giving you a front row seat to democracy. announcer: coming up on washington journal, your calls and comments. then jerry dunleavy and james hasson discover the new book on the 2021 u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan. susan vita, james wintle, and nicholas brown of the library of congress' music division will discuss music's role in american history. host: good morning. it is wednesday, august 30. president biden vowed to work to lower the cost of prescription drugs. yesterday, the administration unveiled the first 10 medicines selected for drug

price negotiation. the pharmaceutical industry is challenging it in court. we are asking you about the cost of your medications. can you afford your prescription drugs? if you say yes call, (202)-748-8000. if you say no, (202)-748-8001. we have a line set aside for medicare recipients. that line is (202)-748-8002. you can send us a text at (202)-748-8003. be sure to send your first name and city/state. we are on facebook.com/c-span and instagram @cspanwj. welcome to today's "washington journal." i want to share a quick programming note. at 8:30 a.m. we are going to

take you live to the library of congress where we will talk to the curators of the music division and discuss the library's collection and music's role in american history and culture from the country's founding to today. getting back to that medicare neion i am going to show u the screen the framework of thatroam. it is part of the inflation reduction act and was the nters for medicare and medicaid that selected the list of drugs. those 10 drugs accounted for $51 billion in medicare part d spending between june 2022 and may 2023, 20% of total costs. participating drug companies and negotiations will begin this year and price negotiations will

take effect in 2026. in 2028, they will address parts b and c. [video clip] pres. biden: two weeks ago we celebrated the inflation reduction act. there were many other things in that legislation. one of the most significant laws ever enacted, especially when it comes to reducing the cost of prescription drugs. we pay more for prescription drugs than any other major economy in the world. you can walk into any other country drugstore --

-- a drug company that makes a drug here in america that is sold in chicago, you can buy cheaper in toronto. unlike other parts of the health care system big pharma got a special carveout. for years advocates like many of you in this room have worked tirelessly to give medicare the power to negotiate lower prescription drug prices. just like the department of veteran affairs does now. it matters. host: that was the president from yesterday. we are asking you for the next 25 minutes this morning, can you afford your prescription drugs? the lines are yes, no, and medicare recipients. if you say yes, it is

(202)-748-8000. if you say no, it is (202)-748-8001. if you are a medicare recipient, you can call us at (202)-748-8002. let's look at some results of the kaiser family foundation poll conducted last month about this topic. most adult trust drug companies on development, providing reliable information, but few trust companies to price drugs fairly. . is at the do you think they price fairly? the blue is yes and the green is no. 39% at not much and 39% at not at all. at least eight in 10 across parties say pharmaceutical companies' products contribute to prescription drug costs. it is pretty even among

democrats, independents, and republicans with 83% total saying profits are a major factor contributing to the cost of prescription drugs. you can imagine pharma had a reaction to this. they are the trade group that represents the largest biopharmaceutical research company. they said this. "today's announcement is a russian announcement based on short political gain rather than what is best for patie many of the medicines selected for price settingdy have significant rebates and discounts due to the robust private negotiation that occurs in the part d program today. giving a single government agency the powarbitrarily set the price of medicines with little account or

oversight from patients will have consequences long a this administration is gone. the cancer mt will not succeed if this administration continues tomantle the there.tion rocket we need to get the harm will spread beyond cancer and impact people with rare diseases, mental illnesses, and other terrible diseases. david is first in ohio. you say yes. tell me about it. caller: i voted yes because i think biden is doing a good job of getting these prices lowered. he needs to do more on inflation. i know that is not the topic

today, but anyway, i'm glad i called. host: i am glad you called too. billy is next in missouri. you are a medicare recipient. caller: i am. [indiscernible] i can barely afford -- because i am on a fixed income -- and it is half of my income that goes to my rent. host: does medicare cover the cost of all of your prescription drugs? caller: most of them. some medications they do not cover, like codine.

they do not cover it and it costs me almost $30 for a 20 ounce bottle. host: all right. clarissa in big bend, wisconsin. you are also on medicare. caller: i just want to say that i am on medicare and it is great. i get my meds but only when they are in stock. i am on disability and there is a med shortage. i went to my pharmacy the other day and they said we are all out. it is on backorder. they do not cover all services, medicare. i will not get meds for the things i need it for. if i was going into surgery, they might not cover my meds. it is really hard but i think medicare could be so much better

if everything was covered from dental division. it is hard. hillary could have done something. biden could have done something. obama could have done something. any of these democrats could have done something. i am also on medicaid because i am disabled. i have to be under the thumb of being low income. i am making pennies to the dollar being on disability to keep my medicare and medicaid. it is really sucky. i know i could be better and get so much more help but some things they do not cover. when i went in for my boob job because i am transgender, they did not cover that. medicaid had a problem where they were not accepting referrals. i could not get a judgment. i got my surgery done and then i

got a surprise bill from medicare and medicaid because they do not cover those things. but the hospital had to pay and it is better now because medicaid is going to pay for things. but i think it is a bunch of hoo haa. host: elizabeth is in randall town, maryland. caller: good morning. how are you? host: i'm good. caller: i am really fortunate. biden and obama and fdr and all the presidents who started medicare were really the people who are allowing me to afford medication. i am going to the pharmacy today. my transportation is going to cost me $90 to get to my pharmacy.

that is the most expensive thing. i had to pay for a cab $90 round-trip. that is my biggest problem. i can afford my medications. i am lucky. i have a great pharmacy, cvs, and that is all i want to say. host: checking in on social media, earl on facebook says yes, but only because i have an excellent prescription plan through new jersey and medicare as a retired public employee. it is a constant worry if the plan will deny a claim one day. we should not have to be worried about such things. adequate health care and prescription plans should not be a worry for us. for profit health care one of the worst things that happened to this country. mlb says, perhaps the pharmaceutical corporations would like to reduce the

drugs by the same amount at point-of-sale. that works better for consumers. a text from gary in atlanta says joe biden is doing what he said he would do. promises made, promises kept. dave in lakeland, florida says no. argue in the path of the hurricane? caller: we were supposed to be but it went a little bit to the west. we are between tampa and orlando. it kind of spared us. but the people in big bend are not going to be spared. host: go ahead about prescription drugs. caller: ok. first, joe biden has not done anything. he has not lowered the price of anything. they say these prices will not

go into effect for years. i take two insulins. i pay $35 for that. it was negotiated under donald trump, not joe biden. i take a 90 day supply which costs $452. mr. joe biden, quit talking and do something. host: dave mentioned one of the drugs which is on the list. this is a chart in "the washington times" that shows the 10 drugs and the number of users -- eliquis, which is the one he

mentioned -- this is the average cost to medicare per year, per user. some of these towards the bottom go up quite a bit on the cost. but these are sorted by the number of users and how popular they are. these were chosen based on how popular they are and the cost. mark is in tulsa, oklahoma. go ahead. caller: hello. how you doing today? hello, americans. i am type 1 diabetic. i got diabetes when i was nine-years-old. i am on insulin. i has been on insulin the last seven years. every time i get the bill from some medical industry i get this bill.

because of corporations i have insurance so it costs me $5,000 to pay for my insulin needs. host: $5,000 per what? caller: per year. it is like a deductible. but the problem -- this is the manipulation i want people to try to understand -- i get these bills. for example, they make these pumps for $20 and sell them for $13,500. those things probably cost $10 and they charge me $3000. they charge you $3000 and it is

like, oh, well, the government is going to pay $1500. we are going to knock $1200 off and you have to pay $300. it makes it look like, wow, my company benefits are great because i saved $100,000 this year. thank you, central power and government. just like the supreme court got rid of abortions on a national level, we need you do the same for medicine. we need to make it a state-by-state, city by city level. everyone does their own thing. have real competition instead of central power, one mafia, running this. intellectual property is the way for rich people to maintain power -- host: what about innovation? if you do not protect intellectual property, companies do not have incentive to

innovate. caller: let me talk about innovation. true innovation comes with competition. do you agree with that? host: go ahead. caller: would you agree that true innovation comes through competition? you get fat and lazy if you have no competition. if you have competition, he starts driving for something new. here in the central power of government that we have there ain't no competition. so i have the same pump and they have not put any new money into it the last 10 years. host: jerry in elizabeth city, north carolina. you say no. caller: for years i did not have to do anything. i got an injury falling off the ship when i was in the service. i was in the service 28 years.

i have to buy medicine for my back. host: are you not getting benefits from the v.a.? caller: for years, i did not really worry about it. [voice cracking] i am just getting fed up with the way i am getting benefits. there are a lot of us out here. thank you. host: ruth in virginia, good

morning. caller: obama signed an executive order aimed at preventing shortages of prescription drugs. just a reminder. host: erica in las vegas, you are a medicare recipient. good morning. caller: good morning. i would also like to address jerry. i have been waiting for my pain medication because my back was shattered. i have been waiting since the 3rd of this month and have still not gotten it filled because everybody is on backorder.

there is no pharmacy that has medicine for us to be able to take our medication. we are in pain due to the cost of being vets and fighting for our nation and we are not getting service. host: russ is also a medicare recipient. he says, "i can afford drugs under medicare but some are outrageous. depending on your medical conditions, drugs are priced in tier levels. level one is least expensive but can be raised by bumping to level two literally overnight. pharmacies will always gouge because they can." a post on x says, wish i could afford the lifestyle to help me not need the drugs in the first place. that is impossible right now. brad posted on facebook, "i can barely afford food and gas much

less drugs." let's talk to peggy in elkhart lake, wisconsin. caller: good morning. i take eliquis and it is very expensive. i have prescription coverage but in spite of that i have still got to pay quite a hefty price. i was in the hospital and if i did not take eliquis, i do not know how long my life would last. some of these drugs are lifesaving and they are very important. i respect jill biden for what he is trying to do -- joe biden for what he is trying to do for us. i hope they can help other people who are in trouble like i am. host: can you tell me about how much you paper month? caller: i pay $100 a month even though i have prescription drug coverage. i still have to pay over $100 a

month. and being retired, that is hard on the budget. host: that is peggy in wisconsin. take a look at what the aarp released as part of their statement. thfrom their executive vice president. says, "we cannot overstate how monumental this law is for older americans, financial stability, arall health. for too lo drug companies have fleeced our c and padded their profits by setting outrageous profits, all at the expense of american lives." candace is next in tennessee. good morning. caller: good morning. yes, we found out with the covid-19 shots there were no key cures only more bills. i do not use any of the products

from the pharmaceutical companies and i have never been healthier. what they are doing is biological weaponry. human trafficking our immune systems to corporations. i have been illegally human trafficked in tennessee. this has gone on for a very long time. host: what do you mean you have been trafficked? caller: i am under illegal surveillance that my local county sheriff's department has investigated. they told me it is big government doing it. it is part of a social engineering social experiment to make medical debt slaves. host: let's go to danielle in hanover, new hampshire. good morning. caller: good morning. i can afford my prescription medication but only because i work at a hospital and i have

very good health insurance. well, there is argument among how good the health insurance is. i have a $5,000 deductible every year. i meet that deductible in the beginning of the year but then i am paying it for the rest of the year. i constantly have a bill with the hospital because of my high deductible and i work there. if i were to lose my job or go to part-time because of my health condition, i would lose my insurance and then i would not be able to get any of my medication. it is very frustrating that we are tied to this insurance system when we could do single-payer and pay with everything through taxes. and be able to take care of

everybody if we pay with other developed countries pay. it is really frustrating. host: just as a reminder, what the 10 drugs are that are covered under this negotiation -- i will not read them -- but they are primarily for preventing strokes, blood clots, diabetes, heart failure, chronic kidney disease, arthritis, other autoimmu contions, blood cancers, crohn's disease, and insulin products. caller: those are all very important drugs that i have severe depression that prohibits me from living a normal life. my prescriptions are also lifesaving in a different way and i do not think it is fair to

the general population to only negotiate some drugs. i think we need to negotiate all drugs because america pays more than pretty much any other developed nation. host: have you ever thought of -- some people try to get their drugs from canada and other countries. what are your thoughts on that? caller: i think it works for some people but it is not a real solution. it is not a long-term solution. host: let's talk to amanda in ozark. you say no. caller: yes. i was diagnosed with a genetic disease and i should be on a medication that is $30,000 and i cannot afford it. the medical system is so messed up that i cannot afford to go to a doctor three hours away for this condition. host: you said it is $30,000 a

year for the medication? caller: no, if i were to go to the pharmacy, they would charge me $30,000 for that medication. because it is a genetic disease. there is no reason that medications in this country that has so much wealth should cost $30,000. people should not have to pay to live. the government should take care of us. they should stop putting this money in their pocket from all these pharmaceutical companies and that is the only reason medication is so expensive. these people are making money off of it. it does not cost this much money to make these medicines. if this society cared about everyone a little bit more and we thought about taking care of each other instead of a few

people making a ton of money, this country would be so much better off. and it is so frustrating. i do not see the point of health care in this country. you cannot afford your medication and you cannot get into see the doctors. it is ridiculous. there is no point to it. host: all right, amanda. let's talk to earl who is a medicare recipient in new york. good morning. caller: morning. one, i am a veteran and senior citizen. my thought is that why can't medicaid/medicare have the same ability as the v.a.? i don't know if you've seen the ads for the good rx.

the pharmacist will click away on the cash register and the price will be $75 down to more than half with the good rx. but why can't medicaid and medicare have the same ability to negotiate prices like the v.a.? thank you for your time. host: troy is in indianapolis. you say no. caller: correct. i cannot afford my medication. i kind of have to go through different providers. i even have to take out loans to pay old medical bills. my employer does not do a good job contributing to my health care. it is quite expensive. a good chunk of my paycheck goes

to the insurance i have and my current medication, i have to figure out different ways -- host: that is all the time we have for this segment. thanks to everybody who called in. at 8:30 a.m. this morning, we will look at the history of american music. we will take you live to the library of congress where the music vision will share its rare items and the stories behind them. coming up, jerry dunleavy and james hasson will discuss the new book on the 2021 u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan. the book is called "kabul". we will be right back. ♪

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♪ announcer: this fall watch c-span's new series. joined as as we embark on a captivating journey in partnership with the library of congress which first created a book that shaved american lives to explore key works of literature. it has won awards, led to significant changes, and still talked about today. hear from experts that will shed light on the impact of these works and journey through locations across the country tied to these celebrated authors. among our featured books is "common sense" by thomas pain, "huckleberry finn" by mark twain, and "free to choose" by milton and rose freeman. books that shaped america

starting september 18 at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span now, or online at c-span.org. ♪ announcer: "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back to "washington journal". i am joined by jerry dunleavy and james hasson. they are co-authors of the book called "kabul: the untold story of biden's fiasco and the american heroes that fought to the end." thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> thank you for having us. host: jerry, what is your expertise? ms. dunleavy: i was an investigative reporter for a decade.

i went on to co-author this excellent book with my friend james. i recently was hired by the house foreign affairs committee to help with the leading there afghanistan withdrawal investigation. just yesterday we had an incredible roundtable with the goldstar families of the 13 servicemembers killed august 26, 2021. the only caveat i will give as i am just here as the co-author. i am not talking on behalf of the committee. host: we covered that on c-span, that hearing, and if anybody is interested you can look at that on c-span.org or our app. james, you are a former u.s. army captain and served in afghanistan. tell us what you did and where you served. mr. hasson: i served in coast province. two provinces on the border from

2014 to 2015. i have a lot of family members still serving actively and several, including, in the special forces community -- including close friends, in the special forces community. host: you are not there during the withdrawal. mr. hasson: i was already out. host: how long did you stay in afghanistan? mr. hasson: nine months. host: let's talk about the book called "kabul". do you chronicle the entire war or is this just about the withdrawal? mr. dunleavy: i wish we could have done a book that went through the 20 years of war. it would have had to be 10,000 pages long but there were 20

years of war, 20 years of death, 20 years of mistakes. but this book focuses on the withdrawal from afghanistan because, at the end of the day, the way this ended with tens of thousands of afghan allies left behind, well over 1000 americans left behind, us cutting the legs out from under the afghan military when we did our rapid retrograde, the abandonment of bagram, and then this isis k terrorist attack that killed close to 200 afghans. and then the taliban taking over again after 20 years of work. it did not have to end this way. host: president trump kind of defense the afghanistan withdrawal -- defends the afghanistan withdrawal saying

the agreement with the taliban was all to blame for how the withdrawal played out. what are your thoughts? mr. dunleavy: the biden administration does not have a defense. it is really indefensible the way this all ended. what they point to is the delhi agreement struck between the u.s. -- doha agreement struck between the u.s. and the taliban. we think it was a flawed agreement to say the least. however, there were conditions and the taliban did not meet any of them. one of them was the continued alliance the taliban has with al qaeda. they were allied with them before 9/11, they continued their alliance for 20 years, and it continues today, despite president biden's claims during the withdrawal that al qaeda was gone from afghanistan. this was not true. the alliance was never broken.

because the taliban was not following the terms of the delhi doha agreement, this was a choice that president biden made to pick the 20's anniversary of 9/11 to withdraw in the middle of afghan fighting season. these are choices president biden made. he was not painted into a corner. host: james, do you guys agree the united states should have pulled out and your beef is how it pulled out? or you think troops should have remained in afghanistan? mr. hasson: great question because i think it is a difficult one. as jerry mentioned, a lot of the things we were doing in terms of nationbuilding, trying to create democracy, we are just not

working. there is a great case to be made that if we kept a couple thousand troops there, we could've prevented what happened. but as we outlined in the prologue of "kabul" is that it does not matter what side of the debate you come down on. personally having served there and see everything up close i leaned closer to let's get out. that said, no matter what side of the debate you come down on things did not have to happen the way they did. the withdrawal and the americans left behind, the americans killed, wounded, all of that can be laid -- as we lay out in "kabul" -- can be laid squarely

at the feet of the biden administration. host: if you would like to call in and ask a question, you can do so. our lines are by party affiliation. republicans (202)-748-8001, democrats (202)-748-8000, independents (202)-748-8002. we also have a line if you are an afghanistan war veteran. you can call on our line (202)-748-8003. that is also the line used to send us a text. let's hear from president biden and then i will get your reaction. this is from august 31, 2021. he announces that withdrawal from afghanistan. [video clip] pres. biden: i take responsibility for the decision. some say we should have started sooner and could this have been done in a more orderly manner?

i respectfully disagree. imagine if we had begun evacuations in june or july, bringing thousands of american troops and evacuating more than 120,000 in the middle of a civil war. there still would have been a rush to the airport. a breakdown of confidence and control of the government. and it still would have been difficult and dangerous. the bottom line is there is no evacuation from the end of the war that you can run without the complexities, challenges, and threats we faced. none. there are those who say we should have stayed indefinitely. they ask, why don't we just keep doing what we were doing? why do we have to change anything? the fact is everything had

changed. my predecessor had made a deal with the taliban. when i came into office we faced a deadline, may 1. the taliban onslaught was coming. we faced one of two choices -- follow the agreement of the previous administration and extend -- or extend and have more time for people to get out. or send in thousands of more troops and escalate the war. to those asking for a third decade of war in afghanistan i ask, what is the vital national interest? in my view, we only have one -- to make sure afghanistan can never be used again to launch an attack on our homeland. remember why we went to afghanistan in the first place. because we were attacked by

osama bin laden and al qaeda on september 11, 2001. they were based in afghanistan. we delivered justice to bin laden on may 2, 2011, over a decade ago. al qaeda was decimated. host: that was the president from two years ago. jerry, your reaction. mr. dunleavy: president biden's whole argument is that everything that happened in 2021 was inevitable. that the chaos and death we saw was inevitable and there was nothing he could have done to change it. as we lay out in "kabul", that is simply not true. i will give you one example. all of president biden's advisors and military commanders were telling him about the importance of holding onto bagram air brace. -- bagram airbase.

because of his decisions bagram was closed. everybody told president biden that bagram is a safer place to do an evacuation from than a small airport in the middle of kabul. if we had maintained bagram, it would have meant a safer evacuation, a more orderly one. we would have had far fewer americans left behind, far fewer afghan allies left behind. we could have kept the taliban onslaught at bay to likely stop them from taking kabul, which would have made everything safer, and the isis k terrorist who killed those 13 americans august 26, the biden

administration has not admitted his identity. i think potentially because he was in prison at bagram when we abandoned bagram. and he was one of them. when the taliban took over they took over august 15. the first thing they did was open those doors and freed the thousands of terrorists, including the one that killed those americans. host: but does it work to hang on to bagram in the middle of the taliban takeover? how many troops would you have needed? mr. dunleavy: great question and absolutely it would have worked. you need at least a few thousand troops.

ideally 3500 but at minimum 2200. host: even when the whole country was being taken over by the taliban? mr. dunleavy: if we rewind, when we decided to abandon bagram the whole country had not been taken over yet. bagram is defensible. it was built by the soviets when they were in afghanistan in the 1980's and has dozens of runways. it is close to kabul. the reason why that is an easy evacuation is number one, we would have more assets in the air to be able to prevent the taliban thunder run, if you want to call it that, to kabul. we would have been able to evacuate more people quickly instead of using a single strip

airfield in the middle of a dense urban environment with high ground on all sides. just add one thing quickly, every military commander who talked to president biden -- and we know this for a fact -- pleaded with him to keep bagram open. he did not because he wanted a certain trip cap number, 600, which meant there were four diplomats to every soldier at that point. you cannot keep bog room open with only 600 soldiers. that is the long and short of it. host: there is a lot of viewers that want to talk to you. we will start with carl in hannibal, new york. democrat. caller: i don't know where to begin. number one, should've, could've, would've. trillions of dollars wasted in

afghanistan and you know what? you are monday morning quarterbacking. you know what should have been done. president biden did the wrong thing. president biden made the hard choice and he left afghanistan. maybe he did not do it the way you wanted it done but it had to be done and he pulled the trigger. that is number one. my second point is this. you started off this program without president biden is trying to reduce drug prices to help everyday americans. and then you have to counterbalance it with this tripe? you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. you really need to do better. host: let's have a response. monday morning quarterbacking. mr. dunleavy: this is not monday morning quarterbacking. everything that happened here president biden was warned in real time by people on the ground and his military commanders. the house foreign affairs committee had testimony from

command sergeant major jake smith last month. he was the command sergeant major who, at the time in 2021, was overseeing the u.s. closure of military bases across afghanistan. he was tasked with closing bagram. he testified in early 2021 the state department officials from the embassy in kabul came to visit him at bagram to do a site survey about where to do an evacuation. he told them in no uncertain terms you cannot do this evacuation through kabul airport. you have got to hold bagram. it is safer. it is more orderly. it is extremely defensible and of course, as i mentioned earlier, the prisoners at bagram still would have been behind bars rather than trying to kill americans. president biden knew this and

was being warned about this and he moved forward with it anyway. that goes for pretty much every decision he made. he was told that a rapid troop withdrawal from afghanistan in the middle of afghan fighting season, a choice that he made, that that would be a disastrous idea and likely bring about the rapid collapse of the afghan military and afghan government. these are things he knew in real time. this is not james and i monday morning quarterbacking. this is us pointing out that the facts were known in president biden ignored them. mr. hasson: if i could add to that quickly. one thing that we took pains to do in kabul was stick directly to the facts and let the men and women who were there at the gates, on the ground, or in the decision rooms speak for themselves. if you read the book, you are

not going to see any opinion ating from us about what went down. to be frank, we also criticized secretary pompeo and the trump administration for the doha agreement. our goal is to tell the story without fanfare or favor. if this had been a different administration and the same things that happened, we would have told the same story. host: paul is in arizona, democrat line. caller: morning. i like the guy before that called in. i hear a lot of ifs and buts. by january 15th, 2021, troop levels were down to 500 troops in country. how do you expect to hold bagram air force base with 2500 troops? and possible.

that is why they deserted. trump drew down the troops, not biden. he was left when he entered with 2500 troops in country and you expect him to hold bagram? host: james? mr. hasson: i appreciate the thought and the question. one thing i will say in response is that, as i mentioned a few minutes ago, 2200 was the minimum that the pentago told d the biden white house they needed to hold bagram. it is not an ideal number but it is a manageable number. 2200 is not 600. at the end of the day, you know, absolutely. if president trump had withdrawn

down to 600 -- i did not agree withdrawing as quickly as they did. but there were 2500 there at the time. that was enough to hold bagram and every military commander urged president biden to hold onto bagram. he had the ability to do so but he did not because he wanted an artificial troop cap at 600. that is what they had and the result speak for themselves. host: ed is an afghanistan vet in florida. aren't you under evacuation orders? caller: not yet. [laughs] host: stay safe. caller: thank you. host: go ahead. caller: i support what your two are saying.

i traveled up to bagram on a regular basis and saying that bagram was the safest place in afghanistan at the time we were there. [indiscernible] answering the question about 2500, evidently, he does not understand military tactics and we have air superiority. i would support with the men said. bagram is probably the most secure area. the sergeant major hit it on the head. thank you. host: jerry, your response? mr. dunleavy: i hope you stay safe in florida. thanks for what you did over there. really appreciate that. i think your insights are spot on.

bagram would have been the right place to do an evacuation from. everybody told that to president biden. he knew that and he chose differently. the closure of bagram meant the united states' presence in afghanistan was shrunk down to an embassy and airport in kabul. we saw with the impact of that was. the rapid u.s. troop withdrawal without any plan to continue to support the afghan military, which we had built around u.s. support. the u.s. troop withdrawal meant pulling contractors, troops, logistics, advisors. everything was gone in rapid fashion. the closure of bagram meant that the u.s.'s ability to project power was gone. our ability to do a safe evacuation was gone.

to protect those prisons full of terrorists that we had spent years capturing and throwing in jail, that ability was gone too. host: joyce is an independent in louisville, kentucky. caller: good morning. first time caller. will be 78-years-old on sunday. you people are crazy. this is just a slap something on biden. did you see the color of the people that got killed that day? none of those people were black. black people are not going to put up with this mess you are talking about doing in the army. all of you so-called caucasians want to do is to go around the world and control the world. host: i want to show a clip from secretary lloyd austin in front of the senate armed services committee september 2021 where

he talks about the end of the u.s. war in afghanistan. [video clip] sec >> extending beyond august would have imperiled our people and our mission. the taliban made clear their cooperation with end on the first of september. as you know we face great and growing threats from isis. staying longer than we did would've made it more dangerous for our people. it would not have significantly changed a number of evacuees we could get out. as we consider these tactical issues today, we must also ask ourselves equally tough questions about war itself. think about the lessons we have learned the past 20 years. did we have the right strategy? did we have too many strategies? did we put too much faith in our ability to build effective

afghan institutions, and army, air force, police force, and government administration? we help build the state but we cannot forge a nation. the fact that the afghan army that we and our partners trained melted away, as communicators without firing a shot, took us all by surprise and it would be dishonest the claim otherwise. we need to consider some uncomfortable truths. that we do not fully comprehend the corruption and poor leadership in senior ranks. we did not grasp the effects of frequent and unexplained rotations by president of his commanders. we do not anticipate the effect caused by the deals that the taliban commanders struck with local leaders. andy doha agreement is self had a demoralizing effect on afghan soldiers. finally, we felt to grasp there

is only so much for which and for whom many of the afghan forces -- provided the afghan military with the equipment and aircraft and skills to use it. over the years they often fought bravely. tens of thousands of afghan soldiers and police died but in the end we cannot provide them with the will to win, at least not all of them. as a veteran of that war, and personally reckoning with all of it. host: that was defense secretary austin about two years ago in front of the senate. james, a lot of their to unpack. your initial thoughts. guest: the first thing i will note is that secretary austin talks about we could not stay past the 31st and because the taliban were going to be attacking us. that is a whole other issue to talk about but one thing i want to point out is that as of

august 24, one week prior, admiral who was in charge of the forces in afghanistan, who was in charge of all of our operations in afghanistan, determined that we would impossible to evacuate and rescue every american citizen by the 31st. and that determination was relayed to the white house and yet at the same time the white house continued to tell the american people that we could get every american out by the 31st. jake sullivan said that on the 24th. jim psaki lectured reporters telling them that it was responsible to suggest americans would be stranded when as we point out, with the documents to

show for it, they knew this was not a visible think. that is the first think i would like to bring up. secretary austin has great points about the 20 years of failure but in one think i did not hear was -- the one think i did not hear was the buck stops here if you are secretary of defense, and you are in charge of an evacuation to rescue american citizens, it is never been done before. host: to be fair at did call it a strategic failure it is never been done -- the general did call it a strategic failure. he also said that everybody was surprised at how the afghan army just melted away. this was after years of training

and a lot of money from the united states. getting them into the point of becoming a professional army and they just disappeared. guest: i can tell you from a first-hand experience that what what is on paper does not always reflect reality or did not always reflect reality in terms of afghan military, but more to the point, and again, it is something we bring up in " kabul," this is a known fact. the idea that we were surprised afghan army was not as strong as it appeared on paper. it is just simply not true. there are things called ghost units where you have entire battalions on paper of afghan military units units that did nt

exist in reality because the colonel who not only in charge will pocket the salaries and again, their reports detailing this in the years up to the evacuation. the idea that we do not know they are going to fall is just -- it defies reality and general scotty miller in charge of the kenaston until he resigned in the summer of 2031 was tracking every district that fell and trying to sound the alarm to the white house. host: go ahead, jerry. guest: i would add is invited main a promise in 2021, august to get all americans out of afghanistan. it is a promise the biden demonstration continued to make even after they knew that it is a promise they were not going to be able to fulfill. on afghan military front, we knew about the problems the afghan military had.

to be clear, some afghan soldiers and units did fight the taliban, sometimes ferociously in 2021. there were a lot of afghan soldiers who died in 2021. it is also true a lot of afghan units simply collapse. i would point out that the biden administration with this rapid withdrawal kick the legs out from under an already weak and shaky the terry and we had no plan about how to continue to support them -- military and we had no plan about how to continue to support them. throughout 2020 one, biden and people around him continue to assess the afghan military was 200,000 people strong and it is what we can count on them to fight the taliban. they knew that 300,000 figure they repeated over and over again was made up. the ghost soldiers problems, the

fact they were combining the afghan military numbers with afghan police numbers and conflating them into 300,000 figure and the fact that the afghan military was starting to collapse throughout 2021 yet they continue to assess on fictional 300,000 figure. it is one of the many sort of falsehood is the biden administration was pushing to get peoples -- get in people's head things are ok about reality on the ground is that the taliban was taking over and we did not have a plan about how to get our afghan allies out, are america's out. host: sal in massachusetts. democrats line. caller: good morning. being an expiring, i am ashamed of you two sitting here spouting this nonsense -- being an x marine, i am ashamed of you to

sitting at your this nonsense. you would note no one has ever been able to get in there and stay in their including alexander the great. he was there and had to get out. he had to marry in princess daughter to make peace. you two are bogus. host: i have a question for you. you are talking about the war in afghanistan and how it was conducted. what are your thoughts on the withdrawal from afghanistan? caller: we had to withdraw. there was no other choice. host: no, how it was conducted. caller: there no good way to get out. look at vietnam. when we got out of vietnam there is no way to get out -- good way to get out. host: was there a good way to get out? guest: i like he brought up vietnam and it gets to president biden's head, something we wrote

about in the book is at the end of the vietnam war with north vietnamese were margie torres -- marching towards saigon, president by that was a young senator trying to make his mark on the vietnam war. trying to keep south vietnamese refugees out. trying to stop the united states from trying to rescue our south vietnamese allies from the country as the north vietnamese marched south. one quote from him was something to the effect of we do not have a moral obligation to one or 100,000 south of it -- south vietnamese and i think that mentality, the disregard for our allies we fight with on the ground, i think it carried over to the way this war ended. i am not arguing here there is a good way to leave afghanistan but there are certainly less bad ways to do it and pretty much

every decision that president biden made in 2020 what made it worse than it had to be. one of those was art lack of a plan about how to get americans and afghan allies out if we are going to withdraw. guest: of all people am very sympathetic to the idea that afghanistan is in a lot of ways ungovernable and there is the poem about when the british were in there. and what they had to do with. i do see your point. i get it. i will point the purpose of the book was not to argue whether it should or should not have gotten out. it was to detail in a very factual basis everything that

went wrong and how this could have been different. because like it or not, there is no parallel, in modern american history, for thousands of americans to be abandoned to a foreign terrorist organization. host: do we know how many american citizens are in afghanistan trying to get out now? guest: what i can tell you is that at the end of the withdrawal, the biden administration was trying to say that were just a few americans left behind, maybe a hundred or 200. secretary blinken just this month came out and admitted since the end of the u.s. presence in afghanistan, between 2021 and now close to 1000 americans had to be evacuated from afghanistan. it shows the number they were pushing, which by the way even if just a few americans are even

just 100 americans were left behind, that would've been a dereliction of duty. host: how are they be evacuated now? guest: again, i will be careful about this to protect the individuals going about it. i can tell you primarily they are being evacuated by veteran groups and by private citizens who are still keeping that promise. we tell some of those stories in "kabul." there are still americans that are actually held hostage by the taliban today. one it is not an american but an african ally and one-story i can share is that the interpreter who rescued president biden or

help rescue president biden when his aircraft was forced down in afghanistan in 2007 was one of the afghans who was stranded. host: when he was a -- guest: senator, at the time. he was on a congressional delegation at the time chuck hagel and i believe senator kerry. this afghan interpreter who helped rescue him was one of the ones who was left behind. he wrote a piece in the wall street journal on i believe the 30th when we left saying please do not abandon me. divided made a big deal about we going to keep our -- the biden demonstration made a big deal about keeping our promise and getting him out. if you must later he was out of the country and biden administration took a lot of credit -- a few months later the

biden administration took a lot of credit. we spoke with the people who got him and his family out. that was a private veterans group. the biden administration had no idea he was out of the country until he was at a seth -- safe house in pakistan. host: jan in illinois. independent. caller: good morning. i want to reiterate what someone said before. i held back to the 60's in the vietnam war and i visually watch that evacuation. there were a lot of things that went wrong there. i appreciate the book has come out. i think it is a lesson learned book. i do not think we need to say who's fault it was because back in the 1960's, i think that was under president nixon.

i do not know -- i think i would like to see in the future is a comparative history of a withdrawal from vietnam versus the withdrawal from afghanistan. i'm not so worried about the withdrawal. i think it is been proven by russia and history of that country in general that that country wants to be what it is. if it wants to be a strict, muslim country, i do feel for all the women in afghanistan that are being put under so many pressures as far as no schooling and all of that, but i think i would like to see in five years as some want write historical, factual, comparative of withdrawal from vietnam versus the withdrawal from afghanistan. i think there are a lot of similarities. host: jerry, you talked about that. i want to ask you about from a political article about that

hearing in front of the senate. where secretary austin told senators while the pentagon plan to evacuate between 70000 and 80,000 people from the airport, american forces were ultimately successful in transporting more than 124,000 people out of afghanistan. he said u.s. military also evacuated more than 7000 people per day after initially planning to move between 5000 and 9000 people per day. he said at the height of the operation, and aircraft carrying evacuees was taking off every 45 minutes. he said it was the largest airlift conducted in u.s. history and it was executed in 17 days. was a perfect? of course not. what do you think of that? should the administration get any credit for the scale of this evacuation? guest: the numbers are

impressive, of course. credit i think goes to the marines and other u.s. troops and service members who were on the ground at kabul airport, performing heroically in an impossible situation that they have been put in. we were relying on the taliban to provide security outside that airport. massive crowds, massive danger. the taliban sometimes turning americans away. sometimes beating americans. the taliban and beating our afghan allies, turning them away, sometimes killing them in front of the marines who could see this happening. what the troops on the ground performed heroically and we got a lot of people out. when you dive into the numbers, the question is, who did we get out and who did we leave behind? reality is we had made a lot of promises to the afghan allies that have served alongside us and we made promises to these

american citizens in afghanistan that we would get them out and we did not. there were tens of thousands of afghan allies left behind. there are likely over a 1000 americans left behind. the numbers are impressive. credit goes to these brave u.s. service members who help make it happen. but at the end of the day, we did not fulfill the promises we made, the promises the biden administration continues to make even in august 2021 when they knew there want to break those promises. guest: one of the reasons for that extraordinary number of people that got out, i do think is praiseworthy, and asked jerry said, air force crews, the guys at the holding area assessing people, they did an incredible job. but there is this clear disparity between the number of people we got out and number of

people we promise to get out who did not. one of the reasons for that was that on august 18, president biden was frustrated with the slow pace of evacuations. he told the military to change the criteria from afghan allies and american citizens to any afghan they could be possibly considered -- what happened was we had tens of thousands of people admitted to the airfield over the next 12 hours. they are all trying to get on planes. there were riots on the field and they had to shut down evacuations for 36 hours while they tried to maintain that. they restarted evacuations late in the 21st. at that point, we still had not died any of the very few americans -- still had not gotten any of the very few

americans we have promised to get out on the airfield. military leaders said that decision set the stage for what happened on the 26 because we still had to so few numbers getting out that the white house was pressuring the military to keep the gate open even though there was a threat. host: in brunswick, new jersey. independent. good morning. caller: good morning. i heard quite a few points which bided demonstration did not highlight. i did not hear any comment from the authors -- agreement was signed sometime february 2020, the doha agreement, evacuation process was not planned, if it was not it was signed. on top of it, if biden administration was handcuffed with the agreement, why just the

blame on the administration who have come in? there should be full blame shared and plant for demonstration who signed it -- shared on the demonstration who signed it. where were they when all this planet was going on? why the blame not being highlight it earlier someone mentioned about vietnam evacuation. why is there no comparison on that? guest: the comments about the doha agreement, handcuffing president biden, i understand where you're coming from with that, but i think we show in the book that is not the case. we have an entire chapter on the

doha agreement and we make it clear we thought it was a flawed agreement. there were conditions in there. the taliban was not following through on anything it had a promise to do. the united states was under no obligation to withdrawal by a certain point when the taliban was violating every single piece of the doha agreement. i will point out that president biden he chose when he was going to set the withdrawal date. he picked the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. this was a choice he made come september 11, 2021 and it was not a strategic decision. there is no strategy for picking the 20th anniversary of the horrible terrorist attack read but it was a particle one. i think he wanted some sort of political victory. the reality was he chose the middle of afghan fighting season

for that withdrawal. he announced it in april and announced the conclusion of the withdrawal september and in that time period is when fighting it ramps up in afghanistan. right as the fighting is ramping up and taliban is on the march is when we were pulling our troops out and our support for the afghan military. because of that decision he made, which is not obligated to do, but made anyway, it meant by the 20th anniversary of 9/11, the taliban who had harbored al qaeda before 9/11 and continue to harbor them for 20 years, emmett the taliban it was back in charge of afghanistan again -- it meant the taliban it was back in charge of afghanistan again. host: frank, republican. good morning. caller: good morning. i spent 22 years in the army. i spent four years in combat arms . i was in kuwait and i was in jordan at that time.

at an airbase. i'll look up on the wall and saw a big map that said united airport road --arab world. now i am seeing -- getting involved in iraq. that is interesting. they have commandos in iraq right now. trying to do what we try to do. the point is, we have never been -- we have police action, low intensity conflict. we tried to buy the piece. it had not worked. nationbuilding has not worked. world war ii we do not have any problems firebombing every major city in germany, killing thousands of innocent women and children. war is nasty. it is 30. -- it is dirty.

this is a difficult situation. things are happening and if you look at the history of the immigrant party, the democrats, democrat has always been in office when we've been in a large-scale conflict. host: reaction, james. guest: i think what i would say in response to that is that the underlying theme that nationbuilding is not an effective foreign policy strategy is 100% correct. i do not think jerry or i would ever argue to the contrary. again i can tell you that firsthand. it leads me to something i want to emphasize which is that what we outline as jerry said at the

beginning of the program is that if we want to outline all of the mistakes over 20 years made in afghanistan it would take us several thousand pages. we focus on this specific chapter because it was in that history. it is discrete. because this is how it ended. those were the decisions that were made and the consequences that happen. the one thing i would say is again, to reemphasize, whether you want to st oray whether you want to stay or get out, the point is there's never been a situation like this in american history and we lay out in clear details it did not have to happen. host: albert in chicago,

democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. i have two questions. no one has asked these questions and i would like your guest to answer both of them. trump signed the doha agreement with the terrorist organization on february 29, 2020. then from that day until he left office 11 months later to have everyone out of afghanistan who needed to be evacuated. it should never have been on bidens plate. my question, what was trump doing with the 11 months he had as to why he evacuated no one from afghanistan? my second question, in june 2020 after everybody saying trump changed his mind because the taliban was violating the agreement, in june 2020, he held a televised rally with c-span coverage where he

said the only thing that was keeping the afghan government from collapsing was the presence of our troops. he took credit for the withdrawal as late as june 2020. who did trump intend to take over afghanistan was he pulled our troops out in the afghan government collapse? in june he was still taking credit for it. who did he intend to take over for afghanistan seeing she knew the government would collapse -- as he knew the government would collapse? guest: president trump made it clear in 2020 he wanted to withdrawal u.s. troops. near the end of his presidency he even made significant moves to maybe withdrawal all u.s. troops from the country but it is ultimately a decision he did not go through with. he ended up leaving the residual presence that was fluctuated

between about 2500 and 35 hundred troops in the country. at the end of the day, i think president trump was considering making the same mistake president biden actually made, which was a rapid, total withdrawal of u.s. troops that did not include a plan to keep the afghan military fighting, get american and afghan allies out. but president trump did not do that. president biden came in. there was a troop presence about 2500 and it was president biden who made the decision to pull the plug and rapidly pull all of our troops out without putting in place a plan about evacuated americans, as evacuated afghan allies, how to keep the african military fighting. it was president biden who close program airbase and left the u.s. that with our presence at

an embassy in a small airport. we point out many mistakes that were made over many years, but how the withdrawal happened these are president biden's decisions. guest: i do agree that a lot more should have been done in 2020. there is no way -- i would say that in terms of getting people out, the biden administration continued to tell the american people, including american people in afghanistan, that the government was not going to collapse. and it will happen because of that, even though military leaders told them otherwise about what happened because of that is when it collapse overnight there were thousands of americans who were all of a sudden stuck on the others the

taliban, away from safety. host: that is james hasson, afghan war veteran, also jerry dunleavy house of foreign affairs committee staff and investigator. co-authors of the book "kabul." gentlemen, thank you so much for being on the program. when we come back weeks for the history of american music. we take you live to the library of congress in washington where the library's music division will share some of its rare items and of its rare items and the stories behind them. first here is george gershwin's rhapsody and blue celebrates 100 the birthday next year. here is a 1924 recording of that song made in new york city. ♪

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>> for the next 90 minutes on the "washington journal" we dive into the history of american music. joining us in the library of congress is auditorium, susan v to chief of the library's music division. james wintle the head of their reader services. what were we just listening to? mr. wintle: we were listening to george gershwin's rhapsody and blue. a piece written in 1924 for the orchestra. it is kind of an interesting story behind it because the

commission was discuss amongst the people involved but there was no specific dates set for the premier. after they had talked about that for a little while, one year later george gershwin was reading the newspaper and noticed a advertisement in the newspaper saying his new piano -- will be premiered by the paula whiteman orchestra in a month so that led him to start hitting the pen to paper and realize this was a thing that had to be done. the piece was written in about one month. he really wanted to take advantage of the sound of the

orchestra and use their staff orchestrator who later went on to write very important pieces like the grand canyon come about that time he was on staff at the orchestra. he orchestrated the whole thing for george gershwin. he said i did not have time to do all of this so there were straighter lived at his apartment for a while. go there and copy ask george gershon was writing the piece in the room. it was quite the quick operation and was the result was one of the real great pieces of american music. an important piece also because at that point, in 1924, american composers were trying to find a way to make their music distinctly american. incorporating jazz and jazz

influences into the music was one of the music was well underway stated that. there were a number of pieces written around the same time that inc. jazz in a concert setting. that was one of the reasons that the date for this piece was pushed all. because there were a number of different pieces that were going to be premiered. he pushed up the premier. that was the musical context. drinking jazz into the concert hall and that is something rhapsody and blue did well. host: hoover george and -- who were george and ire gershin? mr. wintle: that had great success on broadway writing a

number of important shows they had also scored movies that sort of thing. they were very successful. george had aspirations to work in standard classical music. he had the success of right-of-way -- broadway. he went to europe to study and famously visited the great composer. he wanted to take orchestration lessons. whether it is actually true, the possible story is that reville said with the money you make from your shows, you should not need composition lessons. gershwin was adjusted in french composers -- interested in the french composers and bringing it together but his broadway

background. what we hear in rhapsody blue. host: what is the library of congress's music division and how long has it been around? ms. vita: before i answer i would like to mention something that brings an element of why we have rhapsody in blue and why it is important. we have the original score in the music division. as we examine the score, you find the story that james told you about, the rush composition, they were frantic to get this done. they knew george is going to play the piano piece. he knew what that was. on the actual score, you will find a couple of pages of blank sheets because they did not get to that point.

they left at last because he knew what he was going to be performing. at the top of the page, before they go into where the whole orchestra comes in, there is a handwritten note that says, wait for nod. that is when the orchestra comes in. it kind of shows the personality and the story behind what was happening in addition to how important the jazz piece was. host: before we leave rhapsody in blue, modern audiences know it as a commercial song for united airlines. is it under copyrighted? ms. vita: no. the copyright has run out. two years ago or maybe within the last year the copyright has expired. host: will get into that in our discussion. back to what is the music

division at the library of congress. ms. vita: the music division is a really rich and vibrant part of the library of congress. if you would think of the largest public library in the world, the music division is a library within that library, probably as big as a large city public library. we do all the things regular library does. let's talk a little bit how we started. the congress had a library back in 1812 when the british burned the city using the books from the library to help start the fire. afterwards two years later, thomas jefferson convince members of congress to purchase his library.

his library had 13 books on music in it. that was the start of the music division in the library of congress. jarvis and made the argument that there is nothing that -- jefferson made the argument that there is nothing that citizens of u.s. would be interested in that should be in a congressional library. it became a branched out at that time. at first it started slow and then in 1870, the copyright law was changed and no longer work copyrighted works deposited in the states. they were to come to the library of congress. there is a photograph we have which shows a piano in a big room full of books that are

piled up. host: we are showing this to our viewers right now. about 1900. this is the music division? ms. vita: this is the music division in the 1900s. the music division did not exist until 1897 when they saw something has to be done. if you think about it, music is like another language. they cannot just give it to the normal people that took care of regular books in a library because they do not necessarily read music. we had to have experts that were able to do that. that was their job. consequently, that is how the music division started. i really think that jefferson -- deciding he needed to convince congress to look beyond just laws because if you think about

how many things we are dealing with today, talking about streaming and intellectual property rights, all of those things that affect music and the arts. if we had not collected all of this and were not interested in it, we would be doing a huge catch up job. host: is every piece of copyrighted music in american history contained in the music division? ms. vita: no, it is not. we have made a decision as to which things are likely to be used for academic study and for the use of american people. there are things like for example, the books that you use when you are learning how to play a piano, the educational things, they will not be in library. there will maybe be examples of

them but we do not keep everything. the answer is no. host: how do you choose which pieces to include in the music division? mr. wintle: it is a process based on what we use in the reading room and what people tend to come looking for. we have certain parameters that we deal with, caught a collection policy. -- called a collection policy that includes certain material we choose the catalog. there is a distinction to be made in that. when pieces are deposited to the copyright office, they are all capped at this point in history and some of those are catalogued and made part of the permanent collection. others are stored in an

off-site facility. they are so accessible but as far as breadth of american history, that has not always been the case. there been points were only title pages of books were part of the deposit agreement. when the copyright deposits were being taken to the state from essential state locations, that was a point in the 19th century when they were only title pages. the full books are not deposited in the first place. when it moved to the centralized library of congress, the law has changed over time in regards to what kind of things are deposited, how much and how many copies. we keep most things but some of them are kinda -- catalog

and some of them are not. host: how many audio recording so you have at the library's collection? ms. vita: the music division is not the -- how the responsibility for sound recordings. this the 70's the library made his decision -- in the 70's, the library made a decision to change the way it over nice and they went to a system where the format was important. sound recordings are now the purview of the nav cc institution. i can answer the question approximately but it is not under my purview. i would say they have about 10 million items. we have, this is not a

competition, we have been in existence longer than they have. we have 25 million pieces that are on paper. we are in charge of notes on paper and they are in charge of the set. host: we are here to look at the heart and history of american music the last 250 years -- art and history of american music the last 250 years. want to play the otis piece in the collection from the new england song thinker, a piece called chester and the artist for this modern performance, poul hiller and his majesty's clicks. -- clerks. take a listen. ♪

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host: what can you tell us about what we just heard? mr. wintle: that song, chester, is from a publication. it was the first book published in the united states, the first music book that contained music. it was an interesting figure. was born and raised in boston in the book was published er he was a singing school teacher. he would teach the masses how to read music using a method for reading music and would have these schools where he would teach song singing. this book is interesting for a

number of reasons. this piece "chester" is one that captured the imagination of composers throughout american history. it was a very famous piece from the 20th century by a man named william shuman that uses "chester" is a theme of the moment and there are a number of pieces throughout the look back to william billings as the source of their tunes and that goes back to what i was saying about rhapsody and blue and the idea of trying to find the americanness in classic music. william -- bill ings was one of the touchstones. the way he is described physically, one leg shorter than

the other, and eyepatch, this interesting looking guy who was a very prolific composer. in this book, he actually procured the services of a printer and an engraver in boston by the name opoul revere who people probably know from america history and writing or stairs around --horses around. paul revere engraved the piece in the front othe book. on the front page before the table of content, there is a circle with music and fellows sitting around the table looking at music around the table. the circular staff with music on it is actually around that can be sunk and this part of the book was -- can be sung in this

part of the book was engraved by paul revere. paul revere worked on engraving music a few different times but this piece is the most famous instances of his showing up in the music world. host: this is from 1770. let's use this piece to talk about copyright. can anyone use that music for any purpose? mr. wintle: i am not -- ms. vita: i'm not a copyright expert. it is a great question. people should be interested in it the answer to it, but i suggest they go to the copyright website. look up the copyright office. host: how often do you deal with those types of issues in your work? ms. vita: james would know that

more but it is frequent. mr. wintle: this daily event someone would call in and ask about copyright status of the work or ask about -- one of the most common questions we get is for a family who was cleaning out there grandmother's attic. to come across a copyright notice that the relative has written a piece of music at some point in their lives, something that often they were never aware of, will come to us and say, i have this copyright notice, is there anyway way we can find this piece. it would mean so much to us. those questions about accessing copyrighted material are extremely frequent. usually every day someone would come in and want to copy something and say is this ok and we have to defer of course to the copyright law and we have

signs posted. host: how large is your division at the library, staff, budget, and how did you get into this business? ms. vita: the greatest job i've ever had. it is the largest music library in the world. we believe. we have a staff of around 70 people. we do everything that any large public library would do. as i said before, we have about 25 million pieces that includes notes on paper, it includes books and biographies about composers. letters, correspondence, both business and personal. we will have a letter from george gershwin talking about going to a party. that was to celebrate mozart's

new teeth when he was getting dentures, i guess. we have wonderful correspondence we will find. photographs, beautiful photographs of jazz musicians. daily life. we have scrapbooks. when the call scrapbooks we have is -- one of the cool scrapbooks we have is from lucille ball. it is very rich. it is just a place where academics can come and use the material we have to further their research, as well as, will have people come in off of the street and say can you help us find this, my grandmother's,

whatever. that is a copyright question we can answer. at any rate, we also have musical instruments. probably the most famous would be our stride collection -- strad collection. we have six strad, stringed instruments. more recently, james madison's crystal flute which was played while here. and we have jerry mulligan's saxophone, that kind of thing. we also collect ballet. we have alvin ailey's collection . that's probably something and to mention, we have been talking about books and things you might find elsewhere for we might be

unique because they're so old but we branched out i would say mostly in the 20th century after the division was formed to do what we call special collections , which basically indicate we will take the papers of george gershwin and ira gershwin, of copeland, leonard bernstein, so those are unique. you will not find them anywhere else because there is only one of them. and we have about 600 different collections from different composers and artists in the music division and the ability to dive into them is magical. host: how did you get into this business? guest: i got into the business by being a good manager.

this is the sixth division i have run -- host: at the library? guest: at the library, yes. i hope it is not because i was so terrible at it. [laughter] host: we are glad you are joining us on the "washington journal" here at the library of congress to talk about the history of american music. the numbers are on the screen. you can dial in. between james and jason, my guess is they can -- james and susan, my guess is they can answer just about everything. (202) 748-8000 for you in the eastern time zone, (202) 748-8001 if you live in the mountain and pacific time zones. we begin taking those calls in a few minutes, but first, we are here to hear music, and the next piece we are going to hear is from francis johnson, and this is from 1818. ♪

host: james wintle, that was a lovely piece from 1818. guest: it really is. host: what was that? guest: it's part of a collection

called new cotillion advances by a composer named francis johnson. that publication in 1818 was actually the first piece of music copyrighted by a black composer in the united states. francis johnson was a really interesting figure. he lived in philadelphia and was the leader of an extremely popular band that would play for social dances. and it started what was known as the cotillion craze in philadelphia in the first part of the 1800s. it was interesting because there were integrated audiences going to these dances, listening to the francis johnson band who played for all kinds of different groups of people throughout the city and his orchestra was made up of all of the best black musicians in philadelphia at the time, and a

number of them were composers as well. so the members of the band would also write pieces for the orchestra to play, so there grew from this group a school of african-american composers who were all working in this sphere in philadelphia, writing music together and influenced by each other and have a really, quite an interesting group of compositions coming out of that city at that time. francis johnson was such a famous figure that, even after he died a few decades after this was published, his band went on as the orchestra and they would be performing under his name because his name was what would bring in the crowds. today, francis johnson is not a figure that is known in -- even

people who study american -- even among people who study american music. whenever i do it's a splay -- a display at the library, i like to pull it up because it such an interesting time in american music and he was such a pivotal figure. host: susan vita, before we take some calls, we are in the coolidge auditorium in the jefferson building of the library of congress. i will confess i always thought this was named after calvin coolidge. [laughter] it is not. guest: you are not the only one who thought that. it was mrs. coolidge -- mrs. coolidge was not maybe distantly related to calvin coolidge, she called herself the other mrs. coolidge, but she was an imposing woman and had an amazing influence on the music

division and its growth and history. host: and this is elizabeth craig -- guest: elizabeth craig coolidge, exactly. she came to the music -- to be chief of the music division of the time and said she was somebody who love the chamber music and she would have events in her own home to have performances, but she realized -- and she also was amazingly important in composed in commissioning new work. she commissioned almost every important composer from the later half of the 20th century, and we can talk about that in a minute. she would be the chief of music -- she went to the jeep of the music division and said she would like to be able to create a concert series so that -- and she would fund it -- so it would

live beyond her. the music division chief of course would not turn something like that down, however he said unfortunately we do not have a venue to present such things. she said what if i support of the building of that? and of course then that set into motion a very interesting and unusual thing, because, at that time, a public individual could not give money to the u.s. government for such a thing so there had to be a special bill, law, passed which was passed in january of 1924 and that enabled us and many donations after this donation for people to be able

to give money to the u.s. government. so i say the bill is passed around the 28th of january and the most amazing thing about the whole story i think is that the first concert was held, when do you think? host: i would say a year. guest: it was in october of -- less than nine months. back in the days when -- host: this is when they already had the -- guest: this was the courtyard. they put it into the middle of the courtyard, and it is acoustically magnificent. it is one of the major venues for chamber music that exists today. it is a wonderful story. she was just a dynamo, she was 61 and she would go around in her motorcar, she was terrific.

host: are there still music performances here? guest: absolutely. we are about to celebrate our 100th year, starting next year. we will be 100 years for having a chamber music series here in the library, and you can find that online but we have -- it is one of the eye think really important things to understand is they are all funded with gift and trust funds people have given us. none of that is from appropriated money. every single concert is completely free. there are no charges for it. host: and open to the public. guest: open to the public. so it is world-class, a-plus artists. we do about 40 concerts per year starting in october, going through june, and i encourage

you to check it out. host: so go to loc.gov, and what do they search? chamber musior something like that? guest: slash concerts. host: teresa is calling in from oklahoma. you are on the "washington journal" here at the library of congress. caller: good morning. i watched c-span every day and i am so glad you're doing this show. i was wondering if either one of you know the significance of the music history and the greenwood district where we have the oklahoma jazz hall of fame and how it all came about. host: is green with the area of

tulsa that was burned in the 1920's? caller: yes it was. and part of that was because of the music that was being played on maids night out. and the newspapers here were doing articles on how the young people, young white people, were going into an area and race mixing and dancing. and that was stirring everything up. then the woman claimed -- so anyway, that is what happened. host: thank you, teresa. let see if we can get an answer. james wintle, are you familiar with the tulsa jazz museum? guest: i am embarrassed to say i am not. embarrassed to say that because i'm actually from oklahoma. a few hours south of teresa in durrant, oklahoma, and i

actually was not even aware such a thing existed. in my defense, i have not lived there in over 20 years but that sounds like something that would be extremely interesting to explore. host: so where would you place jazz in the history of american music? guest: i think jazz is a critical part of american music. in the sort of mid and early 19th century, there was -- there were a lot of composers and musicians coming over from the caribbean to the southern united states, and the sort of combination of african music that was imported to this country, caribbean music imported to this country made this new kind of rhythmic and

musical sort of stew, gumbo if you will -- a lot of us from louisiana -- really made something new that was uniquely american. i think that jazz is really the first type of music that is really a new genre that really comes from america that we see as uniquely american, because it is a mixing of various cultures i came here and made something new, which is essentially what the whole american experiment is about. host: the next piece we are going to play is one i'm sure we are all familiar with and it is from 1814. >> ♪ oh say can you see, by the dawn's early light ♪ ♪ what so proudly we hail at the

twilight's last gleaming ♪ ♪ whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous night ♪ ♪ or the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming ♪ ♪ and the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air, gave proof through the night that our flag was still there ♪ ♪ oh say does that star-spangled banner yet wave ♪

♪ orr the land of the free and the home of the brave ♪ ♪

on the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep, where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes, what is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep, as it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses? now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam, in full glory reflected now shines in the stream, 'tis the star-spangled banner, o! long may it wave o'er the land of the free, and the home of the brave. host: susan vita, james wintle,

of the library of congress' music division. who was that singing? guest: geraldine ferraro. a well-known opera singer at the time who was also the star of silent movies and quite the sort of media star beyond the upper stage, which frankly was a little easier to do in 1916 than it is today, or more common. there is a painting of geraldine ferraro in your office. guest: in my office. i call her my roommate. [laughter] host: why is that piece included in the collection? why that specific piece? guest: that specific piece? host: with geraldine for our singing in 1960. guest: there are numerous recordings of the star-spangled banner.

and numerous in our collection. that is when we chose to share with the audience because geraldine ferraro was well known and was in the public domain so that worked out too. host: you talk about the collection of the musical instruments here, what is for people available to see online and see in person? guest: all the stringed instruments are available online and instruments given, they were given in the 1930's with the spit to -- particular strip elation that they must be played. she did not want them to just be

behind glass like a museum piece so regularly in the concert series i talked about a little earlier, the artist that used those instruments in playing so people could see them then and we have an annual tradition on the anniversary of stratton berry's death, we have a concert using the stringed instruments at that time. so there are flutes that are also available to see online and there are a few that are in display in a room adjacent to this concert hall. host: as susan vita mentioned, the library of congress has about 2000 historical musical instruments, and here is the curator, carol lynn ward bamford

with some of that. >> we are in the flute fault of the library of congress in the james madison building. this one is crystal. it was made for james madison in 1813 which was the start of his second term. it was sent by a flute maker in paris who had a patent for flutes of crystal. a few years ago, i was looking at the flute and i said to myself, it's not crystal clear. why is that? we have a preservation science testing division at the library of congress so i reached out to a colleague and said what is the composition of glass? and we did find, together, and

we realize that while the flute maker had a patent for flutes in crystal and was selling them as crystal and the early 1800s, they actually were not, they were all of normal glass like we use in our everyday drinking glasses except this one flute. this one is crystal. so james madison got quite lucky. he did not play the flute but he did have visitors come to his house. there was in the papers of dolly madison a letter to her saying can i come and hear the sweet flute again. the musical instruments in the collection have wonderful stories and these are recent gifts to the collection from the family collection and they are all from the civil war. this here you can see has an eagle on the front and it was made in 1861, about, in

philadelphia. you can see the makers label on the others of the drum. you can see in the little tiny glass whole. these drumsticks, you can tell these were used in the field. they are a bit battered, though they look great, this is a field repair. at some point, there have been a crack or something to save the drumstick and it was wrapped up and it is still secured that way. what is more fascinating, at the end of the drumsticks, there is an m carved here, for the owner jesse mills. he had been wounded twice, he had been captured twice, he and the five player had survived battle, the only ones to survive and he was presented these at the end of service. a wonderful bit of history with a lot of stories to be told and

learned about. and musical instruments. host: that was a look at some of the music of -- library of congress music division's collection. we have james wintle here from the reader services division and now we are going by nick brown, the assistant music chief. what is your role in this division? guest: to support the role of our experts throughout the division and work closely with the chief on the administration of the functions of the division and support our philanthropy relationships as well as participate in the planning of projects at the music division. host: when you speak of philanthropy, donations? guest: yep. the interesting model here at the library congress which is shared by many of the institutions and we are the oldest federal cultural institution in the united states is there is a basis of operation supported by the american taxpayer because we do work on behalf of the american people to

preserve our cultural history, cultural memory, for future generations. but there are things we are able to do on top of basic operations with the support of donors. we have wonderful members of our james madison counsel, our core philanthropy circle who supports our book festival and the library of congress. philanthropists have had a big role in shaping our concerts and publications and scholarly activities over the many decades . one cool story of our philanthropists is nicholas longworth, speaker of the house, president of the music while he was in office and that goes to show the central role our concert series has in the life of washington, d.c. and to think about being on the stage in world war ii in 1944 when appellation spring was premiered, one of our commissions on the concert series, and we had military officers here for that moment of community at a time of great

crisis for our nation and the world. so music is such a central part of american life and american identity, and reflects the fact american identity is along over time, with the jazz, that is something we are proud of, being a premier repository of the collection. we have people like hazel scott, the first black woman to host her own tv show, married to the congressman, famous pastor, when he was in office as well as people like max roach who we will hear a little bit about in a little while. we have ella fitzgerald and if you don't know these people by name, i guarantee you have heard something they have performed or written. think about the a-train, that was billy straight and who wrote that, so we are gathering materials that tell the stories we won the american people and visitors from around the world to discover and interpret and find connections with. host: james wintle and nicholas

brown , are either view music ecologist's? guest: we both are. host: how did you get into this business? guest: essentially by being born. both of -- both my parents were college teachers and my sister and her husband are elementary music teachers. it is the family business and so it was never really a question for me that i was going to go into music in one form or another. growing up, i was always interested in music. i did my first public performance as a singer at the age of nine, and kept singing throughout my life, did a degree in voice, two degrees in voice, and then went into musicology and the more academic side of music.

from there, having seen the common plight amongst phd's in musicology, not being able to find a job, i thought it was a good idea to come to the place where i enjoyed spending time the most, which was the library. i thought to myself, well, if i did not have to have a job, what would i do with my day? the answer was resoundingly i would go to the library and learn as much could learn about music every single day. that is really what i would do, so i thought well that is a job, why don't i just do that? and that is how i got here. host: let's go back to phone calls. this is john in temple hills, maryland, in the suburbs. good morning to you. caller: good morning. i would like to give a question for your panelists. right now, jazz is the indirect

result of racism. thank you. host: jazz and racism. anything for him? guest: at first i would like to shut up prince george's county. that is where i used to live, on the public library staff there and a neighbor of the college so thank you for calling in and watching. jazz has a significant role in the way americans evolved on race and civil rights because jazz brings people of all walks together. it is a really important space in which we can develop an understanding of our similarities and differences regardless of individual background. jazz has been at times described as things that might be problematic in terms of what we find acceptable now, different conversations. the u.s. government began to recognize the importance of jazz in the early/mid 20th century and the state department organized a lot of tours

internationally to bring just a other parts of the middle east and some figures we talked about , duke ellington and such, they were involved in some of these stores because jazz was cutting edge, the hip thing the united states was producing and there was an appetite outside of this country, even among countries that were not our allies at the time, to digest this music because it was so cool and they were being able to discover their own identity. there are huge jazz followings in countries like germany and other parts of eastern europe and such. jazz i think with any type of music can be used for narratives from any side of any ideological discussion and it has been an important form of american music that has brought people together from different backgrounds. that is a big reason why we collect them. host: do you collect today's genres as well, hip-hop, rap, country, etc.? guest: 100%. one of the cool things about the work of the library is we are a living institution.

we are collecting things happening today in american society and anticipating things that are going to happen in the future. this week, we were celebrating the 60th anniversary of the march on washington and we have items from march itself and the mac storage papers who participated in we have the program book. to bring that forth today, we are thinking about who with artists active, who are having a huge impact on shaping music in american popular culture? we collect their work, whether through photographs come over through the news coverage of their performances, but their copyright we are getting the recording there, films, mtv, music videos from when mtv was new, we have the first digital recordings, but that is a part of what we do as everyday business, it is not special because it is contemporary. there was a time when wax cylinder recordings where the thing, and they were new and cool and fancy. we have those too. they were the mp3s of their day. host: next call, jd, clarksville

, delaware. go ahead, jd. caller: hi, good morning, folks. i was wondering if the library has, in their collection, glass harmonica. host: can you give us a little more? caller: go ahead. host: just go ahead and finish your thought. the glass harmonica? caller: it's a series of discs played with the fingers. i believe it was invented by mozart but i am not sure about that. i would also like to ask if my old capitol hill friend eugene deanna is still associated with the music division of the library. host: if you could tell us before we turn to our guests, what is your interest in the glass harmonica? caller: i was living on capitol

hill for 20 years and i used to ride my bicycle over to the library. i was allowed to copy various scores. i used to love the liber installer file and that is the tin pan alley kind of stuff i adored. the glass harmonica is an interest to me because i love strange and unknown instruments. host: thank you for calling in, we appreciated. james wintle, you seem to understand what he was talking about. guest: i did. the glass harmonica was any instrument invented by benjamin franklin. he is correct that mozart did right a piece of music for it and dashed into the question directly -- we do not have a glass harmonica at the library of congress. i believe there is one at the smithsonian down the street.

but there are a number of pieces that were written for this instrument that is as he said quite an unusual thing, and we have those pieces of music of course in the collection but not the actual instrument itself. host: do either of you know his friend eugene diana? guest: yes. i believe he was the chief of of sound recordings. longtime colleague of the division. good guy. host: while it was 1934 and it was summer time and it was the gershwins. [applause] ♪ >> ♪ summertime, living is easy

♪ [applause] ♪ in the cotton is high. ♪ your mama is so good-looking ♪ so hush little baby, don't cry, don't cry. host: nick brown, we are used to hearing billie holiday seen that

but that was not billie holiday. guest: no, that was joni mitchell, our 2023 library of congress gershwin popular song honoree, a live performance from constitution hall living on public television. and wow, that performance was a surprise to most of us in the audience and anyone who thought joni mitchell was maybe approaching retirement was immediately discredited with that because she is still interpreting music in an remarkable way. that is from a seminal work of stage and music in american history. we have the manuscript as part of our gershwin collection at the library of congress. that is a song most people, you don't immediately think of as having a connection to the library of congress. that is what we are here to talk to you about, pre-much anything in american music there is a connection to the library of congress because we exist to capture these amazing works of art and make them available and

accessible to folks. if you were to come to the library at jefferson building visiting washington, d.c., just outside the concert hall you can visit our here to stay exhibit about the gershwin brothers. not only can you see one of the handwritten scores but you can see george gershwin's piano, he had many, and self-portraits by irene george. they were both painters. it is an amazing moment when we can look back at history to see works that have been created many years ago still have an immediate relevance to the creators working and living among us. host: and walking into the coolidge auditorium, i saw a display with marvin hamlisch and some of his awards as well. guest: yes. we have his papers. those of you who might not know his name would know a chorus line which is his hip musical. he was an amazing conductor that worked with the kennedy center and all over the united states, amazing film composer, one of

the few people who have what is ap god, a full it's her, me, grammy, oscar, and tony. most people that get to this level have an egot few have a pegot. host: let's hear from david in milwaukee. good morning to you. caller: good morning. i lead an orchestra in milwaukee that focuses on bringing black and latin composers to the forefront of classical music. can you all talk about what you have in print as far as black and latin orchestral user can, probably prior to 1850 if possible? guest: prior to 1850? host: prior to 1850. he is putting you in the hot seat. guest: that is going back a bit. i have talked a little before about francis johnson and his band and the composers that were

working around him in philadelphia. this is 1810-18 20's -- 1810's- 1820's. there is a lot of repertoire from that group of composers. before that, there are number of pieces in the collection from the [indiscernible] it was a fabulous violinist and composer. we have some of the early prince of his music. contemporary with his life, we have ygnacio sanchez, a number of these early composers from the early 19th and late 18th-century that were latin or of african descent. it is a very sort of early space for those composers to find a

voice in the broader musical environment, but we have what was published by a number of different latin and composers of african descent. host: james wintle, if he wanted more information, could he find online or is this "i better call james wintle at the library?" guest: there are a couple options. one is of course to call the library or probably a better solution would be email the library, and you can go to our website, which is ask.loc.gov, and that will send you to a sort of online forum -- form called ask a librarian and you can direct those questions to whatever department in the library you are hoping to contact if you are looking for music.

-- contact. if you are looking for music, you would direct that to the performing arts reading room, because we have not only music elections but collections related to dance and theater within that division. those are all served as the reading room and you can go on the library's website, loc.gov, and look at the various research guides we have. we have two different guides about finding music by black composers in our collection, important pieces among those are highlighted in that research guide and there's another for latin composers. if you look at the music research guides, there will be more detailed information about our holdings and how to get a hold of us. host: darnell, philadelphia, please go ahead. caller: hello. let me just say i look at c-span a lot, i call it the most boring

channel on tv but once a week i get a massive insight. the massive insight i just had was this tulsa, oklahoma, how the white population was afraid of the mixing of the races due to the music. i'm wondering if mr. wintle, in the near future, can he incorporate that concept into the display if you will of the library of congress? can he incorporate that music promoting love, joy, peace, and harmony instead it promoted a race riot. host: thank you and let's ask nick brown about that as the assistant music chief. guest: thank you for that question and for highlighting the importance of how these resources are presented so folks can understand the full truth of the situation. i would say with the tulsa

situation broadly the library of congress is the preeminent research repository for any of these major events in u.s. history. when you have any interest in a topic like tulsa and music, that will come to us in the reading room but there are many other places in the library that have research that would be relevant. earlier, we were talking about the newspaper coverage and the mixing of races and we have an amazing periodical reading room that has historic newspapers and many of those are starting to be digitized to our america project. for anyone that once to tackle one of these topics and help us understand these topics more deeply, to get in touch with us through the library and feature james mentioned, and your research inquiries help inform how we are able to present and curate the materials for the broadest possible access and understanding. host: who was alan lomax? guest: has not a folk expert, i will give you my classical

music, musicologist version. he's one of the most important people in understanding folk music. folk collections were part of the music division, particularly folk music in the mid part of the first half of the 20th century and there was any archive of american folk songs and folk culture part of the music division. library decided to invest in engaging field researchers to go out throughout the united states to capture recordings of the traditional music and voices and storytelling from different communities from appalachia to the pacific region and such. alan lomax, as well as many other folks in his orbit, were engaged by the library at different points in the 20 century to go out and do fieldwork and bring materials back for the library of congress. lomax was engaged with the library in the 30's to grow that

collection of folk music and, over the course of the decades in 20 century, when we approached the bicentennial celebration in 1976, congress and the library cited their need to be more resources paid to collecting american folk culture. that was the american folklife center, one of our divisions at the library now. so the music division is one of the longest standing custodial divisions and special collections of the library has an important role in the story of many parts of the library but as those collections grow in size and scope, the library appropriate lead decides to give dedicated resources to those subjects. at the end of the day we are not recording experts or folk experts in the music division but we know how to make the connections so others can access the materials. host: here is this from the lomax collection, john henry. [applause] ♪

♪

host: and that was gabriel brown performing that. james wintle, and the ark of american music, where does that piece fit in? guest: i think it is a really interesting part of american music because this is music that was created and disseminated outside of the academic music world. it was part of full can blues tradition that were really not known to the wider public before the lomax's in their group started recording these and disseminating them to the population. if there was not a gabriel

brown, there was not a robert johnson, there were not these performers who were making this music in the 1930's. then there would not be a rolling stones and there would not be an air clapped in and there would not be anything resembling what we have today as rock 'n' roll music. it is the origin story. this recording in these kinds of recordings are the origin story of what we know as american music. host: do you ever divide or look at music via cities, new orleans, memphis, nashville, detroit? guest: 100%. that is a big part of understanding music anywhere in the world, particularly with folk music. we think about music in the united states, chaz, new orleans has use role, new york has a huge role. if we think about gogo music, we are here in the home of go-go music and we can talk about what are the connections between that

and new york and chicago and elsewhere. at any point in time, the live music scene of a genre of music has such an important impact on the way the music is disseminated, that is an important thread in understanding how the music is received, appreciated, and celebrated and disseminated further. now we think about major touring artists, some of us may or may not be swifties. and people have been going bananas to get tickets for taylor swift concerts. taylor swift is reflected in the cities in which she is performing in. she is able to have major dates in all of latin america, which is rare for most american artists. there are few american artists that can do three to four nights in mexico city and fill out a stadium. that goes to show the city where music is present is an important part of the music itself. host: what -- where do elvis and motown fit into the history?

guest: elvis was of course an important figure because he was basically taking the music he had heard from the african-american performers in memphis and putting a different face on it, literally, to be able to market it to a different audience. at that point, in american music, the record industry itself was segregated in that there were records that were specifically marketed to black audiences and specific records marketed to white audiences. those kinds of separations went into the radio industry and all over. and for the rhythm and blues music of black culture to get on

white radio, into white record stores was extraordinarily difficult, and there were a lot of barriers put out there. and elvis was one of the people that, yes, perhaps was not the most original in what he was doing because he was copying these other performers to a certain extent, but he brought his own spin to it. and was the face of getting that rock 'n' roll music into the ears of white audiences. i remember my father who grew up in the 1950's telling me that when he heard elvis for the first time, it was the first time he had perceived that music could be dangerous, that elvis was this rebel figure who was emulating marlon brando and james dean and all of this but he was this figure that white

teenagers could look at and say this is something very different, this is something that takes music into a whole different thing and our perceptions, that was the thing. host: quickly motown. guest: motown was a huge part of american music and i think motown has a period and group of artists operating helped bring predominately african-american roots music to the masses be the made audience but it was marketed towards. we had great relationships with motown artists, presented in our national recording registry which is a cool program where the library congress alexa certain amount of recordings across genres important from a historic or a technological perspective. smokey robbins -- smokey robinson one of our honorees connected to this and, with these two things you brought up,

elvis and motown, not everyone listens to both. a lot of people don't listen to either. they are both important for being preserved in terms of telling the american story, and one of the cool things about elvis in particular that talked about our film collections that we know many significant pop singers cross into film so elvis's film appearances are significant in the way he was received as an artist in the american public more broadly, and those materials are preserved at the library as well. host: speaking of dangerous music, i want to see if either of you think this next piece we are going to play, billy strayhorn's take the a train, was considered dangerous at the time. ♪

host: james wintle, take the a train. guest: yes. you asked before if i thought this was a dangerous -- was dangerous music and i think the answer was yes. there was dangerous music at the time because it was challenging the preconceived notions of what jazz really was and could be. billy strayhorn was a deeply thoughtful composer, looking toward french classical music, toward a number of different influences in bringing it into his writing in a way that really made the orchestra -- duke ellington orchestra stand out from other bands at the time and academic music going on amongst his peers. so that in and of itself was dangerous. host: michael, delray beach, we are almost out of time but we want to hear your voice, go

ahead. caller: thank you. i noticed or heard from your managing director on earlier that there was over 2000 instruments in the library. my question is, how are they maintained and serviced because stringed instruments as well as brass instruments require care and maintenance. host: that is a great question. guest: that is a great question. thank for asking. that is what i was talking about earlier, philanthropy is a big part of supporting the work of the music division and, over the years, we have had various funds that have come in to support the maintenance of these instruments. mrs. woodall's foundation gave a gift along with the instruments that helps with this and we engage lou teays to help with the meanness of the district. because of the nature of these instruments, particularly part of them is using them. that is one of the reasons why

they are used in performance several times per year and when we come play on -- have people come play on them, they have to cover several days. the flu for example, we have state of the art storage and climate control. we are in the greatest institution that handles preservation and conservation across-the-board anywhere in the world. we will keep saying it and our experts have helped us structure the preservation conservation of these instruments in a way that will make sure they are available for as long as possible. for example, one of our projects our curator of musical instruments has done with our crystal and glass flutes is figure out what the impact of humidity and temperature are on the glass and they have a special dedicated storage facility where a lot of measurements are constantly being taken and such. and what that work has done has revealed a lot of the nature of the materials used and how we can best take care of them going forward. host: quickly, and on virtually 30 seconds, what can we learn

about american history through our music? guest: we can learn the individual voices of the american people who made that music and the story of america is the story of its people. host: anything to add? guest: for me, i think we collect your stories. the music that hasn't been an import and part of your life whether from your wedding or something a creator in your family made, we have things like that. i had a friend who told me her wedding song was one of -- songs. we pulled out the big band charts of the tune. that is amazing that is stuff you cannot make up and cannot ever buy but we are investing in that as an american people to make sure our stories are discoverable for posterity. host: nick brown, james wintle and earlier susan vita of the music division of the library of congress, we appreciate you letting us come over and spend a little time with you talking about the history of american music. and thanks for joining us on the "washington journal." [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2023]

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