author of several books and veteran traveler of the trail will join us to. watch books that shaped america tonight live at 9:00 eastern on c-span, c-span now or online at c-span. org. scan the code to listen to our podcast and learn about the author's book features. >> healthy democracy doesn't just look like this, it looks like this where americans can see democracy at work where citizens are truly advanced our public thrives, get informed straight from the source on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word from the nation's capital to wherever you are because the opinion that matters

is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. wallnee senior fellow and former senate -- an author and professional on most things congress related. good morning to you. guest: thanks for having me. host: the deal they came together last minute on saturday night. is it with congress is ability to function or is it more a sign of this is how we operate at the 11.5 hour. and it takes these crises for congress to actually get something done. guest: it's a little bit of both. that is what is so frustrating to your viewers. this is in fact how congress it's things done these days. it is how congress funds the government. there is no question that if there was to be a deal last and at this is what it would look like. however, it is also a sign of congress is continued dysfunction. as we've seen over the past 10

years with most government shutdowns the way of doing business this way is becoming increasingly harder and more difficult to work to get things done. host: is this regular order now? you use to come on and we would talk about the budget profit in quarters but have these last-minute deals become the regular order? guest: that is absolutely right this is regular order. regular order refers to the iconic's will hal rogers -- schoolhouse rock standards. you have a committee, you have hearings, and then you go forward and then to get signed by the president but that is not how it works anymore. and this is for big major deals, this is how things happen. host: so what happens, what needs to happen in the next 43 days for this to not happen again? to a crisis vote. guest: we will see this happen again. it is no secret that this cr, the stopgap spending bill

expires november 17. that is literally the friday before congress goes home for the thanksgiving holiday. they did not have to pick november 17, but they did which i think shows us that there we are going to end up right back in this place. what should have happened, or what ought to happen if you want to see a more deliberative process is congress needs to give itself time to pick up bills, debate them individually or in groups, get the members to to get it -- judah gave their decisions and then decide on how to make their bill. host: and how do you think this will come to crisis mode again? he picked the day -- did they pick the day that this would be a threat if you do not get this done then you will miss your thanksgiving holiday? guest: members have this thing called debt -- gentoo and wen yu set them for thursday or friday afternoon something always happens when senators and house

members are stuck in a room and they realize they are not going home until they get something done. this is how congress at least in the last decade or two has forced with members to compromise or at least two aggressively go along without times -- outcomes they otherwise would not go along with. host: what would change the system? we establish this has become regular order. how do you fix it and how do you break the cycle? guest: right now, the reason why congress has been so dysfunctional is not because it ran out of time but congress has had plenty of time this year the appropriations process to play out. earlier this year we saw debt limit deal of bipartisan spending deal between speaker mccarthy and president joe biden republicans and democrats signing up or it. and the expectation was that we would have more regular order where congress would pick up and debate creations bills and we would not have cr. but here we are right back at it. that to change, i think it is clear for -- that voters

ultimately have to tell their members of congress and the senate and the house that they want a change. until they do that, it is not going to change. host: the way this played out a disincentive for deals in the future like what we saw between the white house and speaker mccarthy? guest: well i think the way this played out shows us that this creating a -- pushing rank-and-file members back up against the wall -- speak out of both sides of their mouth. they can hold their nose and vote for a bill until constituents the concert and serve not doing so would be disastrous. so it has it where they can have their cake and eat it too. but the problem is this is how we've done business for the last decade in congress for controversial issues. this episode is showing us that is getting harder and harder to do and eventually it will not work. you cannot do judah kate the

concerns of the people that have been calling in about. you cannot do those concerns when you do not allow them a place in the government to actually have a debate and to cast those votes. host: the lines are open for viewers to join the conversation with james waller of the or street institute senior fellow there. you can --democrats (202) 748-8000, republicans (202) 748-8001, independents (202) 748-8002. you mention the callers this morning. the topic of the conversation has been a motion to vacate, i wonder your thoughts on that and o'toole used by members of congress to put pressure on the leadership. was is always going to happen as soon as mccarthy made the deal to allow one member of congress to offer this motion to vacate that was needed to secure enough votes for the speakership back in january? guest: the rules are not a constraint. it is not like you live at home

and you have a curfew and your parents tell you you have to be home by 10:00 p.m. or 11:00 p.m. and if you don't it is their consequences. the rules of congress do not work the same, they leverage administrators republicans and democrats alike to participate in the process and they give them leverage and that is a good thing. it does not matter you're standing, it is a good thing. that is why our elected representatives go to congress to judah kate our concerns. and it is certainly ranked by law members in the house as an ability to force their view into negotiations and force leaders to consider them. it is not hanging over the speaker's head because it allows for a vote of whether or not a speaker should continue in a job. and if the ranking file of the speaker wants to continue then they will. and then if they do not they will get a new speaker, it is the end -- not the end of the

world but it is a vote that gives an individual lawmaker leverage otherwise they would not have. host: over the years we talk about the power on capitol hill and where it is concentrated. we take it -- i take it that you are of the opinion that leadership in the house and senate have had too much about power concentrated in their offices and not how it works in the past with committees and individual members having or of that leverage and power. guest: there's a lot of different ways to lead congress. it will add and flow between the two chambers the house and senate and it will also change over time. i think a better way to think about it is how do we as americans get our elected representatives to go to congress and negotiate the nonnegotiable's area that is why we have congress. we do not need to debate things we agree on already does this in rise in the east. we -- does the sun rise in the east. we already know that congress

does not have to debate that. it is things that are -- congress has a crucible of conflict that has to plan. and the ranking party and -- ranking in both parties has empowered the leadership in both chambers to take that off of the lawyer, out of the public venues where our elected representatives would normally take positions that we can see from afar is held accountable for or reward them for. and they given them that power to their leadership when it does is create a disconnect between what we see from the out side and what happens on the inside. it is precisely that disconnect but is unsustainable. i think that is the message from this past weekend in washington dc. host: different scenario what is your feelings on tommy turberville hold on military promotions and the block votes that would happen. a lot of criticism from the known party and democrats in the white house as well that is holding up this process.

guest: we have another example of how a lawmaker can use this rule as leverage. the senate rules do not give anyone senator a veto over what the chamber does. it is the senate majority party deciding it does not want to follow the rule. asking for a consent of to waive the rules in powering the senator from alabama. the problem is, you cannot ask a senator for their permission and then get upset when they say no. that is not a consent request. you are basically saying this is how it has to be done. the democrats have every power they need under the rules to roll and go over senator tommy tuberville's head. and both nominees where they have the geordie leader chuck schumer. but they chose instead it appears that to criticize the

senator and make a political point as opposed to using the senate role to get something done. host: we talk about nominations and motion to vacate, what is one of the other tools of leverage that a member can do to insert this power? guest: we saw a senator from colorado object to a request for the ukraine funding the past weekend. and getting some sort of negotiation and informal commitment to move on the funding. that is another example of how a senator can use the rules. members of congress, there is a lot of the names around the filibuster is another one. the filibuster is not a veto but an opportunity to ache. the longer you speak the more impatient your colleagues get. apparently that is not what lawmakers do anymore. and the more they are willing to give you and work with you with some sort of movement that you want on the behalf of your constituents. host: our viewers have questions

about the rules featured on capitol hill now is a good time to call in. james wallner on r street institute and his book that came out in 2020, it was on parliamentary war. partisan conflict and procedural change in the united seed -- united states and that one came out in 2017. reminding viewers about your experience on capitol hill. how long were you on capitol hill and where did you work? guest: i started my career in the house incentives. i worked in southeast alabama and i moved to the senate i fell in love with the senate. the house is a fabulous institution as well but this and it a great place i worked for alabama and pennsylvania and utah. those are three very different members. but in my role i got a lot of opportunity to work with members across the political spectrum.

i really discovered what a fabulous place this united states and it is in the congress. it really is a forum for a good meaning people to go to capitol hill on behalf of their constituents and argue with one another. that is how we get compromised in this nation. host: let's chat with a few callers. peter is up first out of new york, republican. you're on. caller: good morning. i agree with matt gaetz. /a couple things. i agree -- aside from a couple things. i agree that speaker mccarthy went back to regular order and this fight should have been done in june and july, not now. so matt gaetz contention is that mccarthy intentionally delayed it so they can push through extra spending. the real question is, is this about a fight or -- it is about the debt and the deficit. we had deficit in 2020 because of covid and the spending to keep the economy going.

we understand that that can be justified, but the point is now we are more than $2 trillion deficit. every economist that i have heard says this kind of spending is unsustainable. right now, the interest of the debt is $704 billion. almost the defense budget. pretty soon when the treasury notes become due and renegotiated, the interest on the debt could exceed $2 trillion within 10 years. the fight isn't about -- the spending is nice, we all love to spend money. the question is can we afford to do it? are we going to -- the country. and this is not part of the discussion. that is the most important art. we would all love to increase -- social spending on social programs and all abyss but is it sustainable? i wish you would address that. guest: absolutely right.

whether you agree or not with the caller, the point is that congress is where we have these discussions these negotiation. what happens is the ranking file empower their leaders to make certain policy outcomes before a conclusion. and they have efforts in arguments about other policy outcomes that appear illegitimate. look at the debt debate we had last spring. during that debate house conservatives raise the issue time and time again over whether or not we can continue to spend money. congress may decide they are wrong and some may redoes -- may decide they are right, that is what happens but what they were told and said is this is not the time for the argument instead we have to wait until we spend the money. this is just about debt for money we already agreed to spend. if you want to have that argument we need to have it in the appropriations process when we run the government and september of this year.

fast-forward to september of this year and we are told this is not the time to have argument this is about a government shutdown that we cannot have. so you need to stop wishing this right now. we will not have these vote instead we will have one policy outcome and that is the only legitimate policy outcome. that is undermining that foundations of political american self-government in this nation right now. it is not allowing the people regardless of what they believe a place where they can go or where they are represented to argue with one another and decide how we are going to move forward in the nation. host: she low in ohio. democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. do not be distracted, the reason for the shutdown does not have anything to do with the debts, remember trump has been truly -- giving to -- tax cuts to the richest 1%. the reason for the shutdown is because trump wants it. the more chaos in the most

distraction from his own crimes. i wonder, the gop is not your father's republican party, it is trump's party now. i wonder, c-span, if you could have kids later in ruth -- on to talk about and get historical context to what trump is doing. ruth wrote a book on fascism of something like strongman moving away -- lithuania moving to the president. host: we appreciate the suggestion. james wallner is on now. i wonder you have any thought on donald trump and his impact of republican members on capitol hill? guest: he is not a member of the house of representatives or the senate. i know from my time that representatives and senators genuinely think that shutdowns are not good for them politically even though there is not in pitter -- empirical data to support that. and they support that equally. but i know the constitution is clear. it is congress's decision on how

and when the money leaves the federal treasury. congress decides that and when you put everything >> we are t breaking away now fr live coverage of the house including use of educational standards for federal cybersecurity positions. live to the floor of the u.s. house on c-span. the speaker: the house will be in order. the prayer will be offered by chaplain kibben. chaplain kibben: would you pray with