[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]c-span.

>> "washington journal" continues. host: we are continuing our showcase of authors across the political spectrum. joining us is david pepper, the former chair of the ohio democratic party. we are going to discuss his book. the title is "saving democracy: a user's manual for every american." good morning, david.

thank you for joining us. guest: great to be with you. host: great to have you. let's start off with the book. you compare in the book the struggle for democracy to other fights in our history such as the fight for civil rights, women's suffrage. can you explain how the current climate compares to those fights in the past? guest: since the civil rights era, and a lot of americans have begun to take democracy for granted. we assume it is a speakers -- it is safe because we are the united states. because of that and because of how it has gotten, my worry has become -- i wrote this before the 2024 cycle so it is not only about the next presidential race. i worry that what we are not seeing is that our democracy

itself is at risk for a variety of reasons. one reason is we look at politics as being only a two year cycle. we have a short-term mindset when it comes to politics. when you realize that the battle we are in is not just about a few senate races. it is actually a battle for democracy itself. that is a battle that starts with statehouses and other state-level positions across the country. once you realize the battle is for democracy, you realize we are in long battle. it is not only about a few swing states. i tried to show people that you are in the same position now and you need to think about the way you engage and try to protect democracy, as a john lewis work.

they saw it as a battle they had to wage every day. they saw it as a battle they had to wage everywhere. john lewis did not just try to win a couple senate seats in a few states. he knew what he was engaged in was bigger than that. he also did not stop fighting after november 8 and think the election is over, now i am going to take a break before the next election. he knew he was bigger, it was longer. if you look at what is happening in america, with gerrymandering, almost every election is guaranteed from the outset, or the censoring of books or the violent rhetoric your hearing, or judicial orders being ignored, if you see the things happening, we would say to americans, that is not a democracy. a lot of those things are

happening right now in the u.s.. we should see it as the alarm it is to a healthy democracy and fight back accordingly as opposed to thinking this is usual politics. it is not. we are reaching an alarming point of a lot of abnormal things getting normalized. that is why i try to say to folks, think of the battle of politics not as some parts about every two years, but a broader battle for democracy. once you see that, you fight for democracy more effectively than if all you do is think about it as a battle for a few swing states. host: i went to give our viewers the numbers to call in. this is author david pepper who has written a book titled "saving democracy: a user's manual for every american." if you have a question for him or a comment about politics or

the state of democracy, we want you to start calling in now. republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. we will get to your calls in just a moment. there is an excerpt from your book that has a bleak assessment. i am gd read it. it's is beyond the halls of gornment, signs of authoritarianism are emerging in american society more broadly. armed intimidation, violence and domestic terrorism, natiolism and nativism, active and repeated this information, corruption, anti-semitism, white supremacy, other forms of extremism, and mh it being mainstreamed and normalized. this is not ourng in faraway foreign capitals, it is not the

american south in the 1880's and 1890's when the kkk emerged to destroy the new democracy ushered in by reconstruction. this is a view of american politics in state after state and in the nation's capital today. that is a bleak assessment. i think a lot of people say american democracy was able to overcome jim crow, it was able to sustain itself even through those moments. why should we not be confident american democracy can withstand the current culture wars and political climate? do you think that is the right or wrong assessment? guest: i am glad you asked that. the title of my book is about saving democracy. i am an optimist. i don't think we will save it unless we see the problem.

the entire book is about all the things anyone listening can do to start playing a role to turn things around. some of the history is horrible. some of the damage was done for decades. at the same time, there are things we can do right now if we see the problem clearly. if we do not see the problem, then i worry. if we see it individually, the reason i wrote this book is whether it is running for office or school board were engaging voters or becoming an elections official, or making sure your school board is not censoring history, the treat -- the truth is there is much more we can do. over the last year, many of these things have been bipartisan. we have seen a winning streak for democracy since i wrote this book. i am sitting in ohio, in

cincinnati, i am very proud of my hometown. there was an effort to censor democracy. they tried to raise the threshold to amend our constitution to 60%. politicians in columbus did not want a majority of ohioans to amend their constitution. they tried to undermine our democracy and republicans, democrats, and independents came together on a special election and said no, we value our democracy. the good news is -- that is why this book is about everyday americans seeing the problem and stepping up. the good news is we have seen whether it is ohio in the special election, wisconsin where we see the end of gerrymandering, we saw election deniers lose office in 2022.

if we see the problem, there are some of things we can do to make sure we do not become those countries like hungary. there is a way out. there is still time for all of us to save the day. no one is coming to save us. it is on all of us. it is not too late. in 2022 to 2024, it can be a good window of time where we have made huge progress in protecting democracy in a moment when it is under great risk. host: let's go to the phone lines. your numbers, republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8002 --202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. our first caller is alex in brooklyn, new york on the democratic line. caller: good morning. thank you for such a good segment.

thank you, mr. pepper. everything you are discussing here are things i worry about everyday. on the last part of what you just said about ohio, i wish i could be optimistic. i am a daily listener of c-span. you can see even in this program with all of the information available, with all of the people that come on and have debunked so many conspiracies, so many talking points that republicans preach over and over again, you see an erosion of democracy almost monthly in a way that people have a worldview. you talk about ohio. republicans are trying to change the will of the people on abortions because they are

saying that people make moral choices. even if it is a democratic vote, it is an immoral vote so it doesn't count. you have far right christians that are in progress right now. starting with johnson, that believes you have to have the right way or there is not a way and it is their only way of saying it is our way or there is no way. it is almost as if you have any autocratic tendency within the system. you cannot win. there is no way of winning a news cycle where a million lies are put out there, even if they get corrected and fake electors agree. it is still in the conscience of the people that are seeing all of this stuff. i do not care for democracy anymore. what do you do? not for people like us who care, but for the millions of people who support autocratic tendencies, support the former president saying we are

poisoning the blood of this country. host: i want to step in. let's let david respond. guest: thank you, a really good question and for concerns. it is a long struggle. as much as i agree with you about some of the challenges, i also think they tried in ohio and they lost. not just on the special election in august but in november again, republicans, democrats, independents voted to protect a woman's right to choose. that is holding right now. we have to make sure they don't do something to undermine it. there is an instinct right now in politics to not be for democracy. sometimes they say it, they will tackle -- attack they were

democracy. one of the problems right now, because of gerrymandering, basically they draw districts -- draw districts they cannot lose. what we have in many states, we have politicians like the current speaker who have basically been in office the entire time without worrying about getting reelected. they have been in districts that were drawn so they cannot lose them. they have been in districts from the outset. their entire career. one of their problems is they themselves have never been through democracy. i used to be in local office. i always had to win an election to get any office. i knew i had to appeal to the people. in america, we have a generation of politicians that have never been in an election themselves.

their instinct is not very democratic. in some cases they are afraid of it because it is the one thing that will cost them their election. the speaker is a great example. the first time he ran for the statehouse, no opponent. second time, no opponent. this first three runs for congress, 35% margin of victory because of mentoring -- because of gerrymandering. now he is speaker. we have to structurally fix politics so people in politics have to feel accountability to people. that means at least a level if you can end gerrymandering which we can do in ohio, you do it. i hope the code stuart -- liquid stuart. -- i hope the courts do it. if we can ever get a majority to agree with it, they have to pass

reforms to end gerrymandering. otherwise, i agree with the caller, you have people in these offices who have ever faced elections and i have an incentive to suppress democracy because they worry if they are in democracy they will lose their next election. they probably would because many of these politicians are too extreme for the people in their districts. that is one of the hearts of the problem, people in january -- in gerrymandering. we have to fix that to fix things long-term. ohio right now, we are trying to have 2024, any amendment on our ballot to end gerrymandering once and for all. guest: -- host: we have moses in lakeland, florida on the republican line.

caller: hi. can you hear me? guest: yeah. caller: i have a question for david. host: go ahead. caller: we talk about election integrity. i had a quick question. in 2020, you had five swing states that changed their election laws in the middle of an election to allow mail in ballots, no signature verification, no ids. the laws changed in the middle through fiat. how would you reconcile that and prevent that from happening in the future? guest: i don't know if they

changed through fiat. one of the things that happened in 2020's people were voting but scared to death because of covid. there were dropbox is added and people wanted to vote by mail because they did not want to stand in line for an hour. people were literally dying of covid. in the primary, the fear was there still in the general. democratic and republican states tried to accommodate that. drug -- dropbox's got a lot of attention in 2020, especially when people in democratic states started to use them. selleck city, utah had a dropbox is for years. anchorage has had dropbox's for years, it was not viewed as a problem. other states in 2020 -- i was one of them trying to do this in ohio -- people because of covid

said can't we voted that way? some states of both parties do it. no one thinks there is fraud. there has never been far proven. a letter people chose to vote by mail because of covid to stay safe. it was obviously like it has been in salt lake city, there are ways to do it securely with cameras. in georgia, they allowed it. in michigan and other places they had it. it turns out more people voted despite efforts to show that there was a lot of fraud, it was never born out. i think people made adjustments. this did not happen last-minute. all summer and fall elections officials were trying to manage an election of knew was going to be a lot of people during covid. they used practices that states of both parties had used and it turned out it used to have higher turnout but safer voting

because he did not just stand in line with people coughing and spitting covid -- and spreading covid. the codes wait -- liquids weighed in on how to make adjustments. my guess is you not see that level of change late in an election year. a lot of it was driven by concerns of how you vote during a pandemic. i am a lawyer. i teach election law. i generally have faith that courts and elections officials in many states, in ohio for example, you have every decision you are talking about you have democratic and republican officials signing off to make sure things are done fairly. host: i want to ask you a question we received via text message from robert in hazard, kentucky. "what can we do in our personal

lives to help save democracy? how does he think we can talk to our neighbor about democracy without stepping on their toes?" guest: that is a great question. having grown up a dukes of hazard fan, it is great to hear from hazard, kentucky. i am tempted to reach for my book. host: we can surely cover for you. guest: i have a diagram of a footprint. everyone of us has a footprint of influence in our lives that i believe most of us do not fully use to lift democracy. people get involved in politics and they think two things. i will volunteer the last couple of weeks to get people vote and maybe i will give money to a candidate or two i like.

that is the extent that most people get involved in politics. that is too small, that is like putting your pinky to in and not your foot. everyone who cares about democracy, think about everything you do. are you part of a nonprofit? are you part of a church, any alumni group? where do you work? are you in a community group where you talk to your neighbors? are you in an apartment building or you can organize seniors to vote or have a forum about how to vote early? here is an example also did this, senator brown of ohio, when he was secretary of state, he worked with mcdonald's to make sure every mcdonald's had a voter education form on every tray in ohio. do you volunteer at a local food pantry? have you asked the food pantry

are you registering voters you serve food to? you could. my answer to the first part of this question is to make a list. list everything you do socially, professionally, as a volunteer, social media. think, am i using all of that to this democracy? both through nonpartisan ways like encouraging people to vote or my earlier answer, i think we had a crisis of people who never fears competitions. in hazard, you have an incumbent who does not have any opponent. now is time to start thinking about can someone run against them? politics does not work well when most people don't have any opponent. think about your footprint in the world in all of the ways you personally can make a difference. one reason to do this is when

you realize the battle for democracy is not about can you win five senate seats. everywhere in this country from kentucky to lakeland, florida to brooklyn, everyone has able to play in engaging voters in running for school board, the front line of democracy. everyone's footprint is relevant instead of thinking all that matters is that a candidate a hundred miles away winds. -- away wins. i don't like to get into the arguments. if someone and i don't agree about politics, i don't think going to your neighbors house and getting in any argument makes a difference. it probably leads to a bad neighbor. what i would say is talk to your network. don't get into some big -- if someone on the other side has a different view, if they are

hearing from the world, try and find common ground and talk to them that way. if you find yourself in 20 minutes shouting matches. for that person, i would say that is not been able to win over. that vote is not someone you're going to win over. find people you are not in these debates with. one piece of advice i give is, try to get to issues that are not as partisan. i believe one of the biggest problems in america is that the outcomes for everyday people from broken politics are really bad. we see school to four days a week. we see small towns in ohio dying , no infrastructure, no hope. what i put in my book is if you want to win people over, whether you are running for office or

any activist, start focusing on the things that are not that partisan they are first treated with. wouldn't it be great to have five days a week of school again so you don't have to worry about what your kids are doing on fridays, what you are doing on fridays? you want a better education for them or your small town is struggling. try to find the things you have in common that are less partisan. if we get beyond the crazy national stuff, there are many of those things at the local level that my guess is you could break bread within a bronc and have a good conversation. host: let's go back to the phone lines. if you have a question for david pepper or a comment about saving democracy, the numbers are, if you are a republican, 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002.

with that, we are going to go to the independent line. paul is calling from new york city. caller: you have a duopoly. you only have two choices. those two addresses on a national level -- those two choices on a national level are not looking great for a vast minority -- vast majority. there is no u.s. senator who is the result of gerrymandering. the states are not gerrymandered themselves, the state-level elections. i think you have to realize that representative democracy is not the same as direct democracy. if you look at proposition 16 in california which overwhelmingly passed the state legislature and was viewed by governor brown -- vetoed by governor brown at the time because it was unconstitutional. when they tried to change it to

a ballot initiative, it failed. it is often extremely different than what the state legislatures actually pass. we can point to ohio, i think things could be a little bit different. the reality is you have a population that is unaware of the name of their congressman. i'm not sure that has to do with gerrymandering. i think you mean more competition and may be more parties. i'm an independent. guest: direct democracy is what

saved ohio this year. we have a legislation that put in abortion bands with no exceptions that only 10% of ohioans agree with and then we had a direct democracy vote in the side that believes in reproductive rights one. i feel like direct democracy is a great solution but only 18 states have it. there are a lot of states that think we want to put our constitution with the same productions and they can't do it. gerrymandering is not the only problem but one of the ones i have talked about it is the original sin of a lot of these legislatures. i will push back a little bit.

even though we have statewide officeholders. but the super majority in the legislature runs over the governor when they don't do what he wants. he would be more moderate if given a chance. and now he has caved in. these legislatures in many states dominate the politics. nobody even knows who these people are and they cannot lose. the gerrymandered legislatures all over this country and they are gerrymandered in the south, they create systems where it's not really a democracy. there more like laboratories of

autocracy. if you un gerrymandered these statehouses they would still be red statehouses. but there would not be a single member are not worried about election. that's taking place in places like ohio and turning them extremists. i believe even if you want your party to win, you should not let them win because they're guaranteed to when but because they when in a fair and competitive district. whatever party wins the majority, they will serve the party better in a competitive system as opposed to where everything is locked up.

third parties, we had a third party for a number of years and i think it brought in a healthy mix. sometimes they would endorse a republican or democratic candidate. they can play a role. another place someone would look to do more is the primary system. it's creating an incentive to be very extreme. the states that are beginning to have this nonpartisan primary where multiple candidates run in the same primary. then the top four people go to a runoff and that runoff is decided in a variety of ways.

that is leading to more reasonable outcomes. that might make more room for people in both parties. thus another big reform american should take a look at. host: melvin is in arkansas calling on the democratic line. melvin, are you with this? caller: yes i am, good morning. the election was not stolen but donald trump has said that they were stolen. he was the one that called down to georgia, tried to get the election turned over.

he is the one that's actually damaging our democracy. guest: and now we learned last week he did the same phone call in michigan. my hope is, this is a hard topic for 2024. my hope is that by both loosing an additional accountability. there is enough accountability for what he did in georgia and there is a georgia case, a federal case, a michigan case. we will find out if he is disqualified. my hope is there is enough accountability after what he did that it never happens again.

if you think something did not happen right in the election you go to court. you don't call officials and threatened them. that phone call with the georgia secretary of state was horrific. that is not allowed. there needs to be accountability. i am frustrated that it is taken so long. we should not be this close with the guy who tried to steal an election being able to win again. there are ways to challenge elections if you don't like something that happened. if something seems amiss, you can go to court and do it. he pursued those options and lost everyone. that's it, that's the ballgame.

if he made calls to michigan and georgia, do you think he stopped there? there needs to be clear accountability so in the future, they realize if after the court cases are over and you don't keep going because there was accountability for it. that was clearly an attempt to overturn an election and built into january 6. it is unspeakable what happened after the november election of 2020. host: next we have jamie from new jersey on the republican line. caller: i like what you are saying about getting involved.

i am kind of insulted. crt and age inappropriate books. i don't want my little grandchildren reading about sex when their brain can even fathom the thought. that should not be in school. it is not age-appropriate. crt is not american history. you want to talk about democracy. you are running on abortion issues. you are running on race baiting. i was a pregnant teenager, i didn't get welfare or food stamps. in the name of all that is holy and good, you would have aborted

my children. you would have aborted my nephew. in using the context of incest, that is less than 1%. planned parenthood does not give mammograms or check for std's. they simply end of the human heart the. i am insulted as a woman that your crt and book banning is your agenda. what little children be innocent and little. guest: merry christmas to you as well. a lot of things to respond to.

on a serious topic, nobody would have made you to make that choice. you made a choice to have your children and no law in any state would have told you otherwise. what ohioans voted on was they also believe they have the choice that you exercised over your own family, they want the same choice. it's not for government, that's a decision. my guess is missouri would vote similarly and make the same decision that it is up to each woman to make a decision on what is best for her and her family. i want to talk about crt. you talk about age-appropriate. i did not hear the term until i

was in law school. it was an elective in law school that was taught. this idea that the critical race theory is somehow a part of universal teaching in high school or lower is just not the case. it is a high level course on how to look at the law going back centuries and i think it's an appropriate way to see the law and teach and think about it. it's an appropriate thing to be taught in law school. i have a nine and six-year-old that this is being introduced in elementary or middle school, that's not accurate. if you take much time and study our country's history, you are not teaching the history of our country if you are not teaching

african-american history. if that is not a core part of a history course, you are not teaching it. the struggle of african-americans in this country through the founding, reconstruction and civil rights era. that is our country. you don't separated out or added to the end of a chapter. it's the hardest part of our history but also the most inspiring. so yes, we wanted taught. one of the things that make america phenomenal is how african-americans have overcome since the voting rights act. so tried to remove that part is to literally pull out the heart of american history.

you don't know american history if you don't have a good understanding of the struggle of black americans from before our founding through the civil war, through reconstruction including the underground railroad and the heroes there. through jim crow and the incredible leadership and heroes of the civil rights movement that is american history. and on the final point, we have a lot of miles of liberty montrose. and they lost everywhere. moms for liberty lost because

most people trust teachers and librarians to get the balance right for children. they can make the decisions about what is age-appropriate. and i think the reason you saw mainstream candidates when the school races because there is a trust level that you should trust teachers and librarians rather than others. that's why you see this consistent result in school board races across the country. host: let's take another call from brent and knoxville, ohio. caller: greetings from ohio.

as a county chair i am glad to see you on the show. so people know what we are putting up with ohio with anti-democracy movements which is being fueled by our secretary of state and the legislature who said no more special elections and all of a sudden they had a special election to try and change that 60% to change the constitution. i am so glad that weight that we -- that went the way it did. and letting a woman to make choices about her health care by yourself. i hope those same percentages carry-on and we can reelect sharad brown. happy new year. host: let me read a text message

we received from jimbo in bakersfield. california indepde voter, can he speak about the idea of no longer valuing democracy because of this form of government's inability to not place 90% of the wealth and 1% of the populace? guest: that is a great question. i think it is a great question and starts to explain some of the frustration with younger folks. we have to start showing that it democracy leads to results for every body.

this is in part because of citizens united, it is over prioritizing those doing the best getting more. young people are seeing student debt up to their eyeballs. when you talk to your neighbors and you only bring up democracy and not every day issues they may not be all there because they think is not working out for me right now. i vote but i can't make ends meet and i have so much dead in the 1% are doing so well. there is an issue that no matter what happens, they are not getting through the democratic system. i think we have to do a lot

about things like monopolies that are allowing a few to do very well. i think we need a fair tax policy and push on things like student debt relief. so every day americans can feel like they are getting ahead. it has reached a point with absurdity with how much people struggle. the dollars that people are making on the high-end and that disconnect ends up being a danger to democracy if people don't think it works for them even if they vote every time and the people they vote for women and they don't see a change, it starts to lead to people either not participating or not believe in democracy in democracy and the way we always have.

host: back to the phone lines, tim is calling from maryland, the independent line. you are on. caller: good morning, how are you? host: what is your question? caller: i have a question. american politics is very divided at this point in time. i was wondering if david could give a perspective on how the american could address politician ship and its wea ponization? guest: i think gerrymandering leads to bunch of it. once you know you are going to win your general election because your district is rigged the only thing you worry about is that you will lose your

primary and the only way you lose your primary is if you are not extreme enough. i don't think those republicans believe joe biden should be impeached or they should kick out tennessee representatives. but they knew that if i don't vote to impeach joe biden someone will challenge me in my next primary and they will probably beat me. it does lead to a lot of the partisanship the only thing you worry about in life is somebody will say you are too moderate and that's how you loose the primary. one of the reasons i enjoy coming on the show is because there are not many shows where you hear from people from missouri, ohio you hear all of

it. i used a knock on doors when i was a local politician and i am old enough that when i knocked on doors i didn't just knock on democratic doors i would knock on the mall. sometimes i would have a testy conversation at the door but it was better than not having one at all. we have gerrymandering but we have micro-targeted that we only hear from the people we want to hear from and not the other side. we don't even know how to have conversations with the other side. my friend in cincinnati named greg landsman, he is a brand-new congressman. he has town halls all the time with democrats and republicans all across his district and i respect that.

he is doing what often does not happen you get an office only hear from one side. i think politicians should work hard to make sure they hear from all constituents. the positive feedback, criticism, concerns and i think we would all do better as long as it is civil. both people in congress and the rest of us as well. host: tom and woodbridge, virginia, republican line. caller: good morning guys. i want to get a few points in, the country is more divided because of the hyperbolic political rhetoric and the nature of social media algorithms and you spend money

to win primaries which speaks to the extremist end of the narrative. if you can win a primary whether or not you can deliver on that. we have to remind people we are not a democracy. we are a republic which means we are essentially 50 individual states the function along democratic principles and our direct representatives are our congressmen, governors and state and local officials and our school board. those people have the most impact on our lives.

because of the amount of money, 24 hour news cycle. the click bait hyperbolic political statements, everybody is driven to focusing on the president and we don't even hear what the senate says unless you listen to c-span. people need to recognize that the two parties, the american people, the parties are controlling the primaries. you are not picking your nominees. the party picks the nominee is secretly worked behind-the-scenes because that nominee is the one they have the most control over. the parties control the nominee and they don't care who wins.

they know both parties are essentially the same. host: i want david to respond but we also got a question from deb johnson who asked can you define the difference if you lieve there is one between democracy and a republic? we hear that a lot. can you address american democracy versus a republic? guest: i appreciate the caller's question. a smudges next year will be focused on trump versus biden. i think he is right about the heart of our democracy in our country is state houses, and that is where most of the decisions are happening.

i think he put it really well, a lot of people say we are not a democracy we are republic as if they are opposites. we are not a direct democracy and overall, that would not run well. although it is a good safety valve. we are republic, a democratic republic. people vote for representatives and they make the decisions. sometimes i worry that people have convinced people that we are not a democracy as if that justifies a gerrymandered legislature. we still vote for them and we are still would country where the majority of voters should

generally be reflected in how those who are elected vote for us. when the wheels come off our democratic republic is when a gerrymandered system means those who represent us, when they continue to do the opposite of what most people in ohio, missouri, florida want on every issue. at that point you are neither a democracy or republic. sometimes people believe that a republic means we are not a democracy and people don't matter as much. that is not true. the founders would tell you we have a representative system, we

are not grease. the whole point of the legislature is that it reflects the majority of opinion of people in that district which is why they have the election every two years and why they call it the people's house. and that is why i am concerned when you see these legislatures so gerrymandered that they stop reflecting majority well. -- will. we are also seeing corruption and extremism, lawlessness and many states where we see the systems. host: we will take one last quick call, matthew and knoxville, tennessee. caller: thank you for everything you are doing david. i think you are doing the real

work out here. with the tennessee three, it seems like these things are happening in parts of the country that are astonishing. for our state to get noticed and to get attention, the woman mentioned planned parenthood. the planned parenthood near my house was fire bombed by catholic fundamentalists. how do you get the attention of the national news media and point out what is happening in these places? host: we will have to be quick. guest: i really worry. when we only look at states as if they are red or purple we are overlooking how some of these states have fallen so far and

does not feel like a democracy anymore. i think we need to have national support democracy in all $.50. it wasn't right that some blacks in some states were gerrymandered. in many states, we have literally fallen to a place where there is little rules of law left in politics and where it's gotten so extreme and anti-democracy. we have to start both politically but also in a policy way. how do we sure of these states and give them the attention they need so they look like american democracy places versus what they are becoming. it's a real problem. we have to go beyond thinking about presidential politics to

get that done. that's why i write these books. i spoken to folks in tennessee, missouri and oklahoma and iowa who feel the same pain you do that they are not really living in democratic states right now. we have to go to bat and fight for some fundamental principles that we haven't been. host: i will have to leave it right there and this is the former chair of the ohio democratic party, david pepper. thanks again for