>> you have a new book out

called first family, washington's heirs and the making of america. i wanted to start our conversation with a painting that appears on the cov o your book. something you say was hanging on the wall o thousands of early ans homes. wainon we know washildless but who are the young people in thisnting? >> there are two children inhe the boy is george washington and i will refer to them as wash. theswe martha's grandcn by her first marriage, the george washington part stepgrandchildren. >> how did they come to live

with them? >> they were sort of defective adopted. there is not a legal right to adopt them at this point. they were referred to as george washington's adopted chdren. what happened was their father and married very young. he and his wife had seven children very quickly. then jackie decided to go down to yorktown. that was during the revolution to contribute to the cause. he leaves his young widow there. partially because marcia loves children and partially to help the widowed mother of four at the time they are toddlers and infants and end up raising them for the rest of their lives. >> what happened to the other two children?

>> elizabeth and martha or eliza and patty, they stayed with her mother. they do spend a lot of time there. they spend some time in the president's house during the presidency. they are also known as part of the family at this point. they are living with their mother who very soon remarries a man named david stewart and then their mother and stepfather have a bunch more children. they are living in a house full of half siblings and they are living in relative rural isolation. things are a bit more difficult for them and the mother worries then had the same kind of advantages that nellie and wash have because of other with george and marcia. and then living in philadelphia with all the educational advantages they have. >> such an interesting sect. this is the site of today's

washington reagan national airport. that is kind of hard to imagine. if you visited the airport today, wld you see any signs of it? >> you have to go outside the airport around one of parking lot. there is an historic marker for the foundation of the house. that was the house they lived in in the 18th century. they don't live that long. that was a working plantation and then they also had land just north of that that becomes what we know today as arlington cemetery. >> another piece of information in here is that the fact that george washington was childless was a key factor in his election as president. how did that work? >> i think people at the time were obviously rejecting monarchy as part of the revolution, part of what they decided make sense. it does not make sense to have the monarchy.

you should have people in power who are qualified and did not just inherit that position. how are we going to keep up the system of a presidency? if the president had children, biological children, there is a big focus on biological children. the fact that he had adopted children, people see different. the idea is this is a benefit, there are no biological children they could try to take over his place in power. if washington had biological children, the normal practice of monarchy is for the children of monarchs to marry other monarchs children to create diplomatic alliances. at least europeans may have wanted to make that happen if george washington had biological children.

and they also comforted people in this new experiment in the democratic republic. that the president does not have a biological child that could take over him. but how does the story of washington's extended family interest you in ff you spent 10 years researching it? >> it had been a lot of research process. i actually came across people in this book while i was working on my first book and really my dissertation in graduate school in pennsylvania. i was writing about french ups between men and women and i came across eliza and nellie costas. as well as george washington's nephew. and i had not heard of these people before. i knew george washington did not have any biological children and then to find that in fact he had this nephew who inherited mount vernon and then he had grandchildren or stepgrandchildren that he helped to raise and there were the next generation of his family, i was really fascinated by that.

we talk about the importance that washington was a president and not a king in many ways he was treated like a king. they celebrated his birthday. there are still some sort of trappings of loyalty there. what will it be like for the next generation? >> i assume there was a biography of them. i looked. they cover various parts of washington's family. there was nothing comprehensive. so i start off this project thinking these are not direct biological descendants but people say who are you writing about? and at first i wasn't sure. he became clear that while there were many nieces and nephews, people who inherited mount vernon, those people did not go around distilling themselves as washington's heirs. in the next generation of the

family. they were related to martha but not george. it was these four children who basically made careers out of being george washington family and certainly tharait that we start off with helped. it was always the younger two children that are in lots of people's homes and that portrait already. people know who they are. the nieces and nephews don't really have that. i just found the continual striving to be the keepers of george washington's legacy. it is almost funny what they are doing were ridiculous but he really intrigued me and it kept me digging for papers,, sources. request did you see any parallels between the grandchildren and today's social media influencers? >> it is interesting because i often talk about them as being

like the kardashianse sense that they are famous for being famous. they are not famous because they have any particular talent. i am not trying to say that no influencers or people at the kardashians have any talent but at certain points, does love you kind of carries on on its own and because of the family name. they are sort of using -- they also know they can use the media in different ways that now but if they give a speech or a gift to somebody that is a washington relic, they will send that information to the newspaper and they know the newspapers will report on it and get their names in the news. they are crafting their identity as washington's family and keeping themselves as celebrities. >> what was the state of the newspaper industry? >> there are a lot of small local newspapers and in fact by

the 19th century there were a lot more newspapers than there are today. in most cities, the two political parties have their own newspapers and then there might be additional papers after the 1830's. you get an explosion of newspapers. what they're doing is just reprinting stories from other papers. it is not that you are getting original reporting on them. all over the country, you are getting the same store repeated over and over again. sometimes over the course of months and years in multiple newspapers. they get passed around sometimes in small communities, red and coffee houses and people are very attuned to reading the news and following these newspapers. >> in the early chapters of the book, we see a lot of george and martha themselves. i found it interesting. a lot of them are paintings or

sculptures. you axley show them grandparents. what kind of grandparents were they? >> it was interesting. george and martha were very different as grandparents because george when the kids are younger is more hands-off and leaving things to martha because when they first adopt them, they are still finishing up the american revolution. partially at times they are saying the tradition of women raising younger children and then men getting involved. especially when it comes to their education. so indoors starts getting involved, we see him getting frustrated. we see him as a disciplinarian. we see the same thing with washington's father, jackie. he is worse of a student that his father, he dropped out of multiple schools. he is trying over and over again to persuade him to pay more attention to his studies, to work harder, to stay in school.

you see that side of george trying to be a disciplinarian and being really frustrated. the girls especially as they get older. and he has given them courtship advice. he tailors his courtship advice to each of the granddaughters. nellie will be a spinster for life. he says you can control if you're going to fall in love and that can happen. here is what we need to think about. we can see the heart of disciplinary inside of him as a grandfather or father figure and then the softer side that i think we don't usually think about with george washington. >> martha is the grandmother. you say she was beyond doting and sometimes people were concerned about her involvement level in their lives. ? it is very driven by the fact that she has had so much loss in her life. she is it -- loses two of her

four children with her first husband and then those two children that survived, one of them were post to adulthood. she loses her first husband and then she loses her son jackie. she is obsessively worried about the health of the children and wants to pamper them. other members of the family say that she is way too indulgent. she is not setting any boundaries. they are going to become insufferable, basically. the tutor of the kid is particularly concerned about this. part of what he sees is having people waiting on this young boy , he is already a master of enslaved people and that is going to his head. george washington was pained to

see that the kids were not being disciplined enough but didn't want to interfere with martha because it would upset her. that is a different picture of martha. quick did you get any sense with all of the papers and other people describing whether or not they were difficult personalities? >> i think you could describe all four of the grandchildren as well personalities in their own ways. they grow up with so much privilege. we don't know how much of this is martha's fault. it was a trope of the time. there is the fact that the children of the founding generation often ended up like this. not successful. they had such heavy expectations placed on them. they were supposed to be independent and self guided but there were also supposed to do what their parents wanted. they could never live up to the expectation of that down

degeneration. so we see people like dolly madison's son. his name was pain. he is a gambler who racks up huge debt. part of what is happening with them is not that unusual. it is not clear how much of that is because of martha. she does have a son and a grandson, two boys in a row that are just unable to finish school , really don't commit themselves to public service and the way that george washington would have wanted. doesn't come close to beating george washington's standards. how much of that is george washington's fall? hard to know. >> in 1787 went george washington was elected president, what was the family reaction? >> when george finds out he is going to be president, they kind of knew this for a while.

from the beginning of the constitutional convention, george washington is in mind. when they get the official word, the families upset. martha does not want to have to leave mount vernon. doris doesn't want to have to leave. he was happy to be back home. he feels like he has to serve and the younger kids are going to go with them. that is especially hard for their mother and two other sisters. part of their mothers understanding when she sent two of her younger kids to live in mount vernon is that she would be close to them. the abington national airport is not that far from mount vernon. she could have seen and played often. if they are going to philadelphia and new york, the two little girls will not see their siblings. it is really painful for the family to have to say goodbye to one another. there is another group of people

that gets drawn into this whic is the enslaved people at mount vernon that the washington bring with them to new york and then philadelphia that are separated from their families and don't really have any choice. >> we have had no experience with this when george, martha and the children went to the first capital in the -- the first capital in new york city. how old were the two children that point. >> nellie is 10 years old and the kids are aware enough to know what is going on. they see all the fanfare grading them on their trip up to new york. there is a parade in the city when they get there. >> that is interesting because picking up on your comments earlier about the concern about a royalty, the public reaction to washington, the public did not want royalty but they seemed to crave a family that was her as a model and symbol for the nation.

first, your comments on that and what kind of learning adjustment, public pressure was put on martha and the children as a result of this? >> it is an interesting question. look at how fascinated americans are by royalty. it is not that we want to -- seem to want our presence family to be wealthy but we also devote a lot of media coverage to them. i remember, you can remember back to the obamas trying to shield their daughters, the way that the clintons tried to shield chelsea clinton from the media. there is a long tradition going back to washington's of intense focus on the family but the only model the public had at the point that george washington becomes president is royalty. they were used to following george the third and his many children and so this is there new sort of substitute. there are even debates over the title for the president.

people were suggesting instead of mr. president that he be called his elected highness. at receptions, he and martha are sitting on a raised dais in the room. there are these trappings of monarchy they have not gotten past in the country. even if this family is not going to be a royal family, they are going to be the subject of attention all the time. and it is expected that not just george is attending, that martha will be with him and that the children will be with him. as nelly gets older and all that, she is called upon went regularly to play the harpsichord for visiting dignitaries, members of congress that are coming to dinner, whoever is coming to the president's house. the family in many ways is similar to the first family today with the exception that at least now, the white house has a

separate quarters. int had no separation.at this george washington's office in philadelphia was on the third floor. you had to go up there to get to a cabinet meeting. you can see they don't have a lot of privacy. >> when did the term first family, to use? quote interestingly, that is not used at the time that the washington's are in office. we first start seeing it occasionally used in the late 19th century but it appears that it doesn't become popular until the kennedys actually. in the mid-20th century. it is a fairly recent term. >> what did they refer to in the press? >> the president's lady, something like that. we axley saw with the next first, abigail adams was sometimes referred to as many president tests. -- presidentess.

it would be misses washington, the president's lady. people knew how they were related. >> what did that due to the family and how involved with the now teenage grandchildren and the politics surrounding them? >> i think it is surprising because we tend to think george washington was such a popular president but if you look at his second term, it got very ugly. there was a pamphlet published that imagined the attaining -- guillotining him like the french president. he can be above those tensions. just thinking about the fact that his office is in the house, it had to have permeated the

atmosphere of the house. it had to have been stressful for them. nelly becomes very politicized. she is publishing for the federalist. washington considered was sum above party but he certainly identified more with the federalists. he was described as being very anti-french. he does not seem to have been part of these public events very much. toward the end of the second term, he has found a way to the cause of princeton which they have to leave for some kind of disciplinary infraction including disrespect for teachers apparently. but he does not seem to be tied into this. it seems like it would have weighed much more on nelly and martha. >> it says that george and martha were very interested in the people have the

grandchildren would choose as their spouses. if we could just quickly talk about who patty betsy and nellie married. >> the choice itself is quiet important. the parents are not making the choice for the daughters at this point but it is mostly with their approval. the first want to marry is actually patty. he is married a man named thomas peter. i wealthy family in georgetown which actually at the time was seen as a different city from washington city. the district of columbia would come to include georgetown, alexandria and washington city. he is from this sort of old money family in georgetown and then also, on some plantations out in maryland. that seems to be a very happy marriage. they are getting married fairly young. have a large family and children

and seem to be very happy together. the next to get married is eliza. her nickname changes. she seems to be courting this man named thomas savor the. nobody in the family knows about it and there shocked when she announces the engagement. it is at this point that she knew she was about to get engaged and a lot of the advice that he gives basically says don't marry someone a lot older than you. thomas law was 20 years older. he had been a government agent in india for the bears government. he had several children by an indian woman who we don't really know a lot about or what their relationship was but he brought those mixed race children to the united states with him. washington is also saying you want to make sure you are

marrying somebody where you have congenial tempers and what we find out is both thomas and eliza are very strong-willed, erratic people who can't get along. they do marry. george washington says i am really surprised by this engagement but if this is the guy you want to marry, that is ok. thomas did have to go to eliza's stepfather, david stewart and prove his -- prove he could financially support her. and then nelly is the last of the girls to marry. the one who said she was determined to be a spencer -- spinster. this is a nephew of george washington. his sister possibilities son who looked a lot like george washington, multiple people said that. that is kind of an interesting note there. he was pursuing nelly. she initially wasn't interested. and then there is a chance they will be a war with france.

lawrence get the military appointment. when nelly realizes he might leave, suddenly she is like yes, i would like to marry you. george washington is delighted by this. promises to give them a piece of land out of his mount vernon estate where they can build a house. he is just delighted to have nelly stay within the family circle here. he says because she is marrying into my family, we are still recognizing her as the adopted daughter and lawrence as his blood relative that this is strengthening the ties that he has with her at this point. quickly his grandchildren and women were positioned to be leading figures. was this a liberty about politics? money? power? >> that is an interesting

question. it differs a little bit for each of them. i don't know that i would say money in terms of cash, these people are rich in land. the daughters all inherit 60 enslaved people and then they get another 40 or so after martha died from mount vernon. that is where the wealth is. they are cash poor most of their lives. i think eliza's case, there is much more of the political power here. she is the only one living in washington city on capitol hill with her husband and they know everybody. she has congressman stopping by her house all the time. she knows everything going on in the city. i think there is a political power there for eliza. she is certainly building that

on george washington. she often says his best of child. that is how she described herself. she believes she gets her power from her family connection. nelly and patty are a little bit farther out from the city and don't have the same level of political influence although that sort of varies over time. it is really their family name that gives them power. it does not necessarily make the money. in the case of their brother, he can't be elected to office because he lives in arlington which is then part of the district of columbia. there is no federal office he can run for. if you live somewhere else, might that have been different? possibly. the power came from how they are more than anything else. >> after george died in 1799,

martha follows him to death in 1802. you mentioned the nephew inherited mount vernon itself. the family staged an auction of their grandparents belongings so furnishings and paintings and all that sort of thing after martha washington died. the family scripted all up. it is interesting because these items seem to be a real key to their ongoing celebrity. >> i think you're absolutely right. this option is part of martha's will. -- auction is part of martha's will. she wants to raise money for her nephew's education. by the time the public gets there, the catholic grandkids have bought all the good stuff. it seems clear they realize there is going to be power and having these objects.

these are civic relics. to be able to type something that george washington touched, you see people writing about experiencing -- encountering these relics as a way to encounter george washington and certainly the grandkids use them that way. they go into quit a bit of debt buying objects for what he calls his washington treasury. the -- the 19th century, if you wanted to see things from mount vernondid not go to mount , th is where the largest number of them were. he welcomes people to come in and tell them stories. the other disciplines have what if you objects as well. they are using them in their daily lives. even the example of patty and her husband got george washington's bedpan at the auction. this is something women would use when they were basically

staying in bed after having a child and she probably used it that purpose. it does go along with the other family relics. it is thicker with numbers and catalogs. the bedpan was among them. everything from this to mundane things like a bedpan. they told they were giving significant items away to carry clinical failure. what struck me was they got to the point and this might have been where he was cutting individual words out of george washington's levers. you might get one word written by washington and using that as a token to curry favor with people or one of the daughters was cutting up george washington's breaches. these totems really mattered i

guess to people who were getting them. >> right. people often say this is terrible. we would never do that. at the time we did not think about the association value. it was through the physicality of this object that i can access that famous person. it did not matter the scrap of the letter or the full letter. we see that they are cutting up some of the letters. we axley know which pair of pants she was doing this from because she did not cut the whole thing up and mount vernon has this pair of black velvet breaches that match the little patches with a big bag hole in them from where she cut out the

bits. she is sending them to all sorts of people. it is a way she was a not just remember george washington but remember me who was his best love child. it is also self-promotion for all of them when they are giving these gifts. let's have you talk a little bit about the woman he married. she does have some influence on him. >> and think she has a lot of influence although there is a limit to it which i will get to but they probably meet as children. they are distant cousins, they have known each other for years and this seems to be a very happy marriage although they have four children and fairly quick succession. only one of them survives. molly from early on is

uncomfortable with slavery. she comes from a slave holding family but as soon as there is this movement called the american colonization movement and the formation of a society that aims to send free black people to a colony in africa that will become liberia, she becomes one of the earliest people involved in that movement. she is far earlier than her husband. she does several years later become involved. and while white abolitionists looked at this as a fairly racist movement, to her, this was the benevolent thing to do and the way to solve the problem of slavery. it seems clear she wanted lost to free their enslaved people. the point of what she said it is they need a plan to do it. but it does not happen. he does not free all of the people that he owns until they

will be freed. in addition to the slavery issue, molly is a deeply religious woman. she is an evangelical christian. she wants her husband to share those beliefs. it does not believe he can get there until his death bed. she does seem to be pushing that influence within this law. >> as adults, the first big political event was the upcoming war of 1812. you describe it as a time of great political passion in the country. however, for this family, the war was personal. they seized the opportunity as heirs to george washington to get involved in the national dialogue over the war. can't tell you tell me more about that? crestor of 1812 was one of these very little-known wars because in terms of the total number of people involved, not that big. the treaty in the war says

things will go to status quo antebellum. as a practical matter, it does not have a huge effect. but there were several big things that come out of this war. one is the partisan differences. they were mostly located in new england. they were against france, they do not want to go to war with england. mostly it will hurt merchant interest in new england. there is better -- bitter partisan fighting. there are attacks on various political parties and the democratic republicans are the ones who want support of the war and allows it is the only citizen who was a democratic republican at this time. patty will always be a federalist even though the federal party basically died at. her granddaughter described her as a federalist.

disciplines are disagreeing over this. the other thing that brings george washington into it is had the british attacked washington dc and they burned down the president's house, they burn all the federal buildings. this is george washington's namesake city. in a way a personal affront them. he is willing to go fight. he goes out where they are trying to stop the bridge from getting to washington and supposedly man's i can and there to help in the fight. his sister patty, she can see the city burn from her house in georgeto she can see the fires in the city. she goes there two days later with her husband. she meets some of them and interestingly, this is sort of a spinoff of the napoleonic war. it is willing to strip the come from the peninsular war to burn

washington. patty peter talks about what gentlemen they all are and when she has a baby not that long afterwards, she is pregnant at the time this happens, she names that child daniel wellington. that is a startling show of how much she loves the british who have just burned down the city named after her grandfather who she adores. disciplines have very different reactions to how this war plays out. >> moving ahead about a dozen years to the next big event that they got involved and that is the tour of marquis de lafayette. the hero of the war, it was almost a year-long tour of the united states in 1824 and 1825 and you say it is hard to overstate the euphoria and fanfare grading lafayette at every stop on his tour. why was there such a big

reception for lafayette? what were people craving? but there are a few things here. they have not been talking about the revolution that much. it was fairly recent. they had not built up nostalgia for it yet. lafayette had been so young during the time of the word that he is one of the last surviving officers from the war. if not the most important surviving officer. when he comes back and is going to visit, he goes to every state in the country at this point. everybody sort of sees him as a reminder of the greatness of the american revolution and the greatness of america as a country. through this relationship with friends at this point, he represents the ties with france. he is just an immensely popular figure. the souvenirs created at this time, there are things like gloves for women that have his face on them.

there is pottery, fabrics, prince you can buy, everything you can imagine and everywhere he goes, there are thousands of people turning out to see him. it is a monumental event. they are ready knew him, they young children when he had been in the revolution. they kept in touch with him but they had not seen him for a long time. they talk about him as a sort of adopted father figure and so they are a big part of this tour, especially when he is in the d.c. area and he visits all of the siblings. they make sure all of the stories get into the newspapers. >> they presented him an opportunity again and to reinforce their own celebrity, making sure that every stop they went she was in the newspaper. he also writes that there was a new passion and purpose.

what was that a and purpose they found through lafayette? quincy stretched talking to lafayette about members of the revolution. he is initially going to write up some kind of reminiscence of lafayette specifically but then he starts writing up stories he has heard from george washington and washington friends about the revolution itself. this starts a process. he is going to keep writing columns for the newspaper the rest of his life which will be turned into a book of recollections after his death. not only is he writing big newspaper columns, he gets obsessed with memorializing revolution in general which many americans do in the wake of lafayette's visit. he writes historical plays about the revolution, he also does the massive historical paintings of geor washington during various portant battles. if you look these paintings up online, they are not particularly insightful but he spent a lot of time on them.

the other thing that comes out is that it is -- is there discussions on slavery. lafayette is very antislavery and he in fact is trying out a solution of setting up an island in the caribbean we are people can go. it is in the wake of lafayette visit that they publish something saying i have a plan to free my enslaved people over the course of 10 to 15 years. i think it would not have happened had it not been for lafayette's visit. unfortunately, that energy around antislavery daschle and cressy a pretty sordid history of abuse of some of the women he enslaved. what was that history? >> it seems to go back pretty far in his life and in fact, his father may have also had a child by an enslaved woman through

sexual exploitation so i have signaling -- exploitation, a half sibling. this is not uncommon in the life of enslavers. there was no idea about consent at this point when enslaved people are property and so we have a few people we can pinpoint through family stories. particularly this young woman. this is around the time that washington is getting married to mary. this is the one child he gives 17 acres of land two. there are a number of other children. 10 of them and their mothers that he frees. i don't think it is a stretch to say those were probably all his children because after the death, there were numerous newspapers. one saying he did have children

by enslaved women. one saying that he had about a dozen. the other that had a much higher number that may be included grandchildren or great-grandchildren by those people. these are never people he publicly recognizes as his family. that gift of land is as close as he got. everybody in the area knew and his whole family including his wife had to know. i do wonder how much of his opposition to slavery had to do with the fact that she experienced her husband safely splitting women on their mentation. >> one of the people is a man by the name of william costin and he published an excerpt of this. he went on to equate prestigious career as a free man in washington dc and had a long

relationship with the family. the ties between them are interesting given his family legacy with them. >> right. william costa is such an interesting story because we are still piecing together things. i keep hoping that the pieces are going to turn up or that a descendant will come forward because in a case like this, we do have descendants who have family stories about this, family knowledge and objects that have been passed down. in this case, his mother was a woman named ann or nancy who had apparently had children first with a man by the last name of costin and then a man named holmes. there is good evidence it was jackie. william costin marries an enslaved woman named delsie judge. they are able to find freedom in

new hampshire and escape from the washington's. both williams, his wife, his half sibling, his mother and then all of his children are freed. specifically by eliza and her husband. he gives all of his children the middle name park which is a family tradition going back to a strange lawsuit. it is hard to imagine why he would have done that. why would he do that? even lends the money at one point. eliza deposit a copy of her well with him. this is a very trusted person in their lives. and he owned property in the nation's capital. he becomes a corner for the bank of washington and is very respected.

also, when there is a new law passed in d.c., they say free black people have to register with the government and put up a bond for good behavior. basically that they would forfeit if they did something wrong. he refuses to do this and takes them to court. the argument the lawyer makes which i believe must have been in consultation with costin is people should be treated equally. all people should have -- all men should have this right to vote and the judge says now, come on. people can't be restricted from voting but you can apply this lot retroactively. so he does when the so-called civil rights case. but he is putting forward something pretty progressive of the time. he stays a prominent citizen in d.c.. he is involved in a lot of black

charitable organizations and when he dies, it appears all the prominent white people and black people come to his funeral. john quincy adams uses him as an example in a speech in congress on how black people should also have the right to vote. you just went to this guy's funeral because he respected him so much and he was black. why wouldn't you want him to vote? he is this model in the city in ways -- his character was respected in ways that i don't think they are everywhere. question noted that he did more to advance the nation's ideals from -- ideals. we have about 10 mins left on our conversation and there is still lots more we can talk about. one thing i want to go on the record is the support that washed, nellie and arak -- eliza gave andrew jackson, seeing him

as their grandfathers political heir. george washington's federalist politics are used and andrew jackson's optimism seemed very hard -- very far afield. what is the basis for the support? >> it is very strange. based on their political views, it might make sense. but for the others, absolutely not. this is not the kind of person that the partisan views will align with. there are a couple things here. he is the hero of the battle of new orleans. they met him after that. love military heroes. george washington was a military hero. partially that. also, one of the young men that he served as a surrogate father four, edward george washington butler married nelly's daughter so they also have that personal family connection with him. clearly by this point for him, it is not about the specific parts and belief. if you look at their politics for the rest of their adult

lives in terms of which candidate they are supporting, it is not about partisanship. zachary taylor has basically no specific views on much of anything. he is a wig. he is a famous military general. more than anything i think it was that identification of a famous general that attracted them. >> you carried the story through to the next generation with how they continued the plantation lifestyle. i wanted to talk about just one of them. one of them had a very famous cell. that is washington's only child marries a virginia military person. who was he? >> the only white daughter, mary, another distant cousin, robe e. lee she had known from

childhood. her father is not thrilled about this marriage. the family did not have a great reputation. her father died in debt basically. the stepbrother had been involved in scandal. also, they knew they were going to the military. he was going to west point. that meant he would have this sort of lifestyle. but mary fell in love. robert e. lee actually had plenty of women who would have been interested in him. he was a handsome, flirtatious, charming young man but he was in love with mary. they get married in 1831. arlington house is their home base. that is the house that they built and it is the house that

his daughter mary will inherit. it is worth knowing that robert e. lee never owned this house. it is george washington and then mary custis lee. that is actually an issue right now because the national park service site, arlington house is named the robert e. lee memorial. there is a campaign to get that off of their. this is partly about the civil war. >> with the short-term time that we have left, wash was the longest surviving and you say that when he died, he had an enormous funeral, the used obituary. but there the story ends for them. the notoriety does not continue to the next generation and you put the blame squarely at the feet of robert e. lee. why? >> robert e. lee, because of

marrying into the family was seen in many ways as the arab george washington and there were several books to that effect. when robert e. lee decides to take up arms against the union that george washington helped found, they see this as a profound betrayal. and they see the whole family as dragged down by that. partially there because many of the other descendants in the family did fight that state. the majority fought for the confederacy and robert e. lee is quiet famous. and in the aftermath of the civil war, with the reconstructed government, there is not a lot of love lost for lee. they are even bringing him up again afterwards and the sentiment is very much against

him. i think because of his association with the family and because of a country directed by northerners, they see him as a traitor. they are no longer as interested in the family. southerners who are revering robert e. lee are not that focused on his washington connections. they do talk about this but afterwards, the focus is on the lee family. to the extent that i am sure there were plenty of people that do not remember that robert e. lee was related to washington. i do think his decision, unlike the decision of most of the southern officers who went to west point to join the confederacy is part of what sex the family and the nation's esteem. >> we have a couple of minutes

left. you had some closing thoughts. i only want to a couple more words. the story is worth knowing. we can see how a family can be built from the choice but not just from dna. what are you saying there? >> i think it is important to keep in mind -- they are the people known to the public during both george washington's lifetime as president and then long afterwards as his family. etiquette is important to keep in mind that in many cases, who we define as family is a choice. who we leave out of our family and we include in it, there are conscious choices there. they are waiting out people in their construction of washington's family and who is washington's heirs. i think the people right now

because of the promised dna tests have gotten, there is this idea of biological family when the norm in many ways in our society is families with lots of different configurations that are built by choices that we make. >> you also tell leaders that during your work on the family george washington got you, have you found any interesting things along the way here? >> nobody is famous. >> i have not done dna myself. my aunts have done it. we were out of these questions about how much oval the dna played versus the people that actually -- there have been a lot of the stories.

no famous antecedents but i was able to trace my family back through my grandfather's line. he always says he did not have any family. i discover he had a massive family but it wasn't his branch of the family i could trace back the farthest. >> one minute we have left, you -- you noted that you worked with george washington's descendants. >> it depends on the person. there are some lateral descendants of his grandfathers line. it is fairly far out. there are people actively identifying george washington family. there are also groups that get

together, especially with historic sites. then there are the black descendants. some of them who really don't want to talk about this because of the pain that they know that their ancestry comes through expect -- through sexual expectation. some of them want to tell the story and talk about it. it really varies by the person. there has been some great work going on at arlington house. there was recently a reunion of black-and-white descendants of people that lived in arlington house that came together and are working together to help bring new interpretation at the site. i think that is exciting. >> the book is called the making of america. we thank you very much for spending a whole hour with us and telling us more about the

lives of george washington's stepgrandchildren. >> thank you for having me. all q&a programs are available on our website or as a podcast on our c-span now app. >> c-span's washington journal. a live forum involving you. government, politics and public policy from washington, d.c. to across the country. coming up monday morning we will discuss the current state of the economy with americans for prosperity and the center for law and prosperity. and a former cia analysis chief

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