in recess. can you watch them here when they return here on c-span. >> join us tonight for the premiere of c-span's new series, "books that shaped america" in partnership with the library of congress we'll explore 10 books from the library of literature that provoked thoughts, won awards and led societal change that are still talked about today. we'll feature "common sense" a 47-page pamphlet written by thomas paine at 1776 at the height of tensions between the american colonies and great britain. a history professor at the university of maryland talked how thomas paine drew his pamphlet and urged for independence from the british monarchy and six months later the declaration of independence was signed. watch "books that shaped america" featuring thomas paine's "common sense." tonight on c-span now, a free mobile video app or online at

c-span.org. scan the q.r. code to listen to our companion podcast and learn more about the authors of the book featured -- books featured. host: we're here with marc goldwein. let's begin with defining deficit versus debt. do that and then tell us the difference. guest: thanks for ha. the deficit is how much we borrow each year, and the debt is the sum of all of our past deficits. if you think of a credit card, the deficit is how much you have added to a credit card bill in 2023. the debt is how much you owe total. host: where are we at right now? guest: there are different ways

to measure. but i like to look at how the public is a share of the economy. we are close to 100%. it is as large as a full year's worth of output. host: why are we in this position? guest: there is no one thing, but the kobe crisis in the great recession before that included a lot of one time borrowing that got us far from our historical average of 50% to 100%. underlying that, we keep passing new tax cuts and new spending increases that widen our structural deficits and the agent of the population and rising health care costs put pressure on some of our oldest programs, social security and medicare to continue growing in cost. host: are we paying our credit

card? guest: we are paying it with credit cards. we are borrowing a lot and we will roll over debt from previous years. host: according to the new report, the deficit is rising faster than projected. why? guest: last year's deficit was $1 trillion, this year $2 trillion. effectively, the deficit has doubled. part of the reason is it turns out 2022 was a high water point. we had a good year in terms of tax question -- tax collection from capital gain. now, things are normal. adding to the cost of social security and medicare went up sharply because of inflation and

our interest costs are as high as they've ever been since the 90's, with the average interest rate on new debt, even 5.5% in some cases. host: who is to blame? guest: host: we all are. the voters need to take was possibility because we love low taxes, government services and benefits. politicians keep making promises they can't afford. they tell us don't worry about the borrowing because it will pay for itself or the spending program is so important. many of the economists are to blame. when interest rates were low, they said borrowing is cheap, let's do it. it did not occur to them interest rates will rise and we are going to roll over the cheap debt into expensive debt. host: this chart from your report shows the divergence

between spending and revenue over the years. what can you tell us? what has been happening? guest: two things. we keep cutting taxes so revenue has a built in growth and as incomes grow up, revenue should be growing. that is not happen if we keep cutting taxes. the other is increased spending. new government programs, one-time relief -- so that made sense and some of it did not. for example, covid. and we have allowed our largest programs including social security, medicare and medicaid to grow completely unfettered. we have known these are on a nonsustainable track. if you are on social security now, it will not be able to pay

that in 10 years because it will be insolvent. yet we have done nothing to raise more revenue to finance it. host: why not? guest: because it is hard. it is fun to tell people i gave you a tax cut and protected your sources there social security benefits. it is hard to say in the interest of the greater good, we will have to raise the retirement age by one month every two years. you will have to pay more taxes on your income. we can do it especially if republicans and democrats got together. but it is politically tough because nobody wants to pay more taxes or lower benefits host:. [indiscernible] don't -- host: one former president trump was in control, there were tax cuts. there was a piece about how much

of those tax cuts will stay in place because president biden has said no one made -- making lesson $40,000 should see a tax increase. their reporting said much of trump's tax cut package stays in place. guest: it is possible. republicans cut taxes by about $2 trillion over 10 years in the trump administration and join hands with democrats to increase spending and cut taxes by a combined almost $3 trillion more. many of those taxes expire at the end of 2025. though there has been talk of paying for suspensions, we don't know how they are going to do it. it is a big risk that the parties have joined together not with hard choices but by extending and expanding the tax cuts.

host: we are eight working days away from a possible shutdown. conservative republicans are saying we need to address spending now. they want to spend 150 billion dollars less than what the president and speaker mccarthy agreed to in may. guest: that may agreement, the fiscal responsibly act is a good start. democrats and republicans came together on a plan to freeze spending levels for -- per year and have it grow slowly next year. it would not solve our debt would save one to $2 trillion over a decade. we ought to go forward with this and then work on how to build on it. now, the house wants to spend below the deal. the senate wants to spend above the deal. they are taking all of this and declaring it an emergency. it was ordinary spending.

but nobody wants to abide by it. let's pass this spending act and then go back for more. we will have to cut spending a lot to get the debt under control. host: let me ask our viewers to join us. democrats (202) 748-8000. republicans (202) 748-8001. independent (202) 748-8002. and text us at (202) 748-8003. include your name, city and state. if we were to continue the trend we have been seeing over the next decade, where would that put us at? guest: am ug;u -- an ugly place.

-- if we continue on our current trajectory, within 10 years we are going to be at 115 130% within 30 years. it will be several between 180 and 300% of gdp. there is no historical example and there are not any international cases. the closest is japan. that is a recipe for slow and stagnant growth, rising interest costs, and talk to this. host: what would it take and how long to get out of the crisis? guest: we should start now. if we put $6 trillion in the debt reduction over the next decade, it would pull it to the lower sides of the economy. that would be important. it would mean we have cut tax

rates or raise revenue. we have to restrict the growth of the appropriation. we have to get serious about health care costs under control and social security. if we wait till the right moment, it will cause because that could put us in a recession and are not going to feel good for the folks relying on various programs. host: davey in arkansas, democrat. guests: -- caller: this morning we gave around $6 billion and the money had gained through oil sales. th