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unfiltered. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> our next guest is jack c of the bipartisan policy center, she serves as the campus read expansion project director here to talk about the impact of the supreme court's decision on higher education matters. a little about the free expansion project, what is it and what is your role in it? >> we work with republicans and democrats to find the best ideas from both parties to promote security opportunities for american family, immigration, housing. we won't be able to do that in the future if we don't have new leaders graduating with a commitment to find practical -- so we support colleges and universities in their work to prepare graduates. >> as far as the skills that colleges should bring to the table, what you think they need to do in your opinion?

>> i think they need to prepare people to be empathetic listeners and give hearing to both sides of the case. if students are not coming to the campus with those skills today they are growing up in increasingly homogeneous neighborhoods and don't know people whose viewpoints and whose new sources or whose race or socioeconomic status differs from their own. that is especially true after the covid-19 pandemic when students were just going home into school. it is the most diverse community they have ever been a part of on our campus and they don't know how to talk to people whose ideas are different than their own. >> i would imagine in light of what you just said there that the affirmative action from the supreme court on a legal matter is one front but it affects the campus community as well. what do you see happening? >> i know you just had someone on from the wall street journal last week and feelings were running very high in the court

as the decision was being read. if that was the case in the court you can just imagine what it is like on college campuses where the case will have an actual impact. we know that students are going to bring their ideas to college campuses, as i mentioned they are not always very skilled at saying those things in a skillful way and i think students are going to hear things that make them feel like they don't necessarily belong. let me be specific. some african-american students may hear, students like you just got in because of affirmative action and that will be the case going forward. or asian-american students may hear, to borrow from a headline in a national publication, asian americans are just being used as allies of white supremacists. if you see those things on social media and in the regular media and public opinion, 18-year-olds are going to be saying things that tend in that direction too.

it is especially going to be important for resident advisors, student affairs leaders to be ready to break into those conversations and say hold it. that might happen on social media, that is not how we conduct ourselves on our campus. >> if you are an administrator at the college, what are the best practices to start now as far as preparing the faculty and staff and ultimately the students? >> this is the question for college presidents, they have to show their leadership and i am expecting they will do that. i am looking for three things from college presidents. number one, a statement about the decision. i am looking for them to work with their admissions teams about revising their policies and working with resident life and student affairs. i had a college president once tell me being a college president is the most political

nonpolitical job there is. that is especially true today when many people distrust colleges and are worried about cost and free expression and whether admissions are fair. college presidents are going to be looking to make sure they communicate they are in touch with public feeling about this. >> i suppose they also have to work on clarifying how the process works on their individual campuses and how it is going to be impacted by this decision. >> i do think college presidents are going to have an eye on the public. we know on-campus opinion is divided and off-campus public opinion is divided. researchers at stanford, harvard and university of texas found that 69% of the public including a majority of democrats, republicans, independents favored the decision it so it is going to be very important for college presidents to say they are committed to diversity and

campus values. they are going to comply with the decision there are a few presidents who have directly criticized the decision but they are going to be wanting to communicate and they are going to want to build a diverse class and will comply with the decision. quacks are guest with us and if you want to ask a question about how college campuses can be impacted by the decision especially as students and faculty talk about these things, -- if you are a student or an educator at a college you want to give your input to. [no audio] -- what are you hearing specifically from colleges and universities and to what level does that give you comfort as far as what is to come? >> i feel pretty confident that colleges are going to be ready in their responses. this is a widely anticipated decision so they had plenty of time to get ready.

thinking about the admissions peace for example we have a lot of experience from the last 25 years or so from states where it is already being a requirement that there are low race conscios decisions. there are nine states like oklahoma and nebraska, blue states like california and washington state, and they have had a lot experience trying to craft admission policies that build a diverse class while operating under the requirement that there be no race conscious admissions. host: on nbc, the incoming president of mount holyoke college was asked about what to expect on campuses. i want to tell you a little of her response and get a comment. >> i think what justice jackson pointed out in her dissent, and justice sotomayor, was that

racism was an important part of american life and for many people it plays a negative part in their life. kids k-12, significant resegregation of our public schools and it lack of resources in our schools, and the lived experiences of those students, black m otieno, native american and native hawaiian students. there is a significant negative impact from many of those experiences on the potential to compete for college admissions at places like harvard, university of north carolina. justice jackson says the majority has a let them eat cake obliviousness about the reality of race in the united states. i am becoming president of mount holyoke college tomorrow. i can tell you at places like mount holyoke at others, this will cause a major disruption in terms of admissions and the feeling of belonging for students on our campuses. host: that feeling of belonging, let's start with that.

guest: i do congratulate the president on her new role. the general public strongly supports and agrees that it is important to have a diverse college campus. in a washington post george washington university paul, the decision about the court, it found that's -- that 63% of the public hoped that the decision would be that it would be overturned. 64% said they support programs that increase the diversity of college student bodies and the four justices with that decision, justice roberts and his majority, and the three justices who had concurring opinions, all wrote they

understand the importance of a diverse student body. what the majority and the general public thinks is that they don't want to check the box to achieve a student body that is diverse. but the public recognizes it is important for our country. host: jackie pfeffer barrel. keith in denver, democrat line. caller: good morning. since you are a bipartisan policy analyst, who are -- i have a couple of questions. who is the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action so far? we should know this data. host: -- guest: well, the finding of the court was that students of color

and especially black students had benefited from affirmative action. it also found that race had been a negative and asian americans were less frequently admitted through the use of the programs at harvard, unc. that is a reason why they found the ways in which these policies were implemented and these schools did not need this scrutiny and were used as a negative stereotype. host: todd in ohio. caller: hey pedro. the previous person to call was talking about who benefits from it. my own question is this. i thought it posed significance, it showed belief that they thought race was significant

when the majority decision -- opinion rather, where he wrote the essay was the place where you can address race when you talk about how it affected you. that summarizes it. i want to know, do you think that is significant and it should be part of the what qualifies in a diverse population? because the decision overall concerns me, but when i read that part of the opinion i thought ok. they are not lost. they understand it is an important thing. guest: yeah. -- i want to recommend to readers -- i think they're going

to widen the net. they are going to find ways in which they can recruit students at schools with populations that have been disadvantaged. so the university of virginia is going to be targeting 40 schools in particular, some are going to be using the landscape program to identify students, neighborhoods and schools that have high populations that are historically underrepresented on campus. i think there will be a continued pressure on act, sat optional policies and we will see it many of those become permanent. i think there will be questions about whether or not colleges should continue legacy admissions as johns hopkins has done, they just discontinue them. you are pointing to the question

of ethics. justice robert said that colleges can elicit individual essays how students backgrounds have shaped them. there will be a lot of focus about how these can be posed. justice roberts did write it can be written in such a way as to achieve what was unlawful today. but that essay question is a real focus of what admissions officers are paying attention to. one thing that is not being done by colleges and universities, the elite schools, it's less -- let's whine the number who will not admit more students -- part of being in the school is this. host: shirley in indiana, good morning.

caller: good morning. i'm calling because of the federal law that protects yellow students. beginning in the first grade, white kids and black kids are discriminate against -- this law states that if english is a second language, they are not to be discriminated against, which they're not. but that same law discriminate against black and white students whose begin bush. if a child that is an esl student fails, they are not allowed to fail them for the first eight years that they are in america. but black kids and white kids -- which means that those kids get to go on for the first eight years of their life and get a

special consideration, where the other kids are held back and not given that consideration. the person on this line that is talking right now, the speaker, is she aware of that law that black kids and white kids in grades one through eight are held back if they don't achieve the goal and other kids are moving on duck up -- moving on? host: thanks for the perspective. guest: thanks so much. my salute to all of the math teachers out there. i am not familiar with how this law would intersect with the decision we are discussing today. but what is important is the quality -- some of the viewers may have tuned in last week.

they agree that you need to do more on k-12. we saw on the nation's report card, it came out recently and found that math and scores fell during the pandemic and the racial gap that already existed between black students and white students increased for math in particular. today we are talking about college admissions and that is important. that is just one moment and they k-12 college and postgraduate studies, employment, trajectory. i think addressing that k-12 quality and achievement in his address and what happened to herod. host: -- higher ed. host: there was a report about a

senior at cal state long beach. she said she was one of the few black students in her bootable science -- political science courses who feels pressure to maintain high-grade so other people don't question that she has a right to be there. she is now considering historically black universities to apply for a doctorate, where she will be welcome. how does that play out as far as other students who may be grappling with these emotions? guest: you raised this question of belonging and i think that legacy of race conscious admissions and affirmative action have raised these questions and will continue to do so. this reflects the experience that justice thomas had of having his qualifications questioned. other students feel they belong less and there less likely to see fewer students who look like

them because of the decision. that is why it is so important -- these conversations will come up. i will think of a programming advance and being ready for when these conversations go sideways. they may say i'm in college, we engage with one another successfully. host: are there programs other colleges have used? guest: one thing i've seen in a number of colleges and universities is talking about open inquiries from the moment that students arrive on college campuses. purdue university, depaul university, they have orientation around freedom of

expression and they say he might have been told only impolite people are religious, but that is what we hear at a nosh that is the excitation because our purpose at college is to be independent speakers. one practice i think is very good is these orientation programs for matriculated students. host: on the republican line from georgia, hello. caller: how many graduations did harvard have this spring? host: -- guest: i am not certain about the number of graduations harvard has had this spring or in other years. host: are you still there? caller: yes. host: how does it relate to the topic at hand? caller: because they had

segregated graduations, correct taco -- correct? guest: i don't know that that is the case. i do think there are schools where alumni associations and groups have separate celebrations, not actually graduations showing a variety of divinity -- affinity groups. but i don't know anything about this practice in particular. host: in california, we will hear from cliff. the head. -- go ahead. caller: yes. i think there is an 80-20 situation going on, we are spending 80% of our time talking about 20% of the problem. the guest speaks about harvard,

stanford, usc, etc.. but most college students are going to state colleges and state-funded universities. they are a different animal than private colleges. some of the problem could be solved if other states would do what california and texas has done for over 100 years. we have a great system of junior or community colleges. they are just about absolutely free. anybody can go and it is not cost anything. then you just pay for your second two ears of another college. but it is somewhat of a conundrum when we talk about

having a society based on merit. a meritocracy. on the other hand, we are talking about giving somebody an extra boost. the two are not compatible. guest: i will respond in two parts. you are exactly right, it is not really an 80-20 problem. but many students and undergraduates attend schools that we think of as pre-highly selective, they slept only 25% or fewer applicants. and that kind of school, a small fraction of the 4500 higher education institutions, those schools are where the affirmative action case will have any impact.

the research institute at the university of california los angeles finds that more than half of students who attend public universities attend university within an hours drive of their home. one thing that can be done if we are concerned about equity in the long run is that employers can do more, not just take students from the top 10 or 25 schools but to recruit broadly from a wide range of colleges and universities where students are attending. but you have to make a point about community colleges. 40% of students enrolled are at community college today or started their education at one. we had an imposing for leaders of community colleges and i was able to see what a terrific job they were doing to prepare conversations across boston

community college that's awesome can unity college. they bring together students to discuss texts like homer's odyssey and learn how to have open conversations that they take into their education and communities. host: from virginia, the democrat line, you're on with our guest. caller: real quick to my sister who was talking about esl students, esl students can be black too, but not only that, they're not talking black students are having opportunities. you can also be failed. i work with students and i had a student fail because they almost failed three classes and they were going to hold him back. if uva is going to be reaching out to diverse students or whatever, are they going to fix their policies and address all of the history in the past,

including thomas jefferson, and i think it is ironic that we have a white woman talking about affirmative action. have a good day. guest: we have seen schools like georgetown in washington, d.c. think about the ways in which slavery has had an impact on their history and tried to address that through conversations and scholarships. it is a hard question and we are grappling with those things as a country and as code campuses. that is why this particular topic and affirmative action in this case has feelings that are running so high. we want the colleges to be ready when students come back in the fall, for when these conversations will be taking place.

host: the new york times put out a survey about where the public stands on these kind of issues. they were asked about private colleges and universities, saying they should not be able to use race as a factor in admission and 69% agreed. that translates to how these discussions will take place on campus come the fall. guest: does. it was not 69% over all only, but a majority of republicans, democrats. there is broad support. we know there might be the case there is more support for race conscious admissions in college campuses and among admissions officers. but if they are ready to say all hands of things, the washington post quoted in georgia tech, asian-american students lustful

who were speaking about decisions, saying students are afraid of being canceled. we want to make sure the number one job of a college is to have open conversations. we want students to support -- to express support or opposition to this decision. i think the justices model that. you can tell reading the decisions it was deeply personal. there are going to be some students who agree with justice roberts that the way to eliminate this is to limit all of it. there will be those who agree with justice sotomayor who agree. you can organize meeting groups, discuss these positions, and how

the justices -- but philosophical, moral, legal arguments that are personal on which they disagree. host: you have to deal with free-speech issues a lot of the time, but how do you allow the conversation to happen? guest: leadership starts at the top. it is terrific when we see college presidents, whether at baylor university, university of richmond, they have president speaker series where the president brings in speakers and moderate the conversations that may have different points of view and are challenging to the campus community. but i think it is also important to have panels with lots of different points of view and it begins in classrooms where we get to have a little historical

move on some of these conversations. so we read about the constitutional debate. or we can read frederick douglass, or any number of the federalists and learn about the principles that are still informing this kind of decision today. host: charles on the independent line, in maryland, you are on with jacqueline pfeffer merrill. caller: thank you, good morning. as an african-american graduate of a state school, a local school, it informs my comments. first to the gentleman who said who benefits the most from these type of affirmative action programs, i believe everyone does. because you are exposed to different cultures, different people and in my experience 50

years ago, it informed how i managed to navigate the corporate world. in addition to that, i think the private schools, the affirmative action decisions and how it affects the private schools is that a lot of our great leaders that manage the country, that lead the country corporately and politically comes from these organizations or colleges. so if we are not in the room, there is less diversity in what is going to be represented in the future. those are my comments. host: thank you. guest: i could not agree with you more. i was a college professor for years and i know that diversity is part of what makes a college

classroom successful. having students with all political points of view, urban, rural students and students who are lacking, latino, white, immigrants to this country, think about what justice powell said in the original decision, the first of these cases, he cited a brief from harvard university. it said it might be more important to bring in a farm boy from idaho then one more australian and likewise, a black student will be able to bring a perspective that a white student will not be able to bring. having a diverse group of people on campus is mission-critical. you have a wide range of viewpoints in our discussions. host: sergio in order,

republican line. go ahead. caller: good morning, how are you? guest: good, thank you. caller: i have a couple questions. how does affirmative action and higher education impact my different universities, but african-americans want to improve upon their education, do you think this is a good move by president biden to do this properly as well? how do you think the democrats and republicans coexist on that? guest: my belief is that florida is one of the nine states where there are already rules against race conscious admissions. this is a question of how the

states implement these decisions. they go around the particular school systems, they have to study the case, some schools already decided they have read the case to mean that race conscious scholarship decisions will no longer be possible so the university of missouri, which includes four public universities, more than 7000 students a year. the university of kentucky have decided on their reading of the case, that race will no longer be a plus factor in the awarding of scholarships. on the question of president biden and others weighing in, it is important for universities to build in.

we are waiting for college leaders to think about how we design a college class. host: what you think this will do as far as campus discussions on connected admissions -- admissions duck boat guest: -- admissions? guest: there will be tough to say. i don't think many going to revisit legacy. it is race neutral at space but in fact it overwhelmingly benefits white students. there are some schools that have given up legacy admissions. johns hopkins has done so and it was tied to a large gift from michael bloomberg who gave that gift contingent upon them giving up legacy is. this could be more pressure to give them up. but just like we did not hear

them say no we are admitting more students, now we are going to have legacy admissions, we will ask them to favor legacy admissions overwhelmingly unpopular. host: in pittsburgh, democrat line,. caller: i'm actually in college right now and i have spent some time in a state school and i transferred to a private university. so i feel like i have been able to kind of see a little of what a modern university is and i don't know if i -- growing up in high school before i was going to college, we are very aware of what schools are looking for. what is crazy about race conscious admissions is it is

literally this conscious admission that your race matters. and in the same way that volunteering has washed -- there is a conscious expectation. it looks better on your application. so a bunch of students were doing volunteering work but they don't care that much. but they are doing it because they think it is going to help them. they're going to follow through and we have seen the same thing happen with race in a weird way. i think part of our cultural divide is that we have been asking kids around 14 and 16 to be aware of their divisions with each other. schools matter a lot to people. for some more than others. but when you make something matter that much it also tells

them by the way -- i had a conversation in high school with a teacher -- and i will finish soon -- but he is hispanic and he asked me, we were having a conversation about race conscious admissions and he said would you give up your spot to someone who you have the same credentials but they were black or whatever? would you give up your spot? when i was 16, that shook me a little. i felt like why should i consciously be stepping down? that should not be my choice. i don't think it is fair for that choice to be determined by the color of our skin on some level. it should be determined by the merit of our work. host: i want the guest to respond. she was to respond to you directly. guest: thanks very much for

that. i'm wishing you the best in your studies. i know how high feelings run when one is applying for college. my eldest child went through that last year. i know personally how to tense one feeling -- one's feelings can be. it is hard because college admissions are a game. if someone gets in, some alleles does not. on this case, what we saw in the argument is that there are intellectually and morally serious arguments on the case. i love that your teacher asked you to think about that question. and to deeply engage with that question. that is what we are going to see on college campuses, people wrestling with what is this americans of the decision, how's it going to be implanted

practically, how did they incorporate that into their understanding of the meaning of a college experience? host: this is going to be a topic when he returned to college, how do you think it will change the culture? caller: i don't know. i think it will be better in a sense. i am jewish, white. i have had friends who are black explain -- express the same, you get into a program and you feel is this because i'm black, because i'm white, the same way that i did not get into a fair amount of schools when i applied for some high school. -- first in high school. not trying to be a evil human being and be considerate of everybody. but i cannot help but have this sense -- this gnawing voice, is this because of the color of my skin? that is a thing i thought of.

it is cut sideways through merit because it is that conversation with my teacher. when he was trying to say was, i think, i'll have to go back and talk to him. but he was telling me, you want your spot -- is someone is going to have my spot, i want to know and trust they are better than me. host: thank you for the perspective. guest: i think one thing that is important, you mentioned working with community college leaders, are excellent opportunities for terrific education, whether it is regional, community or public university, community college. one thing in the country, in the business community, it is making sure they are in talks with

institutions. host: brian, independent line. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. you got one heroic call center guy answering the calls, this is not working, it is not rational, you got to get more people answering the phones. my point, a raise. it's irresponsible to talk about affirmative action. you guys are very factual but affirmative action is not just disqualifying people into these college admissions. affirmative action addresses is because of other affirmative action for rich people is that they have this they are already

getting preferred treatment because their parents and their grandparents going to these colleges and they have generational wealth area african-americans coming out of the jim crow and slavery did not have property for generations. affirmative action means a lot of qualified african-americans couldn't get into the college based on the preference. that's what it addressed. it was not there based on just the color of the skin but it's that a lot of qualified african-americans could get into colleges and that made it predominantly white and a lot of unqualified white people getting to college based on the generational wealth. host: we will let our guest respond to your comment. guest: i appreciate the perspective. when you go back to the pole that was done by the washington post in george washington university, even though about two thirds of people and almost half strongly say they hope they would overturn affirmative

action, two thirds also said the support programs that make student bodies more diverse. people support those kinds of programs but they don't like to just check the box to achieve that so i think there will be support for other types of programs that achieve having a diverse student body and do them in a different way than we saw at issue in this particular case. host: bipartisan policy.org is the website and you can find the work of our guest right there. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more, including buckeye broadband. ♪

buckeye broband supports c-span as a public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> tuesday, pga tour executives testify on the groups partnership with liv golf, owned by saudi arabia. watch the subcommittee hearing live at 10:00 a.m. history -- eastern on c-span, c-span now or c-span.org. >> order your copy of the 118th congressional directory available at our c-span shop website. it has bio and contact information for every house and in it member, and important formation on committees, the president's cabinet and state

governors. it is $99.95 less ipng and handling and every -- $29.95 plus shipping and handling. >> coming up, president biden visited the united kingdom as part of his trip to the nato summit. then a preview of the week ahead on capitol hill. and then the federal vice chair on supervision. >> president biden traveled to the united kingdom, where he met with the british prime minister at 10 downing street in london. later, he visited king charles iii at winds are capital -- windsor castle. later he will travel to let the one you for the nato summit.