the american enterprise institute president discusses campaign 2024, the republican party and the future of conservatism. then a former north dakota senator talks about rural voters and campaign 2024. c-span's "washington journal", join the conversations live at 7:00 eastern tuesday morning, on c-span, c-span now, or online at the span.org. -- c-span.org. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we're funded by these television companies and more including charter communications. >> charter is pleased to be recognized as one of the best internet providers. we're getting started building 100,000 miles of new infrastrre to reach those who need it most. >> charter communication support c-span is a public service, along with these other

television providers giving you a front-row seat to democracy. >> and we are joined by michael tanner, who was a senior fellow at the foundation for research on equal opportunity on this 60th anniversary of the march on washington. welcome back to "washington journal". folks have seen you over the years on this program and this network with the cato institute for many years. you made the move over to the foundation for research on equal opportunity. what prompted that move? guest:guest: what prompted it is the unique focus that the foundation has, which is lower income americans and how we can best utilize individual liberty and free markets to empower people at the lower end of the income scale and find ways we can create more equity in america. host: we started this program asking our viewers on progress

inequality in the 60 years since that march on washington. what is your view, focusing on the economic aspect of that? guest: we have made progress but nowhere near enough. african-americans still suffer from the downstream effects of slavery and jim crow. you have higher black unemployment, more black property -- black poverty. we still have a long way to go, if we want to create true equality in this country. host: we had a color earlier during that segment that said march -- caller earlier during that segment that said the march was all about dr. king calling for reparations. you have a piece recently that instead of reparations, we

should expand opportunity for african-americans. guest: reparations are not a frivolous idea. african-americans do not play on a level playing field today. much of that leveling has to do with policy as we have pursued in this country for centuries and those consequences are still playing out. it is not a frivolous idea and it is one that is not plausible. it would -- there are other approaches we can take. increase the opportunity for african-americans. that includes things like creating more educational toys and giving parents more control over their children's education,

dealing with exclusionary zoning so african-americans can move into more neighborhoods and not be prisoners of their zip code. increasing black entrepreneurship. those are all things we can do that i think would be more politically attainable than reparations. host: start with the education piece of that. why do you think the idea of school choice in this country gets to be so controversial? guest: certainly a very powerful interest in terms of the teachers unions but most people talk about the schools being bad overall but their own local school is something they love. it is very hard to talk about making those types of changes. the reality is if you are in many african-american communities, the schools are not as good as those in the white suburbs.

because you have difficulty moving to the suburbs, you are at the mercy of your zip code for education, and that is simply wrong. we should be talking about what is asked for children. host: what about in the area of homeownership? we talked about this in the last segment as well. exclusionary zoning, the decades long affective exclusionary zoning, the biden administration has made a push to incentivize localities to get rid of those zoning barriers. do you agree with efforts like that? guest: what the biden administration is trying to do is more been counting than what i would like to see, but there are ways we can -- those localities that refused to

adjust their zoning laws and make multi-family housing available will have to face some penalties in terms of finances. host: our guest is michael tanner. we welcome your calls and comments. (202) 748-8000 is the line for the central and eastern time zones. (202) 748-8001 is the line for mountain and pacific. does this change your opinion on -- guest: we have been out here talking about entitlement, which i care deeply about because we don't want to rob the legacy of our children, i think it is more important that we deal with the fact that we have too much poverty in this country and we need to focus on how we can best raise people from the bottom up. host: what other areas on this 60th anniversary -- we talked about housing -- what other

areas have blacks made the most progress? guest: there are a large number of black entrepreneurs today. black people have moved into business in a way that they were not able to in the 60's so we have a glowing black middle class. have more blacks going to college and university. we have more african americans making advances but in all of these areas we can do better. host: in terms of entrepreneurship has the trump administration or is the binding administration focusing on doing enough to -- the biden administration focusing on doing enough to support that? guest: we need to be looking at occupational zoning. we need to be looking at something as simple as who gets liquor licenses and who doesn't. guest: why do -- host: why do those things happen

today? guest: special interests. the status quo is very powerful. a lot of it is just education. need to teach people that there is a better alternative. host: in terms of generational wealth, homeownership is the biggest factor of that. how do we encourage and expand not just black homeownership but black generational wealth? guest: homeownership, what you combine is impacted by local -- you can buy is impacted by local zoning. much of this grew out of segregation in the early part of the 20th century. they were deliberately built to keep african-americans out of white communities. the g.i. bill did not benefit african-americans because of the way racial segregation worked. we need to break down those

laws, lower the cost of housing generally, allow people to move freely around this country. those are things we can do today. host: given that blacks were denied the benefit of that, in particular the mortgage homeownership benefit of that, would be proper for the government to address that in some form of program to assist homeownership? guest: i think we can do that without being racially specific by breaking down those zoning laws that prevent african-americans from buying into places that were formerly all-white. in general what we need to do is the laws say that we have gotten rid of the stuff that is racist. today we have the fallout from those policies that existed in the past and we need to make

policies that encourage people to break down those legacies that still exist. host: (202) 748-8000 is the phone line for central and eastern time zones. it is (202) 748-8001 for the mountain and pacific region. first up is george calling from tennessee. caller: hello. i would like to know how many black families live around the guest's neighborhood where he lives. he seems very high on his high horse. host: why do, you see that is important, george? caller: he sounds like he is putting down everybody in the united states. . where does he live? guest: i would say the majority of families on my street are people of color,

african-american or latino. host: there you go, george. louise is next in rose hill, north carolina. good morning. louise in north carolina. good morning. louise, you are on the air. caller: can you hear me? host: yes, go ahead. caller: i just wanted to say --i own a home here. but, i have noticed here --i am black, they are trying to keep us from owning homes here. one thing i noticed, i do not mind paying taxes. but, we pay city and county taxes. that is hard for us that are trying to own a home, because that is one way of losing your home.

also, they devalue our houses lower than what the whites houses are. that was a comment i wanted to make. host: thanks, louise. michael turner. guest: i think property taxes are a burden on low income homeowners. many policies we think of as being progressive actually all hardest on people at the bottom end of the income scale. we need to be careful that we are not simply enacting aggressive policies while making ourselves feel good about how progressive we are. host: our caller engine, she said there were lower appraisal rate estimates she said for some homes owned by african americans in that north carolina neighborhood. guest: i cannot speak to what is going on in her area. there have been reports about that. studies indicate there are -- they are less prevalent than commonly believed, or may have other factors involved. i have seen many reports of that.

host: here we go to rodni in dallas. you are on, go ahead. caller: hey, gentlemen. i think there's two ways of looking at racial disparities. i think we are getting one side this morning. you can either look at it as, blacks will be perpetual victims of their history or, there are perhaps some things the black community needs to look at in their own community. there was recently earlier this year, a black conservative summit with bob woodson and shelby steele, larry elder. one of the things, a couple things shelby points out in his book is that, in schools, blacks for some reason, it is not cool to be the smartest kid in the room. it is not cool to learn. it is not cool to compete. when we preach perpetual victimization, i think we are telling blacks, there is no way you are going to achieve. we totally ignore merit.

the thing larry elder points out is that currently, 70% of all black children that are born every month in america are born without a father. when you look at the asian community, the emphasis on pushing their asian american children to the forefront and to be the best, even though they may grow up and be immigrants and poor areas, the message they send to their kids is, you can be the best. they often are the best, whether indian or asian. the black community, we say you are a victim. there is no way you can achieve. i think -- we have spent trillions of dollars through the great society, all these programs. it is almost insulting that wax cannot move further up the economic chain then may have -- blacks cannot move further in the economic chain. we have tried to equalize opportunity in america. it is offensive we keep saying

year after year and decade after decade that america needs to do more and more and more. i think meet to look inward to the black community then keep saying they are victims, perpetual victimization. host: michael turner. guest: i do not necessarily see african-americans as victims. african-americans have risen in society. we have people who are business leaders, influential in many ways. i think african-americans can and have achieved. i think we need to look at those policies of the past and their legacy and look at policies that still exist today, like mass incarceration, like school systems that do not provide in african-american communities. they do exist and we need to pay attention to them. i do not think it is victimization to point out policies are not necessarily global. host: a couple of those black businessmen had a piece in the wall street journal over the

weekend, the headline, a forgotten part of a milky's -- of mlk's dream. they write, so brilliantly did his speech succeed, americans remember little else from that day. a lot of americans no king had a dream. it is important to a number that his words were in service to a cause. the massive civil rights protests that went down in history as the march on washington was officially called the march for jobs and freedom. jobs were a big part of the agenda. beneath the soaring rhetoric was a concrete hope that the private and public sectors working together would improve the economic picture for black americans. six decades later, they write, it is clear we have work to do. guest: we should note martin luther king in addition to talking about the dream he had talked about the promissory note for african-americans. we steal -- we still need to fulfill the obligation to pay off the rest of the note. we have made progress in this

country. i think it plays down the fact what martin luther king and others did to bring us where we are today. i do not think you can have a race were nine of the 10 -- was weighted down with weights. he shrugged them off and said, now we will have a fair race in the last lap. it does not work that way, either. at the same time, we can't go back and keep doing the same thing we have been doing in the past. we have been spending a great love money on government programs designed to relieve poverty. there are things we can do that are different and better. host: here is ronald calling from miami, florida. good morning. caller: my question is, what specific policy that we can ask for? today is a day of action. i would like to see martin luther king day as a day of action, where we get some of the

stuff that can combat things that are going on. what policy that we need to be demanding at this point as a black community? host: thanks, ronald. guest: a few things you can demand that could be done in the next couple of years. and, are readily achievable. you can eliminate exclusionary zoning and other practices that prevent the building of low-cost housing in many areas of this country. that is something that can be done on the local and state level quickly. second, we need to create more school choice. we need to have money follow the children, not necessarily follow school systems. so the parents can put children in whatever school they think is best for them. third, i think we need to deal with police reform from the top to the bottom from police

brutality all the way up to dealing with how we make illegal in this country. many so-called crimes in this country are resulting in over policing and over incarceration. host: a bit of a political question because you come from the cato institute, an organization with strong libertarian end. what is your view in terms of the -- african-americans in the democrat party verses in the republican party all these many years? guest: it has shifted over time. the african-americans were largely republican in the wake of the civil war up until the great society. then, you saw goldwater and other things that appealed more to the southern whites. you saw a shift in that. it is understandable. i do not see a lot of work by republicans to win over african-americans these days. a lot of what they are saying out there is racially divisive. that said, i think there is

probably need in political parties to have the best interest of african-americans at heart. i think they are more concerned with preserving the status quo than making real change. host: scott calling from seattle. hi there. caller: good morning. i have a couple comments. out here in seattle, we have got this horrible sprawl going on. a lot of people are taking a look at what kind of neighborhoods they want to live in, if they want green space, you know. i just do not think lowering the standards of how many houses you can build on a lot or whatever, it has caused a lot of density. i do not think it has made the neighborhoods any nicer. there is no parking in some of these cases. another thing we have going for us out here is, we have traditionally low interest rates going on right now, which makes it easier to get into a house.

then, on the other hand, we have such huge legal immigration, so many people are coming out here that you can only densely packed so many people in an area. without just really impacting the whole neighborhood. at least with the -- people are able to afford it plays out here. maybe in the south or someplace. anyway, i guess that was my comment. thank you. host: ok, scott. michael turner. guest: you have to look at how housing patterns developed over time. in the first part of the 20th century, zoning was explicitly racial. one of the very first racial zoning laws was in baltimore, maryland. it forbade you from selling or renting to anyone who was not already the majority race on that street or block. that was copied by many other cities. what happened was, whites were able to buy into areas that had

green space that are nice areas right now. single-family homes and so on. the housing values went up. the cost of housing went up. now, african-americans were cut out from those areas to no longer afford to buy in. that -- if you look at housing demographic maps through the 1920's and today, there is very little change. that has lot to do with the regulations and zoning laws we have put in place. host: the local regulations and zoning laws? guest: yes. these are not federal laws. these are at the local level. we should not exclude the federal government. with the explicit policy of the federal government, discouraged black homeownership and segregate black homeownership. host: why? guest: racist. host: to wayne in richmond, virginia. would morning. -- good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i'm so glad to hear what he just said about the dispersed city --

when it comes to african-americans or black people getting a chance of housing. even with the g.i. bill. my call is specifically prompted by your caller previously mentioned how my other immigrants and minorities were proceeding in front of the african-americans or blacks. african men, or the african blacks were the only family that work lynched -- that work lynched. they were restricted in g.i. bills, redlining from banks. it is a battle just to be on board. those folks that came home from world war ii thought it would have had a better shot of life in america, it did not happen. you can't compare the life of the black man and america with the immigrants that are coming over here.

i just want to bring that up. i appreciate your point you made about the racism, it is about financing. it is about housing. it is about bettering the lives of our families. the racism piece has not diminished from the 1920's. thank you for what you're doing, sir. guest: thank you. i think you make a good point. the united states government has not been very good towards minorities of all stripes, whether we are talking about immigrants, whether we are talking about latinos, native americans and so on. we have a bad track record at the government level. in this country, despite the improvements we are making. that said, i think the african-american experience is unique grade i do not think any other minority group can say they have suffered the same way that african-americans have in this country. host: anthony, calling from

chicago. you are on with michael turner. guest: good morning, mr. tanner. how are you? i wanted to ask you a couple of questions here and get to understand a lot better your perspective on how essentially the free market or relaxing regulation is going to deliver and we will talk about housing, primarily. what i want to understand is, if there needs to be a lack of regulation to allow more homeownership. can you explain to me how that is not just going to allow with the free market always does, and that is the concentration of property and housing into fewer and fewer hands. i think the nation that is the best were cuba, the ussr and china where they actually just guaranteed housing and built

housing directly for people. housing ownership was no longer a commodity to be bought and concentrated, but it was a right for people. i will leave you also with the school voucher program. really, really quick. i want to understand why you think how the school choice vouchers are a solution to underfunded schools, which underfunded schools are underperforming schools -- yes. why, then, is the solution to take more money away from schools and send it to private institutions, leaving that school to continue in the downward spiral of underfunding? can you explain how that helps at all? thank you. host: ok. guest: i would say in those countries you mentioned, you had public provided housing until the government kicked you out

for agreeing with government policies. we know parts of the country, there is a correlation between the strengths of zoning laws and availability of a horde -- of affordable housing. how much it costs to buy a house and so on are related to the strengths of the zoning laws in those areas. we know government regulation drives up costs. in terms of school choice, some of those underperforming schools are the best funded schools in the nation. we spend more money in washington, d.c., baltimore, l.a. than anywhere else. yet, the school systems still underperform. if we increase the amount of education in this country, we know -- we see no corresponding increase in that nature. we can argue about whether or not how much we should be funding schools and what the best neck and is him is for that. in the meantime, low income children or african-american children stuck in bad schools

today forced to suffer while we have that debate, or should we allow them to go to better schools? host: your view, states can have a well-funded public school system that a piece of that is a choice? charter schools. guest: certainly, charter schools are an option. so our private schools, so is basically creating a tuition tax credit people can use for tutoring, private schools, the school of their choice. they can go to public school if they have a good public school in their neighborhood. what people are arguing when they argue against money following the child, the schools are so good that everyone would leave them if given a choice. some affect seems contradictory. host: we will go onto whiskey again, michigan and hear from jesse. caller: how are you doing this morning? host: doing fine, thank you. caller: i want to ask this gentleman, he was talking about reparations.

what do you think about the 2% tax breaks for taxpayers? the second thing, these people calling our trump people. i live in whiskey again -- there are people coming in getting food stamps. i am 91 years old. listen to me. i done seen it all. i was in mississippi. i was born in mississippi. i seen it all. if i could have been anything i wanted to be, i had an opportunity. all my kids, all my kids, are going to graduate. some went college. everybody is not doing well.

the thing about it is, all my grandkids had to lose they job because being fired from they job because of they color. my youngest daughter had a job here. she had to go to another city and get a job because the job she was working here, they were so jealous of her she had to go to another city to get a job. when she gets over there, they had to call her and ask her how to do the job she left. so many people understand, this guy calling from texas about black people being a victim -- what you think trump doing? this is stuff y'all trying to push over on people. we ain't buying it. host: thanks for getting through. glad to hear you got through and your experience.

any comments, michael? guest: 91 years, a lot of wisdom. we could all learn from that. fact is, the playing field is not level largely because of government policy today. winning over people's individual's hearts and minds, that is not so the government can do. it is not something politics can do. it is something we need to work on in our daily lives. certainly, government policies can change today and we should. host: mississippi up next, sarah. good morning. caller: yes, this is in reference to the gentleman who called from texas. it is really sad. white america does not know our history. that is what abbott and desantis and most of the united states is trying to keep out of the history books. but, never, ever compare a so-called african-american to any other ethnic group in this country. we were brought here. our names were taken. our religion, our culture.

then, we sit here and -- my father was a world war ii veteran. he served over in okinawa. when he came back home, he was not able to get agi loan. we talk about redlining. you know what is really great? every day, all of this disenfranchisement done to my people is coming to light. guest: i think the african-american experience in this country is unique. we need to look at it that way. second, we need to teach honest history, which is that this country has made progress, was founded on great ideals. that said, we have often failed to live up to those ideas. we have mistreated african-americans. there are still downstream consequences, despite the

progress we have made. host: a question from bill in new york city, mlk new the importance of economic growth. we know specific things that limited descendants of slavery. since you do not believe in reparations, what specifics do you need to increase -- decrease these limitations and level the economic playing field? guest: i think we do need economic growth. i am concerned about reparations. the money you spend, trillions of dollars in what we owe african-americans has been estimated to $20 trillion, that comes out of the economy. that means there will be fewer jobs, including african-americans. that is problematic. we need overall economic growth. second part, i think we need to look at those regulations and those areas that prevent african-americans from participating in the growth of the economy. occupational licensing laws are designed to protect and comments. things like occupational zoning which prevents african-americans from building in their own community, businesses, i think

we need to look at zoning laws. i think we need to look at over incarceration and the way police street african-americans. we need to look at education. education is the best route out of poverty. host: our previous guest talked about the change in the population in this city, the gentrification. what is your view on how that is done and the movement of the black population in particular out of those areas they once called home? guest: you have to look at the zoning laws as a problem. the fact is, we tended to up zone areas that are low income and minority driven. we tend to leave the upper income areas alone, where you cannot build low income housing in those areas. we push people out of those low income areas. we need to make sure the zoning is provided equally across the entire community. host: here is jesse calling from el paso, texas.

go ahead. caller: good morning, everybody. i wanted to make a comment referring to mr. tanner and the young man who came on earlier this morning. none of these researching foundations are doing anything to investigate wall street. wall street is the largest, if not the most powerful, oppressing organization. they set laws and government and they set laws throughout other organizations. the biggest oppressors is wall street. to make the point, there's three particular companies that they should do research on. that is blackrock, vanguard and state street. state street are going to control what minorities are trying to obtain, which is homeownership. if these organizations would just take a little time and to some research on these companies

, they are going to find out they are going to be controlling if not everything will piece of rental properties and homeownership. i really would like to hear what mr. tanner has to say about that. host: ok. guest: my biggest goal is to have more african-americans on wall street. we can create more african-american entrepreneurs and businesses to get listed on the dow and so on. so we can create or african-americans on wall street. in terms of the speculation in terms of housing, it is a problem. the best way to answer that is make them lose money. let's build more housing that will bring down the cost of the house and they will lose money. i do not feel bad if they do. host: is there a broader role for the low income tax credit plan that the federal government offers? guest: in terms of housing,

changing zoning laws perpetuates more low income housing then does subsidizing low income housing. if you have businesses that are going to build housing they are not going to make profit off of, they tend to build fewer units. the mandatory efforts we try to do to force them to build more low income housing simply has not been effective in building that housing as simply changing the rules. host: next up in mac in maryland. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you. such a very interesting conversation. you know, i wanted to know real quickly -- despond to one gentleman that called earlier, black people are not struggling and achieving because of the way we tend to think about ourselves. that is not true. black people are achieving in this country every day in the face of oppression and suppression. you know what is economic

oppression, political tactics? we are achieving every day, from slavery, black people had nothing. nothing. yet, we put our children through school. our children are graduating every day. the great thing -- the thing is, we are not doing this all by ourselves. i am not -- credits should be given to fair-minded people of all races out there that see justice as not been part of the human race and are fighting it every day. black people are achieving. real quick, what i wanted to say about the gentleman that is on right now about helping, trying to create equality and all these things. we can create government mandate, government, all kinds

of projects -- we do not get too far with these projects. what we really need is to regulate and pay, to make sure people get paid fairly for the work they do. simple example, i will use one example. there is a particular business right now. a lot of black folks are in the rideshare business, minorities, not just black full but minorities. this rideshare company, whether food delivery or what have you -- people transporter, they are ripping people off. 50%, 60% of the fair.

in some cases, i see them take 70%. host: i will let you go there, we are running short on time. let's give michael tanner a chance to respond. guest: i would also say we should look at the other side, the gig economy has provided many entries into entrepreneurship for minorities, especially immigrant group and african-americans. we do not want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. host: the bigger, broader question is -- he talked about wages. you think wage growth in this country has kept pace with the growth of the economy? guest: the evidence suggests that it has not for various reasons. that productivity and wage growth normally go hand in hand. we have seen wage growth below productivity, but not that much. i think you are trying to wage growth to a certain level, it is

only going to have more effects on the economy overall. host: one more, this is john calling from memphis. you are on. caller: good morning, thanks for taking my call. i am an 81-year-old black american. when i called for is, we have a disparity because anything in this city, you going to be -- you be charged with a felony. [indiscernible] host: john, you are breaking up there. say that again. caller: anything that we do in this city where i live, you get a felony. when you get a felony, it stops. you cannot get no money, you cannot buy no money, you can buy no houses or rent no houses. host: it is tough to hear you,

but i think we got the point. michael tanner. guest: absolutely. that is why we need judicial reform, police reform from the bottom to the top. as we know that once you obtain a criminal record, it makes it very hard for you to succeed in life. it is hard for you to get a job, go to school, get housing and so on. having that criminal record is a real problem. i know some states are trying to make it easier to expunge criminal records. if you kept things clean over the last several years and had a minor offense when you are young, those are the types of things we should be pursuing now. host: michael tanner is writing now at the foundation research on equal opportunity. find more at feropp.org.