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you can listen on the free c-span now mobile video app or wherever you get our -- your podcasts or on our website. host: peniel joseph is with us, the director of the university of texas austin center for the study of race and democracy and the author of "the third reconstruction: american struggle for racial justice in the 21st century." today is juneteenth. remind our viewers why we call it juneteenth and its significance. guest: juneteenth refers to june 19, 1865 dissemination of general order number three by major general gordon granger, who had arrived in the port of galveston two days earlier with 2000 union troops to support the

dissemination of freedom. there were still battles being fought after the surrender of general robert e. lee to ulysses s grant in april 1865 at appomattox in virginia. there were still battles being fought as late as may of 1865 and june of 1865 in a state like texas. texas is the stronghold of a dying confederacy. what general order number three says is there will be absolute equality between blacks and whites in terms of property rights and civil rights. number two is that the free women and men should stay on their plantations and engage in labor contracts with those who formerly presumed to own them. number three, it says black folks should not try to go to

military camps or engage in any kind of idleness. black people looked to number one and the idea of absolute equality between blacks and whites. there were some people throughout texas come ended galveston, who fled the plantations then, who did go to military headquarters, where you could get provisions and food and find out about your family. there were others who stayed. certainly celebrations happened that day. there are also tragedies. we have remember major general gordon granger takes over a villa in galveston. he is surrounded by a very vengeful and fearful and anxious white society. they were very fearful of what this idea of absolute equality meant. certainly by 1866 black people

are formally celebrating juneteenth as emancipation day, as freedom day, as the true meaning of american democracy. those celebrations will continue to take place across the state of texas. we will see black folks who are buying land in houston, jack gates and reverend elias dibble, richard allen, richard bloch. they buy 10 acres of land which is now emancipation park. juneteenth becomes a way to celebrate and commemorate, but also there is something entrepreneurial about juneteenth , about organizing black folks, organizing black businesses, organizing the black vote. this is all connected to the idea of black citizenship and dignity. juneteenth becomes the nation's real independence day because before juneteenth, as frederick douglass has said in a very famous 1862 address in

rochester, new york, which has come to be known as "what to the slave is the fourth of july?" the fourth of july made a mockery of freedom and dignity and democracy because it celebrated out of lady marginalization of women and the mistreatment of chinese and asian americans and pacific islanders, mistreatment of people who are from mexico and spanish-speaking countries, but because of antebellum slavery. host: what does the juneteenth federal holiday do? what role does it play for inclusiveness of democracy? caller: -- guest: it is unbelievably important. juneteenth is the first federal holiday since the dr. martin luther king jr. federal holiday in 1983 and is the first time united states of america has of

knowledge did original sin of racial slavery. even before you can have an inclusive democracy you have to have a shared truth about that democracy. that is the battle, even when juneteenth first unfolded in 1865, we've been engaged in an almost 160 year narrative for between those who are supporters of multiracial democracy, and those are supporters of the lost cause and white supremacy and anti-black racism and the racial caste system who are redemption nests. what juneteenth provides is an inroads to build a consensus around an origin story of the country. there was an earlier caller it was saying racial slavery is something that i did states has ended. this was british and spanish and the french fault, and then the person saying they have academic credentials.

those kinds of things are ridiculous and they continue the falsehoods and the mythology. america is one of the biggest innovators of racial slavery globally. america is one of the deepest innovators of jim crow and white supremacy globally. those folks who are part of the confederate states of america wanted to create a global slave empire that stretched from mexico to central and south america. they wanted to annex and colonize mexico and brazil and central america. part of what we are trying to do with juneteenth is tell the origin story of the united states. we can tell that story when we look at the bitter and beautiful part of the struggle for dignity and citizenship without constantly having to lie to ourselves and about ourselves. the lie is so big people are

willing to go to war and commit acts of violence and great brutality in the name of this lie. host: june 19, 1865 k more than two years after the emancipation proclamation. what is happening in those years? guest: the emancipation proclamation is issued on january 1, 1863 by abraham lincoln that only touches on the states and rebellion and says those folks -- people who are enslaved africans and enslaved black americans are free. when you think about the two and a half years in between the emancipation proclamation and juneteenth, what we are seeing is not only a massive civil war whereby 1863 black men and women

are able to be a part of that war in different ways, over 200,000. we are also seeing the self emancipation of black folks throughout the south, who if they can gain access to military camp, they will be called contraband. these are human beings for some of the biggest heroes in american history. the union army in the president are calling them contraband. they provide huge information and logistics to the military. they provide intelligence and support. we talk about harriet tubman as a union spy. she was brilliant and iconic and heroic. there are thousands of unnamed black women and men who provided unbelievably important information to the union army in terms of logistics, in terms of creating maps for them, connecting them to different supply chains. they are very important.

the emancipation proclamation, these are words. the deeds to liberate black people came out of the black community. black people led the fight for radical political self-determination. black people were the most passionate and most eloquent and articulate abolitionists. they believed in what w.e.b. dubois called abolition democracy. not only do they want to permanently eradicate the system of racial slavery, but they wanted to build up new democratic systems that would allow all human beings to flourish. and a lot of maize when -- in a lot of ways when we think about the two years and five months between the emancipation proclamation and juneteenth, what we see as the united states finally embracing multiracial democracy. it is important for us to remember it is at the cost of

over 700,000 americans. that is how deep slavery runs through the dna of the united states. the economic system of capitalism, it's political systems, its religious system. some a people who were enslavers then and presumed to be enslavers now swore up and down they were christians. this is how black people were meant to be treated forever and ever. alexander stephens, the vice president of the confederacy said the cornerstone of our confederacy is slavery forever. these are things we should be teaching to all of our students. this is part of civics lessons and parts of democracy, so our students when they become older are not like oh my gosh, i cannot believe slavery happened. we should be teaching that this is part of who we are.

the reason we are not teaching it is ever since the end of the civil war we have been locked in a war to see what kind of story are we going to tell about that previous era of antebellum slavery and all of the years that have followed. if we tell the truth will have to create different policies, different legislation, different laws, we will have a different culture of belonging, we'll have to reimagine democracy and citizenship that people up until 2023 -- even with juneteenth as a federal holiday -- are hell-bent on dehumanizing black people, preventing black people from having the right to vote, banning the history of juneteenth and black stories. even my adopted home state of texas we have a governor who is doing this. governor desantis in florida is a new a confederate. a brand-new confederate for the 21st century.

the history of juneteenth, we are living it right now. anyone who thinks what with they have done during juneteenth of 1865 or during the second reconstruction of the 1950's and 1960's, we are living it. you do not have to pretend. we are living it right now. host: peniel joseph is our guest this morning. he will take your questions and comments on the history of juneteenth. republicans dial in (202) 748-8001, democrats (202) 748-8000. independence (202) 748-8002 . texts as well. (202) 748-8003. christian birmingham once to know can you tell us more about opal lee and her significance regarding juneteenth. caller: opal lee is a texas native who is 96 years old now. former schoolteacher turned activist whose own family had

been burned out during juneteenth and her childhood. her family home was burned down because they moved into a previously all-white neighborhood. she has been called the godmother of juneteenth. i write about her in this issue of texas monthly magazine. opal lee did a walk for juneteenth to try to make juneteenth a federal holiday. her walk beginning in 2015, she continued to walk all around the nation and connected many strands of the juneteenth story together. we have juneteenth celebrations in houston and in places like austin and dallas, but we also have huge demonstrations in milwaukee, we have demonstrations in new york. we have demonstrations in atlanta and los angeles. in a lot of ways what ms. opal lee did was magnify and amplify

that story of juneteenth and she did it through her own personal biography, and in many ways, i talked about ms. opal lee and lawrence thomas whose family had been presumably owned by the founder of galveston. lawrence thomas and his daughter and his family went to the white house after president biden signed juneteenth into federal holiday. i think opal lee is hugely important and she helped personalize the story of juneteenth. there are tens of thousands of black folks who are long marchers who have celebrated juneteenth whose story is usually imported even if they are not as iconic as opal lee. host: how did she and others

commemorate the holiday. watch people do now that it is a federal holiday to market? guest: there are a lot of different ways to commemorate. there is a fantastic book by annette gordon reed, juneteenth, which looks at her childhood in texas. in texas there is a school named after professor annette gordon reed, one of the most esteemed historians and scholars in the world, talking about celebrating it with making homemade tamales and red soda and certain soul food that if you were black in texas had a zest to it as well. on some levels juneteenth is about getting together friends and family. it is also about faith. my friend and colleague at the university of texas has wonderful new film called juneteenth: on faith and freedom that everyone should check out. what he does in that film is go

through six different places in texas and look at how people have celebrated juneteenth, celebrating it with barbecue, celebrating it with black joy amidst the painful situation of bling locked in the belly of a nation that has refused to love black people back. there has also been political demonstrations and religious demonstrations. organizing for education. this idea of black political and cultural self-determination is intrinsically tied to juneteenth. when we think about how should people be commemorating juneteenth in 2023, a few things. this is the one hundred 60th anniversary of the emancipation proclamation. we need to know the story. the biggest threat to democracy besides climate change and racism is misinformation. one of the reasons people have so much political and racial and religion and cultural division

in the united states but also globally is misinformation. we do not have a shared truth and we do not have a shared reality. juneteenth provides as a context to say this is not a story of black people hearing the news about their freedom late. that is untrue. black people had heard about freedom. black folks working in the ports of galveston had known about how the civil war was going. they were unfree because they were locked in the belly of the beast of a dying confederate fort where they were armed to the teeth and preventing from leaving plantations. some still self emancipated. remember there are 200,000 enslaved black people brought to texas along the evolution of the civil war because you have in slavers who are fleeing louisiana, who are fleeing georgia, and texas becomes --

texas, a big and beautiful but also at times forbidding and grotesque state. they put us black folks in texas as the last stronghold for their dying confederacy. we have to be able to celebrate and mourn and commemorate and teach and learn all at the same time. people can do both of those things simultaneously. the country has always had this duality. the dueling, the duality. the dueling dualities are abolition and slavery. the dueling dualities are freedom and bondage. the dueling to allergies are the truth and the lies and the falsehoods that create the american reality. black people have always been at

the leading edge of understanding that. we did not get the news late on juneteenth. juneteenth was when we could finally celebrate what we already knew, which as we had our inherent dignity and all citizenship is is the external recognition of something that is god-given and can never be taken away. host: gary is in stamford, connecticut. good morning. are you with us? caller: yes, i am with you. guest: go ahead. caller: to your guest, the problem we have in the united states is history. we keep throwing it away. history is many things.

in haiti -- for all slaves around the world. everywhere. the problem we have is nobody knows about that. history, we are supposed to tell our children so they did not make the mistakes they are making now. haiti helped the united states get their independence in 1775. nobody tells anything about georgia. where the fight went against the british. what we have to do is to let history speak. so we can help our kids learn the way to progress in the future. i will take my answer off the line. host: peniel joseph.

guest: gary is haitian and i am haitian and black american. he is referring to the battle of savannah where haitians helped american soldiers defeat the british in savannah, georgia. when we think about haiti, haiti is crucial. haiti goes to a colony of enslaved africans into being a republic of black citizens between 1791 and 1804. the french have the indemnity on haiti and they cripple haiti's economy for centuries. the united states unleashes an embargo against haiti by thomas jefferson, even though it is haiti that allows the united states to more than double in size through the louisiana purchase in 1803 because napoleon is waging a losing war against haiti and trying to

recall nice haiti. hades defeat of the british, they defeat the spanish, they defeat the french. the lesson of haiti is that when we think about the haitian revolution, it goes beyond emancipation. it is freedom beyond emancipation. it is freedom beyond what the french thought of, and also with united states thought of in the declaration of independence. whether you talk about the declaration of independence or the declaration of the rights of man, we know of things were illusory because they sanctioned and profited and exploited black people of the world over. they also wiped out indigenous populations the world over. they haitian revolution is, like juneteenth, the western world's true emancipation date. january 1, 1804.

i agree with the idea we need to teach this. we are trying to. when we think about the 6019 project and nicole hannah jones. the work about teaching for change. when you think about the work of the equal justice initiative and the slavery memorial. there are 70 different folks who are doing this work. it is a narrative war and that war takes on legislative components when we think about the weaponization, the critical race theory hoax and the banning of black history in dozens of states alongside the banning of voting rights, the banning of reproductive justice. we will have to struggle and fight for this. i would say this is the first time in american history that the juneteenth holiday connects to this in the wake of george floyd, breonna taylor, so many black folks who have been murdered by law enforcement.

we have more millions of people who are aware of at least parts of the story than any other time in our history. this is global. in 2020, 25 million people hit the streets when you look at the new york times analysis. there were more people who hit the streets globally in the united kingdom, in africa, in europe and asia in support of a movement for black lives in a movement for dignity and citizenship for all people. that struggle you're talking about is a real struggle. it is important to remember reconstructionists are engaged in that struggle. it is not just redemptions who want to rewrite history and who are advocates of the lost cause, birth of the nation, gone with the wind, those lies are being challenged in real time and that is why the stakes are so high. that is why so many people in our country 160 years later are

talking about things like civil war and violence. after juneteenth the only thing that prevented black people from fully engaging their citizenship rights and building up a black wealth that has been stolen from them and building up tremendous schools and churches -- they did this, but they did this in archipelagoes. the only thing that prevented us from really becoming self-determined people we are at a national level is violence. that is the only thing that prevented us. it was a systematic organized violence and aim of the lie of american exceptionalism is wanting to lie about that violence that happened. it is not just tulsa. it is memphis in 1866, new orleans in 1856. it is the mississippi shotgun policy.

it is the colfax, louisiana massacre. we were slaughtered systematically. right now in 2023 we still have people who want to live about the racial terror and the slaughter. we are caught in a sick vortex. that is why martin luther king, junior said the country was sick with the disease of racism. to all of the white supremacists and racists and elected officials and church leaders wanted to kill and murder king when he told them that, he said he was only the physician diagnosing the disease. he did not cause the illness. i will say the same thing. we are a sick society. sing that does not mean the black people acknowledging the disease because the disease because we did not cause the disease. this is not our problem. i will turn around what w.e.b. dubois said in 1903. we are not the problem.

black people are inherently not the problem. a nation that wants to commit crimes against black people and denies our god-given dignity and prevent us from accessing citizenship is the problem. host: lara is in spokane, washington. hi, laura. caller: the reason for my call, and i appreciate your interview, the reason for my call is that slavery has been a blight on humanity since the beginning of time. we had our very first black president is start the transit herein slave market with the muslim brotherhood and then reopen our borders so that children, and children by the tens of thousands to be used as slaves. that is true today with the open market. our first lacked vice president sanctions and supports the slave market of children.

250,000 children. i am astounded. what i am getting is you may be of the marks ideology. i have to have an explanation as to why it is that that is ok with you people but anything that has to do with this country and its freedom is all racist. i am sorry. host: let's get a response. caller: i would say anytime you start with "you people" is a bad sign. it takes us out of this idea of being a beloved community and it becomes we are on opposite sides of humanity. i would say when it comes to borders and this idea of slavery , certainly human trafficking is

still going on in the 21st century. i think under the republican administration of donald trump that saw the separation of undocumented families that led to the death of children and led to the disunity of different families are trying to come to the united states for help all around the world. my final thoughts are when we think about borders and border control, one thing people have to be educated about his wire people coming to the united states and what is the united states foreign-policy's role in destabilizing the economic and political with terry regime of -- and -- the regime of different nations come into the united states in seek of a. haiti is an example of what

policy has been, but also a 20 year occupation of haiti in the first part of the 20th century that most americans do not know about. the u.s. brought and exported jim crow into haiti like it did into other places. these are facts. we live in a society right now where facts and reality they produce do not matter. what i would hope is we get to a point where we are not saying to each other "you people." we are all going to be one people in terms of humanity if we are going to survive all of the challenges we face. host: carolyn in vincent, ohio. caller: i just wanted to thank c-span, but also two specific professors that took the time when i called, at least one of them, in his harvard office, to

give me an idea of one book to help me understand everything. i don't know everything. he took the time, and i am shocked he did. i am a retired senior citizen, went to college, four year degree. i have learned more through c-span and these two professors helping me in addition to going on underground tours that are self driven. just thank you for having programs to help me learn because i was born and raised in columbus, ohio. i knew nothing. nothing about what i am hearing. host: what you're are hearing this morning with our guest? caller: i've been listening to you all during covid.

probably the time i called the professor and his college office was during covid. probably a couple years ago. greatly appreciated. host: what you hope people get out of this conversation this morning? guest: i hope people want to study and listen and learn. in terms of one book i would offer, i would say everything from the 6019 project -- the 1619 object. i would say to read the wilkes -- the works of bell hooks and michael eric dyson and cornell west. there is of a different folks i would say to read. shout into the fire by donte stewart. there are many different books

that will help you understand. my most recent book the third reconstruction deals with the reconstruction from juneteenth to the present. i think organizations like c-span are important in terms of providing unfiltered conversation where people can learn from one another. i hope that one book leads to many. how to be an antiracist. stamp from the beginning. there are so many different books you can learn from and different articles and different essays. hopefully that sparks you being in conversation with friends and family but also strangers. part of what we have lost in our society is how to have civil

discourse with people who disagree with each other and part of that has to do with we do not have a shared consensus on what historical facts that make up the truth are. host: i also want to get your reaction to the justice department's announcements last week on the findings of its investigation of the me apple is police department. i want to show our viewers what the attorney general had to say and get your reaction. >> since openly investigation the justice department has engaged in a comprehensive review of police policies, training, supervision, and investigations. our view focused on -- we observed many officers who did their difficult work with professionalism, courage, and respect. the patterns and practices we observed made what happened to george floyd possible. as one city leader told us these

systemic issues did not just occur on may 2020. there are instances being reported by the community long before that. the department of justice has concluded there is reasonable cause to believe the minneapolis police department and the city of minneapolis engaged in the pattern or practice of conduct that violates the first and forced -- the first and fourth amendment's the united states constitution. there is also reasonable cause to believe they engaged in contact that violates title vi of the civil rights act of 1964, the safe streets act, the americans with disabilities act. specifically, we found that mpd and the city of minneapolis is engages in a pattern or practice of using excessive force, unlawfully discriminating against black and native american people in enforcement activities, violating the rights of people engaged in protected

speech, and discriminating against people with behavioral disabilities, and responding to them -- when responding to them in crisis. host: peniel joseph, the attorney general on what happened in me apple us. your reaction -- in minneapolis. caller: i think it is -- guest: i think it is a strong case for why people talk about abolition with respect to law enforcement and reimagining public safety. this goes beyond -- in 2020 people talk about defunding the police and that became a very controversial slogan because people say what you mean by that? what you see with this report is we have law enforcement and criminal justice system that is impossible to reform because it is doing the job it was meant to do. these discriminatory practices, this kind of terror, these

deaths are what it was intended to do. it is fulfilling its mission and its mandate. there is no way to tinker around the edges with that. in a lot of ways history is important. we have had a long history of books and scholarship and memoirs that talk about what happened in minneapolis that goes back to juneteenth when we think about the convict lease system and the way black people were arrested and placed in labor camps and placed in turpentine mines and lumber camps and private industry paid local municipalities pennies on the dollar for their labor and hundreds of thousands of black people were dead within years, sexually exploited. that disgusting part of our history has only amplified the

over 2 million people in prison, and 70 people have been killed, more so than we have any legitimate count for. it reminds me of the 1964 freedom summer when law enforcement went looking for the bodies of two jewish civil rights activists who were murdered outside of philadelphia and mississippi on june 21, 1964. they found the torsos and the heads of at least eight different unidentified black people when they drag rivers in mississippi. we have no idea how many people were actually murdered during the civil rights movement. we have no idea how many people were murdered and killed and lynched, not just lynched, but killed quietly during the juneteenth reconstruction era. right now we have no idea how may people law enforcement has

killed and continues to kill. we are depending on the institution that is murdering people to give us transparency and accountability. that makes absolutely no sense. i applaud the justice department. i also think it speaks to the larger issue of what we mean by freedom, dignity, citizenship, and democracy, and how we can get to a truly abolitionist viewpoint in this country. by abolition, those who are called to the abolition of the slave trade were called to something bigger. there were calls for abolition democracy because they realized a society that can enslave 4 million people has something deeply wrong with it. that is why. they were correct. they were not wrong. we are still in that struggle. why are we doing this? we will not ever be able to stop

until we have a credible story, a unifying story of why did we do this and how can we stop? the justice department, this is great thing minneapolis patterns and practices, but how can we stop minneapolis from doing that? that is the next question. it is a federal law, is the local law, or is it re-conceiving what justice actually looks like, what does public safety mean, what does restorative justice mean for communities across the united statesthe idea of freedom beyond emancipation is what -- is what those who were coming out of juneteenth looking for then and what we are still looking for now. host: you can also follow him, read his book, excuse me. the book is the third reconstruction, america

struggles for race >> c-span is washington journal. a live forum addressing the latest issues of politics and public policy from washington, d.c. to across the country. tuesday more sing, george mason university's jamil jaffer talks about the federal indictment of former president trump and the legal issues involving the classified documents in the case. and then daniel goldenberg discusses the presidential candidates. and lisa hamilton, president and ceo of annie e casey foundation talks about the cost and lack of child care. c-span's washington journal, going in the conversation live on c-span, c-span now or online at c-span.org.

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