continues. host: welcome back. we're joined now by jason steinhauer, who is with the woodrow wilson center and a global fellow there and also author of the book "history disrupted: how social media and the world wide web have change the past." good morning. guest: thank you for having me. host: you call yourself a public historian. can you explain what that is? guest: sure. people are familiar with the fact that there are historians.

people may associate stories with working inside universities, writing academic articles, teaching to students, performing community service, and that is a large contingent of the profession, but there are others who work in more public facing roles at museums, archives, libraries, inside federal government, inside a state government, and national parks. if viewers go to national parks, they can get towards from guides. those are often public historians. it is a profession that focuses on the public-facing aspect of what we do, engaging with public audiences, and public historians are responsible for museum exhibits we see in the smithsonian. they responsible for all kinds of monuments and memorials that we see across the united states and around the world. it is a large contingent of our field, and that if they field i came from. i started at a museum, worked in the library of congress for a while, and now i do work through the wilson center and others. host: in addition to your book,

you have a sub stack, and on that subsector you recently wrote a piece looking at the historic conflict between israel and hamas. why did you decide to do that now? guest: when the october 7 attack happened in israel, i was traveling in europe. as the news was coming in and as the information about the atrocities were starting to be revealed, i had this moment where imy grandmother was a holt survivor, she was from poland and for 10 years of her life, she was on the run from people who wanted to kill her. she initially had to flee into the woods. she was in the woods for a while. she went back into the woods with the partisans and even though she survived the war, she went back to her home and tried to reclaim property and local polish citizens tried to kill her so she was on the run again. she was on the run for 10 years,

across europe and eventually settling in a refugee camp in germany where my mother was born and eventually found her way to canada. i thought about that story, my grandmother's experience and i thought about all the times in history where jews have had to flee, have had to run from those who would try and do us harm, and in the october 7 attacks, i saw that again. i wanted to share that perspective with my readers. just so that they were aware of it. that there was this history, that there was this generational trauma, that there was this sort of narrative, this story of judah being persecuted, being chased after, being murdered and squandered in a variety of different contexts and that really does affect the way many jews and israelis see this conflict and understand the

current situation we are in. i wanted to share that perspective with my readers and i understand it is a perspective that is sort of unique to me and to my experience and my family, but i've been really pleased and gratified with the response it has gotten. a lot of people have written me from all over the world, thanking me for expressing it and for sharing that story, even people that have a different interpretation of the events that are unfolding have written me to thank me for sharing that story. i think it is an example of how there are possibilities to bridge these divides between us and there are ways to use stories and history and language as a way to build bridges and find ways to connect, even on a conflict where we are, as fiercely divided as this one. it has been very heartwarming to me, to see the reaction and to know that there are ways we can talk about this issue across ideological and political lines. host: you write lovingly about

your grandmother and her very strong connection to israel itself. can you -- can you talk about why that was so important to her and how that informed what you were writing? guest: my grandmother never wanted to talk about what happened during the holocaust. it was too painful. but she did always want to talk about israel. one of the reason she wanted to talk about israel was from her perspective, israel offered what she never had, which was a secure place to be jewish. a secure place to live among the jewish people, to celebrate the holidays, to have the customs, keep the traditions going, and to have that sense of peace and security, and that is what was taken from her during the holocaust. that is what she worked her entire life to rebuild after the holocaust, after being on the run for 10 years. she saw that in israel. i think a lot of juice around the world also see that in israel which is why one of the

reasons why the recent attacks have been very upsetting, because israel is for many jews, a place where they do feel like they can be safe to be jewish. they can walk around, they can practice the customs, do the traditions. there will be a place of security and safety there, that they can just be who they are and live freely and securely. to be our people inside of our homeland. i think the attacks have really unsettled us in some ways, because of that and also some of the responses we have seen to the attacks, where people have called for juice to be killed or eliminated -- jews to be killed or eliminated. something else that i wrote about, if i grandmother were alive today, i think what is happening in israel and around the world in some parts with the anti-semitism we are seeing would be distressing to her and

would probably bring back memories of the second world war and what she was running from and what she tried her whole life to reestablish, which was a safe and secure jewish life. host: people looking at this from the outside, how does that connection that you describe by jews to the state of israel like your grand mother had as well as the sense of always having to run, how do you think that informs the response we are seeing by the israeli government to this attack? guest: i think it plays a role. i am an american. i don't have any connections to the israeli government. i don't have any inroads to the conversations happening within the government, so i can't speak them and i don't know what their strategy is and what their mission is, in particular. i know the broad mission is to eliminate hamas but i don't know how they plan to do that. i would think that absolutely part of the response here is to demonstrate to hamas that israel

is not going to run. israel is going to stand in place and defend its people,, and going to do everything in its power to continue to be a safe and secure place for jews to live and worship. and not just jews. israel today is a multicultural democracy. all kinds of people live in israel. there are thai immigrants, african immigrants. israeli arabs. i think part of the response is to say to hamas, we are not going to run. we are going to stand and fight. we are going to make sure our people are safe and secure, and that they can live freely and live safely in our country. i think that is certainly part of informing what we are seeing unfold. my hope personally is that all people have that, whether you

are in gaza or israel or the west bank or anywhere in the world. freedom, peace, stability, security and those are all things that we all aspire to and my ultimate hope for all of this is that we somehow get closer to peace and we somehow get closer to a resolution where we don't have to fight anymore, where there are no more wars or atrocities and people can live happily, freely, securely in peace. host: we're going to be taking your calls on this topic as well. as normal, our call lines are for democrats, (202)-748-8000. republicans, (202)-748-8001. independents, (202)-748-8002. and if you are calling from outside the u.s., you can also reach us at (202)-748-8003. before we get to those calls, i want to ask you how you rate the proportion of israel's response to the attacks from hamas.

guest: i'm not sure i feel qualified to answer that. we have really good people inside the state department and inside the u.s. government who have been in touch with our israeli allies and in touch with people on the ground in gaza and i think we need to do everything in our power to make sure the people in gaza who need assistance and human at terry in relief and medical attention get that attention and get that relief. i trust our government, i trust the israeli government and i trust the united states to do that and to make sure that people get what they need. i think -- i was just at a dinner the other night and we said a prayer for the palestinian people. it is heartbreaking to see what is happening, it is heartbreaking to hear about people who are being killed. these are real people with real lives, hopes and aspirations and dreams and they are suffering.

they are suffering in israel, they are suffering in the west bank, and gaza. we need to find a way to end that suffering and give people freedom, the ability to live the life they want to live, and i hope that the governments can get together and find a way to do that and quickly, because it is heartbreaking to turn on the news each day and see reports of more casualties and fatalities. it breaks my heart and it breaks the hearts of people around the world. host: let's hear from sheila in washington, d.c. on the democrat line. caller: good morning. i'm calling because i am devastated each time i turn on the news, to hear about all the deaths and we have to realize that these are people. if there is any kind of way that the united states can find a way

to have medical supplies, food, water, because people are people no matter who they are and it's a sad thing to have hamas using people as shields. i'm just hoping that something happens and that maybe israel and palestine can have separate countries in the future. we've been trying to do it for years. hopefully we can get something done. host: jason, what do you think this current situation means to the two state solution? guest: it's a great question. it is very hard to see a pathway to this two state solution with hamas as an active player. hamas's charter clearly states they don't recognize israel.

that they condone the killing of israelis, jews. it is difficult to make peace with an organization like that. it is important to note that there are many palestinians in the west bank and gaza who want peace and don't feel like hamas speaks for them. but they also suffer at the hands of hamas because there have been reports and people have seen this in the media, of hamas inflicting violence on palestinians who try to resist hamas rule. we need to find a way towards peace. i fully agree with the caller. these are all human beings with lives and hopes and dreams. we need to find a way to end the cycle of violence. we need to find a pathway towards peace. we need to work towards the solution that works for the people on the ground who need relief who, who need freedom and liberty and dignity and all the things they deserve. right now, it seems hard to see

that pathway with hamas in the way. that is part of why israel is trying to eradicate hamas. how successful that would be, i don't know. but i'm not convinced at the moment that hamas is actually interested in peace or would be a willing partner to a two state solution. host: we have a listener question on x, but i first want to read a tweet they are referencing that ss, from the river to the sea is an aspirational call r freedom, human rights and peacefu coexistence, n dth, destruction or hate. myork and advocacy has always centered in justice dignity -- centered in justice and dignity for all people, no matter faith or ethnicity. for the listener question, in

your sub stack peace, you said the slogan from the river to the sea is code for liquidating all jews from israel via displacement or slaughter. do you believe are presented of to leave doesn't know that -- do you believe are presented tlaib doesn't know that? guest: i'm not going to comment on what she does or doesn't believe. if she is on the record saying she stands for human rights and dignity for all people, i agree with that statement. people deserve that. that includes people in gaza and the west bank. it includes people in israel. there is a lot of debate about the various chants one here's at a rally and what they mean -- one hears at a rally and what they mean. certainly when hamas says certain things, it takes on a

very different meaning because we know that in the hamas charter, they have especially called for the annihilation of israel and the murder and death of the jews who live there. when they say that they want to take over from one point to another, that in the minds of israelis and minds of the jewars alarm bells because we know when they say it, that they are willing to achieve that objective through genocide, death and slaughter. this is why i think the path to peace, which is what we should all be striving for, right now, i don't see how hamas can play a role in that. they have especially stated -- they have explicitly stated that

they desire for israel to go away and for all israelis and jews who live there to be eradicated. that to me does not get us closer to peace. host: in washington, d.c. there was a big protest yesterday, and i saw many signs that said from the river to the sea, palestine shall be free. what was it like for you seeing that? guest: i didn't see anything yesterday. i was in the suburbs doing much needed shopping and medical appointments and things like that. i personally would love to see more rallies that have peace signs on them. i was thinking about this from another piece i might write. when i was growing up, talk of peace was in the air everywhere. people flashed peace signs and would say peace in the middle east and they were very active and vibrant on college campuses.

peace movements and studies. everything was about peace. recently it feels like everything has become about war and violence and eradication. there is a lot of harmful and hurtful rhetoric that has been circulating that either suggests these things or flat out just says these things. we have seen graffiti in the united states that says death to jews, death to israel. i would love to see more rallies for peace. i would love to see more peace signs across american cities that say we want peace, we want dignity and security and stability and freedom for all palestinians, for all israelis, for all people who wish to have it, we want it and we want our political leaders in israel and the united states and the united nations and the palestinian territories to be working towards that goal. i would join those rallies in a heartbeat with a big peace sign,

a big heart, and i wish we saw more of that. host: ken in connecticut on our republican line. caller: good morning. hello jason. i would like to say first of all that we support you in america 110%. you are god's children. we love you. students in america really need to learn history. they are out there protesting in the streets with signs saying free palestine. i guarantee you israel will definitely free palestine from hamas. once hamas is gone, palestinian people and israeli people hopefully, and i'm sure they will live in peace at first we have to eliminate all of these tyrants. all of these haters in our world. what is going on, it is good against evil. this is what people have to understand.

it is good against evil. you have two words. stay on the good side. the palestinian students, a lot of them probably have people, relatives in hamas and they are out there protesting in the streets without knowing really about history and about what those people want to do to innocent people and what they have done. this is going to end. this is the most terrible thing to happen, but sometimes terrible things bring good things and this is what's going to happen. israel will rise. host: with the caveat that you are american, did you want to respond to anything the caller has said? guest: yes. born in the united states, always a proud american. also jewish and we all have multiple identities, these different hats that we wear.

american jews are some of the most patriotic americans because in this country we've been able to find freedom and stability in large part and have been able to practice warship -- worship. it is why so many jews are proud to be americans. i will also say i don't think it does us any favors to demonize people in this conflict who disagree with us. i have some amazing friends, some of them the best friends i've had in my life who are palestinian americans. we see this conflict through different lenses but our friendship has remained and endured and i still count them as some of my closest supporters, even to this day, and i am some of their biggest supporters. even on the ground in israel, i was talking to a friend of mine in israel over email and he was telling me that his company that he runs in israel, he purposefully hires palestinianrk for him.

that is how he sees his contribution to peace, to bring people together across these barriers and borders. he's been active in peace movements in israel and the territories for the last 15 years. there are lots of people who want peace. there are a lot of good-faith actors on all sides of this conflict who want this to end. who are sick of this cycle of violence time and time again. i think that is what we need, we need all of those people of good mind and good conscious who believe in -- good conscience who believe in peace to come together and rally together and join hands, and i think that would be how we can take this awful series of events we have seen over the past four or five weeks and spin it into something positive for the world. host: another comment from x. i support ra in their defense. i'm tting tired of hearing and

seeing israel dropping a 2000 pump -- 2000 pound bomb to kill one hamas leader. this gets to that sense of portions we were discussing earlier. do you have a response to that? guest: i'm not in a position to comment on that one way or another. i am not israeli, i don't work for the government, i don't work for the defense forces. i have no insight into why they are doing what they are doing, what their strategy is, what their plan of attack is, who they are targeting. i am getting the news just like everyone else and trying to make sense of it. i pray for the people, i pray for their safety and i just hope that somehow or another, we can find a resolution. host: bill is in florida on our independent line. caller: good morning. my comment has nothing to do with mr. steinhauer's hope.

i certainly hope for peace. but i would make this comment. long before the holocaust, there were people in israel trying to secure a land. most of the world has been settled, unfortunately by violence in terms of how territories and countries are laid out. some geography but some violence. i think israel's claim would have been better if it actually had been taken by force. i think they made a mistake as to the 19 67 war to think they could give land for peace and what is going on now is terrible but i must say this. i think it helps people who

believe that they are going nowhere and that they are willing to fight as opposed to being disposed of. this is a big deal and people should support israel 100% in this. host: this is something you do get into a bit in your piece, the origins of israel. i wonder what you think of what the caller had to say and how the origins of israel as a nationstate might have factored into where we are today. guest: israel was established through the united nations. if you go to the united nations archives or look online, you can find the documents where this was all debated and resolved through the united nations. where the official resolution was passed recognizing the state of israel and of course the seeds had been planted decades before. the land that is now israel was

at one point part of the ottoman empire, that was taken over by the british after world war i. as part of the british mandate, there was a clause in stipulation that said this would become a home for the jewish people and in part it was because jews had been persecuted pretty much everywhere else they had been, so there was a need to find a homeland where jews could live and practice freely and there was this historical biblical connection with the land of israel and jerusalem being a holy city. that was, if you look at the history of the 1910s and 1930's and 1940's, you will find all of these debates back and forth, in the historical correct -- historical record about how this state should be created, what would happen to the arabs who live there, what would happen to the jews who lived there, making

sure the rights of everyone who lived there would be secured and upheld. there was fierce resistance obviously, from some parts of the arab world, the creation of the state of israel, and there continues to be fierce resistance. even after the united nations declaration and all the wars that have been fought since and of course there are some who still don't recognize that the british mandate was lawful and legal. people dispute that. certainly the history plays a huge role here. it also oftentimes gets distorted and manipulated and turned into propaganda and there are parts that are taken out and parts that are put in and especially on social media where you only get little bits flying by on your newsfeed. it can be hard to suss all of this out. there are thousands of books that have been written about this and thousands of articles.

if people are interested, i encourage them to dig into the literature and history, and you will see it is very messy and very complicated but it absolutely informs what we are seeing today. host: a couple more calls. but first i want to go to michael thorton on x referencing your sub sta piece. heays to the palestinians also have historical perspectives and trauma that affect how they view israel? guest: 100%. absolutely. viewers may be familiar with something called the -- the term refers to 1948, the war that was fought after israel's independence and the displacement of palestinians from their homes, which created a refugee crisis we are still dealing with 80 years later. absolutely, there is historical trauma for people in gaza and the west bank.

i have palestinian american friends who i talk to about this issue a lot and they have their own historical trauma just like we have our own historical trauma from the holocaust and all the other violence american jews and jews around the world have experienced. i encourage people to dig into that history and learn about it because it absolutely affects how some of these issues on the ground play out today. host: let's try to get a couple more calls in. anthony in new york, democrat line. caller: hello? host: make sure to turn down the volume on your tv. caller: ok. i would like to applaud our guest for taking time to explain what it would mean to have a cease-fire with hamas.

9/11, that is something -- they came through new york in airplanes and people didn't even have a chance. people need to learn their history before they talk about a cease-fire. when you cease-fire, you are smitty to terrorism and it needs to stop. -- you are submitting to terrorism and it needs to stop. thank you. host: with the understanding that hamas is not the group responsible for the 9/11 attacks, i wonder if you want to give any final thoughts on this idea of the response -- israel's response to all of this and the lasting impact on american jews? guest: from an american jewish perspective, the events of october 7 were horrifying but i would see equally horrifying has been some of what we have seen afterwards. it is a very scary time for jews not just in america but around

the world. we are seeing some very disturbing messages, very disturbing chants and slogans, attacks against jewish students on university campuses or on synagogues. vandalism that seems to applaud or celebrate the murder of jewish people. as unnerving as that is, i think it is even more unnerving for us to believe that maybe there are people out there in our own country who would welcome this, that would want to see this. that is a scary thought. we think about what we all have a responsibility to do moving forward. we all have a responsibility to speak out against hate. to speak out against the demonization of other people, even if those people disagree

with us sharply on contentious issues. i think we have an obligation to try and find common ground. we have an obligation to try and see the humanity and dignity in each person. i think we have a responsibility to collectively try to work towards a peaceful solution that will give people the right to live their lives, practice freely and live freely which is something that we all want and all aspire to. i think we need to do that in a way where we are not calling for violence against other people, and we are not condoning violence that has already taken place. i think we can do that. i think we have the language. i think we have the historical knowledge. i think we have the leadership. i think it is incumbent upon all of us to lock arms and support each other. to reject hate, reject violence,

and find a pathway towards peace and demand that our political leaders do the same. if anyone takes away any message from this conversation today, i hope that is the message they take. host: thank you, jason steinhauer.