support c-span as a public service along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> coming up on "washington journal" we look at the seditious conspiracy trials related to january 6 and the federal election subversion case facing president trump with ella lee of the hill. and atlantic staff later franklin foer discusses the first two years of the biden presidency. and we will cover the morning headlines and take your calls live. "washington journal" begins now. ♪ host: good morning. it is friday, september 8. 13 presidential libraries put out a joint statement that warned the public of polarization and the weakening of american democracy.

during the first hour we want to know your thoughts on the countries trajectory when it comes to democratic ideals and principles. are you optimistic or pessimistic about democracy in the u.s.? if you're optimistic the number is (202) 748-8000. pessimistic, (202) 748-8001 up you can also send as a text at (202) 748-8003. send your first name and your city state. and we are on facebook and x and instagram. welcome to today's washington journal. i want to start with any people that came out in july of -- with an ap poll that came out in july of this year. americans are widely pessimis about democracy in the united dates. the results show that half the

countr shows democracy is not ing well in the united stompared with 10% who say it is working extremely well and 40% somewhat well. about half also say each of the political parties is doing a bad job of upholding democracy, including 47% who say that about democrats and 56% about republicans. you can weigh in on that question, optimistic or pessimistic about democracy in the united states. if you're optimistic. if you are pessimistic (202) 748-8001. take a look at this from the new york times. this is from hoover to nixon to obama, presidential centers call to protect democracy, a rare statement released jointly from

representing nearly a century of presidents stresses the pillars of democracy and stability in politics. we are joined by david kramer, executive director of the george w. bush institute, who spearheaded that effort to put out that statement. welcome to the program. guest: good morning. thanks for having me. host: what was the impetus behind this statement? how did it come about and why now? guest: we thought about this a little over a year ago. it wound up on the shelf. this spring we decided it was a good idea to dust it off given the times we are in these days. we updated it and then centered around to our fellow presidential centers and foundations and got a very enthusiastic response.

it more or less stays the same as what we sent out. we felt that given our unique position as presidential centers we had an application -- we had an obligation to speak out and get beyond the day-to-day headlines we see and remind fellow americans we are a great nation rooted in the ideals of freedom and democracy and we are best when we show compassion and tolerance and respect for others and united we are a much stronger country. host: your statement says the u.s. is a house in disarray. what leads you to that conclusion? guest: we do not deny that our polarization is very high. we see very heated rhetoric these days. questions about the integrity of our institutions. we believe it is important to try to restore and renew confidence and trust among americans in our institutions.

we know how to conduct elections. while there has been controversy , our elections are well-run. we also want to try to restore trust and other democratic institutions. equally important, we feel we need to return to a sense of stability. there is no pollyanna perspective on our past. there was a caning in the u.s. senate chamber in 1856. we went through a civil war in this country. it was only in the early 1900s that women were granted the right to vote. our history has been challenging throughout the years. we have shown we strive towards a more perfect union and we felt that in these challenging times it is important to issue this positive statement that other centers could rally around. host: you had an opinion in the dallas morning news with the headline "americans who see

bipartisanship as week must find ways to come together" and you also pointed gerrymandering as one of the causes of partisanship. you walk us through that connection. guest: partisanship is very often necessary in order to get legislation passed through congress and signed by the white house depending on the composition of the white house and the congress. bipartisanship has become seen as a dirty word, almost a weakness on the side of some political figures, those who will not stick with their party no matter what. it is important to find a middle ground to get things done and ensure our democratic system of government delivers for average americans. gerrymandering thrives on political figures of one extreme or another.

it is creating and carving up districts that play to republican or democratic base. it does not provide incentives for those political figures to move towards the middle. instead it is an incentive for them to play to the extremes. gerrymandering is not a new phenomenon. it has been around for 200 years. it is something that is increasing our polarization. it is something that needs to be addressed. we are seeing court challenges in various states and we will see what happens in the future. it is hard to do because there are vested interests that do not want to see it changed. host: former president trump does not have a library yet. was he invited to participate? guest: he was not because of the reason you decided. he does not have a foundation or a center so we reached out to all of the existing foundations and centers in the united dates.

-- in the united states. that goes back to herbert hoover. we are covering almost a century of presidents. host: how easy was it to get everybody to sign on? 13 is a good number. guest: we were pleased with the response and it was very bipartisan. it was crucial to us that the issue this statement we needed to have a bipartisan representation of former presidents and their foundations. the response we got was very positive. people found there was a need for such a statement and now is the time to issue this. we were very pleased. the response we were getting has been encouraging. there is a large majority of americans who do want to see the system work effectively. looking for reasonable voice to

handle debates and disagreements , which are very vital to our democracy, but do them in a civil manner. we want to emphasize this ability, the compassion, tolerance, the pluralism, and to remind americans that for all of our flaws and the problems in the past, we do have a track record of striving towards a more perfect union. we go through difficult times. in the 1960's we had major political assassinations. yet we somehow get through this because we are a great nation rooted in ideals. host: give me something concrete you want the american public to do to further democracy and further stability. guest: in our statement we call on our political leaders and political figures to ensure that

government works for americans, to lead by example, to show they can disagree with people on the others of the political aisle in a civil manner. for every day americans, you can get a neighborhood group to clean up a nearby park. join the school committee or city council. join the military. join government service. there are many ways of participating infantry beating to the nation. voting is also an important part of the political process in the united states as it is for any democratic society. ensuring participation is key. we want to make sure americans do have a voice and are being heard, but it starts at the top but everyone can involved in needs to play a role. that is something we try to urge in this statement.

host: david kramer, george w. bush institute director. thanks for joining us. guest: thanks for having me. host: you can find the complete statement at bushcenter.org. we are taking your calls this morning on the question of american democracy. are you optimistic or pessimistic about democracy in the u.s.? we just want to read a short portion of that statement from those 13 presidential libraries. it says "as a diverse nation of people with different backgrounds and s democracy holds us together. we are a country rooted in the rule of law or the protection of the rights of all people is paramount. at the same time we live among our fellow citizens, underscoring the importance of compassion, tolerance, pluralism, and respect for

others." the statement continues "americans have a strong interest in supporting democratic move and respect for human rights around the world because free societies elsewhere contribute to our own security and prosperity at home. that interes undermined when others see our own house in ay. the world will notfor us to address our problems. we must continue to strive toward a more perfect union and help those abroad looking for u.s. leadership." we will go to the phones and start with michael in north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. it has been sometime since you are on the air so it is nice to have you back first thing this morning on the east coast. i just wanted to say that i am very optimistic about the things going on with politics and our democracy and freedom.

there are still some problems, but i feel like they are being worked out. there are some indictments going on and there are great things to look forward to with bipartisanship. i feel like the republican party who i am a part of and i am a member of the republican party voting wise, i think it is going through some changes and people are seeing the light slowly but surely. we will get back on track as a party and i think the democratic party is doing some great things. they have passed some good legislation that i feel was good legislation. host: like what? what is the legislation you like? caller: there were three major that i can think of.

the name seem to slip my mind. you caught me off guard. the infrastructure bill was major. even donald trump wanted to spend more money than president biden did. president trump was definitely for a major overhaul of infrastructure and it is much needed because china is doing great things with their infrastructure. i did remember the inflation act. to help with the inflation. there was some climate and things for climate stop i believe there is climate change but i did not like the way we are going about with electric vehicles because we can never charge all of these electric cars.

if everyone were to drive an electric car, where are we going to have all of these charging stations at and how are we going to build them? solar power is also a good thing but the solar panels, i do not think you can recycle solar panels from what i understand. host: we are going to move to donald in virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. i am pessimistic because washington post motto is democracy dies in the dark and with the advent of ai and technology they can reproduce people and voices in a way that eventually they will not be able to tell the difference up it is going to spread through the internet. with that information -- without

information you can trust you cannot have a democracy. i will put out an appeal to james cameron, who did avatar, he is at the edge of technology. i think it would be a great thing if you would put a documentary together to explain the dangers and possibly come up with solutions. right now i understand the chinese a law that says they have to watermark any artificial intelligence stuff they have put out. which is a good start in my opinion. host: randy in michigan. good morning. caller: i would like to stand by thanking you all the men and women it takes to bring this great program. you are doing the nation a great

service. i am optimistic and what i go by is the last election. i live in a red ocean where this little democrat sits and i can tell you i love debating all of my republican friends. we have all seen democracy was threatened. we came together. not talking to one another but at the voting booth and showed we really cared about our democracy. and we liked the fact that we can discuss policies and disagree with each other. that is the way they are. that is why i am optimistic. the american people, the silent majority. we have a lot of squeaky wheels and after a while people think all of that noise is what is actual. i think the last election showed the american people are a lot smarter than everyone gives them credit for.

they are not going to change nobody's views politically on policy. still going to debate or disagree with them on everything else but when it comes to supporting our democracy american people showed support or the democracy. host: i want to ask you one thing about election workers being threatened. what do you think is the solution to that? caller: that is a great question but i am not sure. it is like trying to fight terrorism. you will always have somebody. you cannot stop stupid. not to be disrespectful, but the people that threaten the workers, i don't know how you stop that. that is just human nature, good,

bad, or otherwise. i cannot do nothing about that. i'm grad -- i am glad we have strong poll workers that believe in democracy because they're not going to put up with it, at least not out here. you do not pull that out here. i am lucky enough to be in an area where we know each other quite well by site if not personal. thank you very much. host: let's go to nebraska. good morning. caller: i really do think that if we do not fix the black population problem in america this country is definitely going by the wayside. host: explain what you mean. caller: first of all, we have to

claw back of that money they are trying to waste in the education department. that does not need to exist. they need to take that money and going to every single large city, small city, and build these kids schools they can learn in. right now they have nothing. they still don't have air conditioning in baltimore schools. we have to get that fixed. the universities have enough money that they can take and educate and give the blacks a free education. if you are white and you think -- i am 66 years old i am a white man and i retired.

if we think we do not treat the blacks in a bad way, you not being honest. sundown laws and all of the crab we did to the black people, not only should we educate them. i do think they should get reparations. i don't know how to do it. it was not hard for these guys to figure out how to pay these people when the twin towers went down. we could still set up something like that. even if it is just a couple of dollars they could still get something. give these kids in education. host: let's go to massachusetts and david. good morning. caller: this is david calling.

i am calling to talk about the election process. i feel that this concern about election fraud that has come up recently as a result of donald trump needs to be addressed. we need to address our election system -- all election fraud. we need to make it impossible for election fraud to happen. we need to implement policies and rules and regulations to accomplish this. there are several ways this can be done. i would like to suggest we have

a separate voting list for the presidential election so that we can be sure everybody just boats once -- just votes once in the presidential election. only one place in the united states and the presidential election. i also think the president election ballot should be separate from the state ballot. i think that would help. host: let's take a look. recently on "washington journal" university of pennsylvania's kathleen jamison talked about the importance of civic education as a way to improve democracy in the u.s.. >> if we have engaged democracy we have to start out by saying everyone needs to understand what it means to be in our government.

we did a survey that asks can you name five branches of government -- the three branches of government or five rights protected by the first amendment. imagine you are reading the news and you do not know there are three branches or if you are you think one is the democratic national committee and one is the republican national committee, you will not make much sense of the political environment. at a young age we need to start understand what our system is, how it works, why we should be proud of its resilience, and what are the levers we should use to change things when we are unhappy with the way things are going. civics education is the foundation of engaged citizenship. >> how are we doing it in the united states right now? >> we are not doing worse than we have in the past, we have just never done it very well. we are now at a time where it is more important than it has been to understand how things work. we have so many consequential

issues. we have a lot more polarization. as a result we have a situation in which you have elections very closely decided. it is more important than ever that you cast an informed vote. that you cast an informed vote. imagine what you vote based on what you think is an issue distinction and it turns out you are wrong about which candidate supports which position or it turns out they have the same position. you might cast a vote that is different than the vote you would if you are fully informed. making sure the citizenry is engaged, and dutch so in an informed -- and does so in an informed fashion to make sure we get the will of the people translated into our government. host: what do you think? are you optimistic or pessimistic about democracy in the united states? if you're optimistic it is (202) 748-8000.

if you are pessimistic it is (202) 748-8001. roberto is calling from houston. hello. caller: hello. i am very pessimistic. i am retired. i would like to ask america is trump and biden the best we can do? that is ridiculous. i have heard the expression we get the government we deserve. you asked a good question. what can we do about this for those of us who are pessimistic? i have a solution. have high school student councils and high school newspapers. those are very important democratic institutions. this lady who was lecturing us about civic education, she should have mentioned that. let's have our children practice democracy. when i was in sixth grade i was

elected to student council, i was an officer. sixth grade. that is unheard of today. instead of lecturing our young people about democracy, that is how they get bored. have them practice democracy. we can do better than biden and trump. thank you. host: mark is calling from california. good morning. thanks for -- caller: thanks for taking the call. i think the white population, they were ok with democracy as long as they were a majority. they are shrinking now and they are starting to act out. you go back to history you see the trend. every time they start losing, they burnt the black towns down, every time they find themselves

threatened, and the polls show you that. who in the world that still favor a racist -- like a mob figure. doing it all in broad daylight. they might as well be in the kkk. host: what makes you optimistic? caller: i am optimistic because we have a democracy that is still there, as fragile as it is. you cannot move forward until you see the truth. you cannot just jump over it like people like to do. you cannot jump over it. like the other caller wants to discount slavery. that is outrageous. host: rich is next in wisconsin.

how are you feeling about democracy in the u.s.? caller: i am pessimistic. we are a constitutional republic, not a democracy. as far as our elections go, i would like to refer to february 4, 2021 article in time magazine , the secret history of the shadow campaign that saved the 2020 election, which is basically a confession of what they did to change rules and implement -- you are talking about threatening poll workers. that happened in 2020 in michigan. they blocked off the observation areas so the press could not see. they move people around. can we get back to just being honest with the american people? they legalized propaganda after obama with the reauthorization

of forces act, the ndaa, they right bills nobody needs, they sent moneys to countries nobody can find on a map. our own countries decaying around us, but everything is fine. host: what you think our role is as the american public? caller: to get involved. we need paper ballots. one day elections. we can have a small grace period for people who need help, give them the assistance they need. we cannot have election weeks. wisconsin was supposed to be cleaning our voter rolls. we still have not cleaned our voter rolls. they keep contesting it in court, we will disenfranchise people, it is a joke. a liberal of joke. you cannot find one yard sign provided in wisconsin but the

man -- you cannot find one yard sign for biden wisconsin but the man won wisconsin. they get a recount but they recounted fraudulent balance. washington works for washington. we need to get back to states running our own government. we gave the federal government the power it has and they are squishing the states. host: let's check in with social media. we got this on facebook from tom. "i am optimistic that the proto-democracy -- the pro-democracy candidate will be the authoritarian candidate in 2024 as he did in 2020." from james, "presidential libraries are reminding us of what we are seeing more clearly. forces in our midst are intent on undermining the core principles of our democracy. to be crystal clear, the threat

being alluded to is trumpism. democracy is fragile and kudos to these organizations for taking such a strong strand -- a strong stand against this threat. the more eyes that are open the more optimistic we can be democracy survives." mary is in richland. richland, washington. go ahead. caller: good morning. i have never spoken with you. just as my vote is so important so is my call because i have waited until something i thought was really important. i am very optimistic about this country because -- i do not go on social media. i watch you in the morning and i get enough negative backlash. when i am out of the store where

i am just out, i try to treat people the way i would like to be treated. i was thinking about yesterday or the day before when they had the teacher on. i think we should have civics like they taught us in school. but also it is important to me because i learned this from my family. not just my mother and father but my grandparents. i hear a lot of people having the talk with their children. we had the same thing. our parents taught us not to do this, not to go there. i truly believe in this country. my whole family has fought for this country. what i think we should do -- i

am one of the silent majorities or whatever they call it. i speak up for the country. i know we are a republic. i ask a lot of the young kids i see at the grocery store, you say the pledge of allegiance? the things we did when we were kids. these other people that are older and are pessimistic about it, what can they do to help these young people to come back to our core values? a lot of the stuff you see on tv between big pharma and the other stuff, it is all propaganda, and people are buying into it. i wanted to let you know you're a beautiful woman and i want you to have a good day and god bless america. republic -- we are a republic. one nation under god, indivisible. another thing is people have

forgotten about god. they go right to the computers and get on social media. host: let's move on to cecil in alexandria, virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. i think the tremendous problem with democracy it is keeps too many people from exercising their rights. it is true that the scourge of racism hinders democracies development. we still have a legacy of slavery that excludes many african-americans. remember the japanese internment. host: tell me your thoughts on today. how is racism excluding people from voting? caller: first of all, you are

excluding in the sense you have blacks still lingering on the outside of american life. through gerrymandering. you have excluding hope. black populations cannot have proper representation. you have them not having their stories fully told. you have black families and babies getting assaulted, often times by police. you know alabama, recently the u.s. supreme court denied that but their goal was to further disenfranchise black ability to vote. you have many of our leaders being silenced. martin luther king eliminated. blacks are not walking blind through america. democracy is not working.

china is rising like some big albatross. now it might be more open. the problem with america is the european culture. having a few people having full representation and excluding others, including latin america. host: let's go to nashville, tennessee. glenn is on the air. caller: i am very optimistic about what is going on in america. one thing that i think is a big problem is that some people are getting the wrong facts.

some people believe in alternative facts. some people believe in the truth. some people believe in falsehoods. they made up their minds about situations that is untrue. the bible says you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. some people are building their lives and making decisions based on lies. host: how do you know what the truth is? caller: i think that when the media representatives say

something that is untrue they should be called out at that moment. host: let's take a clip from last month on washington journal. we had a discussion on the importance of polarization in the united states. here is a portion from the author of "the way out." >> it a dangerous time. if you look at how i rate many progressives are because of rulings by the supreme court. if you look at how irate many trump supporters are because of the multiple indictments he is facing in the story behind that, the narrative around that, which is that it is a weaponized justice system, i think what

this does is creates a higher probability of violence. we see this when it -- with something called scotus cast of terrorism -- called soka stick terrorism -- it increases the chance that people will become violent. i am very worried about this. i do not see major ruptures to the patterns we have seen in the past around election cycles, and the election is a high-stakes, high risk time. people go all in with their candidate or against the other candidate. i am very worried about political violence. i am not alone. there is a pole in the new york times about the percentage of americans that feel our nation is on the brink of failure. we were downgraded as a

democracy to a flawed democracy a couple of years back by the economics union of the economist. we are now feeling that at home. we are feeling that in our communities that there is this flaw in the basic structure of how we live our lives, how we view the other, the news we watch. it unfortunately is a wicked problem, which means it is not just me and my attitudes or our relationship or the lack of relationship with people, but it scales and effects where we travel, where we do not travel, who we talk to, who we don't. the websites we frequent. it is a pervasive problem in our lives. the evidence is bad. the trends we have been tracking for decades are particularly bad , some of them at a historical level of enmity and hate for the other.

that is a recipe for terrible political violence like we saw in january 6. that is my concern. we are moving into this with all of these forces combining together to pit us against each other and pull us apart. i am concerned that whether or not the middle will hold. host: and we have a little under 20 minutes left in this segment asking you about your feelings about democracy in the u.s., optimistic or pessimistic. jesse is calling from florida. good morning. caller: i have a real problem with the two parties. they do not listen to us. they give us two candidates that nobody wants. they give us borders that according to the polls everybody wants the border control, but

they do not do nothing. they give us an environment where we have people shooting one another and nobody does anything. i think it is the fact that the two parties are not listening to the people. you cannot have a democracy run by parties, not people. i am really pessimistic until we get something that makes congress and the president listen to the people, we will not get there. host: is there a third party that you would prefer? caller: i can see us having two parties. i don't want to trump and i do not want biden. give me somebody else to vote for. i am not alone. if you look at what the parties and polls are saying, a lot of us do not like the selection

they are giving us. they need to listen to us. host: philly in cincinnati, ohio. good morning. caller: i believe our issue is facts. we have laws that are supported by facts. there is no way you can have a guy that is indicted four times running for the highest office in the world without explaining the indictment. visibility means a lot. in this country always check out who is running for the highest office in the world and check out the birthplace, the history, the education, and so forth? you have a gentleman running for office that is indicted.

the constitution states plainly that he is not eligible to do that. host: how does the constitution say he is not eligible. caller: the 14th amendment. it is plain as day. he participated. whether he sponsored or whether he caused it, he participated. he has no evidence showing he tried to stop it. he went around the country for the last couple of months or years saying he was robbed. that is not how to solve a problem, telling people you were robbed. the court told him he was not. he went to the courts. six times they told him we have no evidence of that. let it alone. he continued to build this lie into the out-of-control thing now that is affecting the people. caller: what is making you

optimistic -- host: what makes you optimistic? caller: what makes me optimistic is the people that believe with note after missed to support it. the trust they have an ally with no facts -- with no facts is very frightening. host: robert, texas, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am quite pessimistic about the state of democracy in our country. everyone seems to have forgotten the warning that george washington issued in his farewell address. political parties are a danger to democracy and should be eliminated. we even had a civil war.

host: how do we turn things around? caller: we should eliminate political parties in the united states. all of them. not just the republicans or the democrats. we are not exactly living in democracy, we are living under a two party tyranny. we should institute rank-choice voting at the federal level and top five primaries, not top two, and basically voting starting at the local level. you vote for your local candidate for president and they compete against other local candidates, going on to state and regional and federal level. we have the top five competing for a majority of the votes and they compete and campaign.

people say if you eliminate political parties that is a violation of the first amendment. i disagree with that. i believe you can have freedom of association or freedom of assembly and the right to petition the government for a regressive grievances without organizing political parties. just like washington said, they tend to misrepresent the opposition. with parties, with organized parties, you can get somebody who is ambitious but not scrupulous as designs on despotism, turning a does party system into one-party rule. host: let's talk to roland. upper marlboro, maryland. good morning. caller: good morning.

democracy is good, but the problem i see is we are polarized. i am a republican. the fact is there. what is wrong with biden being old? when trump was there we had high inflation. this is what people do not understand. i learned the three houses of government when i was in ninth grade. i don't know what you are doing. are they voting for their conscious or voting for the man? did he commit a crime? we have to look at the social

media. every social media account you have a lawyer that is a journalist. [indiscernible] it is time to wake up. host: slipped a text we got from jill from columbus, ohio -- let's look at it text we got from jill in columbus, ohio. i am pessimistic because the trump is the front runner. democracy has become optional. i am concerned about the rise of fascism. also by a text from john in minnesota. the bottom line is we will never have a free constitutional

democracy as long as we have a media intent on the agenda of the party of the left. that is not with the founders envisioned. they promoted and protected a free press. our media has become more along the lines of vladimir putin's media. host: johnny in tampa, florida. how are you feeling about democracy in the u.s.. caller: i have a story i would like to tell. i am a black man. i went to a small college. every class i went to i was the only black in the class. the first week of class, only one person talk to me. the rest of the class never said one word. then we had our civil rights.

this is 1966. people were demonstrating. some kid in the class asked, i would like to know why do blacks want to live next to white people. i held my hand up to answer the question. she said johnny ith think you are the one to answer this question. i said this. blacks do not want to live next to live next white people because they are white. we want to have the privilege to live anywhere we want to live. birds of a feather always flock together. then i asked another white kid, i said have you ever met a black person? have you ever talk to a black person? he said i never have. then what gives you the idea you do not want me to live next to you? because people said you are violent and you want to hurt us and you hate us. i said that is not true.

i said i am a human being like you. i feel this country is my country as much as anybody else's country. the other girl said i was afraid to talk to you because they told me you did not like us. i said that is not true. to make a long story short after a couple days of that that came to be my best friend and we have been best friends since then. the question is we have to get to know each other. we live in different neighborhoods. we go to different schools and we do not integrate with each other. if you get to know a person you will find out they are not what people might think they are. thank you. host: mark in virginia. good morning. caller: i will take the longer view.

i was a kid in the bay area in the 1960's when there were a lot of vietnam protests and i had friends going to vietnam. it was pretty intense. we went through the 1970's. i started college in 1980 and john lennon had just been assassinated and ronald reagan had become president and i started reading the newspaper, the l.a. times. every day for about 30 years. for the longest time, it could go does go to three weeks when nothing happened. i would say nothing is happening in the world. now everything is happening every 30 seconds. it is so much more intense now just watching the news than it ever was -- just in the last five years. i've watched all the news, i read the papers.

it is intense what is going on. at the same time i have been reading what was behind the drug war, what was behind the vietnam war, and then you start reading about what the cia has been involved with since 1953, then you read about citizens united and you read about dark money, and you realize how much it is all corrupt. you look at the parties. i was never a democrat because i knew lyndon johnson was responsible for vietnam so i was never going to be a democrat, i was never going to be a republican. i'm not anybody. finally bernie sanders, i thought here is a guy can vote for, but there is no way the democrats were going to allow him. you saw what happened in 2016. for a guy like me, i always voted for the lesser of the

evils and a always feel like i'm voting for the people. it is always people no matter what -- it is always evil no mat ter what. looking at climate change, nobody's doing anything about climate change. i am 60 some years old and it is like nobody my age cares. i am pessimistic. whoever wins this next election, if they even figure out who does , whoever wins and whoever loses , i imagine it will just be like the 1960's, or maybe the 1860's as far as i can tell. host: nikki is in florida. how do you pronounce the name of the city? caller: immokalee. host: go ahead. caller: i am very optimistic because i believe the voters

will realize that the former president does not have the intelligence to know he lost the 2020 election, he does not have the intelligence to be president of our united states. i am a very optimistic about that. i think the voters will realize that before the election. i think they will realize that he is not smart enough to be the president. and have the intelligence to know he lost the 2020 election. it takes intelligence to know that. host: randy in louisiana. good morning. caller: thank you. this democracy, it is like two

wolves and a sheep voting what is for dinner. the republicans and democrats, it is a one-party tyrannical system. we have been had the civil war when they brought in the federal reserve and the banking system. that is going to bring us down for sure. , lbj, bushes, clinton's, obama's, they have infiltrated all three branches of government . it will be business as usual. if they do not fix the voting machines and be business as usual. these people that are in office right now, they are orchestrating to bring this country down and are doing a great job. the american people are so dumb,

it is unreal. you would think i would need to tell you who was the first president of the united states, person on the street. i could go on and on. i grew up in the 1960's. segregation came to an end. i've met some really good black people. now you cannot even talk to a black person. host: we are going to close with this text from carolyn in hollidaysburg, pennsylvania. "hoping the statement by the presidential libraries calls for community involvement. once we wrote buses and trains and streetcars and we gathered on front arches. all changed by the mass media. covid emphasized the need for human contact. let's get to know one another." that is the time we've got for this segment.

we will revisit the same question later in the program. if you did not get a chance to weigh in you have another opportunity later on in the program. coming up, ella lee, court reporter for the hill, discusses the latest seditious conspiracy sentences related to the january 6 attack and what they could mean for the federal election subversion charges facing former president trump. and later, author franklin foer joins us to talk about his book about the first two years of the biden presidency. we will be right back. ♪♪ >> this fall watch c-span's new series, books that shaped

america as we embark on a captivating journey with the library of congress to explore key works of literature from american history. the books we will look at lead to significant societal changes and are talked about today. here about experts who will talk about the profound impacts of these works and virtual journeys to significant locations intricately tied to celebrated authors and unforgettable books. among the featured books, " common sense," "their eyes were watching god," and "way to choose." watch our 10 point -- 10 part series starting monday september 18 at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span now or c-span.org.

>> the studentcam documentary competition is back, and this time we are celebrating 20 years with the theme looking forward while considering the past. >> the youth of today are the are leaders of tomorrow. it is imperative that we take part. >> with more awareness we can work together and overcome the next pandemic. >> inflation really matters so it is important to understand the ramifications. >> we are asking middle and high school students to create a five to six minute video addressing one of two questions. in the next 20 years what is the most important change would like to see in america, or over the past 20 years, what has been the most important change. as we do each year, we are giving away $400,000 in total

prizes with a grand prize of $5,000. because we are celebrating 20 years, every teacher has the opportunity to share a portion of $15,000. the deadline for students is friday, january 1024. for more information visit our website at studentcam.org. >> a healthy democracy does not just look like this, it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work. a republic thrives, get -- get informed straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nations capital to wherever you are, to get the opinion that matters most, your own. this is what democracy looks like, c-span, powered by cable.

>> washington journal continues. host: welcome back. i am joined by ella lee, a court reporter for "the hill," welcome. henrique is the former leader of the proud and a key figure in the january 6 capital b attack. he was sentenced this week, tell us about his role in the capital attack and significance of that 22 year sentence. guest: so on tuesday he was sentenced to 22 years in prison for his role in the capital bank attack, it is the longest sentence handed down in connection with the january 6 attack so far, which is obviously a big win for the justice department, even though it was 10 years short of what they asked for. they requested 33 years in

prison for him saying that he was not just a leader in the proud boys, but the legal -- the leader of their efforts to stop the certification. they painted him as someone who had an outsized influence on members of the group. host: let us drill down. he is convicted of seditious conspiracy and how prosecutors made their case. guest: to be convicted of seditious conspiracy, you have to be convicted of plotting to use force to oppose the government's authority or block the execution of a law. in this case that was the certification of the 2020 presidential election. the case was a little bit more challenging because he was not in the -- in d.c.. two weeks prior he was arrested for burning a black lives matter flag from a church and was ordered to leave d.c..

he abided by that order and watch the attacks unfold from a baltimore hotel. so the defense attorneys argued that he should be treated differently than his codefendants, many of whom were part of the most significant reaches. but the fact that he sort of motivated people to go to the capital and recruited members to go to the capitol and prosecutors are -- ultimately argued that that should take priority over the fact that he was not there and a jury agreed. host: there have been over 1100 people from that day being charged and indicted related to january 6. how many like tarrio have been charged with seditious conspiracy? guest: only 14 out of 1100 have been charged with seditious conspiracy. in his case he was tried alongside three other proud boys. three of them were convicted and

the fourth became infamous for smashing in the window at the capitol and a photo widely spread, he was acquitted of the charge. we have those four. host: he was acquitted of suspicious conspiracy and convicted of -- guest: multiple other felonies. for jeremy, he pled guilty ahead of trial so he did not go to trial with them. he decided to join the government in helping them make their case against the proud boys. on the other end we have the oath keepers, a right-wing militia group who were tried, five of them together alongside leader stewart rhodes. rhodes ankelly maggs were convteof concern -- seditious conspiracy. the three others were acquitted the convicted of serious felonies. in a separate trial with four other oath keepers they were convicted of seditious conspiracy. host: can you tell us how they

are similar and different? guest: the proud boys were founded in 2016 in -- by a name -- by a man named gavin mcginnis. they painted themselves as a drinking club with a politics problem. what we have seen them ultimately become is a group that have a proclivity towards political violence. many members gravitate towards white nationalist and misogynist ideologies and we saw evidence that tarrio among his peers at the drinking was a cover for the recruiting. -- with the oath keepers they were founded much earlier in the early to thousands, and they are a paramilitary group. the oath keepers name comes from this of that military members and law enforcement take to the constitution when they joined surveys. members are asked military and then and current law and -- ex

and current law enforcement as we saw that play out. many oath keepers stud out because they were in the paramilitary gear wearing vests, helmets and walkie-talkies. and the photo that sticks out in everyone's mind is everyone climbing up the capitol steps in stack formation. host: how do you join? is it like you pay dues? is there a newsletter? explain that. guest: a lot of these people meet online in these right wing online spaces. for many of the groups you do have to pay dues to become a card-carrying member, but there are people who sort of just became affiliated. in the oath keepers case, thomas caldwell was not a card-carrying member. nonetheless he joined them in their pursuit on january 6. he was acquitted of seditious conspiracy is but charged with other charges.

host: if you would like to join the conversation you can do so on our lines. democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. and independents, 202-748-8002. tarrio's attorney has vowed to appeal. do we know anything about what the grounds would be for appealing the conviction? guest: at this point we do not know much. they set on tuesday that they are definitely appealing and an appeal is coming soon. but with a trial this stacked there are a lot of different strings to pull before -- to get the trial before an appeals court and we do not know which path they will take. host: he said this in his -- in the case in the court. he said "changing the result of an election was not my goal." did he say what was his goal? guest: i think what he tried to

get across in his statement before the judge during his sentencing that he was a misguided patriot. somebody who had what he thought was the best interests for the country in mind and this was the best way he thought to go about he was staunch and thatd not intend to stop certification of t idce presented at trial d ulmately what convince the jury was that it was not true and he did engage in a plot to stop the certification of the 2020 election. before judge timothy kelly who oversaw the case, judge kelly said that while he was grateful that tarrio had apologized for some of the law enforcement that had been injured, he stopped short of taking responsibility for what he was actually convicted of by the jury. and that definitely played into his sentencing decision. host: how much of tarrio and these other leaders blaine trump

and point the finger at donald trump? guest: particularly in the proud boys case, that is what came up over and over again as a defense strategy. sotarr -- so tarrio's attorney said that donald trump inflames them, not the proud boys. his words and false claims of election fraud and his direction to be there and be wild in a december tweet motivated them to get there. we actually saw somewhat similar comments from prosecutors who said that you know, the false claims of election fraud did motivate the proud boys to go to the capitol, but ultimately they engaged in their own conspiracy. from both sides we saw the finger-pointing at donald trump. it is worth noting that in the aftermath we have not seen much distancing, so it appears it is

more a day defense strategy then a real change. host: one last question before we take calls, how do you think these trials have played out and how will that impact the trials of president trump? guest: more than anything this gives prosecutors a chance to figure out what worked or did not work with these juries. they can go back and see that three oath keepers in the first slate with steward rhodes were convicted of seditious conspiracy. what part of the stories that the jury did not buy. what does the government did not prove from its burden. i think that going into former president trump's trial, they will look back on those cases and figure out where there might be some holes that they need to patch. host: let us talk to callers. derek from georgia, -- dick, from georgia. independent. caller: good morning.

i was listening to red state radio the other day from noon until 2:00, and then i came in here and got on their podcast and they had one of the most unbelievable programs on, two hours. it is over two hours. it is about that trust is president trump was an hour late getting to the podium on january 6. and it shows all of these people at the capitol getting ready to riot. it was way before trump even got on the podium. and then it shows them putting on, they had boxes of maga hats and t-shirts. and someone in the capital laid all of these brand-new two by fours along the stairs approach. there were cases of water set out. this thing was set up.

somebody set this up, and you ought to hear these people getting ready to riot. and they are -- if they are patriots, well it was the last thing they were. these people are nuts. i never wore a trump or maga hat. the only way i would where one is that 70 gave me one. you ought to hear this stuff. it is all on this video that mccarthy will not release to the media. why won't they release those videos to the media? host: a couple of things. go ahead. guest: i will start by saying that there has been no evidence that there was any effort to sort of preplanned the capitol riots by the government. i think at a hearing the last month or the month prior christopher wray disavowed the

fact that the fbi or any government agency was involved so that point first. as for the fact that the former president was not there on january 6. we did sort of get a little bit of background into where he was at the white house, watching it unfold on television, and i am not sure how that will play into any future trials or how that will play into this case that special counsel jack smith is making about the efforts to subvert the 2020 presidential election. that is yet to be seen. host: he talked about the tapes that speaker mccarthy would have of the day. what are your thoughts on that? guest: i think everyone in the media would love to see those tapes, we are on the same page. where the issue is is that there have been some concerns about security. the capitol building needs to be

kept secure and there are many failures. i think they are trying to prevent that in the future. i think some of that is security concern and that is why we are getting a little bit of pushback. host: linda a democrat in spring hill, florida. caller: good morning, i might be a little late in the knowledge of things, but i hear about all of these charges that are coming down. i believe i heard that a state capitol police officer had gotten killed or injured from that. he died. who is kate -- who is paying for that officer's life and who is being charged with murder? who is going to pay the price for his life? guest: sure. multiple officers were injured and died on january 6. we also saw a number of law enforcement officers take their lives after the capitol attack.

we have not seen any defendants charged with murder. i do not think there has been any evidence coming to light to prove that one person was solely responsible for an individual death. i think that question has been brought up at many points and that's -- in these trials at the mob as a whole played a role in the loss of life that occurred. host: everett is in grand junction, colorado. republican. caller: hello. i was going to make a comment for your last gassed. -- guest. i will make a comment with this one here if you will bear with me. first of all, i was going to say that the word democracy is not in our declaration of independence or the constitution, or the confederation papers. it is not in there. and when it comes to the declaration of independence and why we have this hostility i

think in our country is because of what the declaration of independence as. if the government has committed many abuses. the only problem was we did not petition our government. we just riotted. and that is a sad thing. but it does say in the declaration of independence that we have a duty to try and change the government whether it is by vote or if they completely overpower the people of the country, what else are you going to do? host: you want to take that? guest: that is something we have heard from a lot of the january 6 defendants. the constitution says that if the government is overbearing the people should fight back. where there is a difference here and where the line is is that first of all the use of violence

and force. second of all, the fact that we have a president -- the fact that the -- would you mind repeating that point? i am losing my train of thought. host: he is talking about the concept that they are patriots and the government failed us, and they have the right. guest: i remember what i was going to say. the election was not stolen. we have been through lawsuits and we have heard from officials and states across the country. and so i think the effect of fighting back against the government was something that was lawful. that is where people have a bit of an issue. host: walter. washington, d.c., democrat. good morning. caller: good morning, ladies. my question and comment, the election was not stolen.

but the election was engineered for joe biden to win based on the twitter files when he showed what the f -- what the fbi did to suppress hunter biden stories. so they did interfere -- the fbi did interfere with the election. so let us not say it is on the up and up. with the january 6 defendants, the ones who committed the crime should be prosecuted. but torrio got a raw deal. as n in the district because he was banned for burnin bla lives matter flag. and that is unconsonal you should be allowed to come here, and also we also have to look at equal justice under the law on both sides. let us not forget that trumps inauguration day those anti-if came here and rioted and entered

d.c. police officers and all of them were found not guilty. let us not forget the three day siege of the white house where 180 police officers were injured. we had multiple insurrection since trump was in office and we overlooked it. that led to january 6. january 6 would not have happened had nancy pelosi did her job and fortified the capitol no -- capitol. we keep overlooking that the capitol was left open. host: let us take that, the concept of nancy pelosi failing to secure the capital -- capitol . guest: one of the misconceptions is that nancy pelosi was in charge of capitol police and should have been the person to direct them. that is not true. they have their own structure and report to a different person.

nancy pelosi was in charge of presiding over the house. and that was her role on that day. host: what about the calling of the national guard, how does that work? guest: on january 6 we had nancy pelosi and other lawmakers calling the former president and trying to get him to bring in the national guard. there is a significant delay to the national guard being sent and that call is made by the president. host: ocean city, new jersey. independent. that morning. caller: the leaders of the u.s. government in both parties are doing a poor job. but peacefully and nonviolently they can be replaced. the pen is mightier than the sword. if enough people wrote, called, faxed, tweeted, and peaceful protested we could get rid of the leaders. host: let us talk to willie in

texas. republican. caller: good morning. for the guest, i want to ask her if she got any of the evidence that showed exactly how tarrio and others planned the insurrection. it is funny how you would call it an attack. when all of the democrats are still calling it an insurrection when it is not really that. also on that, people believe what they saw in the 2020 election. you cannot deny what people saw on tv, in real time, and all the supporters that you see from the folks on trump's side are not necessarily on his side. they are hoping -- they are still carrying this black mark on the whole election process and they want to be able to just see it through.

one real quick thing. the national guard, president trump, former president trump asked nancy pelosi and the d.c. mayor, he let them know that the national guard is standing by. and he was ready. they turned it down. and that is the way it goes. host: who turned it down? caller: nancy pelosi in the d.c. mayor. host: turned down what? caller: turns down the deployment for the national guard. host: it is true -- is that true? guest: i do not believe it is true. host: let us talk to walter, in georgia. a democrat. caller: good morning, how are you doing this morning? host: good. caller: i have two quick and simple questions. what was the president doing for

180 seven minutes while they were attacking the capital bank -- capitol. and the second one might be off-topic. what did the president say to vladimir putin when they were in helsinki and did not allow an interpreter in the room with him? host: that is off the subject, but we will take the first one. guest: as to what the president was doing, we did get inside. earlier in the day he spoke on the ellipse. he went back to the white house and watched this unfold from there. he was, i believe to my knowledge, watching fox news and one of the white house rooms. we did not see him call into the national guard or take action until much later in the day. host: steve, pennsylvania. independent. guest: thank you -- caller: thank you for taking my call. there is a point that people say

the things that we are taking to court on this, 63 cases, but 60 of them were thrown out, and they said the people had no standing. those three cases they had no proof of anything. but since they had 60 cases out of 63 that the people had no standing they never got to take their case to court. do you have information on that? guest: sure. that is definitely true, a lot of cases where cases of purported election fraud taken to court. multiple judges reviewed those cases and ultimately decided that they did not have basis or some of them did play out and it was determined that there was no fraud. and that is how we got to now, where we have a pretty concrete basis of evidence showing that the election was not stolen. host: and john, sacramento,

california. democrat. caller: good morning. all this mess is nothing but just evilness and wickedness because of that one white man who got all of the privileges over everybody in the country just because he was white. if you would have been a black man doing any of this we would not have been talking about all of this. he would have been in jail before he started trying to change the constitution. all of you white folks at home i do not know what you think will happen one trump thing -- trump takes over. he will put you in concentration camps with all of you oswald is us. he does not want to do anything with poor people. don't you know those autocrats in russia do not care about us, the people down below. all they care about is the rich. and you white people voting for

this rich white people, they are going to put you right with us. host: let us talk to george in michigan. independent. good morning. caller: good morning. i think you need to revisit the comment you made about police officers dying on january 6. there were no police officers that died january 6. there was one officer that died a day or two later from a heart attack. you, young lady, made a comment a few minutes ago about nancy pelosi rejecting. you do not think nancy pelosi rejected the request. you, young lady are a liar. host: let us get a response. guest: yes. multiple law enforcement officers died on january 6. it is an unfortunate fact and something the country has to reckon with. host: and brian sicknick was one

of those who was killed. and that is all the time we have god. thank you so much for joining us. ella lee, "the hill" court reporter and you can find more of your writing on thehill.com. and coming up next we will return to our question that we had this morning about whether you are optimistic or pessimistic about democracy in the u.s.. you can start calling you now. be right back. ♪

oopipapa

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history, politics and more. you can watch it every sunday on c-span2 or online attv.org. 25 years of television for serious readers. >> a healthy democracy does not just look like this, it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work and citizens are truly informed and are on your screen. optimistic (202) 748-8000. here is the headline from the associated press, americans are widely pessimistic about democracy in the united states. here are the fs. over9% of the company --

country say democracy is not wowell in the united states compared with 10% who say working very well. at 40% only somewhat well. half say each of the political parties is doing a bad job of holding democracy, including 47% who say that about democrats and even more about republicans. we will go straight to the phones with william, little rock, arkansas. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: my name is willie. i am not optimistic about what is going to happen. if we don't start recognizing that we have a big problem as far as race is concerned we are going to have a race for. these people that want to put

politicians in arkansas back in again, if we don't get somebody in office to cool this racist stuff down, we are not going to have a country. host: rockford, illinois, kathleen. caller: i was pessimistic, republicans are making it difficult for voters to vote. the one day voting if they were to do that, they would need to give everyone the day off to go and vote. that would be the only fair way. secondly, like in texas, there were counties that had drop boxes that were only one per county in texas and also it was over an hour away for voters two

drop off their ballots. my second point is, everybody bashes the media and in some cases they are right, but also i think people need to expand their horizons and look at conservative sources, democratic sources. we don't have the days of walter cronkite anymore so you are going to have to find different sources and i try to look at both sides and make a determination. host: what are some of the sources you like? caller: reuters, pbs news hour, afp, a lot of times the sources that are in other countries are more open minded i would say about our politics and i just

think that people need to learn the difference between editorializing and straight news. host: and diego is, nelson, hello -- san diego is next, nelson, hello. caller: people call up and say this or that about democracy but obviously it is a democratic republic, it is said a government for the people and by the people. but you almost can't hear any quotes anymore about lincoln. people need to listen to his second inaugural address, martin luther king speeches, jfk

speeches, even reagan speeches to know what democracy is. the people who are saying we are not a democracy because they want trumpism. it has always been that way. the caller from louisiana said we haven't messed up since the civil war and the 14th amendment is bad. i am optimistic because i think the lincoln view of america will win. a progressive view of people getting more and more rights and less fascism, basically. host: leon is next in washington, d.c. caller: m pessimistic but in

another way, i am pessimistic that democracy and freedom requires constant vigilance, constant questioning of the status quo. it requires that we as a people do not dissolve into tribalism but understand that the freedom that guides us and makes us a great country requires that we give voice to the voiceless and requires that we stand up to people who would tear the fabric of our democracy apart. i am not a person who supported the former president and know would i ever be that because i spent too many years in the

military to accept everyone and all the iterations god has created. pessimism i see is the conservatories of democracy people like jordan, marjorie taylor greene, to hear the silence against the bigotry that has been displayed in our country by our so-called leaders is just and probably -- appalling. host: this is a statement that has been put out by chuck grassley, grassley and durbin introduced designating 2020 24 as the year of democracy. senators wrestling and durbin are the former and current chair

of the senate judiciary committee. this is a quote by senator grassley, our founders had a tremendous foresight in building a government that champions idealistic differences while uniting us under common principles. in doing so, theyass the baton to future generations, taxing every american with preserving the foundation they laid. this serves as a reminder that we should constantly be working together to maintain our democratic values in ways to get and small. we must never take our democracy for granted. " by senator durbin, our democracy is only as strong as our commitment to relentlessly pursue its ideals of liberty and justice for all. what your thoughts are and how optimistic or pessimistic you are. pat in texas. caller: good morning.

it is the previous lady from the hill still there? host: i am sorry, it is just me. caller: it is fine, you are great. grassley wanted to substitute himself in for pence's role in the verification, that is how dishonest he is. the republican party has not recovered that they lost the white house to a black man. you can almost see what has been going on the last eight or 10 or 12 years about the way america has been hating because the republicans lost to a black man and it is not going to get any better. they are basically domestic terrorists and we tolerate them eat yesterday it said the only way they will win back the white house is not your ballots.

these are people trying to run america. we needed to wake up to these terrorists. host: let's hear from bill in norcross, georgia. caller: to make a statement, i am very pessimistic because of what your guest from the hill just said and you cut colors off who gave the correct information. i wish you as the moderator would fact check this woman and find out that it was actually nancy lucy and the mayor of the city of washington determined the national guard could be called up. this is why people are frustrated because people like you don't fact check the people who come on your set and spread misinformation and propaganda. it is unfortunate that a person

like you continues to be on tv and is too lazy -- host: bill, here is the associated press that says this -- pelosi did not block the national guard from the capitol on january 6. the claim is 50 the house speaker blocked the national guard from coming. that is false according to the associated press, as a speaker of the house, pelosi does not direct the national guard. as the capitol came under attack, she and the senate majority leader called for assistance, including the national guard. i would encourage you to take a look at apnews.com and other fact checkers that have discussed that same claim. maryland -- maryland, illinois, form -- warm. -- marilyn, illinois, good

morning. caller: when biden got into my hosts got restored and make feelings about democracy because he is the eternal optimist. young people are coming up fighting for democracy. they came and got into their office and that gives me all of the hope in the world that our democracy will be safe. i hope you have a lovely day. host: mike is next in huntington, indiana. caller: good morning. say i am kind of a pessimist and an optimist, because once everybody talks about social security going rogue, but it is

not social security. there is welfare and food stamps. these people won't wake up. there is too much power in the government. they need to cut down on these government agencies and i don't know why they would redact everything at the department of justice, because we send those people in to find out the truth. if one lies or don't tell the truth or spreads rumors, then they should go to jail for 25 years, period. no chance of getting out, not whether he is a democrat or a republicans.

host: let's talk to deborah in naples, florida. caller: i am calling because i am pessimistic because we don't have free press. have not began to news. the woman who is just on from the hill was alive. brian sicknick died on january seventh from a heart attack not from the january 6 attack. we don't have a free press we don't have a republic. host: we will get you more information about officer sicknick's death. it was not that people died from -- on september -- on january 6 but as a result. next caller. caller: you are a great

moderator. don't worry about those people. lady from the hill was spouting misinformation for sure. i watched the senate hearings on c-span and they said nancy pelosi and the capitol police had the resources they needed and they didn't use them. i just wanted to say that democracy is being run by the corporations and that is why we need to get back to a republic. host: and patrick, pittsburgh, pennsylvania. caller: i am profoundly pessimistic about the reality, because the united states has now degenerated into a political

monoculture. they are even announcing what they are doing, like announcing in the wall street journal in february 2017 that the united states government will require all u.s. social media platforms to eliminate controlled content. the announcement, it was like the oxygen was sucked out of the plane because this men's that the constitution is now off,, at what took place instantly after that? we had for the first time in the history of this nation a president being censored. they censored the president of the united states, followed by a huge change with the search engines that were all directed for the dystopias news system which is nothing but a

propaganda arm and has nothing whatsoever to do with the integrity of our democracy. you want to know how profound it is, look at cnn just did, they produced a poll joint nikki haley up front. it is a light it is designed to heard republicans just as they did when they aired at the town hall meeting with donald trump host: -- donald trump. host: not cut you all but i think that was showing a matchup between president biden and each of the republican candidates and only showed nikki haley they six-point advantage. she was the only one that would beat president biden about the margin of error. caller: when you turn around and

utilize the townhall meeting as a representation to urge republicans, push them in a direction, you are directly interfering in the election and what we are now witnessing is the final solution to our democracy. i don't care what takes place, they would never allow donald trump to walk back in to the presidency. they will do anything to stop him. host: cbs news.com, dr. brian sicknick died of natural causes after defending the capitol on january 6. he was previously believed to have died from injuries sustained in the riot. he died from a stroke. chief medical examiner's office said in the report citing acute brainstem and there are beller -- cerebelar infarcts.

he was sprayed with a chemical substance outside the capitol and he collapsed and died the following evening. armand is in lakeland, florida. caller: thank you, c-span. i am optimistic and pessimistic. i feel that democracy is still working. i see what is going on is corporations buying both bodies. corporations own us. our system of government, until we take the money out of government we will never have our democracy back the way it is. that is what i have to say and i thank you. host: care is a text from jason in topeka, kansas.

i am pessimistic. every time a right-leaning pundit goes live they criticize and say america is terrible as a means to regain power. a gerrymander and try to submit -- suppress voting. it is the will of the -- if the will of the people were honored, we would take the money out of affair. ricky in brooklyn, maryland. caller: i am pessimistic. the republicans now and they lose claim they were cheated. i am from d.c. originally. d.c. is not a state. only the president of the united states can send the national

guard. he didn't ask or requested, he decided because it is not state. i am very pessimistic. host: kerry in milwaukee, form -- good morning. caller: as i understand it, the host of the span is not allowed to give their opinions on things and not supposed to spend time correcting people, even though we all realize that from both the right and left we get thoughts of disinformation which unfortunately bums a lot of us out because we feel country is even more divided. i am optimistic in the short run but pessimistic about democracy in the long run, only because everyone is tied up of what is

going on here and i pay attention to global economics and politics and there is a decline in democracy around the world and it is under attack around the world. so eventually we may be taken over by china i am sorry to say. i don't know if it will be in my lifetime but it probably will happen and at that time whether they will allow us to stay a democracy i honestly don't know. also people have pointed out we don't have free press from the stance that we have an unbiased press. there are free to speak anything we want whether it is true or not but if it's all paid for. people should realize that most of the mainstream media is owned by corporations which have profits as their motive. they're not free to just give out facts. a lot of them are supposed to

give opinions on one side or the other. on the internet, there is no regulation so people can say what they want. the hostess pointed to an associated press article that someone should be for validation. i was trained as a journalist in the early 1980's. and until about six months ago i almost had a nervous breakdown and i went to the ap and i caught them in a mistruths. when i was in journalism school, they were our primary source of true information. now they are corporate owned and not being known as a totally independent anymore. i honestly don't know where to go to find the truth on a lot of things. i listen to 10 different news sources. try to listen to all sources, the left and right and figuring the truth will be somewhere in the middle but i really don't know where to go for the truth

anymore. host: let's get mary in harrisburg. caller: i am more hopeful than optimistic. i think more chaos is to come but eventually the american idea will survive. i would like to say something about nancy pelosi and the national guard. donald trump did offer a few days before january 6 to send the national guard to have them available at the capitol for his rally and nancy pelosi, and mitch mcconnell supposedly because the two together to the capitol police and can request the national guard, but apparently they didn't believe that anything violent would

happen so they turned down or she turned down if you want to make it just about her, but she turned down the offer of the national guard. however, when it all came down the requested, nancy pelosi and mitch mcconnell, requested the then mayor of d.c. to get the national guard but at that time only donald trump was the only one who could call out the d.c. national guard. the mayor cannot call them out. so they asked the mayor to call out the d.c. national guard and he agreed but it took 45 minutes to do it, allowing all this to happen because his military or advisers or whoever stonewalled the request. so the national guard did not show up in time and they went to other states around to see if

they would send their national guard but nancy pelosi did originally refuse the offer. host: that is the last call for this segment. coming up on washington journal, franklin foer discusses his book “the last politician: inside joe -- about the first two years of biden's presidency. we will be right back.. ♪ >> this fall, watch c-span's new series, books that shaped america. join us as we embark on a captivating journey and partnership with the library of

congress which first created new books that shaped america lists to explore key works of literature from american history. the book's have provoked thought won awards, led to significant , changes and are still talked about today. hear from experts who will shed light on the impact of these works and virtual journeys across the country tied to the celebrated authors and their unforgettable books. among the books, "common sense" by thomas payne, "huckleberry finn" by mark twain, "their eyes were watching god" by zora neale hurston, and "free to choose," by milton and rose friedman. watch our series, books that shaped america, starting monday september 18 at c-span, c-span now, or online at c-span.org. ♪ >> book tv every sunday on

c-span two features leading authors discussi their latest nonfiction books. the atlant sff writer franklin foer look back at the first two years of the biden administration with this book "the last politician." then former vice president mike pence this book so help me god and 10 p.m. eastern care of fitzpatrick the future of education in america with her book the death of public school. she's interviewed by mariah balingt. find a full schedule on you program guide or watch online every time at booktv.org. ♪ >> a healthy democracy does not

just look like this. it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work, citizens truly informed, a republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word, from the nation's capital to wherever you are because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. franklin foer, the author of the book called “the last politician: inside joe biden's white house and struggle for america's future.” it is about the first two years of the biden presidency. tell us what prompted you to write this book. guest: it's is going to sound uninspiring but my publisher asked me to write the book and have never done an insider,

political account like this. i'm a staff writer at the atlantic so i do political journalism -- it is my thing but i never invested all the time to understand presidency over an extended period of time from the inside. she presented the idea to me, her argument was the biden people are coming in, the middle of a pandemic, with the prospect of an economic collapse, and they are inheriting the government that has been in disrepair. it would be fascinating to see what happens when -- will the people come in to try to conquer the problems and whether there was succeed or not. i was not to somebody who thought much of a joe biden. i kind of thought he was a bit of a blowhard. what was fascinating watching everything up front that my opinions of joe biden started to

shift as i observed him and we got to the 100 day mark. you get people to talk to you. is he really of an illustration they are cautious -- in the beginning of and the administration they are cautious but then you get to the 100 day point and he proposes the build back better agenda and i thought this is the story now. i told my publisher is going to pass which i did not truly believe but gave me a way to extend by down -- my deadline and i got to the end of the first year and build back better in ruins because mention had to pull the plug -- manchin had pulled the plug. my publisher said go another year or so to get to the end of the second year which is in american politics the two period of the beginning of the

presidency when everything happens. i give you a long-winded. host: you did but i wanted to ask you how open was the white house to you. were they forthcoming? were you able to get what you needed? we able to talk to the president himself? guest: it is part of the job being patient because the beginning people do not want to talk. you have to keep showing up. when the events and, you move onto the next think and if you have the opportunity to tell the story. i was able to talk to the president twice and off the record conversations with groups economists -- columnists the came in to meet with him and it was helpful. host: what is the idea behind the title? what does last politician mean? guest: we live in this time people are disdainful of

politics and politicians. the last two presidents before biden, obama and trump, campaigned as people against the system. joe biden you cannot mistake for anything but politician since it is been his profession were so many decades. his idea about how to save america democracy is you have to prove politics, persuasion, dealmaking is still the best way to get things done. it feels like maybe we are at the end of an era. not so many people who share his faith still. host: there are people believe bipartisanship is a weakness. guest: on both sides is a widespread perception. host: i want to show you an excerpt from your book and have you comment on it. you say this, in the story of joe biden a pattern keeps reasserting itself. after he is the mess as passes

time, written off becausof his doddering detachment from the zeitgeist, he pulls off his greatest successes. he shocks those who only think they know him. guest: we see this constantly. biden underestimated by people his own side who are his friends and his enemies. we moments were his political career seems to be over. he will never run for president again. then he actually wins. even in the course of the story about the first two years, there is this moment at the end of the first year where i thought he was headed towards jimmy carter presidency where he was going to go down in history as a failure and then he passed all of this legislation. host: reminder to our viewers if you would like to call in and ask a question we have got this -- our guest until the end of the program. you can call by party

affiliation. democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001. independents, (202) 748-8002. you can enter and -- you can interact with us by text or social media. the biden administration starts in the middle of covid. talk about the challenges surrounding that. guest: donald trump made these investments in operation warp speed which had invested this money into private companies to develop the vaccines. the first vaccine clinically successful was pfizer's vaccine. pfizer had not taken any operation warp speed money so i did not benefit from their relationship with the government. the biden people come in and need to find whatever the plan is to get shots in arms and they search across bureaucracy for this plan.

it turns out it does not exist. on the flight they have to ramp up production of the vaccine and come up with a plan for distribution. which is very complicated so six months later it is a miracle government that people were able to walk into the neighborhood pharmacies without an appointment and get a shot that will save their lives. host: i want to ask about immigration. another exrpfrom the book. you say a polling showed biden had everyeason to feel great about his standing with one exception. he was getting terrible marks for his handling of immigration which meant the press would inevitably gravitate to the subject. the issue happened to be the place where he was most ou step this evolving partiesha were trajectory but winning the democratic nomination required biden to commit himself to a wholesale reversal of trump immigration policy. guest: the pandemic did a lot to

scramble the patterns of migration. there was a numerous pressure as biden was coming into office on order which was because for reasons that had nothing to do with the president and also this perception that the president would, new president more welcoming to migrants. you had the surge of unaccompanied minors at the border. one of the first big crises and some think where they do not handle it especially well at first because they were plans drawn up for dealing with this crisis because it was predictable but somehow they gotten loss course of transition. you had these images from centers in border patrol centers in texas we had children sleeping on floors. terrible images. biden who is centrist on the issue is forced to deal with this and deal with the fact that he was getting pressure vote from the left and from the right

-- both from the left and from the right. host: he gave vice president harris the task of looking at migrants coming and addressing the root causes. how did she get that assignment? what was she able to accomplish? guest: being vice president but one of the hardest jobs in washington, because it comes with this since you are very powerful person, next in line, but it is a punchline regarding the person waiting around. one of the hardest things as being a former vice president president and obama had given biden disarmed a building with central america to address the migration crisis so he turns around and gives it to harris to deal with central america. host: did she want it? guest: i think she did at first because it is not the same as dealing with actual border itself. it was not a part of her purview.

does a diplomatic assignment. -- it was a diplomatic assignment. some think the president consider to be important so initially she did. over time she came to dislike the assignment. host: it is hard to address the root causes of migration because you're looking at poverty, crime, the effects of climate change. guest: the other countries and sometimes you're looking at corrupt governments getting them to abide by policy is good for the u.s. but not necessarily beneficial to them. host: what did you find out about the relationship between biden and harris? guest: they begin in the middle of covid. it is a strange thing because normally residents and vice presidents do a lot of travel at the beginning of an administration but neither of them were traveling so they would end up going with one another to the same meetings all the time. there are certain parallels between the president and the vice president.

they share similar source of the securities. biden's securities is going back to plagiarism scandal. he does not like to look like he does not have full command of the material he has. he does not like to look like he's being force fed information. the vice president historic first and i think she's worried about making a mistake that could redound against people who follow in their path. they both people who over prepare for public presentations and tend to ask the same questions in meetings, whether it is because they spent this initial time with one another or not, but i will add biden's sees everything through his experience dealing with barack obama. obama needed biden to fill holes in his resume. biden uses this term refers to

the vice president as opposed to my vice president which obama way of referring to biden which really wrinkled. host: want to talk foreign policy and we will start with russia. here's an excerpt from that. asiden's retrospective opinion, the obama administration had erred by atuitously thumbing his nose at russia. his old boss refer to the old quarter were -- old cold war rival as a regional power. guest: when biden comes to office, i have reporting about a call he received from vladimir putin out of the blue that surprises him because it is not on the schedule. he had to make a decision about how quickly to return the phone call. in his theory was that, putin

was someone who would cause him trouble and the best thing he could do is to clearly telegraph what sanctions or punishments that would be for that behavior, but also he felt putin was in a secure guy who felt that russia was this great nation being disrespected so he needed to be able to show him i get that. i will treat russia with respect. his argument to his staff which is staffed with a him to wait to return the call, he said when the leader of one of the world's nuclear powers call you, you have to take the call. host: how would you assess his handling of the russia ukraine war? guest: i think it is a very difficult job. i think he has done it exceedingly well because one year ago or a couple years ago, the world was indifferent to autocracy.

he had to both rally allies who had breached fillings from the trump war and rally public, and i just u.s., but the u.s.. but there's a lot of self-sacrifice the american public has made on behalf of the calls. higher prices at the pump because of the russian invasion. there is the global economy slowed. it is an act of solidarity and i'm not sure we would have gotten there absent presidential leadership. host: what do you make of president biden's handling of the economy and his poll numbers about how americans feel about it? guest: inflation is a special type of economic pain because it registers every time you go to the store, every time you fill the car up with gas, that really does stick. the first decision he made as president was about the american

rescue plan which was the stimulus and tended to save the economy at a moment where it was starting to teeter. as a promise in the georgia special election, he agreed there would be these checks directly delivered to each american household under a certain economic level. those checks had two effects. he was running the economy hot so there would be for employment because in joe biden's view work is essential for dignity and he would rather have more people in their jobs even at the price of that was the economy slightly inflationary. this is going to be a debate we will have, how much do the american rescue plan contribute to inflation, how much was it a product pandemic supply chain shocks, russian invasion of

ukraine, other structural problems. host: how much this is working class roots and form his policies? guest: i think it is at the center of his psyche so if you are a democrat of a certain age, the party has changed on you. it went from being union dominated to working-class to having an elite that comes from ivy league schools and meritocracy. biden was always an outsider with those police because of the way he talks with his stories that are always so folksy and anecdotes he tells over and over again. he felt out of step. the iv leaders would roll their eyes at -- ive league would roll their eyes at him and he knew so he had a chip on his shoulder he always had and i think it meant

he was prepared to go in different directions from other people around him. host: we have a question for you on x. how much better of an economy with president biden have a fake democrat joe manchin and monkey democrat kyrsten sinema had not gotten in the way of build back better? guest: i am not sure we would have a better economy but we would have this robust expansion of the safety net. it is really amazing to go back to the summer of 2021. you think about how close the country was to passing this 3.5 trillion dollars spending package that would've had universal pre-k, subsidized daycare, eldercare that really would have, in the most significant, renovation of the american buffer states. -- welfare states. host: ryan in illinois,

independent. caller: good morning., democratic-socialist. all citizens of u.s., constitutionally must be considered innocent until proven guilty. a tainted jury pool is unacceptable. president john f. kennedy -- everyone has the right to see all the roles and to call character witnesses and know their rights. , democratic-socialist and resident donald trump's views are opposite to mine yet he must be presume innocent until proven guilty just as i and any other citizen of the u.s. of america. host: ok. any comment there? anything about the relationship or lack thereof between biden and trump? guest: they're not interacted heartily at all.

he comes into office, the first think he sees when the cousins of the oval office is a letter trump left for him. host: what is in it? guest: nobody knows. he refers to it as being surprised elite grace issues and then tucked it -- he refers to it as being surprisingly gracious and he takes it away. one of his primary jobs was to get the unvaccinated to accept the vaccine. trump, when the biggest proponents of the vaccine because he set everything in motion. he consider listing trump in persuasion and pain to get the unvaccinated but they dealt with the republican pulser luntz who has done focus groups to accept the job. ab. he relies into would backfire -- people realize it will backfire so they never really

pursuit that. host: destiny in texas, democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. my question is about global poverty. i love how you mentioned the economy and what biden is doing. what are your thoughts and views on global poverty and how you think help to solve the economy? guest: not global poverty as so much as american poverty. one the extraordinary things that happens in 2021 is that the childhood poverty rate was cut in half. there were all of these tax credits and subsidies that emerged from the american rescue plan. it was one of the most unexpected developments. we do not think of this country and our politics now as being on the cusp of doing something as big as cutting childhood poverty

rate in half, but we did it. i think it is a shame that we let a lot of those programs expire and allowed the childhood poverty rate to spike back up. host: melissa in lake charles, louisiana. independent. caller: good morning. i read a few excerpts from your book online and it was interesting, but i have to admit, i am an independent voter, but i would not vote for jill biden and probably not for donald trump either but between the two i would not vote for joe biden. i'm interested to know if he told you that he was afraid of appearing stupid, that is the word to use, or was that just something you gleaned from his behavior when he was hired a also, does he want the 10% from

your book sales as the big guy? guest: i think there is zero evidence that jill biden has done anything corrupt. i think there's allegations of that and it is something republicans are pushing but i've not seeing anything that makes that allegation. she's asking this question and it is a very interesting one about technique which is i made a big psychological observation about resident biden and she's asking how i came to that conclusion. it is not something he would say or tell me in fact it is a character trait so my job as a journalist who is trying to understand a president and presidency is to try to understand the mind of the president. one thing i have done is i've talked to a lot of his friends. i have gone back and i've read

everything written about him. based on that i start to make some sort of psychological assessment. what of the great things about biden he is the subject of wonderful classic book. would it takes by richard ben cramer which came out in 1990's about the men who ran for president in 1988 and he spent all this time with biden and i read it as a young journalist and it was one of the most exciting works of political journalism i always read. for me, my understanding always goes back to the great richard kramer. host: hank is next in south carolina, a republican, good morning. caller: thanks. i want to note you really believe all those stories that joe said about different things.

i think most of it is just made up if not lies. host: like what? were you talking about, specifically? caller: the one about his house fire in delaware when he was in hawaii, comparing that to people that lost everything, that lost their families, their house, everything. he just up there and compares that to a little ole kitchen fire. he is always talking about his father. every time. every speech he makes my dad said this, my dad said that. listen to joe you would think his that was in there with washington, lincoln, and reagan. i get tired about listening to stories about his dad.

i did not know what his that did the i'd never heard any other president gets up there every speech talk about what their that did. host: let's start with the fire response. guest: i would say i do not think it is that uncommon for men and women to valorize their fathers and to revered them and to talk about them in that way. but joe biden is also -- i like to think of him as an irish storyteller. there is a little bit of -- in his stories that tend to get better with time or 10 to evolve and i do not quite -- or tend to evolve and he someone who kinda gets lost in his stories and set every time he tells them they inflate in size which is not the same thing as saying he is a liar. it is just i think he is somebody likes a good tell.

host: he asked about the maui fire response. guest: yeah, i think that was just a case of biden speaking. host: i want to ask about people out from afghanistan and your book. even as the administration pull is improvise feet a logistics, andppssion took hold of the moment that it was reacting slowly. what sound is that the toughest crit emerg n from conservative media but from calmness and venerable reporters at by this inner circle t thick of the crisis, heed. biden did not have time to voraciously look at the news, but he was well aware of the tough coverage. we are getting killed he would admit. it is frustrated him to no end.

guest: this was the toughest part of his presidency. they felt anticipate how quickly the chaos with dissent on kabul. how quickly the government would collapse. as that happens, this is the moment where criticism rains down on him from all sides. when he things i came to admire about biden was that he was responsible for the failure at kabul airport on some level. but he never backed down from the decision to leave from afghanistan. he never cast the blame in other directions. there were people praying for him to make some sort of sacrificial offering to fire and aid, to cast the blame on the intelligence agencies, and he never did that. host: franklin in washington dc,

independent. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. i am interested in the book. i've never heard of it. i will check it out. i wonder if you have thoughts to the idea the last politician and his approach to politics. how he carries themselves and conducts himself but the rest of the country has moved against that. i imagine it is the point of your book. i wonder if you have thoughts about he is going to whether this upcoming campaign in that dichotomy. having to run against personal tax, things are always a part politics were getting more unhinged and more personal, the things about his son. i would not weigh in on hunter biden but they'll talk about his

age, they will make them sound unfit. it is always been a part of politics but in your observations and your coverage, is joe biden equipped to answer those attacks? political strategy for that? in 20 campaign things were different when running against a psychopath. wanting to impeach. we had covid. joe biden was the emergent winner of the primary. they're going to have this to hammer on these things that seem outside of traditional politics. how do you think he will handle that? guest: all right. thank you for checking out my book. i wanted to go to each part sen. lee:. on the question of the last politician, he is a very

psychological guy. everyone talks about his up at the end what you can see when he's deals with kevin mccarthy or susan collins or foreign leaders whether it is vladimir putin, with his good at doing is extending the empathy to the people he is sitting across so he can think about their psychological makeup. what are their political self interests. what are their emotional baggage do they bring to this conversation. there was an incident with the turkish president where he goes to him and he says i know you got to go out there and announce me right now. go out there and do whatever you want to do, say whatever you want to say but come back here and let's cut a deal. i think the same happened with kevin mccarthy during the debt ceiling negotiations where you got mccarthy the guy who was still out of the white house to

talk to the press want to look like he was owning the process because he knew mccarthy needed that, but when they got into the room, he was able to eat his lunch on the substance of negotiations. host: kathy in florida, democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. this is kathy from the stupid state. we do not appreciate joe biden. this man has done a lot more for us than anybody has for a number of years. i was leaning independent for a while. i am back being a democrat. the things we have been putting up with, the donald trump. he practically dismantled the government. joe biden trying to put it together with band-aids. no one gives them credit for it.

everything is his fault. everything is about his son. all we know about donald trump. come on. how many indictments in up to now? 40? it is unbelievable people still buy this. i think there is very small group of the maga that do still believe him but nobody to replace him and they know it. they cannot get that anger and miscible this they have out there that he provides. that is what they go for. i am 72. i will tell you it's got me baffled. 11 months a bunch of old people and believe me -- i live amongst a bunch of old people and believe me -- i wish people would give joe biden credit.

stop being so nasty. it is so misplace. this guy is off to the g20 summit. his wife is sick. if anything you know, he loves his wife. guest: he also loves foreign policy. i think there is part of the biden presidency that is underappreciated which is as a matter of substance, i think you could argue he has been transformational. for generations, democratic parties presidents were essentially in sync with republicans about the nature of economics they were differential to markets, kind of indifferent to the purpose of monopoly, not warm to unions. biden has gone in another direction where because of the ira, where do industrial policy in this country where we are making significant public

investment in manufacturing. we have maintained and betrayed policies that donald trump put in place -- we have maintained the trade policies donald trump put in place. investments into the semi conductor industry into the clean energy industry and we are seeing the most profound, unexpected capital investments in manufacturing we have seen in several generations. host: why do you think his popularity does not reflect, all the things you're saying are his successes? guest: i think part of it is age. because of the way he walks, the way he talks, it is hard for people to accept the idea he is an energetic politician. i think he has walt himself off in ways not terribly useful.

when joe biden talks, there is always the possibility of a headline rather than accept that as cost of doing business, he does not appear as at many press conferences. i think the public does not have this window into his mind or his thinking. then inflation which is just this type of thing -- host: what will happen during the campaigning of the election? the last election was during covid and he was isolating and did not do a lot of public appearances but campaigning is grilling. even for very young people. guest: i think i share your curiosity about how that will play out because he has to do it. there'll be debates.

there will be rallies. iglesias writes a column on sub stack said something the other day on twitter. that part of the critique of joe biden is that he is just not a good television character and i think there is profound truth to that. in fact, i think if people can see him up close, they would see he is this very human fellow who makes mistakes with you talks, but also has a worldview and has this grasp of the material and a distance of how things fit together -- a sense of how things fit together. on one side he does not have energy to go out and campaign as he did 20 years ago, on the others, i think there is wisdom that comes with experiencing,

the best part of joe biden you can see the way in which that wisdom translates into political practice. host: tony in marin -- ohio. republican. caller: i wanted to ask a question. i heard some of the comments. it is not joe biden's age, this competency. yes, they are hiding him. i do not understand how anybody can think he can run a foreign national. we just had 13 service members and i listen to the parents talk. we'll talk about empathy. looking at his watch. the parents talk. they're not political. it was disgusting.

20 minutes from here this boy was killed. empathy, i do not think so. only think he knows us to give money to people, our money, college tuition. i did not go to college. if i want to go to college and not have any money, i guess there are things i can do. i can join the service. want to join the service anymore? i cannot believe what is running the service. what policies he has. ukraine, giving money because i think they have dirt on joe biden. china flying a balloon around anywhere doing nothing. he is a disgrace to us. i will vote for donald trump. they want, anyone can say anything they want. until they prove anything, there is joe biden's with documents. host: there is a lot there. guest: as it relates to foreign

policy, he has shifted the frame that he is the find everything as a struggle for global democracy against authoritarianism. strategically the goal is to reorient thanks to the challenge of china -- reorient to the challenge of china. his goal of getting out of afghanistan was to take away this think can cite resources away from china, it was fighting the last war and to focus on this next thing. then russia invades ukraine. it is not totally unexpected. we had incredible intelligence about what russians were planning and we began to plan for that as early as october 2021. in the end, his foreign policy, if you step back is really about

this shift of attention. it is a difficult thing to pull off. he wants to put pressure on china to contain china, to reduce economic dependence on china, at the same time, we do not want their relationship with china to become adversarial that the military heats up. we are worried about china invading taiwan. the skillful think he is done in is turned up the heat without letting it get too hot. host: let's talk to an independent in colorado. ray, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i hope you are having a good morning. i'm an affiliate with the libertarian party. when it comes it immigration, i would open the border tomorrow.

that aside, mayorkas has been in front of house and senate committees many times over the years. whenever someone has asked him for any statistics he goes to his bullet point response -- boilerplate point response, i did not have numbers in front of me. your three of the biden administration and he's about to finish up his his full second fiscal year. how do you think this lack of preparedness with mayorkas will reflect on the presidency? guest: i do not actually know -- i do not know what he is talking about. my lack of expertise on the subject. host: juanita in ohio, cincinnati. good morning. democrat. caller: good morning. i'm going to buy your book. guest: thank you so much. caller: i wanted to make a

comment about the young lady who said something earlier in the broadcast about mr. biden sounding her looking stupid. i am 72 and i will tell you what mr. trump did that was stupid. underestimated the power of african-american women. made two mistakes. when he called miss amoroso a dog. we took note. the second time was during the dispute of the younger man taking the knee. he called the boys who did that sob's. we are the ones who put the fire under the democratic party

to get biden elected and will do it again because the republican party and overlook. when he said that about miss amoroso, republican party and the whites out there and the lady from ohio, they have no idea of the ripples it cost. y'all have a good day. guest: as it relates to the president's relationship to black women, i would say one of the most found parts of his legacy will be the appointment of ketanji brown jackson which i go into the detail of the stories of how she got paid. the politics of it where complicated because the president's relation ship with joe manchin was broken at that point. manchin had another favorite candidate but in the end biden was able to work with with

republicans to make sure he had the votes to get ketanji brown jackson confirmed to the supreme court. i think her initial decisions have reflected a justice who is able to distant -- dissent in a powerful way. host: john in illinois, republican. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm glad you wrote this book on the biden. guest: thank you. caller: i think you expose a little bit of what we are all seeing. you said earlier he does not like -- he is not doing his usual press conferences or take questions with the public. we do not really know. because of that we do not really know about joe biden and how he feels about things. but i can tell you we do know about joe biden. we conceive ourselves with he's become -- can you see for

ourselves what he has become physically, mentally. i think he's protected so the country does not see how weak he is. i'm interested. you said -- i think you said, i'm curious why are you not curious -- have you watched what mr. comer had brought to the public? i know if he did not watch any fox, you probably do not know that, but this suspicious activity reports, the offshore accounts. 10% for joe biden. for the big guy. i'm curious. why you are not curious about that? guest: have watched the comer hearings nesting conjecture but i have not seen the hard evidence there. that would be my answer. it is one of the interesting

things about away a book like this on -- unrolls. there is strange bipartisan fascinations in my book that fox has done a lot despite my book, new york post to cite the book, i think because it is the first book about these two years that there is this curiosity about how it all happens. people who read a book like this find evidence to confirm whatever their beliefs are to begin with, which is inevitable. that is the way the mind works. that is the way we consume information. i do not think there's anything wrong with it, but it is a gratifying think to see the ways -- the reporting gets picked over and analyzed by people on

both sides. host: david, myrtle beach, south carolina. independent. good morning. caller: good morning. i am an independent so i hold both parties with equal disdain. i think people make the mistake of wanting to make this about personalities but i want to go back to democratic base before the election and i think we need to realize the democratic party platform has been completed. they promise open borders. we have 6 million illegal people here on welfare with benefits. the consequences we have these people overwhelming the cities in the schools. joe promised to be the most progressive which i think he is completed because now we have a supreme court judge who cannot define the difference between men and women. we have men playing in will miss

ports. they promise to eliminate fossil fuels which they have done. they stop drooling and pipelines and now we see we depleted our petroleum reserves and gas prices are all-time high create reimagine the police. when crime is rampant everywhere. my issue is that the world is a dangerous place. we are people declared war on us and we are spending our time worried about defending what the definitions of eight men and a woman is. we are vulnerable. we have spy balloon's flying over the country and republicans and democrats talk about things, but no one ever does anything. i think there is a world focus completely on destroying our country. i think they are doing a good job of it. guest: i just hate to hear someone talk about the world

because that evokes historically terrible images, host: dylan in clarkston, washington. democrat, good morning. caller: good morning. i am 30. i have been voting democrat since i can vote. i usually vote blue. but 2016 and 2020 i voted for sanders in primary. i think most people my age follow that logic. if you want my honest opinion, i am more of a socialist who thinks working should own music production, but i understand that is a -- own the means of production but i understand it is a longshot cycle with what is pragmatic. when of the biggest issues i see with my credit party -- democratic party is it is about 2016.

democrats think they have this in the bag. intellectuals about things they did not resonate with working people in the country. you can talk about inflation numbers all day. it is true. biden has flown inflation down. that is not translate into anything real in the minds of people who live on the ground. as long as working people in the country are not seeing the benefits of these things, no one is ever going to associate anything with that. i think democrats should let the republicans go because listen to every republican voter on here, they are nuts. host: let's get a response. guest: there's a lot to what he just said. about the fact that people do

not see the benefits do not understand benefits of bidenomics policies. even in terms of the contrast he just describing between the two parties has been biden chatterjee in -- by this strategy in 2020 two and i suspect the strategy into 22024 that it is a referendum on his presidency so much as a test between him and trumpism. host: kimberly republican in arizona. hello. caller: if your book was free, i would not take it. what planet are you on? joe biden has done nothing for this country but destroy it. it is unbelievable. the difference between trump and biden. biden has been a politician for years and years.

he has done nothing but make this country the worse it is ever been. what are you not seeing? what is he? do, joe biden, to see he is which is totally corrupt. my family worked for the oil in pennsylvania. i live in arizona. i'm a border state. it is frightening over here. i cannot go down to tucson because it is discussing with the illegal immigrants. mayorkas says during hearings it is insane considering the position you are holding. the lies right out of his mouth in congress. guest: i know there are millions of people operated at the border. we do not -- millions of people apprehended at the border. we do not have open borders.

we are overwhelmed. our asylum policies are broken and there is a need to reform them but it is not -- what is happening now is legal. it is the system. you cannot unilaterally declare our immigration system, immigration laws should be suspended because we live in democracy and are certain procedures. host: grace in denver, colorado. independent. good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: my question is kinda about -- i know you talked on the russia ukraine conflict. i was wondering what you think about biden's approach to alleviating poverty and for the security in ukraine as a result of the war. guest: we are getting tremendous amount of aid to ukrainians,

military aid and humanitarian assistance to ukrainians. the sheer amount of money that is flowed to ukraine is pretty incredible, whether you agree with it or you do not agree with it. not very many antecedents in history that show u.s. acting in this way, outside of world war. host: jim in west virginia. democrat. hi. caller: good morning. i want to offer commentary. with what other people are saying. and it feels to me and probably too many people like there is no respect for decent humane leadership anymore. i feel as if republicans have had their minds poisoned against descent, humane leadership.

for the time trump was introduced to us as a candidate, it is like he launched into this overhaul of american mindset and it is not a nice overhaul. it is not pleasant or decent. you talk about any topic, immigration, what republican solution? build this massive wall with an iron curtain like the old soviet union or north korea or something? the guests just said earlier we are democracy, a free country, not to mention millions of people come here and work. those people help keep us alive during the pandemic which is seems like republicans cannot get their brains it was a real think. over one million people died over a couple years. america was pretty much in

flamed -- inflamed and agitated with terms rhetoric and narratives all that aside, 91 indictments against their golden hero. you have to look at things realistically. it feels as if republicans listen to fox news and oan. right wing ugly narrative. guest: i do not have anything to add there. host: i want to ask you about abortion and the dobbs decision and president biden's reaction. guest: i find one of the more interesting things and probably flies in the face of some of the callers preconceptions about president biden. biden is someone devoutly catholic.

he grew up in scranton and has all this nostalgia for the church of his childhood. he writes where there is nuns, there is home. the abortion issue has always been hard for him because he is torn. i think a lot of democratic catholics aren't one of the issue and i think it is hard for them to hear from the leaders of their church they are bad catholics because of their political decision so in the run-up to dobb's decision, he was a little bit torn about the right response should be. when the dobb's decision comes down, overturning roe v. wade, his administration is very flat-footed in response. he gives a speech that gets panned. people on the left accuse him of not doing enough, not showing enough outrage. weeks go by before he starts sending, signing executive orders. what changed his mind, this case

about a 10-year-old girl from ohio who had to go to indianapolis to get an abortion. the force of the law came down on her and that was the thing that changed his mind on the issue and make him appreciate the radicalism of the dobb's decision. host: franklin foer, the author of the book “the last politician: inside joe biden's white house and struggle for america's future.” is also a staff writer atlantic. thank you for joining us. guest: thank you. host: that is all the time we have for today's "washington journal." we are going to take you lives to a discussion on global threats with top cybersecurity of issues here in washington dc. the 14th >> even probably just a couple years ago