this is the washington journal for october 31.

president biden signed an executive order on monday that will take an effect towards how the technology is used. if you have concerns about ai you can tell us on the phone lines how you are concerned or hopeful about artificial intelligence (202) 748-8000 for those of you in the eastern time zones, pacific time zones (202) 748-8001 you could also text us at (202) 748-8003. who did talk about this concern are taking a look at those topics. they attracted over three years. 18% of those respondents were

more excited than concerned about artificial intelligence. when it comes to the equally excited/concerned 26%. in 2021 37% of respondents were more concerned than excited. according to the folks at pews. the washington post highlights that it harnesses purchasing power that it can help ensure people's rights and safety and it wants to develop standards.

when it comes to the world of artificial intelligence are you concerned or hopeful about it? for those of you in the eastern/ central time zone (202) 748-8000 , pacific time zones (202) 748-8001. [video clip] >> that is why i have called on protections for your personal data. we will develop hellenic technology that will make those protections as strong as possible. without the rights of lifeguards -- safeguards it can lead to abuses. that is why -- that means clear

guidance from lynn lawrence to prevent bias in aei to make decisions as someone who can identify who qualifies for a job. host: we will show you more from that event, palace again on the line (202) 748-8000 four eastern and central and for pacific time zones (202) 748-8001. you can express your thoughts or hopes about the technology. if you go to the m.i.t. review, a story posted about yesterday

kate ryan mostly joins us on zoom to talk to us about the story. host: we will talk about the specifics but overall arching goals what are they trying to do in this space? guest: this is a big executive order, it's very long and a lot of different components to it. the white house says their goal is to increase ai safety and security. the main tenants are increased standards on best practices for how ai products are used, and tested. there is a general empowerment agencies across sectors for regulating ai.

host: one of the points you make is the executive order has teeth. guest: one thing that is interesting with ai that we've seen so far is a lot of the action the government has taken to create stronger mechanisms for safeties has been voluntary and there is a history of self-regulation in the tech industry. what has continued in this executive order is that most of the standards and best practices are voluntary. there's not these robust enforcement mechanisms.

that's best created through bipartisan legislation. the enforcement question has been pushed down the road. this is a newer space, and consumer facing ai systems. this need for establishing best practices, test protocols, labeling methods israel but at the same time a lot of skeptics and those who distrust the tech industry say are we going to really go down this path of self-regulation again? host: how would to gauge the

reaction from the tech industry itself? guest: does the recently i heard from tech companies and they have been in close contact with congress over the past few months. we have seen ai legislation heat up. and what has crystallized is this american strategy on ai policy which is meant to bolster ai companies and promote competition and innovation. this is something we will continue to see as we see increasing policy actions. host: how qualified is government in this space? when the internet was coming up

there were questions about whether congress understood the technology. are those concerns now as well? guest: less so now than in the past. directing agencies to write rules on ai that will protect consumers. how will ai be used in hiring and labor? and what are the risk associated? there is some validity in that approach and having that specificity and rules of ai. at the same time, the lack of

having a governor framework -- governing framework, it can be difficult. that's why the white house is created on creating new standard so companies can lean on those. host: we are talking to our viewers about concerns and hopes about technology. how would you categorize how savvy people are at this point? guest: one thing worth calling gallant is clearly the white house believes in the future where ai touches everything.

it's really going to be a part of our infrastructure from a technology standpoint. there are some parts of the hype that are real in some parts in or not. there are very real risks with ai systems we have today. we know that it is often biased and there can be harms when there comes to copyright and bias. there are issues that we have not yet addressed or the people who use technologies. host: taint ryan mosley has that piece up on the website on roy mind. host: if you want to express

your concerns or hopes about artificial intelligence. for the eastern and central time zones (202) 748-8000, four mountain pacific (202) 748-8001. host: from shane dawson he' worriedbout the people making regulations for these are people who can't set their vcr. there is a number of ways ai can d. happy halloween, tis the season. you can post on facebook, x or

you can send us a text message at (202) 748-8003. it was vice president kamala harris who talked about not only what the white house was doing but from her perspective, what it could do on a global scale. [video clip] >> as leaders of government and the private sector we have a moral, ethical and societal duty to make sure ai is adopted and advance in a way that protects the public from harm. and it sure everyone is able to enjoy its benefits. since we took office, we have work to uphold the duty. before generative ai captured global attention we convene new leaders from across our country

from computer scientist to civil rights leaders, and business leaders to make sure that the benefits of ai are shared equitably. and predict threats like algorithmic discrimination and deepfakes. we named it the blueprint for an ai bill of rights. after which president biden and i had engagement with the leading ai companies to help ensure the private sectors blueprint to the pot. and of minimum baseline for responsible l.a. live practices. we hope the actions we take domestically provide a model

internationally. host: to that end, that was kamala harris who now travels to england on ai technology. host: first of all, any intelligence that we arrive at that is growth. this is coming in is here to stay. host: are you concerned that the government has the ability to track and regulate that? caller: this government doesn't have the ability to do anything

all right. that's why we're losing in iraq. host: let's hear from iowa. caller: ai is not a threat in the way people think it is. it's a glorified search engine. i don't know why everybody is crazy about ai. it's not been the rewrite the nuclear codes, it's like a google search. it's not always accurate. those students who use this to cheat is because the information it gives them is inaccurate. host: do you think in the realm of ai concerns about defense could be -- concerns about deep fakes are a real concern?

caller: not really, is so obvious that his fakes it does not matter. the technology is not there yet. host: that was shannon and iowa. a new poll that asked people about ai, if it helped more than it hurt. most of the respondents felt 49% help more when it comes to finding products services, people concerned about keeping their information private, 53% said it hurt more and they said it helped more for companies making cars and trucks and doctors giving care to patients. some concerns about it is in

customer service and police maintaining safety. if you want to see that pupil you can look it up there this is sthae off facebook when it comes to ai, she was hopeful and excited about the possibilities. i think it holds grea potential in danger for humaty from febk as well, barbara johnson saying she is hopel. there are parts of ai they could make my life easier at home, bring it on. those are some of those concerns and hopes when it comes to ai and technology.

this is steven from miami, you're next. caller: i am deeply concerned about ai and the reason is, i have an associates in robotics. everyone said the same thing then as they say now. and robotics destroyed the autoworkers. the decline in unions was due to the technology and robotics. when i was in school they thought this was crazy until they solve the movie terminator.

this technology is gonna replace a lot of accounting firms, paralegals, it will be lost through artificial intelligence. chatbot is just the beginning. i help with broadband that is going to provide the data for this ai communication. host: do you think government has the tools to oversee this technology? caller: given what i saw with robotics and how it impacted autoworkers. i don't believe they have the power. the autoworkers are on strike. the government hasn't protected them. i don't think they can regulate

it because i saw this first hand through my career. host: we will hear from lizzo in oregon, you are next. caller: i am not afraid of artificial intelligence. i am afraid of the programmers. host: can you elaborate on that? caller: they can't do anything unless somebody programs them to do it. it's the programmers that i'm worried about. host: if you are concerned about the programmers, is it because they will use it for malicious means? caller: that they do user for malicious means. host: liz from oregon.

not worried about the technology but the programmers. this question was typed into chat gpt. who said views on ai, people are concerned about problems, and they are hopeful but could also be a tool that could enhance their lives and contribute it to positive implications but also fear of privacy issues in job displacement. people worry about it system

being developed without proper oversight. overall there is a mix of optimism and caution. that came from chatgpt. best response it gave. you can give years as well. you can send us a text at (202) 748-8003. you can also call us online as well. jane in new jersey. caller: when it comes to artificial intelligence i think a lot of people are blowing it out of proportion. let's go to market in new york, you're next.

-- mark in new york. caller: i am very concerned. what are people going to do for jobs? a lot of people need regular jobs that doesn't require a lot of education or degrees. an ai will start doing those jobs. in my view, the only way to do it right with ai is to institute guaranteed minimal income so everyone gets a check for thousand dollars a month and that would eliminate the need for a lot of the other programs. then people could at least live because robots will be doing all the menial jobs. host: the aclu put out of press

conference. noting one of their concerns. ai has become integrated into our daily lives exacerbating it and magnifying discriminatory harms and housing, employment and education. they want to raise a red flag for ai in law enforcement like facial rice ignition -- recognition. should ai be used in any particular context at all? thus from the aclu. teddy and syracuse, new york. caller: thank you for taking my

call. as a writer, my main concern is that ai can take the place of actual writing. by writers. host: elaborate about that, tell me more. caller: it takes a lot of time, study and education. in reading a wide variety of written words and going to college, getting degrees. and that is a huge investment. with things like chatgpt, these can take the writings of voltaire and pull from them

different ideas, sentence structure, different styles. and come up with new work. what does that pretend -- portend for an actual writer like myself who put a lot of effort to learning to become a writer and becoming a writer. host: expressing his concern asf a writer. on the new york times website said in want add talked about an ai bleed. they're seeking a senior editor

for responsible ai application and journalism. they will lead our efforts to use these tools in reader facing ways. they will shape the vision for how we use this technology. that is on the website. there are stories connected to that as well. let's hear from selena minneapolis. caller: the fear of ai, could take away jobs away from it americans.

host: this is president biden taking the lead on these issues. caller: it's good that they're doing this. we should just be trying to get workers better pay rather than thinking about ai. we have already invented all the art there is going to be. all the art has already been created were just reprinting the written word. host: are you worried about ai art? caller: you can tell and it's fake and you can tell when it's made by ai. the only people who are really worried about this are the boomers. i'm sorry that they're getting fooled. host: let's hear from john in

california. caller: good morning, thank you for c-span. were talking about a regulatory problem where they are introducing these laws as potential hazards. the problem is that anywhere you have money, regulation is up for debate. it's impossible to predict. we had a revolutionary change where the computer is involved. -- a majors show me the computer so we walked up to this building and the whole floor showed up and there was road of machines. i thought it would be cash registers or something.

that was my concept of a back then and it changed everything. i don't think it's unfair to be afraid of it because we have experts in the field predicting these horrendous things that could happen. how do you prepare for something like that when there's so much money is involved. it's a global thing as well. how dangerous could this thing be and if it was mishandled, how fast could the genie get out of the bottle? host: again you can call (202) 748-8000 on eastern time zones

and in text at (202) 748-8003. the fellows institute is founded by mr. moscowitz and they are tied to an influence network that's pushing washington to focus on long-term risk. it would tied the hands of tech firms acting through horizon institute of public service. opened by open for lamberth e.

-- in open philanthropy. there are horizon fellows working on ai issues. senator blumenthal unveiled plans for an ai licensing receive who also included an ai fellow. that story is on the politico website. chuck schumer had this to say about bipartisan legislation on the issue. [video clip] >> we think in this area if the u.s. stays out in front we will be able to lead. other countries are looking for us we are talking about a lot of

groups. if you move too quickly you could fail the eu had to learn.. we will have legislation ready in the next two months. right now we are having forms right now and we have had for already into more. in our first form we had just about everyone there. our second form, everyone agreed they would spend significant dollars to move research forward. it's helping us move

legislation. host: let's hear from sean in ohio. caller: my thought is neutral. it is nothing people need to be afraid of. his been around since 1972. they had the first ai robot. there are programs and all of your doctors around the world depend on ai to get diagnosis before they give you your own diagnosis. when they go back to do their diagnosis they depend on ai. this stuff is been here for a long time. the one thing you have to worry about is if someone maliciously programmed it to do something. other than than that, ai does

not live in the physical world. it lives in a digital space. it doesn't eat, procreate or colonize. these are human fears. the ai off world, is an in outer space. people need to calm down and look at what is really going on. host: yesterday, the new york times published a story looking at the concerns of ai. doctors wrestle with ai inpatient care citing lack of oversight. programs that use ai, doctor's orders are skeptical that they really improve care and are backed by reserves.

this is ray in colorado sin as far as the judicial branch is concerned, what about bail riding in brief composition. -- bill writing. caller: earlier this year 60 minutes ran a thing on ai. some of the responses that ai was giving sounded like scripted answers rather than an ai response. when it says it is happy to work with humans or sad about this. nai will not be happy or sad about anything. as the bias of the person writing it.

so when someone asked this or that question, the programming is really good on this. i was doing stuff like this back in the 80's where you would ask the computer a question and it would look at your question and go to a preprogram response. i know it's more sophisticated today. host: do you think garbage in garbage out applies to the ai world. caller: in some cases, when the computer references book birds that doesn't exist. i have seen news reports about this.

you don't know for certain whether or not the book or movie exist and you begin to question all of the data. host: i get your point. thank you for that call. we have sherry in nevada. caller: i think the fears are overblown. ai is so exciting to have information on her fingertips and i think about how chatgpt will be an exciting time. it's like when microwave ovens came out. i feel like ai will be like that. it will be in our lives so much.

will hardly notice it. host: in what way do you think it will help humankind overall? caller: the amount of information. everyone in the world will be able to gather it so quickly. from medical information, history, information that it holds for all of us. host: sherry expressing her hopes about technology. some of you expressing concerns in both of you are welcome. (202) 748-8000 four eastern/central time zones and (202) 748-8001 for mountain/ pacific. you can also send us a text (202) 748-8003. john in maryland euronext.

your next. caller: i am hopeful note, you could say is a good and bad thing. it is created a more democratization of information. even in middle and low income countries. they can get information freely. the concern is is that an ai model should be safe, honest and fair. it should not be bias. due to the data we have right now especially with facial

recognition. we don't have enough data to recognize some of these features. when we talk about ai being bias. i remember facebook took down in ai model. the information they were getting was fake and possible. -- impossible. depending on the information you feed the ai or if it gets in the wrong hands you can imagine the damage that will be done. host: if i may ask, if those are the concerns, do you think the government has the ability to oversee it or is it a case where

the industry self polices? caller: the industry cannot regulate itself. it has to be the government because they can regulate industry. when it comes to safety, that can come by regulating ai. host: here is senator cruz of taxes saying inal fashion they have created mandates for wokeness. let's hear from larry. caller: i am deeply concerned

about the vulnerability of ordinary people to large organizations who will use this technology. corporations, military, the pentagon. police agencies, intelligence agencies. the bad actors among these organizations will have magnified their power. i can see you doing more harm than good for ordinary people. corporations will do good as they increase profits and get rid of people. the policeman's behavior can be magnified. i don't see the overall benefit

for everyday citizens. as far as regulation, guess who owns congress? corporations. i am pessimistic about this. i've been looking at the stop for a long time. i have an engineering background and i don't see much good coming forward. host: was senator expressing concern was josh hawley. he expressed his concern and here's a portion from his remarks. [video clip] >> some of what we are learning about the potentials of ai is exhilarating. some of it is horrifying. what i hear the chairman saying

is that we have a responsibility to do our part to make sure that this new technology, which holds a lot of promise and peril actually works for the american people. it's good for working people, families. we don't make this same mistake was social media where congress outsourced social media and that has been an unmitigated disaster. we've had the biggest corporations in america and on the globe doing whatever they want with social media. running experiments on america's kids. mental health harm, messing around with our elections in a way that's deeply corrosive. we cannot make those mistakes again. host: if you want to find

hearings that have taken place on capitol hill when it comes to ai you can go to our website at c-span.org. you remember when the auto dustry started using robotics. we out excep -- we all accept this. cell phones were foreign technology years ago and now everyone has one. let's hear from leanne in maryland, hello. caller: are you talking to me? i did not mean to sound like robert de niro there. this is so expensive --

expensive. basically, the idea that the tech industry has been policed at all is not real estate. it is been some police. there are two great books out. one is called " the danger with in us" how medical tech has been put inside of us for years now. it covers issues around how this tech got out of hand in the first place having to do mostly with partnering regulatory

agencies. agency being captured in a way that the conflicts of interest are so intense it's hard to untangle these conflicts of interest. but patients are being hurt badly. annie jacobson talks about darpa h and how this tech it's a start. i just want to say one last thing about how this tech is developed. is developed by stealing from people like us. anyone who uses the internet. i am a songwriter. i used to have to apply for

copyrights. that's still a thing we are supposed to do but basically, we are totally unprotected. we can be stalked, spied on, stolen from. the person who has creative content on the internet is completely unprotected and as far as i'm concerned, is outrageous that were at this place and just on talking about this. host: let's hear from jan in new jersey. caller: when i came to this country there is a lot of talk about television. it would corrupt our minds and now tv is gone and it's ai. the situation with ai, there are a lot of things that are not true.

it will work out. as long as you don't allow on a few corporations to have the only access to means of contact in people's homes. it's going to be all right. don't put people in a situation where they look something on google is just all ads and corporate interests before they get to the right answer. it's all a matter of how you do it, regulate it. we've been through this before and we can do it again. don't but make it something that makes the rich a bunch of jerks. host: to the last caller's point, is still one of those

issues being hammered out with the writers strike. among those issues is the world of ai. they want to put boundaries to protect performers licensees. the union has also said is seeking to limit ai to single projects. there are a number of big issues with ai. the franchise consent role is one where there is not been progress. that's where the entertainment industry is. you can continue to express your hopes and concerns, it is (202) 748-8000 eastern/pacific, (202) 748-8001 mountain/pacific.

host: go ahead. caller: i think could be interesting to have washington journal done by ai. host: fred, one of those people with concerns about ai. chuck schumer met with elon musk. he talked about how they welcome regulations on the state of ai. here's a portion. [video clip] >> i asked everyone to raise their hands to see if they were in favor of ai regulation and almost everyone is. that's a good sign. >> do you think there were a

minds on the senate side? >> i can't read their minds. they can agree that some regulation is in order. i think it's clear that there is a strong consensus that there should be some ai regulation and it would be in the best interests of the people. i don't know what time frame. the probability of being in ai agency is likely at some point. i think so. the reason we want to make sure their safety and ai is because the probabilities of a disaster in ai are severe. host: let's hear from dan and

new york -- in new york. caller: i would like to say that ai can be extremely expensive. whether you like it or not, if the government gets involved you will be paying for it. the first question i would pose to ai is which is more efficient, solar panels or gas, oil and nuclear. host: why would you compose those questions or would you trust a response? caller: it depends on who programs it of course. if you have any knowledge at all you will now that solar power is not nearly as efficient as our natural resources.

host: joe is next in phoenix, arizona. caller: good morning, i love your show. artificial intelligence, we don't know enough about it. it's wonderful to see our elected leaders and folks who are watching it. it is important. i'm a farmer and i work for a major airline. security in both of those realms are important. josh hawley, i don't trust him. he's backpedaling from his insurrection days and i don't have a lot of faith in what he is doing. i hope that many people move forward to make it better. host: there are websites where you can check on how your

government takes care of ai in your state. texas has already signed legislation over a. others doing it by executive order like california, virginia, pennsylvania. many others suggest introducing legislation and it goes on from there if you want to check on the website from there. one more call, this will be from mark in pennsylvania. caller: thank you for taking my call. i think ai is such a broad area. there are bound to be military and tom uses. it will also depend on what is programmed for technology use.

i see and ai type robot advising an officer or approaching the door during domestic incidents. i see a lot of different areas like that. i see it happening in schools where ai can identify someone coming in with bad intent and they will be able to alert for different things. i think he will see a lot of good uses and may be bad uses if it's not regulated to some degree. host: to that end, how men should government get involved in the regulatory process of the stage? caller: at this stage, you had to be really involved to make

sure it doesn't get into a thing where it's unsafe to walk down the street. you have to make it safe for individual people. so it doesn't get out of control the way hollywood might make us feel. it's like anything else, you will look and see what the biggest fear is and that's what we react to. host: that was mark in pennsylvania finishing off your calls. i want to think all of you for participating this ours. coming up, we will be talking about the house and its new speaker mike johnson and how it could impact campaign 2024. david wasserman will join us for that conversation.

later on we will talk about hugo -- two hugo lowell who will talk about donald trump's most upcoming legal cases. we will talk about that when we returned to the washington journal. ♪ >> the honorable mike johnson of the state of louisiana is duly elected speaker of the house of representatives. >> the battle over the house speaker ship is over. the public and house members elected mike johnson as the new speaker of the house following the removal of kevin mccarthy.

continue to stay with c-span network as the house reconvenes and get back to legislative business. you can also visit our video library at c-span.org where you can find out more about mike johnson's career in congress. with more than 250 appearances since he was sworn in. c-span, your unfiltered view of government. >> if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage you can find it any time online at c-span.org. videos of key hearings, debates and other events feature markers that guide you to newsworthy highlights. these appear on the right-hand side of your screen when you hit play on selected videos. the timeline makes it easy to get an idea of what was debated and decided in washington. scroll through and spend a few minutes on c-span's point of interests.

>> a healthy democracy does not just look like this, it looks like this where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informed and where the public thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. on the nation's capital to wherever you are. continuing the matters most, this is what democracy looks like. c-span powered by cable. >> c-span now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of washington. keep up with the day's biggest events from the u.s. congress. white house events, the courts and more from the world of politics all at your fingertips. you can stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling

information and c-span radio. c-span radio is now available on the app store and google play. >> washington journal continues. host: our first guest of the morning, david wasserman to talk about the 2024 elections and also the election of the new health -- the new house speaker. what are the challenges he is facing now in -- concerning the republicans and democrats he serves over. guest: he is facing challenges legislatively and politically. it represents a shift for house republicans and although democrats are doing that he's in ardent opponent of same-sex

marriage, that he worked behind the scenes to provide the legal rationale returning the 2020 election for house republicans it still could be difficult for democrats to make it central for the 2024 election given the noise of the presidential cycle, the fact you will have trumps legal problems in the news. all 18 republicans who represent districts of joe biden carried in 2020 voted for him for speaker so democrats will try and use that narrative to make the case to offer proof to voters that these republicans are not the moderates they've made themselves out to be. democrats only need to pick up five seats to win the house majority back in 2024. the house majority hasn't flipped in a presidential cycle since 1952 considering there are those 18 republicans in biden won district and only five

democrats in trump won district there are competitive seats for them to get there. host: one of the things the house speaker does is raise money in those races. guest: mike johnson is not accustomed to the political legwork of being a top leader or speaker for his party. johnson came to congress in 2016 he's never had to break a reelection sweat, he has a pretty mild demeanor compared to some members of the freedom caucus and some past republican leaders. kevin mccarthy was arguably the most effective fundraiser and recruiter for house republicans in history. he raised him was $260 million for their top super pac which raised and spent money on behalf of republican candidates to win back the house and the midterm.

kevin mccarthy raise $70 million across as many so far in 2023 that johnson raised for his own political committee. now he has decided to keep on the same political team in place at the congressional leadership fund, to reassure donors and republican candidates that there will be continuity. the jury is out on whether he can really step into those shoes that mccarthy has left behind. host: you talk about the speaker himself and how hobie used by democrats, there is a group called courage for america who've already released a video. we will show folks the added home. [video clip] >> efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. >> he voted to decertify absolutely.

>> to help lead the charge to overturn the results of the 2020 election. >> think it's ok for him or any speaker candidate to vote to decertify the last election. >> i don't think it's ok. i think it's a mistake. ♪ host: that is targeted to the congressional district of george santos. other than that, a sign of things to come. guest: you will see democrats try to tie republicans who are generally moderate to speaker johnson, keep in mind johnson will be navigating the house with the same senate majority the mccarthy did so whether it's

on a continued resolution or trying to balance funding for the border and aid to israel and ukraine or navigating possible expulsion vote of congressman santos on long island which all five other republicans from that -- competitive district in that state have called for his removal from congress and yet that would cost republicans a vote in a very narrowly divided house. how does johnson navigate these issues, that is going to be a huge test for him and republicans in the next five to six months. host: our guest is with us so if you have questions about speaker johnson, what faces republicans in the 20 -- 2024 race. 202-748-8001 for republicans. 202-748-8000 for democrats.

independents, 202-748-8002. you can also text us at 202-748-8003. one of the first things this week will be aid to israel. what is the strategy and message there? guest: speaker johnson has to balance the demands of the freedom caucus to defund the irs , they want a lot for the border and skeptical of providing the aid to ukraine with the wishes of those republicans who are open and vulnerable seats. in particular you have 11 republicans in new york and california who represent biden districts. some of those blocked jim jordan from becoming speaker.

still dealing with a rules package that has a one-vote threshold to vacate. it hasn't really changed from her mccarthy was and that's republicans are so desperate to have some breathing room they can convince swing voters should not be trusted with the keys to power as they were in the last month. host: is there any indication the speaker will support changes to that so he won't see the same thing that happened to kevin mccarthy. guest: he would certainly like that but this is internal republican conference policy. host: let's take some calls. you are on with dave wasserman. caller: good morning. how is everyone. i wanted to call and talk about

-- can you hear me? host: you are on, go ahead. caller: i'm just in a talk about mike johnson and him saying he was there because god blessed him to be in that position. we have no state religion and also the puritans were separatist and did not want organized religion. we are -- the house is the people's house. i really like people of faith and all of their morality. another thing i want to say about the gop is the platform is there is no platform. it seems like they choose to have imaginary anxiety about things other than looking at reality, talking about things

like abortion. men are never going to face that, they are not in the arena that women are. host: thank you. going back to her first point as part of the religion aspect. mike johnson one of the first things he did was appear the republican jewish coalition conference. what's the message there from those? >> speaker johnson is a product of the bible belt. he is an ally of israel and made clear that standing with israel is his first priority is incoming speaker. for years democrats were able to win over a wide swath of secular independent blue-collar voters by purpura -- pretraining republicans as bible thumpers looking to impose their moral values. democrats have struggled to make

headway against trump with those voters because he doesn't represent that christian conservative wing. he came in as a twice divorced casino mogul. mike johnson is more of a standard issue christian conservative who is open about his faith and its role in his political position. so yes it is right for demo -- riep for democratic attack. at the same time johnson is so anonymous with the voters still that it could be difficult to make him a central issue. host: from virginia, independent line, dave. hello. caller: thank you for c-span. i wonder how our current house of representatives -- close it is to what our founding fathers envisioned with all the corruption and money how money representatives actually represent us. the speaker has his own ax to grind, he's using the bible to

his advantage but purporting to be a purist or center guy. how close is the way we are working to what our founding fathers originally envisioned and was the speaker there from the beginning of the house of representatives or was that an added position? guest: the speaker has been there. i would say republicans are frustrated with what's transpired in the last month they don't believe 3.6% of their own conference should have been able to overthrow speaker mccarthy. in some sense the house really does -- it really is closest to the will of the american voter because the house map is very narrowly defined and republicans have a little bit of a structural advantage in the senate and electoral college

where the tipping point states are a few points to the right of the nation. we see this area of competitive contest for control. we don't have as many truly competitive issues. when we, with our ratings we will have 24 out of 435 districts we see as pop-ups for 2024. a very narrow battlefield, pumping a lot of money into that narrow band of races. it will come down to three factors. how redistricting fights play out, how effective both parties are at recruiting quality candidates. one of the ironies is republicans are on a strong streak when mccarthy was deposed as speaker and he had personally cajoled a lot of those candidates into races. people like austin in northern

maine, or a milk trucker in gary indiana or a retired new york cop in new york's 18th district. democrats have mostly been getting behind candidates who ran last cycle and fell just short. and repeat candidates with a mixed track record. then the house will come down to the top of the ticket. a presidential like turnout we will likely see 160 million voters turn out rather than 112 million who turned out in the midterms. that added group of voters, how do they fall when it comes to the down ballot and there is reason to believe in states like new york and california that will be more diverse, help the democrats in key races but it is also skewed heavily noncollege and white or states like

pennsylvania to michigan and ohio that add on electorate could be more pro-trump and help republicans. host: when it comes to next elections could be a kingmaker. guest: we've got all these districting -- redistricting fights unfolding out of the suppose it end of the redistricting cycle. as my colleague has said we used to redistrict every 10 years now we redistrict it seems every 10 minutes. in north carolina this past week republicans redrew the map for a brutal gerrymander. that state had a court imposed mapping 2022 but the state supreme court changed, republicans took control which led the way for the republican legislature to draw a new map that basically purges three or four democrats from the

delegation and grabs an extra three or four seats for republicans. democrats are arguing new york state should do the same thing. democrats are suing to invalidate the court drawn map put into place by state judges in new york and will get a ruling from new york's top court in december as to whether that proposition. democrats already have a number of takeover opportunities in the state. they are bullish on their chances of taking over george santos' eat whether that's a special election or he is replaced in the general. they also have opportunities in the fourth district, several district in the hudson valley as well as the syracuse district but if they are able to redraw those in a way that minimizes republican chances of holding onto them we could be talking about speaker jeffries and 2025.

host: let's hear from philadelphia. the democrats line. go ahead. caller: thanks for taking my call. i live in the first congressional district of pennsylvania. i'm a democrat and a never trump are. my congressman is fitzpatrick who is one of those 18 republicans in a blue district and i voted for him 2018, 2020, 2022 even though the top of those ballots i voted democrat spread and probably will vote for him next year in 2024 even though he voted for johnson. i get it, we needed a speaker but he voted against jordan. plus he is great on constituent services. i think a lot of those 18 republicans in the democratic districts i think a lot of them

are going to keep their seats. thank you. guest: this voter is a perfect illustration of why some districts flip their tickets and there aren't very many of them, there are 23 district that have voted for opposite candidates for president and house in 2020 and yet the parochial political culture of bucks county pennsylvania, a place where republicans still have a stronger brand locally then trump has in the county explains why republicans just narrowly have this house majority. republicans are in good shape to defend their seats because brian fitzpatrick is able to represent the partisan balance of the district effectively. he's going to pitch his vote for mike johnson as saying we needed to simply reopen the house. i was sick of the house being locked down.

that is his counter to the argument that he supported an extremist. but there are other republicans who will be in tougher shape who don't have as well established a brand as fitzpatrick. he's been in office for more than a decade. so you got mike garcia in california's 27th district. a lot of freshmen in new york like mike waller in the 17th district and anthony d esposito on long island who represents a district biden won by 14 points. all of those are republicans are more vulnerable to the attacks that they campaigned one way in the midterms and voted differently. host: by last analysis there were 22 tossup seats now you're saying there is 24. who are the two additional? guest: this week we are making a couple of ratings changes. in california's 22nd district,

one of the only surviving -- you seen a couple of democrats enter that contest. the assemblyman from bakersfield fell short by 3.5 points and also the center to represent a district that overlaps the congressional district. we feel that she will have another -- he will have another tough race on his hands. it's a sign here's watching over his right shoulder because you must fell to defeat to a pro-trump activist in the 2022 primary that's running again as well. the other seat that has taken the national spotlight in the last week is maine's second congressional district. one of those five democrats and a trump seat, a marine corps veteran, has long been able to

peel off a number of trump voters because he doesn't come across as a typical democrat. he has been pro-gun, more moderate on cultural issues. in the wake of the tragic rampage in his hometown of lewiston he emotionally reversed his opposition to an assault weapons ban and although it is still very recent this wound and it will take time to sort out how this plays politically it is a risk considering this district has traditionally been very supportive of the second amendment and very pro-gun. so republicans who just got into this race, 29-year-old nascar driver, austin terrio has already criticized him for trying to politicize the issue. there are other republicans running as well. it's also an open question as to whether the republican will have

party support, mccarthy had promised in order to entice terrio and other candidates to get into the race. host: this is john, massachusetts, independent line. caller: i'd like to talk about how president trump was resisted for four years by the congress. they impeached him during a covid emergency and c-span covered that for the whole time but they don't want to talk about biden's impeachment inquiry. also i'd like to talk about how the senate won't bring up any bills now and before congress wouldn't bring up any bills when nancy was in charge and nobody had a problem with that. the change the rules so she wouldn't get voted out, but rules such as congress being able to use insider trading for her husband so they could all get rich and everyone wanted that. she wouldn't bring it up.

not to mention blue cities, crime is worse in red cities -- host: do you have a question about how selections and how they could be impacted lee's. caller: i'd like to talk about -- the democrats when they talk about gerrymandering what about california and michigan. i love getting half a story. why do you try covering the other side. guest: one of the problems for democrats is a number of states that are heavily blue in the presidential election employed nonpartisan or bipartisan distress shaking commissions. in california democrats were not able to gerrymander the 52 district in the state in their favor because california employees a citizen driven commission that drew the lines in a more neutral manner which led to a number of competitive seats. that's why we still have all

these competitive races in california. michigan also uses a citizen commission, they used it for the first time in 2021. and then in new york the gerrymander the democrats in albany tried to pass was struck down by the state's top court. now that's being re-litigated over again. republicans have had an advantage to manipulate the boundary in their favors in more states that they control. texas is the biggest one. currently republicans have a 25-13 seat advantage in the state of texas. republicans are going to be going for an 11-3 advantage in north carolina, a state currently divided 7-7. even if both parties engage in gerrymandering, certainly democrats in illinois and

oregon, republicans have been more resistant to reforms in their states and as a result have more power to manipulate the boundaries in their favor. one other extreme on redistricting we are watching is the racial redistricting litigation underway. in june the supreme court in the allen v milligan case cleared the way for an additional lack majority seat alabama. given the houses so close, every change to a boundary, every state -- seat with a result of litigation feels existential. democrats are hoping, civil rights groups are hoping they see additional black majority seats in louisiana and georgia in the wake of that decision. both states where federal courts invalidated the map but republicans are trying to delay the remedial process past the election. there's also questions in florida where a state judge has invalidated a portion of

republicans congressional map for basically demolishing a black opportunity district that went from tallahassee to jacksonville. that will go up to the supreme court but that could also be an additional seat for democrats. all these cases matter a lot. host: representative debbie lesko announced she won't run for reelection, a democrat from oregon announced the same. are these a one-off trend with what's been happening over the last couple weeks? guest: i'm surprised we haven't seen more retirements so far. traditionally thanksgiving and christmas are opportunities for members of congress to go back and reevaluate whether they want to run for reelection. we have a number of open seats so far in either side driven by decisions to run for statewide office. the only competitive open seats on our board are those held by

katie porter in orange county, california who's leaving her seat to run for senate as well as the democrat represent lansing michigan. that's the most competitive open seat at this time. we are waiting to see whether george santos in new york either resigns as part of a plea deal or is expelled which would lead to a special election in early 2024. there's a big fork in the road for kevin mccarthy who is no longer speaker has to decide by december 8 which is california's filing deadline. if he were to bow out of the house than that would be a loss for republicans political operation. host: another person on the tossup list was lauren boebert of colorado. tell us about why this is a tossup. guest: this will be one of the highest spending races in the country.

lauren boebert has no one to blame for -- but herself or her political problems. the district voted for donald trump by eight points but boebert, between some of her past history including her rap sheet, some of her very outspoken statements and behavior including recently being asked to leave a theater performance in denver where she was vaping in the theater. these are some of the reasons why she is in political peril in a district that should be relatively safe. a former securities trader in new york, when you think -- when you see democrat from these resort towns running in western colorado because 70 or 80% of voters in the district are from

ranching oil and gas towns or in the case of pueblo, a town that is steel producing. they kind of resent these elite liberals as republicans would frame them to be yet he came within 546 votes of beating lauren boebert. he is sitting on $4.2 million of cash on hand compared to 1.4 million for her. the question really is how much our national republicans willing to come in and invest to bail her out. they didn't think the race was close last cycle and she nearly lost. host: david wasserman joining us for this conversation. roy is an republican -- is in north carolina, republican line. caller: i am very excited about mike johnson being voted in.

he loves america, he loves god, he loves the constitution, he loves freedom, liberty and respect. where america came from and where it is today and the men and women who helped found it. i just wanted to ask you guys one thing. either one of you democrats can answer. are there any republican reporters in washington dc? host: we are not can it classify political parties but you can respond to anything else. guest: i would say there is a conservative media ecosystem in d.c. and also a left-leaning media ecosystem. increasingly voters are choosing to tune into news that reinforces their pre-existing viewpoints. that's one of the reasons why we see this narrowband of truly

persuadable voters that could go either way. they are still the ones that determine outcomes. host: in a couple of weeks, virginia will hold elections. is there a sense of bellwether to the -- to what happens in virginia and what could play out in 2024? guest: virginia has high stake races for both chambers of its general assembly. it is running these elections under new lines because of redistricting and that has led to a lot of shakeups where you have incumbents who were introducing themselves to a bigger group of new voters. some of the most competitive races will be in loudoun county, virginia in the outskirts of richmond and virginia beach. governor glenn youngkin, a republican, has tried to stake a lot of these races on his support for a week abortion ban even in districts that joe biden

carried in 2020 you see republicans in the richmond suburbs or juan pablo so gora in a county with a chance flipping the senator republican control. youngkin badly wants the trifecta to work with so he can get legislation through richmond. i tend to think democrats are slightly favored in both chambers. we have seen a pattern the last couple of years, democrats performing well in special elections for state legislative offices. they are doing well in low turnout scenarios. what i think is happening in the wake of the dobbs decision, democrats have benefited among the highest engaged voters for the most reliable, biden's problem has been more with peripheral voters that are less

engaged and particularly in virginia which has a large base of college educated voters. they are likely to play an outside role in the low turnout contest. host: sean is in maryland, independent line. caller: at first i thought mike johnson would unify the republican party and work with the president and democrats to address the issues but then when he supported the impeachment inquiry, i was very disappointed. the way things are pointing the democrats would take the house and keep the senate and white house. republicans don't really understand they are still not getting it that they are ruining their own party by following trump. that's all i have to say, thank you. host: -- guest: the caller did

raise the impeachment inquiry that house republicans are pursuing. it's another fork in the road for the new speaker. most trope -- pro-trump republicans would like to neutralize problems by putting a spotlight on the biden administration. if johnson put safe vote to the floor on articles of impeachment in six months or a year, that does put a number of republicans from swing district in a bit of a bind. even though joe biden's approval rating is in the low 40's, has not rebounded at all from its depths. voters also don't want to go through another impeachment saga and don't really see a clear rationale for why republicans would impeach biden when the real legal hurdles are ones that

hunter biden is facing in delaware right now. polling on impeachment is similar to biden's favorability. it's a perilous vote for a number of those republicans. host: to show folks at home it was the house speaker suggesting hunter biden might be subpoenaed as part of that impeachment inquiry. caller: good morning. you can elect a president, reelect a president, you can remove the president but there's no constitutional provision for overthrowing the vote of 85 million people. so had the republicans been successful, please explain to me what type of government we would have and tell the guy in north carolina the same thing. what kind of government we would

have. a government that vladimir putin could run. guest: the effort in 2020 on the part of republicans to not certify or invalidate votes from arizona and pennsylvania was unprecedented in scale. the series -- the theories former president trump advanced were pretty universally rejected by judges that he himself had appointed. even though there were broad changes to voting modes and participation because of the pandemic, the theories that republicans advance that year were in most cases so preposterous there was only one possible explanation and that was they did not like the results of the election.

there was about one third of their publican party in the house that rejected trump's argument and voted to certify those states. even though our system bent it did not break. host: this week it's being reported rashida tlaib of michigan and marjorie taylor greene will make -- votes. can you explain what that means. guest: if a majority of the house believes a member has said or done brings ill repute to the house they can vote to censure a member. in this case, congresswoman tlaib is under fire from her colleagues for comments regarding the war in israel. and gaza that many republicans believe, and some democrats

believe are anti-semitic. at the end of the day, most democrats are not where the squad is when it comes to calls for a cease-fire. what will be interesting to see the longer the conflict drags on and the more aid that is under consideration for israel, how big of a fracture do you see in the democratic party on this issue and how much support could the president potentially lose on his left among voters, young voters who are more sympathetic to the plight of palestinians in gaza. host: curtis is in florida, independent line. caller: thanks for taking my call. my question, they talk about the pro-trump what are they going to

do to protect those minorities like burnell, a roster faria in in milwaukee who walked up and down the streets with a sign saying vote trump 2020 and was shot to death. whatever did happen to him and what was the outcome of all that. just out of curiosity, thank you. guest: i'm unfamiliar with the incident. host: let's go to new york, this is carol, the democrats line. caller: currently in the 19th congressional district formally ended 22nd congressional district. my question is about mark molinaro and how he will fare in the redistricting and also how he would fare in the general election if he faced a candidate

like the former candidate, it was a very close race. i thought i would ask if you had any hints as to what that brings to us. guest: the caller is from one of the redder counties in this court drawn district which is from a liberal bastion to the hudson valley and some of the more liberal artsy towns. this is one of the very few districts on our list. mark molinaro was a traditional pro federal republican talking about what he's brought to the district rather than culture wars. molinaro faces a rematch against the democratic attorney from ithaca named josh riley.

he raised a lot of money in 2022 and 2024 and this is another contest where redistricting, the specter of democrats redrawing the map cast some uncertainty over the race. if democrats have the opportunity to redraw maybe they would add the city of utica to it, encourage some of the more republican areas in the southern tier of new york and that could make the seat six or seven points bluer and make up some of the deficit riley fell short in 2022. this really highlights the high-stakes of where the boundaries fall. host: this is conrad in tampa, florida. democrats line. caller: good morning. i have a theory, i hope i phrase it right.

the redistricting is an issue that really involves a lot of time and money. i would like to see where we utilize the district that the zip codes define. i hope you could use the zip codes because they are right next to each other like here in tampa start with the district at 33601 and then add the district 33602 until you fulfilled the number you need for whatever district you are looking at. does that make any sense to you? guest: that is the first time i have heard that idea. i'm not sure it would be easy to adopt because i don't imagine zip codes neatly align with the required number of residents for congressional district, all districts must be of equal population, but most of the

redistricting reform proposals that have received consideration highlight the need for access to preserve communities of interest. that is a flexible definition that can be very subjective. there are only a couple of spaces that include competitiveness in their criteria for redrawing maps. california for example their commission is primitive from taking political data for incumbent residency into account whatsoever. colorado and arizona, there redistricting reform stipulates districts should be more competitive and considering the residential sorting of the country we've seen over the last half-century where we have more heavily blue and red areas, it does require perhaps some affirmative action to draw

districts that are evenly divided that give most voters a real choice. part of the reason you see some polarization in the house is in the overwhelming number of districts, the primary election is the only race that matters. so we will be watching whether some of the members with more moderate voting records are migrating from their left or right. host: our guest services -- editor david wasserman, thank you for your time. later on in thprogram we will talk about the former president legal issues. up until then, open for them. is the numbers you can call. 202-748-8001 for republicans. 202-748-8000 for democrats. independents. 202-748-8002.

>> monday, watch c-span series in partnership with the library of congress, books the change america featuring zora neale hurston's novel their eyes were watching god, the stories set in central and southern florida during the jim crow era that explores the aphid and american community, race relations, gender roles and female empowerment. the book is considered a harlem renaissance classic and has been highly influential on african americans and women's literature. professor of history at vanderbilt university will join us on the program to discuss. she's the author of zora neale hurston in the history of southern life. monday, at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. c-span now, our free mobile video app or online at

c-span.org. also be sure to scan the qr code to listen to our companion podcast where you can learn more about the authors of the books featured. live sunday on in-depth. author and former aclu president joins book tv to talk about which he calls civil rights, free speech and sent -- censorship and more. she is the author of inventing pornography and the reason the published free speech, what everyone needs to know. a guide to free speech law and the debate surrounding it. join the conversation with your phone calls, facebook comments and texts. in-depth live at -- on sunday, noon eastern. >> c-span shop.org is c-span's

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at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> washington journal continues. >> if you want to text us you can do that at 202-748-8003. the hill reporting former speaker mccarthy is getting a primary challenger in his reelection race for his house seat. he previously lost in the 13th district and is running as an american first republican who will "fight alongside president trump as he wages war against the corrupt party." he also took direct aim at mccarthy who was ousted from his post. saying the -- he failed the american people by not completing promises. that's one of the races to watch

that play out. we turn to new hampshire, roll call reporting dean phillips announced a primary challenges in new hampshire, the prominent granite state democrat launched a campaign for president joe biden. biden is not purchase a painting in the still on schedule january primary was when not conform to the new primary calendar intended to give south carolina the first state to pick presidential nominees. new hampshire supporters are pushing voters to write the name in. reports show -- as he protects our freedoms and stands up to the mag extremists. built an economy that works for everyone. the political stories laying out in this open forum. democrats line. caller: my main concern going

into 2024 elections is the doubt we have about our election integrity. my husband and i were both poll workers and judge of elections for decades and our system is by far the best. there are layers of checks and balances. it is so disconcerting that people had any doubt about the integrity of our elections and it worries me. host: if this worries you do you think systems have not been improved since then, what are those concerns? caller: the systems are terrific. we have machines that are audited, there are checks and balances and everyone votes.

the concern people had were these provisional ballots. they thought people were voting twice or three times. the provisional ballots comes before a judge, both parties are present, it is so foolproof. very little voter fraud. i'm more concerned with keeping people from voting. closing down polling stations, that's the issue. but the vote is safe. i'm so confident having been part of it just to see the machinations of how the whole thing works. host: david in texas, republican line. caller: yes. the primary problem is the

influence and the gerrymandering. it seems that our democratic process no longer has a core to it because of the opinion aiding that stunned by commentators across the spectrum of the media . we have all been influenced and we've understood there is no rationale any longer. the laws are all manipulated, every person has got their own particular agenda and we have no core, we saw that completely illustrated during trump's administration. there was a conspiracy, there is no doubt there were bureaucrats across the spectrum of the government who exercised all of their options trying to corrupt

him, make him out to be antiestablishment. the january 6 debacle was justified. host: ed is next in pennsylvania, democrats line. you are on, go ahead. caller: i'm a 51 year life member of the nra but i am a staunch democrat. i was a life member of the nra long before the right wing actually took the nra over. the reason i am a democrat is because of the vote for social security medicare and the democrats are definitely giving you union rights.

plus women's rights are really in bad shape today. as far as guns, i am a lifelong hunter. no one has ever tried to take my guns and high-capacity magazines, no one needs those and no one should have those. what happened in maine and newtown really affected me. basically i might have given up my life membership of the nra but i was proud i was in mr nra member. there are some good things about the nra but protecting 30 round clips is not one of them. host: we will hear from james in texas, republican line. caller: i would just like to ask a quick question.

i keep hearing democrats label people like me extremists, right-wing extremists. that guy jeffries can complete an entire sentence without saying right-wing extremist. i would like to know if i am considered an extremist because i support donald trump, what does that make democrats who think killing a child before it is born is not extreme but a wonderful thing. host: that's james in texas. a couple of op-ed's for the wall street journal, the prime minister of israel, the battle for civilization is what he writes saying iran has formed the access of terror by arming, training hezbollah and other terror beyond. was fighting the emily --

enemies of civilization. hamas will continue to employ this tool of terror and continue to use basements and gaza hospitals as command posts. it will use mosques as fortified military outposts and weapon depots and will continue to steal fuel and humanitarian assistance. a hearinget to take place at 9: this morning. emergency aid for israel and ukraine, it will feature the secretary of state and the defense secretary. you can see that hearing on c-span3, you can follow along on c-span now and also follow along on c-span.org. national security secretary also with an op-ed taking a look at the topic of border security. the headline, congressman take -- must take border security

into the 21st century. the hiring and employment of border patrol agents, 27 hundred asylum officers and staff that will -- with temporary holding facilities and individuals placed in expedited removal proceedings. it will provide 1.4 billion to the cities that need additional support for authorization documents, to be clear the supplemental funding is like a turning kit, critical and the short-term. the secretary will appear along with the fbi director when it comes to homeland security threats. 10:00 today is when you can see that hearing right after this program on our main channel c-span. from north carolina, the independent line.

caller: i have two quick points. the trump trial coming up soon. that was put in place to keep confederate soldiers from resurfacing and starting over again. an insurrection -- they would have been taking capitol police prisoners, they would've had hostages. they would've had weapons. would not have brought their lunch. we have a protest that turned into a riot. host: go ahead. caller: we can stay on that topic if you like. host: go ahead. caller: mccartney was not in favor with a lot of republicans because he sided with democrats on a lot of things. he was very loose with them. he was extending a hand of

friendship. i don't understand why as democrats they had this slash and burn mentality of anything republican. every single one voted against him. they did not look at the fact that republicans were upset with him for being pro-democrat. host: that is gary. if you want to stick around in the next segment coming up in 15 minutes a review of president trump's legal issues with hugo lowell of the guardian. patrick is next in new york on the republican line. caller: no, it's a democratic line. host: is this patrick in new york? caller: i'm a democrat, not a republican. host: you are calling on the republican line. i have to ask you to call back on the right line. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8002 for independents.

monty in arizona on the independent line. caller: yes. i'm getting a little concerned about some of the things going on, especially about the election and the way it is structured in the constitution. they are to be run by the states is what my understanding is. it seems like people in congress are trying to get involved to the point where congress can decertify when it is spelled out that the elections are run by states and the results are read into congress. i'm hearing things like congress is going to be able through some mechanism to possibly stand up and say we can decertify an election. i just don't think -- i don't like the direction that is

heading. people talk about, you know, the constitution and what it says. a lot of the things -- cases brought up against it in 2020 was all based upon theories. they were all rejected. i'm just getting concerned about some of the things going on with the congressional situation. that's all i got to say. host: one of the things to watch out for this week in the house is the vote concerning israel funding. a follow-up story on politico this morning saying mitch mcconnell is abandoning his typical cautious style when it

comes to 80 ukraine, shrugging off -- aiding ukraine despite a painful rift in the party. he is at odds with the new republican speaker mike johnson who wants to split off israel aid from ukraine funding rather than fund a national security package. the gop leader faces brewing discontent with his conference that is buzzing over whether to stick with mcconnell or side with conservatives who want a strategy change in ukraine. he was in louisville, kentucky yesterday. he spoke about funding for ukraine, calling out politicians who want to put what he says is on the back burner. here is some of the senate minority leader's comments from yesterday. [video] >> loud voices on both sides of the aisle are suggesting american leadership somehow is not worth the cost. some say our support for ukraine comes at the expense of more important priorities.

as i have said every time i got the chance, this is a false choice. a false choice. america is a global superpower with global interests. and enemies of democracy around the world would like nothing more than to outlast our resolve to resist russian aggression. so let's remember what is at stake here. russian victory in ukraine would imperil the security and economy of all of europe. our largest trading partner and strategic ally since world war ii. and it would endanger our own economic growth here at home. if russia prevails there is no question that putin's appetite for power will extend to nato, raising the threat to

the trans atlantic alliance and the risk of war for us. such an outcome would demand rate are deployment of our military force in europe, a much greater cost than the support we have provided to ukraine. of course, russian victory would embolden putin growing alliance with fellow authoritarian regimes in iran and china. think of it as an axis of evil. china, russia and iran. this is not just a test for ukraine. it is a test for the united states and for the free world. host: you can see that out our website and our app. the previous segment we talked about mike johnson unveiling that $14.3 billion israel aid

package which he wants to have paid for by cuts to the irs, saying the supplement of request would be part -- supplemental request. the house can fund -- johnson looks to make a second major piece of legislation. the cost of the bill would be offset by cutting mr. biden's inflation reduction act by rescinding $14.3 billion from the internal revenue service, something democrats boasted about but conservatives have opposed. it could help win over conservatives who said they do not believe they should fund a foreign country's war while the country is in debt. you can read more at the washington examiner's website. doug in virginia on the republican line. caller: good morning. one thing we need to do is stop this arguing over we find ukraine or israel. we have to. we have no choice. the second thing is, we can stop

the election fraud. i served 30 years in the military. people need to go to the polls and vote in person and show your id and there will not be any question. you don't need to do early voting, absent voting. people put their lives in the line so you have the right to go vote. at least show respect for them and go vote. it is very simple. we have got to get this country back where it was before we have a nuclear war. host: from florida, democrats line. sean is next. caller: i have a just and for the cdc. there is a willingness to borrow money for israel and ukraine. how about the tax credit and increasing snap benefits? thank you. host: lawrence in north carolina, independent line.

lawrence in north carolina, independent line? caller: yes. i am calling concerning what is happening to our food. i live in an agricultural community. all the chemicals that are sprayed on crops is affecting the wildlife. i no longer see snakes, frogs, turtles or anything in our community. it is getting into the human population. this is something we should be really concerned with. thank you. host: hue in tennessee on the republican line. caller: yes. concerning the package president biden has sent to congress for israel aid and ukraine aid and

some disaster relief and maybe some other things, that package will pass essentially untouched from the where the president has resented it because the senate will ensure it does regardless of what the house is proposing by cutting the irs funds and so forth. the senate will counteract what the house is doing so no one should worry about that. with regard to any government shutdown, they will at least have a cr passed and the government will not shut down for another period of time. no one should be concerned about what the house leader is proposing at this time. thank you. host: one thing unveiled by the biden administration yesterday was the effort to combat

anti-semitism on college campuses. nbc picking up that story. this is after an alarming uptick in incidents since the israel-hamas were started. the department of justice and home and security are partnering with law enforcement to track eight related threats and provide federal resources to schools according to the plan shared with nbc news. it was at the white house yesterday the press secretary karine john deere talked about the -- karine jean-pierre talked about the policy. [video] >> the administration is taking multiple actions to address this alarming rise. president biden has been clear we cannot stand by and stand silent in the face of hate. we must without equivocation denounced anti-semitism. we must also without equivocation denounce islamophobia. following the october 7 attack, they have taken steps to ensure

campus law enforcement is included in engagements with state and local law enforcement and have taken numerous steps to provide outreach and support directly to campuses. the department of education is expediting the process of making it easier for students and others who experience anti-semitism, islamophobia or other discriminative asian -- discrimination to file a complaint under title vi of the 1964 civil rights act. this week senior administration leaders are discussing the threat of anti-says autism -- anti-semitism on campuses and what the administration is doing to act in the upcoming days and weeks. they will continue to work to combat anti-semitism at all hate fueled violence on schools and college campuses. host: more available to you if you want to see it at our website, c-span.org, and the app at c-span now.

in michigan, republican line. we will hear from tim. caller: yeah. it is weird that hershey to toledo is -- rashida tlaib is out here supporting hamas with the rest of the poor democratic party. they do like the speaker -- they don't like the speaker. all the things in school with prayer and the flag and stuff like that. it has all been taken away. now we have these foreign entities in our schools, colleges, all through our government. they are trying to destroy the american way. i believe that israel needs to get rid of hamas. if hezbollah gets into it, they

need to be taken out. iran is a supporter of all this with isis and the taliban. they all need to be taken out and leveled off. russia and china are involved, too. joe biden hated benjamin yet know who -- benjamin netanyahu when he first came into office. now he found out that joe biden has given a bunch of money to iran that supported hamas and all the garbage going on right now. rashida toledo needs -- talib needs to be taken out of office and put in jail for the insurrection that happened on january -- host: look for that to be played out in the house. about centered on representative marjorie taylor greene of georgia. the associated press reporting democrats that they plan to subpoena republican mega donor

harlan crow and leonard leo before more information about their involvement in paying for luxury travel for supreme court justices. it comes as the court is being pressed about an ethics code which is endorsed by three of the nine justices. they could act this week to authorize senator dick durbin to issue those subpoenas to crow, leo and another wealthy donor. one more call from manhattan, kansas. democrats line. this is james. caller: hello. how are you? host: i'm fine, thank you. caller: i was going to mention that not everyone is capable of going to the polls. some of us are severely disabled. mail-in ballots are necessary. thank you, pedro. host: james and kansas -- in

kansas finishing the segment off. our next guest will walk through the various legal scenarios and cases facing former president trump. hugo lowell of the guardian will give us that rundown when washington journal continues. ♪ >> c-span's studentcam documentary competition is back, celebrating 20 years with this year's theme, looking forward while considering the past. we are asking students to create a five to six minute video addressing one of these questions. in the next 20 years worth of most important change you would like to see in america, or, what has been the most important change in america? as we do each year we are giving away $100,000 in total prizes for the grand prize of $5,000.

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washington journal, important congressional hearings and public affairs throughout the day, and weekdays at 5:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. eastern catch washington today for a fast-paced report of the stories of the day. listen to c-span anytime. just tell your smart speaker to play c-span radio. c-span, powered by cable. >> washington journal continues. host: our guest is hugo lowell with the guardian, a political reporter and one of the things he's been doing is tracking the various legal cases featuring the former president donald trump. thank you for joining us. guest: thanks for having me. host: the overview of the cases that are facing the former president. guest: we have terminal cases and -- criminal cases that are complicated. we have one in fort pierce and the southern district of florida, the documents case. we are in the middle of the pretrial phase. there's a lot of scheduling issues that have come up.

ndc -- in d.c., the federal election case. the judge has been re-imposing a gag order on the former president as a result of his social media post. we also have the fulton county case in atlanta, the case brought by the district attorney. what we are currently seeing is a lot of these defendants, lower-level defendants at least taking plea deals to try to evade some sort of felony trial they will have to go through. especially under the racketeering charge. host: let's start with georgia. given overview of who has taken the deal and why they have taken it. guest: we started off with 19 codefendants including trump and mark meadows, john eastman. the big fish have not been offered deals. that is causing some consternation. they think they are being forced to go to trial. if you look at the lower the

defendants, the people like jenna ellis, kenneth chesbro, the trump lawyers involved in writing legal memos, that kind of touched on the applicable element, they have been offered deals and they have generally taken them. they had to plead guilty to one felony count in they had to write an apology letter and had to agree to provide future testimony in the cases coming in. this is how the d.a. and fulton county likes to operate. in the racketeering conspiracy, you take lower-level people and get them to flip on the higher-level people. you work your way up the ladder. host: to jenna ellis and kenneth chessmen -- chesbro, talk about the deal they took and why it is significant. guest: we don't know the precise details of what they will have to do in terms of cooperating. they did plead guilty to a felony. the felony is significant

because it has to do with the fay collector scheme. kenneth chesbro in particular, the guy thought of as the architect. he conceived of the idea of having these alternate slates of electors sent to washington. he has admitted those slates were for gillette. that's a big -- fraudulent. when trump now goes to trial, mark meadows goes to trial, kenneth chesbro has provided a sworn statement to the d.a. saying yes, as a person involved in this i attest they were fraudulent and that will be very difficult to rebut when trump goes to trial and his lawyer says kenneth chesbro is not on the truth because he provided that sworn statement. host: jenna ellis? guest: she was not directly to do with the fay collector scheme but she played these -- fake electors schemes which he played a role in the conspiracies with respect to submitting false

statements to the georgia state legislature, submitting false statements with the rudy giuliani and sidney powell. you see how the d.a. is moving up the ranks. she has at least three lawyers involved in the 2020 election effort to plead guilty. host: how many accounts are against the former president and georgia? what if he is found guilty on those counts? guest: i don't recall the number because there are so many out of all the cases. the top level charge is racketeering conspiracy. that's a big deal. under georgia state law the d.a. has to show a pattern of racketeering activities as predicated on at least two predicates, two qualifying crimes. there are multiple qualifying crimes here. even if trump knocked out something like computer trespass in neighboring coffee county when they were trying to breach the data in the voting machines, there are still multiple counts

the d.a. can choose from to go to trial with on a rico case. that will be the biggest problem for him. host: our guest is here to talk about various legal cases against the former president. if you want to ask questions, (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8002 for independents. you can text us those questions that (202) 748-8003. you told me before the start of the segment you are on a flight to cover another aspect of the legal cases. what is the significance? guest: tomorrow we have a hearing in the document cates and forth here's -- in fort pierce in front of the judge that came at a screening because she was showing favorable rulings to the former president before she was overruled at the 11th circuit. tomorrow we have a hearing about scheduling. it's important because part of trump's strategy in the federal cases has been to try to delay

things and push things back beyond the election. he think that he wins, even if the cases are not resolved, he can shut them down. that is what he's aiming for. he wants the issue to mark -- what is at issue tomorrow is a complicated procedure called the procedures act. that is the pretrial step by which the government has to go through in order to present classified material at trial. in the mar-a-lago case this will be really key. what trumps lawyers are saying is we have not gotten all the discovery yet. there have been issues with discovery. the secure facility where they can review the document has not been constructed yet for the judge. there are issues that have cropped up that have started to push the trial date. the reason this is significant is if the judge tomorrow decides she will continue some of these deadlines to do with how the defense can review the

classified documents at issue, that can push the entire schedule out. if we are a month or two months pushed back in terms of a deadline, the effect will be on the backend one the try will be currently scheduled for may to be pushed closer to the election. host: remind people by he's under trial and the first place for the documents. guest: it has to do with trump's retention of national defense information. even now sometimes it is difficult to comprehend the kind of documents he had at mar-a-lago. these are documents that are u.s. secrets on other nations' nuclear capabilities, military plans for iran, u.s. retaliatory steps they might take in the effect of an attack. these are really sensitive documents. so sensitive that some of the prosecution team at the department of justice and fbi

needed to be read into extra specially classified programs for the kitty review the evidence -- before they could even review the evidence. there is also the obstruction which is key to this case and a loose string that unraveled the entire thing. trump was issued a subpoena. he did not fully comply with them. the fbi has probable cause to search mar-a-lago. when they did they found these extra classified documents. when you don't cooperate with a federal grand jury subpoena, that gets you in trouble. host: how has she performed her tasks to date? guest: difficult to tell. we have only had a couple of open hearings. a lot of it has been under seal and taking place behind closed doors because of the nature of the classified documents and the case. she's had several rulings which have been fair. she had one when she came under criticism when she set the

initial deadlines because the government wanted an expedited trial. they wanted everything done by december. that clearly did not happen but he she did not give --but she did not give trump exactly what he wanted. his suggestion was let's not have a trial at all. she did not go with that. she set a trial date for may. we had another hearing to do with conflict between one of the codefendants. she result that pretty straightforwardly. host: hugo lowell with us to take your questions on these various legal cases. tina and alabama, republican line. you are on with our guest. caller: good morning to both of you dumb and. -- gentlemen. barack obama in his last months in office was asked if he was moving up to the hamptons or staying in washington, d.c. he said he would stay in washington and go back to community organizing. that meant before he was involved in voter -- voter rolls

and increasing the vote. also the companies he was involved with that ethics problems. is anybody interviewed him about antifa and blm and how successful he is being? host: the focus is on the former president donald trump. do you have a question directed to that? caller: yes. the riots on january 6 had all the markings of antifa. the total vocabulary changed from nice calm taxpaying citizen to an f you and the math. they were dressed like they were going to be good citizens. i think they were infiltrators. guest: i think the thing january 6 -- in the main what we are

seeing from the fbi prosecution and the hundreds of cases brought before the d.c. district court here is that in the main they were real trump supporters, real maga people. at the core of it where the two groups, the proud boys and oath keepers. they have both been convicted of seditious conspiracy. i don't think there's any real doubt as to the identity and ideological makeup of the people who stormed the capitol. there's is not much evidence to suggest they were blm activists or nt for activists. there were some people that were fbi informants in the crowd that day but they were not being directly handled by the fbi when they were storming the capitol. they had a history of cooperating with the government but that's it and that the fundamental makeup of the january 6 proud. host: evan in texas. caller: i have been watching all

the trials and cases thus far that are going on. as someone who is active lyrically and in the legal world i'm very concerned we have been taking a light hand to how we are handling all of trump owes cases, allowing him -- trump's cases, allowing him to say and do what he does. i understand it is a type of strategy to let him tie that rope on his own. in the course of doing so it is damaging, in my opinion, the process. is there any way y'all see a path where judges, prosecutors and anyone else involved is going to take a harder hand to prevent the former president trump damaging the integrity of

our institutions going forward? guest: we are already seeing some of this in terms of the d.c. case. the judge has reimposed a gag order that prohibits trump from assailing the prosecutors, the court staff and potential trial witnesses. if he violates that going forward, it will lead to increased sanctions. we have seen evidence of that in the new york civil case. there was a gag order imposed there. he violated that on truth social posts and he was fined $15,000. it's important judges go through the process of laying down orders, escalating sanctions if violated. you don't to just throw him in jail. some people have the idea he needs to go straight to jail.

what that does is sets up a recourse for him on appeal. i did not get my due process. the punishment for me speaking out once or twice or multiple times is not for me to be incarcerated. by going through the judicial process it actually gives the government and the court space to be above reproach down the line. host: if i remember the former president's lawyers have argued on first amendment issues as far as against these gag order's. hasn't made traction as far as those arguments? guest: we heard that in d.c. repeatedly. trump's attorney talked about mike pence. trump needed to be able to debate him vigorously. some of those are givens have been necessarily finished because pence is no longer a candidate. as you see others drop out you will see the effect happening more and more. the other thing that is interesting as there is an argument on trump's side that is

not entirely wrong. someone like bill barr or mark meadows really intimidated if trump sends a truth social post? she was trying to prohibit trump from intimidating lesser high-profile witnesses because trump doesn't have that effect of sending outposts and that reverberates down the line. host: greg from florida on the independent line. caller: good morning. it is my understanding that district attorney willis has hired outside attorney help to help her prosecute this case. that number was somewhere between $500,000 and $1 million. the county commission approved the expenditure for her to do that? guest: i don't know about the specific dollar figures. we are not party to that.

it is very routine for prosecutors to hire external counsel to help them with cases. in this case there are multiple people who have been detailed to the team. we see them in trial court. we see them writing briefs and motions. if you look at the -- it is a different tone because it is doj. the special counsel's office is made up from attorneys across -- a lot of these prosecution teams are formed of trial attorneys that have experience in relevant areas. we have the house counsel to help them and it is standard practice. host: richard and savannah on the republican line. -- in savannah on the republican line. caller: my question is the

fairness of the trial itself. i think the major problem is disney owns abc and universal owns nbc, msnbc. warner owns cnn. you have coverage that is so bias. you have d.a.s that campaigned on getting trump, like the one in new york. there was one in atlanta that is total against trump, etc. i don't understand why we can't let people decide who they want to vote on. my main problem, the last statement is you have got people like in the past putin and stalin and hitler who through their opposition in jail and that's what i'm seeing here. guest: the concerns on the covers are fair. there is a lot of discussion on cable news about these cases.

what we have seen repeatedly in the criminal trials is a lot of these january 6 rioters it fair jurors. you go through the jury's election process. if you have a problem with that, you have a problem with the judicial process in the country as a whole, not with trump. trump has it both ways. in d.c., he might say he has a biased jury pool because d.c. heavily skews democratic. in the documents case, he is a jury pool that is ruby red. i think in the main what happens is you have a jury selection process where it filters out people with inherent biases and generally juries can assess the facts and come to their conclusions. host: we saw the name michael cohen reemerge.

why is he back in the news? guest: he was a witness for the state of new york. he was on the stand in new york last week getting basically testifying that the reason why the numbers were inflated on trump's books is because trump would give them a network he wanted to reach an michael cohen would go back and try to massage the numbers on the books to that figure. he basically laid all the blame at trump's feet. michael cohen on cross-examination that have to give up that he had lied to a federal judge in a previous incident that we did not know about. there was some scope for his witness testimony to be -- the blockbuster testimony will be this week and next week when the trump children have to testify. we have don jr. and eric coming up, trump himself. ivanka ivanka trump will have to

testify. she is separate because of a statute of limitation. her service in the trump organization was beyond the statute of limitations for this current case. that does not mean she cannot testify. she will be on the stand. one the children are on the stand it will be really difficult for trump because they are his kids. they have intimate knowledge of the businesses. they have to make a decision. if they are asked a tricky question do they take the fifth or answer it truthfully and honestly? unlike a civil case, especially in new york, you are allowed a bench trial to draw adverse inferences from people pleading the fifth because they have something to hide. host: a bench trial means the judge will solely decide the fate of the former president. guest: right. the judge has already decided trump and the trump organization engaged in fraud. we are looking at the equivalent

of what damages are and how much he will have to pay and how that will be settled. whether he will have to pay out to shareholders before the business licenses are liquidated. it's a question of how much does each group get. host: it was last week with the former president before cameras in part to criticize michael cohen. here are part of his comments from last week. [video] >> as you know and i say it again and again, i've never seen anything like it. this is a trial that should've never been brought. if it had a jury it would have been fair at least. no negative jury would vote against me. this judge will. this is a very partisan judge with a person very partisan sitting alongside them. even more partisan than he is. we are doing very well.

he's a totally discredited witness. you have not seen anything yet. he's a totally discredited witness. the fact that the statute was used to sue donald trump has never been used before. they used a statute that has never been used before because they did not want to have a jury. the statute does not allow a jury. it discusses things that are much different than anybody would think is really from a fascist country. that is what they are doing. it is election interference. they are doing it for that reason. they are doing it because they are losing at the polls. they are doing it because our country is going to hell. our country has become a laughing stock all over the world and this is why they do this, and other litigation. we will win. ultimately we will win because the facts are on our side to a level that nobody has ever seen anything like it before. this was a case that never

should have been brought. it was a case that should have had a jury. we don't have the option of even thinking about a jury. we have a very biased attorney general -- and corrupt attorney general who brought this case so she could be governor. she failed and she continues on this case. host: hugo lowell, a lot therefrom the former president. guest: the set up of the trial is really key. the fact that we don't have a jury is specific here for several reasons. number one, they did not request a jury trial. the judge clarified that heather requested a jury, he would probably not grant it and it would be a bench trial where the judge ruled. that is the first thing trump was confining about. the second is about how the case was brought by the new york attorney general. he is complaining about the fact

it was a statute that is hardly used. that is fair. it is a complex statute concerning bookkeeping. the facts of the case remain the same, which is he inflated his net worth and inflated his net worth to different people. he would claim that his net worth was much higher than it actually was. to the banks he would say trump tower was 20,000 more square feet larger than it actually was but he would turn around and then go back to the irs and say it is much smaller. the size of these properties he owned is much smaller. that way he could get a lower tax bracket while also reaping the benefits on bank side where he would say i have this net worth and ability to get better

rates for my loans. what the new york ag is prosecuting here is for statements to deal with the fact he was trying to have two things at the same time. host: jonathan in texas on the democrats line. caller: thank you for taking my call. to the donovan that called from georgia, it has been interesting for me to watch the scenario play out with donald trump. it's amazing people looking on the case, specifically in georgia where you had 19 people charged with the fake collector -- fake collector voting -- elector voting machines. now they are jumping off like cockroaches and pleading down to misdemeanors in lieu of testimony against donald trump. it has been interesting to note you see a lot of people who are really good people at heart. he was able to -- their

morality, their sense of righteousness, and ultimately their dignity by coming up with conspiracy theories and protecting him to no end. he came out and said just give me 11,300 votes or whatever it was. i have a problem with that. whether you are democrat or republican, if you strip away his title as a republican and just look at the man, the man himself, ask yourself one question. is he a moral man? does he have integrity? does he exhibit fairness? absolutely not. that is the, die have. host: jonathan in texas. guest: first of all, it should not be -- just because they took plea deals does not mean they will testify down the line. i think it is likely you will see people like kenneth chesbro

and jenna ellis and sidney powell testify against trump. that is really powerful. to have your own former lawyers testify against you, especially in a jury trial that trump desperately once in new york and gets that in fulton county, that will be devastating for him. i don't think i should be lost on people. that is the issue that underscores all of this. he has real people testifying against him. the evidence is extremely strong where they are trying to prove racketeering and conspiracy and some counts and that ricoh that has been charged that others have already pled r -- rico that has been charge that others have already pleaded guilty to. host: bill in illinois. caller: my question to the investigator is with these cases going on in washington, georgia, in florida, the federal

cases, i wanted his opinion on what the evidence and the way the trial is going. is there a strong chance -- well, is there the prosecution -- do they have a strong case against mr. trump/ ? is he going to skate by like he has in the past with every other legal issue he's been involved in? he seems to be like that one gangster that used to call him teflon don. you could not pin anything on him. finally they did put him in jail but it seems like the former president, who in my opinion is an embarrassment to our nation and our country, is there a strong case he will get

convicted on something? or, is he just going to walk by and beat trump like him and his father was years ago in new york with their dealings? host: thanks. guest: that is up to a jury to decide in all of these cases. if you take each of them step-by-step, the classified documents case, the two charges that are big for him is a retention of the classified documents. he retained the documents because they were found at his house, at mar-a-lago and the fbi seized them. if he satisfies the other element of the crime, that is up to the jury. was this really national defense information? the argument is that some of the documents were from 2018 or even older and they might not be current intelligence. can they be classified or deemed as --?

that is the legal standard at issue. on the obstruction side, that is up to the jury to decide if the evidence shown by the government is sufficient beyond a reasonable doubt. do they have strong evidence that trump wanted one of his aides to destroy surveillance footage. there's a passage in the superseding indictment relates to the i.t. director at mar-a-lago being told the boss wants you to delete the tapes. is that enough? are we going to say the boss is definitely trump? that is for the government to show. that is the sort of thing that comes up at trial. i think there is an argument they will make. it does not mean the government's case is strong or weak. host: susan in indiana on the republican line. caller: good morning, judgment. three quick points. -- good morning, gentlemen.

the people being held in jail for january 6 things, some have been held for over 1000 days. the fifth of, does not allow that. the other thing i wanted to mention is that as far as the national archives go with the documents case, the archival -- the national archives people never helped trump pack. they helped every other president since their inception but they never helped trump pack his documents. the other last point quickly is that if you go online you can see -- it's on youtube. 12 minutes of democrats denying election results. all these people who think that trump is the only --trump was the only one that denied elections, this is 12 minutes of democrats denying election results. host: that is susan in indiana. let's start with the last one. when it comes to january 6, what

is the former president being looked at for? guest: he is specifically not being charged for propagating claims about the election. the special counsel is clear about that. it is stuff like conspiracy against rights, obstructing the certification on january 6. there is a lot of cases and president now on that. title 181512 charge that is the obstruction charge. all they have to show is trump improperly tried to get a corrupt benefit, that's the standard, and stopped an official proceeding. it is quite clear he was trying to stop a proceeding. he was on the phone calling up senators and members of congress saying stop the count. delay the certification. that is why that 1512 12 count is so problematic for him. the january 6 rioters in jail,

that's an extremely small proportion of everyone who has been charged. a lot of the defendants are getting released on bond. the people in jail have violated orders and held in contempt. even then they are not really being held at the d.c. jail. there in places like rappahannock and in virginia. on the last point about the national archives, the national archives is not there to help pack up administrations. that is done by aides. the reason why it was so chaotic at the end of the trumpet administration was because he did not make preparations to leave. there was no formal transition process and everything got done at the last minute and put in boxes and shipped donda merrill lago. -- shipped down to mar-a-lago. the national archives is asking that you return official white house documents and the doj said we ask that you comply with the

federal grand jury. host: the former president and supporters take a look at president biden saying documents are found in his property but the treatment was different. what do you make of those comparisons? guest: they are not like cases. when the department of justice prosecutes classified documents or espionage act violations, they look at multiple cases with aggravating factors. was there evidence of disloyalty to the united states? evidence of extremely large number of documents? in trump posey case -- in trump's case there were hundreds of documents. he did not comply with the subpoena. when you look at the aggravating factors, put trump side-by-side with biden, it is clear that trump's case attracted prosecutors in the way biden's does not. biden's seems inadvertent. they are still interviewing people. the cases are not comparable. host: from oregon, democrats

line, will. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. good morning, pedro and hugo. those people who like donald trump seem to be like donald trump. there is a commonality of methodology and statement. i have been watching this whole episode whether great deal of interest in detail. i believe that donald trump is guilty of all 91 of those felonies, if not more. i think perhaps guantanamo bay would be a nice resort for him to hang out in for the rest of his life. as far as the other things he may have done that we don't know about, there is peter navarro and covid. i have got to say it looks like the same episode -- a shameful episode for the united states

once again if you look at the details. guest: the criminal cases that trump faces when they go to trial, if he is convicted and it is sustained upon appeal, that is when the sentencing will occur. i think a lot of people who think that the former president should be put in jail, the likelihood of that happening is not that great. i don't think this country is prepared to put former president in jail. it is not impossible. all the legal experts, all the people who used work at the doj and the bureau of prisons find it difficult to imagine a scenario where trump is put in jail if convicted. he has a secret service detail. will he have his detail it with him in a federal penitentiary? it seems unlikely. host: from melissa from iowa, independent line. caller: thanks for taking my call. i really like how they are

showing the true double standard when it comes to political individuals or just individuals throughout the united states. you had aoc stop the supreme court from actually handling the business and shouting that process down. what happened to her? nothing. you guys say that donald trump shut down the process on january 6 when he did not shut down the process. he said let's go and peacefully protest. what other individuals do is what other individuals do. he can't control that. as far as the paperwork goes, there was paperwork found in biden's garage. there was paperwork found in bins. there is paperwork obama has not given over because he was waiting for his new library to be built. it still has never been happening. therefore there are 13,000 documents he has.

it is a total double standard. this government is showing everybody in the united states how much of a double standard there is here. it depends on who you are. guest: i'm not clear there is a double standard . in terms of january 6, trump was making phone calls to the members of congress, the vice president, the senators. his lawyers are making the same calls saying delay the certification. that is enough under the obstructions statute. aoc was not making phone calls to members of congress. as for the classified documents, we just discussed this. with biden and pence and obama there will always be classified documents and other white house materials that get shipped to the wrong place during the transition. the national archives was willing to accept that with trump as well. trump got a year to sort through

boxes of mar-a-lago, return him and he would have been fine. he was fine up until the grand jury subpoena. even after the subpoena, which none of the other former presidents were issued, there was always an opportunity for his lawyers to say we inadvertently have more classified documents. let me send them back to you because that shows willful return. he's charged with willful retention. host: we are minutes away from looking at the homeland security threats with secretaries ray and may orca -- majorca. in michigan, roy. go ahead. caller: i think the former president is more worried about the fraud case in new york which he stands to lose a large portion of his empire maybe. i was wondering what you think about that. guest: i think it is. we speak to trump's aides.

this case weighs on him personally. his entire business empire in new york. when he is convicted here and the temperatures are decided he could be he loses all of his certificates to have a business in new york, to be eight in executive of a company new york. we have seen him create shell companies in places like delaware because he's trying to inflate himself. it's a real body blow to him. it is a family business. this is what he is known for and created. even if he goes to the shell companies, he's not allowed to do business in new york anymore. that cuts at the heart of his own personal identity. compounded by the fact you have your own kids on the stand testifying against you or the organization potentially, i think he's extreme the concerned about that. he is always extreme the concerned about whatever is she was gripping him in that moment.

six month, 12 month down the line if the criminal cases are ongoing or convicted or under appeal, what have you, that will weigh on his psyche. he is someone who things about what is happening next. in the fulton county case, a week before he was nothing concerned. the night before he was actually concerned and that is human nature. host: from teresa in new jersey, democrats line. caller: yes, hello. host: go ahead. caller: i have a question. there was an article in the new york times by one of the attorneys, the defense attorneys, mr. lauro. it laid out his expected defense in the election interference trial. what i have been tracing through the articles about in the new york times mostly and i learned