavery memorial. there are 70 different folks who are doing this work. it is a narrative war and that war takes on legislative components when we think about the weaponization, the critical race theory hoax and the banning of black history in dozens of states alongside the banning of voting rights, the banning of reproductive justice. we will have to struggle and fight for this. i would say this is the first time in american history that the juneteenth holiday connects to this in the wake of george

floyd, breonna taylor, so many black folks who have been murdered by law enforcement. we have more millions of people who are aware of at least parts of the story than any other time in our history. this is global. in 2020, 25 million people hit the streets when you look at the new york times analysis. there were more people who hit the streets globally in the united kingdom, in africa, in europe and asia in support of a movement for black lives in a movement for dignity and citizenship for all people. that struggle you're talking about is a real struggle. it is important to remember reconstructionists are engaged in that struggle. it is not just redemptions who want to rewrite history and who are advocates of the lost cause, birth of the nation, gone with the wind, those lies are being challenged in real time and that

is why the stakes are so high. that is why so many people in our country 160 years later are talking about things like civil war and violence. after juneteenth the only thing that prevented black people from fully engaging their citizenship rights and building up a black wealth that has been stolen from them and building up tremendous schools and churches -- they did this, but they did this in archipelagoes. the only thing that prevented us from really becoming self-determined people we are at a national level is violence. that is the only thing that prevented us. it was a systematic organized violence and aim of the lie of american exceptionalism is wanting to lie about that violence that happened. it is not just tulsa. it is memphis in 1866, new

orleans in 1856. it is the mississippi shotgun policy. it is the colfax, louisiana massacre. we were slaughtered systematically. right now in 2023 we still have people who want to live about the racial terror and the slaughter. we are caught in a sick vortex. that is why martin luther king, junior said the country was sick with the disease of racism. to all of the white supremacists and racists and elected officials and church leaders wanted to kill and murder king when he told them that, he said he was only the physician diagnosing the disease. he did not cause the illness. i will say the same thing. we are a sick society. sing that does not mean the black people acknowledging the disease because the disease because we did not cause the disease. this is not our problem. i will turn around what w.e.b.

dubois said in 1903. we are not the problem. black people are inherently not the problem. a nation that wants to commit crimes against black people and denies our god-given dignity and prevent us from accessing citizenship is the problem. host: lara is in spokane, washington. hi, laura. caller: the reason for my call, and i appreciate your interview, the reason for my call is that slavery has been a blight on humanity since the beginning of time. we had our very first black president is start the transit herein slave market with the muslim brotherhood and then reopen our borders so that children, and children by the tens of thousands to be used as slaves. that is true today with the open market.

our first lacked vice president sanctions and supports the slave market of children. 250,000 children. i am astounded. what i am getting is you may be of the marks ideology. i have to have an explanation as to why it is that that is ok with you people but anything that has to do with this country and its freedom is all racist. i am sorry. host: let's get a response. caller: i would say anytime you start with "you people" is a bad sign. it takes us out of this idea of being a beloved community and it becomes we are on opposite sides of humanity.

i would say when it comes to borders and this idea of slavery , certainly human trafficking is still going on in the 21st century. i think under the republican administration of donald trump that saw the separation of undocumented families that led to the death of children and led to the disunity of different families are trying to come to the united states for help all around the world. my final thoughts are when we think about borders and border control, one thing people have to be educated about his wire people coming to the united states and what is the united states foreign-policy's role in destabilizing the economic and political with terry regime of -- and -- the regime of

different nations come into the united states in seek of a. haiti is an example of what policy has been, but also a 20 year occupation of haiti in the first part of the 20th century that most americans do not know about. the u.s. brought and exported jim crow into haiti like it did into other places. these are facts. we live in a society right now where facts and reality they produce do not matter. what i would hope is we get to a point where we are not saying to each other "you people." we are all going to be one people in terms of humanity if we are going to survive all of the challenges we face. host: carolyn in vincent, ohio. caller: i just wanted to thank c-span, but also two specific

professors that took the time when i called, at least one of them, in his harvard office, to give me an idea of one book to help me understand everything. i don't know everything. he took the time, and i am shocked he did. i am a retired senior citizen, went to college, four year degree. i have learned more through c-span and these two professors helping me in addition to going on underground tours that are self driven. just thank you for having programs to help me learn because i was born and raised in columbus, ohio. i knew nothing. nothing about what i am hearing. host: what you're are hearing

this morning with our guest? caller: i've been listening to you all during covid. probably the time i called the professor and his college office was during covid. probably a couple years ago. greatly appreciated. host: what you hope people get out of this conversation this morning? guest: i hope people want to study and listen and learn. in terms of one book i would offer, i would say everything from the 6019 project -- the 1619 object. i would say to read the wilkes -- the works of bell hooks and michael eric dyson and cornell west. there is of a different folks i would say to read.

shout into the fire by donte stewart. there are many different books that will help you understand. my most recent book the third reconstruction deals with the reconstruction from juneteenth to the present. i think organizations like c-span are important in terms of providing unfiltered conversation where people can learn from one another. i hope that one book leads to many. how to be an antiracist. stamp from the beginning. there are so many different books you can learn from and different articles and different essays. hopefully that sparks you being in conversation with friends and family but also strangers.

part of what we have lost in our society is how to have civil discourse with people who disagree with each other and part of that has to do with we do not have a shared consensus on what historical facts that make up the truth are. host: i also want to get your reaction to the justice department's announcements last week on the findings of its investigation of the me apple is police department. i want to show our viewers what the attorney general had to say and get your reaction. >> since openly investigation the justice department has engaged in a comprehensive review of police policies, training, supervision, and investigations. our view focused on -- we observed many officers who did their difficult work with professionalism, courage, and respect. the patterns and practices we observed made what happened to

george floyd possible. as one city leader told us these systemic issues did not just occur on may 2020. there are instances being reported by the community long before that. the department of justice has concluded there is reasonable cause to believe the minneapolis police department and the city of minneapolis engaged in the pattern or practice of conduct that violates the first and forced -- the first and fourth amendment's the united states constitution. there is also reasonable cause to believe they engaged in contact that violates title vi of the civil rights act of 1964, the safe streets act, the americans with disabilities act. specifically, we found that mpd and the city of minneapolis is engages in a pattern or practice of using excessive force,

unlawfully discriminating against black and native american people in enforcement activities, violating the rights of people engaged in protected speech, and discriminating against people with behavioral disabilities, and responding to them -- when responding to them in crisis. host: peniel joseph, the attorney general on what happened in me apple us. your reaction -- in minneapolis. caller: i think it is -- guest: i think it is a strong case for why people talk about abolition with respect to law enforcement and reimagining public safety. this goes beyond -- in 2020 people talk about defunding the police and that became a very controversial slogan because people say what you mean by that? what you see with this report is we have law enforcement and criminal justice system that is impossible to reform because it is doing the job it was meant to

do. these discriminatory practices, this kind of terror, these deaths are what it was intended to do. it is fulfilling its mission and its mandate. there is no way to tinker around the edges with that. in a lot of ways history is important. we have had a long history of books and scholarship and memoirs that talk about what happened in minneapolis that goes back to juneteenth when we think about the convict lease system and the way black people were arrested and placed in labor camps and placed in turpentine mines and lumber camps and private industry paid local municipalities pennies on the dollar for their labor and hundreds of thousands of black people were dead within years, sexually exploited.

that disgusting part of our history has only amplified the over 2 million people in prison, and 70 people have been killed, more so than we have any legitimate count for. it reminds me of the 1964 freedom summer when law enforcement went looking for the bodies of two jewish civil rights activists who were murdered outside of philadelphia and mississippi on june 21, 1964. they found the torsos and the heads of at least eight different unidentified black people when they drag rivers in mississippi. we have no idea how many people were actually murdered during the civil rights movement. we have no idea how many people were murdered and killed and lynched, not just lynched, but

killed quietly during the juneteenth reconstruction era. right now we have no idea how may people law enforcement has killed and continues to kill. we are depending on the institution that is murdering people to give us transparency and accountability. that makes absolutely no sense. i applaud the justice department. i also think it speaks to the larger issue of what we mean by freedom, dignity, citizenship, and democracy, and how we can get to a truly abolitionist viewpoint in this country. by abolition, those who are called to the abolition of the slave trade were called to something bigger. there were calls for abolition democracy because they realized a society that can enslave 4 million people has something deeply wrong with it. that is why. they were correct. they were not wrong.

we are still in that struggle. why are we doing this? we will not ever be able to stop until we have a credible story, a unifying story of why did we do this and how can we stop? the justice department, this is great thing minneapolis patterns and practices, but how can we stop minneapolis from doing that? that is the next question. it is a federal law, is the local law, or is it re-conceiving what justice actually looks like, what does public safety mean, what does restorative justice mean for communities across the united statesthe idea of freedom beyond emancipation is what -- is what those who were coming out of juneteenth looking for then and what we are still looking for now. host: you can also follow him,

read his book, excuse me. the book is the third reconstruction, america struggles for race -- racial justice in the 21st century. thank you for joining us. guest: thanks, i enjoyed it. host: thank you for watching "washington journal" and enjoy the rest of your day. ♪ >> today, activists and advocates join the poor people's campaign to discuss poverty and hunger in america. live coverage of the summit begins at 11:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. you can watch on our mobile video app, c-span now or online

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