♪ host: it is the washington journal for february 20. americans said they pay too much for taxes. they felt they don't get too

much in return for what they pay. there will be a new tax bracket in place. people will receive lesson refunds. they will be local taxes the deal with. share with us how much you are paying in taxes. if you think you get value for what you pay. let us know this morning. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. if you want to text your thoughts on what you pay in taxes, (202) 748-8003. that's how you do that. on social media on facebook and on x. @cspanwj. this was the pole from the associated press asking questions about taxes. when it comes to the idea of tax fairness and they think the taxation system currently in place is fair.

when it comes to federal taxes, it comes to federal income tax, 39% overall said it is fair for what they pay in taxes. that shrinks down to 32% for republicans. 49% for democrats. when it comes to state income taxes, 44% say it is fair. 36% of republicans say that. democrats, 55%. state sales taxes, 46% say overall they think what they pay is fair. republicans, 42%. democrats, 52%. that is from the associated press when asked. if they were asked if the categories -- if the taxes were too high, for federal income taxes 67% of those said they felt federal income taxes were much high or too high. when it comes to local property

taxes, 69% of respondents saying it was too high. 59% of those democrats. republicans, 77%. state sales taxes. 62% saying it is overall much too high for what they pay. you can add your thoughts to the mix as well in this filing season. if you want to talk about what you pay and what you get in return, what you think you get in return for that. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. (202) 748-8002 for independents. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. the irs put out the marginal tax rate people will be expected to pay in this coming year. the top rate, 35% of tax rates for incomes over $42,000.

it jumps up to 87,000 plus -- $87,000 plus for married couples. 24% for incomes over $100,000, $525. $200,000 plus for married couples. it was a recent hearing in the house that featured the irs commissioner. amongst the things he talked about and was asked about, what the federal government collects in taxes and what is done with that money. here is a bit of that exchange. [video] >> i want to thank you for answering our questions today. i want to talk about something raised earlier about the deadbeat millionaires and billionaires who are cheating on their taxes and evading their

responsibility to pay their fair share. i don't think anybody is above paying taxes but people do it if they feel like the system is fair and everybody pays their fair share. what would happen if middle income and low income americans did not pay their taxes or cheated on their taxes at the same rate these millionaires at bill young years did? what with -- billionaires did? what would happen? >> the deficit would grow. you are right. paying your taxes is not your favorite activity of the year for sure. we find virtually the entire government through those tax collections -- fund virtually the entire government. if you want a functioning government, big or small, the irs needs to function effectively. there needs to be equity in the tax system. otherwise people will lose trust. trust is what the tax system is

built on. >> that means our defense, national defense, correct? >> it is everything the government does keeping our skies safe so your air traffic controllers, your food safe when you go to restaurants, and you have confidence your children are eating food that will not make them sick. that is all government funding and all made possible if we have a functioning tax system. host: there was a lot more to that hearing if you want to check it out on our website and app. we will show you portions of that during the course of our time together. cj starts us off in virginia on the democrats line. good morning. you are first up. caller: good morning, pedro. to the listeners. my take on taxes is, like, our country is just stuck on stupid. the federal government is in our

backyard too often. what they are complaining about is their local dmv or some kind of local issue. they put all their energy into hatred about the federal government. which is fine. there is no crime to be done. host: if that is the case when it comes to federal taxes where are you at? also, state and local taxes? you get something out of that? caller: i will give you some demographics. i'm a 62-year-old caucasian. i grew up walking into canada for my boyhood home. host: for time sake, where are you at? how would you describe yourself? caller: lucky.

lucky as all get out. host: joel in arkansas, republican line. caller: good morning, pedro. how are we doing? i'm going to say this. give me a couple of minutes. some pay more, some pay less. we have too many loopholes. the thing that bothers me -- i'm 82 years old and i have no kids in school. i'm still having to pay school tax. we just had a program last couple of days with $34 trillion in debt and it's getting worse. we are very blessed in this country. some don't pay. they have loopholes. they don't work. no, i think the taxes should be increased. this is going to upset everybody.

we have to get this $34 trillion down. if everybody just paid $100 more than their taxes towards the $34 trillion, not the other items -- i don't want to get into that. we are very blessed in this country. host: if people including yourself would chip in more you could take care of things like debt? as far as when you tell people that, how do they react to that? caller: i'm saying the money i chip in extra would not go for things i do not approve. i'm not going to get into that. it would go for just for the $34 trillion debt. host: ok. do you pay a lot in taxes? caller: no. i'm fortunate in the state of arkansas. we pay no taxes for the state of arkansas on our social security.

host: david in georgia, independent line. caller: how are you doing? yes. yes, pedro. i would like to point out something that came up. the irs has started going after the billionaires and the multinationals. they recouped $5 billion. host: ok. caller: they have recouped $5 billion already from the wealthiest. we are going to keep enlarging that revenue we are clawing back from the wealthy. you was pointing out attack scale about -- the tax scale. in the tax cut jobs act, they cut taxes by 50% on the wealthy multinational corporations from

24% to 12%. the wealthiest folks taxes, it was only five tens of 1%. -- 5/10ths of 1%. host: how are you when you have to pay your taxes? do you think it is fair? caller: i'm retired. i've been retired for a long time. hi set up my retirement so i don't have to pay taxes. my world is paid off. host: let's hear from tom in nashville, tennessee. independently. caller: finally talking about somebody who pays income tax. i wonder if you have a bracket. if you pay taxes, don't pay taxes, over $50,000 a year. i'm 75 years old. that guy talking from georgia said he's retired. you can't retire in this country until you have $5 million liquid.

i continue to pay work, pay taxes on this and that. i get 1099'd to death like everybody else. i know the government needs the money. this is a great deal in this country that we get everything so nicely done. state, local, federal, the whole ball of wax. the problem is i get upset about the money you paid into the social security system and then they re-tax it as you get older. you have to continue to work and pay taxes until you probably die. some people do real well and made some money and put it away. the rest of us, we are just wage slaves knocking it out every day. i'm glad you brought this up. i can't believe you are talking about it. so many people calling on the republican, democrats, and independent line. they never pay anything into the federal government. they are upset about

ukraine and the border. the federal government has a lot of stuff to do. we need the money for the american people. host: you say you get value from what you pay in taxes? what example would you given that? -- give on that? caller: security. we don't have to look over our shoulder all the time. we have a terrific police force in nashville, tennessee. we see these things about crime in new york and chicago. that does not happen in nashville. there are isolated cases but you get value. i wish y'all would have brackets and senate democrats and republicans. if you pay over $25,000 a year in income taxes or less than $25,000 a year. a lot of people have not paid income taxes in 40 years. host: good idea actually. fantastic idea. if you want to factor into what you pay and tell us what bracket you fall into, feel free to do

that. the lines currently are republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. independents, (202) 748-8002. dan in kentucky on the republican line. caller: thanks for taking my call. i am wondering how much money we are sending overseas in taxes to other countries. i think if we cut back on some of that we can get our deficit down. there is no accountability for all the money is going. it is like when they found saddam hussein, they found millions of dollars. that is my thing. host: how much do you shell out in taxes? caller: i'm retired. thank you. host: many are retired talking about their situation. you can add yours to the mix. a caller brought this up.

this is from the associated press. the irs poised to take in hundreds of billions of dollars in overdue and unpaid taxes. that's according to a new analysis released tuesday by the treasury department and the irs. tax revenues expected to rise by 560 $1 billion from 2024 to 2034 thanks to stepped-up enforcement made possible with money from the democrats inflation reduction act which became law in august of 2022. the congressional budget office estimated the tens of billions of new funding provided by the ira would increase revenues by $184 billion. the irs says the funding has restored, renewed, and diversified. d could reach as much as $851 billion from 2024 to 2034. that was one of the themes from the hearing featuring the irs commissioner. another thing that took place

with how the wealthy pay in taxes versus what other people pay in taxes. questioning from lloyd smucker to the commissioner. [video] >> you have multiple times talked about high income earners . p talked about millionaires and billionaires. you have talked about complex tax returns. in the same sentence as tax avoidance and tax evasion. do you believe that million years at billionaires are all tax cheats? >> i do not. >> do you believe there is a reason for complex returns other than to avoid taxes? >> absolutely there is. >> what are some of those reasons? >> here's my understanding. cfos of major companies have a responsibility to their board and their shareholders to find the most tax advantaged status. and they should.

>> it's not a problem for you if they took a legitimate tax deduction? >> never. if the return is accurate and complete and legitimate, great. but that is not the concern we have. that is not the issue. the issue was because the irs was not auditing -- the audit rates were anemic because we were not investing in keeping pace and these efforts in certain cases lead to aggressive avoidance and evasion. i can give you examples of where it is more prolific. that is where we want to focus. >> it is troubling to me when you keep using those terms in the same sentence as if all high income earners -- who by the way, are paying most of the taxes -- are all looking to avoid taxes. that is not my experience with business owners and corporate leaders. they want to do what is right. it concerns me going into an

audit -- everyone is innocent until proven guilty. if your organization is taking the approach that you are taking today, you are feeling people are guilty before the audit is even done. >> that was not my intention. i want to increase scrutiny on complex returns where there is high risk of evasion. host: more from that hearing from last week. if you want to see the irs commissioner and talk about your own personal experience paying taxes, (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. independents, (202) 748-8002. this is stephanie hilton from facebook. which tax? fica taxes, state income, state sales tax, gas taxes. we have legal weed it m state.

i pay like i always this is fromf inearborn, michigan. he texted us. warren buffett pays less than his secretary. prident trump paid $750 i numerous years. the wealthy pay far too little. it should be taxed at pre-reagan rates. ken from facebook says, percentagewise a lot more than billionaires. that is how he characterizes the discussion. you can add that to the mix if you wish. bobby in south carolina, independent line. caller: good morning. yeah. i own of -- i am several businesses. we hire accountants so we don't flush our money down the federal and state tax rathole. that is what people do.

i love people calling up about social security. they want the kids to pay more in taxes to support them more. social security is a big ponzi scheme. all these government programs are going bust. the foundation of them don't work. social security right now used to buy treasuries and bonds. they are now selling bonds because they don't take in enough revenue to pay for the boomers. host: you made the comment about your businesses. can you elaborate on that? host: i pay a fortune and accountants -- in accounts to get every deduction i can't. everybody tries to get a deduction. i don't know anybody that sends their tax money in and don't try to get deductions. that is completely ridiculous.

we pay a fortune for the pleasure of filing taxes. they are taking in way too much money. they have a spending problem at the state level, at the federal level. nothing against the guy from tennessee. tennessee has tons of crime. every state has its own levels of crime as well. his idea that the state will protect you, that the government is going to get you and take care of you is complete nonsense. host: robert in charlotte, north carolina. independent line. caller: i pay my share of taxes and i'm on social security. i don't mind paying taxes. i did it for years. that is how we were able to get on social security. we looked after each other and that is what social security does. the people who say it is a ponzi scheme, that's not true.

even on social security we pay taxes every year. host: when you say you don't mind paying taxes now, what about before you are on social security? caller: i served in the military for 12 years. the taxpayers pay for me to get my training. i have no problem whatsoever paying taxes. somebody has to pay for those -- the military hardware we used to keep the world safe. it cost money to build expensive aircraft carriers in every thing else. somebody has to pay for it. taxes is the way to do it. i have no problem with that. what i have problems with is the corporate america does not pay its fair share. that is where the problem is. host: when you say they don't pay their fair share, what do you mean by that? what is your idea fair share? caller: meaning much of the world's policing of the oceans to keep them open is for the

corporate world. if they are paying a huge amount of taxes or they pay most of the taxes, they should. they should pay more. when they get all the tax inductions and fees that they can get around and pay accountants so they don't have to pay taxes they are able to get around paying their fair share of taxes. the everyday people don't have that luxury. host: robert in north carolina giving us his thoughts. one of the questions asked about taxes is under the category of many people believe the tax burden is highest for those who are identified as middle income earners. when it comes to 22% -- to the tax burden, local property taxes, 22% believe higher income tax people, 40% say middle income people bear the burden of that. federal income taxes, 18% say higher income people bear the

burden of those taxes. 58% for those in the middle class. 16% in the lower income classes. state sales taxes, 12% say when it comes to those who earn a lot of money they bear the burden of that. 45% say middle income people bear the burden of that. more from that associated press poll if you want to look at it. a lot of various questions on taxation. we ask what you pay in taxes. if you get value from that. we heard from some callers previous. caller: good morning. thank you. good morning to you and america. taxes. i don't have a problem. i have been around the world. some of the things we benefit from in america, the majority people have no idea of our issues in other countries.

it is phenomenal. i'm lad and happy to pay my taxes and pay my fair share of taxes. i'm glad. i think i do get a fair return on what it is i pay in taxes. i know you're going to ask. i thought i with or without their. i pay almost $30,000 in taxes this year alone. i'm in over the road truck driver. i'm in california right now. i get up and go to work every day and i pay my fair share and i will continue to keep paying. i am very hurt that people that have multimillions of dollars in businesses -- on the tax issue, the issue has come up with the republican party in the house that they want to give more tax

breaks and continue to keep giving tax breaks every time we get a republican in office. that hurts me. i feel bad about that. a shout out to all my congressman. if i had my way, i would vote you all out and get a congress that's going to work and go to work for the american people. host: sharing history and experiences. charles is in new york, you are in. caller: i live in new york which is one of the heaviest taxed states in america, if not the heaviest. i don't mind the amount of taxes i pay. i make just under $50,000 a year. we have excellent roads, excellent pleas, excellent fire coverage. a good thing to do would be to eliminate a lot of the waste in the tax dollars spending. i work in the education field.

i see incredible amounts of waste on the state level. i think that the irs needs more agents to go after these high income people that avoid paying taxes, such as our last president. when i looked at his tax returns they were able to release from him, a few years i paid more taxes than he did even though he supposedly very rich. host: the $50,000 a year, how much approximate do you pay in taxes? caller: about 15% in income tax. that is not to mention the gas tax in new york is high. we get a lot of good services. new york is a wonderful place to live. host: charles talking about his experiences as a teacher. fred lives in the neighboring state of new jersey. independent line. caller: hello. thank you for taking my call.

i live in new jersey, where our property taxes are among the highest in the country. there were school taxes. i'm an 80-year-old retiree. i don't get any benefit from that. also, i have to pay quite a bit in income tax. until recently i worked part-time preparing taxes. people my age, retired people, they think people over a certain age should not have to pay taxes at all. i think warren buffett should pay taxes. the average person on social security and a modest pension who is over 65 should not have to pay taxes. barack obama ran for president the first time in 2008, he

promised people 65 and older with income the more than $50,000 would not have to pay income tax anymore. as soon as he took office he forgot all about that promise. host: when you are a tax preparer and told people they had to pay taxes that year and the amount, what was the typical reaction? caller: well, most people got refunds. they were satisfied. people over certain age who are retired and getting a small pension did not think they should have to pay taxes on their pension. i tended to agree. people with a modest pension should not be taxed on that, but they are. host: fred in new jersey. the tax foundation based in washington, d.c. looks at states and what they do when it comes to corporate taxes and the

changes made for 2024. looking at arkansas, the corporate tax rate was 4.8%. that's a drop of about half a percent. the new corporate tax rate in iowa, a little over 7%. the change it has for 2023. this is corporate taxes at the state level. kansas, 6.5%. for corporations, for nebraska, the new rate for 2024 is 5.8% plus. new jersey, 9%. that is the new rate for corporations in 2024 in new jersey. you can add yours to the mix as well, especially if you run a business like some callers have this morning. share your experience on the personal level. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats.

independents, (202) 748-8002. frank in new york, republican line. hello. caller: two points. a lot of executives use the expense reports as their own -- one president will take three or four vice presidents to lunch with them. they claim it as a business lunch and he buys everybody lunch. it's a deduction. the next day the vice president takes them to lunch, says it is a business lunch, and they have another lunch on the taxpayers. they keep rotating. expense reports should not be allowed . they abuse it terribly. they go on trips to bermuda and the bahamas and they put it on expense reports. they claim they are doing it for

business conferences. the amount of work -- stuff they talk about has nothing to do with business. host: frank, what about your experience? do you pay taxes at all? caller: yes. let me tell you about that. what we should do is exempt the first $30,000 of income for everyone. poor, rich, and in between. exempt the first $30,000 to live on. anything above that tax at 15% minimum and you got it made. host: that rate would be able to fund all the federal government if you did it that way? caller: i did not hear that. host: do you think if they changed taxation like you would want to see it, could that pay for everything the federal government has to pay for? caller: i think if they made

those changes i just told you they would probably raise tons of money more than they are raising now. it would be fair. you get these guys to go around with cars cutting grass. they have to use their own trucks. the have to use their own gasoline. the machinery. they have to pay for their workers. they have to pay tax. they are lucky if they survive the tax. host: ok. let's hear from jim and west virginia, democrats line. -- in west virginia. caller: interesting discussion. i think people developed a bit of a worked relative you -- warped relative view of things. the guy that called in earlier give a good example that the united states has to pay a lot to keep shipping lanes open. we have to have a big defense budget.

america's defense spending is maybe over half of our discretionary spending. republicans are screaming all the time about wasteful spending. look how much and f 35 fighter costs, how much the navy costs. it is surehanded to have. america can't operate on a shoestring budget. if you look at taxes -- literally look at taxes from the 1950's, 1960's, etc., taxes have gone down for corporations. host: let's talk about you personally. what you pay and do you think you get value from it? caller: i'm retired now. i paid taxes all my life. i think america has a progressive tax scale system. the more you make, you step up into higher withholding rates. that is probably like the guy was saying about from those who

have a lot, much is expected. host: being retired, no taxes for you on average? caller: on the average. the income i have coming in from social security is not such that it would require it. i paid taxes all my life. it is something we all face up to and recognize responsibly. i'm saying this. if republicans are constantly screaming to cut taxes, cut taxes for the rich, if you have somebody that makes $300,000 a year and at the other end of the street the guy makes $30,000 year, people say we should have a flat tax. host: ok. that is jim having his thoughts. you can add yours to the mix. it was at that hearing, one of the questions asked by mike thompson california to the irs

commissioner was a call for republicans to cut the irs budget, what that could mean for the collection of taxes. here's a bit of that exchange from last week. [video] >> the majority seems to think the irs budget is a slush fund to pay for every program that they want to pass and put in the law. i have lost track of how many times they have tried to use the irs budget to offset spending despite reams of evidence proving irs can't actually increase the deficit. i believe the only reason to work to cut the irs budget is to either make consumer services worse or to make cheating on your taxes easier. i understand people don't like paying taxes. this is how we fund are civilized society and the many

programs are constituents care about -- our constituents care about. while we can disagree about tax policy on the specifics we ought to all agree on a bipartisan basis that people should follow the law and pay the taxes that they owe. commissioner, when irs funding is cut what happens to our deficit? >> it goes up. in fact, for every $100 million taken from the irs the deficit grows by $600 million over 10 years. that is because -- >> $600 million? >> for every $100 million cut. >> when the irs funding is cut, is it harder or easier for people to cheat on their taxes? >> it is easier. if i can go through $100 million

and what that buys you with the irs, 700 audits of high income taxpayers, millionaires and billionaires. 200 audits of complex partnerships. 100 audits of large corporations. 32,000 collection cases of wealthy individuals and on and on. that is just from the $100 million so clearly it has an impact. host: c-span.org if you want to see that hearing from last week from the irs commissioner on the topics discussed. you can go to the website and view it for yourself. some of you responding on social media. property income taxes are crushing the middle class and they are the last to get any kind of break. we just learn to deal with it. this is fromizn illinois. i pay atea 7% sales tax. coorions should be taxed more and the american people

should be getting more assistan fm our government. i'm tired of the u.s. prioritizing corporations over its people. a viewer, clark off of x. i enjoy the services i get from paying taxes. insuranceomnies -- no one should worry about paying a bill and put off seeing a doctor. you can make your comments on x at @cspanwj. facebook.com/cspan. david from dallas. independent line. hello. caller: hi, pedro. let me tell you that my classification is single. i'm 68 years old, still working. in federal taxes last year i paid $11,000. in property taxes i paid

$12,000. i don't think i get a very good value for my money. my two biggest tax expenses are taxes. last year my income was $102,000. like i said, as far as paying taxes going forward i'm probably going to pay more this year because i made more on my investment. with the trump tax cut my taxes actually went up because more and more deductions and exclusions were eliminated or tapped. host: can i ask about property taxes? when you get those assessments

from your locality as far as how much your property is worth, what goes through your mind and how does that relate ultimately to how much you will pay in taxes for your property? caller: well, it is typically -- i think properties in dallas are so overvalued. if you go and argue, you will lose. if you want to contest your property taxes. i live in a home that is paid off. it was built in 1979-1980. when i bought it, i bought it for $80,000. in the first year i owned it i hit the inflation gravy train. it was valued and when you're at $150,000. now it is currently valued at $420,000 a year. host: that is david in dallas,

texas, with a perspective. another texan, gerald from richardson, texas. caller: good morning. i looked down the street -- am i on? i looked down the street. i have not seen a new car on my street in a longtime. we did buy one but the property taxes went up and up. this year we have an advantage here in texas. property taxes were lowered from the year before. my wife and i pay between $20,000 and $25,000 a year in taxes. i think it is closer to $20,000. i was listening to the guy -- host: daniel werful. caller: his message to me and

every american -- i have a good cpa. she helps a lot. pay attention to the tax codes. you can save a buck or two here and there. it really has kept me out of -- kept me in good graces with doing my taxes. i am doing them now. i am looking for a way to if i can write off helping my 95-year-old mama, because her cash flow is deficient. we are looking for tax codes. can i get credit for helping her? host: your cpa, you talk to them a lot during this time of year. caller: it's a great help. it is money wisely spent, yeah. host: where is richardson, texas? caller: north of dallas. it is on the line.

i'm grateful to be paying taxes. it's got good streets. we have good government. pretty decent. i never complained about how much i pay. i'm glad to take a discount when i can. host: that is gerald in richardson, texas, giving us another perspective. let's hear from colorado. george on the independent line. george in colorado, hello? caller: i'm calling from my ranch. i'm looking at my horses now as they are coming out. i have to go out and feed the chickens. i'm 62 years old. served in the military as a u.s. army ranger from 1979 to 1983. i voted for ronald reagan. i think the problem we have today is we have two old

gentlemen. i looked in the valley that i live in, the san luis valley. all i see is trump flags everywhere. it's almost like their messiah. host: let's stick to taxes. you talked about your ranch. what do you pay as far as taxes are concerned? caller: i only pay $690 a year. 160 acres. i'm just a blue-collar worker. a retired firefighter. i left for colorado about three years ago. i cut my taxes by about 90%. i also cut my taxes on the land and house. i paid more in denver for a condo. $1800. that was 800 square feet. i tell you what.

i think our system is a completely broken system. we have gangs that run this nation. one side is the democrats, the other is the republicans. i think this country is in big trouble. i think cities are falling. taxes are going up. people can't afford anything anymore. i think we need to get back into humbling ourselves. host: ok. george in colorado giving us his thoughts from that state. foxbusiness talked about the expected tax refunds seen this year and what that means for you if you are expecting a refund. so far this year they are noticeably smaller than they were last year, according to early data published by the internal revenue service. the average refund check this yea is worth 1300 -- $1395

as of february 2. that is based on nearly 2.6 million tax refunds collectively worth about $3.65 billion. the story as the irs cautions taxpayers the average refund amount will change as more returns are processed. americans who expect to receive the earned income tax credit, a tax break for low to moderate income tax workers will not receive the refund before this february, which could be distorting the picture as far as refunds are concerned. john is next in virginia, democrats line. caller: good morning. here in fairfax county, we pay a lot in property taxes. we have very good schools. most of the property tax money goes towards the schools. a lot of it. last week -- i think it was last

week they had the cbo in congress and asking about various things. one of the things that struck me is if they do away with the trump tax cuts over 10 years we would collect $3.5 billion -- $3.5 trillion more in revenue. i think going back, if you study the trump tax cuts, you can said ee they went to the biggest earners and the corporations. going forward, if they get rid of those then we should have more money to work with as far as the government goes to keep the government open and the navy on the oceans and everything we do with the money. host: how much of a pinch

doesn't put on household finances when you factor in taxes? caller: my wife and i are retired. it puts a big pinch on it because you don't get deductions now that you get -- that you otherwise would get. the sales tax and the cost of living in fairfax county is very high. if you are working it's a much easier place to live. host: ok. john there. just a little distance from washington, d.c., in fairfax county, virginia. the washington post. their lead editorial folks at a tax credit. if you want to check it out for yourself, this is from the editor's cut. case in point, the employee retention tax credit, a pandemic era policy enacted to save jobs has been co-opted by bad actors and morphed into a scam that is

costing taxpayers more than quadruple what congress anticipated, adding the internal revenue service warned the program is riddled with corruption. the editorial says the initial purpose of the program was sound enough in congress created it at the height of the economic uncertainty and 2020 to compensate businesses for keeping workers on their payrolls as long as they could, even if the pandemic heard the revenue. it was designed and covered half their wages from march 13 of 2020 through december 21 of that year. people quickly figured out how to game the system. you claimed -- new claims flooded in last year and the treasury hemorrhaged cash. that is the lead washington post editorial on the tax credit during the covid era. robin in schenectady, new york. independent line. caller: good morning. i might be your youngest caller today. host: [laughter] caller: we have a bunch of

retirees calling in about school taxes. host: and you pay no taxes either, right? caller: [laughter] i wish. i will probably see less than i did last year. i believe the trump tax credit ended last year, or is this year? host: i have to check that out. i don't want to speak out of uncertainty. caller: fair enough. i will see a drop in my returns. probably in the lower middle tax bracket. i like to say to my rancher buddy in colorado, i feel you. i see corruption from top to bottom. host: how much of a pinch as far as taxes are concerned? how much affect your financial picture there? caller: it does take a good chunk out of my paycheck.

it's enough. you do feel it. my taxes have gone up. my returns have been going down. there's a little bit of a cash flow issue. i'm hearing all these people complain about the school taxes. that is what gets me the most. i don't have kids and i pay school taxes and i don't see a problem with it. i'm concerned the kids are stupid. there's not enough money to benefit them. that is what grinds my gears. host: robin in new york. she asked about the trump era taxes put in place under his administration. 12025 draws to a close so will many of the sweeping gop tax breaks established by the tax cuts and jobs active 2017. while the legislation made some tax cuts to corporate profits permanent, lowered individual rates and tax rates will expire

on december 31, 2025. they will revert to pre -- levels. changes to the tax code are coming. whether cuts can be kept by republicans or rates rewritten by democrats or divided government will agree on some sort of bipartisan compromise, taxpayers of every persuasion will be affected. that is yahoo! finance reporting. laura from raymond bill, texas. caller: it is aurora. it is way down in the valley, 40 miles from the border. i pay about $1500 in taxes. i get double deductions from my withholdings. want to get my refund i get enough to pay my property taxes. i use it like a savings account. i'm 70 years old. i walk about three or four hours a day.

i'm out doing 18-year-olds any day. host: what are property taxes like in texas? caller: very low. host: when they reassess it, it is pretty fair as far as you are concerned when they reassess the value of your home? caller: it's pretty fair. what is hurting us as people coming from california who will sell the house for $1 million and buy it for $150,000 that was worth $50,000 a week ago. that is what hurt us and they tried to raise the taxes on us. i think they should change the law and tact the people that pay $150,000 for the home. we did not do anything about selling property. host: this is john from mansfield, ohio. caller: good morning. i wanted to say i'm 70 years old, retired. i do a little side work for gardening and trimming for people. my wife overtired this year.

w -- will retire this year. she has been paying through her full-time employment up to this date. we are in together less than $34,000 a year. we can survive on that. we only have a home mortgage. everything else we are debt-free. we are able to live a decent life. the tax issue is never going to go away. it may go up or go down depending on who was in office and what happens in a temporary fashion. i think the public needs to be more concerned about the lawmakers you are voting into office. here in ohio, for one example, we had a medical marijuana law passed. it was a 10% tax. a little extra tax put in over our regular 7% sales tax. they wanted to make sure more

money went to the police and schools and stuff. i can understand that. once he got to the legislature, they want to raise it to 15%. these are people that are not high income people that will be on medical marijuana or marijuana recreational. they voted it from 10% to 15%. you need to look at the lawmakers in your state and find out what they are doing. we don't tax alcohol at 15%. alcohol provides much more damage to lives and insurance companies pay money and it costs taxpayers. people need to be more alert and aware of their lawmakers they are voting into office. we need to hold them accountable for not raising taxes, especially for things they don't agree with. it almost seems like it is a way to get back at you kind of thing. that is my take on it. host: thank you.

rick on our independent line. caller: i wanted to make a brief comment. it has been said in the annals of history the problem with democracy, since people vote themselves a treasury. that has been true in our society for sure. in my personal case i have got $2000 a month coming in on social security. i'm 70. that is my only source of income. i have not had to pay any federal taxes because of that. on my local taxes, my house is paid for and i have a disability exemption on my homestead. i only pay $630 a year on that. i would not mind paying a little bit more to help our government. i don't feel it is unfair. host: robert also in taxes, republican line --texas,

republican line. caller: how are you? i love the conversation and i like book tv provided by c-span. it is because on washington journal you don't get a chance to discuss the in-depth issues like book tv does. there are two ways to calculate taxes. the percent of taxable income and the percent of total income. they are both relative to the investor for the individual. for the people calling in and sank it out mind paying their taxes, i don't understand it but that is me. how much i pay is directly related to political ventures, for example, mr. biden has never asked if he prefers the clinton tax system or the obama tax system.

it is relevant to individuals watching this program. president obama gave the biggest tax cut in the history of political ventures to people in america. what he did was he converted -- he allowed people to convert roth iras into thousand nine -- in 2009 to tax-for entities. people who make large sums of money don't pay medicare taxes. the surcharges. they don't have to pay social security taxes at 85% versus 50%. host: what do you pay under the current system? caller: it depends which calculation you use. if you use the percent of taxable income, it's around 10%. if you pay total income,. it's different

-- income, it's different. host: leland in new york on the independent line. caller: hi. i'm still working. i am 68. i started collecting social security. i live in a village with a just find out there is millions and damage to the sewer. they just charged me $450 more on my taxes. i just found out a couple of weeks ago. host: is that out a couple weeks ago. host: where is that figure coming from? caller: it is village tax. it was added on. i pay already $700 in town taxes for sewer. i'm paying $1100 more because i have one rental. i always pay my fair share.

anyone else is making really good money they try to cheat the system and they only put down their rental income. and then with the pandemic thing, i know quite a few businesses that did not needed and that is why we have billions of dollars in fraud. they did not need that income and they took it. host: leland finishing off this hour of your calls on how much you pay in taxes. up next, two guests joining us for conversations. will be joined by david of the cato institute. he will discuss a new report taking a look at illegal immigration, particular how many people are getting green cards when they come to the united states. later on we will continue our black history month series with robert woodson, the author of "red, white, and black: giving

american history from race hustlers." both of those conversations, coming up. >> c-span has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress from the house and senate floors to congressional hearings and party meetings. c-span gives you a front row seat to how issues are debated and decided with no commentary, no interruptions, and completely unfiltered. c-span. your unfiltered view of government. >> if you ever miss any of c-span's coverage you can find

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a weekly roundup of c-span's campaign coverage providing a one stop stop for candidates across the country. this along with first-hand accounts from political reporters, poll numbers come in campaign ads. watching c-span's 2024 campaign trail friday night at 7:00 on c-span, online at c-span.org, or download as a podcast at c-span now or wherever you get your podcasts. c-span. your unfiltered view of politics. >> "washington journal" continues. host: this is david bier with the cato institute who serves as their immigration studies. thanks for joining us. remind the viewers about the cato institute and the perspective it takes at the perspective you take when it

comes to immigration related matters. guest: the cato institute was founded four decades ago. we work on all manner of public policy research. we are nonpartisan. our principles are free markets, liberty -- limited government, individual liberty and peace, and we believe our research demonstrates the benefits of those policies. host: you take a look at the topic of green cards. before we go into the depths of the report, remind people what a green card is. guest: a green card is a document that demonstrates legal permanent residence in the united states. it is the prerequisite for someone to naturalize after they get the green card. it is the only pastor permanent residence in the united states is through trying to get a green card through our green card system. host: sorry to be academic, but

what is involved in getting one? guest: there are a lot of different processes. there is not the single way to obtain a green card. we have green cards made available based on employment, based on family, based on a lottery system, as well as through refugee or asylum processes. those are the main paths in which people are trying to get green cards. what we took a look at is over the last -- since the 19th century, what percent of people who are trying to get a green card actually succeeded in that year? in the late 19th century, over 99% of the people trying to obtain a green card or permanent residence in the united states succeeded in their quest to do that. that percentage since the 1920's has fallen all the way down to 3% this last year.

3% of people trying to get a green card through our processes today, only 3% will succeed in 2024. host: what changed? guest: the biggest change occurred with the immigration act of 1924, which permanently set low caps on the number of legal immigrants to the united states. every year since 1924, a majority of the people seeking to obtain permanent residence in this country did not succeed. that policy over the course of a century has built up a huge amount of requests which are pending. people seeking to obtain the rights to have a path to citizenship in this country but cannot succeed because of these caps and limited opportunities to apply. host: who determines the caps? guest: congress sets the caps.

the last time they were updated is 1990. the immigration act of 1990 is the current iteration of those caps and the diversity lottery program. host: if it is 3% right now is that because of the backlog? is that because more people are being turned away? where does that percentage fall when it comes to that number? guest: it is because we are having increased demand over time and we also have this backlog that has built up. the caps are set. they have been the same since 1990. you have a fixed supply of green cards going out and a increased number of people who want to immigrate. host: if a person applies for a green card what are the things that are looked at in consideration if one is successful or not? guest: the most important

consideration is if you follow the categories of eligibility. right now you have to have a family sponsor who is a u.s. citizen or permanent resident relative who can sponsor you. if you do not have that come into been if you do have that there is a cap for people who are adult children of u.s. citizens, adult children of legal permanent residents, spouses and minor children of legal permanent residents, siblings of u.s. citizens. those people are the ones who often hear about waiting in line for two decades. we are currently issuing green cards to siblings from mexico who applied around 9/11. that shows the scale of the weight and the backlog for those categories. then you have employment-based, mainly employer-sponsored immigrants. almost 2 billion of those waiting, mate -- almost 2 million of those waiting, mainly

from india. a quirk of our system is every country has a limit. no country can obtain more than 7% of the green cards in any year. that means if you are 50% of the applicants like is the case from india, they end up waiting and becoming about 90% of the backlog. then you have refugees, basically government selected process there, and the diversity lottery, where you have 20 million applicants from countries that do not usually send many immigrants to the i did states under the family and employment-based system -- to the united states under the family and employment-based system. host: (202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8000 for democrats. independents, (202) 748-8002. for those who may be immigrants

and want to tell us your story, (202) 748-8003. you can also text us at that number. what are red flags to be rejected for a green card? guest: the most important criteria is whether you fit into those eligibility buckets i talked about. family, employment, the lottery, and ultimately refugees. for each one of those it will be different. for refugees you have to demonstrate persecution based on protected ground in your home country. for diversity lottery the main thing will be whether or not the government thinks he will be able to support yourself when you get here. a public charge type analysis. are you going to have enough income or have a sponsor in the u.s. who can keep you at an income above the poverty line. for family sponsors, we have a public charge framework were a

sponsor needs to maintain an income of 125% of the poverty line. that will be an important consideration. for employer-sponsored -- the number of requirements are incredibly lengthy. it includes everything from whether a u.s. worker will be able to do the job that is being offered to a very in the weeds things related to whether or not your job requires a college degree or not. these are the types of things our bureaucracy will be looking at. host: a 3% figure now. you talked about a 99% figure in history. what is a good figure that should be in place right now? guest: it will be somewhere between those numbers. you want to have screens for people who are criminals, who are security threats.

those are the main criteria i would want to be taking a look at. you look at the percentage of people turned away on those grounds, it is greater than 1% but it is not 97%. if people are coming to contribute to this country my view is that as an economic positive for the country and we should have a way to enable people stop they are mainly not being turned away because they are ineligible. that is not why they are being turned away. they are being turned away because of these caps that are arbitrarily set. congress has a negotiation and they come up with a number. that is not a good way to set economic policy for the country. host: what case would you make for the increase of that number and issuing more green cards? guest: the most important thing is u.s. population growth has never been lower in our history. it is now 90% from its high,

barely increasing because of immigration at this point. we need workers to support the retirees who will make up a much greater percentage of our population going forward. countries that have a declining labor force, especially when you have such a large number of retirees, experience extreme conditions when it comes to their social security and pension system. you need workers to pay into those systems to support the retirees going forward, as well as if you look at economic growth. where will the economic growth come from if you have a declining number of workers contributing? immigration is important for the fiscal health of the country but also for the economic growth of the country as well. host: david bier of the cato

institute joining us for this report. you can find out more at the cato report website. michael, you're on with david from the cato institute. good morning. caller: my question about immigration is based on race. i feel that until 1925 come if you are not from western europe you are not getting into this country. that has been the policy ever since immigration laws have passed. you control the number of minorities coming in the country. i would like to hear his thoughts. guest: race and immigration have been intertwined for many years. you look at the earliest immigration laws in the united states targeting chinese immigrants, the chinese exclusion act. that act became the blueprint

for later immigration laws banning almost all of asia from being able to immigrate under any framework in 1917. then the immigration act of 1924 was mentioned. that targeted eastern european countries, setting low quotas for those countries as well as all of africa having low quotas relative to western europe. that was partially changed in 1965 when we equalized the quotas. the 7% figure. no country can receive more than 7%. because europe is divided in many small countries, they have a disproportionate number relative to their population compared to india or china or many of the other large countries around the world. host: areas from kentucky and joins us on our line for republicans. caller: as i see the border from

our point of view, we have 2 million people that have crossed the border. they are not vetted, they do not know who they are. they could possibly do a lot of harm with terror cells in the billions of dollars being spent. if there was a legal process, there is nothing wrong with it. the way it is being done, it will be the downfall of our nation. there is no way a nation indebted like we are can sustain 10 million people on welfare. in these drug cartels are rampant. charging up to $10,000 to smuggle someone up to the border and turn them loose. i do see that our laws are gone. there is no way it can sustain what is going on at the southern border. host: thank you. guest: excellent point. i often hear it said we want

these people to come legally. i say what does the process look like? we heard some things. we do not want criminals, we do not want terrorists, we do not want people who live off welfare. those are reasonable criteria. the way policymakers in washington have looked at it as they say we do not like those things and are only responsible be to try to crackdown at the border. because of the economic incentives, the benefit of coming to the united states is so enormous that people are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to be smuggled in illegally into this country. that is not going to work. further crackdowns on the border will not solve the situation. having a legal process that frees up border patrol to go after the people we do not want to let into the country, the real threats, should be the focus of public policy. if we adopt the system and get

rid of the criminals, the security threats, the people who will just live off of welfare, that is freeing up 90% of border patrol's current task, which is dealing with people coming for peaceful purposes to contributed economically to this country. host: former president trump made comments to the current immigration system under the biden administration and talks about what happens to immigrants coming to the united states and what that can do for american jobs. i want to play you a little bit of what he had to say. [video clip] >> the stampede of illegal aliens will search into the tens of millions. we are already there. i believe you will have 19 million people have come into our country illegally by the end of his term. that is bigger than new york state. the people that will benefit the least, the biggest losers in

this invasion will be african-americans, hispanic americans, asian americans, and all unions. unions will be out of business. i met with the teamsters the other day, i had a good meeting with the teamsters and i said you better get me because we will close up our borders. we had the safest borders in the history of our country and now we have the worst. hourly wages will be cut in half if biden's policies are allowed to continue. who once open borders? no one thought they were real when they say open borders. they come in from prisons all over the world. from mental institutions all over the world. terrorists. what we are taking into our country by the millions. we will end on day one. host: those are the comments of the former president. what is your reaction?

guest: you heard about invasion, you heard about terrorists and criminals. there are a lot of concerns people have with immigration. i do not think economics ranks very highly. the polling we have done it looks at what is moving people. it is the social concerns. the things you heard about with terrorism and social disorder and crime. those are the things people are concerned about. we have done research looking at the rate at which immigrants are being incarcerated versus native born americans. immigrants are about half as likely as nativeborn americans to be incarcerated in the united states for a crime. that is suggestive evidence they are less likely to be involved in crime in the first place. you look at the economic concerns people have about job displacement. we have 9 million open jobs in this country. this is an unprecedented period

of high labor demand for workers. you compare that to the pre-pandemic highs of 7 million. 2 million more than that. the average before that was only about 4 million or 5 million open jobs per month. we have basically doubled what we had previously in terms of labor demand. the idea that we need to have a whole border patrol bureaucracy just to make sure people are not filling open jobs and creating more goods and services. talk about inflation, one reason for inflation is we are not producing enough stuff. more production means lower prices and a better standard of living for americans. host: the cato institute's david bier joining us for this conversation.

michael from maryland. independent line. caller: i think the current immigration system, especially with the green card process does not support legal migration. the process is too expensive. there are so many strings. i myself applied for work authorization and it has taken forever. ask who would want to go through all of this legal process forever, it is expensive. the current legal migration using the green card does not support people. i will touch on one more thing. you mentioned the lottery. www.c-span.org --

[indiscernible] i've been in the united states legally. you have a bunch of people in the united states who are thinking to migrate to a green card the lottery ignores them. we are not supported. host: thank you very much. guest: if you look at our immigration laws, they are not designed for most people to follow them, they are designed to exclude most people. that is the purpose of the immigration act of 1924 as it has been revised over the years. the primary purpose is to allow a small number of exceptions to the universal ban on legal immigration. it is not surprising you end up with a situation where lots of people do not even look into the legal immigration paths that

exist because they know from experience that their families, the people they know who immigrated have come to the border. that is the way they know about. unfortunately that is the way that works better than the legal immigration system. it is more of a sure thing to show up at the border and say i am here, are you going to deport me then to submit an application from a lottery where .2% of the applicants win the lottery each year. host: here is ed in new jersey, democrats line. caller: i agree with the guest. the legal immigration system is a joke because it does not really work. the best way to come to the united states is basically illegally. which is sad. we want highly qualified people,

the areas falling behind. we want people who want to come work. there is lot of highly qualified people. exceptional scientists who want to do work. because of the immigration system they often do not bother going through the process. that is all i had to say. host: ed in new jersey. guest: absolutely. we have put out an online platform where you can try to get a green card, go through the process. it is called thoughtgreencardgame.com. you can see how challenging it is. is an absolute labyrinth of complicated bureaucratic restrictions. at the end of the day, even if you meet all of those requirements you still run into the caps and the limits on the number of green cards that can be issued. even if you are qualified, even

if you do have all of these talents you want to contribute to the country, you will still be excluded because of these low immigration limits. host: if you want to try out that game, it is there on your screen. "usa today" reports on what it calls the cost of legal immigration. it says the nationalization immigration forum costs six under $40 an hour, following a paper application $725. on april 1 the cost of both of those will go up to $760. how does cost factor into someone looking for a green card? guest: is a small piece of the puzzle. you are talking about naturalization. that is the final step after you get a green card. the green card fees are going up much more than the naturalization fees. the government has made the increase in the fees less than what they say is the cost of

adjudicating one of these applications. it is not about the cost. people are willing to borrow against their future earnings in the united states in order to cover the cost of the process. the economic benefits are so great they would be willing to pay thousands of dollars. you look at people coming to the border. most of those people are paying 5000 or $10,000 to immigrate just to the border to have a chance. maybe they will not deport me when i cross. for the legal immigration system, the's's -- the costs of filing the application are the least of the problems, it is getting to the point where you have the opportunity to file, which is the most important restriction on legal immigration. host: do people go about this on their own or do they have legal help? guest: it depends on the category. most people have legal help even for categories that are seen as easy.

spousal immigration. most of the people i know have hired an attorney. if you look at the -- if you look over time, why is it costing the government so much to process these forms? it is because they keep adding longer and longer forms. over the last two decades, since 2003, we have doubled the length of immigration forms. that is one reason they are spending so much money on adjudicating these applications. host: here is cindy in michigan. republican line. caller: is anybody concerned about the military age men coming across from china? doesn't that bother anybody? i have seen it on the news. it is scary that they let people from china just leave their country and go anywhere? guest: one of these concerns

about security. i would want to have a legal immigration process where we are vetting people before they show up at the border. i think that is common sense. we have not had any terrorist attack carried out by someone coming from china. i am not personally fretting every day about people coming from china. when we hear military age males i laugh because that is another way of saying primates workers. this is someone in the prime -- of saying prime age workers. this is someone in the prime of their career. we want security, we want to that people. a legal immigration process is a better way of doing that than having people show up and say border patrol, come get me. that is the current system for many people coming across the border. host: for those wanting to come legally, who does the vetting? guest: a combination of the

department of homeland security and the state department with health -- with help from the fbi and the national security apparatus feeding into that system. if you are coming from china you will be vetted by the state department at a consulate. if you have a sponsor in the united states department of homeland security will be investing them at the same time. host: this is from jodi in north carolina. independent line. caller: i have an issue. as a choctaw indian i have been here, my family has been here generations. my question is when the 1924 at was created, where those people who was creating that act, were they immigrants? or were they just here? were they indians that were already here or were they immigrants? the thing people are missing is the government and everybody who is putting forth these different

types of immigration border security and things like that are immigrants as well. what needs to be done is if they are so concerned about immigration and the border is stop allowing people to have children and for anyone who was native who are here infringing on their freedoms and their ability to be free and move around. eventually everybody be pushed out and it will no longer be an american country where people like myself and other people as europeans who came over as immigrants generations, we will all be pushed out in this country will then become mexico or china. this is the only country who has a military were all walks of life are involved in the military. host: jodi has put a lot out there for the guest. guest: the immigration act of 1924 is created by people who are descendants of immigrants to this land. these are all u.s.-born people at the time.

their parents or grandparents came as english or german immigrants. there is a hypocrisy in that. i will exclude everyone who came after me type of attitude. they had an explicitly racial goal. they saw their mission as preserving the racial stock of america. i do not think that is the thing that motivates many people anymore when it comes to this. it is certainly the case that historically that is a major motivating factor. now if you look back, this is the second founding of the united states when you're talking about the immigration act of 1924. everything before was the national -- waters the natural growth of our pot -- everything before it was the natural growth of our process.

everything after that was this artificial process. we would have a different country in a more diverse country. i do not think that is a bad thing. we have a history of assimilation that continues to this day that i think would be the envy of the world and is the envy of the world. host: we have a viewer who asked you about your rspective on why house speaker johnson and other republicans said no to what he described as the strongest bipartisan approach to immigration. guest: is an excellent question. i do not know the full story. the speaker says it was not strong enough for him. he has his own plan that would restrict immigration across the southern border as well as the temporary legal migration paths the president has created by executive order that allow certain people to fly legally on a temporary basis from cuba,

haiti, nicaragua, and venezuela. that was a redline for the president. he says if we get rid of those temporary legal paths those people will show up at the border. that was the reason the president rejected his plan. now it is just a standoff between two people with two plans. that is why you are supposed to have a bipartisan plan -- a bipartisan negotiation to come together and enact those. that is what the senate tried to do. the house had no. host: one of the features was raising the standard for asylum. you think that is a good approach? guest: no. if you focus on the border, i think the legal immigration system gets ignored. if you make it more costly to claim asylum orban asylum or save cannot apply for asylum or say you are much more likely to be deported if you request asylum, that creates more work

for the border patrol. then people are not going to turn themselves in anymore and will try to evade detection and run around the border patrol. border patrol will be in car chases chasing people all over. we saw that under title 42 when asylum was banned for everyone. it was a chaotic mess. after title 42 went away the number it be patients of border patrols went down 80% since the high -- the number of evasions of border patrols went down 80% since their high. the people we should be mostly concerned about, the people trying to evade detection, that has gone down as a result of getting rid of title 42. there is a benefit to security when you have people willing to turn themselves in to the border patrol. host: let's hear from carol in california. you're on with david bier of the

cato institute. caller: trump keeps bragging about the wonderful wall he built to keep people out. then why are so many people coming in? i don't get it. thank you. guest: is a great question. over 500 miles of border wall built by president trump, a lot of it with the department of defense, pentagon money he moved over to fund that border wall project. that was one of the major reasons president biden cancel that project, because it took pentagon money and moved it to build the border wall. the reason it has been ineffective is all the reasons you would expect. people cut through the wall. you can buy a couple hundred dollar piece of equipment from home depot and cut through any

of these border walls in two minutes and be across. people can buy a $10 ladder and climb over the wall. where they can just go around it to the parts that do not have a wall and that is easy. if all else fails you can just knock over the border wall, which we have seen happen as well. it has been totally ineffective, it is been a gigantic waste of taxpayer money. it is unfortunate he wasted so much. $15 billion on this project that is essentially the bridge to nowhere that benefits no one. i think having spent that money in a better way would have improved the security of the united states, as opposed to just waste the taxpayer dollars. host: we have set aside a line for immigrants and that is where yolanda is in virginia. caller: i want to say you have a wonderful program.

i am an immigrant. i went to a third country rate weight for several years -- i went to a third country where we had to wait for several years. we had to have a physical, an x-ray. we had to have someone in the u.s. make themselves responsible for us financially. i believe there are laws in the books that are not enforced. i do not believe this chaotic immigration is good for the country. i do not agree with the prior caller who said it was easier. it is also easier to steal instead of work for your food. as to earlier immigrants, i believe there was a welfare system so the people coming in were not a burden for those already here. i have a question. how many of those illegal aliens

coming to the border are people with a level of education that would be an asset to this country? how many of the 9 million jobs you're talking about are for those that those coming across the border would be able to take? how many workers in the u.s. are having to have two jobs to be able to make ends meet or how many have dropped out of the workforce? host: thank you. guest: the employment rate for prime age workers has almost never been as high as it is now. the reason the rate has gone down is because of retirees, not because of people dropping out of the labor force. the only other time was in the late 1990's when we had an employer -- a higher employment rate than we do right now. in terms of the types of jobs

being advertised, about two thirds of them do not require a college degree. there is a significant amount of demand for workers who are going to be doing construction, agricultural work, work in meatpacking and processing plants, landscaping. these are the types of jobs immigrants can immediately show up and start contributing to these countries. in terms of the welfare state, the welfare state is restricted for green card holders. more than five years you have to wait in order to become eligible for any of the means tested public benefits programs in this country. you also have to work to obtain eligibility for social security or other retiree benefits. there are restrictions in place. i do not think they go far enough. i think we can go further in terms of restricting welfare.

the states and localities have expanded the welfare state in a number of ways that i do think create perverse incentives. i do not like what new york has done of the shelter system, saying we will put up anyone who shows up in the city in a hotel room. they will learn quickly and they are learning that is not a good approach to managing migration. that is a small minority of the people who have shown up. about 60,000 people in the newark shelter system. we have had 3.5 million people who have crossed the border and been released into the united states. the idea that this is a significant portion is wrong. it is an important consideration nonetheless. localities and governments should do better when it comes to making sure the fiscal benefits are seen by u.s. border workers. host: the caller talked about sponsorship. that is one of the categories to

be eligible fogreen card. we will show you some of the other categories. this is jeannie in virginia. independent line. caller: i guess you can hear me. host: we can hear you. caller: i have three points to make. one, i never hear anything about the effects of immigration on the environment, such as with more growth you will need more loss of farmland, wild areas, open space, more pollution. two, you do not need a wall, you do not need a physical barrier to keep immigrants out. just denial of services, which nobody's going to do because it is "inhumane." that is the one thing that would definitely stop immigration. if they came here, no school, no education and no health care.

three, nongovernmental organizations take the place of welfare. the government funds nongovernment organizations and it goes directly to the immigrants. thank you. guest: on the environment, if you look at the last 120 years, you can see the amount of forest and wildland has increased in the united states. we are producing more food unless land than we have ever produced before. the other point about losing land in general. the united states has one of the lowest population densities of any country in the world. the idea this is going to be the thing that tips our environment into negative territory -- i'd just do not believe it. we have a lot of land in this country.

most of the people recently have been moving to cities, so we are seeing less growth in our rural areas. rural areas are seeing population decline where urban areas are increasing. we are expanding the amount of free land in our country. in terms of the second part, we are coming back to the welfare question. these are important questions. i would restrict the welfare state much more than we have. if you look at a lot of the problems that are happening with illegal immigration and the people coming across, the reason why they are ending up in shelters, the reason why these nongovernmental organizations are helping them arrange transportation and all of the rest is because they did not have the opportunity did -- they did not have the opportunity to come legally. they had no ability to lineup transportation and jobs and housing in advance because when you get to the border, you have

no idea, are you going to be expelled, are you going to be deported. all of these questions are not answerable. when you are released you are not authorized to work immediately. you might have a year process to get a work permit if you apply for asylum, if you are eligible to apply for asylum. those are important considerations when talking about what we are seeing from illegal immigration. we have lots of problems. we can make those problems less acute by having a legal immigration process that allows people to lineup transportation and housing and jobs in advance so they come in as contributors as opposed to people who will be needing benefits. host: you can see more of our guests work at cato.org. david bier serves as the immigration studies associate director. thanks for giving us your time.

in about half an hour we'll will be joined by robert woodson will continue on with our series on black history month. his research into crime in the cities and how to stop it. until then, open forum. if you want to participate (202) 748-8001 for republicans, (202) 748-8000 democrats, and independents (202) 748-8002 up start making those calls now. we will take them when "washington journal" continues. >> in the weeks that lie ahead come the famous and influential men and women who occupy those seats will have a lot to say about the view for society in which we view today and his solutions for the ills of our time. >> saturday at 7:00 eastern american history tv will air the tinpot series free to choose featuring the milton freeman.

this first aired on public television in 1980. the freemans also wrote a best-selling companion book. programs in the series take us to locations important to the u.s. and world economies. the freemans advocate free-market principles and limited government intervention in the economy and social policy. other topics include welfare, education, equality, and inflation. watch free to choose saturdays at 7:00 eastern on american history tv on c-span2. >> up-to-date in the latest in publishing with book tv's podcasts about books. with current nonfiction book releases blessed -- current nonfiction book releases plus bestseller list. you can find about books on c-span now, our free mobile app, or wherever you get your podcasts.

>> for c-span's voices 2024, we are asking voters what issue is most important to you in this election and why? >> the most important issue is immigration. >> economics and the deficit. >> homelessness is an issue that needs to be addressed. host: we invite you to share your voice by going to our website, spc-span voices 2024.

providing leadershipvi trainingl assistance and access to capital so that they can take a program

that affects 10 people and spreads it to 100. and then grow them from within. host: speak of capital, how is the woodson center funded? guest: funded by private donations. we have thousands of individual donors, small donors, larger donors. so it's all private. and we're really happy with the support we're getting for the work that we're doing. host: we'll talk about that work in just a second. i want to talk about your book, though, "red, white and black: rescuing american history from revisionists and race hustlers." what prompted you to write that book? guest: i think it was in response to hanna nicole jones' 2019 book, "1619", when she disparaged the country, said america should be defined not by 1776, the signing of the declaration of independence, but when the first slaves arrived and her conclusion was that america is incurably racist and

that all white people are villains and all black people are victims. and so we wanted to mobilize black scholars and activists, not to offer a counterargument, but to offer a counter inspirational narrative. so we talked about -- telling about slavery in defining america. no one wants to be defined by the worst of what we were in the past. so we wanted to tell the complete story of black america's experience, not how we suffered under slavery and jim crow but how we achieved resilience in the process of it. so the book tells courageous stories of how blacks overcame slavery -p in jim crow and how we prospered in the midst of oppression and the best resistance to oppression is performance. so we have some exciting

chapters that document our ability to achieve. when whaoeupts were at their worst, we were at our best. we built hotels, railroads. in this book we talk about the resurrection of black america. no the just crucifixion. host: how much of the concept of america's history with slavery is -- should be taught or at least should be focused on? guest: i think we should -- it has been underreported, i agree with them on that score. we should be talking about slavery. but that's like just talking about crucifixion and leaving it there. you got to talk about resurrection, not just crucifixion. and so what we've done is offer an inspirational alternative that talks about how some blacks are born slaves and died millionaires. how when we were denied access to hotels, we built our own. we even built our own railroad in ballot, maryland, in 1868

when we were fired from the dock. we went into our own sources of capital in the churches and our burial societies. and so the endless stories of how we achieved in the face of oppression and not just became victims. so it's a very inspirational -- we've developed curriculum from the book that's been downloaded 150,000 times since its publication. the book sold out the first four weeks it was published. very re does a book of essays sell out and that's the thirst there is among the american public for honest, complete inspirational stories about how you achieve. in other words, people are motivated to change when they are shown victories that are possible. and not injuries to be avoided. so this is what our focus is,

it's been very well received. host: as far as black history month is concerned, i was going to ask if you have a favorite period or what do you think stands out as an important thing to know? guest: this is the only place in the world where someone could be born a slave and died a millionaire. like robert smalls. from south carolina. he was working on a southern ship, supply ship. and he and six of his crew members, when they -- the ship's master went for dinner, he stole the ship, picked up his family members, and then they maneuvered past five garcons and turned the ship over -- garrisons and turned the ship over to the navy and president lincoln celebrated him throughout and robert small was the first commissioned officer in the navy. and after the war was over, he

became a very wealthy businessman and went back and purchased a plantation of which he was a slave and took in the destitute wife and children of the slave master and because she was delusional, he permitted her to sleep in her bedroom. that is an act of radical grace. and there are endless other examples of the 13, the golden 13. in 1943, blacks were not naval officers. so eleanor roosevelt persuaded her husband to train them. so the navy was going to give these 16 college-trained black men in eight weeks what they gave 16 weeks to white cadets. when these brothers found out what the deal was, they covered their windows of their barracks and stayed up and studied all night and when they were tested, they scored in the 09th percentile -- 90th percentile. so the navy said they cheated.

the navy retested them individually. they scored in the 39rd percent -- 93rd percentile. that score today stands as the highest anyone ever achieved today. so to me this demonstrates that the best defense against disrespect is superior performance. host: robert woodson our guest at 10:00. if you want to ask him questions it's (202) 748-8000 for democrats, (202) 748-8001 for republicans, independents, (202) 748-8002. black voters, if you want to ask our guest a question, (202) 748-8003. you can always use that number too to text us if you wish. if you look at the issue, what our organization does, and crime in communities, what are the root causes, typically? guest: i think, first of all, i can tell you what is not. it is not systemic racism. nor is it a legacy of slavery or

jim crow. that is just not true. what is is when, in the 1960's, with the families being destroyed and fatherhood. black america, our scholars looked at the state of the black family after slavery. they looked at six plantations. about 75% of all slave families had a man and a woman raising children. the nuclear family continued for a hundred years after that. in 1930 to 1940, when racism was enshrined in law, we have the highest marriage rate, elderly people could walk safely in their communities without fear of being assaulted by their grandchildren. children were not shot in their cribs. but all of this changed in the 1960's when the government, after the civil rights act was passed, and the government entered and it decimated those institutions that created railroads and hotels and

schools, those what we call mediating structures that stand in between individuals, they were decimated by the 1960's. when you separate work from income, when mothers were paid -- when they had children, you know, so you -- that's when the crime rate began to soar, at the point of the 1960's. until today. because you've got the destruction of the family, the core values that used to define black america. that's what's under attack and that's the only way it can be fixed. it is not a government problem, it is a moral and spiritual crisis that results in people losing respect for life. when you lose respect for life, you will take your own or someone else's. that's why the suicide rate is highest among upper income whites and homicide is the

leading cause of death of children. so it's a lack of meaning and content that's missing and that's the only cause of it. and the solution is there as well. host: you said it wasn't racism. you said it wasn't jim crow laws. how did you come to that conclusion, though? guest: because i was born in 1937. in a low-income black neighborhood in south philadelphia. during that period of time, elderly people could walk safely. children were not -- never heard of a gun fire all the time from when i was in school. i in her heard of children -- i never heard of children being killed in their crib. more blacks are killed today in one year than was killed in the south over a 50-year period of lynchings. these are inconvenient truths that we have to confront. and that problem can only be

solved internally. it's not going to be solved by making white people more fair and just. it's going to be solved by addressing the crisis of values within the community and we at the woodson center have successful models of when you approach the problem of violence and despair by re-engaging people and taking responsibility for themselves and embracing supportive values, restoring families. when you have -- we've got proof that once you engage these communities, they can take some of these old values and apply it to a new reality. host: our guest is the founder and president of the woodson center, robert woodson. our first call comes to you from larry. democrats line from maryland. you're on with our guest. good morning. caller: good morning. i have two questions. or two comments.

the first question was with regards to some of the political views about racism in america. i'm an african-american man myself. and i hear mr. woodson advocate that communities were able to rise up and they were able to build themselves and achieve things. however, racism is what caused a community within tulsa to become completely burned down. it was called black wall street. and they did exactly what mr. wilson is advocating can be -- woodson is advocating can be done but racism is the cause of it being completely destroyed and annihilated. also, he made a point earlier about commissioned officers in the united states armed services. and what he conveniently did not indicate or tell is that the class of officers that he's referring to were serving in a segregated army and those officers, although they were commissioned, were not commissioned like their white counterparts, nor were they accepted as fully commissioned

officers within the armed services. so i've been aware of mr. woodson's work. he's been around since the 1980's. he was controversial then. th*euts somewhat of a travesty to celebrate black history with a conservative that holds views that are held in miniscule opinion within the black community. host: we'll leave it there. guest: first of all, let me correct youy. yes, the black officers served, the black panthers who were -- or blank tankers, the tuskegee airmen fought and they understood that they were fighting in a segregated army and that many didn't have authority over white men. but we accepted that reality and we fought courageously to do that. but let me also correct you. you always point to the one instance where the black wall street in tulsa was destroyed. but it was also rebuilt.

but you're also ignoring the fact, the question is, if racism were the principle, why in the bronzeville section of chicago during the 1919, there was 731 black-owned businesses. we had $is00 million in real estate assets. there was another black wall street in north carolina. the black bottom in detroit. we had grand movie theaters, we had performing arts theaters. we had a lot of things that we built ourselves and so -- but to point to one, tulsa was burned down, there were others all over this nation. so we were never defined by what white people permitted us to do or did not permit us to do. so that is just patently untrue. it's most important when you're talking about, what do you propose to do to solve the

problem? we at the woodson center have demonstrated by investing in these values that communities can be restored. we have examples of communities being restored by concentrating on self-development. host: from our republican line, louisiana. this is mary. caller: yes, hello? host: you're on. go ahead. caller: ok. mr. woodson, it is such a pleasure to see you. my heart just gets so glad when they have you on. because you are another black person who is not afraid to speak the truth. and what's wrong is that we got too many black people in this country that the democrats have actually, i mean, just blowed their mind, messed them up, they keep them hating because of slavery. but the whole truth is being

here about slavery. because black people won't do what i did. i keep a library card. i went to the library and i checked out books and read history. and that was all the way back to 1619 and i know you know what that's about. but what i'm saying is that the democrat party found out years ago, if you keep a person down, you can control them. they also found this out. about black people. if you tell them you'll giving them something, they'll vote for you. but you know what, mr. woodson, i was so glad -- and then black people don't know, many, many black people owned slaves. a lot of them had been slaves themselves. i love to read. but the average black person -- i don't like reading.

but, see, the democrats know that the average black people is not going to try to find out the truth. host: ok, mary. you put out a lot for our guest. guest: let me just respond to what you're saying and thank you and to the other. in our book, we chronicle the fact, we support that in 1919, there were five black high schools in new york, baltimore, washington, atlanta and new orleans. they had crumbling buildings, overcrowding, half the budget of white schools. yet every one of those black high schools outtested every white school in those cities if. we could achieve those great academic accomplishments in the presence of jim crow, why are we failing today with systems run by our own people. it has nothing to do with racism.

it has everything to do with developing effective strategies that serve to uplift our people by making them agents of their own uplift. that's the message that we've got to commit. we communicate successfully to our thousands of grassroots leaders that your destiny is determined not by what somebody outside has done to you, but what you do for yourself. host: from kansas. this is ed, independent line. caller: good morning. my blood boils every time you have this guy on. last year you guys had him on on martin luther king's birthday and he has absolutely nothing in common with dr. martin luther king. dr. martin luther king said, before the march on washington, and i quote, we're going to get our check. and he was talking about reparations. now you have him on during black history month. to me he's nothing but a black

apologist for the white racism that continues to this day in this country. thank you. guest: that's your opinion but that doesn't square with the thousands of grassroots leaders who support the woodson center. we have a reputation, we have helped end gang violence in one of the most notorious communities. we've worked with timmy gray, a public housing resident lead that are sent 680 kids from one public housing project to college. that's reducing teen pregnancy and increasing college completion rates. so our record is clear and that's why i always ask people to judge me new york city by my rhetoric, -- judge me, not by my rhetoric but judge me by my record. if you go on the website of the woodson center, you can compare what we have accomplished based

upon what you witnessed, versus listening to an attack from someone who, you know, has nothing to offer but criticism. host: since you brought it up, the idea of reparations. california, some state legislatures there are making a -- legislators there are making a big effort. to what degree do you agree there should be reparations made? guest: first of all, who pays? you had free blacks who owned slaves. there were five native american tribes that owned thousands of slaves. the sons and daughters of those black and indian slave holders, do they pay? you know, i mean, it's such a ridiculous argument. we've had $22 trillion in the last 60 years that the government spent in what some considered reparations in the way of poverty programs. where 70 cents of every $1 did not go to the poor, it went to those who served the poor. and these professional service

providers have not reached programs, solutions are solvable, which problems are solvable, but which problems are fundable. so money is not the issue. look at lottery winners. 70% of lottery winners end up going either on drugs or -- the issue is not money. the issue is the crisis in values, the crisis in opportunity. and you ask yourself, look at nigerians. they come here, they're a small percentage of the population, but they have higher incomes, better education than whites. second generation caribbeans have the same experience. they outperform even asians. so do white people make a distinction between a black african or a black -- no. it has to do with the values and the torments of the people suffering the problem that determines their outcome. host: from brady, brady in north carolina.

republican line. hi. guest: hey, mr. woodson. it's good to hear from you. see you on tv. you need to be on there more often. could you do me a favor? it was on c-span the other day that the k.k.k. was founded by democrats. and just so happens the guy that's on there today fact checked it and said that was a lie. so did the democrats come up with the k.k.k. and jim crow laws? guest: yes, sir, they did. and it's very interesting. hanna nicole jones and all of the essays, they never mentioned the fact that racism and jim crow was created by democrats in the south. they were dixiecrats for a long

time. all of them were demings. but the -- all of them were democrats. but the problems confronting america today have nothing to do with political ideologies. if you go to any low-income community, you cannot tell which political party is in place. the problem is not political. so i don't think the answers are going to be found debating that. the question is, if this is political, why are poor blacks suffering in cities run by their own people for the past 50 years? it is not the sex or race of the rulers that determines the outcomes. it has to do with the rules of the game. and the blacks are taking over social systems that are hostile to the interests of their own people, then it doesn't matter. and the other question is, the silence on part of the civil rights leaders and black political figures when migrants

are coming into some of these cities like boston and new york and they are taking over facilities like a recreation center in rocksberry where low-income black parents have asked for 10 years to get this recreation center improved. and the city ignored them. but now they can improve it to to move migrants and now young people can't use that recreational facility to practice baseball or basketball. and so where is the voices of opposition coming from the civil rights community when the rights of low-income blacks are being usurped by migrants coming from across the borders? but these are kind of questions that need to be addressed. host: i'll just show you the website that i showed the viewer about the democratic party founding the k.k.k. when it comes to your work at the woodson center, when you see

issues of low crime, one of the things you highlighted is you go to -- and find those people that are doing something about it and you back them and what they're doing. can you elaborate on that? guest: yes. the sickest part of the body draws the strongest antibodies. if you cut yourself, healing begins. neighborhoods are organized like that. there are healing agents within the community. for instance, there were 53 murders in this community. 16 young people. we identify the alliance of concerned men, this is a group of ex-offenders who christ touched their heart and they became transformed. they went into that community and brought these warring factions to my office. down on dupont circle in washington. and we had a meal for them, they're eating together,

drinking together, no the when they're eating. long story short, because these older men had moral authority and social trust of the kids, they listened to them and the kids said, no one ever asked us to be peaceful. but because of this mentorship and this trust that they had, they were able to shake hands and the housing authority director was there and they were hired to restore and remove graffiti, plant grass and rebuild the community that they were destroying. and as a consequence, for 12 years we didn't have a single crew-related murder in this community and these young men became mentors to the younger kids and football coaches. and so this benning terrace was profiled on public television. this is an example of when you go into the community suffering a problem and you harness these healing agents that are in the

community, provide them and some of these young with money so they can work full time at mentors, then we put them in schools with the result that the crime in the schools were down, enrollment increased and we exported it to milwaukee, wisconsin, to dallas, texas, and also to baltimore as well. host: our guest, the founder and president of the woodson center. also his book, "red, white and black: rescuing american history from revisionists and race hustlers." this is jay from south carolina, democrats line. caller: yea, how are you doing, pedro? host: fine, you're on with our guest. go ahead. caller: yeah, how are you doing, mr. woodson? you doing all right? guest: i'm doing fine. caller: ok. it's a lot to unpack. if there's any way that i can perhaps carry on this conversation with you at a later date. because you provided a lot of

information. but what comes in the question, is this a sample? when i talk about, you know, africans and the diaspora, you know, that's been tpwraout this country against their -- brought to this country against their will, when we talk about them and their achievements, is it a sample or a population? meaning that this system is set up for a few of us to advance, but overall many of us are still living in the ripple effects. it's like the anchor effect. if the anchor of slavery were still living in the ripple effects of it. now with that said, i'm familiar with civilizations. i'm familiar with we are the creators and the architects of the education system, the medical field, science, history, mathematics, all of these things. all of these things we are the foundational structures of

society. on a global scale. but with that said, i do not want to minimize what racism is and what it has done. it's a global system power dynamic. based on the genetic survival of the europeans and the descendants of kwraourpbs, but that doesn't -- europeans, but that doesn't take away from the fact that in 639a.d., that's when the arab muslim slave trade took place. i don't want to sit here and say that, well, these white folks are bad and they're all bad. no, it's a lot more nuanced. but what i'm not going to do and what we shouldn't do is try to minimize the fact that when we see a lot of this negative behavior within our brothers and sisters, it is a direct result of the fact that our identities were taken away. host: caller, this is jay -- guest: that's -- unfortunately that is just a myth.

like i said, all you have to do is go back in recent history and look at some of these same neighborhoods. again, i use myself as an example. i grew up in the depths of segregation in philadelphia, pennsylvania. but we had values. we had standards. and we could walk at night. people could walk at night in the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's. we could walk the streets at night and never heard of a child being shot in a crib. and so this orgy of self-destruction that's taken place in the black community, we should not tkhraoud ourselves into -- delewd ourselves into believing that somehow somebody on the outside has the ability to change condition that's going to result in our conditions being improved. dr. king said it, that we must

reach down into the deep, dark regions of our soul and sign and ink our own emancipation proclamation and not wait for anybody to deliver us from circumstances created by us. that's the biggest delusion that i can think of. host: in ohio, this is from nicole. nicole's on our independent line. you're on with our guest. caller: good morning. there are so many things to say about what you have said this morning. you keep speaking about when you were born. since you were born, immigration has happened. and i feel like that has been the biggest down fall. the people who showed moral authority in our communities left after integration. they were there to guide everyone else and to hold everyone to a standard that we followed for so many years during and following slavery. also, we have tried, we have at

every turn been knocked down. more recently, there are three venture capitalist women, they didn't compare, they don't compare to the venture capitalists given to other groups. but they were targeting minority black women and with the supreme court passing the affirmative action at harvard and north carolina, they are attacking these women for wanting to provide money for startup businesses. then you have the birthing centers in alabama. these three black doctors wanted to open up birthing centers because the mortality rate, the mother mortality rate of black women is three times that of whites. it's higher than what it should be in the industrialized nation. and they've closed these down. the american medical association

of alabama has closed these birthing centers down. they have -- it's like they want us to fail. they want us to die. so when we try so many times, society has prevented it from happening, they do not want black people to not be dependent on the rest of society. host: that's nicole in ohio. guest: i just think, holding these kind of attitudes only hurts to restrict yourself. president douglas said that the worst time on the plantation was christmas because slaves were given off six days. but they wanted -- the slave masters wanted blacks to interpret freedom through self-indulgence. so they supplied free rum and so that they wanted them to compete with one another. because they wanted blacks to interpret freedom to be defined as self-indulgence. and some slaves went along with that. but frederick douglass said he and others used that same time

to learn to read, to hire themselves out so they could earn money to purchase their freedom. they used that time to visit families. we are never defined by external circumstances, no matter who imposes these external restrictions. we've got the power to change ourselves. but when we concentrate on the external barriers that we face, we will never confront the enemy within. you know, the victimizer might have knocked you down. slavery, jim crow. but if you wait for your oppressor to come and lift you up, then they ought to need to take you to a mental institution. host: let's go to kathy in north carolina, republican line. caller: good morning, how are you guys? guest: just fine. host: go ahead, you're on. caller: i'm calming about, i am a white person and i am very

resentful of how i'm being termed as a racist. the color of your skin has nothing to do with who you are and what comes out of your mouth. and until you quit resenting me for something that i had nothing to do with, this problem is not going to go away. as a white person, i am furious at the black communities for allowing yourself to be kept in an enslavement and in a plantation house. your plantation managers are now black people in power. because they don't want to do anything to help you out. they talk a good talk, but they don't do the walk. and every time a child in chicago dies, i get upset because it's not necessary. and until we stop letting these people divide us and bring us

together as a nation and people to help each other, i would love to see the black community leaders that go in and get rid of the elements that are bad in this country, like the drug abuser -- the drug housers, i mean, the drug dealers and you've got to get rid of the criminal element that is hurting the black communities. guest: i totally agree with you. the biggest challenge we're facing today is not race. it is a moral and spiritual freefall that is destroying our children. the highest rate for death among black is homicide, young people. among appalachian whites, it's prescription drugs. among silicon valley whites and asians, their suicide rate for their teens is six times the national average. so what we're doing at the woodson center, we have a group

called the voices of black mothers united. these are the mothers who lost children to homicide and they've come together to give aid and comfort and to work with the police to reduce violence. but they're also reaching out to mothers from these other two groups and what they call the mothers consortium. because when somehow our children have a hole in their hearts that is causing them to feel as if life is not worth living, if you devalue life, then will you take your own or take someone else's. they're different sides of the same coin. and that's why it's important for us to move beyond this issue of race. america doesn't have a race problem, it has a grace problem. host: caroline in charlotte, north carolina. democrats line. you're next up. hi. caller: good morning. i was listening to the show and mr. woodson is going back to like 1919. even here in north carolina, durham, but i am a child that

was born during the segregation part of america. i was a product of integration. i was a product of the civil rights movement and i have never, ever made the excuse for myself, but i do see a difference in coming up during jim crow, when all the communities and people leaned on each other and raised each other up and they had a lot of pride. that was community, ok. and i tkpwrao up when they -- i grew up when they had urban renewal. i grew up before projects even existed. so when urban renewal came through and destroyed the black community, which community means more than just a place to live, and put projects in, they destroyed the foundation of the black community. even to the day we're trying to recoup from urban renewal. and one thing that is very debtor member to the black

community -- detrimental to the black community and any other community is the fact that drugs came in shortly after that. we're dealing with a crime epidemic that is produced by drugs. and he's an apologist for -- if it wasn't for the civil rights movement, you would not be on tv today. i grew up during that time. i grew up when we were completely controlled by the white population. there was no black college. forever him to say we were better off then, no, you can look at the economic stats on that. because black people, even though with had our own communities during that time, we were extremely poor and had no power in this country. martin luther king brought back the civil rights movement, we got the voting rights act. we couldn't even vote what is wrong with you? host: ok. guest: you're right. but i also agree that during that time, our communities were safer. and you're right about urban renewal. urban renewal came in and destroyed durham, north carolina, they took out 100

black businesses. it took out 6000 residents -- residences. they had eminent domain, they took out private-owned houses by blacks. and replaced them with public housing. that was a major structural change, that a lot of our politicians at the time went along with it. if you are running an agency that is destroying black properties and neighborhoods, it doesn't matter that you are a black person running it. so you're actually right and this is what we write in our books too. that the problems facing us have to do with structural changes that destroyed institutions that served the black community and kept us safe. host: she had said, even if it wasn't for the civil rights movement and voting rights act, you wouldn't be here, sitting

here talking to me. guest: that's true and that's an essential part of, we needed the civil rights act, i'm not saying that we didn't. but it's only part of it. that's only part of the solution. the other one has to do with what's happening internally. we gave up a lot in return for the civil rights movement. i was against forced busing for integration. because in fact i had this debate. i think the opposite of segregation is desegregation. when jews were denied and blacks were denied access to university of pennsylvania andujar srard, they -- and harvard, they wanted both. but a lot of us didn't do that. we left our own institutions, our own businesses, our own organizations and went into the other and i think that that was a fundamental mistake that i pushed back against that.

host: joanna in washington, d.c. come running a little short on time. caller: mr. woodson, i'm ashamed of the rhetoric you are spewing. stop acting as if reese isn't an issue, because it is. race is an issue when we are applying for jobs come when they are valuing our mortgages. race is an issue. if you want young by people to pull themselves out of violence they are in, it is not about police, it is about group causes compete is about programs. please don't get on television acting as if race is not an issue, because as the woman said, if you were a black man 80, 60 years ago, you wouldn't be able to talk to a white is in -- white person, ok? there is violence in the community and there was violence back then, but we didn't have to worry about each other, we had to worry about white people. not all white people, but racists decided that every time

we get a leg up, that they want to then put something on our net. to have a black man like you coming on television and having the nerve to say that race isn't an issue is disgusting, it's not christlike, because you know what the truth is. host: ok, joanna, thank you. guest: the question is when you look at the problems facing -- i spent a lot of my time, most of my time in low income black neighborhoods plagued with drugs and violence and working with those leaders there, and you ask yourself if all white people were to go to canada or europe tomorrow, tell me what problem that would address. what models -- we have walking

around d.c. with nine arrests for carjacking. we have 13 euros girls locked up -- 13-year-old girls locked up for robbery. this is a growing crisis and we are not going to solve it by waiting for white people to change or saying that our problems are related. if we didn't do it in segregation when we weren't in this or achieve self-destruction during the time -- this or g of self-destruction during the time of slavery and jim crow, why are we embracing it now? more blacks were killed by other blacks in one year that were killed and 50 years in the south by the klan. tell me what white people can do to address that problem. that is an internal problem that must be addressed. let me jus tend -- when you have models for young people like actor mike cannon, children by

12 women, betty mills having a joint baby shower can what kind of message are we sending to our young children that we celebrate and permit this kind of outrage to occur? where is the shame? i don't want to hear anymore about what white people do. like people need to stop whining about white people -- black people need to stop whining about white people and come together and talk about how we can apply old values that enabled us to survive and thrive during slavery and jim crow. how do we take those values and apply it to the present-day situation? the woodson center has in the 3000 groups we support around the nation, we have demonstrated when you take those values and apply them today, that communities can be restored. i can take you to different places where community has been restored because of the embrace of the values that are

life-affirming. we are going to again show you a pathway to prosperity. but it won't come by whining and complaining about what white folks have done to us or demanding that they give us reparations. all of this foolishness is worthless and it is a waste of time, and i won't participate in any of this. if that makes me insensitive, i plead guilty. host: robert woodson, founder and president of the woodson center. find the work at th ewoodsoncenter.org. robert woodson, thanks for your time. we are about to go to an event sponsored by the center for strategic and international studies. it takes a look at relations between the united states and pakistan. it will feature the pakistani ambassador to the united states. that conversation and that event about to start momentarily.

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> we are waiting on discussion on the relations between the u.s. and pakistan. we will hear from pakistan's ambassador to washington, masood khan. you are watching live coverage on c-span.

host: and then state sales taxes, 46% saying overall they think that what they pay is fair. republicans, 42%. democrats, 52%. that is from the associated press. when asked about that -- when they asked, those categories if taxes were too high, here is how they responded for

be a part of the conversation.

>> "washington journal" continues. host: to send us a text during open forum it is (202) 748-8003. you can also post your thoughts on the social media sites at facebook.org/c-span or @cspanwj. president biden plans to head to california to soak up were cash for his reelection bid. the democratic national committee announced that collected $42 million in contributions in january from 422,000 donors. mr. biden into january with $132 million of cash on hand, the highest total amassed by any democratic candidate at this point in the cycle. his campaign manager called the haul an undisputed show of strength to start the election year. this turbine it will travel to california for several days --

mr. biden will travel to california for several days. he had a conversation with reporters. the headline coming out of that, biden would meet with johnson "if he has anything to say." the president talking with reporters. there is a bit of that conversation. [video clip] >> i would be happy to meet him if he has anything to say. >> [indiscernible] >> they are making a big mistake not responding. the way they are walking away from nato. the way they are walking away from our opposition. it is shocking. i've never seen anything like this.

i am not sure anything will change. >> [indiscernible] >> we already have sanctions but we are considering additional sanctions. host: that is the president from yesterday. we will start off the open forum with boris in tennessee, democrats line. guest: i am very sorry -- caller: i am very sorry. i thought i was trying to catch the guest you had on. host: what were you interested in asking him? caller: but i was interested in is the situation. these are people. we must love them regardless of where they came from and how they got here or whatever. they are good people. i don't know. forgive me for calling so late.

host: that is fine. adam in minnesota. republican line. caller: my question is the marriage visa. what category that is under. number two, is it still under the cap regardless of 3%? host: you'll have to go to the website that is cato.org. the guest has already left us for that segment. angela in massachusetts, independent line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i am very worried. we have a great place right outside of boston. it is a recreational center. it has a swimming pool. it has been situated in rocks buried. what happened is our governor decided to put the migrants there.

these kids who live in the poorest part of boston have no place to go this february school vacation. people in newton, people in brookline are down in aruba with their kids. these children are shut out of their only place to have a good time since february school vacation. the governor is spending $3 million a day to care for these illegals. i live on cape cod. we have two bridges that are almost 90 years old and the infrastructure -- all they do is put maintenance twice a year. i'm afraid these bridges will cave into the cape cod canal someday. this money could go towards fixing these bridges. the federal government will only give us $3 million to keep care of the bridges that are in bad shape. as the tourism grows on the cape, these bridges will just be

with more traffic and more problems and a lot of accidents. host: paulo is next in virginia. democrats line. caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to make a comment on something your guest said. he was saying the process is so hard so people have to go the illegal way. i think there is another right way to do it. if you want something into it the right way, it has to be hard . you have pride in what you are doing. i came here in 2001 looking for a better way. i fell in love with a woman and we follow the process. it was hard. i finally made it. i was here. three years later, three boys, big house. i think the right way to do it is follow the process.

coming illegally hurts everybody , even people from here and people they're trying to come through the border. that is all i wanted to say. host: ivan in virginia. republican line. caller: i'm calling on behalf of myself and the senior citizens. we have a problem with the senators from genia wanting to cut social security -- the senators from virginia wanting to cut social security 25%. i have strokes and i have to depend on that amount of money. we just wanted to send a message to the republicans, they need to get their tails in gear and stay off these vacations and get this economy worked out and put the money they needed back at social security and medicare and quit trying to cut things. if they want to cut things let them cut their own paychecks. host: that is i've been in virginia. the milwaukee journal sentinel

reports wisconsin republicans lost more of their grip on state-controlled legislator after democratic governor tony evers signed into law a new electoral map that reshipped down ballot races. he signed the bill put forward by the gop lawmakers implement a new maps that the democratic governor drew himself that dramatically weakened the advantages republicans have enjoyed since 2011. "it is a new day in wisconsin and today is a beautiful day for democracy. of the 1869 days i've been proud to serve as your governor, few have been as consequential as this one." next up is skip in kansas city. independence line. -- independents line. caller: when did the republican party deteriorate from the party of the elite to a bunch of rabble unable to perform the most mundane task, such as defendant law and democracy.

members of the republican party have no backbone and will not stand up against a tyrant here or in europe. this is not the party of eisenhower, nixon, ford, reagan, george bush, w bush. a bunch of lawbreaking rabble-rouser and do nothing isolationist ms. threats revelation 8 -- misfits, revolutionaries and traitors to the ideas held in our constitution. it appears the party would rather fight and spend blood and treasure on the streets of the united states among themselves rather than defend freedom and defeat a dictator on the soil of europe. host: bronx new york is where noris is. democrats line. caller: what i want to talk about today is the united states. with the border, with mayorkas,

with the countries not financed. the big picture is ukraine. the big picture is ukraine because winter is ending. russians are building up. publicans are holding back the eight to ukraine -- republicans are holding back the aid to ukraine. republicans and russia working together. the senators in the house are still in position. what they are doing, everybody is looking at what is going on in the united states, not what is going on in ukraine. that is why they went home early. they did not want to do that bill.

there -- delay, delay, delay. just like mr. trump. host: that is noris in new york. axios's reporting a group of senate conservatives to manning health. mitch mcconnell -- the full impeachment trial for homeland security secretary. democrats control the process. the impeachment articles are proving to be the next flashpoint for the minority leader. 13 liters planning to send a letter to mitch mcconnell. they democratic effort to dismiss the impeachment articles would be in action rarely contemplated the senators argue and a copy of the letter first obtained by axios. let's hear from ashley in new york. caller: i wanted to make the comment earlier about the immigration individual from the cato institute. he made a statement about 90% of

the the very act of trespassing on someone else's property anywhere else in the country is illegal. if you're willing to commit the crime of crossing the border, then you're not necessarily a good person. he needs to get into the streets of new york, he needs to visit out in the hamptons, which is an easy visit for him, i'm sure, and see the two-tier work force that has been created. paying people cash under the table is what rich people want. they don't want anybody to be a legal immigrant. and the idea that they say that they do is just a big smoke and mirrors thing. keeping this group of people sub serve kwrepbt and -- subservient and in low-paying agricultural jobs, nonunion jobs, that's the whole plan. nobody wants resolve for immigration because then they'll have to pay people a decent wage. so this is about creating a

two-level society. keeping one group of people on that level. host: ok. let's hear from armando in san antonio. republican line. caller: good morning. host: good morning. go ahead. caller: hey. yeah, i wanted -- i just want to know, i want to jump off donald trump's wagon. i've had enough of it. host: ok. shirley is next. south carolina, democrats line. caller: good morning, pedro. i just want to say to the democrats, i want all of you all to get out there and let's vote, vote, vote. i have already voted. this donald trump, never need to see what white house again. who wants somebody in the white house that got three wives, two now, going to church with the bible upside down.

this man don't even know what any kind of religion is. i don't want nobody like that leading me or telling me anything. and when he comes on my television, i turn the channel. so let's get out there and vote and keep this man out of this white house. thank you. host: south carolina's primary takes place later on this week. this is from "the hill." reporting as of today that former president trump holding a 23-point lead over former u.n. ambassador nikki haley, less than a week from the state's republican presidential primary. 58% of likely south carolina republican primary voters say they supported trump while 35% said the same about haley. that's. another 7% of voters said they were undecided and when undecided voters were asked to pick a candidate, mr. trump led 61% to haley's 39%. ron is next. ron in pennsylvania, independent line. caller: good morning. i just have a couple questions.

i'm hoping you can answer about the h.r. 2. whatever happened to it? and was that responsible for the kids in cages and the lost children? host: we've done plenty of segments so i would refer you to the segments we've done on h.r. 2, on immigration policy over the years. and the short-term, over the couple years. you can go to our website at c-span.org and if you type in the search box there, it will show you everything that's done on the floor of the house, done on this program, on other platforms, all that available to you at c-span.org. this is from "the washington post's" business section saying that the u.s. is about to give $1.5 billion in a grant to help build a computer chip plant. the grant formally unveiled yesterday is the third announced part of the chips and science act, a $52 billion program president biden signed in 2022 in hopes to supercharge u.s. manufacturing of semiconductors.

the money will help semiconductor giant global foundries build a large-scale fabrication facility known as a f.a.b. at its headquarters in new york to produce advanced chips not currently made in the united states. host: that's in the business section there. if you go to the business section of the "wall street journal" this morning, their headline there --

host: you can see that at wall street journal $'s webside -- at the "wall street journal's" website. caller: i just want to say that, good morning, and in 2014, president obama requested of congress $4 billion to secure the border, temporary housing for the people coming over and for the law enforcement down there, the border patrol. the republicans wouldn't even bring the bill to the floor. so they say they care about immigration, but had they at least brought that bill to the floor and passed it, we wouldn't be seeing all of these problems today. they were the party of no. they just said, whatever obama brings up we're going to vote no on.

and they're being obstructionists now because we have a new border bill that the senate passed, the congress, if they really cared about the border, if they really cared about this issue, they would pass that bill. i think a week later the congress, the republican congress, passed $180 billion to replace old equipment for companies, but they wouldn't pass $4 billion for the border. and i think they just are on the side of prudent, it's not the same republican party as before. it's more like the tea party. host: sam in massachusetts. independent line. hi. caller: since it's open forum, i just wanted to say about how donald trump left the presidency. and the transfer of power. we didn't get to see him on the helicopter wave good-bye. he left out the back door.

he didn't shake the hand of the new current president. you know, it's just -- it's sad that he can run again the way he left. he lost, he didn't want to admit he lost, he didn't want to shake the hand of the winner, that we do in the u.s.a. we always say, there's a winner and a loser. and he lost. and he doesn't want to admit he lost. that's all i got to say. host: if you want to participate in open forum. speaking of president trump pr*up and the legal decisions about his businesses that took place last week. a follow-up story in the "wall street journal" about ruling happened cuffs when it comes to those businesses. the authors write that on appeal mr. trump has several arguments he can make to attack at least the size and scope of the judge's ruling. close to half of the monetary penalties imposed by the judge

were based on the judge's estimate of how much money tr*up saved by -- trump saved by obtaining cheaper credit. host: jacklin in connecticut. democrat line. caller: good morning. our american troops are stationed in countries. trump says putin should attack nato. trump is treasonous. host: two events to tell you about today. on the networks. if you want to pay attention to

that. right after this program, a discussion taking a look at relationships between the united states and pakista the pakistani ambassador talks about u.s.-pastan relations at an eventosted. you can always go to the website at c-span.org. later on today, at 11:00, a discussion on the topic of affordable housing from governor gianforte will discuss those challenges and solutions. that's hosted by the bipartisan policy center. 11:00 is the time. this network. if you want to watch it here, at the website too available. stanley in florida, independent line. caller: how are you doing? donald trump attacked the capitol, holding 44 police officers were beaten up with trump flags. he sat out there.

they said, we're coming for you. we're going to kick ass and take names. giuliani said trial by combat. and some said we have to fight like hell and they did. they showed it on cnn, the other day it was on cnn. they showed the whole thing and officers were sprayed with bear spray. they were hit over the head with clubs. some of them never will be right. and then they had how he took fake lectures all over the place to go to washington and the show on sunday. what's it called? you know the show i'm talking about? host: i don't know. that's another network's programming. so let's go to dale in maryland, independent line, hi. caller: how are you doing? host: fine, thank you. caller: i'm going to tell you something. this immigration problem is more than just republicans and more than just democrats. the way they talked the last

couple of times over, yes, those bills should have been passed. but the problem is this. if those bills are passed, they set up all these different camps at the border. you still ain't going to stop more of the immigrants coming into this country. now, the basic thing i'm saying is this. now, you shouldn't have -- it's barbaric to have them come over barbed wire but at the same time there should be some kind of consolidation or bipartisan working together to deal with this problem. you got enough land in here to deal with the immigration problem. we can do the same things that we've been doing by processing and making sure they come here legaly, making sure that ones are not coming back. we can give more money to border patrol, all that stuff. to me, it's a situation where everybody's going back and forth, who is responsible, who is not responsible, and nothing's getting done. and the whole situation is getting worse and worse every year.

until we get some commonsense heads on both sides, because it ain't just republicans that are messing this up, it's also democrats messing this up too. and they should basically come to some kind of agreement to basically -- or something to deal with the problem because it's not going to go away. it's going to get worse and worse every year. host: ok, bill is in new york. democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning, pedro. am i on? host: yes, you're on. caller: hi, good morning. i just wanted to say that, one, let's talk about the -- just the reparations, right? there's so much money it seems that they can afford to give out to all these foreign countries, to the immigrants. but as far as the native black americans who have been here and are owed the money, they seem to not want to give that money. and i can't understand why when there are so many other people who have received reparations. especially, i'm sorry to say, our white friends. white friends have been

receiving reparations since the beginning. and i think for us to hold back those old moneys that is owed to these people, to pay to black americans, is really a shame. we should stand up and pay them that money. host: history being played out in the pages of "the washington post" between current president joe biden and former president abraham lincoln. the headline --

host: more there if you want to read that on "the washington post" this morning. let's hear from ralph, democrats line, in tampa, florida, to finish up open forum. caller: i was listening to the people complaining about the immigration and the terrorists. we have not had one terrorist attack by an illegal immigrant. in fact, the way they're dispersed in the united states, the texas governor, which is a republican and the florida governor, which is a republican, loaded them up in buses and airplanes and shipped them up north. and that's how they did this first one in the united states. and yet the republicans are complaining that the democrats are the ones that are holding the immigration line and we're

not doing a good job. the other thing i was talking about, if you're a republican and the n.r.a. wants to donate to your campaigns, i had a republican friend of mine tell me that you democrats want to take away the second amendment. i said, i've never heard any democrat say we want to do away or amend the second amendment. what we say is, we need to do away with assault rifles. when the second amendment was written, there were no assault rifles. they were single-shot weapons. host: ok. ralph in tampa, florida, finishing off this open forum. thanks to all of you who participated. we're continuing on with our black history month series this week. joining us next is robert woodson, he's the author of the book, "red, white and black: rescuing american history from revisionists and race hustlers." we'll talk about his recent piece in the "wall street journal" on reducing crime in

america's cities. a discussion with robert woodson of the woodson center next on "washington journal." ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2024] ♪ >> nonfiction book lovers, c-span has a number of podcasts for you. listen to best selling nonfiction authors and influential interviewers on the after words podcast and on q&a, hear wide-ranging conversationings with nonfiction authors and others who are making things happen. book notes plus episodes are weekly hour-long conversations that feature fascinating authors of nonfiction books on a wide variety of topics. and the about books podcast takes you behind the scenes of the nonfiction book publishing industry with insider interviews, industry updates and best sellers lists. find all of our podcasts by downloading the free c-span now app. or wherever you get your podcasts.

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just look like this. it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work. when citizens are truly informed, our republican thrives. get informed straight from the source. on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are. because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we're joined by robert woodson. he's the founder and the president of the woodson center. also the author of "red, white and black: rescuing american history from revisionists and race hustlers." mr. woodson, thanks forgiving us your time. guest: pleased to be here. host: remind people about the woodson center. what's its purpose? guest: i founded it 43 years ago and it serves to support grassroots leaders. we have 3,500 grassroots leaders in 39 states. we go into these low-income

neighborhoods and we find grassroots leaders who are