♪ host: 11 morning view from the nation's capital, from the steps of the lincoln maloley --

memorial down to the reflecting pool to the washington monument, this site, 60 years ago today on the march on washington, the march for jobs and freedom. it was an inflection point in american history in three months before the assassination of president john f. kennedy, it would be two more years before. the voting rights for african-americans would be enshrined into law. how far have we come? have you seen progress any racial equality the last 60 years? if the answer to the question is yes, call (202) 748-8000. if you say no, (202) 748-8001. you can send us a text at (202) 748-8003. tell us your name and where you are texting from. we are on facebook and x and

instagram. we would like to hear your thoughts on progress on the quality in this country -- on equality in this country in the last 60 years, and -- in the country and community and your personal life. (202) 748-8000 is a line if you have seen yes, progress in the last 60 years and the line if you say low is --if you say no is (202) 748-8001. looking at the progress and equality over the last 60 years, pew research has done an extensive poll on that, on dr. martin luther king jr.'s legacy. 60 years after the march on washington, america's views on progress on racial equality, different forms of progress and what needs to change and we will look at that with a pew research senior researcher.

tell us about the pole that pew did, how frequently would they ask questions like this and on this particular poll, how many did you survey? guest: we have a long history of doing surveys on racial attitudes and american opinions on racial progress in the country so we conduct surveys every 1-2 years on racial attitudes and this survey had over 5000 participants. host: you look at the progress in racial equality, the majority of white adults and public and save the country has made a great deal or fair amount on progress on racial equality in the last 60 years and democrats say about 30% say that is the same. in a bedroom -- survey, little over 50% of adults and has that

changed much? guest: this is when the first time -- one of the first times where we have asked this particular question but there have been changes in terms of other questions we have looked at in the racial attitudes surveys. we have seen a decline in american support of black lives matter since 2020 but on the other hand, we have seen increases in the percentage of americans who say that slavery has a long-lasting impact on black americans in the country. for this particular survey with regards to progress over the 60 years, this is the first time we have asked that question but on other indicators, we have seen mixed results in terms of change over time. host: tell us about the chart we are seeing here, in terms of folks who say began efforts towards racial equality haven't gone far enough in this country? what do you find? guest: our survey overall shows

two -- one start contrast when it comes to progress. on the one hand, white americans are more likely that americans of other races and in the cities to say that progress over the last 60 years has been significant. black americans, to the question you are asking about, are more likely to say the progress, no matter how much it has been, hasn't gone far enough, 80% of black americans say the progress -- towards ensuring equality for all hasn't gone far enough compared to 40% of other ethnicities so we see a racial divide there on terms -- in terms on how americans access progress. host: did you get into details on what kind of progress on the economic unemployment, education front? guest: for this question, we were talking about racial

progress, we've phrased it as a quality for all regardless of race. host: you said black lives matter and it is interesting to look at the areas of the systems you surveyed and america's -- americans asking what systems need to be rebuilt in the country ensuring racial equality, the two at the top are the prison system and policing. hazmat risen since the summer of 2020 -- has that risen since the summer of 2020 and the growth of the black slight -- the black lights mattered -- black lives matter movement? guest: among those people who said that racial equality has not gone far enough, we asked them this follow-up so if racial equality has gone far enough, what are the things that need to change so exactly what you said, there are critiques of the

criminal justice system and the political system and 80% of americans who say progress hasn't gone far enough, about 80% rank all of those systems as needing more progress. this is one of our newer questions so we don't have a trend to be able to look at changes over time. we see that about 80% of u.s. adults say that each of the systems listed in the chart need some type of change, either a major change or a overhaul. host: are you surprised the prison system ranks there at the top in terms of systems that need to be overhauled? there has been bipartisan attention directed at the prison -- the prison system. even with the trump administration. guest: that finding is consistent the last year we published a study that looked specifically at how black americans rank each of these

systems and we see that the prison system, policing and their opinions on the court are really high on the list of systems that they feel like need to be rebuilt. this idea or critique of these particular systems within the criminal justice system needing to change, that is a consistent finding for us. host: what do you do with a pole like this, you talk about having done the survey on a regular basis and you talked about the new questions you have added. what comes next after releasing a survey like this? guest: we will continue our survey -- surveying of going into the election year, our polls up looking at americans and how they view for race. we have another one we are looking to do in the next couple of weeks to look at black americans particularly when it comes to how they think about successes and setbacks in the united states. after that, we will come with

our regular periodic survey. this one was unique in that we were asking about progress over the last 60 years since the march but in the spring, we expect to do another general survey on racial attitudes. host: kiana cox is a senior researcher at the pew research center. 60 years later, thanks so much. guest: thank you. host: we are asking you have you seen progress in a racial equality sent the march on washington 60 -- since the march on washington, 60 years ago today on the site and our cameras live. on the mall on saturday, they held a reenactment and remembrance of the march and we would love to hear from you, (202) 748-8000 is the line if you say yes, (202) 748-8001 if you say no if you have not seen

crop -- progress on racial equality over the last 60 years. jerry is in detroit. caller: good mornings and greetings from motown. i was born a couple years after the march on i was more -- one washington, i was born -- march on washington, was born a year after -- i would say it is a double-edged sword. there has been progress as far as african-americans getting into a lot of things. at the same time, as far as white attitudes about african-americans, i don't think we have come far enough. there are still white people, particularly on the conservative side, who still harbor a hatred

of african-americans. as far as martin luther king is concerned, i doubt very seriously because white americans hated martin luther king. they despised him. much like the way they demonized civil rights leaders today as much as they demonized of black lives matter movement, martin luther king had his share of detractors back then. after i get off, i am sure, probably on the republican line, you will hear about -- from racist white mayor is -- white males disparaging today's movement so even though black americans have progressed quite a bit, as far as white people, i don't think so as far as their attitudes because there are those who still hate us because of our stay in color -- because of our skin color. host: let's hear from bill who

says he has seen progress. caller: hello? host: hang on just ascetic -- just a second, we will get bill on the one. --line. caller: i am just waking up and i am glad i saved my call for this. i want to say there has been progress. absolutely. the thing about the progress is we still have a system of racism in our society and it is a very dominant system. it is like religion, or most of the people i deal with, we know it is a religion. it has done nothing but promote non-justice. it only wants to start -- heard black people. -- hurts black people. -- it only wants to hurt black people.

a large majority of black folks in our community, not all of them, who have this opinion and these notions of blacks as being less than and keeping at -- us at bay from getting money. as you notice [indiscernible] the survey that was done, when it came to the economics, they don't want to give us the money that is owed to black americans and a lot of black americans have progressed in the system -- who have progress in the system, they don't want other black americans who haven't to get that money and decrease the wealth graph -- wealth gap. that is the thing, give us the money and then tell us there has been progress or no progress because without giving us the money that is owed, we will be in the system of racism and white supremacy that has kept so many people confused about what is going on.

host: here's part of that survey from pew, 58% of americans who say efforts to ensure racial equality having gone far enough. say it is unlikely there will be equality in their lifetime. let's hear from lana in georgia. go ahead. caller: good morning. no, race relations and race in america and georgia has not improved. there is attitude, you still have whites, the educational system is not equal. financial wealth is not equal. case in point. look at our major cities. you see gentrification taking place. no one will just give a black person the type of money that the young white people are getting to redo these

neighborhoods. it has not improved, it has been redistributing -- redistribution has just taken place. it hasn't. thank you for checking my call. host: let's hear from john in jacksonville, florida. you say yes, there has been progress? tell us why? caller: that last caller, i have to agree with their 100% on what she said, i called on the yes line to say there has been improvement in the fact that we can go to certain colleges and we can get degrees and moving to the corporate life. having said that, people need to remember the march on washington was about reparations. the media tries to whitewash

everything about that march on washington but it was about reparations. martin luther king jr. said we are coming to washington to get our check. that check was what was owed to black people who were the descendants of slaves did not receive their reparations for the brutal act of slavery. one last point, living here in jacksonville, we have this -- weekend. this is a risk -- direct result of wanda santos -- ron desanti'' -- this is all on ron desantis' head. that man is evil and has always had an anti-black agenda and he sends out a limited attacks against black people in schools about teaching african-american people -- history. he is a racist and white supremacist and this is the

reason why it is happening in jacksonville, florida. ron desantis. host: an update from the washington post, shooter in races attack -- a white government who killed three black people at a jacksonville dollar general store legally purchased the two firearms used in the racially motivated attack and the man identified is a 21-year-old of clay county florida who drove to edward waters university, he was refused entry. he drove to the nearby store where he opened fire, using an ar 15 style rifle inscribed with nazi insignias. police described a methodical rampage that last -- lasted up less than 11 minutes -- that lasted less than 1 minutes and killed several people.

asking you this morning, have you seen progress in racial equality over the past 60 years. on the 60th anniversary on the march on washington, the march for jobs and freedom as it was officially titled in our cameras are looking live as the sun reflects off the lincoln memorial. saturday, the speakers gathered to remember and march again in washington including martin luther king otter spot -- martin luther king's son. [video clip] >> concerned about the direction our country is going in and it is because, instead of moving forward, it feels like we are moving backward. the question is -- what are we going to do? do we realize it is we the people who can make changes? represent history in the right way?

ensure that hatred and hostility is not espoused over are yet -- over our nation? our mother -- my mother and father dedicated their lives to embracing love and lifting up the goodness of people and if someone with 90% bad, they would work on the 10% good and work to extract them -- that from them. i don't have to say that much this time. there will be other times but we need us all to be engaged. my father would probably say now is the time, we must preserve, protect and disband -- expanded democracy. we must ensure that voting rights are depicted protected for all people and we must ensure our women and children are treated fairly. we must end gun violence. [applause]

then, maybe one day we will be of great nation -- a great nation. we are not personifying greatness right now. dad and mom taught us it takes a few good women and men to bring change so as i get ready to close, you may ask the question, brother king, we understand what happened with history. you don't like it or accept it. we understand what happened with voting rights, we don't like it but we must change it. you maybe asking the question my father asked in the late 50's, how long will it be? i don't know exactly how long but i know no live can last forever. how long will it be before we get freedom but i know -- how long? not long because the moral of the universe is long but it

bends towards justice. god almighty is still on the throne. let's not give up, let's not give in. let's not give out. we must move forward to make sure -- this nation the nation it ought to be for all five children -- dr.'s children -- god's children. host: have you seen progress in racial equality over the past 60 years? if your answer is yes, (202) 748-8000. if the answer is no, (202) 748-8001. some comments on social media. stephanie on facebook says yes, i'm still learning, my generation but for more hope for my grandchildren and those to come if they learned the honest history. tom says it seems some are using the educational this done to reverse whatever progress has been made.

i am looking at you, ron desantis. john says i have seen progress and i have seen russian and this is from my white perspective, those/though my perspective doesn't matter. she says i have not seen hardly any progress. it is knocking better, for the 1965 watts riot to the rodney king beating in the george floyd lynching. go ahead. caller: i am so tired of the discussions we keep having about inequality. if white people wanted to end this inequality, they can do it today and they can send a man to the moon and weaponry and people all across the globe to fight wars. why people don't want to end equality because they would give up their position of -- having giveaways and white privilege.

i have been on this earth and we keep talking about the same thing and it is going around the mulberry bush. all of it is discussions and that is a progression. -- regression. it is a bunch of bs. if they wanted to end any quality, they could do it. that is straight to the point. i get tired of these discussions. host: teresa on the no line. caller: i agree with the previous caller. you know, this country was founded on racism. we don't want to talk about real stuff. the country was founded on racism, violence. it was never designed for negro

people and descendants of enslaved africans. at they wanted to really do away with racism in the country, during reconstruction, it would have happened but that is not what happened. they implemented jim crow and segregation that lasted into the 70's so we keep talking and the other thing i wanted to mention, al sharpton and everybody else to stop with this martin luther king i have a dream, go back to the last two years of his life and listen to his speeches and what he talked about. the early 60's was different from the martin luther king that was killed. even a year prior to him dying, listen to what he said. stop with the i have the king -- dream speech.

that was not where his head was when he passed away. host: rev. al sharpton was one of the final speakers at saturday's event at the lincoln memorial and here is some of his closing comments. [video clip] >> today was a day to show our strength. thousands of you come, 60 years later, to say we are the continuation of a movement. 60 years later, we are facing affirmative action getting suspended and there are people that are trying to go after businesses. you heard from the -- air going after diversity -- they are going after diversity in large corporations. i went to announce today that we -- i want to announce today that we are going to fight back, we are not going to let you take

away affirmative action. we will march on the homes and the companies that if you think you can take money out of our community and cut us off, we are not going to allow that. we are going to have a fall of economic sanctions against ago that -- against those that bow to this. [laughter] we are building a unity here working see blacks and jews and latinos and asians come together. they are trying to separate us but martin luther king the third and others have orchestrated along with us, as a unity, that we are not going to take this. we are going to march and show thousands of us in the street together. they will not be able to turn back the clock. they want to stop blacks from voting, we will vote anyhow.

no matter how -- how hard you make it, we are coming anyhow. they are trying to put women back in the kitchen with an apron, we are not going back in the kitchen. they tried to tell someone get back in the closet, we are not going back in the closet, we will lock the closet. we will stand up for who we are and where we are and what we are. our fathers fought for this and we maintain this. 60 years ago, martin luther king, -- talked about a dream and 60 years later, we are the dreamers and the problem is we are facing the st ealers. host: looking live at the link in a marker -- at the lincoln memorial. have you seen progress on racial equality over the past 60 years? cynthia says yes.

coming from savannah, georgia. caller: good morning, i have seen it. i live in savannah, georgia. i have never faced racism myself. i come from a good place, i like it. it could be a better place. we have to stop with the mayhem. getting on our television, going against one another, black or white. you understand, our nation is in trouble. we need to come together and compete -- as people. the other people against us, they are watching us. we had to put this thing in god's hands. we have back people out there and that goes for black-and-white. racism doesn't just rely on the white man, it is on both sides. back in white.

-- black and white. we need to come together and keep this mess off the television and talk in privacy with certain things. the government should do the same thing because our world is in mayhem. host: on to sydney in galveston, texas. caller: high -- high there --hi, there. no. there are many white people who want to do right but if i said there were 10,000 snakes heading towards a bar in 10,000 of those nights, one or two of them were going to kill me, only just two of them, why should i let those 10,000 snakes come to the barn if i know two of them are -- that is how i feel. there are racist white people in here in a day -- in this world.

article 13 has more of a legacy then you know. he was a socialist if you did not know that. he died in prison at the hands of the fbi. you have to understand that we have -- host: what did you say, martin luther king died -- what did you say? caller: he died in prison at the hands of the fbi. host: he was assassinated in white and -- in memphis in next to 68. caller: anyhow. host: on to richard in avesta, me -- augusta, maine. caller: racism has come a long ways. it started going to the opposite way where you have racism against white people. they classify all this white supremacy. most people, white people in

this country, their ancestors -- it is like everybody is getting branded as a slave owner where a lot of people came from europe before, and during world war i and to this country and they have nothing to do with slavery. i have seen racism go both ways where it was disgusting that in the 60's. martin luther king was a great man and so was john kennedy who tried to put an end with it and he tried to integrate the schools and he was smart enough to know that we have to learn to get along together to make this country grow. now you got black people committing crimes in california and getting away with it and getting purged by people like kamala harris and barack obama. not all black you are like that but they are being encouraged by -- i don't think i would call

them black supremacists, like people like barack obama. the people who say because it -- there used to be slavery, you can commit crimes. host: how are they encouraging crime? caller: while they should -- do that and should never stop. you cannot tell people that because there -- there used to be things, they have a correct -- all right to -- they have a right to -- i don't know if you ever saw the movie mississippi burning but it was, it was disgusting -- host: this is an opinion piece from the washington post from president joe biden. the headline is we must keep wife -- marching towards martin luther king's dream.

many americans march on washington --marched on washington. -- derived from the very idea of america, we are all created equally and deserve to be treated equally throughout lives. while we have never fully lived up to the promise as a nation, we have never really -- we have never fully walked away from it. each day of the biden-harris administration, we continue to march forward stop he writes that lack employment -- unemployment levels fell to historic low this spring and remains at that level and more black small businesses are starting up then we have seen in over 25 years stop we cut black child party in half in my first year in office. we are delivering high-speed internet into homes across america and we are taking on big pharma to produce prescription drug causes --costs.

we are taking the most significant -- disagreeing with the president, not surprisingly, last week's first gop presidential debate is senator and presidential candidate tim stott -- tim scott critical of the joe biden economic agenda. [video clip] >> low economic unemployment. african-americans, hispanics and nations have -- as an all-time low but inflation was at 2% under -- and under joe biden, we see the exact opposite nbc inflation explode which led to 12 -- and we have seen explained -- opposite and we have seen inflation explode which has led to 12 -- host: if you say yes, it is (202) 748-8000.

if your answer is no, (202) 748-8001. this caller is in minnesota. caller: hello. i am a 42-year-old defendant of american chattel slavery. i called in on the no line. my mother was born in 1955 after, before the civil rights act was signed into law. if we just follow the money, we can see that those same defendants that left the plantations are still at the bottom of the economic ladder in the u.s. there could be no racial progress because there is no monies. that is my common.

-- comment. host: diane calling from alexandria, virginia. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i called on the yes blind because we have seen progress and people seem to forget that in 1963 we could not walk into a hotel and register for a room. we couldn't walk into restaurants, we could not vote. i personally was in high school at that time and i remember a time, one of my teachers saying and found i -- and said what are you doing applying to college, you are just a b student. i have many degrees. i know many changes occurred thanks to president johnson, that would not be the case and in the addition -- in addition,

we have seen -- a black president and the reason people are so frustrated now and are saying there is no progress, they don't remember the things i described. the mass incarceration and the fact that people can shoot us in the back and be exonerated, whenever they feel like it. we see things like george floyd which was outrageous. we think we are going to see changes and change in a year and we have to look at happened in jackson on saturday. there is still a lot of bad stuff happening with the black -- with black people and unfortunately, whenever crime is reported, we assume the people committing the crime are black. the guy who called and had the gall to say that president obama and vice president harris is encouraging people to commit crimes? most of us are just as outraged

these marauders as everyone else but somehow we seem to have a reporting system that implies why people don't commit crimes except for the mass shootings of the petty criminal stuff, they don't do that, is the impression we get and that is not true. yes, progress, but they're so much more that needs to be done. -- but there is so much more that needs to be done. stop seeing us as animals. we want to pursue the american people like everyone else and it seems like people don't want us to do that. host: one of the conversations we will get into is the area of wealth gap between black households and white households. buy your own admission, you have done well for yourself, how hard is it over your years working to get where you are today? caller: i was very first unit,

my parents had very little money and they taught me and my brother and sister how to manage money. from my early 20's, i saved and invested, i never lived beyond my means. i have -- had three homes and i am living well. i am traveling over the world but in the formative years, before 50, i managed my money carefully and as far as my wealth gap concern, i have a lot of nieces and nephews and i try my best to make sure they do not fall into that category, each one of them no how to manage money and they are going to be in a group that is doing well. i hope. host: thanks for calling in, it is (202) 748-8000 if you say yes, you have seen progress in racial equality over the last 60 years. if you say no, the line is (202)

748-8001. on the no line, james in memphis. caller: good morning. i said no because you have to go back sometimes past the years requested or asked of. [indiscernible] in 100 years before the, -- that, abraham lincoln was made president in two years before that [indiscernible] because they knew abraham lincoln's stance on slavery. five years after that is when the kkk [indiscernible] in 1865. now we are in 2023. the only way to make sure that changes are made racially,

especially between the blacks and the whites because america seems to be making a lot of money on this racism with white trying to put the foot on the next of blacks --the necks of blacks but the only way to end -- to handle this is kkk is existing today and because it is existing, if we want to change anything, we have to extract the kkk members. the way to do that is if we were to make white supremacy either a religion or a terrorist organization, a religion where they would have freedom of religion, of expression of religion and we would see them going into their churches. we would see their signs, we would know who -- or make it a

terrorist act, where we would criminalize their actions. onto -- until we [indiscernible] host: your connection is breaking up but we got your point. this is from t aociated press, the headline says the tcon -- the march on washinon60thnnersary, leaders seek energy of the original movement of civil rights. they write that -- not i face of eroded voting rights nationwide and after the reit -- recent tracking of affirmative and make college admissions come of the abortion the supreme court and amid growing threats against -- cor, jews and the lgbtqople of community, the issues today

appear similar to the issues of 1963. the undercurrent is that like peop a still the economic ally forest in american society -- is that black people are still the economically poorest in american society. rose -- caller: have seen progress -- i have seen progress. i have -- i am 70 years old and i have seen progress. the media -- they will not fairly report when people of color have had great achievement. how about more emphasis on people like clarence thomas, who is a great thinker, one of the greatest supreme court justices in centuries.

i blame a lot of this or movements like black lives matter, black lives matter took their money -- ripped off people, took their money and caused all kinds of chaos and did nothing to -- to further their cause. if people think that black lives matter didn't cause problems, it did and look at people best supported it by congresswoman maxine waters and sheila jackson lee, they thought everything should be reported selectively. they encouraged violence. it is like now, 15% of the population in america is black. when you see it on tv and commercials and whatnot, it is more like 60%. again, i blame the media.

thank you. host: washington post over the weekend ran a section looking at the 60th anniversary and interviewed a number of those who participated. the number of african-americans and others who participated in the march. this is virginia hourly --ali, the is the owner of the famous bands chilly ball --ben's chilly i bowl. virginia ali in the conversation with the washington post, she said she founded it -- she said that dr. king had an office on 14th street and one of his visits to me, i remember this think leak that we had a meeting where president kennedy and john

lewis was with him. president kennedy said we understand injustice but i don't think it is a good idea to bring a large group of people here and if there is an incident, it would set the movement back. dr. king said there will not be an incident. here is a look at some of the universal newsreel coverage. they did newsreel, news coverage and this was filmed from 1953 on that day, august 28. [video clip] >> today's gathering is the largest in washington pop process. . the man who organized the rally -- way bookings -- roy wilkins with a philip randolph. on the left is martin luther king. others include martin referred --ruthord.

♪ authorities feel for -- warfield third -- were fearful of disorder. arrests in washington were below normal. police attributed to the fact that for the first time in years, you cannot buy a beer in washington. it provided their own. the songs that raised from the sacred of the hillbilly but from the one recurring theme, the cost of 20 million euros --the cause of 20 million negros. ♪ we shall overcome, we shall overcome, we shall overcome some day, oh deep in my heart, i do

believe, we shall overcome some day ♪ ♪ the crowd assembled around the reflecting pool before the lincoln memorial, occupying every inch of the lawn and there is a great well of tears the welcome martin luther king at this because william will stop he stands as a symbol of all they are fighting for -- martin luther king at the speaker's podium. he stands as a symbol of all they are fighting for. later, mr. king and the other leaders are to go to the white house the president said

everyone must be impressed with the definition -- with the demonstration. he warned there is a long fight ahead in congress. host: have you seen progress in racial equality in the past 60 years, the comments on social media as the cameras are live at the lincoln memorial. one person says yes, have you seen everyone's rights being whittled away regardless of race, also, yes. lawrence says i live in the south and if you honestly say it has not improved in the south, you don't live here. poverty among i'm -- african americans has this priest -- has decreased will stop moses says there has been small progress but the interbody still in the system and that is why young african-americans are more likely to see -- receive longer

sentences than caucasians. we will see if we get a text, people get texts in a few minutes. we will go to wesley calling from milwaukee. go ahead. caller: yes, i called on the no line. host: go ahead. caller: i feel like it has in approved because there are so many things that the black mind and intelligence could have done since 1963 that i think we could have been going on the moon. we could be a in -- be in flying cars by now and there's so much progress that we have been stunted from, our slave ancestors, they were bringing people. so are we. . all we need is a chance to make america great again. give us our reparations and let us work as an equal.

you had a couple callers before me that were saying they believe that white people could change this overnight if they so choose to. they haven't choose to do it. there is so much going on right now that the black people that think they have got ahead, they don't know how far ahead they could have been. the reason they are saying yes, they are looking at their basket full and they are saying yes but how many of their ancestors and children and nieces and nephews are still getting shot and killed by the police officers? how many of their family members are being denied because of their colors? how hard was it for you to get from the toys that the white man had? it is a shame what we have to go through. the black man, just because of a skill -- skin color and who are

the people who are fighting so hard to say no to us? host: next up is peter in tennessee. go ahead. caller: i messages on facebook that the problem is the difficulties we have in the u.s. are not racial. there are cultural. when i was going up in the 60's, it was much worse because it would -- was before the civil rights in these -- and desegregation. now it is completely gone and there has been progress but people don't realize if you go live your life and succeed, it is more than any -- anything, it depends on the individuals living responsibly.

you cannot have a success -- successful life if 75% or so of the black community, if i completed that way -- if i could put it that way, have children born out of wedlock. you start out with no family structure and when you are young by debt and you don't know the child and you're not married to the men, that creates instability, chaos and unpredictability in your life. that spreads through the society in different ways. host: you think that is a broader problem other than just the black community? caller: it is but it is -- the percentage is much higher and it is about proportion. the proportional effect is so much higher in the lock community than any other group, it is having a more negative effect on people's lives.

you cannot six same -- you cannot sustain it and you end up with lots of government support, what kind of life you have? the activity, behavior -- if you are in a gang and you lose nordstrom -- and you lose nordstrom --loot nordstrom, or -- blacks killing other blacks. that is willful activity people engage in and that destroys their lives. host: i appreciate your call. we want to let you know about further coverage on the 60th anniversary date, at 6 p.m. eastern on c-span, this past weekend, marked the anniversary on the mall. the recognized turning point in racial economic justice in the u.s. civil rights advocates will be examining on what more needs to be done to advance freedom,

equality and justice and this is that the doorjamb university initial -- initiative. it will stream it live on c-span.org and on her mobile app, our free mobile app -- one our mobile app, or free mobile app c-span now. tell us your name and where you are texting from. this is bob from ohio who says there is so much progress, turn on your tv and you will see all races and commercials mixed as couples and game shows, hosts are black and all the sports figures doing well. it is not enough to say we see progress, we must be progress as citizens of the world and that is why love diversity in church. cecelia, this one says much progress has been made. as an example, on the east coast in the 60's, we saw signs on

many restaurants, no coloreds allowed. bail is calling from annapolis, maryland --dale is calling from annapolis, maryland. caller: i am calling on the yes line but i am going to give you examples of why it seems like things are going backward. i am 72 years of age and i witnessed my grandmother go to the march on washington. when she came back, she explained to me why she went. yes, there has been progress because if there had not been progress, you would have had -- never had barack obama as president and i feel within my heart, that is where a lot of the so-called racial people, whether they be black or white, come out of their woodwork after they saw mitch mcconnell come on

and say we are going to make barack obama a one term president, as opposed to trying to work with him. now, passport to -- fast-forward to ron desantis in florida who is running for president. what he wants to tell people, no, there is no racism. let's go back to saying that because people were slaves and then they became black -- that should have ensured them to get ahead in life. host: let me ask you, you mentioned your grandmother and she told you why she went, what did she said? --say? caller: zhytomyr that like people, even though right now, if she was alive, she would probably be 130 years of age. i was blessed to have her and

have her wisdom and she explained to me. we lived in washington dc. she came from a small town in virginia. it is so amazing, when i look at -- people think just because you have a black person, something like a tim scott or a clarence thomas or listening to the women before me -- to the woman before me who came on and said what a great thinker clarence thomas was. most of the things that would have benefited like people, he voted against. -- benefited black people, he voted against. just because a person is black in color, does not mean he has black causes on their mind. host: it will go to isaac in maryland, good morning -- we will go to isaac in maryland, good morning. caller: good morning.

i think progress has not been made because of the political class. i will start with the example of president joe biden. the public speaks about all human beings being created equal and in contrast, i look at the leadership on the republican side where x president trump has never had any speech, despite the fact that he did -- talking about equality. among the congress, people right now in the republican party speak negatively of vice president kamala harris. they don't give credit for her hard work but 100% of these republicans -- everyone knows they are [indiscernible]

can stand as equal to kamala harris. she is more qualified than they are telling but the people condemning kamala harris keep talking down on people of color but the support -- but they support like people who are not as qualified. another example is the first black woman supreme court justice, kentucky --ketanji jackson brown, you see even the black tim scott voted against court ted cruz voted against her. these are not examples that encourage equality. host: we will get one more call from dexter in the nation's capital. good morning. caller: good morning, c-span. i notice you guys have been

listening to a lot of older guys, older black people, but i am a 53-year-old black guy, born in the 70's. i have seen everything that white society has done to black people from forcing fathers out of the home in the 70's, putting crack cocaine in pcp, so we would not do anything like we did in the 1970's, burning down every town we ever created. how do people call into this show and say there has been progress because we can go into restaurants and stores when we live in food deserts all over the country? we cannot even go to the supermarket in our own neighborhood. we have to drive to a white neighborhood just to get food!

there has been no progress. black people should get passports, and get the hell out of here. host: we appreciate all your calls this segment on washington journal. coming up, we have more ahead. we have a couple of guests joining us to talk about economic disparity in the united states. we will be joined by otto wally my a -- he will join us with his research on post-civil rights research and what it has done to increase homeownership. then we will hear from michael tanner from the institute of research on equal opportunity. ♪ >> this fall watch c-span's new

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books,, home decor, and accessories. there is something for every c-span fan and every purchase helps to support our nonprofit operation. shop now or anytime at c-spanshop.org. >> washington journal continues. host: on this 60th anniversary of the march on washington for jobs and freedom, looking live at the lincoln memorial this morning on washington journal. we are joined next by adewale maye a policy and research analyst with the economic policy institute. he is going to talk about his new research, which found that post-civil rights era legislation has failed to address the widening racial disparities in this country. mr. maye welcome to washington journal. on your report, it begins in the

post-civil war era, the era from reconstruction to civil rights. how do you describe the economic picture for black americans during that period? guest: it was very significant gains during reconstruction. black workers were seeing positive economic gains, but as we all know the implementation of jim crow legislation had walked back a lot of that progress during reconstruction. other discriminatory policies that were enacted during that time, including redlining and even when we think about the g.i. bill and how many black veterans were systemically excluded from the benefits of homeownership, those benefits, we see that the long casting shadow of economic inequity has

its roots specifically during that time. >> the march -- host: the march on washington, what were the economic messages that dr. king and the other speakers were trying to get through to americans and american lawmakers? guest: the march on washington for jobs and freedom, a lot of the demands were largely economic. some of their goals included national minimum wage that would give all americans a decent standard of living and a more inclusive, fair labor standard act, which would include all areas of employment and employees that were presently excluded, a massive federal program to train, unemployed workers and civil rights legislation to guarantee adequate education, housing, equal access to public accommodations and the right to vote. host: it would be two years

before that civil rights legislation would be passed and enacted into law, same with the voting rights act passed and enacted into law. when you look at those acts and other civil rights legislation of that era, where do you see the areas where we have largely fallen short? guest: i think that the civil rights legislation, the civil rights era, the movement as a whole succeeded in removing barriers to equal rights under the law. to what i was saying, many of the economic demands were left unmet. it adversely impacted the economic security of people of color. that led to the economic outcomes present today. while we do have the right to vote, we know that voter suppression is rampant in many parts of the country. we see many ways in which

politicians are disempowering voters of color, and black letters in particular from exercising that right to vote. we know that homeownership continues to be a problem. well, continues to be a problem with many black families having negative wealth. income disparities have grown more disparate over time. we are seeing many of the things we were asking for during the march are still things we are striving for today. host: in your report, provide a very clear graphic on black unemployment, consistently higher than the unemployment of any other racial or ethnic group. your research goes back all the way to the 1970's. clearly, a big dip in unemployment among all classes here during the trump administration, the spike in covid, and the drop again now during the biden administration.

why has that line tracked consistently higher for the black population? guest: i think that also goes into some of the structural racism within our economy. black workers are often employed, or are more likely to be employed in sectors or jobs given low wages. because of that, during economic downturns they receive some of the most disparate outcomes. there are even other things like occupational segregation, for example that are also structural and systemic that provide barriers or inhibit black workers from having that safety net during those economic downturns, those recessions. as a

you cannot build other housing. -- it has led to the broad, and accessible, and unaffordable housing practices that we are in today. host: you pointed out not just in housing but more broadly what that means for families as well. you look at black and white families, the legacy of slavery redlining and discrimination limits black families compared to white families. we are looking at the most recent data here june from 2019 with the dark blue line being -- there is obviously a very big

difference in median family net worth, but what is the gap here? what are these numbers here today? guest: what you are seeing is obviously the median wealth that a white family has and the median wealth that a black family has. typically for families of color, black families in particular, a lot of their wealth is tied to their home. unfortunately, because of the homeownership crisis, many black families are not able to access that wealth. they are not able to access that within their home. they face the unfortunate and discriminatory, i would say, implications of even home evaluations wear because they are black, often times their

home is valued less than what a white family would -- a a white family's home would be valued. as a result, we see these very disparate wealth outcomes across racial lines that have persisted over the past few decades. host: did your research look at the effect of government programs in terms of trying to assist people, black people into homeownership? guest: i definitely surveyed several different federal policies over the span of decades, however, the core tenant of seeing actual progress and redressing some of these issues, especially regarding homeownership, i think the

policies that have existed have mitigated a lot of the issues but have not really try to address the root issue of racism within u.s. institutions and i think that can only happen if policymakers try to implement targeted and race conscious policies and make scalable investments in eliminating racial inequality. host: adewale maye is a research and policy analyst at the economic policy institute. what is your organization's mission? guest: epi's mission broadly is to empower workers whether that is low or middle income workers. you try to advocate for policy and is researchers we try to

create these stories are narratives around why workers need to have their rights shared. as a policy and research analyst, i want to connect the way things are now -- using an intersectional lens for gender, race, ethnicity and many other demographics, indicators on exactly the barriers that are present within the labor market and within the economy now, and how we can improve the economic security. host: calls for our guest at (202) 748-8000. that is the phone line for the eastern and central time zones. (202) 748-8001, the mountain and pacific region. we will go first to louisville, kentucky.

chris is on the line. caller: mr. maye, i see you and your name, and i am happy to see you. i am torn about how to go about this. i will go with what you are talking about, the economic policy. i am a 72-year-old american-born african and in my lifetime -- i am a vietnam veteran. in my lifetime i have been a homeowner the majority of my life because my grandfather, he used to have a saying. the saying was it is better to own the shack than to rent a palace. he instilled that indwell of us, the important -- into all of us, the importance of ownership. i have been a homeowner the

majority of my life. my house has been paid off for a long time. i have a standing, prequalified loan from chase bank for $25,000 anytime i want it to buy a vehicle, but if i want to get a loan for a property, that is a whole different thing. those of the kinds of disparities we face all the time, even in our own community. i have lived here for 30-something years. most of the homes around me are either section eight or they have been bought out by white people hwo use it for supplement -- who use it for supplemental income. it is mostly renters. and it gentrifiers moving into our community.

black people have been kept in so many ways from owning their own communities. most of it is owned by europeans, and that is all over the country. host: thanks for your perspective, chris. guest: thank you so much for sharing your story. i cannot only sympathize, but i can empathize. living in d.c., which used to be one of the cities that had the largest share of black residents, i'm definitely seeing the shifting demographics personally. the unaffordability crisis within housing in the housing market is definitely rampant in several cities across the country. like you said, i am very happy and proud that you were able to have a home passed down to you,

but that is also not something that is widely available for many people in this country, which is exactly why i think that having that homeownership is such an important thing, not only for the personal wealth of a black family, but also kind of like the broader collective prosperity. host: you touched on this a little earlier, adewale, on homeownership. " american homeowners hold most of their assets in their primary residence, across all racial groups especially black and hispanic households. 74% of total assets for blacks, 80% of total assets for hispanics." what is your concern there? in the white households where else is their wealth held?

guest: i don't have in front of me the other places that white residents are holding their wealth, but because white residents are more likely to have wealth tied to their home, they also have the ability and the privilege to have wealth held in other assets. for black residents, that is unlikely the case. just trying to achieve homeownership is such a task for many black families within the u.s. that when they do have that, they do not always have the privilege in trying to have many different assets. it is not something widely equitable across-the-board. host: let's hear from tom calling from ohio. caller: good morning. thank you for letting me have the privilege of making some comments. i am caucasian. i grew up in northwestern ohio

on an 80 acre farm. i have yet to find a person around me in this community that will basically support helping the poor, helping feed people, and they always come up with the comment "let them earn their money like i did." they will go to church one hour a week -- you talk about where does white wealth come from? there was a lot of white wealth people are born into. they act like they don't know how lucky they are. they were born into the right place. i was communicating with a cousin, and i call him cousin q

because he was right off the deep end of everything. he made a comment that al sharpton got $125,000 for speaking at george floyd's funeral. that's nothing! stormy daniels got $125,000 and she didn't even have to speak! i wish the best for those less fortunate then myself. that is about my comment. host: mr. maye, any comments? guest: to your cousin, and may be broadly to everyone, i think when we look at wealth and we look at wages and we look at all of these gaps, these disparities, it is really important, and i think even the intention of this report is to

walk away from individualizing this. looking at one person or another person is not the way we are going to actually make progress. the purpose of even looking at these economic gaps over time is to see how pervasive the issue is, and the issues that have been sustained from the 60's until now. looking at that, you can see that there are systemic and structural problems within these institutions of education, within institutions of housing, and for sure within the economy and labor market. i think in looking at a more macro view, a wider scope of the issue, we can't individualize these problems because these problems are not just happening -- it is not a

one-off case. it is happening to people in middle america. it is happening to people on the east coast, west coast, the south. it is widespread, pervasive. it is something millions and millions of people are experiencing, and in order to attack a problem of this size, we will need something both targeted and race-conscious. host: our guest is a graduate of the university of maryland. he has a masters from george washington university in applied economics and data science. we go to gary calling from decatur, alabama. caller: my name is gary. i had a grandfather who had a 265 acre property, and back in the day you used to have to go to the lot to get the seeds

to run your farm. the guy took my grandfather to court, and tried to take the land. the judge had the same last name as the guy who ran the co-op. i went to the county -- i mean, the courthouse, and i researched the case. i looked at the original papers where they served my grandfather. the court case was dismissed, but i can't find out anything about what happened to the land, or why the land was sold. my family is land rich but money port, so we don't have the money to take -- money poor, so we don't have the money to take care of this. my mother bought her home with a loan that was very high and when she tried to pay it off she couldn't because they had a penalty in there if you paid it

off early you got penalized. that is what a lot of people don't understand. they give them such high interest rates and then stick them with that 30 year mortgage, and you could not pay it off early. i had a lot of uncles who tried to do the same thing. they could not pay it off because if you did you got penalized. you stuck for 30 years. that was the case with my grandfather. i have been trying to find somebody who can help me research this pro bono tha i cant -- pro bono that i can find out what happened to my grandfather's land. host: all right. adewale maye, what do you think of gary's story there? guest: thank you for sharing that story. i truly appreciate it.

this is a story of millions of other people. for sure for black farmers as well. there have been many people who have land inherited, but because of discriminatory policies or even the close knit community within some of these areas where they are trying to leverage that power and disempower the black people within that community and keep it within a certain group in order to ensure that they are able to secure their own riches and prosperity, we see that this is something that is also very rampant, especially with homeownership, especially with home appraisals. this is something that continues to happen, and it is exactly the reason we need a scalable

investment into eliminating these issues from happening in the future. host: it also looks at fundamental rights and you look at black voter registration.\ black voter registration has lagged behind white voter registration from 1980 to 2020. why is that participation level -- that registration level i should say, still lagging behind white and non-hispanic citizens? guest: voter suppression, gerrymandering, all of these issues that continue to happen and persist today. we regularly watch the news during election season and we are hearing stories of long

lines that are predominantly black. we hear about booths being closed or voting sites being moved last minute. these create even more barriers for black voters, not only to register but to vote. this is one of the cornerstone issues that was advocated for during the march on washington, but definitely during the civil rights movement. at its core it is what america is founded on, the principle of democracy. having actual state policies that in many ways just hurt black workers' ability to register or practice their work to vote, we see these statistics every time. host: let's hear from bruce

calling from old tree, georgia. caller: i would like to say that we have to rely no the universal -- rely on the universal god to free the oppressed in our community so that we have the more perfect world that is promised. thank you. host: on to valerie from oxford, ohio. caller: my name is valerie. i was calling in. i grew up in kentucky in a small town and moved to ohio over a decade ago. the difference in racial equity -- i can go across the bridge here and see a complete difference in the town, the homes, and that is primarily were african-american people will live.

you go across the bridge, and you will see potholes in the road and in the sidewalks because they try to hide -- the city tries to hide the poverty in our town, and instead of trying to take care of it and trying to help it, it is worse. homes are run down. you go across the bridge and it is fancy. i think it comes -- it starts from the top, honestly, in my opinion. host: adewale maye, any comment? guest: similar to many ring communities into cities across the country, we see these invisible lines where you cross into one area of the community, which happens to be predominantly where people of color or prose loop, -- color

are present, and do you see the lack of investment. sometimes even the poverty in these areas. in my report i draw the conclusion even to the covid-19 recession and how we as america, we had a crisis that required congress to come together and put forth policies that address something of this scale, something that was definitely hurting millions of americans when there was so much uncertainty, ambiguity, and fear of just what was going to happen next. people were hurting and congress came into action. similarly, structural racism is probably the biggest pandemic we have ever seen. you can see that it is hurting

millions of americans in cities and communities across the country. in order to address these problems, we will need that same level of investment, that same level of targeted investment, but also even just scalable urgency in order to really address the root issues of racism and actually uplift black americans in this country. host: you look at the unemployment numbers. in july the overall unemployment rate was 3.5%. for blacks it was 4.8%, down from 6%. the numbers dropped significantly during the trump administration, a resurgence of unemployment rates early in the

biden administration. is it your view that, that number attracts the same for blacks regardless and that they are missing an opportunity here? what would it take to bring that number lower for the black population? guest: that is a great question. the black unemployment rate is low right now. the labor market is an overly great position. the labor market. -- the labor market is tightening. i was looking at the annual black unemployment rate. we see that being much higher than the white unemployment rate. it is difficult to look at these issues as one-off scenarios when

we are looking at a vacuum of just july or this year. looking at the historical trend, it is a lot more pervasive. one ofs the demands of the march on washington was a plan in place to train unemployed workers. that would be a good policy to look into, if we could find a way to do it in an equitable manner in order to break down the barriers to economic prosperity and unemployment for black workers. host: let's go to new york city and hear from clyde. caller: good morning. first of all, it is ironic that you mention the march on washington because here it is. everyone remembers mlk' speechs about color and character, but he also had an interview where

he talked about the propriety of land between black people and white people. you being an expert, which you should be, and you being real nice about it -- you do know where the disparity comes into play. that is what put us behind. i'm a real estate investor. i have four properties in new york. i also have four properties in boston. you know what it is, but you're being real nice about saying it. i don't know how much more nice you can be, but that is the disparity between white and blacks. we lost land.

look at how many towns we lost. we lost 60 towns by white supremacy. they can destroy us. they literally destroyed us. they kept us in this place. this is a racist country, and that is what it boils down to period, and you need to say it. host: adewale maye, your thoughts? guest: i really appreciate that comment. i agree. as i have stated earlier this does include during reconstruction. the shadow of slavery, all of the issues we see now have taken root from that from the very beginning. fundamentally, these

institutions are flawed. i think that they are discriminatory. i inc. that racism -- i think that racism is part of the great fabric, unfortunately, that has brought america to what it is today, but that does not mean that is what we need to continue to be, and definitely not what we should be as we try to kill this country and move forward. i think in this way we look at the demands of the march on washington as a playbook for how we can achieve true racial justice and equity. i think just like dr. king and many of the other great leaders of the civil rights movement and the black power movement, all of the great ancestors, they understood that this country is racist but they also understood that there is a place for black people, for other people of

color, for people across the globe to make a living here. i'm not saying that all americans have the right to live -- in this case, this is why i believe that this report, and even this anniversary is very important because we can look at these goals. we can see and assess how far we have come and also see what progress we need to make. host: you have a portion in your report that says "the unanswered call of the kerner commission." remind us what the kerner commission was, and what were you pointing to in your report? guest: the kerner commission was basically a survey that was sanctioned by the government and ordered to see exactly what the

black community needed. it was looking at the relationship between black citizens and the police, homeownership. it was looking at poverty, voting, all of these different factors just to see what does the black community need in order to thrive? the conclusions they had reached mirrored the demands of the march on washington, which in many case added further context and even validity to the fact that these are the things -- we know the issues facing black workers and the black community at large, however, we just need to use history, use the demands of the march on washington, use

the commission report and tried to make strides towards achieving what they are asking for. i think the kerner commission report and the march on washington are a great playbook for policymakers to use moving forward. host: we will get one more call for you. we go to market in asbury park, new jersey. -- to mark in asbury park, new jersey. caller: i think about history. for example, back in slavery black people did all of the labor. pushing a broom was for black people. after slavery was over, now they don't want to hire these black people to do the jobs they

worked for. on a major highway, you might see 20 or 30 white people out there and only 2 blacks. these are hey paying jobs. they pay $60 an hour but you see 30 whites one black. a black man has to do -- host: any final thoughts on that? guest: as i have reiterated, i think that all of these stories really let the dire circumstances of many -- really reflect the dire circumstances

of many black americans throughout the u.s.. policy needs to address the root issue of racism. that includes raising the minimum wage, protecting workers' right to unionize, federal reparations programs for descendants of enslaved africans, access to voting, freedom from over policing. i think all of these buckets are not only ways that we can make right the demands of the march on washington but also make very significant strides forward for racial progress and equity. host: you can read the report at cpi.org. adewale maye is a policy and research analyst. we appreciate you being on the program this morning. more ahead on this 60th annirsy of the march on washington, coming up next on washington journal.

we will get another perspective. we are joined by michael tanner of the institute of research on equal opportunity. ♪ >> the c-span bookshelf podcast feed makes it easy for you to listen to while of c-span's podcast that feature nonfiction books. each week we are making it easy for you to listen to multiple episodes with critically acclaimed authors discussing history,, biography current events and -- listen to c-span's bookshelf podcast feed today. you can find the book shelf podcast feed on c-span now and on our website c-span.org/podcasts.

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tanner who is a senior fellow at the institute for research on equal opportunity. welcome back to washington journal. many folks have seen you over the years on this program and this network with the cato institute for many years. you made the move over to the foundation for research on equal opportunity. what prompted that move? guest:guest: what prompted it is the unique focus that the foundation has, which is lower income americans and how we can best utilize individual liberty and free markets to empower people at the lower end of the income scale and find ways we can create more equity in america. host: we started this program asking our viewers on progress inequality in the 60 years since that march on washington. what is your view, focusing on

the economic aspect of that? guest: we have made progress but nowhere near enough. african-americans still suffer from the downstream effects of slavery and jim crow. you have higher black unemployment, more black property -- black poverty. we still have a long way to go, if we want to create true equality in this country. host: we had a color earlier during that segment that said march -- caller earlier during that segment that said the march was all about dr. king calling for reparations. you have a piece recently that instead of reparations, we should expand opportunity for african-americans. guest: reparations are not a frivolous idea. african-americans do not play on

a level playing field today. much of that leveling has to do with policy as we have pursued in this country for centuries and those consequences are still playing out. it is not a frivolous idea and it is one that is not plausible. it would -- there are other approaches we can take. increase the opportunity for african-americans. that includes things like creating more educational toys and giving parents more control over their children's education, dealing with exclusionary zoning so african-americans can move into more neighborhoods and not be prisoners of their zip code.

increasing black entrepreneurship. those are all things we can do that i think would be more politically attainable than reparations. host: start with the education piece of that. why do you think the idea of school choice in this country gets to be so controversial? guest: certainly a very powerful interest in terms of the teachers unions but most people talk about the schools being bad overall but their own local school is something they love. it is very hard to talk about making those types of changes. the reality is if you are in many african-american communities, the schools are not as good as those in the white suburbs. because you have difficulty moving to the suburbs, you are at the mercy of your zip code for education, and that is simply wrong. we should be talking about what

is asked for children. host: what about in the area of homeownership? we talked about this in the last segment as well. exclusionary zoning, the decades long affective exclusionary zoning, the biden administration has made a push to incentivize localities to get rid of those zoning barriers. do you agree with efforts like that? guest: what the biden administration is trying to do is more been counting than what i would like to see, but there are ways we can -- those localities that refused to adjust their zoning laws and make multi-family housing available will have to face some penalties in terms of finances. host: our guest is michael tanner.

we welcome your calls and comments. (202) 748-8000 is the line for the central and eastern time zones. (202) 748-8001 is the line for mountain and pacific. does this change your opinion on -- guest: we have been out here talking about entitlement, which i care deeply about because we don't want to rob the legacy of our children, i think it is more important that we deal with the fact that we have too much poverty in this country and we need to focus on how we can best raise people from the bottom up. host: what other areas on this 60th anniversary -- we talked about housing -- what other areas have blacks made the most progress? guest: there are a large number of black entrepreneurs today.

black people have moved into business in a way that they were not able to in the 60's so we have a glowing black middle class. have more blacks going to college and university. we have more african americans making advances but in all of these areas we can do better. host: in terms of entrepreneurship has the trump administration or is the binding administration focusing on doing enough to -- the biden administration focusing on doing enough to support that? guest: we need to be looking at occupational zoning. we need to be looking at something as simple as who gets liquor licenses and who doesn't. guest: why do -- host: why do those things happen today? guest: special interests. the status quo is very powerful. a lot of it is just education.

need to teach people that there is a better alternative. host: in terms of generational wealth, homeownership is the biggest factor of that. how do we encourage and expand not just black homeownership but black generational wealth? guest: homeownership, what you combine is impacted by local -- you can buy is impacted by local zoning. much of this grew out of segregation in the early part of the 20th century. they were deliberately built to keep african-americans out of white communities. the g.i. bill did not benefit african-americans because of the way racial segregation worked. we need to break down those laws, lower the cost of housing generally, allow people to move freely around this country. those are things we can do today. host: given that blacks were

denied the benefit of that, in particular the mortgage homeownership benefit of that, would be proper for the government to address that in some form of program to assist homeownership? guest: i think we can do that without being racially specific by breaking down those zoning laws that prevent african-americans from buying into places that were formerly all-white. in general what we need to do is the laws say that we have gotten rid of the stuff that is racist. today we have the fallout from those policies that existed in the past and we need to make policies that encourage people to break down those legacies that still exist. host: (202) 748-8000 is the phone line for central and

eastern time zones. it is (202) 748-8001 for the mountain and pacific region. first up is george calling from tennessee. caller: hello. i would like to know how many black families live around the guest's neighborhood where he lives. he seems very high on his high horse. host: why do, you see that is important, george? caller: he sounds like he is putting down everybody in the united states. . where does he live? guest: i would say the majority of families on my street are people of color, african-american or latino. host: there you go, george. louise is next in rose hill, north carolina. good morning.

louise in north carolina. good morning. louise, you are on the air. caller: can you hear me? host: yes, go ahead. caller: i just wanted to say --i own a home here. but, i have noticed here --i am black, they are trying to keep us from owning homes here. one thing i noticed, i do not mind paying taxes. but, we pay city and county taxes. that is hard for us that are trying to own a home, because that is one way of losing your home. also, they devalue our houses lower than what the whites houses are. that was a comment i wanted to

make. host: thanks, louise. michael turner. guest: i think property taxes are a burden on low income homeowners. many policies we think of as being progressive actually all hardest on people at the bottom end of the income scale. we need to be careful that we are not simply enacting aggressive policies while making ourselves feel good about how progressive we are. host: our caller engine, she said there were lower appraisal rate estimates she said for some homes owned by african americans in that north carolina neighborhood. guest: i cannot speak to what is going on in her area. there have been reports about that. studies indicate there are -- they are less prevalent than commonly believed, or may have other factors involved. i have seen many reports of that. host: here we go to rodni in dallas. you are on, go ahead. caller: hey, gentlemen. i think there's two ways of

looking at racial disparities. i think we are getting one side this morning. you can either look at it as, blacks will be perpetual victims of their history or, there are perhaps some things the black community needs to look at in their own community. there was recently earlier this year, a black conservative summit with bob woodson and shelby steele, larry elder. one of the things, a couple things shelby points out in his book is that, in schools, blacks for some reason, it is not cool to be the smartest kid in the room. it is not cool to learn. it is not cool to compete. when we preach perpetual victimization, i think we are telling blacks, there is no way you are going to achieve. we totally ignore merit. the thing larry elder points out is that currently, 70% of all black children that are born every month in america are born without a father.

when you look at the asian community, the emphasis on pushing their asian american children to the forefront and to be the best, even though they may grow up and be immigrants and poor areas, the message they send to their kids is, you can be the best. they often are the best, whether indian or asian. the black community, we say you are a victim. there is no way you can achieve. i think -- we have spent trillions of dollars through the great society, all these programs. it is almost insulting that wax cannot move further up the economic chain then may have -- blacks cannot move further in the economic chain. we have tried to equalize opportunity in america. it is offensive we keep saying year after year and decade after decade that america needs to do more and more and more. i think meet to look inward to the black community then keep

saying they are victims, perpetual victimization. host: michael turner. guest: i do not necessarily see african-americans as victims. african-americans have risen in society. we have people who are business leaders, influential in many ways. i think african-americans can and have achieved. i think we need to look at those policies of the past and their legacy and look at policies that still exist today, like mass incarceration, like school systems that do not provide in african-american communities. they do exist and we need to pay attention to them. i do not think it is victimization to point out policies are not necessarily global. host: a couple of those black businessmen had a piece in the wall street journal over the weekend, the headline, a forgotten part of a milky's -- of mlk's dream. they write, so brilliantly did his speech succeed, americans

remember little else from that day. a lot of americans no king had a dream. it is important to a number that his words were in service to a cause. the massive civil rights protests that went down in history as the march on washington was officially called the march for jobs and freedom. jobs were a big part of the agenda. beneath the soaring rhetoric was a concrete hope that the private and public sectors working together would improve the economic picture for black americans. six decades later, they write, it is clear we have work to do. guest: we should note martin luther king in addition to talking about the dream he had talked about the promissory note for african-americans. we steal -- we still need to fulfill the obligation to pay off the rest of the note. we have made progress in this country. i think it plays down the fact what martin luther king and others did to bring us where we are today. i do not think you can have a

race were nine of the 10 -- was weighted down with weights. he shrugged them off and said, now we will have a fair race in the last lap. it does not work that way, either. at the same time, we can't go back and keep doing the same thing we have been doing in the past. we have been spending a great love money on government programs designed to relieve poverty. there are things we can do that are different and better. host: here is ronald calling from miami, florida. good morning. caller: my question is, what specific policy that we can ask for? today is a day of action. i would like to see martin luther king day as a day of action, where we get some of the stuff that can combat things that are going on.

what policy that we need to be demanding at this point as a black community? host: thanks, ronald. guest: a few things you can demand that could be done in the next couple of years. and, are readily achievable. you can eliminate exclusionary zoning and other practices that prevent the building of low-cost housing in many areas of this country. that is something that can be done on the local and state level quickly. second, we need to create more school choice. we need to have money follow the children, not necessarily follow school systems. so the parents can put children in whatever school they think is best for them. third, i think we need to deal with police reform from the top to the bottom from police brutality all the way up to dealing with how we make illegal in this country. many so-called crimes in this country are resulting in over

policing and over incarceration. host: a bit of a political question because you come from the cato institute, an organization with strong libertarian end. what is your view in terms of the -- african-americans in the democrat party verses in the republican party all these many years? guest: it has shifted over time. the african-americans were largely republican in the wake of the civil war up until the great society. then, you saw goldwater and other things that appealed more to the southern whites. you saw a shift in that. it is understandable. i do not see a lot of work by republicans to win over african-americans these days. a lot of what they are saying out there is racially divisive. that said, i think there is probably need in political parties to have the best interest of african-americans at heart. i think they are more concerned with preserving the status quo than making real change. host: scott calling from

seattle. hi there. caller: good morning. i have a couple comments. out here in seattle, we have got this horrible sprawl going on. a lot of people are taking a look at what kind of neighborhoods they want to live in, if they want green space, you know. i just do not think lowering the standards of how many houses you can build on a lot or whatever, it has caused a lot of density. i do not think it has made the neighborhoods any nicer. there is no parking in some of these cases. another thing we have going for us out here is, we have traditionally low interest rates going on right now, which makes it easier to get into a house. then, on the other hand, we have such huge legal immigration, so many people are coming out here that you can only densely packed

so many people in an area. without just really impacting the whole neighborhood. at least with the -- people are able to afford it plays out here. maybe in the south or someplace. anyway, i guess that was my comment. thank you. host: ok, scott. michael turner. guest: you have to look at how housing patterns developed over time. in the first part of the 20th century, zoning was explicitly racial. one of the very first racial zoning laws was in baltimore, maryland. it forbade you from selling or renting to anyone who was not already the majority race on that street or block. that was copied by many other cities. what happened was, whites were able to buy into areas that had green space that are nice areas right now. single-family homes and so on. the housing values went up. the cost of housing went up. now, african-americans were cut out from those areas to no

longer afford to buy in. that -- if you look at housing demographic maps through the 1920's and today, there is very little change. that has lot to do with the regulations and zoning laws we have put in place. host: the local regulations and zoning laws? guest: yes. these are not federal laws. these are at the local level. we should not exclude the federal government. with the explicit policy of the federal government, discouraged black homeownership and segregate black homeownership. host: why? guest: racist. host: to wayne in richmond, virginia. would morning. -- good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i'm so glad to hear what he just said about the dispersed city -- when it comes to african-americans or black people getting a chance of housing. even with the g.i. bill.

my call is specifically prompted by your caller previously mentioned how my other immigrants and minorities were proceeding in front of the african-americans or blacks. african men, or the african blacks were the only family that work lynched -- that work lynched. they were restricted in g.i. bills, redlining from banks. it is a battle just to be on board. those folks that came home from world war ii thought it would have had a better shot of life in america, it did not happen. you can't compare the life of the black man and america with the immigrants that are coming over here. i just want to bring that up. i appreciate your point you made about the racism, it is about financing. it is about housing.

it is about bettering the lives of our families. the racism piece has not diminished from the 1920's. thank you for what you're doing, sir. guest: thank you. i think you make a good point. the united states government has not been very good towards minorities of all stripes, whether we are talking about immigrants, whether we are talking about latinos, native americans and so on. we have a bad track record at the government level. in this country, despite the improvements we are making. that said, i think the african-american experience is unique grade i do not think any other minority group can say they have suffered the same way that african-americans have in this country. host: anthony, calling from chicago. you are on with michael turner. guest: good morning, mr. tanner. how are you? i wanted to ask you a couple of questions here and get to

understand a lot better your perspective on how essentially the free market or relaxing regulation is going to deliver and we will talk about housing, primarily. what i want to understand is, if there needs to be a lack of regulation to allow more homeownership. can you explain to me how that is not just going to allow with the free market always does, and that is the concentration of property and housing into fewer and fewer hands. i think the nation that is the best were cuba, the ussr and china where they actually just guaranteed housing and built housing directly for people. housing ownership was no longer a commodity to be bought and concentrated, but it was a right

for people. i will leave you also with the school voucher program. really, really quick. i want to understand why you think how the school choice vouchers are a solution to underfunded schools, which underfunded schools are underperforming schools -- yes. why, then, is the solution to take more money away from schools and send it to private institutions, leaving that school to continue in the downward spiral of underfunding? can you explain how that helps at all? thank you. host: ok. guest: i would say in those countries you mentioned, you had public provided housing until the government kicked you out for agreeing with government policies. we know parts of the country, there is a correlation between the strengths of zoning laws and availability of a horde -- of

affordable housing. how much it costs to buy a house and so on are related to the strengths of the zoning laws in those areas. we know government regulation drives up costs. in terms of school choice, some of those underperforming schools are the best funded schools in the nation. we spend more money in washington, d.c., baltimore, l.a. than anywhere else. yet, the school systems still underperform. if we increase the amount of education in this country, we know -- we see no corresponding increase in that nature. we can argue about whether or not how much we should be funding schools and what the best neck and is him is for that. in the meantime, low income children or african-american children stuck in bad schools today forced to suffer while we have that debate, or should we allow them to go to better schools? host: your view, states can have a well-funded public school system that a piece of that is a

choice? charter schools. guest: certainly, charter schools are an option. so our private schools, so is basically creating a tuition tax credit people can use for tutoring, private schools, the school of their choice. they can go to public school if they have a good public school in their neighborhood. what people are arguing when they argue against money following the child, the schools are so good that everyone would leave them if given a choice. some affect seems contradictory. host: we will go onto whiskey again, michigan and hear from jesse. caller: how are you doing this morning? host: doing fine, thank you. caller: i want to ask this gentleman, he was talking about reparations. what do you think about the 2% tax breaks for taxpayers?

the second thing, these people calling our trump people. i live in whiskey again -- there are people coming in getting food stamps. i am 91 years old. listen to me. i done seen it all. i was in mississippi. i was born in mississippi. i seen it all. if i could have been anything i wanted to be, i had an opportunity. all my kids, all my kids, are going to graduate. some went college. everybody is not doing well. the thing about it is, all my grandkids had to lose they job because being fired from they

job because of they color. my youngest daughter had a job here. she had to go to another city and get a job because the job she was working here, they were so jealous of her she had to go to another city to get a job. when she gets over there, they had to call her and ask her how to do the job she left. so many people understand, this guy calling from texas about black people being a victim -- what you think trump doing? this is stuff y'all trying to push over on people. we ain't buying it. host: thanks for getting through. glad to hear you got through and your experience. any comments, michael? guest: 91 years, a lot of wisdom. we could all learn from that. fact is, the playing field is not level largely because of government policy today.

winning over people's individual's hearts and minds, that is not so the government can do. it is not something politics can do. it is something we need to work on in our daily lives. certainly, government policies can change today and we should. host: mississippi up next, sarah. good morning. caller: yes, this is in reference to the gentleman who called from texas. it is really sad. white america does not know our history. that is what abbott and desantis and most of the united states is trying to keep out of the history books. but, never, ever compare a so-called african-american to any other ethnic group in this country. we were brought here. our names were taken. our religion, our culture. then, we sit here and -- my father was a world war ii veteran. he served over in okinawa.

when he came back home, he was not able to get agi loan. we talk about redlining. you know what is really great? every day, all of this disenfranchisement done to my people is coming to light. guest: i think the african-american experience in this country is unique. we need to look at it that way. second, we need to teach honest history, which is that this country has made progress, was founded on great ideals. that said, we have often failed to live up to those ideas. we have mistreated african-americans. there are still downstream consequences, despite the progress we have made. host: a question from bill in new york city, mlk new the importance of economic growth. we know specific things that

limited descendants of slavery. since you do not believe in reparations, what specifics do you need to increase -- decrease these limitations and level the economic playing field? guest: i think we do need economic growth. i am concerned about reparations. the money you spend, trillions of dollars in what we owe african-americans has been estimated to $20 trillion, that comes out of the economy. that means there will be fewer jobs, including african-americans. that is problematic. we need overall economic growth. second part, i think we need to look at those regulations and those areas that prevent african-americans from participating in the growth of the economy. occupational licensing laws are designed to protect and comments. things like occupational zoning which prevents african-americans from building in their own community, businesses, i think we need to look at zoning laws. i think we need to look at over incarceration and the way police street african-americans. we need to look at education. education is the best route out

of poverty. host: our previous guest talked about the change in the population in this city, the gentrification. what is your view on how that is done and the movement of the black population in particular out of those areas they once called home? guest: you have to look at the zoning laws as a problem. the fact is, we tended to up zone areas that are low income and minority driven. we tend to leave the upper income areas alone, where you cannot build low income housing in those areas. we push people out of those low income areas. we need to make sure the zoning is provided equally across the entire community. host: here is jesse calling from el paso, texas. go ahead. caller: good morning, everybody. i wanted to make a comment referring to mr. tanner and the young man who came on earlier this morning.

none of these researching foundations are doing anything to investigate wall street. wall street is the largest, if not the most powerful, oppressing organization. they set laws and government and they set laws throughout other organizations. the biggest oppressors is wall street. to make the point, there's three particular companies that they should do research on. that is blackrock, vanguard and state street. state street are going to control what minorities are trying to obtain, which is homeownership. if these organizations would just take a little time and to some research on these companies , they are going to find out they are going to be controlling if not everything will piece of rental properties and homeownership.

i really would like to hear what mr. tanner has to say about that. host: ok. guest: my biggest goal is to have more african-americans on wall street. we can create more african-american entrepreneurs and businesses to get listed on the dow and so on. so we can create or african-americans on wall street. in terms of the speculation in terms of housing, it is a problem. the best way to answer that is make them lose money. let's build more housing that will bring down the cost of the house and they will lose money. i do not feel bad if they do. host: is there a broader role for the low income tax credit plan that the federal government offers? guest: in terms of housing, changing zoning laws perpetuates more low income housing then does subsidizing low income housing. if you have businesses that are going to build housing they are not going to make profit off of,

they tend to build fewer units. the mandatory efforts we try to do to force them to build more low income housing simply has not been effective in building that housing as simply changing the rules. host: next up in mac in maryland. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you. such a very interesting conversation. you know, i wanted to know real quickly -- despond to one gentleman that called earlier, black people are not struggling and achieving because of the way we tend to think about ourselves. that is not true. black people are achieving in this country every day in the face of oppression and suppression. you know what is economic oppression, political tactics? we are achieving every day, from slavery, black people had nothing. nothing.

yet, we put our children through school. our children are graduating every day. the great thing -- the thing is, we are not doing this all by ourselves. i am not -- credits should be given to fair-minded people of all races out there that see justice as not been part of the human race and are fighting it every day. black people are achieving. real quick, what i wanted to say about the gentleman that is on right now about helping, trying to create equality and all these things. we can create government mandate, government, all kinds of projects -- we do not get too far with these projects.

what we really need is to regulate and pay, to make sure people get paid fairly for the work they do. simple example, i will use one example. there is a particular business right now. a lot of black folks are in the rideshare business, minorities, not just black full but minorities. this rideshare company, whether food delivery or what have you -- people transporter, they are ripping people off. 50%, 60% of the fair. in some cases, i see them take 70%. host: i will let you go there, we are running short on time. let's give michael tanner a chance to respond. guest: i would also say we

should look at the other side, the gig economy has provided many entries into entrepreneurship for minorities, especially immigrant group and african-americans. we do not want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. host: the bigger, broader question is -- he talked about wages. you think wage growth in this country has kept pace with the growth of the economy? guest: the evidence suggests that it has not for various reasons. that productivity and wage growth normally go hand in hand. we have seen wage growth below productivity, but not that much. i think you are trying to wage growth to a certain level, it is only going to have more effects on the economy overall. host: one more, this is john calling from memphis. you are on. caller: good morning, thanks for

taking my call. i am an 81-year-old black american. when i called for is, we have a disparity because anything in this city, you going to be -- you be charged with a felony. [indiscernible] host: john, you are breaking up there. say that again. caller: anything that we do in this city where i live, you get a felony. when you get a felony, it stops. you cannot get no money, you cannot buy no money, you can buy no houses or rent no houses. host: it is tough to hear you, but i think we got the point. michael tanner. guest: absolutely. that is why we need judicial reform, police reform from the bottom to the top. as we know that once you obtain a criminal record, it makes it

very hard for you to succeed in life. it is hard for you to get a job, go to school, get housing and so on. having that criminal record is a real problem. i know some states are trying to make it easier to expunge criminal records. if you kept things clean over the last several years and had a minor offense when you are young, those are the types of things we should be pursuing now. host: michael tanner is writing now at the foundation research on equal opportunity. find more at feropp.org. michael tanner, senior fellow there. thanks for being with us. guest: my pleasure. host: morehead on the program on "washington journal" on this 60th anniversary of the march on washington. our question for you, have you seen progress in racial equality over the past 60 years? if you say yes, the line is (202) 748-8000. the answer is no, the line is (202) 748-8001. we will get to your calls after the break. ♪

♪ >> craig nelson and his book, v is for victory, reports on the number of casualties from world war ii. he writes, according to the u.s. department of defense military casualties were 1,078,000 400-5000 killed, 600 73,115 were wounded. according to the bureau of labor statistics, there were over 8.9 million americans more interesting worker casualties. 75,000 died, 8.8 million were wounded between 1942 and 1945. author craig nelson further says across history, the arsenal of democracy has come to mean this miracle manufactung.

when president roosevelt often used the term, he meant the miracle of the american people. >> author craig nelson on this episode of book notes plus. book notes plus is availab o the freak c-span now mobile app forever you get your podcasts. ♪ >> this year, book tv marks 25 years of shining a spotlight on leading nonfiction authors and their books. from author talks, interviews, festivals, book tv has provided that woods with a front row seat to the latest literary discussions on history, politics and more. you can watch a book tv every sunday on c-span 29 at tv.org. book tv, 25 years of television for serious readers.

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>> "washington journal" continues. host: we are alive looking down from the lincoln memorial across the reflect pool at the washington monument and the nation's capital on the day of the 60th anniversary of the march on washington, the march for jobs and freedom. as it was officially titled. in our final 25 minutes or so of the program, asking you the question, have you seen progress in racial equality over the past 60 years? the lines to use our, if you say yes, it is (202) 748-8000. if you say no, (202) 748-8001. tell us more about that. where are you seeing it in the country? in your community, your personal life in particular? some political news for you from politico, the headline desantis pauses campaigning as florida faces dual crises.

florida governor ron desantis canceled campaign events this week, the major storm airs down on the state and in the aftermath of a horrific racially motivated shooting in jacksonville. dissent said during a sunday news conference he will remain in florida in the coming days. the storm expected to become a hurricane and make landfall somewhere along the gulf coast later this week continues to approach florida. let's get to your calls and comments on this 60th anniversary on the march on washington. robin is in waldorf, maryland on the yes line. caller: hi. i think things have changed. we have had many opportunities. what i do see happen as an african-american, the more we advance, then they change the laws. when they cs advancing and --

see us advancing and meeting the rules, they say, ok, and start changing the laws. i am an educator. we talk about education. from when i came in the game, now when i have teachers and we are trying to motivate kids to become an educator, it is so much harder just to become an educator. so many laws need to change. the benefit is not rewarding. therefore, you have no teachers. it is not as advantageous. teaching was a great profession at one time. now, i am doing all of this. i have to go to school and pass these tests. which they make hard for us. this is all i am getting? i think every time we advance, they make it harder for us to

move up. when they see us advancing, they say, you are advancing too much. let's change the laws and make it more difficult. that is across the board with anything. housing, loans, anything. host: thanks for calling, robin. calling from arizona, go ahead. caller: good morning, america. how are you? lots of friends of all races and backgrounds, it is an interesting subject. a couple of things. the only person i see with this ultra white privilege is the guy with hunter biden that can get away with doing whatever he wants and the media covers his back. i sure do not have that. as far as people changing the laws and stuff like that, i think that is a perfect example. white privilege, a guy like hunter biden. america is still a good country.

better than 60 years ago. it has its issues, but it is for everybody. if america is so bad, why is everybody still trying to get over here? we need to come together. most of these people are way too brainwashed by the media and politicians, divide and conquer. there is money to be made and a good life to be had. people like to be more positive. host: baltimore, maryland is next. emma is on the yes line. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. i guess i should be a may be line, i am in between a yes and no. i think we have made strides. i think it is where used, meaning where you come from, where your foundation is depends on if you see if there has been a change or growth. in my situation, i come from a mother and a father who were limited educated but took us out

of poverty from where they came to middle-class, lower middle class. now, i am a little upper-middle-class and my children are doing a lot better than me. i think it is where used, how you still believe we have a long way to go as a society and bridging a gap. there is a gap between the haves and the have-nots. i guess that is my comment. host: tell us about your mom and dad. what kind of work did they do and what kind of work do you do now? guest: ok. caller: ok. my father was a laborer on a heated jobs. my mom was in the medical field at the end of her career. she worked as a housekeeper. she worked as a cook. they had to be on menial jobs. from where they came from, my mother and her parents did not have a bathroom in the house.

they used our house. she came from that to bringing us up in a townhouse, which had running plumbing. for her, that was great movement. my father, his family -- my grandparents had, my grandfather built their home. they were a little more affluent, but still on the low wind of -- low end of the threshold of earnings. that is what my parents did. my father, when he passed away, he was working for a floral company delivering flowers. my parents did not make a lot of money, but they instilled in us hard work and dedication to whatever it is we chose to do. that is how i grew up. host: great. i'm glad you called in. a headline from nbc news, chicago this money. biden and harris to meet with mlk junior's family on the 60th

anniversary of the march on washington. president joe biden and kamala harris will eat with martin luther king jr.'s family in washington where king delivered his famous i have a dream speech at the lincoln memorial. all of king's children have been invited. white fit -- the democratic president was taking a page out of history by opening the oval office to king's family on august 28, 1863, the day of the march on washington. john f. kennedy also welcomed king and other key marchers to the oval office for a meeting that day. let's go to brownsburg, indiana and hear from kevin on the no line. tell us why. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. reason why i say no is because of what your definition of progress is. i think it would be safe to say we are worst off then maybe 70 ears ago. i heard people calling in with statistics saying the black

family broke up and 70% of black kids are born in unwed families. it was not always like that. we have black wall street, rosewood, stuff like that. it took a dollar to get out of the black community 15 months now, it takes about 15 minutes for the black dollar to get out of community. forced immigration was the worst to happen to black. -- to black people. i think we should know how to take care of our own. you have little italy, chinatown, stuff like that. i think we should have had our own town and stuff and that way when we come to the table, we have something to offer instead of being at the table. i hear people call in, one gentleman saying something about the victim mentality. two things can be true at the same time. i do not believe in just black and white, i believe in color.

even in the mortgage industry, appraisal industry or getting loans or walking into a building just because of my color, i get denied. in military training -- he said, i can do more damage to you without putting my hands on you. a lot of people think because we are not hanging from a tree we have progressed. they bt with putting a felony on your record. i will be 50 years old next year. when i was 15 i caught a felony. my mother could not afford a lawyer and get that felony taken off when i turned 21. i would still be in the mentality of being a victim because i would not be able to get certain housing and government assistance. that is one way i think we regressed. our young black men get a felony. once you get a felony, it is

uphill from there. host: how long did that stay on your record? how long did that hover over you getting a job or things like that? guest: i was 17 when i caught a felony. because my case was so serious, they waived be over to a jail. part of my plea-bargain stated that if i stayed out of trouble for a year, they would lower it to a class a misdemeanor. i was able to go to the middle terry -- to the middle -- to the military and be a firefighter. host: i mentioned a meeting at the white house for the president and vice president with the king family. a photograph taken on this day in 1963 in the oval office with president john f. kennedy here, martin luther king junior, dr. martin luther king jr. here. here is vice president lyndon johnson who in less than three months would become president. after the assassination of john

f. kennedy in november of 1963. the video there of that photo we just showed you. iris on the line from palm coast, florida. good morning. caller: i want to take you back from slavery to today, all the way up through reconstruction. slavery, ok. reconstruction, we had a good chance but this country -- for this country to live up to its meaning. the ku klux klan came in, all the way up from the reconstruction to the -- another 200 years of jim crow and segregation. they just showed john f. kennedy, he was shot and killed. he was assassinated.

johnson stepped in and carried out his politics. rosa parks had to get up out of her seat from working all day. some white male standing up over her to take her seat and sit down. look at that picture. ok. in the 1960's all the way up until now, it is fact from reagan to so-called conservative movement -- all right? the white supremacists was coming up, but that was soft. obama came in to become president, jealousy. trump. host: let me go back to your comment about reconstruction. if you look back in history, you look back in reconstruction, in a perfect world if you look back, lincoln had not been assassinated -- reconstruction had worked, what do using the

legacy of reconstruction might have been for african-americans? caller: you look at the history of black wall street. look at oklahoma, rosewood, florida. it always had good white people, not all bad. it -- at one time, black people could not even pick up a book to learn how to read or write to get an education. but, some people was good. they taught the black people how to read and write. rosa parks -- [indiscernible] you have them up north to bring them back into slavery. black and white were saved. it is called -- and jane go unchanged. host: david in conroe, texas.

good morning. caller: good morning, thanks for taking my call. i am calling you from texas, where i have lived since 1992. i'm originally from mississippi. i grew up in a small town, that is where the tornado went through and fairly well decimated the small town. my wife and i are from that town. we grew up there. she is my high school sweetheart. we have been married now just past 50 years. i am 70 years old. while i recognize that, yes, a lot of things have happened in the past, i grew up in mississippi. i chopped cotton as a young boy. i saw a lot the things that occurred racially during that time.

but, to say that we have not made progress as a nation, i think it is completely untrue. we have made progress. yes, there are still individuals that are racist. there will always be individuals that will be racist. but, in all spectrums but of our economy, there are hispanic people that are racist, white people that are racist. those are individuals and i think that so much has been done in our case. i served 21 years in the air force. i completed my bachelor's degree. then, i went into business for four years and ended up selling the business to a company that i then worked for for the next

21 years. i have been retired for two and a half years. my wife and i raised two children, one of which is an attorney and the other one is an executive office manager for a junior college president out in california. we committed ourselves to staying together, working hard. there were people who helped us along the way that were black people people and white people that helped us -- there were some people who tried to stand against us. i do not know that, sometimes, it was probably racially motivated. sometimes, it is just because of jealousy or whatever the case may be right ultimately, i would say as a nation, yes. there has been much improvement. i have lived in three countries. we lived 10 years consecutively overseas. we lived in the philippines four years.

we lived in germany for six years. i lived in south korea for a year without my family. when you see things in other countries, it helps you appreciate your own country. i think that is part of it. you do not have to live in another country to appreciate your own country. i think there are a lot of people who have never lived in another country, but who appreciate this country, the united states of america. i am thankful that i was born here. i am thankful for the progress that we have made, yes. again, there were huge prejudices that have taken place in the past. we just returned from a trip from a funeral in clarksdale, mississippi. we went to the town of mount bayou, mississippi. there is certainly a history there. there are histories and other

places, as well. but, again, as a country, i feel that we have made tremendous progress. host: glad you got through. congratulations to you and your wi-fi your 50 plus years. thanks for the call. anthony is in chattanooga, tennessee. good morning. caller: i do not anything has changed. let's quit pretending. there is a sickness going on here in america. i believe donald trump has allowed white privilege to come to power. just the other day, black people were murdered. that lets you know right there that nothing has changed. thank you very much. host: albany, georgia is next. larry on the yes line, as well. good morning. caller: yes. look. i want to talk about some of the white heroes by doing the demonstration.

a year ago, my mother is 103 years old. my mother was there during the depression and demonstrations. the reason i want to talk about white heroes is because these are white american citizens that stood shoulder to shoulder with us during the demonstration. there was a lot of our white brothers and sisters that was killed during the demonstrations because they believed in democracy, they believed in law and order. to come up today, to hear the guest said we have not made progress -- i have nine children. those children, because of the white people that also stood to help innovate the schools in the 1970's, which during that time, the black, white, went to school

together. they was friends. they became married. we had homes together. we have a multicultural united states at this time because of what a lot of white citizens have done to help the black people move along. if other black people would speak up about what some white american citizens have done, they would find out that we are so far along that we can start our own -- if we want to. we have got millions and millions of black citizens now that are millionaires. host: all right, larry. we are looking at video there of the 1963 march, photo of the 2023 march which happened on saturday. today is the anniversary of the march, happened on saturday. members of delta sigma theta

sorority gathered to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the march on washington for jobs and freedom, the headline of the piece, activists voiced concern during march over country's direction. more work needed on civil rights 60th anniversary. calling from arizona, stephen is next. good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead with your comment. caller: i would like to say as a republican american, i think martin luther king was one of the greatest americans to come out of the 20th century. i want to make a comment on an earlier caller about loans. i was in the auto business for 40 years. and dave loans out. -- gave loans out. thanks determine it, scores determinate. they are colorblind. i have turned down more whites.

they could not get a car because of their credit history. the thing i do not like about democrats today, they have entitled a lot of minorities to think, i did not get this loan because of my race. i am telling you, if you have a good credit score, we jump over backwards to get you into a car. that is all i have to say. ok. host: to britney in hollywood, florida. good morning. caller: good morning. host: you are on the air. caller: thank you for having me. i believe there has been progress made. they have to attribute that to figures of the past and their hard work. however, i am in my early 30's. it is a popular thought amongst younger african-americans that desegregation is the worst thing that happened to the black

immunity. that is attributed to the lack of ability for a lot of black-owned businesses to be able to compare to other businesses and other markets. college sports, now that black americans do not have to go to hbcus, you have this huge basketball, football, generating money for predominantly white institutions and have a lot of hbcus that are struggling with funds today. however, one of my friends made the statement. she is asian american. my mother is in her 60's and my grandmother is in her 80's. they looked at her like she has three heads. to them, it is like -- we would not be having this conversation in this neighborhood had there not been desegregation. you have to recognize the progress that has been made. a lot of times, it is not very

visible. people that were born after a certain time -- there are visible inequalities we can all see. i think realizing the capabilities we do have, that the way to help us move forward mentally so that we can actually make gains. host: all right, brittany. appreciate your comments. your last word on it this morning, thanks for all our calls this morning. that will about do it for "washington journal" on this monday morning, the 60th anniversary we have been saying from the lincoln memorial all day long. we thank our camera crew. we thank you for participating in the program. we are back tomorrow morning at 7:00. we hope you are, as well. ♪

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