coming up on c-span's washington journal your calls and comments live author sam quinone talks about the opiate crisis in the u.s. and tim franklin from medill local news initiative at northwestern university about the decline of local news. the washington journal is next. host: good morning it is friday, february 2. the house passed a 78 million

dollar tax bill and because tax season has started do you think the american tax system is fair? do you think you are paying the right amount and how would you rate the value you get for those taxes? we will have the fun lines by income (202) 748-8000 between 35,000-75,000 (202) 748-8001 over 75,000 (202) 748-8002. you can text us at (202) 748-8003 or find us on facebook at facebook.com/cspan and x at cspanwj. we will start with an a people that asked about the

fairness of taxes and here are the results. here is the question about how fair or unfair each of the following taxes are and these are broken up by different types of taxes starting with the federal social security tax. the green is very or somewhat fair in the blue is unfair and overall 46-51 on the social security tax. when it shows by party republicans find taxes unfair the democrats and here is the state sales tax, state income tax and local property tax. at federal income tax 39 consider it fair, 60 unfair.

a couple of more results how most do not understand how taxes are calculated in the question is do you consider the amount you pay too high, too low or just right? you will see the blue is too much or too high. the local federal income tax and local sales tax. we want to find out what you think about that but here's a look at the chairman of the house ways and means committee. he talked on wednesday about the provisions of the bill for businesses and low income families. [video clip] >> legislation locked in progrowth tax policies by ensuring three key provisions from president trump's tax

reform that created jobs, raised workers wages and spurred economic growth at home. this has interested duct ability and a hundred percent expensing these will help american businesses grow, create jobs and sharpen their advantage against china this will create 70 billion in new rmd investment increase small business investment by 400 billion and generate 58 billion in take-home pay for american workers. american small businesses are being pummeled by high prices and interest rates. this raises the expense cap for small businesses beyond the limit set in the 2017 tax reform

and cuts paper work by updating the irs form last changed when eisenhower was president not only are we helping businesses at home but this relief package also ensures we are standing with our key economic partners by ending double taxation operating in multiple countries. the child tax provisions establishes the 2017 tax reform that maintains work requirements and remove the penalty for families with multiple children it is pro-worker and profamily. host: that was on the house floor on wednesday about the tax bill that just passed the house

and we are asking you this morning if you think the tax system is fair and the numbers are on your screen divided by income. this is by cbs news.com, who pays the most taxes? experts explain and it says tax day arrives on april 18 with the expected to file returns one group will pay the bulk of the nations individual income taxes it's designed to be progressive indicating higher income americans play a higher rate. because of the system of tax benefits and transfers such as

taxpayer-funded programs the lowest earning americans receive more from the government than they pay an income taxes. even so the tax system has grown less progressive with tax legislation in 2017 enacting tax cuts for the rich 81 percent between 1944-1981 compared to 37% for today. let's go to matthew and choi, illinois. under 30,000. what do you think of the tax system? caller: for the most part is pretty fair. i do believe restructuring could be done but overall, it is

pretty fair. the top earners do have a higher part of the distribution so i think it's pretty good. host: are you working? caller: i am not working i am looking for work. host: are you filing taxes this year? caller: yes. host: let's go to ralph in new york. caller: i am a uaw worker from upstate new york. the tax system is fair because it has one basic maxim it goes by a person's ability to pay. although the brackets are too wide. you go from 12% up to 22%.

there should be a few brackets in between 12 and 22. more brackets for the wealthy. are you still there? when you talk about the child tax credit, it is not fair. the tax cut favored upper incomes if you file head of household they are filing jointly but up to 400,000 you are eligible for the tax credit but lower income still get the full child tax credit because they have no tax liability. one last thing when you do talk about national debt and the tax system mention the tax gap in this country. host: he was talking about the

is axios the 20 for changes can lower taxes. there is a chart with marginal tax brackets for the 2024 tax year and youee the rates on the side for individuals and these are for married couples filing jointly in the lowest one is a 10% in the highest is 37% and that is if you're an individual with 600,000 or more. or married with a 731,000. from kansas city, missouri. caller: i will mr. colin, i think the taxes are fair. i wish everybody paid their fair

share and i think the inflation reduction act when they hired 87,000 new people, i think they are doing a good job and mr. smith to you had on earlier, -- who you had on earlier. they said they would go after working families. that is baloney. 52,000 of those agents are replacing retiring agents and mid-january the irs came out with the press release already collecting on people earning one million or more a year and owing 260,000 in taxes.

that doesn't include the businesses they have found. if they would collect tax cheaters and there are more in a calm. that's all i have to say. host: let's take a look on the house floor, there were republicans who spoke out against the legislation including chip roy. [video clip] >> arise in opposition to this legislation and i do so reluctantly because i know the significant amount of work on both sides of the aisle to reach an agreement with my friends on ways and means important legislation critical for job growth in the welfare of our country. the numerous businesses that

understand the importance of the expensing provisions, interest provisions, research and development. but unfortunately as happens in this town, this legislation comes with provisions that the people i represent are tired of and is provisions that would expand the welfare state as the wall street journal editorialized by expanding the child tax credit which will continue to fund people through refundable credits which we find to be and we think undermine the incentive to work and produce value that is critically important for economic growth. importantly that provision is also available to children who are in this country illegally. we think that's a problem is not

just allowing citizenship to anchor babies they will say that was a product of the 2017 bill passed by republicans to which i say so what? it is still wrong and still bad policy and we should not do it and we should not be perpetuating it now. host: we have social media post matthew from x, i'm a long-time tax preparer in the systems favorable to the wealthy, not even close. not to mention taxing social security on facebook, it is not fair the mdle class pay more proportionate to their income.

don also says i would like t see a flat tax everyone paying the same percentage no one ould be paying the majority of their income to the government. you work for you and your family not the government. is calling us from wilmington north carolina. caller: thank you for taking my call. as long as rich people are writing the tax law it will never be fair because they write the tax law for them. we can tax billionaires up to 99% and they will still have a billion dollars i don't understand why poor people save the tax code is fair. donald trump prove that when he was arguing against hillary

clinton and said i know the tax law is crooked because i use it. rich people don't pay taxes and they hire accountants to make sure they don't pay taxes. they have the deductions and the poor people are paying taxes they are using cars and going to work in building the roads and the poor people pay all kinds of different taxes besides income taxes. host: you are under 30,000, are you paying income taxes or do you pay sales taxes, fuel taxes? caller: i have a regular w-2 job and my taxes come out of every

paycheck. and that they did the year i'm able to get some of those things back but you know under 30,000. it's impossible. i live at two roomates. -- i live with two roommates. host: let's go to lee. caller: chip roy was talking about illegals being born here in taxes. i know for a fact. i have a cousin who is married to any legal and she is an american citizen and she gets no

taxes back from their paycheck because she is married to any legal and she can never apply for social security. she doesn't even get money back at the end of the year because she is married to him. a lot of the things that these republicans are saying is just a bunch of lies. host: let's take a look at by question about undocumented immigrants and federal taxes from the bipartisan policy center. as tax day approaches it is worth exploring a pressing question, do undocumented workers pay taxes? yes, they find ways to pay federal income and payroll taxes even if they don't have a social

security number and even if their income was from working illegally. there are many undocumented workers paid under the table but many pay in the hope that it will help them become citizens. various attempts at comprehensive reform have included provisions like moral character and paying back taxes for legalization. paying taxes is shown as good faith. ed isn't dan barry, connecticut. caller: i think the 80, 90 million the don't pay taxes should be added back to the tax rolls and both parties do it

because they have a large block of people who don't care about programs like the $1 trillion , they don't care about it and they don't hold government accountable the only way to balance the federal budget as of everyone pays income taxes and if they want to increase the budget everyone has to pay increase taxes otherwise the congress can slice and dice the population and a great block in the middle who simply don't care. you will have white elephant projects and if they were paying taxes they would care and demand future products that deliver a benefit and aren't just spending on port. -- pork. host: how do you feel about the

taxes you are paying? caller: it's fine. we don't pay income taxes either but what is most important is everybody has to take a look at the projects in the federal government budget is and decide if it is worth it. if they aren't paying taxes and they don't care what happens each one is able to slice and dice whichever program they want to satisfy their own interest group without opposition from the greater mass of people. host: let's take a look at the house ways and means ranking member richard neal on legislation. [video clip] >> this is sensible policy. there is no denying the fact

that 16 million children will benefit immediately from the expansion of the child tax credit. this is not welfare addressing childhood poverty should be a priority for us, low incoming housing credits are good policy. i can't believe we would stand here tonight and here that addressing childhood poverty is welfare. the number of children who live outside of the mainstream because of concerns they did not create. this is a bipartisan part of legislation, not perfection but it is a decent tax package to go forward. host: that was congressman neal on the floor on wednesday and we are taking your questions, do you think the u.s. tax system is fair?

bill is calling from florida, under 30,000. caller: i think the tax system is very unfair. they call middle income 70,000, i don't know too many people who know that. i took a cruise to the bahamas and the folks had american flags and the number one building is banks. all these rich people put their money in the bahamas so they don't pay taxes on it. we have to stop this corruption. all the rich people hide their money and we have to make them pay. host: how are you feeling about what you pay? caller: i'm not paying now i'm on social security, i'm retired. host: do you feel the very highest incomes, at what point

should they start paying higher? caller: a hundred thousand, hundred 50,000. it's not paying more money it's about hiding money. i went out to all of those islands and there were ships american flags and i know some of the people there and the number one building was banks because people are hiding their money so they don't have to pay taxes. all of the corporation should be paying more taxes. host: a previous caller talked about irs enforcement and they would be able to find people that are trying to avoid taxes. what do you think of that? caller: if it is done properly, yes. we need more people to find out what is going on the same thing with cps.

they can even find the kids in the system half the time. i think it's a good idea to try to enforce some of those. everyone should pay their fair share in people under 30 k should not pay anything. over 75,000, a hundred and 50,000, you should be paying a third in taxes and that will give you plenty of money to live on. host: tim and keller, texas over 75,000. caller: i think the tax system is extremely unfair to the poor. anyone under 75,000 should be paying zero taxes a family of four with a hundred 75,000 or less zero taxes.

you mentioned the marginal rates in the 50's was around 94%. that 37% for the rich is way too low. that has to be cranked up. no more offshore hiding and i agree with the enforcement of the irs. we need to go after rich tax cheats. host: what are your thoughts on local taxes in state taxes? caller: i'm talking about federal taxes. host: what you think of the other? caller: texas is an extremely expensive state to live in and we are making money renting. it's based on 3% of your house

value it's extremely expensive to retire in texas. some people are up to 6000 and homeowners protection and i paid 1300 a month to pay for insurance and taxes and that's owning your house. we bought a house out-of-state and will retire out-of-state. host: do you think it is fair to tax people on their possession? caller: that varies by state schools need to be funded. how else will you fund schools? those mainly go to school budgets and we need to fund schools. host: bus stock to art in

michigan. caller: good morning. host: let's talk to art in michigan. caller: i think our tax system is unfair. when we talk about fairness we need to ask, compared to what? my spouse worked in canada for 15 years and they pay higher taxes than we do but their services are much greater my spouse got sick and had to go into the hospital and she was there for six weeks and the only costs we had was $4.18. she came back to the u.s. and she was here for three weeks and it was over $40,000.

i think we need to appreciate the value we are getting for our taxes and making sure the system is more fair. host: i wanted to show you something from yesterday on a different subject this isaustint conference is his hospitalization and apologize for that miscommunication around his cancer diagnosis. [video clip] >> i am still recovering, i still have leg pain and i deeply grateful to my doctors and the nursing staff at walter reed and i very much appreciate the well wishes. i want to be crystal clear, we did not handle this right, i did not handle this right.

i should've told the president about my cancer diagnosis and i should have told my team and the american public and i take full responsibility. i apologize to my the american people. there were no gaps and authorities and risk to the department command-and-control ira the deputy secretary was in full charge and we put in place new procedures to make sure any lapses in notification do not happen. in the future if the deputy secretary need to assume action of my office the white house will be notified. the reason for the assumption of duties will be included in writing. i want you all to know why this

happened. i was being treated for prostate cancer and the new shook me and i know it shake so many others in the black community. it was a gut punch and frankly, my first instinct was to keep it private. i am a pretty guy and i never liked burdening others with my problems. it is not my way. but i have learned from this experience that taking this job means losing privacy most of us expect. the american public needs to know if our leaders are facing health challenges that could affect their■p duties so the wir circle should've been notified, especially the president. host: back to our question for the next half hour we are asking if you think the tax system is

fair and joe is in michigan. caller: good morning mimi. a couple of people have made some statements that are totally untrue. illegal immigrants or any of the people that come over when they come to get a job they fill out a w nine which states how many dependents they have. i used to farm and i had 212 employees and many of them were hispanic. when they fill that form out they put down they have 13 children even if they are 22 years old ended employer cannot question that information or you will get in trouble so they

don't get any tax withheld out of their paycheck and they keep all the money and they don't file an income tax return. number two, anybody who gets a job where they have to fill in i-9, you have to be an american citizen and you have to show them that the employer and if you don't produce those documents he cannot hire you. if he hires you without that proof of documentation it is subject to a fine. did you prove to c-span you were an american citizen or a legal

alien when you got your job? you need to check that out people think it's only people with brown skin there prove they belong there. they need to make more things deductible to common people. they need to let the guy make 50,000 deduct tuition for parochial school, medical costs. host:w[ do you think we are beig taxed too much, there are not enough deductions? caller: the necessities of life should be tax-deductible. that would allow working people to bring more money home and they could climb the social

economic ladder. host: let's take to mark in nyack, new york over 75,000. caller: i'm including my wife's income because i am retired. social security is taxed. you can thank ronald reagan for that and you can thank ronald reagan for raising taxes on working people and lowering the taxes on billionaires and this is continued for the last 40 years. like the gentleman said before in the 50's billionaires were taxed over 90% and the reason why is because president eisenhower said they will find ways to hide their income and only pay half of that so now

that it is 37% they pay less than anything else. i have investment and spend less than 15%, our tax system is incredibly unfair. is all about -- it is all about the rich gaining. host: taking a look at this from investor pdf five groups exempt from taxes. u.s. citizens who work abroad may not have to pay taxes if they meet specific criteria. religious organizations are exempt from paying taxes. low-income taxpayers may be exempt and a substantial medical bill on schedule a as a unreimbursed medical bill can reduce taxable income.

that is on investopedia. eric, you are next. caller: i agree that the tax system is unfair and the reason it is unfair, they underfunded and the undermanned that which is good for the rich. republicans whenever they talk about the rich paying their fair share they say yan want and it wouldn't do anything to america's debt but when they talk about cutting the debt they go straight to the poor people. people who barely have an income and what they should be paying. it's amazing they are cutting

off their nose to spite their face. they used to talk about right to work states and we don't hear the anything about that anymore and the reason is a few of those dummies realized that was ridiculous and all of those states were making lower wages and getting played by republicans but you don't hear about that. taxes are dead wrong and i think everyone except for the portion have more skin in the game. host: let's hear from one of those wealthy people jamie dimon and he advocated for the wealthy to pay more in taxes. [video clip] >> if you're making 14,000 year and give us $6,000 check at the

end of the year. i would make a negative income tax if you could put another 60 billion that goes into the household gets used for kids, food education. the data they have better health outcomes. if you didn't finish high school but you worked hard you could earn a living wage and that is not true in today's world. with all of the polarization today the lower income folks have more crime, less good schools this is a no-brainer to lift up society and i would pay for it by taxing the wealthy little more.

there are so many tax breaks that should not be there. i am a new yorker and all my friends hate me because i think should to talk more. host: that was jamie dimon and they were talking about state and local taxes. caller: good morning how are you doing today? host: i'm doing ok. caller: this whole thing about taxes, florida doesn't have any. we don't pay on her taxes like other states do, like hawaii or west virginia.

they can wipe all of that out it doesn't matter. that allows her legislators can basically jump in there and do whatever they want to do with our money and we have no say as to what is spent and how it is spent. yet all of these crazy people that are legislators. they have crazy ideas and none of them happen. host: do you think florida should pay state taxes so you have more say? caller: the thing is, if we had a say in what the taxes were,

yes. the bottom line is, all of our tax millionaires and i am talking about the representatives. they do their own thing and they boast about what they're doing. i don't think any of the states should be paying taxes. any of the residents in any of the state should be paying taxes. i think it should be voted on. host: lynn in virginia. caller: yes, good morning.

i do not think the tax system is fair in the united states and i think every person forgets that when they get paid, they are working for the government and their family. it is not only federal taxes it is state and local taxes. host: you are in the over 75,000, who do you think it is unfair for? caller: i don't think it's fair for the rich. i don't think is fair for the middle class. i don't think it's fair for all three listed. host: do you think they are paying too much or too little? caller: too much, that is what i think. host: when you talk about the incomes to the states for

services that they need to provide, where should that money come from? caller: i do think taxpayers. however, we are so far past what they need to spend. every single government agency is given a certain budget and if they don't spend that budget and they don't need to spend that budget they will go ahead and spend it because then they will get less the following year. there is so much waste, fraud and abuse. the government can't say they accurately take what they need to get the projects done that they do. as we would not have the issues we currently have, the taxpayers. all the way down to the

localities we do. host: alex in greenville, north carolina. hi alex. caller: hey, how is it going? sorry about that. just very quickly, i am a single lady, i work hard with two jobs. i do well, i did all the things your mama told you to do. i went to college and worked myself through school. this system is patently unfair to people like myself who are single. everybody wants to make as much money as they can but when i go to do my taxes, i am keeping my fingers crossed.

i owed last year for the first time ever and i don't claim myself. they are taking out extra and so i am hopeful that when i paid this time for last year it will of been impactful because the real issue i have is i was doing a quick research tesla paid no federal taxes and then they will say, we didn't really make any money in the united states, but you are using our roadways, our infrastructure and the people who by his cars they drive these cars on the roadways and it takes federal dollars to maintain roadways. i am not opposed to paying my

fair share. i want to pay my fair share. what i am saying it is of se tht corporations just don't pay. you have donald trump paying for tax breaks for the very rich and corporations. how is it fair to people like me , everybody's situation is different if you have four kids and you have no help and live in new york. people need to wake up. host: at that same event sponsored by the bipartisan policy center, paul ryan was there any talks about what he

saw as the benefits of the 2017 tax cuts and job acts. [video clip] >> from worldwide system to a tory or -- territorial system we brought our tax system in competition with the rest of the world. i think there are some things that could be better at like 40 expensing. i won't get into all of that this is not. >> please don't. >> when kevin and i wrote the bill we made permanent for what needed to be made permanent and temporary because he only had so much physical space to write this, the provisions we thought would be,- easier under any political landscape to extend.

my guess is you will have a compromise and it will look like the fiscal cliff when obama was president. and the question is, what can you do here? the cbo is telling us that the growth rate for the u.s. economy, the next 30 years is going to be one point 3%. that is half of what we grew in the last 30 years. it's looking at the world in front of us in the tax budget we have on display and we are going to half the growth rate, a stagnant society and the reason they cite that as labor. fewer people working. there are democrat -- demographics. this is the best thing you can get in the labor force.

host: let's go next to austin, texas, carolina good morning. caller: i live in austin, texas. my mom lives in washington dc where i am from and my husband and i work and we have three kids one at home and the other are growing up. i have a mother that i take care of and i pay her care covers -- givers. i am exposed to three different tax regimes. i think the tax system is extremely unfair to wage earners

in the under 75,000 area. host: why is that? do you think they pay too much? caller: helping them with state, local and social security taxes and caregivers. in my job i am a financial planner and advisor with people who are in at risk communities. people struggling to make ends meet. i fear about everyone's financial future in texas. i'm commenting on real estate taxes. in texas we doubt pay state taxes we have high taxes, once

you get over 65 you get a homestead. the thing is that is unconscionable that we have lower taxes for the wealthy. i can remember an era that they won't be but abated to make money anymore. host: we got this from r i washington. ndc w pay federal income tax but have no member in congress. additionally, the ultra-wealthy don't paid nearly enough. pete in west palm beach,

florida. caller: i am 93 years old and i was born in the depression years. 90% of the money the rich had and he had to raise taxes to 90% because they're the only months you had the money. until reagan got in we were doing the right thing. then reagan came in with this trickle-down economy and he decided that the rich could get tax breaks and help the poor. that was the beginning of the end for poor people. we are heading for disaster we will grab this country and we won't be able to pay the money we owe unless we start taxing the wealthy, that make nearly a million a year and pay no taxes.

sooner or later we have to get back to the system where it is fair i made 40,000 last year on my income through finances and i didn't have to pay tax on it. but millionaires pay no taxes on it. something is wrong with the tax system and we are going to bankrupt this country with this trickle-down economy. the rich have to start paying more and leave the poor alone. you have to have more income not just cut spending. i hope this country straightens out because i don't have to worry, i'm 93. have a happy new year. host: grand rapids michigan, edward, good morning. caller: this question is being

approached in an inappropriate manner. we really have to look on what our government is spending on before talking about taxation. there is unbelievable cost to the running of our government and creates a situation where people want more and more of our money. taxation should not be the issue it is how it is spent, he was doing the spending and why it is being spent? the wealthy do pay a lot of , the top 1% pay the majority of the taxes in this country and if you want to look at the tax proposition not only look pay a portion of their income but what it is being paid for. there are a lot of hidden taxes that we pay that nobody really looks at.

the gentleman talked about taking a cruise on social security. good for him■e, that's terrific. people pay taxes and they had jobs. rather than just try to do class warfare was take a look at what is happening in your state and local government just see if the money you are contributing to make this country great is being spent wisely, efficiently and in the appropriate manner. host: let's take a look at what richard said in las vegas. the tax systeore ir than callers are describing. high come bracket should not have to ridulous percent of tir income i think 45% should be the top. high level bracket should pay 35% in fall without deds.

when it comes to low income groups i think there taxes should be superlow but not zero. everyone should feel invested in our system. eddie in massachusetts, what do you think? caller: hi this is eddie. the deficit spending is the problem. in ireland they have sales tax and in england, there is a tax of 20%. what they could do is increase social security, it stops a hundred $60,000. there should be no limits to it. they have stock options, they could make $20 million in stock

options. which is not taxed until they sell them. i suggest we have a carbon tax and we could support our solar industry. host: paul in north carolina. caller: of course taxes are unfair. what i wanted to mention is that i am retired so i paid into social security which they call an entitlement, which it does not. every year i file my income taxes and i have a refund until my social security and and i think that is unfair to tax social security. i wanted to mention that for people who are getting their social security. just know what is going to be taxed. host: thanks to everyone who

called in and we will have more time and open forum. after the break we turn our attention to the fentanyl with sam quinone who talks about his book. and later, a conversation on the decline and local news and its impact on local economies. that is with tim franklin director of medill local news initiative. >> nonfiction book lovers, c-span has a number of podcasts for you. listen to best-selling authors and influential interviewers on the afterwards podcast, and on "q&a", here wide-ranging conversations. there are weekly hour-long conversations that regularly

teachers fascinating authors of nonfiction books on a variety of topics. the podcast takes you behind-the-scenes of the nonfiction publishing industry with industry updates and bestseller lists. find our podcasts by downloading the free c-span now app, or wherever you get your podcasts, and on our website, c-span.org/podcasts. >> american history tv, saturdays on c-span2, exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 7:00 p.m. eastern, we continue with free to choose, coproduced by milton friedman and his wife rose friedman. this episode titled from "cradle-to-grave" look set government welfare. at 8:00 p.m. eastern on lectures of history, the second part of a lecture by professor michael

ross on the 1925 monkey trial on teaching evolution and the cultural significance in 1920's america. at 9:30 p.m. on the presidency, first ladies and civil rights. we look at the complicated history of american first ladies and race relations, from slaveowner martha washington to michelle obama, the first african-american to hold the position, hosted by the white house historical association. at 10:30 eastern p.m., look at a 1988 speech by then vice president george h w bush in south carolina, followed by 2020 democratic presidential candidate joe biden's victory speech after the south carolina primary. exploring the american story, watch american history tv saturdays on c-span2, and find thfull schedule on your program guide or watch online at c-span.org/history anytime. ♪ >> a healthy democracy does not

just look like this, it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly involved, a republic thrives. get informed straight from the sources on c-span, unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capitol to wherever you are because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back to "washington journal." we are joined by sam quinones, the author of "the least of us: true tales of america and hope in the time of fentanyl and meth ." welcome. guest: thank you. host: i want to put something on the screen talking about the scale of this fentanyl problem. the sources from npr, but it says over 112 thousand american

lives have been claimed from 2022, 2023, according to the cdc, a 37% increase compared with a 12 month period ending in may 2020. the vast majority who died were adults, but drug overdoses are unprecedented numbers, rising from 31 and july 2019 to 18 in may 2021. what is going on? what is causing the rise? guest: i would say the supply that has inundated the country, most of it from mexico. and fentanyl is a legal drug used effectively in surgery. i have had it in surgery myself, but when it is in the hands of the trafficking world and mexico, who was able to get

quantities of ingredients to make fentanyl, you have a combustible combination, and what has happened is over the last several years, the traffickers and mexico have been able to make it in staggering quantities. so much that fentanyl is now nationwide. it used to be illicitly in 2013- 20 14, mostly congregating in the states where the opioid epidemic began, ohio, west virginia. since then, it has really just pretty much gone all over the country. it is the deadliest drug we have ever seen on our streets. host: fentanyl is synthetic. guest: a synthetic drug made only with chemicals. host: in a lab. you don't need to grow it, and that makes it cheaper. guest: that next it cheaper, easier to make, and easier to smuggle because it is a highly potent, so a smaller amount will

make you staggering profits. that is one of several reasons -- these are among several reasons why traffickers have figured out that this is a bonanza drug. a lottery type winnings from this drug. so people are finding that traffickers and dealers across the country have been putting it into other drugs. cocaine is the main one. methamphetamine. host: why is it being next with other chemicals? guest: again, it is all about supply. there is so much of it coming in from mexico that it gets mixed in where people on the street have figured out, if you mix it into other drugs, it will boost the potency. thus, it is important to understand, you don't kill the customer first, they will develop a tolerance have become an addict, and then will be a

daily, aggressive customer, whereas, maybe a person using cocaine may use once or twice a week or month, but now they become daily users, so it is also -- as much as it does kill people, it is also a customer expansion tool on the part of local dealers. this is something that dealers all across the country have figured out. a good number of them are also selling fentanyl to maintain their fentanyl habit. it is part of the whole drug world. you sell to make the money that -- make the drugs that you do not want to spend your own money on. it is kind of an ecosystem of vendors all across the country, but fentanyl has now competed with karen. if you are addicted to fentanyl, there is no chance that heroin

will be taking care of withdrawal symptoms. host: so as far as addiction goes, fentanyl is easier to get addicted to than other illicit drugs and harder to get off of. guest: well, because the supply is so vast and relentless, it takes people's tolerances of very high. that means the withdrawals are beastly. they are just demonic. so getting off of it becomes verybut, again, all of this is d of related to the vast amounts of fentanyl coming in from mexico. host: if you would like to join the conversation with our guest sam quinones, our lines are this way. if you have been impacted by the drug crisis, call (202)-748-8000 . if you are a medical professional, (202)-748-8001. everybody else can use the line

(202)-748-8002. of course, we have our social media and are texting line open, as well. speaking of supply, you wrote an opinion piece for "the washington post," with the headline -- "the fentanyl crisis is being driven by supply, not demand." this is a common belief that if there were no market in the u.s., no users, there would be no fentanyl problem. guest: yes, and i think that has been true in the past, but i think with fentanyl, i think all opioids really change our brain chemistry. they make us physically addicted to them. it is a common idea in the opioid vending world that once someone starts on it, pretty soon, that person becomes a big customer, so that dand -- essential demand starts with supply. with fentanyl, you are seeing

this in an exaggerated way. fentanyl -- again, if it does not kill you, and many die from it right off the bat -- that is another part of the story. once you have had fentanyl, and you have had it a couple of times, you get very addicted. you get addicted very quickly, and very quickly your tolerance rises. that is why we are seeing also on the street, across the country i would say, people offering services and treatment. we have a treatment bed for you. you are going to die on the street. fentanyl is going to kill you, t treatment because they are terrified from being away from the drug. i had a drug counselor tell me that my clients are afraid of two things. one, we are afraid of dying from fentanyl because they know the longer you stay on the street, you are going to die.

nobody survives long term. the other thing they are afraid of is being away from fentanyl. it is a terrible, terrible thing. because fentanyl, like all opioids, changes the brain chemistry so dramatic and squelch is the basic instinct for survival that we all possess. every animal has it. but on opioids in particular, particularly no one fentanyl, you find that people are just terrified of being away from fentanyl, even though they know it is going to kill them. host: since fentanyl is so different from other drugs, does the drug policy in the u.s. need to be evolved in response, or are the same policies we have used for crack/cocaine and others be used? guest: i think fentanyl changes things, and it changes how we need to approach this. the reporting i have done across the country the last 10, 12

years, i believe we need policies that take people off the street where they cannot leave. frequently, you see people say, i don't want treatment, or maybe i do, and then three days later they are leaving because they are terrified and neither drug. i believe there -- and they need their drug. i believe that they are calling on us so we understand that we need to take people off the street to places where they cannot leave where the drug tells them they must because otherwise, they will die on the street. so you are seeing in some parts of the country a very interesting experiment in how to do jail differently, so rethinking jail becomes an especially important part of how to address this because jail is a place where people cannot leave. they get arrested, they cannot leave because they're waiting for trial or whatever. in the past, we have thrown

peleand they vegetated to the throw away the key idea. i think we need another way, and we are seeing in certain counties where they are experimenting with dale as a place for recovery. essentially, the same services in a treatment center are now available in some jails. host: with the caveat you cannot leave. guest: which turns out to be lifesaving when you are talking about fentanyl and methamphetamine that are now on the streets and really nationwide. host: talk about meth and how it is different. guest: meth is a stimulant, an amazing idea. in the past, we had cycles of drug use. we would go from stimulants to the presence back to stimulants -- to depressants to stimulants. now we are seeing no cycles. it changes the supplies of these drugs. both synthetic area they have

changed history, so you are getting no cycles. it is just straight up fentanyl and meth together all across the country, nationwide, and unprecedented event. and methamphetamine is so potent now, the key to what has happened with meth is its potency. it is made very potent in mexico because it is so prevalent. it is everywhere. and does not need to be cut or diluted by the local dealers. who would only cut it and lead it if they wanted to extend the life, but now it is so prevalent that they can buy it anywhere, so you are finding this extraordinary -- extraordinarily potent with amphetamine is being used by people all across the country. the most potent that has been used by a population ever in the history of that drug. and the effect of that is to quickly push people into symptoms of mental illness, schizophrenia, psychosis, and i

believe a strong driver of our mental illness problem and our homelessness problem is the spread of methamphetamine. it is so potent coming out of mexico for the last 10 years or so. host: we will take calls, but i would like to ask you about the flow of fentanyl into the country, being made in mexico. how is it getting into the united states exactly? specifically. and why can't that be stopped? guest: well, we have a free-trade agreement with the country of mexico, 2000 mile border, numerous border crossings all along the border. we have trucks going back and forth, most of the fentanyl is carried, and methamphetamine for that matter, and most of that traffic is coming through ports of the border crossings. it is just that we don't have the ability -- we don't have the manpower to check each of those trucks or even a significant

percentage of those trucks. and what is more, my understanding speaking with border economists, it is likely that even if we did, it would not be in our interest to check all of them because it would cripple the economy. so much of what comes back and forth is essential to our economic structure, making products, delivering products, food, etc. host: is it being carried by american citizens? guest: i am sure some, of course. there are not only mexicans crossing the border. in fact, i know several people in the book that i interviewed were american citizens who went down to mexico. one woman was the first woman in san diego to be caught smuggling counterfeit fentanyl pills in 2018. you know, she moved to mexico to be closer to the drugs, and then was caught smuggling these. yeah, anybody who is available,

and truck drivers, too, of course, are part of this. any of the mexican, of course. -- many of the mexican, of course. it is a robust ecosystem of potential transporters and participants on the border that play a role in all of this. host: ron is first, michigan. good morning. caller: yeah, i talked about drugs for 32 years in public education, and i understand exactly what you are talking about. the question i going to ask is unusual, and i might get an unusual answer. let's assume and say i walked through a store and buy a hershey candy bar, or i buy a product with a lot of keynotes in it, can distributors of fentanyl, in order tge it is treated throughout the entire country for people who do not take drugs, and i never took

drugs in my entire life, to distribute those drugs through argument it states to individuals who might buy the product, eat it, and then find out, i am getting into fentanyl or getting into some kind of use of drugs, can they distribute that to the people in the country as a whole? host: by what, ron? you are talking about np butter and things like that -- in peanut butter and things like that? caller: the kind of products that the u.s. distribute some people by across the counter. guest: i would say that that has not happened yet, but it is happening in mexico. what you are finding in mexico with reporting from the "l.a. times" that they are finding that some of the pharmaceuticals in the so-called legitimate pharmacies on the border in mexico, and further into the

country, ordinary drugs are now containing fentanyl, and some of the methamphetamine. i would say that in the u.s., i have not heard of this happening. this is still fairly illicit. it is being sold, important to understand, it is being sold by the tens of millions in counterfeit pills, made in mexico, looking like a percocet or a xanax bar, or one of these common, ordinary pharmaceutical prescriptions. they are now coming in containing only fentanyl. again, i believe this is just a symptom of the enormous supply that they are producing in mexico, always looking for new ways of delivering the drug. kilos of fentanyl. the other way that has become extraordinarily popular down in

mexico is by making these pills, and i believe that those pills are not coming into the country in the tens of millions. it started out with a woman i interviewed in san diego, bringing in thousands at a time, and now that feels quite. host: when you say counterfeit, are you saying i could take an advil -- guest: no, no. well, it varies. but the pills that usually are being made with fentanyl and it looked like opioids, percocet, generic oxycodone, little blue pills, xanax bars. you are finding other pills occasionally. it is not so much common, ordinary headache relief. but, you know, the trafficking in mexico is nothing if not ingenious and constantly changing. host: do you think if you have

to take an opioid for a legitimate medical reason you should test your pills first? guest: i think you should get it from a doctor and pharmacist. but these are being sold on the street, on social media sites like snapchat and that kind of thing. it is not something you would get in a pharmacy. i would like to be clear on that, just so nobody misunderstands. this is like the underworld kind of version. and we know they are fake because they are selling for 50 cents to two dollars. host: lydia is on the line for those impacted by the drug crisis. new york. good morning. caller: good morning. i had one of my relatives passed away years ago, overdosed on pain medication that i am sure was probably laced with fentanyl. the one thing that we currently have, i know of someone

personally who is actually in an injury grade rehab center. the one thing i wanted to mention, it is not talked about a lot, but there are the people who do not die when they overdosed. they are brought back. they are on a ventilator, and then etc. and so on. ultimately, they can land with a lot of disabilities, problems, and issues on drugs. guest: thank you for bringing that point up. that is extraordinarily important and i appreciate the question. that has become one of the side effects of leaving people on the street and simply providing them ç:with naloxone, a miracle drug, and reviving people is important, naloxone is very important, it is as common as fire extinguishers after years of reporting on this. however, if all we are doing is reviving people after an

overdose -- an overdose is a deprivation of oxygen to the brain, it could be one minute to five minutes, but whatever it is, it is not good for the human brain. you are finding that people have overdosed and then revived, paramedics, friends, whatever, and they are slowly developing significant brain impairment because they are damaging their brains through repeated deprivation of oxygen. i wrote about this in a story in "the atlantic" in june of last year. this is one of the results. if we are going to leave people on the street, we need to understand that they will not be the same after they have bee revived. it is good to revive them and have naloxone as a tool out there, but do not think that they go back to normal.

frequently, they are out long enough to be impaired. i set up on my instagram account an interview with a woman who had 26 overdoses in 15 months. now, she is really unable to help her kids with their homework, unable to participate in conversations that are fast-moving. it is very clear to her that her brain has been damaged by repeated overdoses. this is what i fear is also happening by people saying, we are ing to let people use the drugs on the street until they become ready for treatment. readiness is not happening. people are dying before they e to develop the readiness. meanwhile, as you say, a lot of folks are developing brain impairment. it is now very widespread. host: in arkansas, diane is a medical professional. caller: good morning.

thank you for taking my call. i am retired now, but i did work for the hospital in arkansas for 15 years. i was in physical operations, but it is ridiculous what is happening in this country, and i don't think the leaders of this country care. there has been over 70,000 people that this year alone have fentanyl overdosed. 106,000 from opioids. we have all these millions of people coming over the border, bringing this stuff, and they do not care. we have homeless of 70,000 in the state of los angeles,

california. philadelphia now is missing tranquilizer with fentanyl that is causing ulcers and rotting peoples flesh off. there is trash in the streets, abandoned buildings. millions and billions of dollars that we are getting to other countries, we could clean up this mess -- we are giving other countries, we could clean up this mess," or, and stop importing all merchandise from these countries if they don't cut it down. host: let's get a response, diane. guest: that was a lot there. a lot of what this lady has to say is what i hear frequently. i travel a lot to speak around the country, and i hear this commonly.

yes, the supplies coming in are huge. i would say that it is not really coming in on people's person. that would not be able to account for the vast expansion. it is coming on a truck and in cars. you are talking major loads of this stuff. not to say people do not import it, they do, but this is really coming in because we do not have the ability for the interest in checking because it would crush our economy. i would say, just to say something about what this woman expresses, not getting too far into the details of what she said, this is absolutely a feeling out there, and it is people who cannot understand what is going on and can see all around them the effects on the

street, as she mentioned. trash, people out of their minds , why can't we do more about this? there is this feeling among so many americans that this is kind of an example of the inability to do something, and there are a lot of reasons why that is the case, and there are new ones to reasons sometimes, but i have been struck by that feeling over and over as i go cross-country. host: if we go farther upstream in the stream from the precursor materials coming in from china, can't that be stopped so that dries up? guest: i don't see why not. i mean, the chemicals that are used to make fentanyl are almost used only to make fentanyl. there are not a lot of wide-ranging use is you have for some of this stuff, so i cannot understand why china would allow

for the sale of some of that stuff. host: it weakens the united states, doesn't it? guest: it does that, without a doubt. so, yeah, with chi this is a big question that needs response. host: let's talk to sheila in new jersey. good morning. caller: hi. i am on disability, and i have been on xanax for 40 years. and i recently moved back to new jersey, and i got a new doctor, and■: they will not prescribe xanax to me. i said to my doctor, well, i guess i will get it off the street. she said, do what you have to do. so i blame doctors. i am on disability for it and cannot get help. they have prescribed me

non-narcotics. come on. guest: this is common. i am afraid that one response to the opioid epidemic, it began when drug companies began pushing for the expanded prescribing of opioid -- prescription opioid painkillers, except when they are prescribed wantonly, and that happened in the mid-1990's, that was my first book. it was all about that. and then the reaction has been from a lot of doctors to kind of cut back and say i will not prescribe it at all, it is not my business and so on, and then you are finding people like the caller who are having trouble. host: rockville, maryland. is it acuno? caller: yes, it is.

host: go ahead. caller: i appreciate you taking my call, first time caller. did want to address a couple of points and a question i had. it was mentioned that supply and not demand is the cause. the u.s. is a capitalist country, and no business runs without the demand for its products. that is one thing to take a look at. secondly, what demographic are mostly affected by the use of fentanyl? third, the u.s. has always been the leading user when it comes to drugs from marijuana, cocaine, and now dealing with this. there is obviously a huge problem within the country itself with drug use in general, particularly with the youth who

are not being educated on the impacts of the drugs on the street. so it has a harsher consequences when it comes to fentanyl, obviously, but, still, i believe we need to bring back drug educational programs in the school and community. guest: thank you. good questions. yet, with the last one, i would say that we need greater prevention efforts. really, it is a focus on prevention. i would say that my book has been used recently as something i wanted to encourage, used in the high school class in washington, and there was a class on neuroscience and the study of the brain, and i believe that is essential. we need to bring neuroscience studies into the high school. it is not hard to get that

information out there, and it helps you understand the effects of drugs. i think that fentanyl is calling on us for these prevention efforts that are essential. i would say that capitalism is prodded as much by supply as demand. nobody knew they wanted a tablet until apple invented one, right? with fentanyl in particular, especially people who are already addicted to opioids, which itself as the opioid epidemic creates supply and the demand which started with doctors inundating the country with those pills, i think this is clearly a situation of when supply is creating demand and also exacerbating event, meaning keeping people using when they are clearly in the process of killing themselves. all of this is part of the story

. it is complicated and takes a lot more explanation than we have time for here. i would say that there is, as you say, a real cultural isolation in this country that breeds using substances to alleviate the worry and the depression and so on. and that reservation and feeling of being disconnected, even though we have social media that acts as a connection. and all of this is of a culture of fast food that plays apart, sugar, creating this malaise that people look to add drugs to calm. host: are there other countries dealing with the fentanyl problem or is this an american issue? guest: this is an american issue. we created the first market for it by opioid obit of nick -- opioid epidemic, which was an

inundation of supply, creating a larger population of opioid addicted americans. they were the first to switch to fentanyl when it began to come in, and since then, it has been added to a number of other drugs. the caller mentioned which demographic groups have been affected. i would say all. what is new is that in the african-american community, this is a problem because when i wrote "dreamland," there was very little involvement of the black community. it just did not affect that part of america. now, cocaine dealers in african-american communities have figured out that adding fentanyl to the cocaine -- and this is a story in "the washington post" or they talk all about this -- very high rates of opioid overdose and death do to fentanyl among the black immunity. that is a new thing. i talked about it in my book at

the place where it first started in cleveland, ohio, and you are seeing it all across the country now. host: let's go to detroit, michigan. loraina is a medical professional. caller: yes, and i have dealt with substance abuse, and i am a recovering alcoholic. the first thing is, when people do complete treatment, even long-term treatment, such as here at salvation army, they still have fentanyl down the street area at the situation in the community is abysmal in terms of housing, transportation , in terms of all kinds of things. and we need to deal with that because a lot of folks, even people who get out of jail, and are clean, it is the same situation.

the other thing that is balancing it is why they are not usingdogs. guest: i think dogs are being used. i think dogs have been trained. my understanding, anyway. i could be corrected on that. i would say that what you are pointing out, too, is another thing that fentanyl is highlighting. i think the opioid epidemic highlighted it, as well. that is that we still don't have a continuum of care for drug addiction. we have it for cancer, heart attacks -- i had a heart attack six years ago and gave me fentanyl, but they did not put a stent in me and say you are on your way. there was a continuum of care that i am still on, frankly. i think maybe that model needs to be adopted for addiction, which means that if somebody goes through a detox or a recovery system in jail, as they do now in some jails, but then after that, you have two or three years of continual care

that involves talking about some of the things you refer to, jobs, housing, expunging criminal records, tattoo removal, etc., so there are a lot of things tried in certain counties. i just think they need to be more widespread, and it is that continuum of care, i think, that offers the best hope for long-term recovery, but is probably as much as a society can do to help folks with two or three years of that. host: columbia, south carolina, julio. good morning. caller: good morning, yo. i was listening to the guest, and he associated black people and cocaine with this drug. i did not think that was proper because every time everything goes bad in the country, even with white people doing opioids and all of that, he is trying to

associate that with black people now. since day one in this country, he associates black people with opioids. and you are trying to put us in it now. guest: i am afraid, sir, that is what is going on nationwide. i think the statistics are pretty clear. "the washington post" in the paper, d.c., baltimore, you know, the problem of drug use in the black immunity historically has revolved around cocaine. the cocaine dealers in the black community have figured out if the ad fentanyl to the cocaine, they will get a more aggressive and regular customer. so now you are finding african-americans dying f opioid overdoses and that those

opioids are really just fentanyl. that is mainly the thing. this has been going on since 2015-2016, when they first saw this. and this is something happening across the country. it is not me trying to associate black people with opioids. these are the facts reported all across america because of the way fentanyl is being used by local drug dealers, which is simply to mix it into cocaine, methamphetamine, marijuana, and sometimes these counterfeit bills coming out of mexico -- pills coming out of mexico. host: next, out of california, a medical professional. caller: good morning. i appreciate the caller's expertise and the study he has done. i have heard hyperbole, and you have mentioned a few times that if we were to stop the supply by closing the border, for example, it would cripple our economy.

do we really think it is true that we could not shut the border down, stop all import/export and not make it through in terms of our economy? that we could not pull together as a country and keep moving? guest: this is a great question. what i am telling you is what i have been told by border economists, who say that so much of our economy now -- so much of the back-and-forth is mexico, so much that the free trade agreements of mexico have essentially created this north american production unit that if we were to slow down the inspection and inspect more trucks coming across so it would maybe take a week or two, perhaps three or four, hard to say, giving us time to check more and more trucks coming across, that this would devastate the economy.

it would certainly have an effect on fruits, vegetables, what have you. making the point that a lot of the manufacturing that both countries do now depends on the back-and-forth. i am not an economist, and i don't study the border economy as well as i should, but that seemed like a credible perspective. it is possible that if you just shut down the entire border and maybe nothing moved across, the u.s. would find other ways of functioning. host: we talked a little bit earlier about china, there was news two days ago, nbc news said u.s. and china hold high-level talks on the fentanyl crisis, and they said that it was productive. guest: good. host: frank william in pennsylvania. go ahead.

william, are you there? nope. caller: i am here, sorry, i had it on mute. thank you for being there and doing everything you do. guest: you are welcome, thank you. caller: first, i apologize for my breaking down a little bit. i think this will go away in a short period. i would like to tell you that i am an orthopedic surgeon, retired. i lost my son daniel about eight years ago --yeah, i know. wow. anyway, he bought, you know, he was a big internet surfer i guess you would say. he was 27 when he died, and he found a website called mr.chemis try, and he was able to buy u47-

700's which was legal in many states. there had already been several states in the country, a couple of 13-year-olds i know about in utah i believe, anyway, he got that. and he did suffer from some depression, but he was well on his way to being a very productive and successful college student. and he died. guest: i'm sorry. caller: when that happened, i found out from investigators that he got the u47's legally on the internet, and the possession of it was legal. i went on the website, and it said you can buy this stuff. there was no criteria or credentials that had to be provided. i actually went to myself on the website and said i would like to get some of this stuff, how do i do it? they said, how much do you want? i said, a couple grams, how much is that? he said $105, how do i get it to you?

go to the grocery store, or wherever you go to spend money overseas. i did that, four days later, i had a box -- i had a pink slip in my mailbox. my wife said, don't go down to the post office and get that, they will arrest you. i did not care, i was trying to make a point to see what was going on. i get this box that says electronic accessories, i opened it up, and there are three little bags, about the size of a sucrose container with white powder in it. anyway, i went to the governor of pennsylvania, and he changed the law immediately. guest: good. host: provide ahead. guest: -- go right ahead. guest: all i can say is that is a period in our history when it was essentially pre-fentanyl, were people were selling all

kinds of drugs, designer drugs that they got from chemistry, literature, and i would say that fentanyl has changed all of that significantly because it is so parliament -- parliament. you are seeing -- prevalent. you are seeing that people are not buying those things as much. it seems like now fentanyl is the main story, where designer drugs were maybe the issue 10 years ago, maybe 10 years ago. host: conway, south carolina, kurt. go right ahead. go to cheryl in north carolina, good morning. caller: yes, good morning. . host: the right ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i just wanted to say, i keep hearing all this stuff about china, china, china. there is a book called "the art of war."

it 2500 years old. any country can use this book, but it is a blueprint to take over whatever it is you wish to take over. and to do that, you create chaos. guest: yeah. caller: and then, hopefully, the goal is to walk in basically without ever firing a shot, and the people want you to come in because everything is so chaotic. and, so, you do not destroy the infrastructure. you take over the people, you tell the people what to do. but i look at what has happened in this country, they started out by destroying our educational system. host: we are running out of time, so let's get a response. guest: i have not done any

reporting on the motives of the chinese government. i don't know china well enough to do that. i would say that on the surface, you know, people who understand what is going on from that perspective, i can understand how they understand it that way. these are debilitating products that are being made in quantities that simply boggles the mind by mexican traffickers who get the ingredients for those products from china. all three governments have a role in this. china has a role to stop that from happening. mexico has a role with their imports and deal with the traffickers. i would say that in the united states, arms those traffickers by our 110, sale of very easy

sale of assault weapons, many are continually smuggled onto mexico, who they arm the people who are making the drugs you are killing americans, so we are arming the people who are killing us, maybe along the lines of what this woman was talking about. host: the title of your book has the word "hope." why? guest: because i believe that the fentanyl/meth problem is highlighting many things we need to do as a country. we talk about some of the drug related things, but my feeling is very strongly that we need to understand the importance of community rebuilding. and through that, i think it is very interesting to watch now what is happening in some rural small towns. i have a story coming out in "the free press" soon that will talk about this. areas that work massively hit by

that opioid epidemic who are now rebounding, a very exciting american resilient way. matt through economically expecting a new walmart or big-box store, but rather in the smallest ways helping to nurture local economic development through micro-entrepreneurial business formation. and this is a remarkable thing. small town rural and small-town america is where you solve the problem mightily hit. i think this epidemic is calling on us to understand that it is a symptom of how not to live, isolated, eating crazed food that we allow to be marketed to us on every tv station, a

separation at the local level, and allowing jobs to just disappear from towns and telling them they are on their own because we believe in the free market, and it dictates that you should no longer have these jobs. to me, the fentanyl of adamic and methamphetamine is really showing us -- epidemic and methamphetamine is really showing us how we need to rethink how we are living. and i love the stories that i am finding about small towns doing it themselves, like getting up off the mat. a beautiful thing. host: sam quinones, the author of the book "the least of us: true tales of america and hope in the time of fentanyl and meth ." thank you for joining us. guest: great to be with you, thank you. host: in about 30 minutes on the washington journal, it is a conversation on the decline and its impact on communities and democracy, with tim franklin, director of the medill local

news initiative at northwestern university. first, more of your phone calls in open forum. your chance to call in with any public see topic -- public policy topic on your mind. republicans, (202)-748-8001. democrats, (202)-748-8000. independents, (202)-748-8002. stay with us. >> book tv, every sunday on c-span2, features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. at 8:00 p.m. eastern, former chief of staff christopher lavelle with his book "year zero: five year presidency," about his idea for a new transition period for incoming presiden that would start the year borthey take office. at 10:00 p.m. eastern on terwards, the rider on their book "be the revolution," on how americans are fighting institutions to bring about change, interviewed by an author

and activist. watch the tv every sunday on c-span2, and find a full hedule on your program guide oratch online anytime at booktv.org. ♪ >> henry william bryan junior has written close to 40 books in the past 36 years. the portland, oregon, native is a professor of history at the university of texas, the same school where he earned his phd in in 1985. his first american history book in 1988 was titled "cold warriors: eisenhower's generation and american foreign policy." a list of other books includes "wdrow wilson," "andrew jackson," "abraham lincoln," and many others. we will talk to dr. will brand about these and his newest

offerings about hamilton, madison, jefferson and john adams in a book called "founding partisans." >> henry william brands junior with his book on this episode of book notes, available on the c-sp free mobile, or wherever you get your podcasts. >> healthy democracy does not just look like this. it looks like this, where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informed, a republic thrives. get informed straight from the source, on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are. because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal". continues host: welcome back.

we are in open forum, and we are taking your calls this morning. first, before we do, jobs numbers have come out for january. this is cnbc, u.s. economy added 353,000 jobs in january, a much better than expected. the article says there was a surprise increase in january, inserting the u.s. labor market is solid and poised to support broader economic growth. here are the details. these are nonfarm payrolls, expanded 353,000 for the month, better than the estimate of 885,000. that was reported by the labor department, bureau of statistics today, and the unemployment rate , held at 3.7% against the estimate of 3.8%. and back to the phones, job, winter haven, florida, democrat.

good morning. what is on your mind? caller: good morning. i was calling in response to the previous conversation in regards to fentanyl and the drugs, are you up to discussing that? host: yes, you can discuss that. i just don't have the guest anymore, but go ahead with your comment. caller: well, i just wanted to make a generalized comment in regards to everything. and that is i understand that there is overdose and death, but the parents also need to be educated. and i am talking about pre-teenaged. i saw a book out on 2008 that explains to the parents, focusing on the problem of the kids not necessarily, but to help parents understand how the kids got there and what they're going through, and what type of life they are living. our problem is republicans do not want to fund treatment

programs in this country. that is the problem. they are taking out of the prison system, they take the money, and they give it to other caregivers. and that individuals with drug problems suffer. i am a retired disabled vietnam veteran. i went through the crack epidemic in the 1980's, and as a result, i was in and out of prison for 15 years. i debilitated myself in prison and the drug treatment program. i came out and have not looked back ever since. they need to put more funds into drug treatment programs. thank you. host: that's dr. joseph next in arizona. republican. -- let's talk to joseph next in arizona. republican. caller: good morning. i just want to say that regarding -- yeah, what he said before regarding our drug policy , created by nixon, enforced by

reagan, that we are only enabling the drugs and violence in this country by creating an illegal war, and we need to advise the policy. thank you. god bless. have a great day. host: roger, north carolina, independent. good morning. caller: good morning, mimi. first of all, i wanted to commend you personally for calling out a caller who calls in all the time, and you obviously recognized their voice to call in once a month. called in the other day using the name skyler. if you are listening, have respect for other people. i wanted to talk about this impeachment of mayorkas. i think it is ridiculous. the truth is, he is a lackey. he does with the administration tells him. he has nothing to do with this.

the truth is, anybody who truly believes that joe biden is in charge of anything is delusional. come on, people. you can hate trump all you want, that is fine. but open your eyes. thank you. host: let's go to orlando, florida, independent line. mike. caller: good morning. how are you doing? i just noticed lately, i see marijuana all the time in my neighborhood, what do you call it, a policy of medical marijuana? i see neighborhood. i do not want to be rude, but people should do it inside their houses and keep it away from people like me. i don't smoke that stuff. anyways, have a great day. host: another mike in wisconsin,

republican. caller: hi, i am just calling, i would like to know how come nobody is covering what is going on at the border? thank you. host: and christine in carson ville, michigan, democrat, good morning. caller: well, i have positive news. i live in michigan and in a semi-large city for a couple of years, i think twoears, we are having built a huge mental illness and drug hospital, and it is going to be specifically for people with drug usage and for mental illness, which i am very proud to say we are doing something about it. also, last but not least, if you

want to really see drugs in action, start watching these smugglers shows. the people that work at airports do whatever they do. they can spot somebody that has drugs on them or in them, and the use of dogs is phenomenal. so we are doing a great job. but you know what? this is not going to get stopped until there is not a need for it. and sadly to say, people are not happy today. host: here is some other news, the new york times on the front page, the headline, biden cuts off israeli settlers. president biden ordered broad

financial and travel sanctions on israeli settlers accused of violent attacks on palestinians in the west bank. a gesture aimed at part in american voters in the united states, who worry about the president's backing of the israel war in gaza. the executive order goes further than a director issued in december by the state department, which imposed visa bans on dozens of israeli settlers who have committed acts of violence in the west bank. they will also be prevented from traveling to the u.s. or engaging in any commerce with people in the u.s. ken is next in cincinnati, ohio, a republican. caller: yes, how can president

biden and his administration support a "two state solution" if hamas does not want israel to exist? israel is one of the states, one of the states and the two state solution -- in the two state solution. it shows how thin this is, and i think that needs to be questioned. also, hamas is the ones who attacked israel in this latest round. it seems as if this administration is looking at that through colored glasses as well, but i really think this person needs to be asked, how can a two state solution be a path if one wants to deny israel the right to exist? host: this is the secretary of

defense, lloyd austin, at his first pentagon press briefing this year, talking about the deadly attacks in jordan and the death of three servicemembers. [video clip] >> we mourn the loss of three army reserve soldiers serving et al. -- at tower 22. our thoughts and prayers are with their families and loved ones, and we know this grief never leave them. we hope that they know that the department's love and support will never leave them either. we are also praying for the other american troops who were wounded. now, our teammates were killed when a one-way attack drones struck their living quarters. we continue to gather the facts about this deadly attack.

our fallen soldiers had a vital mission, to support operation inherent resolve and work with our partners to ensure the lasting defeat of isis. they risked their lives and lost their lives to keep their fellow americans safe from global terrorism. the president will not tolerate attacks on american troops. neither will i. our teammates were killed by radical militias backed by iran, operating inside syria and iraq. in the aftermath of the violent, terrorist assault on israel on november 7, terrorist groups backed and funded by iran have tried to create more turmoil, including the who these attacking commercial shipping in the red -- the houthis, attacking commercial shipping in

the red sea. we will work to avoid a wider conflict in the region, but will take all necessary actions to defend the united states, our interests, and our people. we will respond when we choose, where we choose, and how we choose. host: by the way, secretary austen will be joining others further dignified transfer, the second dignified transfer the president has attended since he took office. let's talk to larry in washington, d.c., democrat. good morning. are you there? caller: hello? ok, what i have to say is a lot of people are in solidarity with

the palestinians. the massive bombardment, the starvation, particularly among innocents. the children, their mothers, grandparents, etc. i heard a senator on one of the other morning programs this morning collectively say, israel has the right to defend itself against aggression. this is a term that is not used. everyone says israel has the right to defend themselves, but they have the right to defend themselves against aggression, but not against innocents. you defend yourselves against people who are attacking you, you don't just murder people and call it self-defense. host: all right, larry.

let's go to greenlawn, new york. tom, democrat. caller: i am on the other topic you had earlier, fentanyl. i have lost two nephews and my best friend, so i am wondering if the death penalty should be put out if anyone does drugs. i have lost two nephews from overdose. overdose and addiction. people go to jail for the addiction, but it is the war on drugs. i don't see any of the dealers being penalized for this. they should be brought to and put to death for dealing drugs, because there is a war on drugs. my best friend died also, besides my two nephews. host: i am sorry for your

losses, tom. let's talk to carla in missouri, independent. caller: i have a program suggestion and a comment about your set. the program suggestion, i wanted to get in when the tax guy was on -- many years ago, i am 92 years old, and many years ago is probably 15 or maybe 20. you had testifying before congress about the federal budget. it was wonderful. i wish you could get -- i think one of them is dead now, but if you could get some of their staffers on and have a program on what their suggestions were. they covered taxes and simplified the tax code? it would be a wonderful program. now, about your set, i have figured out what people don't like about your set. you look like you a sitting at a speed boat about to crash

through my television screen. if you look at it, you will see that's what it looks like. [laughter] caller: it's not the background, it is the darn desk. host: you think it is the shape of the desk, it looks like a boat? caller: it looks like a speedboat and you are sitting at the helm, and you are going to run right through my television screen. it is kind of threatening. but anyway, i love c-span and i call whenever i can. bye. caller: i would like to comment on sentinel. i don't know what it is, but it must be some pill. are they reaching for another pill right away? this sounds like a serious problem for doctors. marijuana and products like opium, and i guess cocaine all

requires more exotic chemical process then burning it. this is why it is sort of minding your own business or getting involved in the transportation of small products to sample that is tying up our country in a way where gasoline and the right to drive has become a serious issue, whether you can move freely about with cash in your pocket in a car anymore, because of this exotic thing of that is an illegal thing and you will be penalized for it. that is all i have to say. host: melina, colorado, independent. matt, good morning. caller: good morning. i appreciate the opportunity. people have forgot one of the most aborted --

important tenants of our education system, be a lifelong learner. one people are -- our people are horribly ignorant. like palestine -- i concern the sentiment about the women and children, but where is the question to the parents of these poor children being maimed and killed, to these men and women being killed and maimed -- what were you thinking was going to happen when your housing, the very people who are trying to destroy your neighborhood, who is responsible for getting rid of the people who are in charge of your government, who you voted in -- that is the populists. that is the people.

the other area where we are missing the boat is on immigration. i keep hearing these people think oh, all you have to do is have a barrier. that will solve our problem. a barrier is not going to stop people from wanting to come to this country for a better life, especially when their lives are often in danger, often so woefully inappropriate that they can't even look for an opportunity for their children to have a better life, let alone -- host: all right. rich is in centerville, a. good morning, rich. caller: i would like to express my condolences to the families of the three soldiers. that being said, i know that they were reservists. i don't understand where our active duty forces are.

it would be great if you guys could maybe talk to your editor or whatever, but have a show on where we have reservists all over the world and where the deisi don't understand that. i have not heard anybody say boo about the makeup of this unit that was there. were these soldiers on their two week active-duty period for the year? something is not right when you have -- host: i believe they would have been activated if they were deployed. caller: right. i understand that, but you can be activated from an inactive status. did they send the whole company there or what? we are paying billions and billions and billions of dollars for our active duty force and we

have reservists over there -- i am not knocking reservists. i was in the military and ran a reserve center. they are patriotic people, but something doesn't make sense to me there and why they have that unit there to begin with, rather than our active duty forces, which are all over the middle east. i guess i am really asking you guys, maybe you could have somebody come on and explain why they needed to send them there. host: we appreciate the suggestion. haskell in tennessee, a republican. good morning. caller: yes, i would like to make a comment about late-night comedians. the jokes that they tell on late-night now are getting -- well, they have been for some time, very divisive. one of the things that divides

people in this country. not only do they make the jokes at night, but the early morning talk news programs, they show clips of the jokes that they tell. and i think it is a very divisive thing. i would like to see a program on tv occasionally where politicians come on and make jokes about late-night comedians . comedians think they can say anything they want to end because they are comedians, it is ok. i don't agree with that. host: all right, let's talk to max in maryland, independent. caller: thank you for taking my call. the most important thing i have heard recently was the three service members that lost their lives. it is really terrible and my

heart goes out. i feel the same way as when we pulled out of afghanistan and heard about the terrorist attack. it does seem like the administration is dithering a bit. am i right, we are not even aware of who attacked our service members? they just keep saying iran-backed, but do we not really know who even attacked us and are just taking for granted that hamas did not attack us? america is a bit confused and we are all hurting right now. one more caveat to the last discussion -- the people that are confused about fentanyl, fentanyl is a military grade opiate use on the battlefield, and it is being mixed on the streets with basically a very strong valium. people are selling these online,

bragging about it, showing markets online -- they go undercover as if they are documenting it as a humanitarian way, but you can see it is dealers advertising their products. thank you very much. host: max, going back to the strikes -- oh, he is not there anymore. that is it for the open forum. after the break, we will be joined by tim franklin, director of the metal local news initiative at northwestern university, for discussions on the impact of the decline of local news coverage on democracy. we will be right back. ♪ >> watched c-span's 2024 campaign trail, round up of -- a weekly round up of c-span's campaign coverage following candidates around the country with what they are saying to voters. this includes updated poll

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pioneer sebastian front on his work in silicon valley and the future of artificial intelligence. >> i view people with a different lens. i believe most interesting things have not been invented yet. i believe the last 150 years of humanity have been informative and invented almost everything from white switches -- light switches to running water and toilets. that is just the beginning. i care about what technologies we can invent in the future that improve the human condition and makes us better people. >> sebastian thrun, sunday night on q&a. you can listen to all of our interviews on the c-span now

app. >> healthy democracy does not just look like this. it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work, where citizens are truly informed. our republic thrives. get informed, straight from the sources, on c-span. or word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are. because the opinions that matter most are yowc-span, powered by . >> "washington journal" continues. host: welcome back. we are joined by tim franklin, the director of the medill local news initiative at northwestern university. tim, welcome to the program. let's start with the local news initiative. what do you look at and what issues do you deal with? guest: we started local news

initiative six years ago, wanting to use the r&d capacity of medill to help local news organizations at a time of we are doing research on local news audiences, helping organizations with things like business strategy and product development at a time when they may be do not have the ability to do r&d themselves. we are building new tools and working with news organizations to help them during this tough time. host: you put out a report, it's called the state of local news. the executive summary starts with, there is good news and bad news for local journalism this past year. let's start with the bad news. guest: sure. local news is really in a moment of crisis. there are now 203 entire counties in the u.s. with no source of local news -- no local newspaper, no digital out.

let, no collective media. and there are 208 counties that are at high risk of becoming news deserts in the future. there are more than 1500 counties in the u.s. if you look at the map now, that either have no local news or only one local news source. this is a problem not just for the news industry, but communities across the country and for our democracy, ultimately. host: when did you start seeing this decline? did it happen just in the past year? guest: this has been happening for a while. we started our research in the t normal year for local news in the u.s. angst started accelerating during the financial crisis in 2008 and 2009, and there has been a steady decline since then.

since the past year especially, we have seen an acceleration of the loss of local news around the country. some are calling it a media apocalypse that we are on the brink of -- i don't go that far. i think there are some encouraging signs, but i think things will get a lot worse before they get better. host: our phone lines are regional. if you would like to join the conversation, talk about news, the state of local journalism in general, please do so. eastern central time zones, you can call us on (202) 748-8000. mountain or pacific, it is (202) 748-8001. you can use our line for texting , that is (202) 748-8003, and also on social media. i want to put some your findings up on the screen so we can talk about them. residents in more than half of u.s. counties have no or limited access to a reliable local news

source, including print, digital wspapers are vanishing a an average rate of two aand the country has lost two thirds of its newspaper journalists nce 2005. digital only sites, ethnic media are small and centered around metro areas, and this is having an impact on democracy? spell it out. guest: people sometimes say to me, what does this matter? we see big read -- big box go out of business all the te. no one wants to see that happen. but when local journalism goes out of business, they are left with no local news in their

communities. my boss described it once like traffic cops. if you drive down the interstate and there are no traffic cops, you might speed. when there are no local journalists serving as those traffic cops, no one is minding the store of local government, covering the city council, the school board, the zoning board or local businesses, what is happening with them, or even connecting neighbors to one another through local news. it becomes a nameless, faceless place with no one doing accountability reporting. there has been research that shows in news deserts or low information communities, civic participation goes down, government spending rises, lower turnout in local elections. even research shows corruption rises in news desert communities.

this is a serious, serious problem with very tangible consequences. even more than the accountability role of local journalists, these are journalists that are in the community holding a mirror up to the community so that it can see itself. local news organizations are like the glue that binds a community together, so people know what is happening with their local school, with businesses down the street. what is happening with new laws or ordinances in their community they need to know about? we saw that during the pandemic, in 2000. there was a surge of readership and subscriptions, because people needed reliable news about their infection rates in communities, if their school was open or closed, if there local

restaurant was open or closed and what was happening with hospitals. local news is an essential part of communities. it is not just another business. what is driving this decline, tim? is it that local news is not profitable? guest: actually, local news is profitable in many places. not as profitable as it used to be, but 10 or 15 years ago, local news got 75%, 80% of its revenue from advertising. local news advertising has just collapsed in recent years. not completely gone away, but has declined in a very steep way. that revenue source has gone away, and many of those advertisers have gone deplatforms like google, meta, amazon and others, and are soaking up two thirds or even more of all digital advertising.

when that big revenue source went away and advertisers went to other platforms, readers shifted from print to digital, we began to see in erosion in revenue and income for local news organizations. some are making the pivot and figuring out new business models, shifting to a digital membership or subscription read but this is a historic, tectonic change in how local news has been supported. host: end of the larger state of journalism, we are seeing a lot of layoffs. the wall street journal with the headline, the messenger closes down after spending millions on an all -- ill-fated news site.

and the wall street journal shakes up the d.c. bureau with big layoffs. we are seeing more across the country. what impact do you think that will have? guest: this is kind of a perfect storm. we are losing journalists in washington bureaus and national organizations, local news organizations, just as we are heading into an election year, when citizens need reliable, accurate news information about what is happening in their communities. if you think about regional news organizations, they are providing national coverage that relates back to their home towns, their regions. when you lose that perspective, you are really taking away from people the knowledge they need to make informed decisions about the election. the timing of these layoffs, i think it couldn't be worse. i think there are a lot of reasons why this is happening now. the advertising market has been particularly weak, advertisers

sensing a news fatigue happening around the country are shifting to other platforms. i think that is part of it. we are also seeing subscription fatigue -- people have netflix and hulu and max and local news sources, and especially at a time when inflation has been high, maybe they are getting to shift away from news subscriptions. there is a real news avoidance problem right now, i think, for news organizations as well. we have seen audience declines at both broadcast and digital and print news outlets host: your report started with good news and bad news -- what is the good news? guest: we are seeing some regional organizations make a transition to a real revenue

support business model. i look at news outlets like the boston globe or the minneapolis star tribune or the philadelphia inquirer, there are others making a successful pivot to a new business model. the issue, especially with smaller and more rural outlets, do they have the scale to support a reader revenue business model? that is another question. we have also seen a growth in nonprofit digital news around the country, which is great to see. we are seeing entrepreneurs build new news organizations from scratch, but we are not building new digital organizations we are losing newt even close. and unfortunately, a lot of these start ups do not make it past the 3, 4, 5 year mark. but another thing, we are seeing philanthropy move into news in

the big way. the macarthur foundation in chicago announced a couple of months ago, it is holding a consortium with other large organizations around the country to provide half $1 billion to local news over the next five years, and it may go to $1 billion in the next five years. it could provide news or with one-way they need to figure out a new business model. that is encouraging. finally, we are seeing movement on the public-policy front to help local news, especially at the state level. there are 14 states according to rebuild local news, the nonprofit tracking this, that have passed legislation to help local news or are considering legislation to help local news. things like tax credits for small businesses to advertise in local news organizations.

tax breaks for local news organizations to hire more journalists. things like government advertising being directed to local news outlets instead of digital platforms. there are a lot of things afoot that do give me hope, and they are needed. we need to figure this out quickly, because the pace of the decline is really accelerating. host: let's go to the phones and talk to john in marysville, washington. good morning. caller: good morning. you've touched on a lot of areas where you would believe the news organizations are slowly declining. for a lot of different reasons except what is really going on. basically, the news outlets these days have become so political.

they are so one-sided. when you are watching the local news, especially here in the state of washington, when i am watching the news, i have to turn it off pretty quick. they don't report the truth. they are more or less not really being journalists or investigating route causes of issues going on in the state of washington. then they hide the fact that our local politicians and our governor are the most responsible for the things that are going on negatively in our state. and tell the news outlets around thco nationally, i understand being one-sided and biased in their political views, there are a lot of people who do not watch the local or national news because they cannot get the real news. that is what is going on. host: what do you think, tim?

guest: thank you for the question, and for getting up early in washington to ask it. there is a problem with news, no question about it. the number of people avoiding the news because there is so much bad news happening in the world these days. certainly, what i have seen, people do trust local news than they do national news. it is like congress. people like their local congressperson, but do not like congress. these are journalists, often without high compensation at all , who are out in the community, at the little league diamonds, the school board meetings, the community events. they are your neighbors, people you know. they are covering issues that should not be or are not partisan. what is the road construction

happening in the local community? what is happening with the local businesses or restaurants in town? these are not partisan stories, or should not be. i think especially, people look at national broadcasts or national cable organizations, and cn ideological bend, no doubt about it. but i would draw the distinction between that and what people are doing in local outlets. caller: thank you for taking my call. is it the lack of journalists -- well, the older journalists? they have taken away the classified section in newspapers. host: tim, what happened to the classified sections? guest: back in the

mid-aughts, we saw craigslist move in to take classified advertising. other platforms would have if craigslist had not, but car ads and real estate ads, movie ads have shifted to real estate platforms -- real news platforms to digital. that was a major source of revenue for news organizations that came in -- they had salespeople out, needing to sell what was going in the classified sections, joba lot of that reves shifted to online platforms for good, and audiences find the m easier to use and search, so i don't think that revenue is coming back, certainly not the print version. host: bronson, florida.

good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for this wonderful discussion. here in florida, and the largest county, we have been battling all sorts of things. a tollroad coming through our county when there are two divided highways, pipelines, projects. huge projects. lately, they have decided to put industrial mining sites in neighborhoods. our problem is, we only have two weekly papers owned by the same company, and the digital papers we do have don't want to print anything controversial. nor do the regular paper newspapers, want to print anything controversial. especially if it goes against the older families and the ones with the most money. when rupert murdoch can by wall street journal, national

geographic, all these places, it looks like to me that a good investigative journalist like what we have here, we had one and he was let go for covering a county commission meeting about something that many of the residents were opposed to. he was let go because the person who owned the paper had a bias in that way. what i see is the bias coming through in so many of the ownerships of the news media, so we cannot get straight up journalism, straight up facts. it has all been politicized and generally the ones with the most money make the rules and shut this down or piped this up. host: what do you think, tim? guest: you are raising great points. thank you for the question.

you are pointing to why we need investigative reporting, accountability reporting and aggressive reporting in local communities. local communities are increasingly going without it. we have seen in a number of news organizations unfortunately a loss of investigative reporting at the local level, because that takes time, a lot of work and interviews and sourcing to get right. this is a serious problem, and i am glad that you raised it. i think a number of news organizations, especially as budgets have tightened up, are worried about potentially alienating readers and maybe have that in the back of their minds. what you are pointing out is exactly why we need to get this figured out, so folks in your county in florida know what is happening and why it is

happening. host: eileen is next, in north carolina. caller: hi, thanks for taking my call. i wanted to highlight some of my small-town journalism experience, because i am miss small-town newspapers too. your previous caller was talking about the politicalization of newspapers. in the ones i worked for, the political differences were reallysome small town papers, ty were called the whatever democrat and the whatever republican. people bought the paper based on what they believed. i worked in the newspaper

business in the 1970's, 1980's, and 1990's. i am retired now, but i don't think you ever truly retire from journalism. i have watched the change and demise, and it is a little bit heartbreaking because i love local news. i am hearing a few words of encouragement, but i think basically, the ad department and the newsroom will always survive over stories we should not run because an advertiser might pull out, something like that. i would love to see a return to local newspapers, because there is local news, local social news, obituary news, so i am so glad there is a movement here. host: go ahead,m3 guest: thank you for the

question. there is not even a question, going back to the republic, there have been news owners with partisan bends trying to impose their ideology on folks. that has been since the history of our country. in local communities, where journalists like yourself worked for many years, the issues should not be partisan and do not need to be. my hope is, we will see a return to quality through all of this transition happening now. there is so much misinformation and disinformation in social media, and i am hearing it from the callers this morning, but folks would like to get back to a time when we had accurate, down the middle news and

information. kind of a return to that quality. my hope is that we may see that. i think it is often the distance quite honestly, but i think there will be more and more of a demand for that from audiences. host: we are taking your calls on the state of local journalism in general. for the next 15 minutes on our lines by region. eastern and central sign -- time zones, (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific, (202) 748-8001. elizabeth is in connecticut, good morning. caller: good morning. i'm having trouble -- should turn down -- host: yes, mute the tv completely. caller: i'm calling because the thing that i am aware of, i am a

retired college librarian. i have been following these stories, especially in the last two weeks, with all of these things. i've heard what was happening in washington with the wall street journal dropping reporters, etc. , but the thing to me that has never been addressed fairly is the fact that the news aggregators such as google news at -- et al. do not have to pay for the news they send to everyone online. it is the online news sources providing google, etc., with the opportunity to put the news out.

it is not working. i am also finding that right now, i am not happy. i am no longer happy with the searching and the online material. it is getting more and more complicated to use, harder to find the straight news again. i would really like a good explanation of what the decision was that companies like google could take the news and not pay for it? it comes up over and over again. guest: that's a great question and i am happy you asked it. i think we are headed towards potentially a major public policy debate or additional litigation over tech platforms' use of local media content,

which is a big, big issue right now. in the beginning, when google and other platforms began using local news on their sites, the thought was that the local news organizations would get traffic from that search engine and reap advertising revenue from that clique. but when you click through the link to get to the local news organization, that would provide a steady source of revenue for local news organizations. as you suggested, this isn't working. there is legislation pending in california that would help reimburse local news organizations from the digital platforms for using that content. there is been legislation in australia, canada, and other places that would allow for tech platforms to reimburse or

compensate local news organizations with revenue for platforming. that could be a game changer for local news organizations, if they can get some revenue back from the tech platforms for use of that content. but you put your finger on what will be a very big issue over the course of the coming months and years, especially as the local news crisis worsens. there will be more of a focus on tech platform use of local news content host: our next caller inverter, florida -- in vernon, florida. caller: i have not worked, and then i retired. i moved down here to florida, and it has been horrible down here since donald trump came in.

he is out there saying that the media is the enemy of the people. and people cheer for that and think that is wonderful.they are banning books down here and planning these weird culture things, and want to push them into politics so bad. it is confusing. my wife is handicapped, because i don't work because of the craziness going on down here. we had a sheriff that posted on x, what used to be twitter, that democrats are the problem and the enemy of them. they are paid for by tax dollars, but not our tax dollars, because we don't pay taxes here in florida. guest: it has become politically fashionable to beat up on the

media and demonize the media these days. it has become a line that is used often in political platformsaa recently. what it has led to the diminishment of trust of news organizations across the country, particularly the ones tied up in the debate. i think trust is a major issue and as a cause for some of the loss we have seen happen in local news recently. part of that, maybe a large part of it, is because of this demonization of journalists and what we do. many are trying very conscientiously to do their jobs . there are organizations working to rebuild that trust.

it starts with transparency from a news organization and how they report the news, do the work that they do, to being interactive with their audiences and responsive to questions that come in, so there is a greater understanding of what happens. i also think there is a meeting for news media literacy education that is happening. if you are on facebook, on your feed, informn is flying at you and it is often hard to tell where it is coming from. you don't know the source of that news or information. helping news consumers better understand where this information is coming from -- is it accurate, reliable, is in an

organization -- is it an organization that policies? host: terry is next in salem, massachusetts. caller: i'm calling to say, i don't believe in any of the people who say that the media is biased or fake or controlled. this is simply something that started years ago with republicans, who, by the way, the people who think it is fake news, liberal media and biased, they are voting for trump. let that sink in. even on this program, mimi and the other hosts have been accused of being liberal or democrat because you do not kiss the ring of donald trump. host: any other comment? guest: not really, beyond what i

have already said. this should not be a partisan issue. the loss of local news is happening in rural areas, in the suburbs, urban areas, but the biggest loss has been in suburban areas outside of big cities, which tend to be more purple or independent leaning. the local news crisis, mimi, this should not be a partisan issue. this is a problem happening all over the country, affecting republican aredeareas and so fo. one of the things that concerns me the most in a local news crisis, we are seeing the news haves and news have-nots.

news is plentiful in urban areas. in chicago, we have seen growth in digital news organizations, which is heartening. but in parts of the midwest and the south, we have seen a big loss in local news. that is what is really concerning. if you look at our map, you can draw a straight line from the texas border through the■ dakotas. there are counties with no local news or only one local news source. so where do people turn? they turned to social media, national news sources, may be ones that reinforce their own belief sets. in terms of the local news situation, this should not be a partisan issue. host: pew research reports with this headline, audiences are

inclining for traditional news media in the u.s. with some exceptions. is that decline caused by the lack of availability, or is it the other way around? guest: that's a fantastic question. it's a little bit of both. first off, people are awash in news media and organizations. you get overwhelmed and tend to tune it out, so i think there is a news avoidance issue. but there is also an accessibility issue -- we have not talked about this, but there are big parts of the country without access to broadband. there are some counties known as double desert counties, where there is no local news or broadband information. if we think growth of digital only local news sites will help solve this -- i think that is part of the solution here -- but if there is no broadband access

in these areas, you will have limited success with building digital news outlets. it is a sense of feeling overwhelmed by the news and avoiding the news, and also an accessibility problem. so media's fault. host: joe calling us from chicago. good morning. caller: i wanted to add my two cents to the conversations. i would suggest for your listeners to check out the fairness doctrine, in 1987, it was repealed by reagan, which took most of the guard rails for newspapers and radio broadcasts off and allowed commentators to become skewed in their opinions, and i recall watching channel nine here in chicago.

i often saw commentators with a number of viewpoints permitted to come on the show and show another viewpoint to balance the conversation. the same guardrails that were revoked under print media, television and radio are the guardrails we need to put on the social media platforms that are causing havoc among our children in this country. that is all i had to offer. host: tim, the fairness doctrine? guest: there has been no question, we have seen a proliferation of more ideological focus media since the fairness doctrine was eliminated in 1987. now we are seeing that for commercial reasons, news outlets and the splintering of news audiences, we are seeing outlets

of all kinds, on the left and the right, that have emerged. they are doing it in part because it is profitable for seen the emergence now of so-called pink slime local news sites, that stuff in ground meat that comes up? we have local news outlets, digital and in some cases print, that are ideologically focused and pretty much just propaganda outlets. they look like news organizations, but they are not transparent about who owns them or what their ideological bent is. there are 1200 of these so-called pink slime news sites across the country, and thais a trend that is also very concerning. host: john is next, in missouri.

good morning. caller: good morning. correct me if i'm wrong, but journalists used to have to prove whatever they said and have something to backup their story. if i remember right, during the first part of the obama administration, he signed a bill into effect that said the media could lie. is this true? guest: well, i am not aware of that. at all. legitimate journalists do fact checking, they correct their mistakes when they make mistakes. news organizations are subject to libel and defamation laws, in egregious examples, but i am not aware of a law that was signed that gave media organizations permission to lie. host: let's get to fort

mitchell, kentucky. caller: thank you, mr. franklin, for bringing up this important issue, and mimi, you are fabulous. i am on the city council, and my mantra is the people's right to know. i want to bring civic engagement, bringing peoples people to the process. we have two local papers in kentucky, they are both liberal but go to frankfurt and bring up what our legislators are doing. we also have president i have hd her speak. she has retired but she has continued -- host: janine? we are just about to lose you. caller: can you hear me? host: go ahead quickly. we can hear you now.

caller: sorry about that. hi find out we do have the first amendment. i'm a constitutional conservative. we have freedom of speech in the process of the people to air grievances to an assembly. we have open records laws. i found out we are violating a lot of those laws within our local counsels. i want to say hats off to ky and link in the northern techie tribune. host: any comments? guest: thank you for that. i'm happy to hear that a northern kentucky you have local journalists that are providing essential information to your community and are doing it conscientiously. host: georgetown with ray. caller: good morning. i was thinking about purchasing a local newspaper.

is there record problem -- host: which lawsuits? caller: this libel. something about a person that may not be true. you thought it was true when you reported it. host: the use of libel laws, tim? guest: they are being used. in some cases used increasingly. the legal system does allow journalists wide latitude to report the news and to provide opinion on local matters that are happening. without going deep into the rabbit hole of libel law, it is an issue. especially when reporting on public affairs, on matters of

local government. local journalists have wide latitude. that is not stopping some folks from filing lawsuits against them. host: tim franklin. thank you so much for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. good to be with you. host: thanks to everybody that watched and called in. we will see you again tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern happy groundhog day. between e -- we take you to a summit about nuclear threats and deterrents featuring officials from the pentagon and state department. his hosted -- it is hosted by exchangemonitor. it is just getting underway. >> just the narrow focus of nuclear deterrents. having recently served as a commissioner on the strategic, posture commission is incredibly