♪ host: it is tuesday, july 11, 2023. president biden is in lithuania today and tomorrow for a summit --

we will begin the washington journal with the question about the role of the united states plays in trying to solve international problems. if you think the united states is taking to heart of role, the number to call is (202) 748-8000 . if you think that u.s. role isn't large enough, (202) 748-8001. if you think that u.s. has its place in international order about right, (202) 748-8002. the number two text is (202) 748-8003. if you do, include your name and where you are from. catch up with us on social media. a very good tuesday morning. president biden is in the louisiana -- lithuania capital.

in his remarks at that ceremony, president biden discuss the work to be done in the days ahead of the nato conference. [video clip] >> we take -- nato takes, all of us take article five literally. one inch of nato territory means we are all -- are all in war together. i want to thank you for hosting this summit at a important time, the first time that nato leaders will meet with the -- together and looking forward to meet soon with 32 members with sweden. the leader of sweden was in my oval office not long ago. i am hoping this occurred when it did. in the coming days, we will discuss a range of issues about

the strength of nato's eastern flank and modernize nato's deterrence and defense capabilities and we will be doing it in a place where efforts matter every single day and we will discuss our support for the people of ukraine. i want to thank you for your partnership and leadership as we take on this challenge together so i look forward to our conversations today and to continue to stand with you and all the people of lithuania. we have the same values. it is important and that is what nato is all about. host: president biden earlier today in lithuania and the front page of today's wall street journal focusing on a story on part of those remarks. turkey a greeting -- turkey agreeing to let sweden into nato.

also, the picture on the front page, president biden yesterday at windsor castle getting a royal welcome with king charles and meeting with prime minister rishi sunak. he talked about climate change and the issue of ukraine and u.s. and ukraine support and military aid. president biden on a foreign trip this week and we will get back later in the week and amid that, amid the nato summit, we are asking you your thoughts on the u.s. role in foreign affairs. we have phone numbers for each of those answers. it was a pole from the gallup organization. this year that looked into this issue, the headline, fewer americans want the u.s. to take a major role in world affairs. some results from the poll, 55% of respondents say they were --

prefer the u.s. to take a leading are major role in world affairs and that total is down 4%. preferred the was taking a minor role in 7% want the u.s. e no role in all in foreign affairs. some more breaking the numbers down by party affiliation, republicans and independents are much less likely than democrats to-- to want the u.s. to make a maj leading r the u.s.. only 3% of docrats want the u.s. to have no international role in this quote from that llup poll. the percentage of republicans winning the u.s. to take the lead or have a major role in affairs are lower than the prior will of 69% in 2011 and it marks a sha departure from a

republic -- from what republicans wanted during the or w. bush presidency. " that from the gallup organization and we want to know your thoughts on the u.s. role in world affairs. do you think it is too much, too little, do you think it is about right? those phone numbers are on your screen. we will start with andrea in washington dc . caller: good morning. i feel that we are giving too much to the world and if we are to be a begin --beacon, we

should focus on demonstration. we are a country divided in every branch of government. host: what should that begin -- beacon look like? caller: i think it would show that we are connected, that we are unified, that despite our political differences, we have the same goal or a mutual goal which is to strengthen all three branches of the government and not be so divisive. we should be a strong beacon. thinking about the supreme court, thinking about how the republicans, the democrats are in conflict and how we even view our president and to set him around the world with that on his back doesn't seem to break. host: that is andrea.

if you think it is too much, (202) 748-8000, not enough, (202) 748-8001. if you think it is about right (202) 748-8002. to west virginia, this is josh. caller: how are you doing? host: go ahead. caller: can you. ? -- can you hear me? i think president biden is doing enough. he can do more. he -- we need to take a more active role because what happened under trump, he weakened nato. look what happened. host: what is a more active role against russia look like? are you talking u.s. troops? are you talking different munitions and systems? caller: anything and everything. i am old school cold war veteran?

. i have been around a well. -- all while. host: explain what you mean by that, and they all school cold war veteran -- an old school cold world -- that's, an old school cold war veteran. this is rick. massachusetts. caller: i want to talk about the war. host: i want to let you talk but i want to know to our viewers, the live picture, the class photo wrapping up at nato, the last picture is coming from lithuania and president biden walking out the stage. go ahead. caller: i wanted to say.

they are dragging the war out. it is not going to end. until they go to they don't need to drag it out. they are talking about sending more bombs. this guy toward down a bunch of states and we are talking about worrying about what he thinks? we should do some damage. that's what they need to do. host: you want nato to actively get involved in ukraine? caller: not nato, the ammunition. joe biden should -- give them what they ask for. they keep bragging -- dragging this thing out. russia is going to win in the

end if they keep doing this. they are a big country and ukraine is a little -- on the wall. they have to do damage in russia because russian people -- they control the russian tv stations and the people in russia don't know nothing. i guarantee they will wake up and find out what is going on there. host: that is rick talking about the debate over spending -- sending cluster munitions to ukraine to use in their fight against russia in a debate that has been day -- playing out. the editorial board of the new york times is taking up this issue in their lead editorial. they writes in the face of the widespread global condemnation of the cluster munitions and the danger they pose to civilians -- compelling it may be used use

weapons, nations in a rules-based international order -- at the use of an weapons of mass destruction or weapons that pose a severe and lingering risk to noncombatants, clustering -- cluster munitions fall in that second category. president biden talked about a decision to send cluster munitions to ukraine same it was a difficult one. [video clip] >> it was a difficult decision and the discussion is for our allies and friends on the hill. we are in a situation where ukraine continues to be brutally attacked across the board by munitions, these cluster munitions that had dud rates that are very high. number two, the ukrainians are running out of ammunition.

the ammunition, they call them 155 millimeter weapons. this is a war related to munitions. they are running out of the ammunition and we are low on it. what i did, i took the recordation of the defense department to not permanently but to allow for in this transition period where we get more one --155 shells or ukrainians to provide them with something with a low dud rate. they are trying to get through those trenches and stop those tanks from rolling. it was not easy. we are not signatories of that agreement. it took me a while to be convinced to do this. the main thing is to have the web to stop the russians now, to

keep them from stopping the ukraine offensive from these areas. host: president biden on cnn on friday, the debate on cluster munitions playing out on capitol hill. here is one tweet, saying cluster munitions are barbaric weapons, they are banned in many countries because of the harm they cause for civilians. they were rightly -- we have rightly condemned russia's use of cluster munitions and we should not facilitate use by ukraine. that is some of the debate on capitol hill and plenty debate on the military front will be taking place in the days to come as congress looks to pass the national defense authorization act, that annual military authorization bill, the washington times noting the house rules committee will be taking up that bill. there have been 1500 on them as

they have been up -- proposed. it is an $886 billion dollar defense bill. back to the question, asking you about the u.s. role in world affairs, do you think it is too much or too little or a bout right -- about right? one of those nato countries members, this is tom in north carolina. what do you think? caller: we are low on ammunition and we are sending all of this ammunition to another country. how much is it costing us taxpayers? i would like to see a chart of how much these other countries

are sending ammunition into ukraine and other countries compared to how much we are sending as taxpayers. the money could be spent wisely. we have veterans sleeping on the street. they're sending too much over there and we are having to pay for it. we are low on ammunition. i hope ukraine wins. you cannot fight the entire world. we have to have help from other countries. the u.s. has to spend more money than everybody else. host: bring back from ukraine, what about the u.s. will when it comes to other countries? we talk about the tensions with china. do you think the u.s. role, when it comes to reading in the pacific reason -- region, do you have similar reasons that we have to step back? caller: i don't want to see china take over taiwan. these other nato countries need

to come to the table and spend more money. we are spending a lot more money than these countries than any other country and it is costing us taxpayers. we have a deficit now. the clock's spending -- spending one million times a second. host: the front page of the new york times saying after years of self-isolation by china, president biden's top aides are trying to convince chinese officials that the nation could be on a foundation for new relations of the united states. they could amount to the most consequential diplomatic push of mr. biden's presidency. he is betting the dialogue could act as a balance in a relationship that has been in a freefall.

" i think there is a way to resolve a working relationship with china." it was janet yellen who was ending her visit to beijing on sunday. president biden at the needle summit sitting down next to yen stoltenberg, the nato chairman there. it is this needle some getting underway and it will be today and tomorrow. president biden said to speak at that summit. -- president biden set to speak of the summit. -- at that summit. caller: if we don't stay and check with allies, with more work two, germany and japan were two small countries and almost dominated the whole area. the reassurance that we are

getting of him checking with allies, increasing allies and wanting the country to join together, putin is joining with china and north korea and around iran. these areas are like chest pieces. we have to make sure the security of our nation through alliance is that all costs, we are in trouble and we have to be ready and he is doing the right thing. host: mark in wesley chapel, florida. on the line for those who say this too much. caller: the idea that trump weakened nato is ridiculous. nato is weak because of the leadership of the nato alliance. you have basically a bunch of socialist full who believe in man-made climate change. the horrible thing about this, a

self-funded putin's war into ukraine by buying oil from him. billions and billions of dollars had been given to putin for oil and they funded this war into ukraine. beto is weak because of the leadership of all these patients. putin -- the only reason putin did not invade ukraine during the top demonstration because he saw trump as a strong leader. chop intimidated putin. once joe biden went into the white house, putin looked at him stumbling around and said i will do what i want to do and -- if i want to do what i want to do with a full-scale invasion of ukraine, i will do it now. host: that is marked in florida. this is rob in new york city.

their thoughts in the u.s. role when it comes to world affairs right now. -- your thought in the u.s. role in comes the world affairs right now. caller: putin did not. during the trump administration because he did not want to embarrass trump. -- putin did not invade during the trump administration because he did not want to embarrass trump. he waited until after trump was gone. comp is and will be the weakest leader -- trump is and will be the weakest leader and he will bend over backwards for putin if, god forbid, he is reelected. this war in ukraine, i am so glad that we are going to provide these new admonitions, these cluster -- these new admonitions -- and munitions --a

mmunitions, these cluster ammunitions. putin is a murderer, offer these weapons, to realize they could have -- there could be future problems with a cluster. [indiscernible] -- as with this -- [indiscernible] host: i think we got your point. people go to eric in washington dc -- we will go to eric in washington dc. caller: they u.s. is not focused enough on ensuring -- the u.s. is not focused enough on ensuring their duty which is do no harm. oftentimes there is interest in the was helping others and that is understandable. it is often the case, sometimes that help, you should have reason to know that it may cause

harm. the cluster bombs is a great example where, seeking to help, but it will leave somewhere between half a million and 1.5 million bombs that will maim and potentially kill children for decades. today, the house will committee will be deciding on a boat whether or not to hold a vote on the banning the expert -- export of cluster bombs. that decision will be out there today. host: that is one of those amendments to the national defense authorization act. caller: exactly and that is the first time you see democrats pushing back directly. against arming ukraine in any particular way and it is interesting it is bipartisan

from progresses and the part on the right and the progressive caucus on the left. host: you are in washington dc and keyed in to what is going on in the rules committee, do you work in a capitol hill? caller: i worked on capitol hill but we ended up working with someone -- some in the right. walter jones are different congress members in the past who are for intervention. host: what are your thoughts on how folks on the left and anti-intervention on the right can come together on this issue? caller: it is great to see them coming together in a tangible way in terms of supporting matt gaetz -- her amendment to block cluster bombs. there is overlap in terms of concern of escalating conflict. president biden said this was

the closest we have been to a new their conflict that -- since the steven russell -- cuban missile crisis and there is a lot of support for reducing the presence abroad. jamar boatman --bowman has been pushing on reducing the role in syria. domestic politics and strong differences on domestic issues get in the way but that invasion is still active and relevant. host: we were showing you the live shots of president biden in lithuania at those initial ceremonies and meetings and photo shoots for this nato summit, the legislative branch is represented as well at this

meeting. a bipartisan correctional delegation is there. senator thom tillis and another is a quote -- are cochairs of the nato senate group and they are meeting to that summit and joining them will be senate majority dick durbin, pete ricketts, and senators angus king and dan sullivan joining that group. members of congress sending along their thoughts to what is happening when it comes to ukraine and the nato summit. this is congressman warren davison, the republican, secretary antony blinken has failed to define omission in the ukraine. -- the find a mission in ukraine.

-- failed to define a mission in ukraine. congressional delegation attends another nato sentiment, our bipartisan letter to congress democrats -- demonstrates -- commitments, nato funding commitments and weapons commitments. senator thom tillis on this trip. " i am proud to be in lithuania." a picture there of that delegation. it is 7:30 on the east coast sku about the u.s. role in world affairs. phyllis, south carolina.

caller: first, i don't like war, period but i cannot help but think back when trump tries to get ukraine to have dirt on joe biden so trump stopped military supplies that ukraine desperately needed and early in their start with russia. -- in this start with russia. we needed to do something about that and the other thing, republicans talking about, attack money. the republicans got us in the words, afghanistan, iraq, where was the concern about tax money then? last week saying, we did nothing to help ukraine when russia took that other -- i cannot think, i

am old so my memory sucks. when russia took that -- yes. we did not do anything that -- then. we should have helped. that is all i have to say. wait, we are in a mess. that trump created for his four years. case treasonous -- his treasonous acts he has been accused of and i have no doubt he has done. putin, some caller said putin -- he has got putin to do what he wants. it is the opposite. put in new trump was a dumb bunny. they are taking advantage of that fact. host: that was phyllis.

caller: the ultimate foreign policy regarding ukraine and russia and china. i know a person -- people who are connected militarily. u.s. military is ramping up lots of training and they sent out a manual and on, -- the cover of the manual is a picture of a chinese -- not a picture of a russian or chinese soldier. what is biden's goal with nato, to have them take on russia of the u.s. takes on china? you think -- do you know this is worse than any serious -- about global warming? do you know the destruction this

will cost to the globalization, the whole peacemaking -- peacemaking global capital missile -- capitalism model? host: did you think it was a good thing that the treasury secretary got back from china and the secretary of state china and there seems to be more meetings? caller: this manual was put out before janet yellen went to china. it seems like it is predestined. who put all this money and effort? they don't have any hope. janet yellen came by with a mediocre response. yes, ok. someone -- you need to -- we need to step back from the u.s. it has been war after war. very violent and disruptive -- disruptive since world war ii ended. what i and thinking it -- what i

am thinking is the united states is not the protector of democracy and freedom. it is a violent and bloodied and rolled nation and someone needs to push back and i am hoping nato turns to joe biden and says get out. we don't need war. we had lots of work here and i hope he looks at china and realizes you cannot take on china. if you take on russia, north korea, iran. if he pushes this, it is going to create so much misery for americans and for every -- everyone else involved in this mess. this whole thing with ukraine is going to -- is causing a famine in africa because you came supplies the wheat -- because ukraine supplies the wheat to africa. host: that is helen in long beach. this is brian in baltimore, maryland. your thoughts of the u.s. role

in world affairs. caller: what i was thinking was, joe biden is doing all well job. i don't know why people keep downing the united states of america for some reason -- keep doubting united states of america for some reason. we have enough weapons and supplies to do whatever we need to do. we were in a war of 20 -- 420 years and wasn't sure of any supplies will stop we are sending over afterwords -- supplies. we are sending over old weapons we don't use anymore. we -- joe biden has been evolving and upgrading weapons. we have to rejuvenate and of all our stockpile so we get ready -- rid of the old stuff and put new stuff in but we are not putting that information out there. another thing.

i think finland and sweden are now with nato. host: that cleared yesterday for sweden to join after turkey had been holding out its agreements and every nato member has to agree to let's in a new country. talking -- turkey agreeing to let sweden join and it seems clear for the alliance to increase to 32 members. caller: right. china is on it the client in their economy -- is on a decline in their economy. we found out last month so i believe they are sitting at 1%, their real estate are really bad so this is the reason i believe china is trying to buy property around the world. host: that was a couple things. let me get to frank. good morning. caller: thanks for taking my call.

i agree with the last caller. i think we can all agree that joe biden is probably the smallest -- smartest and most intelligent president we have had and you can see that with the experience and everything he has had. we have to do something with ukraine. him supplying those cluster bombs and everything over there, i think that is a tremendous idea which is a way to defeat the russians. i think the u.s. needs to step up around the world and help these countries. at this how i feel about that. -- that is how i feel about that. host: political taking a look at president biden's agenda. two-high-profile meetings and

one at turkey and turkey clearing the way to let sweden joined the alliance and that announcement happening ahead of the summit and president biden expecting to meet with volodymyr zelenskyy at the summit to watch -- and a very closely watched meeting. it is -- the summit is in -- vilnius is where the summit is taking place. the issues focusing one environmental issue -- focusing on environmentalism. here's what president biden had to say. [video clip] >> is great to have you here. you have been here a few times. your first time as president. we are fortunate to have you here. right breast to carry on our conversation which we were having a month or so ago -- rates for us to carry on a

conversation which we were having a month or so ago. how do we strengthen our cooperation and join economic security to the benefit of her citizens. -- of our citizens. i know we want to do everything we can to strengthen europe and atlantic security. >> it is good to be back. we met in san diego, belfast, hiroshima, washington. you couldn't be a closer friend a greater ally and we have a lot to talk about. [indiscernible] our relationship is rocksolid. in the united states. host: president biden in london

yesterday, one note on that meeting from, the wrapup from it. rishi sunak, third prime minister joe biden has worked with since taking office in what they described as eight to motor was moment in the u.k. -- eight to mull to his moment in the u.k. -- a tumultuous moment in the u.k. host: do you think it is about right? there was a gallup poll from earlier this year that took a look at the same question. the way they pose the question, are you satisfied with the u.s. position in the world? 37% of respondents said they were and 61% of democrats said they are satisfied with the u.s. position in the world. 11% of republicans, and

independents coming in at 38%. that pulling from gallup we have been looking at available for you at gallup.com. good morning. caller: and you hear me? -- can you hear me? host: yes sir. caller: i think it is just right. hopefully, someone can answer this question. we are between a rock and a hard place. if we don't take them out, they will be there. one area we are still in trouble, what will happen? if president biden doesn't send them in, they will be there and if we take them out, something will happen in the future so if someone can answer that question for me, and thank you for taking my call. host: to david in l.a.

caller: the morning -- good morning. i wanted to say this issue with ukraine is a big deal and i don't know enough people understand why it is a big deal. if putin is allowed to take any territory in ukraine because of this war, it is setting a precedent and basically it is offending the entire peace process we have had since world war ii. i don't think we are doing enough because putin is weak. the army is demoralized. we should be taking advantage of this opportunity. i have been hearing about the diplomatic settlement. i don't know how that is going to play out but, my understanding is that russia has a major naval base in crimea and

that was the reason they took over crimea. if they have a diplomatic settlement in ukraine and president zelenskyy does not want to give up any territory, perhaps they can have a settlement where the naval base, the russians naval base could be like what tom and no -- could be like what tom no baby -- look -- could be like guantanamo bay. host: this is diane. caller: good morning. i agree -- i think we should give ukraine those cluster bombs because putin is using cluster bombs on ukraine and saying he is using those cluster bombs. host: i got your thoughts on cluster bombs. what about the u.s. role when it comes to world affairs? caller: we should be there

because if we are not there, and we appear we, we can have folks trying to come back right over here in america. we have to defend and we have to do what is right and i am thinking about our military because we could end up in -- men fighting and one fighting over there. china and putin and iran, they all want to be world powers. leaders, the number one leaders and we need to defend countries around the world. look at africa. they are taking things over there and they are trying to get over here. that is too close to home. they are trying to get to cuba. we cannot be isolation a list because if we don't, we will be next. i hope joe biden keeps doing what he is doing and that is why

in 2016, trump -- putin helped trump. we don't know what they talk about with the meeting in helsinki. this didn't happen until now because putin was going to take you -- ukraine. we would not have been supporting those people. give them bombs. host: we always ask for your comments, via social media and here are a few. from this question -- on this question we asked about the u.s. role in world affairs. james saying it is not enough. this is tony in boston.

steve saying it is way too much, so much that even our allies resent us for us -- it. this from carlos in delaware. a few other comments from social media and text messaging service, (202) 748-8003 if you want to send a text. we have been talking about president biden trips in the natal summit. -- nato summit.

" president biden has gone to with three any -- has gone to lithuania to attend the summit. that is some serious stuff, all of this is not lost on the republican national committee. mickey, through his trip, the organization noted that before arriving in lithuania, the president stopped in britain to talk with king charles, our primary focus of the gathering to address climate change. president biden -- departed the vilnius -- in -- airport in a motorcade. the entry was titled, joe biden is a climate him click -- hypocrite." host: this is victoria, milltown, ohio. caller: good morning.

ever since world war ii, the united states' war is out racket -- a racket. we have got into everywhere began to keep warm manufacturing is going. we can't vote against the military doing things or that will cost us jobs. we are always doing this for money. every bit of it is for money. host: that is victoria. this is margaret in the cowboy state, wyoming. good morning. caller: good morning. we are doing way too much. way too much and then not enough. the real issue is the leadership of the united states of america and the biting --biden regime is

competent -- compromise. they kowtow to china. as far as ukraine goes, we do not know how corrupt and compromise president biden himself is so how can we rely upon any decisions made by his administration regarding ukraine? joe biden is providing and his -- to his legacy and not the american people. host: this is bill in georgia. caller: good morning. i think we are doing about enough. i think it is notable that when the former president met with putin for 1.5 hours and came back, he saw was an autocratic states was. --state was and he did try to

attack nato funding and it is notable that nato has decided -- the countries of nato have decided that the 2%, that was the figure, rather than being a maximum is now a minimum, they are providing more money. i think that president biden in his talks with the president of turkey to finally get him to -- allow nato to grow, nato is a huge fear that putin has. he does not like being surrounded and he understands that if he attacks one of the nato countries then all other countries will be on him. he is being pushed into a corner and he -- where the former

president saw benefits after an hour long conversation to autocracy and has done whatever he could to do it. i think president biden, given all of his experience, is under -- understands the world better. and is getting our country and in alliance with the rest of the free world. in a better spot. with regards to china, we don't know what those discussions had brought forth. we have assumptions and those are silly. this came as a surprise and we might be surprised with some of the conversations that happened with china so i will sum it all

up by saying, i think the president, given his experience, has gained wisdom and i think it is absolutely masterful. i think that the decision by nato, the decisions by nato to make sure that russia does not take over ukraine is brilliant. it is simply what ought to happen. host: let me come back to your comments about nato expanding and the decision announced by turkey to allow sweden to join. it takes all 31 existing members of nato to agree to adding any more members tomato. the wall street journal taking a

look at the back and forth over sweden's membership. they write -- the president of turkey has expanded his influence within nato using negotiations of alliance to bring concessions to western leaders. " -- abide in emmett -- -- he has the biden administration except where he wants. he is forcing nato allies to drop their policies of isolation." said one policy analyst. the story goes that in president biden efforts -- president biden's efforts to drop -- the administration had signed off on approval of a $20 billion sale of a new f-16 warplane to turkey, part of the effort that

the biden administration used to push turkey to allow sweden to join. that reporting from the wall street journal. 10 minutes left in this opening segment of the washington journal and we are asking you about the u.s. wall of world affairs -- u.s. role of world affairs. phone numbers for all those answers. this is john in california. good morning. caller: we are spending too much and people don't understand the u.s. is the most propagandized country in the world. we don't have a good ideal on what is going on and what is being done to us. they don't understand that if you look at the think tanks in the u.s. and you can see it written out before it has happened. even the russia and ukraine think and zelenskyy was getting worried.

he already sold out the country, privatized the stuff sold to western corporations. you can see it in front of wall street saying that ukraine is open for sale. he changed their loss --laws. host: is there any aspect of the government right now that you do trust? is there an institution that you do have faith in right now when it comes to u.s. government? caller: um, there are some good american people that are willing to tell you the truth about what is going on. i mean, forever, they say it is one thing but -- the aids are

the weapons for things to dig up for lent so they can steal the country. for not even us and if you look at it, only a few get wealthy, people in this country have jobs -- don't have jobs and living in their charts. people are getting poorer. everyone is getting upset with each other and adding taken advantage of by corporate media and i note you are sitting there and you know so much is going on and i don't understand you don't educate the people. it is easily disproven if you dig. if you type in google, everything that comes up is corporate -- the bbc telling the same lie over and over again. host: john in california. this is virginia in orlando, florida. caller: thank you for taking my call. i think you for doing this -- i

thank you for doing this. i don't think president biden is doing enough work ukraine. -- four ukraine. if russia wins in ukraine, his next trip will be to the united states and start bombing us and i feel he needs to send the cluster bombs and whatever bombs he needs to send over there to let putin know that he cannot go around killing children and old people like he has been doing. he has been murdered. -- he has murdered women that heart -- our pregnant. they need to get more money and need to participate more. if they have these cluster bombs, get them together because the only thing that putin understands is that one someone goes against him, he knows they mean business.

the u.s, do you have common sense to note that if you don't fight the war in ukraine, they will fight over here? do we want him over here? you have to stop and while you can and it is nonsense. the thing that happens in the last administration, foods and got comfortable because he knew that trump would let him do anything he wanted him to do. trying to buy land over here, we can buy land in china. china is doing whatever in africa. the united states is not over there and they should be over there supporting africa buying land like china is doing and there are a lot of rings that i feel president biden is doing the very best he can -- considering the congress he has. he is doing a great job but he has to get serious. i know they said, -- this man is

sending cluster bombs and he does not clear. --he does not care. host: you mentioned the congress that president biden has and the congress is in session. the senate returns at 10 a.m. eastern and you can watch coverage on c-span two. the house is in at noon and one hearing that you can watch at 10 a.m. eastern this morning, pga tour executives set to testify on the group partnership with liv golf. the torah -- the tour owned by saudi arabia. it is live on c-span3 and you can watch on c-span now, our free mobile video app and c-span.org. one other hearing to keep on your radar, tomorrow, at 10 a.m., fbi director is set to

testify before the house judiciary committee. live coverage on c-span3 10 a.m. eastern and available tomorrow on the c-span now app. this is tony in long island, new york. caller: hi. i want to say that the u.s. is a imperious -- imperialist power and a war mining -- and a warmongering power. it cannot be trusted. they were talking about the cluster bombs, the reason they got banned was the u.s. is bombing range -- it is considered the most bombing -- bombed country in the world -- 54 countries are under western sanctions and most of which are

spearheaded by the u.s. the u.s. makes up 40% of the global arms trade and has almost a hundred military bases worldwide and spends more on its military does the next 10 countries combined. or is a racket -- war is a racket. we need to close military bases and end u.s. military involvement. nato needs to be abolished and nato's current actions against russia to expand china -- must -- much of it was rooted in anti-communism. it does not serve the people. it serves the capitalist class. host: we asked via a twitter poll this question, what role does u.s. player in world affairs, what do you think it should be?

48% says it is too much of a role in foreign affairs. 9% says it is too small a role. another 43% saying it is about right. one of those twitter bowls, -- polls. caller: good morning. if president trump was in office, this would never happen. and he met with putin and his white house, he did not go talk with putin over there. and also president biden spoke to this, i'm sorry, yet he did, but he was also talking with the chinese president whatever you call him. but anyhow, communism is here now in the united states. -- there is a lot of affiliation with communist with our citizens

and politicians. president trump lobes america, he took no paycheck. it is just that we have to open our eyes to see what is really happening to our country. expand and conquer, that is what the nazis, that is what every socialist country did to overtook anything. chaos and conquer. host: that is our lane. our last color in the first segment of washington journal. we will be joined by al weaver to discuss campaign 2024 and a battle for the u.s. senate and later author and political scientist lead draftsman -- lee drutman discusses his proposal to expand the number of political parties in the u.s. stick around. we will be right back. ♪

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debates and points of interest highlights our there. if you -- they are on the right-hand side of your screen and you can select play video. scroll through and spend a few minutes on this. -- anytime online netbook tv.org. television for serious readers. -- book tv.org. television for sellers -- serious readers. announcer: c-span has the best book recommendations for you -- q&a here wide-ranging conversations with authors and

others. book notes plus episode have a week -- hours long conversation that have nonfiction authors on a wide variety of topics. and this podcast takes you behind the scenes of the non-publishing industry with insider overview, industry updates, and best sellers list. download our c-span now app or where ever get our podcasts or on our website c-span.org /podcasts. announcer: washington journal continues. host: we have 80 days to go until election day 2024. we welcome al weaver -- you just recently released a piece about the five most likely to flip. when you mean five seats, you mean virginia, wisconsin, and others. and no republicans it's

currently in the five seats of what is say about the senate battle in 2024? guest: republicans have a unique opportunity. they are playing with the territory with a bunch of red states. you have virginia, and the same in montana and ohio. it is gotten more red over the years. it is a prime opportunity in those seat for a pick up where they think they probably should take majority. in the last cycle, and a host of democratics also said that they think this could be the year. host: 49 and -- one independent. democrats making of the razor thin majority. and joe manchin is at the top of the list, why? guest: a couple things unlike esther he is a little more

vulnerable this time around. he has not announced that he is running for reelection. his numbers are not fantastic. when you look at the approval ratings, they are not doing too great given his work for [indiscernible] last year. but that is the main thing for mansion right there -- joe manchin right there. and chief justice is running for the group of republicans. he is in really good shape there and one of the voices of the primary challenge. they are feeling really good out there. host: you mentioned that joe manchin might run for president? guest: there has been some chatter. host: is that why he is holding off on announcing a bid? guest: i don't think so. what you here with him is they

expected to do this in 2018. 2018 he went until the day before in january and then announced he was running again. they expect the same again. and that lines up with that. most people seem to think that no matter -- no labels and third-party presidential bid that he owed to mentally will not do it. host: on the republican side jim justice and alex mooney set up a potential i marry battle -- primary battle. and that is one through the republican race right now. guest: justice is a wealthy man, to turn -- two-term governor, and extremely popular. he just took maryland and now west virginia. he beat a establishment election

against mckinley last year. he is one tough racist and he has admitted that before and he has overcome that. and so -- he says that he's going to have to get some support. and it is a matter of if they want better not because he is very formidable and he is a top candidate in the state. host: i want to invite viewers to join the discussion as usual from the line for the democrats --democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. you said you put joe manchin just above jon tester in the country. so why would chester be right there? guest: because he is also in this type of state where republicans think they have a

massive advantage. there are so many more republicans than democrats and this is also the presidential cycle. no matter what some of the democrats want to do they have the -- presidential year. you have president biden on the ballot next year and potentially former president trump and ron desantis. it will be a big driver for republicans of who will be at the top. right now they are excited that they got -- viz. businessman in the race. he's been in the deck -- race for a decade now. a war veteran and he is likely running against matt rosendale. or rabble-rouser who made life difficult for kevin mccarthy early this year. we will see what happens in the race but republicans feel good about him and i think this could be the year finally. host: jon tester 03 term -- a

three term -- how will he win in a state that is usually more friendly for republicans? guest: he ran in 2018 which was not a bad year for democrats. senate race was not as good but he prevailed. he is a strong candidate and a montana and that is one argument that they will make he is more of a montana native compared to others. an tester has been born and raised there. that will be the democrat debate he will be the right person for the right state at the right time. host: people who are calling who want to talk to you, but let me ask one more. for a state that is turning more red, should they try to -- should sherrod brown try to win this election? guest: absolutely. he is tough to beat. he is a good fundraiser.

he identifies with the state very row -- very well. and people on the ballot that represent their state very well they pop up -- they talk about this with brown. -- sheriff brown is another one in this tester mold who is very tough to beat. he is a democratic incumbent who is a good fundraiser. he identifies the state very well. that is a big thing democrats are looking for for sure people on the ballots that represent the state well. they talk about it with brown and others. he will be a tough out and probably be as tough as brace -- in 2018 he ran and defeated a candidate who is not a great candidate back then.

host: he won by six points back then that trump carried by eight points in 2020. guest: correct. when you look back to 2016 when trump won big and he won by double points. host: talking about the senate battlefield with the seats most likely to flip. we can talk about the races you want to talk about as well it does not have to be these five. aloe weaver -- owl weaver -- owl -- al weaver discusses campaign here to take your calls. caller: with this agreement court decisions, and the economy they will be big issues in the 2024 campaign.

what will the republicans actually do -- what will be the posse that they will actually run on? host: thank you for the call in minneapolis. you bring up a good point. in 2022 a lot of credit for democrats unexpected success was due to the dobbs decision in overturning roe v. wade. the supreme court in 2024. guest: you will see a couple things the abortion argument is not going away anytime soon. in the house races, you see it on the senate ballot as well. people message on abortion and do it with what they think is success. democrats had a big turnout for that a couple years ago. i think you will see a lot especially, this issue is not going away. every week there is a new battle of -- at the state level.

seems like every couple weeks you have a new staying with the six week and being thrown out. it will stay in the news and democrats will make sure it is in the news. i think you will see that and the other thing you will see is this [indiscernible] throughout the affirmative action and the president land on student debt. -- plan on student debt. i expect visiting on that as well. host: let's focus on one who is not caucus with either party. the state of arizona. guest: it is the turkey of the four states at this point. there's a lot of moving variables and whether cinema runs again --sinema runs again, she fundraiser like she should in q1, we have not seen the q2

numbers yet but republicans will likely be stuck with kari lake would whether they like it or not. she has not announced that she will run but all signal is -- signals are pointing in that direction. it might be more palatable to some national republicans taste. it will be an interesting race and the democrat running out there is ruben gallego is doing everything he needs to do and fundraising at a strong label -- level. he's doing everything in the kratz want him to do at this point. -- democrats want him to do at this point. -- not at this point they are waiting to see how this shakes out. democrats are still wary across sinema at this point because they still need a lot of things. they have judicial nominations they still need her support on

to get over the edge. and they have her with number of other issues where they need her support. they do not want to anger her. host: the expectation is they probably will not be running negative ads sponsored by the democratic editorial campaign? guest: everything is cbd they have kept open everything at this point. -- tbd they have kept everything open at this point. host: july 15 we will start to see those numbers and how these races are shaping up. guest: we saw this over the last week how people want to put out good numbers. host: those that did not do so great wait until the 15th. the friday before. guest: yes, you see that and it all comes out at one time in. host: this is james for republicans. we are speaking with al weaver about the senate battle. go ahead. caller: my question is if you

look at the polls in 2022 looks like republican will win by a red wave. they only have five seats. my question is if the republican party don't learn how to lay the election game -- play the election game that democrats do, [indiscernible] already 800,000 votes before -- it does not matter who we put up, if we do not learn to get out and get to early voting, we ain't gonna window. i don't care who we put up. we put jesus up, but if we don't get the votes, we will lose. that is why we did not do well in 2022. it had nothing to do with the candidates, we just couldn't get voters out on election day. thank you. guest: that is an issue republicans will have to deal with this cycle. former president trump is out there saying you cannot trust anyone to vote early.

you have to wait until election day. issues for republicans last time created chaos. and we have heard speaker mccarthy in the last couple years voting early. this is how you get this done and it is effective and nonfraudulent. host: one c-span viewer ask how tim ryan how ohio is looking j.d. vance winning that race. and does senator portman draw anything from the 2022 race or does he have enough experience in ohio to know what he needs to do? guest: round the last couple cycles has gone ahead and done everything he needs to do. he's made the case to ohio saying he is the guy -- that is needed in congress, he fights for unions, fights for the little guy, and that his

argument he will make this time around. he raised a lot of money in the last quarter about $5 million and you will see more of that. they need to win that race but the trendline in ohio is unmistakable. whether a republican presidential candidate can wash them away is a great question that democrats will ramble with. host: how many terms is sherrod brown at this point? guest: i believe it is his fourth. he's been there -- a while. host: good morning caller from washington dc. caller: good morning. the president tends to -- the candidate tends to pick somebody from the opposing party with different views. for the vice president in order to bolster and broaden some of their campaigns. in the case of desantis, if he took gabbert who is the most

researched person in the democratic debates, she is a little bit more left, she brings , definitely brings the middle and some of the left. and the far left are only concerned about skin color and genitalia, she will also bring them in. so that will be a match that will be personally impossible to beat. that is my recommendation for desantis. anyway, thank you. host: would you like to talk prep -- vice presidential picks or is it too early? guest: i think you will see desantis first up he is down by 30 point in the polls right now. he is hoping he can make his way through iowa. host: only two points according to -- politics polls. guest: allow it is higher. he needs to givens of credit for that. he desantis is trying to work his way out about but it is a

long game for presidential politics. everyone's mind is on iowa. the republicans that do not like donald trump, they think they can get a foothold there a little bit. we will see what happens with desantis and it is a good story with vice presidential politics. we have a story over the weekend with kim reynolds, she is staying neutral but tight with dissenters in recent years. under a republican governor. that is one of the things to watch. host: we are talking vice presidential politics, cal tullis -- cal tom is in his article in the washington times says vice president harris unknown language makes it hard to articulate at times. that is a headline there. -- about 20 minutes left without weaver and he will be with us -- with al weaver he will be with

us another 20 minutes. you can call in democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. your column has wisconsin as number five which is tammy bollen. guest: she is a strong democrat a tough one for the republican cycle. this is a presidential year and republicans do well in wisconsin. they have a chance and that is that simple. they look at a couple of those -- and a businessman in wisconsin. he lost in 2012. they are hopeful that they can take her down but it will be tough. baldwin is in a group of -- a cluster of democrats who all share the same traits. you have her and bob, and

jackie. they are all in those states. republicans could do well. given the trendline and whatnot. and republicans are trying to get there feel. there trying to get mccormick in the race there. and they got sam brown in the race out8 in nevada to take on jacky rosen. i think we will see all of the races and republicans have a tense in all of those. they may but right now democrats have a competitive in vantage -- competitive advantage in all three states. host: democrats claim they can go in offense this cycle. texas debate have a shot at ted cruz? guest: they may think they do. but we have heard this story of how democrats pick it roads in

texas, but whether they can knock off one of the candidate is a toll order. they tried this in 2020 with hager and cornyn. and in 2018 they came in closer than any democrat in recent memory. raise more money as well. and ted cruz still beat him by 10 and he was unpopular at the time. he was not a great candidate and now he is stronger. host: from the newspaper this morning roland gutierrez democratic state senator has been outspoken gun control component since that massacre in uvalde, texas. representative: an congressman from the dallas area declared his candidacy in may. so that primary will have to play out who will take on cruise. -- ted cruz. guest: that is correct but they

are casting with all red. it is a strong candidate -- in any other state he would be a good candidate for senate but ted cruz in texas it will be extraordinarily tough. he is well-liked individual, but the issue is that he has that ted cruz can message on him easily and say we voted for nancy pelosi x percent of the time the last couple years and that is a little tougher in 2018 . he was a moderate at the time not saying he will take your guns. he ran a strong race where he lost and ran for president. it will be interesting to watch but i think it is a high nomenclature. host: delay have nancy pelosi -- x number of times when she is not speaker anymore area guest: absolutely that is not going anywhere republicans still message against her. i do not see that going anywhere anytime soon they know more about her than they do hakeem

jeffries. host: tennessee you are on. caller: have been listening to corporate media spread the word again. what you're doing is underestimating these young voters. they young voters are not going for republican, i do not want nobody discriminating against transgender. they want school rights and they want to be left alone. the way republicans have this country, the young voters will change it in this election they showed it in the last election and that is all i have to say. guest: yeah, i think college students and young voters every cycle go through this every time around and there is a reason for them get out this time. and i don't know which way you are on but the affirmative action at supreme last week laser role there. -- plays a role there. and i think you will see students, but the question is

whether they can make or break the difference. as has been questioned in recent years. how much more they can squeeze out about i do not know, and whether republicans make inroads i doubt. that will come out and vote and democrats will put a lot of money in a few laces to get the vote out. and madison, wisconsin is democratic bastion. students will always play a role in that sense. host: theresa in the natural state asks what about utah? romney's age is mid 70's and he did not support lee in 2020. guest: the reason i did not include that is because it is not going to flip. it may, it may change hands eventually, but romany -- romney has an opening this time around.

utah is different than most other republican health states. mormons are the predominant bloating -- voting bloc in the state. they vote differently than others in the republican space. and in 2018 he is still held at high regard. we will see. romney is divisive on the republican side -- but i do not know if i would doubt him again. host: georgia, independent. good morning. you are on with al weaver. caller: good morning. c-span, i thought so for i called already of my representatives here in georgia and called all of the federal representatives and centers and -- senators and state senators. i have a question maybe you guys can give me that or maybe somebody in your audience to me the answer to it.

what is the punishment for voter fraud. -- hang you by the neck if you are dead. if you commit treason what is the punishment? nobody so far and give me an answer to that question. do you have an answer to that question i would appreciate it. host: voter laws in the state of georgia. guest: i cannot speak to that but what i can say is basically it varies from state to state. i know that much. georgia a believe is pushing for another election package through the state legislature. that became big news after the 2020 election. we will have to see on that. you will hear former president trump talking about voter fraud and election fraud. some republicans have pleaded to not do it. we will say.

election rod will play a role in this primary. host: you may check out the secretary of state office for georgia. occasionally with their news releases about cases referred for prosecution for voter rod -- voter fraud in 2020 where there was some cases for the election fraud in georgia. and criminal prosecution has been pursued into any 20. but that is something i found at the secretary of state website they can be help all on the front. al weaver will be with us another 10 minutes or so this morning. i want to shift from the senate battle to others senate coverage. what we are covering today at 10 a.m. on c-span is the pga hearing what are you watching for? guest: a few things. 1 -- i am a golf fan and i watch

the sport a lot and one of the things we have questions about is what is in this deal, this supportive deal? i do not think anybody knows this. some are speculating whether there is actually a deal or a deal to have a deal. i wonder -- i'm curious to see what the pga executive has to say about it. we will not hear much from the two main individuals for the testimony they are not showing up, greg norman, the former major winner, and alex live, and the -- i do not know if we will ever see him in front of congress. it will be interesting and interesting events. and they have a subcommittee on investigations -- host: was there any thought about subpoenaing the liv golf representative? guest: i don't think he wants to go there yet but they left the

door open. the argument from republicans about this is why are we wasting our time on this? -- he wants to hear what will happen with all of this stuff at this is just the beginning because they have promised more hearings. he was the pga to come before the committee and at some point he is on medical leave until the beginning of next week. we will see what happens on this. this is not going the way and it is a story a lot of people are reading about. host: this is the second homeland security and governmental affairs subcommittee. on c-span3 or you can watch on c-span.org or the c-span now app. and of classified briefing, we will not have cameras in it, but there will be a hearing on artificial intelligence3. one of the first briefings we

have had in congress. guest: it is a verse classified briefing in ai that the senate has ever had and they are being briefed today by top white house officials. -- for senate majority leader schumer and mike brown, todd young, and often heimer are focused on national security. ai is being deployed against the u.s. and what the u.s. can do about it in the future. i do not think we will see this situation go away either. they want legislation at some point and i do not know how realistic that is. it is tough to put a bill together when you do not know much about ai. number two, it is filling up in question. people are still learning about it.

there is not a consensus. i'm curious to see what senators have to say. host: i was going to say how does a reporter cover classified briefing? guest: we will have them discuss what they learn. host: are we expecting leaders to discuss this after their lunches? guest: i am sure schumer will talk about it he has been vocal about it. and i'm curious to hear what other folks have to say. host: it is time for a few more calls with al weaver if you want to chat with him. tina, alabama, republican. good morning. caller: thank you. what you think about the phone tracking with the mules being used on the ballot -- the same thing the fbi used for rotating those who had been part of orion

on january 6 the riots on january 6. guest: what was the question? i did not as ackley here. host: questions about -- i did not exactly here. host: questions about election fraud. guest: -- a lady just called in and she is curious about it as well. this is an issue that republican candidates will have to rapport with whether they want to talk about it or not -- have to grapple with it whether they want to talk about it or not. -- the majority of primary voters have it more slim than that. host: we just went through a debt ceiling standoff with the interviewer. richard in the villages in florida said when is the national debt going to come --

become an issue for young voters. i'm surprised that young voters are not out rolling cars over. guest: they always care about issues that are more personal to them they are not exactly worried about finances other than student debt issues. college students, they generally just care about other things. host: let me get you one last call. this is gerrit in wilmington, delaware. democrats you are on for delaware. caller: hello i heard you talking about the debt. are we still on that? i want to know i understand that the supreme court said that the biden -- that biden did not have the ability to just forgive student loan debt. i'm trying to figure out the difference between what he proposed initially and this new way he is trying to go about it saying that this will take a little longer.

what exactly is going on and how does that differ to give authority as his last action that he tries to take? the issue with biden -- guest: the issue with biden and student debt all came down to the -- whether he had the authority to do it. it was about 400 million or billion, it was one of the illio ns. the supreme court was not about it. and he is probably going to go back. i don't know whether he thinks he has the authority to do anything additionally, i do not think congress will do anything to touch the subject. it will just be a point for the democrats coming into the election. they will go out and say president biden went out and did this and the maga in the supreme court said that they

blocked it. but he is the one that tried to help students get relief from a burden. republicans will say it was a slap in the face of all the people who ate off students loans -- student loans the last couple years. what about them? host: that house in at noon, a busy day for national political reporter al weaver. head of the newspaper. i will let you get up there and talk to members. guest: thank you. host: 9:15 eastern this morning we speak with lee druckman to discuss -- lee drutman but first we have open forum any public policy or political issue you want to talk about these are the numbers to do so. the numbers are on screen. we will get right to your calls after the break. ♪

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app. or wherever you get your podcast or on our website c-span.org /podcasts. announcer: washington journal continues. host: 40 minutes here, 35 minutes to go to our open orb. any policy issue or political issue you want to talk about this is part of the program where we turn on the phone lines and leave the discussion to you. democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. as you call in, we want to show you senate majority leader chuck schumer yesterday on the floor outlining a busy schedule for senators hoping for bipartisanship in the few week left ear before they leave for the august recess. here is a portion of his remarks. >> is ascendant gavels back in, to build on our historic work the last few years, to

strengthen our economy and make the life better for the american people and do it in a bipartisan manner whenever possible. a little over a month ago both parties came together to avoid a catastrophic default on national debt while agreeing on spending levels that will keep our country and economy strong. this month, the work from funding the government will continue. it will not be easy, but it must be done with good faith and bipartisan work. i am pleased so far that this process is moving along in the senate with the appropriations committee with regular order in a bipartisan way. we will do everything we can to remain and ensure that it remains that way. in another act of bipartisanship, on something equally significant, the senate will move forward on the annual national defense authorization act so we can keep our sick -- our country safe.

support ukraine, and give our troops the payraise they deserve. i think ranking member week for moving the fda armed services committee last month. i hope we can move quickly on it here in the floor in july. these two areas, appropriations and the defense act are the prime examples of the bipartisan work you want to see in the senate and which i have worked with my colleagues to foster. host: senate majority leader chuck schumer on the floor yesterday with a fresh set of leader remarks coming after 10 a.m. eastern today after the senate gavels in today. we can watch gavel-to-gavel coverage on c-span two the house is set to come in at noon today. you can watch gavel coverage here on the span. it is open-door -- open forum, a call from pensacola, florida.

david. what is on your mind? caller: and i we are in open form but we just had a speaker on the program what was the name of the speaker. host: al weaver of the hill newspaper. caller: ok i have an issue with that. i will address the last segment. a woman and both you and the desk ignored her because you are not listening to her at all. she asked specifically about a law enforcement technology referring to the movie 2000 mules with regard to election tampering. it was not a question about election integrity it was about specific investigative technique and phone tracking. how law enforcement uses to do that. she asked about the comparison between the fbi use of the technology to go after protesters on january 6 and how it is juxtaposed with what what -- i forgot the guy that did the document. host: the nest to susan?

caller: yes. she asked how that mass with that and you just made a generic response and you entirely ignored the question. it always makes me -- every time i listen to the program you guys are becoming like -- you in -- ignored her i don't know -- why. host: i don't know much about it. this may be an issue that you no more than me about it. caller: i'm a retired criminal investigator we used it to fight crime. the fbi used it to target citizens. i wish that both you or the guest would actually listen to the question. it was very frustrating. host: any more thoughts on it since you have the time? caller: no i would like to point out the hypocrisy. i'm not doing it to condemn you i hope you take this lesson and move forward with it instead of being biased. host: that is david in florida.

gordon in kansas city, missouri. good morning. caller: yes thank you for taking my call. i almost threw up when you put schumer on this early in the morning. please don't do that anymore. and what i see, that old man is overseas making us look, i am embarrassed because of him. we have no president, we have a bunch of puppeteers behind bringing in all the communist socialist crap. we've got to get him and those idiots out of their. host: president biden currently oversees in a meeting and meeting with the lithuania president. and he had the usual photograph and the family photo as they call it with the this event of the nato summit meeting with the with any and president as he

arrived. and we have our coverage -- lou thain en -- lithuanian president. president biden will be there all day and tomorrow. we have a caller from democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning. i want to make a comment. are you still there? hello? host: yes sir. caller: i want to give a call and -- this was nonsense -- listen, use some common sense about something. it is always republican and whining about this and that, voter fraud and all the

nonsense, [indiscernible] these right weighing extremist -- right wing extremist when they get on the phone and they talk about crime, they talk about black people. and they think about voter fraud they think about black people. they are not talking about whites. i'm 91 years old i've already seen a lot of things in my life. if you're wrong you are wrong and if you are right you are right. -- if your democrat you are wrong. [indiscernible] they absolutely just -- they make it common sense and they are always complaining and complaining about biden and that kind of stuff. [indiscernible] because republicans, they want everything to go their way. anything that they disagree with

but, i just listen to them all the time and i could say more, but do not be pulled by these people because when they are thinking about crime, there is more crime committed in the southern state and the democrats how all of the nonsense stuff. -- these are conservatives. that is the problem of slavery and growth. they still have a law that they are trying to pass. the conservatives this is what i want the conservatives to know. people want to complain saying you are not being fair. it is bs and another thing they do, you talked about hunter biden, that is not going to make people -- people are not going

to the levers for hunter biden. -- joe biden. euro twice as likely -- with joe biden they threatened to throw him in jail. -- you sit up there and talk about hunter biden. does knowing -- not going to make people -- people will not pull levers for hunter biden, they will not do it or joe biden. and one term, -- could not set his foot over there where joe biden is going. [indiscernible] so you all need to grow up, stop supporting a one term, -- i'm going to leave it at that thank you for my call. host: joan, republican.

good morning. caller: i have a comment i would like to express to the commentators and so forth. the thing i wish most is that the people that come on or that you guys quit using the word power and control. i don't like to think of anybody having control over us including the supreme court. i don't think anybody should have the power to take over the people. that is my remark about that because they are supposed to be doing our bidding, not telling us what to do. and why don't we use opponent, they are supposed to be taking care of us, not taking control and having power over us. i think it is about time that the people got their voice back in the people that get on the radios and make the comment clean up their act and act like

grown-ups and do something to the good to help us, not to have more problems. i think you for your time. host: when it comes to the supreme court the word usa today uses on the front page story is influence. john roberts reasserting his influence in the latest term that just ended. the court decision reflects alliances with both sides. yesterday it was on the senate floor that senator mitch mcconnell, minority leader was talking about the supreme court. the word he used was unpredictability when it came to the ideological event of the court fist term. this is the senate yesterday area >> in case after case the exceptionally qualified justice in washington have sent -- spent years to vilify continue to

prove their strength and independent [indiscernible] justice barrett was just as likely this term to go with just his cave as was justice thomas. let me say again justice barrett was just as likely this term to go with justice kagan as with justice thomas. justice kavanaugh likely to show -- vote with just. and the most conservative justices, thomas and alito, devoted to gather less frequently than liberal justices. -- for supreme court is not in crisis, it refuses to reliably and predictably request advancement. the court is not in crisis when it puts a touch to our law above politics. the supreme court is -- important branch of government and it should continue to do its job. host: senator mitch mcconnell

yesterday on the floor. it is an open form another 25 minutes of open form. democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. this is phil, st. louis, missouri. that morning. caller: hey. your last call in the last set it -- segment about student debt, and i think is her weaver was talking about the heroes act which is the roberts court, i think the second or plan b is higher education. this is in the paper i got yesterday. the higher education act allows provision for the secretary of education to cockrum -- compromise or release the right -- or demand however acquired including equity or right of redemption.

this is the message to education secretary majel bogart owners said the process for the heroes act was quicker given -- the comment period. the white house was able to initiate applications for its initial student debt relief plan in a matter of weeks. last year about before the midterm election. it goes on to say it will take at least a year for the administration to go through those required procedures under this higher education act. meaning the final ruling will not be announced until fall 2024. that is currently before the presidential election. i think that is plan b and why it will take longer. it was the first step for the relief on student debt. host: and what was the paper you are reading from? caller: it is carrying a story from bloomberg news. host: got it i saw that post. viewers can look at the new york

times as well. how biden might try to cancel student debt next. the administration proposed to use its compromise settlement powers under -- 1965 act, and it explains what that means but the bloomberg article as well. anything else on that. thank you for joining in the producing of the segment today. thank you for your help. caller: you're welcome goodbye. host: isaiah, independent new jersey. good morning. caller: hello i just wanted to say i love america and a lovely you guys are doing on c-span. i think that now is the time where we cultivate all that is around and give the voice back to the people. see what the people can come up with. we should be hand in hand with the government. and we should get more laws and

more fluidity. let me ask -- host: we ask you a question because it pertains to our upcoming guests. how do you feel about political parties in the country? caller: i feel like everybody has -- i feel like we do wonderful thing where everybody has the right to speak their own mind. host: are you still with us? [indiscernible] caller: independent because i do not mesh well with the artese right now. but i would say if the new party -- -- the parties right now but i would say if the new party [indiscernible] host: stick around for the upcoming session. the proposal to create more parties in this country. stick around for that discussion.

joe is in california republican. good morning. caller: hello. i just wanted to comment, we need to gather our marines and vote for the best person to run the country. i want trump to wn the next election -- when the next election. and -- thank you. host: what gives you that confidence? i think we lost her. stephen in regina, good morning. caller: good morning. -- stephen in virginia, democrat good morning. caller: good morning. i am hearing all of the mag republicans calling in, and you challenged, but i appreciate

where you ask where people get their sources and you just did that with the independent color about the student loans. you do that to a maggot person they bridle the 2000 mule thing. there is nothing to this. the hunter biden laptop thing with the misinformation was about hunter biden having a laptop, it was about what they would make up about what would be on the laptop like they did with hillary clinton emails. they went through the research and they found all the emails. she was not able to delete them all because they have backup and all kinds of things. i appreciate c-span, keep challenging those individuals, they don't have good sources. all of it is made up. host: before you go what news sites do you go for your information? caller: brown news they do a good job of circulating the right and the left and tell people what is covered by fox,

c-span, npr, and other sources. then they throw it out there and they have blind spots to the left and right. that is one. i listen to a lot of -- and i get news from you guys and i listen in and sure enough all these folks are talking about all their crazy ideas from uninformed sources. and there is a podcast in fox news. people should subscribe to that. what they do is, she does a great job of comparing fox news coverage to pbs coverage. pbs coverage and fox news. they did not hear any of the news. they probably do not even know the dominion of more host: that is stephen in vienna, virginia.

facing questions on joe biden and russia. it will be live at 10 :00 a.m. eastern. that is be not -- being broadcast and c-span three. what is on your mind? caller: to begin with, fox news is a propaganda hack. nothing more, nothing less. they have hatred of all black people in america. it is obvious. host: you think the whole

organization hate black people in america? what makes you say that? host: this is nancy in missouri, publican. caller: social security is on my mind. have never heard my plan that would work to get my money back. that is somewhere far away there is a paper that is saying what department that borrowed years

ago and what did they use it for and they should be the one to pay it back. i am a one-time caller for some color but i listened every morning and i love to listen to it. i think my idea would solve the social security problem. host: what was the timing that made it today the first time you wanted to call about it? it has been on my mind. wait back both for social

security, none of my family could draw social security at the time. they would pass away before they could get their units in. that money had to go to somebody but it would go to our aware -- our family. that's parts was never fair anyway. we need to get a hold of the people that actually borrowed the money, the department that borrowed the money and garnish their wages until it is paid back, and that would solve the problem. host: that is nancy in missouri. you can call once a month if you want to call again down the road. this is tom in new jersey, democrat.

caller: there is a scripture in the bible i want to mention. you have eyes, did you see. you have ears, can't you hear. at the end, it is the ways. my point is this, what are they doing for the people. but he is fighting for this one and that one and against each other and nobody is fighting for the people. it is always biden or mitch mcconnell, they are supposed to

be doing something. why are they fighting against each other when they are supposed to be helping? what are they doing to help the people in the united states? they are doing nothing. if any of the republicans or democrats, what college did they go to? i don't want to send my kids to that college. host: bob, independent, what is on your mind? caller: want to thank tom for his comments. there is another part of the scriptures that says who my to remove it. the time is now for the duopoly we have in this country to be upended. i am wondering where is the wellspring of american democrats

who say something is wrong with this current democrat party. there have been plenty of people on the right looking for a third option or looking for a different options, but this duopoly is destroying this country. host: what is the answer, to do away with them and have three parties or have many? caller: we need term limits, reform on k street, a citizen to reveal what happens with campaign donations. there is no reason a senator should be a multimillion dollar -- a multimillionaire on the salary. they are not governing for the people. host: which political party?

caller: 70% of the people don't want trump or biden to run in the 2024 election. the time is now for a third-party option, a viable third-party action. i will gladly vote for manchin or hogan. you are never stronger in this country since one reagan beat mondale and clinton be doyle. host: that is bob in wisconsin. this is carl newport richie florida, republican, good morning. caller: good morning.

it is just a matter of respect. biden lives as a politician. everything you hear with his son is all true. that is what politicians do. the last election biden got how many more votes than obama and trump got how many more votes than the last election question the harvesting of the votes, they aren't even getting around to what the people need. it is about the votes. a lot of that is not explained to the people.

the only president that wasn't a slave owner. every other who had slave owners were hypocrites. he is not a politician and that is why i think trump be better. host: this is john in chantilly, virginia. caller: people are saying the fbi is corrupt. if you commit a crime the fbi

will go after you. this country needs to be protected. it doesn't matter if you are a democrat or republican. it is a shame the republicans that are claiming they are police officers and pro fbi are doing this. this is not the republican we used to know. i corrupt that the country without government, you don't know what you have. people think they can survive without government. i grew up in somalia. go to countries that don't have a government and see how people live. cap peace in their life. they have a good job, they have clean water and good schools and they don't want to pay. it is a shame what the

republicans are doing to this country. i don't want to say the democrats are better. people need to travel to other countries. go to mexico and then you will see what you have in this country. people are spoiled in this country. host: one story i wanted to point out from the wall street journal out ofhe stem, ilnois -- evanston, illinois, they note a program that plays ravens -- residents reparations for a lack of housing and working on a program to -- they know a program that pays residents reparations for lack of housing and a work program. dozens of nip tallies --

musicality's have taken steps. evanston is the only one delivering on its promise. they expect to have distribute in $2500 each to 140 elderly residents who are 18 and lived in the city between 19 19 and 1969 when the city passed a fair housing ordinance. it can come in vouchers or cash and are funded by marijuana and real estate transfer taxes. you can read more in that story on today's wall street journal. this is robert in florida, independent, good morning. caller: when they cruise as joe biden, they might say about trump going to north korea. you wonder why he went there, and maybe it was an opportunity to the other casino.

and of the hasn't done is let russian officials into the oval office with document festered all over the place. when i was there, investigators told them to look in my emails. they didn't find anything. criticized the president for what is son did for some mickey mouse thing is ridiculous. and trump had bone spurs and wasn't in the service. i had bone spurs but i went in. he practically disgraced whole country. i hope he doesn't make it in again. host: this is trey in oklahoma, republican. caller: good morning.

i think it is funny that he calls trump a disgrace. i don't think the issue is about trump's personality or whether or not people like him what the republicans and independents need to understand is the military establishment is what is against trump from the very beginning because he is intent on reforming the establishment and that scares them to death. trump was impeached over a phone call in that phone call was him trying to get information on the very scandal that we know is actually true today. people say we are trying to pick on hunter biden. it really has nothing to do with hunter biden or whether or not he is a crack addict but the fact is that the laptop that is discovered has clear evidence of joe biden involves and in addition to the laptop you have whistleblowers and the whistleblowers are being attacked by the establishment

democrats and the doj are going after the whistleblowers. they were not treated that way when you had the one that was biased that came against trump for the phone call. you have text messages. the evidence is a mountain of evidence against joe biden as being corrupt and playing political games selling his influence for millions of dollars to foreign countries. host: do you think the house and judiciary committee can various investigations in the republican held house are doing a thorough job here in trying to investigate these things, to hold hearings on these things? caller: they are doing the best they can but the problem is they are limited in what they can do. the biggest mountain they have

to overcome is the fact that the doj it from the very top, i am sure most of them would tell you hands are tied. from the very top, and we will find out tomorrow during the hearing, the leadership the doj is making it impossible for anything to get done because they can hide behind the cover of, we can't talk about any ongoing or potential ongoing investigations. that is the problem, they don't have to talk about it and they cover it up. they have been aware of the evidence against joe biden going on the five years and it doesn't take that long to investigate something. you can just take the hunter biden plea deal. it doesn't take a multiyear investigation to come down on a plea deal for not paying your taxes. there are violations and a

multitude of going after everyone that just came out when he is working for the same company as hunter biden. it is ok if hunter biden worked for the company and was taking millions of dollars for a company he did nothing for? host: you can expect to hear more about hunter biden and the meeting with the fbi director christopher wray at 10:00 eastern. we will air it on c-span-3, and c-span now and c-span.org. that will do it for the en forum. in the time we will be joined by author and political scientists lee drutman discusses his proposals to expand the number of political parties in the u.s. we will be right back. ♪

>> watch live coverage of the national governors association annual summer meeting from atlantic city on thursday beginning at 10:00 a.m. eastern, live on c-span-3. governors will address used mental health, maternal health and public health along with disaster response and first lady dr. joe biden will also speak. friday at 10:00 live on c-span two, governors address political polarization. watch the summer meeting the thursday on c-span-3 and friday on c-span two, c-span now and online at c-span.org. >> c-span shop.org is c-span's online store. browse our latest collections,

apparel, books and assessor reese. there is something for every c-span fan. every purchase supports our nonprofit organizations. shop now or anytime on c-span shop.org. >> since 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, suzanne has edge c-span has provided coverage of the house and senate floors, congressional hearings and committee meetings. c-span gives you a front row seat how issues are debated and decided with no commentary, interruptions and completely unfiltered. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage, you can find

it anytime online at c-span.org, video of key hearings and other events featured markers that guide you to newsworthy events. these markers appear on the right-hand side of your screen when you hit play on select videos. this makes it easy to quickly get an idea what was debated and decided in washington. spend a few minutes on c-span's points of interest. "washington journal" continues. host: a conversation on political parties with lee dr utman and the author of a most recent and a paper about democracy reform. why do we have political parties in the first place and considering the state of politics right now, might it do

better to do away with parties? guest: i understand people are frustrated with the performance of our two parties. but mass representative democracy cannot be done without political parties. they are inevitable and essential as institutions of representative democracy. it needs organized politics. if it is not political parties, and it will just be charismatic autocrats. lyrical parties, structure, elections tilde majorities in the legislature and engage in mobile structures and coalitions. the parties do the work of moderate -- modern demonstrative month -- representative democracy. without it we would have a free-for-all or a chaotic mess.

host: to the beginning of putting the parties and the rules and how they have changed in politics. guest: the framers didn't like political parties when they were writing the. political parties will cause vision and we need to find a way to organize the legislature without political parties. it turns out when they got into congress, very quickly they realized political parties were essential to organizing legislatures and organizing campaigns. madison, jefferson, hamilton all formed political parties. when you're out of government it is easy to say we should approach every issue independently. when you get into government, assembly election pass bills and they need to start organizing a

team and those teams become political parties. you want to run for elections and coordinate among multiple candidates to share branding and other resources and mobilize supporters but you need a political party to do that. very quickly the framers formed political parties and after madison is in government, political parties are kind of good and important for a democracy. there is this period in the u.s. from what was specifically called the first party system from the first election, 1788 -- or 1790 and onward up through the 1820's. and we know it is hamilton versus jefferson, democratic republicans of jefferson and madison and federalists hamilton and john adams.

it was an even contest for a while. it is mostly an elite affair. but fighting over real issues, the role of a central bank, whether the u.s. is aligned with france are not. the election of 1800 is one of the most contested and nasty elections in political history. a lot of mudslinging. and jefferson and animals later became friends. corresponded with each other until the end. at about 1820, the u.s. has basically collapsed into a one party system, the unique period in the u.s. with one party election. what happens when you have one party politics is you have a faction and when you get -- 1860

and 1820 are one party elections and by 1824 you have the four candidate election andrew jackson wins the most votes but he doesn't win presidency because he doesn't win a majority in the electoral college. by 1828, jackson and martin van buren are organizing the democratic party which is the first massive party in the u.s. and there is opposition organized and that eventually becomes the whig party and they had clashes over slavery and the republican party replaces the whig party by 1860 for the last 160 years you have the democrats and republicans as the major parties. host: a gallup poll on party identification in this country, 30% respondents say they identify as republicans.

27% say they identify as democrats. 41% they identified independent. do you believe those numbers are accurate and what does that say about us? guest: ask people how they identify, a lot of people identify as independence and don't -- independents in don't like to call themselves republican consort democrats. they have been in the 40's for two decades now. they are staying in the mid to low 40's. what doesn't -- does it mean when someone says they are independent? asian means don't want to associate with either of those two parties but if i vote i will vote for one of the two parties because i think one of the two is worse. for a few people it means they are outside of the political system but most claim to be

independent or what they would call closet partisans. some of that is that they actually would want another party but given the two parties they clearly prefer one or the other. what has changed and is really significant is there are pulls out last year that showed 27% of americans disapprove of both parties now a lot of people who say they are independent dislike both parties affirmatively and that is what is unique. host: you say it creates opportunity but not just for a third party but fourth, fifth, sixth political party.

why are you calling for not just more political parties but many? guest: i think it is important to understand why we have just parties. not just that americans are evenly divided into political teams or that americans want to parties but we have a system of single winner elections for third parties and they are we student vote at best and spoilers at worst. you are causing it to go to your least favorite candidate or just testing a pointless protest vote. as a result, most of the energy is focused on major parties and third parties become place for fringe parties. a single winner election is a system we have used in the u.s. but it is not in the

constitution and not the default. most democracies in the world today use multi winner elections with proportional allocations and that allows for multiple parties. there is not a party that would represent all the independents. they overlap between moderates and a lot of people who are independents have all sorts of different beliefs but they are not on party. if they would -- were, they would form the party. some are moderate, some are conservative, some are far. there is not one party that would organize that.

if we had five or six political parties, most would feel represented and most would get to vote for a party and candidate who represents them and then coalitions would form after the election. host: expand how a proportional system works and what would have to change to create the system that would allow within two parties to flourish. guest: single winner elections means you can only have two viable candidates. 90% of districts, that means really only one viable candidate. instead of having a single-member district, you had a five member district. you take the districts and combine them into one.

now that district elects five and you get one vote and the vote for a candidate is aggregated to that candidate's party and then the votes add up and seats are allocated in proportion. if you have a five number district and democrats get 40% of the vote, republican can candidates get 60% and democrats get to seats and republicans get four seats. instead of having 50% plus one in order to win the seat, you can get 20% of the vote as a party. you can have multiple parties, each getting 20% of the vote. that is the norm. the u.s. is a strange country compared to most. most countries in the world have

some form of multimember districts with proportional allocation of seats and multiple parties. as a result, voter turnout is consistently higher and citizens feel better representative -- represented. parties have to bargain with each other after the election and almost always you wind up with a coalition that involves the political center. host: our guest from numerical, senior fellow in the political reform program and his book is "breaking the two-party -." phone numbers (202) 748-8001 down doubts. -- for democrats. (202) 748-8000 four republicans. that for republicans.

(202) 748-8002 for independents. here is what was talked about in 2020 for. -- 2024. [video clip] >> there is a shift work most saying they are independent, not on the independent party or most americans want better, more choices to choose and not just the resigned with the two choices they had in 2020. i am a democrat and i am working with republic and independents. right now, in the states where we are getting ballot access, there are five so far, we've had

a tremendous response from people in those states who signed petitions to have a ballot access and have no labels. we are not ready to declare a candidate or nominate a candidate, as i said, after super tuesday, we are not running a protest campaign. if we decide to run somebody for president or vice president then you become a protest and we don't want to become a protest candidate. host: that was sunday on the program. your thoughts. guest: i confess to being perplexed by the no label efforts. i understand the demand. that is clear. most people want more choices.

however, a presidential level, third parties are always going to be spoilers. if you want to give people more choices you have to build from the bottom up, you have to build more parties in state legislatures and in congress and then you work your way up starting at that level that is the worst way to create a third party and create more choices. it just causes chaos. i just really don't understand why they are doing this and why they are raising all this money for something that is not going to be building anything beyond the 2024 election. it is a one-shot thing and a lot of money wasted for something that is almost certainly going to fail.

i think there are much more productive ways to channel that impulse. if you want to have third parties play a viable role in single winner elections like presidential elections, there is a tradition in the u.s. throughout the 19th century, something called fusion voting in which multiple parties nominate the same candidate and people can choose the party line. that is still legal in york and connecticut and there is a litigation ever in new jersey to bring it back. imagine if there was a moderate common sense party on the ballot and app party chose whether to endorse joe biden or donald trump. now people say i don't like the democrats or republicans but i

want my voice to be heard but not undermine and spoil the election, voting on the common sense minor party gives people power. it builds something. it is not a one-off candidate based approach to a single election. it is we are building a party for the long-term. host: when the votes are counted, how does the common sense party line say, we brought it in? guest: my 3% vote on the common sense party line, then we -- if 20% vote on the common sense party line, then we get some votes and seats and we build identity. you have a single candid and see, it doesn't -- candidacy, it

doesn't build and it is a one-shot deal. it is not giving someone identity. political parties are identities and that is valuable and it is important to have institutions and organizations that people can belong to and participate in and say if we treat every voter as an independent actor, it is incredibly isolating. we have a crisis of loneliness and what we are saying is you shouldn't belong to anything and shouldn't engage in the work of doing politics. the longing to an organization and institution like a political party is a way to feel connected at a moment in which there is a crisis of people feeling

disconnected and disengaged and isolated, we should be building institutions that connect people and give them voice and opportunity to be with other people and to negotiate and share their values with other people. host: bring in callers. this is carrie in minnesota, republican. caller: i think a third party would be great but i don't think it's possible. money, bureaucrats and the fact that the press is so biased that people don't believe what they are being told. people think that money, how would you set up a major party to compete without taking billions or trillions of dollars to set something up. the press has advocated for one party or the other and i think

that is clear to see because the american public doesn't know who to trust and when we talk about bringing people together, look at the show we are watching, call in on the democrats line, republicans line or independence. we are divided by press and iraq receipt that has decided. the fbi and doj have decided they are going to influence elections. no matter what you think about trump or anything else, they got caught trying to influence an election. guest: so you are making an important point we are divided, particularly there is a real division in media environment, the press, publicans have very little overlap in the information they consume and

what stories they prioritize and issues they are concerned about. that is a tremendous problem. this is a dangerous downstream effect of our polarized two-party system. i think it is really hard problem to solve. my view is that if you change the rules to allow for parties to form, suddenly you have more options which might sound like more fracture but what it means is people are willing to consider a much broader variety of information. right now in an us versus them world which we are in, it leads to very simplistic thinking. it just makes us dumb because we only are engaging in one set of facts and anything that threatens that threatens our

entire worldview and existence. imagine a world in which there are five parties and they might each have media associated with them but you might consider a bunch of different perspectives forces us to do more thinking to engage in different perspectives . it adds more complexity to our political environment and so doing it leads us to actually think more. right now we don't do a lot of thinking when it comes to politics. we do a lot of reacting. host: timothy in vermont, line four democrats. -- line for democrats. caller: i'm going from east berkshire vermont. my first election i voted in in

1980 was in burlington. at one time there was a gentleman named bertie -- bernie sanders running for mayor and he won by six votes. back then, i voted for ronald reagan. let's go back 50 years, then i am watching what is going on with ralph nader and jeb bush and catherine's parents and all of them. i did vote democrat back then. host: bring me to the question. caller: the question is, my

point is that in 2000, because we had a third party candidate, i year over meter -- ralph nader , we are on the trajectory that we are on today that actually culminated in the january 6 debacle. host: let me take that up. guest: 2000 forward, what -- from 2000 forward, what should be see today? guest: the polarization we are expressing in this moment is a culmination of many trends that have been playing out really for

60 years and particularly accelerated over the last three decades. that is the sorting of our political parties. timothy is from vermont and this is a trivia question, but the state of vermont was the state in which there was eight senate seat held by republicans for the longest continuous period of any party in the u.s., from 1856 through the time when jim jeffords switch from republican to independent i think was in 2001. cap as the seat longest held by republicans. in 1936, vermont was 1 -- that was the longest seat held by republicans. ron had a long liberal to

moderate republican party. also there was a moderate to conservative democratic party. now what you have is, you have a collapse of the party system. now you just have liberal democrats and conservative republicans. you have urban, cosmopolitan places represented by democrats and traditional rural places represented did by republicans. alongside that you had the nationalization of our politics.

cap a few thousand votes here or there, gore would have been president instead of george w. bush. when you combine the sorting of the politics and the nationalization you have a recipe for hyper-partisan winner take all polarization both parties are trying and it never actually seems to sustain itself. rather than if zero-sum winner take all us versus them fight that is destroying this country and splitting us in half, we try something different in which we have multiple parties and no one party is trying to dominate and

gain total control. instead what we are working towards is a system in which there are compromises and coalitions and very few permanent entities. that is how our country used to work when we had a multisystem party. host: this russian from tom in erie, pennsylvania. if we had more political parties, how that play out with the electoral college component of our elections? guest: went we think about our elections we tend to think only about the presidency, even though there are congressional and set it as an senate because of the winner take all nature of a single office and the electoral college means we will probably still orient towards two major parties and what that

would mean they multi-party congress is a major presidential parties would try to build would try to build coalitions back to 1960, jfk basically not a lot of difference between them. for a long time, democrats included prominent publicans in their cabinet and republicans include some prominent democrats in their cabinets. they had a bipartisan overlap and i think that is what you would have if you had multiple parties in congress because the broad coalitions, you break that doom loop whether it is either at my side or your side and you expand. nobody ever says the lesser of three or four or five people's. host: to martin in las cruces.

caller: as a 30 year green, we have had major party status in the state of new mexico. i have found from the two-party system there is no representation. there are more than two positions on any policy. my political vote is not represented. when they say 40% is unrepresented and independent, that means they are not represented by a political party. the third party gives people a voice. the question is, do we have a presented tip democracy? when people are not represented and marginalized, went political parties use their power to block

other forms of representation, what you have is a top-down system that predicates the rules, regulations, requirements to get on the ballot. whether you are running for governor, dogcatcher or president, same boombox will block other political parties. i have seen it in new mexico back in 2002. we had a republican party are for $250,000 in order for the green party to run strong candidate in the special election. host: i will let you comment on that. guest: the green party has been a third party basically a small

third party that is mostly running protest candidates but that is what third parties are relegated to in a system of winner take all elections. martin, i get your point. like a lot of americans feel that you are unrepresented in our two-party system. a lot of americans feel that way. this is why i think we should be supporting proportional representation for the u.s. house of representatives to create an opportunity for more political parties to form so that we can organize political parties that represent. this is a really big country. it is a diverse country in so many ways and the idea that every thing can be aggregated up to these two parties just doesn't make much sense in this contemporary moment.

and trying to put everything into these two parties which makes it difficult for the parties to really maintain those coalitions, that creates this problem where the only way the democratic and republic of parties can hold the coalition together is bite saying the other party would be such a threat to this country that you have to vote for us whether or not you like it. again, there is way too much focus on third parties at the presidential level and we should really be focused on getting third parties into congress where they can actually play a productive role in an election that is inherently winner take all in which they will just play the role of spoiler. host: martin, martin in louisville, kentucky, democrat. caller: i want to make an

observation. in my opinion we have always had a three party system in america. before the civil war he had the republican party and southern democrats. the southern democrats controlled american politics. after the civil war, the democratic party was controlled by the northern democrats. it wasn't until 19 76 when jimmy carter became president of the united states as a southerner, he made it clear racism is no longer welcome in the democratic party. that is when the white people who were democrats went to the republican party. any attempt the republican party can nominate the candidate that is not a radical, they can't win. they have more people just like the democrats is to have. guest: martin, you are correct

that we have had a multiparty system within our two-party system for a long time. it wasn't until i would say about 2010 that we truly had a genuine two-party system with no overlap. for a long time what we had were two overlapping coalitions and the southern block was always kind of a third party, regional parties then the two-party system. i think in some ways the history of our country is actually as a multiparty system and i think in order for a large, complicated and diverse society to function, especially with a system of government that makes it hard to weed -- wheeled - weild parties

we can find a way to allow them to express themselves set of trying to assemble some tenuous majority based on very little. host: this is david from auburn, new york, republican. caller: interesting subject. you can't be all things to all people. you get one president and you have debates and the process, how to get the best candidate. and then it goes from there. this is the best you can do as it stands right now. you can't be all things to all people. you have one president and at some point someone has to be there.

you can't be all things to all people. there are about 20 parties. host: i will give you the final two minutes. guest: certainly we need to have one president but in the legislature we do a better job of representing the diversity and someone who is advocating on their behalf. the challenge is in this political moment, we are in a moment of increasing crisis, in which it feels like each election is a moment in which everybody's blood pressure goes up for six months for the election and we have all of this fear mongering and if our side

loses it will be the end of the public and democracy in america. that shouldn't be really true but when you keep telling people it is it starts to feel that way and then when it starts to feel that way, people might do outrageous antidemocratic things because they feel the stakes are so high. when you look in pulling on issue after issue, essentially, broad support for a lot of basic compromise policies. most americans don't want to hate other americans but we have a political system further and further apart and keeps tamping down anyone who wants to find common ground that is what happens when you have the prolapse of the political center. when you have polarization that leads us to treat our fellow

americans not as a political opposition in which we disagree if they win an election it is not the end of the world and then see them as an enemy or anti-american that if they win it is a fundamental threat. democracy is a fragile system and depends on a shared sense of fairness and these are the rules and we will play it by these rules and will accept these rules and instead what we have is this political system in which to compromise is to surrender, when to compromise is what it takes to govern. i think unless we change the underlying dynamics of the political system and allow for realignment, we are going to continue to go downhill as a nation, our economy will become more volatile, and living in america will become increasingly

uncertain. i don't want to see that for myself and my children and my future grandchildren someday. i believe in this country and i believe in democracy and i think the way to maintain it and support it going forward is to allow the diversity of this country to be better represented and to break this binary us against them that is so poisonous to the ability to governor's house collectively. host: the author of the book, this is where you can go to hear some of his writing. guest: thank you. host: that will do it for the program today. have a great tuesday. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪