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we are joined now by vivian salama, a national security order for the wall street journal. didion, welcome. guest: great to be with you. host: before we get to our topic which is the relief agency in gaza, i want to ask you about that deadly drone attack in jordan. the president has said he has decide how he is going to respond. what have you heard? guest: obviously when it comes to these intense military operations, he doesn't want to really reveal too much, but what we have learned from sources is that they are looking at some sort of multi-pronged approach where it would go over several days, sort of a tiered response to the attacks, perhaps an aerial strike of some kind. we know that the islamic resistance group which is sort of under the pro-iranian militia umbrella within iran, they are the ones that have claimed responsibility. so at least they know who they are going after to retaliate against.

but obviously the stakes are very high. the administration saying from the get-go thanks to the october 7 attacks that it did not want to draw iran into a war, nor does it want to be drawn into a war with iran or anyone else. but now there has been a direct hit on u.s. military personnel, which puts us in this dickman were he has to respond somehow but also doesn't want to do so in a way that could really just trigger a widespread war. host: turning now to the allegations against u.n. relief agency in gaza, first explain what that is. what it is and what its mission is. guest: it was created shortly after israel was established and began to operate in 1950. essentially its main mission has been to provide relief for palestinian refugees.

it was made a refue isis at the time and they were out there providing everythingro education to food to health care, and they are an entity of the united nations, so they have en operating now for well over 70 years. over that time there have been allegations and concerns of infiltration, that the party militant or extremist groups are trying to take advantage or manipulate access. however, bun has always pushed back on that and really defended its mission to help provide life-saving support, in some cases, and certainly lifesaving support in the last few months where you see the situation just absolutely catastrophic in gaza and the potential for famine now. we are entering a point of

famine, people are not receiving any basic health care, any food and basic needs, and so it is sort of that last hope for them which has been already financially compromised in recent years. the trump administration has withdrawn its u.s. support in 2018, and so they were already struggling before this crisis. but of course, just because of the enormous demand for humanitarian relief right now, they were struggling and saying they were going to need billions of dollars to be able to meet that need. so it's quite startling on friday when the head of the organization can out and admitted that they were investigating 12 staffers -- host: let's get into the specific allegations. guest: yeah. so on friday, they came out

early and said they were investigating 12 staffers who may have potential links to hamas and the group particularly that orchestrated and carried out the october 7 attacks. obviously very shocking, a shocking accusation and revelation that unra had to put out there. and it was apparently due to conversations that they had been having where they had shared some intelligence to reveal that they were concerned not just about these 12, but about hundreds that may have links either directly or indirectly through relatives or have crossed paths with people. remember, the gaza strip is not very big and its population even though it was in the millions, people are still very closely knit. the israeli government was saying that they found potentially hundreds of connections and unra said what

we see is 12 people who are of concern, their contracts were immediately released, and they said they were investigating. however, most of the major donor countries announced very quickly that they were going to withhold any additional aid until those investigations are complete, and they were really pressing on the united nations to do so. host: i'll just get that on the screenthe 10 countries that have temporarily at least suspended funding. they are the u.s., germany, britain, australia, italy, canada, finland, netherlands, austria and japan. they said that is being suspended pending that investigation that you were just talking about. you mentioned the 12 that were fired. apparently the dossier says six

actually participated -- this is the allegation -- participated in the october 7 attacks in israel, kidnapping and other things. what have you learned about that and have you seen that dossier? guest: i haven't seen the dossier yet but certainly it being investigated right now and unra said it is taking these accusations very seriously. of course, what they have said since friday is this has the potential to really take what is already a catastrophic situation and make it so much worse, penalizing the palestinian civilians because of the actions of a few. so they are taking it very seriously and they are looking into it. unra not really pushing back on any of this while they dig into this and by the way, the number of countries that have withheld age, you listed a few of them but there are many more than that. so unra really saying that what

was a dire situation now is just going to go beyond, so they are also trying to appeal to these countries to do more to help them. yesterday, a state department spokesman matthew miller came out to the podium and he would be downplayed the impact of the u.s. aid. he said that the vast majority of the pool of aid that the united states had to give to unra, their congressionally approved give, most of that has already been allocated. so he downplayed the impact. but right now, every single dollar helps and that is really what they have been out there saying since friday. they cannot afford to lose a single dollar at this stage because the need and the demand for humanitarian assistance, lifesaving humanitarian assistance is so dire. host: if you'd like to join our conversation, you can do so on our line by party.

democrat, (202) 748-8000. republican, (202) 748-8001. independent, (202) 748-8002. i want to play for you the spokesman for the secretary-general responding to allegations and then i will get your response. >> the secretary-general made it clear over the weekend the united nations taking swift action following the extremely serious allegations made against several staff members. the contracts of the staff members directly involved have been terminated as we told you on friday. investigation by the u.n. office of internal oversight services was immediately activated. the secretary-general has remained a very active on this issue throughout the weekend and this morning. a few moments ago, he met with m■the secretary-general to ensue that the investigation will be done swiftly and efficiently as possible.

any employee involved in acts of terror will be held accountable including criminal prosecution and as we said, the secretary is ready to cooperate with authorities to prosecute the individuals in line with the secretary's normal procedure for such cooperation. the secretary-general has also been engaged with leadership and donors to unra as well as regional leaders such as king of della -- king abdullah in the president regent of egypt will whom -- with whom you will speak later this afternoon. the secretary-general is personally horrified by the accusations against employees of unra but his message to donors, especially those who have suspended their contributions is to at least guarantee the continuity of unra's operations as we have tens of thousands of dedicated staff working throughout the region in dire need of the desperate population they serve must be met.

at this point, the outlook for unra in the millions of people it serves not only in gaza but also in east jerusalem, in the west bank, jordan, lebanon and syria is very bleak. host: vivian, he said that the secretary-general is personally horrified. as you said, it goes beyond the 12 individuals. it could be a lot of people within that organization that are at least sympathetic to hamas and to their tactics. how is the credibility of -- has the credibility of unra completely been shot at this point? you've got that issue and then on the other hand as we know, the humanitarian situation in gaza is dire. so what happens next? guest: will go now into the political rhetoric that we are hearing, the back and forth about whether the u.s. has done enough in what the united nations' role has and could be

in improving the situation somehow. unra has come under fire before, but the fact of the matter is a lot humanitarian organizations around the world would say that what we hear now, as much as it is shocking and very troubling, it should not overshadow the wonderful work that they have done to provide lifesaving assistance to millions of palestinian's throughout the decades. so this is something that they are having to grapple with right now. i've been speaking to people all weekend who say the last thing they needed right now, financially they were struggling already. they'd had bumps in the road with their reputation and now this. so obviously it is something that is going to really hurt their reputation moving forward but at the end of the day, i think you talk to u.s. officials who understand that the need for

humanitarian assistance is one that cannot be compromised in any circumstances under any conditions. for example, stopping them from working is just not even in the discussion right now because they know that right now, that is not an option. they really need to get that lifesaving humanitarian assistance to as many people as possible. so it is really not an easy situation, but nor is the response to the military crisis in gaza. the biden administration has really come under fire for its decision to temporarily withhold aid to unra, especially from progressives who say that he already hadn't done enough to help the people of gaza and as a result we've seen this soaring civilian death toll in the last few months. this has basically added fuel to that fire with calls for a

cease-fire getting louder and louder, and the condemnation against the biden administration for not doing enough especially among that group in his party also getting louder. host: let's talk to callers. doreen is first in virginia, hello. caller: hello, how are you doing? i wanted to speak with the senator earlier, but that's fine. he really bothered me. i have to recommend a couple of books because he said he liked good reads. also, i'd just like to say, all the people who died in palestine, they are surrounded by israeli tanks getting shot up. and also, before israel, to stop these genocidal actions, they

just had a conference with a celebrated -- they had actual cabinet members. also, what i really wanted to say is three black soldiers died in jordan. please do not take this as a time to be patriotic. why do we have to serve in the military if we've already a cen? think about that before you take this into black history month. host: let's go to lewis in new jersey, independent. caller: good morning, i have two questions. if those people were immediately fired, how come they weren't immediately arrested? second question, how come the press and especially c-span were like crickets about the american journalist that was arrested in ukraine for writing opposition -- i guess opposition stories

against zelenskyy? how come we didn't get that guy out of there? he was arrested. brutalized, murdered in a ukrainian prison. thank you. host: this ian, do you know any -- vivan, do you know anything about that in ukraine? guest: this is the first i'm hearing about that, i'll have to look into it. host: he also asked why weren't the members of unra arrested rather than just being fired? guest: i think there is still an investigation underway. they have terminated their contracts for the time being just two sort of prevent them from having access to any unra- related activities while they do the investigation. it is possible that that would be coming down the line. host: new berlin, wisconsin, republican. caller: good morning, a few quick questions. vivian, if you can give a quick

history of how and when unra started, did they begin specifically to help palestinian refugees or was it someone else? number two, have the arab countries, the surrounding arab countries which are very wealthy, have they given any reasons why they are not willing to step up right now and fill the gaps of u.s. funding while we pull back and try to assess where the members of this unra group or whatever? can we ask the arab countries to step up? in king abdullah of jordan have said -- has said jordan will not accept any arab refugees. what reason have the arab countries given for not wanting -- no one seems to want to help their fellow arabs by taking them into their countries, all while israel tries to get rid of

hamas. one last quick question, i believe that hamas has been running the school since 2005 or whatever and really indoctrinating people with hatred of israel. have they asked themselves, do we have any precedent with a battle like this going on and what did we do in the past? how do we try to get rid of a terrorist country without hurting civilians, and what input have they given as to what better way to do it? appreciate your comments. host: a lot of questions. guest: yes, more questions. i had talked a little bit about the history earlier but i'm happy to recap very quickly if you're just tuning in. 1950 is when unra started operating, it was created in 1949 just after the creation of the state of israel, and it was

to address the enormous refugee problem that had arisen as a result of the state of israel being created. they were created to address the problems of palestinian refugees in particular, and that has been their core mission under the u.n. now i'm going to forget all your questions. host: the arab countries, why haven't they stepped up? guest: they have. egypt has a refugee camp in gaza and has been providing aid. jordan has done air drops of food and other aid into gaza and the emirates have taken some action. so they have been doing things their own way, in addition to financial funding and things like that. they might not necessarily be putting more money in, for example, but they do have their own activities.

the egyptian red cross is very active, and the egyptian government has also been trying to get aid across the border since they share a border with gaza. host: and what about refugees in their countries? guest: this is an ongoing debate, frankly, and it is a complicated one. i could talk to you about it for the entire show. in particular, egypt has been pushed, and there's a number of israeli lawmakers who have been saying egypt should take the people of gaza, the civilians and shelter them at least through the duration of the war, some of the more right wing's saying take them for good which has been frowned upon even by the united states. the problem with that is that egypt has had, over recent decades, a history with extremism. the egyptians have groups like hamas and the muslim

brotherhood, for starters. secondly, they have seen that a lot of times when that happens, when refugees go temporarily to egypt, it ends up being a one-way ticket either because their homes are destroyed or they are unable to get back and egypt feels like it is too much of a burden, is home to an enormous number of refugees. remember, there is war to its east and gaza, to the west in sudan and in libya. they are really burdened and doing what they can, all of the u.s. would like to see them do more. same for jordan. the majority of jordan's population has the west bank on its border. it has over the decades become home to millions and millions of palestinians. the queen of jordan is

palestinian. so that is just to offer a little context. and then finally, you mentioned the schools, and i'm glad you raised that. hamas was controlling the government in gaza. we say that they run the health ministry and they run the schools. you have to understand, and please take my word for it because i'm a reporter who has worked in gaza, the vast majority of people that i have spoken to, and i know a lot of americans question this, but believe me, the vast majority that i've spoken to in gaza belief they would have been better off without hamas. they were not supportive of hamas, that they had no alternative. when we say indoctrinating young people to hate israel, it wasn't that they were hammering them to hate israel. remember, gaza had gone through extreme periods of occupation

and blockades. so the conditions were making it so that the palestinian people were resenting israel for those conditions, but for many, they just wanted to live. i'm not saying that people didn't hate israel, but what i'm saying is many of them also hate hamas, so it is just important to remember that in that context. host: i know that your time is running out with us and i know you've got a lot going on, but can you stick around a little bit longer with us to take some more calls? guest: only for you. host: pamela, miami, florida, independent. caller: thank you for had me on. she is very biased and she is completely wrong about unra. unra is a corrupt enterprise, about a $10 billion enterprise

with a huge amount of u.s. funding. it has about 13,000 employees. just a little background and history, there were equal number of jewish refugees from the war of independence, about 700,000 during the 1948 to 1950 conflict in all of them were absorbed by israel. unra has acted to actually prolong the conflict over 75 years. today, only about 35 direct descendants are alive. and by the way, other arab countries don't even allow citizenship to palestinians except for jordan. guest: that is incorrect. the united arab emirates, qatar and a couple of others also great citizenship. a lot of developed countries do.

caller: over 75 years i'm sure they have. in any case, i think unra is a totally corrupt organization and they played a deadly roll on october 7 and i think she is being very kind to them and covering up for them. the government should do their homework and admit the indoctrination and all the other crimes unra has been responsible for. it's also incredibly corrupt, as most organizations are. certainly they do a lot of good things, they do provide humanitarian aid, but you've got to wonder why after 75 years do we still have a huge so-called refugee problem? it's not necessarily due to israel. host: so pamela mentioned funding. i'm going to have you respond to that. i will put on the screen the funding for unra for 2022. total funding, $1.17 billion and

then the top funders are on your screen with the united states being at the top at $344 million followed by germany. guest: so i have seen accusations like the ones that you posed regarding wanting to prolong the refugee crisis. i assure you that there have been many other factors prolonging the refugee crisis for palestinians, and to my knowledge, based on my reporting and having lived in israel and worked in the west ink in gaza, -- west bank and gaza i have seen firsthand in some cases the demolition of homes, the expansion of settler communities in the west bank u.s. right now is very concerned about. you have multiple wars, which have destroyed homes and created

an enormous refugee crisis. also keep in mind that the borders of israel were moving over the decades because of a series of wars with the neighboring arab countries before egypt and jordan made peace with israel. so there were a number of actor that fueled the refugee crisis for the palestinians. so as far these accusations go that unra sought to prolong the refugee crisis, i see no evidence of that, although i have seen people putting those accusations out there on twitter and other social media. host: one more call. winston, columbus ohio, democrat, good morning. caller: thanks for letting me on and i appreciate vivian for sticking around. i did have a question because it seems like this whole conversation has gone on and not mentioned the fact that israel has been found to be potentially

doing a genocide by the international court of justice. this was like the furthest decision that they could make toward saying that israel is committing a genocide right now, and so the assistance of weapons , the united states government, the biden administration is potentially assisting in genocide, the cutting off of unra funding which is largely responsible for helping people get food in the area that is deemed as descending into a famine condition, cutting off aid to the organization that is feeding them, that is assisting in the famine, assisting in the potential genocide. i do wonder, can you speak a little bit or at all to the international court of justice, the fact that israel is one of under a dozen countries that have ever been held to be

potentially committing genocide, because it doesn't make any sense how 12 people are alleged to do something so a whole organization gets defunded. when the international court of justice looks at the evidence and sees that the israeli prime minister and other people in his cabinet are making genocidal claims, 30,000 civilians killed, all of gaza razed to the ground -- host: let's go ahead and get a response. guest: so just to correct you, winston, the icj actually did not find that there was enough evidence to say that israel had the aunt to commit genocide. the israelis -- the intent to commit genocide. the israelis were very pleased with that outcome. it did however say that the israelis need to do more to take action immediately to prevent additional civilian lives lost,

and they were very concerned about that, but they did not go as far as defined genocide because you mentioned intent, that is something that they felt was not something that they had established with the evidence available. that being said, you are right to question, and the u.s. military aid, israel has been one of the largest if not the largest recipients of u.s. military aid for several decades now. there has been a growing group of lawmakers, mainly democrats in both the senate and the house led very much by bernie sanders calling for a review and more scrutiny of the u.s. aid to israel over concerns that u.s. military aid, u.s. weapons were being used in its war where we

see this enormous civilian death toll. for the most pt so far that has been rejected by the administration and by most lawmakers on the hill. we believe that the u.s. needs to continue to support israel because it is its biggest and most important ally in the region, in the middle east, but also they see it as benefiting u.s. national security. so that really has not gained a lot of traction beyond that group of lawmakers who are largely progressive. that being said, the biden administration is obviously growing very frustrated. sources that i've talked to understand that they have this enormous leverage over israel ■and could potentially pull the plug if they were to reach a point where they say enough is

enough, too many people have died. they are not there as far as anyone i've talked to saying that that it's just not going to happen. it is certainly a conversation had behind the scenes in every court or of government here in washington. it is something that a lot of people are very concerned about and is definitely a lingering question. but for now, it remains only a question and i don't see it translating into action. host: vivian salama, national security reporter for the wall street journal. street journal. c-span washington journal. coming up, christy houlahan, an air force veteran and member of

the intelligence committee stus the drone attack on u.s. forces in jordan, immigration and border security and immigration to ukraine and israel. and then an expert talks about recent polling showing more than a quarter of adults in the united states are religiously unaffiliated. c-span's "washington journal" join in live thursday morning on c-span, c-span now, our free mobile app or online at c-span.org. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. funded by these television companies and more, including mediacom. >> we believe whether you live here or right here, or way out in the middle of anywhere, you should have access to fast, reliable internet. that's why we're leading the way and taking to you 10-g.